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f13.net General Forums => Eve Online => Topic started by: Ratadm on February 09, 2007, 02:23:41 PM



Title: War
Post by: Ratadm on February 09, 2007, 02:23:41 PM
So it looks like eve has the start of a massive war on its hands.  I know I got interested in this game lurking the forums a couple months ago and joined up so I'm curious what you guys thoughts on what appears to be shaping up?

I don't know all the details but I believe BoB is moving in to help LV vs RAGoon and the other alliances attacking Lv and now it appears D2 are going to start making an attack on fountain.   


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on February 09, 2007, 02:47:09 PM
As far as I'm concerned, it'll be interesting to read about, but I'm not so involved in EVE that I'd care about what the alliances are doing.  My eyes cross when I see (and I don't understand the) acronyms y'all use; the more acronyms the less I understand and/or care.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 09, 2007, 02:59:11 PM
More importantly for those of us here: How can we profit from this?  8-)


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on February 09, 2007, 03:06:11 PM
Shrug, this war could be "everyone else" pouncing on BoB now that they don't have any more "developer help", or it could be BoB trying to go out with a bang and a final war (the only way to get rid of the tarnish on their name, which will otherwise be brought up again and again, which CCP wants to avoid), or it could simply be a war just like the others with no relation to the dev stuff.

Profit?  Simple:  resell minerals and war materials.  Put in for Sabre BPO research points with as many agents as you can, heh.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 09, 2007, 03:35:54 PM
My guess is BoB is moving to help LV just to pre-emp the inevitable RedSwarm/BoB conflict.


They can either fight RedSwarm with LV's help, or let LV die then Fight RedSwarm without it. I'm not sure exactly how or where AAA or D2+Friends fit into this, but I'm guessing whatever they do, it will be hostile towards BoB.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 09, 2007, 03:41:03 PM
My guess is BoB is moving to help LV just to pre-emp the inevitable RedSwarm/BoB conflict.


They can either fight RedSwarm with LV's help, or let LV die then Fight RedSwarm without it. I'm not sure exactly how or where AAA or D2+Friends fit into this, but I'm guessing whatever they do, it will be hostile towards BoB.
I'm totally out of my depth here with the politics -- but what if BoB was looking to the North, getting read to expand out there -- and RedSwarm starting gearing for war against BoB, figuring to take them while their attention was divided.

BoB gets wind of this, drops the Northern Campaign (unfortunately, the Northern corps aren't dropping it back) and moves to bloody RedSwarm enough to make them backoff.

Forum drama might have RedSwarm thinking BoB only wins because of Dev support (bad assumptiont here), or BoB might be moving on mere rumors because they want to show everyone they're still strong.

Either way, I don't think BoB planned on a RedSwarm campaign when they were making moves towards the North.

Fuck, I have got to get into the PvP game.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 09, 2007, 03:45:12 PM
I'm thinking BoB never expected RedSwarm to be as effective as it has, or for the LV Coalition (all but dismantled now) to be as ineffective as it has seemingly. Looking at the old archived maps, you see Red space go from huge to nothing, back to huge in a relatively short amount of time.


Maybe BoB has a secret plan, a dozen titans in NOL 23/7? ;) /shrug

From the V-Dead thread : http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473385 Looks like D2 is indeed going down to BoB space, in a big way.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 09, 2007, 04:13:08 PM
Either way, I don't think BoB planned on a RedSwarm campaign when they were making moves towards the North.

Fuck, I have got to get into the PvP game.

Ditto.  But my SA account is nowhere near old enough to get me into GS.  I wish that they had some Stalinist punishment-battalion-type-thing where unproven newbies could zerg rush on orders without knowing why.  My 10 million skill points may not be much, but I sure would like to use them for good at least until the sub runs out.

Of coursem f13 could decide to have some fun and join in the dogpile?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on February 09, 2007, 04:33:49 PM
More importantly for those of us here: How can we profit from this?  8-)

Join the privateers!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 09, 2007, 05:03:41 PM
Think the situation through for a second.

BoB is starting a war with the Russians on the eastern front in the dead of winter.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on February 09, 2007, 06:26:33 PM

Did you just invoke Godwin's law?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 09, 2007, 06:53:05 PM
Odd. F13corp got wardecced today by a 4-member merc corp, and LV just attacked our (0.3) POS.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on February 09, 2007, 07:01:42 PM
Server is gonna die hard a lot.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 09, 2007, 07:05:18 PM
Odd. F13corp got wardecced today by a 4-member merc corp, and LV just attacked our (0.3) POS.

... what?  Did they give a reason?  What's the corp name?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Viin on February 09, 2007, 07:29:19 PM
That is weird.

Are we even on for them to shoot us? :P


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 09, 2007, 07:53:51 PM
They can't dread in low sec I thought? Or am I just not remebering the cyno rules correctly again.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 09, 2007, 08:15:40 PM
Odd. F13corp got wardecced today by a 4-member merc corp, and LV just attacked our (0.3) POS.
We have a .3 POS? We're -- well you, I'm still newb corp and haven't gotten around to applying -- not affiliated with BoB, are we? Fucking politics.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 09, 2007, 09:20:00 PM
They can't dread in low sec I thought? Or am I just not remebering the cyno rules correctly again.

Dreads can indeed go in lowsec. We're not affiliated with any alliance. I received no mail in regards to the wardec.

Corp is Svefn-G-Englar.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 09, 2007, 09:56:01 PM
They can't dread in low sec I thought? Or am I just not remebering the cyno rules correctly again.

Dreads can indeed go in lowsec. We're not affiliated with any alliance. I received no mail in regards to the wardec.

Corp is Svefn-G-Englar.
Are there formal alliances in EVE, where you can get some sort of cascading wardec like in WWI? Or can only this tiny corp hit F13?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on February 10, 2007, 01:01:57 AM
Hmmm, unless this war destroys the alliances on both sides, it could be the most serious threat that EVE has ever faced.  Winning is the death of a PvP game.


Title: Re: War
Post by: d4rkj3di on February 10, 2007, 01:36:43 AM
BoB has a tough choice. They can stay home and defend the North against D2, and watch as LV gets steamrolled by RedSwarm, or they can help defend the one system that LV cares about. The one with their Capital Yards that are currently producing a Titan. Tonight they chose to sit in a system all night protecting that Titan, while LV's other stations were systematically destroyed 1 by 1 by RedSwarm. LV will lose Soverignty in Insmother, and if BoB isn't careful, they could lose a good bit of Sov themselves to D2. Oh, that Titan is vulnerable for the next 30 days. I think that BoB will not stick around that long to help LV. May you live in interesting times.

And it's true that complete victory ruins a PvP game. Shadowbane taught us that, if nothing else.

Yoru, let me know if that "war" becomes too much of a nuisance, and I'll see about getting some Goons to help out :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 10, 2007, 01:45:19 AM

Did you just invoke Godwin's law?
Napoleon tried the same thing before zee germans, you know?  :wink:

Oh, and the construction of LV's titan got aborted as soon as the POS got put into reinforced - the questions now is whether LV/BoB can rescue the 60 billion isk worth of raw materials, and if they can...can they prevent Redswarm from just hitting the array POS again in a fortnight's time?


Title: Re: War
Post by: d4rkj3di on February 10, 2007, 01:59:48 AM
No, the Titan is still in production. Apparently shutting down when going into reinforced was a bug that was fixed when the Revelations patch hit. An undocumented bug fix that somehow BoB and LV knew about. The Titan is still in production for another 30 days. So unless LV wants to lose that investment, they are tied to that system for a month.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 10, 2007, 04:51:37 AM
Corp is Svefn-G-Englar.

They're a MERC corp. Wacky merc corp at that, they charge per kill. Here's from the ingame info:
Quote
Currently considering merc contracts. Rates vary depending on the contract, guideline prices are as follows:
-100mil a week for a war
Extra cost per kill as follows:
-10mil for a BS or Command Ship kill
-7mil for an HAC or BC kill
-2mil for a T2 Frig kill
-2mil for a Barge or loaded Hauler kill

lol. And they're four guys. Obviously someone hired them. Or they're looking to make a name for themselves.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on February 10, 2007, 05:12:04 AM
I can just hear the inception of such an idea:

"Let us attack a small corp in low sec for no apparent reason.  That will make us stand out from the crowd!"

More likely they are a front for some larger organization that has an arbitrary line, probably 'no POSs' that they won't let other players cross.  I've seen the same thing in other games, where well-established players draw that sort of line, and call it 'fairness', rather than deal with politics that bore them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on February 10, 2007, 07:13:55 AM
Guys, this is Gotterdamering. This war all gods die sort of thing.

If LV's attacked you, time to join the other side. You'll never get an enemy this big to fight against, never one more arrogent, never one more proud.

This is a war to define EvE. Either you're fighting for BoB and the ability to define eve thier way, or not.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 10, 2007, 09:04:41 AM
Guys, this is Gotterdamering. This war all gods die sort of thing.

If LV's attacked you, time to join the other side. You'll never get an enemy this big to fight against, never one more arrogent, never one more proud.

This is a war to define EvE. Either you're fighting for BoB and the ability to define eve thier way, or not.

Perhaps a little over-dramatic, but I agree with the conclusion.  Why not?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on February 10, 2007, 09:29:16 AM
Because having read Joe's article in The Escapist, I think it is unlikely I will continue to give CCP my money.  Which is sad, because Gotterdamring should be a pretty good time in a PvP game.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 10, 2007, 09:43:15 AM
Because having read Joe's article in The Escapist, I think it is unlikely I will continue to give CCP my money.  Which is sad, because Gotterdamring should be a pretty good time in a PvP game.
Eh, Joe's article skims over the whistle-blower actions -- the guy blowing the whistle is seriously far more of an ass (and is "spy network" is generally "hacking other people's forums") than Joe's article indicates. There's a definite slant there that whats-his-face was banned for whistleblowing. Perhaps he was, but in all fairness the guy had about a two-page long list of bannable offenses to his name already.

I still think t20 should be fired, but I still haven't heard a firm answer as to whether he is actually a fireable dev and not part owner.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 10, 2007, 09:52:59 AM
Because having read Joe's article in The Escapist, I think it is unlikely I will continue to give CCP my money.  Which is sad, because Gotterdamring should be a pretty good time in a PvP game.

Oh, I agree: I cancelled my accounts, and the second one runs out next week.  But I'd resub to the end of this war just to help take down the devs' pet corp.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Tragny on February 10, 2007, 10:08:08 AM
But my SA account is nowhere near old enough to get me into GS.

If you're actually interested, you may want to contact TripleDES here on the forums. I believe he is a Goon and might be able to sponsor you in. If not, you might check the Hate channel in game(Corpnews channel from a while back), it's not often got many(or any) people, but the few who came by were mostly Goons. Alternately, and I'm not sure of IAC's involvement, Comstr might be able to smuggle you into IAC for some shooty shooty on the same side of that war.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Trouble on February 10, 2007, 10:14:54 AM
Any hints on where the best place in empire to sell things that people in the war will buy? I'm relatively good at making money but I'm still very noob at this game and don't know the geography very well.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 10, 2007, 10:18:43 AM
Check out the 'latest' map in either the official COAD forums or the helpful links sticky here.  It'll show you where the major powers are. 

Right now there's a lot of fighting in LV space, and apparently D2 moved a ton of freighters down to Fountain for an assault on BoB. 


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 10, 2007, 10:53:26 AM
They can't dread in low sec I thought? Or am I just not remebering the cyno rules correctly again.

Dreads can indeed go in lowsec. We're not affiliated with any alliance. I received no mail in regards to the wardec.

Corp is Svefn-G-Englar.
Are there formal alliances in EVE, where you can get some sort of cascading wardec like in WWI? Or can only this tiny corp hit F13?

There are formal alliances (called, oddly enough, 'Alliances') that cost lots of money to form and maintain, but also provide things like shared wardecs, etc.

Then there are informal "coalitions" which are alliances of alliances, such as D2/IRON, BoB and its vassals, and Drunkswarm (IAC/Goonfleet/RA/lots of others). These can certainly cascade into a Space War to End All Space Wars. In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).

Yoru, let me know if that "war" becomes too much of a nuisance, and I'll see about getting some Goons to help out :)

Unlikely to be much of a problem. We're 40 guys to their 4. At worst we'll Swarm them, Goon-style. :P

Corp is Svefn-G-Englar.

They're a MERC corp. Wacky merc corp at that, they charge per kill. Here's from the ingame info:
...
lol. And they're four guys. Obviously someone hired them. Or they're looking to make a name for themselves.

Yeah, I was a little confused at why someone would pay 100m/week to attack F13. I figure they're just bored mercs looking for some shooty practice on what appears to be a weak noob corp.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 10, 2007, 12:31:48 PM
Yeah, I was a little confused at why someone would pay 100m/week to attack F13. I figure they're just bored mercs looking for some shooty practice on what appears to be a weak noob corp.
Probably a mistake there. If you need another cruiser, let me know. My Vex can irritate them greatly while everyone else kills them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 10, 2007, 01:11:55 PM
In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).
And everyone just knows that AAA is merely waiting for the opportune moment.  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on February 10, 2007, 04:06:40 PM
"the guy blowing the whistle is seriously far more of an ass"

I'm not paying the guy who blew the whistle to run an honest game.  And apparently, I haven't been paying CCP to do that, either.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 10, 2007, 04:30:47 PM
"the guy blowing the whistle is seriously far more of an ass"

I'm not paying the guy who blew the whistle to run an honest game.  And apparently, I haven't been paying CCP to do that, either.
No -- but if he's going to bring up CCP's banning of the whistle-blower, he should actually discuss CCP's reasons for it -- as it is, he left the implication that whats-his-face was banned for blowing the whistle.

He was banned for being a persistent forum hacker and -- that his forum hacking fun exposed an instance of Dev abuse (and several other instances of Devs merely playing the game) is incidental. Now, one doesn't have to believe CCP's claims here (although from what I can tell from outside sources, this guy really is a dick and he's been banned before and should have been banned for this too) --- but one should at least have brought them up.

He was writing an article, after all.

Still, I'm a bit surprised by the naive attitude here. The Devs play their game. This is a "good thing". Some playing Devs and some GMs will abuse their authority, their tools, and their access. This is a "bad thing". You're not going to have one without the other, no matter how many steps a company takes to do it.

I don't know if I agree with whatever internal steps CCP took towards t20. I don't know what they were. I am surprised he wasn't fired, but as I've said many times -- I've yet to learn whether he could really be fired.

In the end -- it really doesn't fucking matter. BoB got a few BPOs for some period of time, then lost them. Some corps -- including BoB -- may or may not have gotten insider information that aided them at one point or another. That's all bad.

But practically speaking -- it's not the end of the world. CCP will do whatever the hell they think they need to do, and life will go back to normal until the next Dev with less ethics than coding abilities gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, in which case this shit will start all over.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tkinnun0 on February 10, 2007, 05:34:28 PM
No -- but if he's going to bring up CCP's banning of the whistle-blower, he should actually discuss CCP's reasons for it -- as it is, he left the implication that whats-his-face was banned for blowing the whistle.

Well, he's been at it for quite some time, so banning him just now would seem to imply just that. Also, all he has done is see information he wasn't supposed to see, so what is there in banning him for CCP, except revenge?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on February 10, 2007, 05:44:24 PM
But practically speaking -- it's not the end of the world. CCP will do whatever the hell they think they need to do, and life will go back to normal until the next Dev with less ethics than coding abilities gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, in which case this shit will start all over.
It isn't the cheating.  As you say, gonna happen.

It isn't banning the person who revealed the scam.  Yeah, looks like a louse, and my distrust of him kept me skeptical until a source I have more faith in, Joe and The Escapist, presented the story, thus putting their own names on the line.  While I'm not a fanboi for either, I accept that they have integrity at stake, and that makes them believable, where Joe Hobby Hacker is not.

It isn't failing to fire the offender, although I do think it is the only proper action.  It is their company, they can decide how to run it.

But, as we have seen so often, the coverup is worse than the crime.  That is the offense I am truely outraged about.  That wasn't an accident, or a rouge employee.  That was a choice by a company to deceive its customers.  And that is not acceptable to me.  I don't do business with people who cannot be trusted.

For me, it is the end of EVE's world, and probably the last time I will deal with CCP.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on February 10, 2007, 08:58:44 PM
So what remains to be seen is how many people quit and how many stick around because of this war providing entertainment (I don't mean from F13, but the playerbase in general).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on February 15, 2007, 02:28:37 PM
In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).
And everyone just knows that AAA is merely waiting for the opportune moment.  :-D

For those keeping count, that moment is now.  They've just declared on MC.  Thoughtfully MC had moved all their cap ships to the other side of the galaxy to bail out FATAL (an LV splinter alliance).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 15, 2007, 02:49:56 PM
In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).
And everyone just knows that AAA is merely waiting for the opportune moment.  :-D

For those keeping count, that moment is now.  They've just declared on MC.  Thoughtfully MC had moved all their cap ships to the other side of the galaxy to bail out FATAL (an LV splinter alliance).
It's fucking WWI in EVE right now. I need to scrape together some more war supplies to haul to The Forge. I suspect a lot of disposable gear is going to be purchased.

This war is really going to move the money around -- between war dec costs, ship and module losses -- this is going to be felt.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 16, 2007, 04:51:59 AM
After a zerg battle, a node crash or three and nigh-infinite lag, LV's Titan-under-construction went bang last night.
Also, BoB is rumoured to be retreating from LV space to defend their own regions.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on February 16, 2007, 07:11:09 AM
In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).
And everyone just knows that AAA is merely waiting for the opportune moment.  :-D

For those keeping count, that moment is now.  They've just declared on MC.  Thoughtfully MC had moved all their cap ships to the other side of the galaxy to bail out FATAL (an LV splinter alliance).

Got a front row ticket for this battle, we are the one of the alliances sieging FATAL (who have been bailed out by an LV titan once, a large Outbreak T2 BS gang once, and a huge MC cap fleet once). You think there may be some plans for the new regions involving bob/LV and co? ;) They really want FATAL to hold that ground.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 16, 2007, 07:22:28 AM
That's a lot of ships (http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/277/277954/folders/243838/2103674300ongate.JPG)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 16, 2007, 10:05:04 AM
Fixed your link :P


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 16, 2007, 10:10:22 AM
It worked when I previewed it.  :cry:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 11:24:22 AM
Word is D2 just lost their Titan.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 16, 2007, 11:27:01 AM
Word is D2 just lost their Titan.
Yup...and in almost exactly the same way as ASCN lost theirs.
Interesting.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on February 16, 2007, 11:36:22 AM
Is that the ONLY way to kill a titan?  I don't have the experience, but it seems that the problem is keeping a titan from jumping away long enough to allow its destruction.  Other than removing its pilot via lag, what other ways are there to do that?  Can an alliance completely hunt out or suppress all the possible cyno alts that the titan pilot has access to?

If it's the only way to destroy one, I'm not surprised that they spent time to devise a strategy and train themselves to implement it effectively, repeatedly.  That it's illegal, that doesn't surprise me either.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 11:56:23 AM
Is that the ONLY way to kill a titan?  I don't have the experience, but it seems that the problem is keeping a titan from jumping away long enough to allow its destruction.  Other than removing its pilot via lag, what other ways are there to do that?  Can an alliance completely hunt out or suppress all the possible cyno alts that the titan pilot has access to?

If it's the only way to destroy one, I'm not surprised that they spent time to devise a strategy and train themselves to implement it effectively, repeatedly.  That it's illegal, that doesn't surprise me either.
D2 was, I believe, using their Titan solo which was stupid as shit. You can lay a trap for it -- lure it in with a blob of suicide ships, let the Titan fire it's Doomsday weapon, then have the rest of the gang (Dreads, EW ships, etc) warp to one of the pods -- drop a bubble and pound it. Be tricky, though. Would only work if the Titan was flying solo.

Right now there seems to be a bug with aggression timers and wrecks -- what seems to be happening is the Titan pilot blows up some ships, warps out, sees the timer countdown finish and logs. However, someone is down there shooting wrecks -- which keeps the Titan scannable. When the guy logs, they scan the Titan, jump to it, and destroy it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yegolev on February 16, 2007, 12:05:59 PM
Gee, I wonder how someone would figure out a bug like that.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 12:11:17 PM
Gee, I wonder how someone would figure out a bug like that.
If you PvP enough, I suspect it's not hard to spot. More than BoB knew about it, that's for sure -- when ACSN lost theirs, it was quickly speculated that the BoB had exploited that particular bug.

Assuming it is a bug (I can't think of a gameplay reason aggression timers would work like that, but I might understand the bug wrong).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on February 16, 2007, 12:41:00 PM
Most people that read the forums are aware of the shooting wrecks bug.  No clue if that's what actually happened though.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 16, 2007, 12:42:34 PM
Titan is indeed down - http://www.killboard.net/details/130721/. In case the killboard is down: IT HAS T2 FITTING!!?!?

I read through the scrapheap-challenge thread, here's a summary:

1) Titan does not have a kill in the last three days. It is most likely not a wreck exploit.
2) If you have an asset forgotten in empire (shuttle, anchored secure can, etc) that would work as the wreck exploit, so that's one way BoB might have done it.
3) Titan has sat in a POS all by himslef for the past couple of hours. That was why he was alone. No idea why he decided to log off.
4) A quote from the thread:
Quote
[20:11] (Vando): [20:10] (Farjung): He didn't disappear because he was on aggro timer, he was on aggro timer because he was aggroed very shortly before he logged off, that's about the long and short of it
[20:11] (Vando): how?
[20:11] (Farjung): I'm sure it'll be figured out fairly soon, but I'm not going to spoil it

I have immense respect for Farjung. So for now I'm leaning towards the "OMG D2 ARE STUPID BOB HAD A SPY THAT DID SOMETHING TO AGRO THE TITAN!" or something. We'll know soon enough I guess.

ps: if the forum kills my post again I'll need the location of Schild's home.

edit: yeey it went through. Third time was a charm. Ok GalCiv time, I'll let stuff develop and F5 forums later :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yegolev on February 16, 2007, 12:45:53 PM
To counter my own comment, I can verify that the aggro timer is not to be trusted.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tazelbain on February 16, 2007, 01:00:56 PM
So EVE expects people with titans to be logged in 24/7.  That's the only way make sure you you aren't raped by that timer.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 16, 2007, 01:15:15 PM
Titans really are pretty much only for the Hardcore, so...

I expect you could also put it inside a POS bubble, eject and go do something else, but that's just asking for the POS to get sieged.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 16, 2007, 01:22:15 PM
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=477394

It's legit. It was a spy. Ghey, but legit.

Quote
Statement Dusk and Dawn

Today D lost an Erebus class Titan.

Because there are still a lot of questions about these recent events, here are some points from our persepective.

The Erebus pilot had planned to log out as he had things to attend to out of game, in order to do this he jumped back from the front line to a more secure system. He had not been involved in any fights or attacks for the three hours prior to this.

It seems that the Erebus was being scouted by a internal Spy who has since been identified. This character was flying a cloaked Anathema Covert Ops frigate. Shortly before the Pilot was going to log off, he uncloaked and used a Passive Targeter to lock the Erebus and fired a single shot on him. Seconds after this, the Titan pilot logged.

So the aggro timer was increased without our pilot noticing.

Minutes after this it was reported that the Titan had not disappeared, so the pilot attempted to log back in.
Unfortunately there was no chance for him to save the Titan, due to a well executed plan by BoB who had jumped in their Capital Fleet and Support.

We always knew it was going to be a dirty war, but once again, Band of Brother prooves, it can always get more dirty.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 01:26:03 PM
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=477394

It's legit. It was a spy. Ghey, but legit.

Quote
Statement Dusk and Dawn

Today D lost an Erebus class Titan.

Because there are still a lot of questions about these recent events, here are some points from our persepective.

The Erebus pilot had planned to log out as he had things to attend to out of game, in order to do this he jumped back from the front line to a more secure system. He had not been involved in any fights or attacks for the three hours prior to this.

It seems that the Erebus was being scouted by a internal Spy who has since been identified. This character was flying a cloaked Anathema Covert Ops frigate. Shortly before the Pilot was going to log off, he uncloaked and used a Passive Targeter to lock the Erebus and fired a single shot on him. Seconds after this, the Titan pilot logged.

So the aggro timer was increased without our pilot noticing.

Minutes after this it was reported that the Titan had not disappeared, so the pilot attempted to log back in.
Unfortunately there was no chance for him to save the Titan, due to a well executed plan by BoB who had jumped in their Capital Fleet and Support.

We always knew it was going to be a dirty war, but once again, Band of Brother prooves, it can always get more dirty.
Not gay -- that's how the damn game is supposed to be played. I'm not sure I would have considered that system safe to begin with.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 16, 2007, 01:35:14 PM
I only added the ghey part as a second thought. I'm starting to feel like a BoB fanboi on these forums, being the only guy that defends them... :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 01:39:53 PM
I only added the ghey part as a second thought. I'm starting to feel like a BoB fanboi on these forums, being the only guy that defends them... :)
I'll happily defend that. Spying and backstabbing and treachery is why I joined the game. Mostly so I could watch it. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on February 16, 2007, 01:41:54 PM
Seems like cheap tactics to me.

If they were not online to see the agro message, they should get re-imbursed.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 16, 2007, 01:44:14 PM
Spies and all that are fine, but these seems about as close as you can get to exploiting in-game vs. out of game mechanics without crossing CCP's line.   :-P 


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 16, 2007, 01:44:30 PM
2007.02.16 17:58:46 Combat Your Micro Graviton Smartbomb I hits WOTANKN [CE]<D2>(Erebus), doing 15.0 damage.

Titan was killed @ Date :     Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:07:00

=

9 Minutes. Within aggro range.

Anyway, he was online Furiously. If he logged before the bomb hit him, he wouldn't be on aggro timer and disappear in 2 minutes. That's how I know it at least and that's what the scrapheap guys are saying.


edit: Titan was outside the shields - http://shadowforce.wiredhub.net/bob/2007.02.16.17.58.48.jpg


Title: Re: War
Post by: tazelbain on February 16, 2007, 01:48:56 PM
Sorry its lame. It feels too much like the stupidity of Shadowbane and having to guard your city all the time.  And a kill from exploiting a timer, I thought the point of a time stop people from exploiting.

Let people know when it is safe to log out, and let them log out.  It's game not social experiment on how much screw over your players.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 16, 2007, 01:55:54 PM
That's one of the reasons I love EVE. The people that _KNOW_ how the game works are actually good at it. And can cause damage to the people that don't.

For reference: The micro smartbombs are considered as one of the most useless modules in the game. That one would think outside the box, the way digi did to come up with that plan is nothing short of amazing. I love the guy.

There are at least 5 things that the Erebus pilot could have done to prevent the current events. That I can think of. Noone made him become a Titan pilot. He most likely volunteered for it. Stuff like this comes with the terriotory - you should be on your toes all the time. If you feel that's too much for you - fly a fucking battleship. Or a Dreadnought.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 02:00:33 PM
Sorry its lame. It feels too much like the stupidity of Shadowbane and having to guard your city all the time.  And a kill from exploiting a timer, I thought the point of a time stop people from exploiting.

Let people know when it is safe to log out, and let them log out.  It's game not social experiment on how much screw over your players.
It was NOT exploiting a timer. Get that through your head.

Here's what happens:

1) Erebus pilot says to corp "Gonna log off now" and warps to safe spot.
2) Covert Ops ship follows him.
3) Covert Ops ship targets him with a passive targeter -- they're called passive because the target doesn't get the sound-effects or notitifcation he's been targeted that active targeters do.
4) As he's getting ready to log off, Covert Ops ship drops a smartbomb -- which doesn't even register on the Titan's shields (virtually no damage).
5) Titan pilot does not bother to look to see if he's in combat, or his timer has restarted because no one has actively targeted him and there's no one around.
6) Titan Pilot logs out.
7) BoB warps in, kills Titan.

If the Erebus pilot had logged off with his tank running, he might not have lost his Titan. (His corp noted that his ship was still in space after 60 seconds, and he tried to log back in -- found himself down to structure at that point and dead as all shit. With a tank going, he'd probably ahve still been in armor and might have been able to flee -- or at least hold out until reinforcements arrived). If the Erebus pilot had bothered to look at the aggression timer, he'd have seen it happily ticking. He just assumed he was safe and logged out.

Why did he assume he was safe? He'd spent 3 hours inside a POS shield -- no one was seigeing the place. He only notified his corp he was logging out. He didn't think about spies, he didn't think about passive targeters and micro-damage -- and it cost him a Titan.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on February 16, 2007, 02:05:33 PM
Lame. That isn't playing the game; that's meta gaming on par with stealing monopoly money when the other player goes to the bathroom. I'm fine up to the point where they kill the guy after he's already logged off.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 16, 2007, 02:08:20 PM
Morat, It's even more lame. If I get everything correctly the exact timeline was this:

1) Erebus pilot says to corp "Gonna log off now" and exits POS shields (why? No idea. Pic I posted earlier proves it).
2) Spy in Covert Ops ship decloaks and MWDs right for him at 2k/s. (again judging by the pic I posted. He's with engaged MWD and at full speed)
3) He doesn't even target him - while the Erebus is alligning to warp to safe the spy hits him with a Micro Smartbomb (you _do not need_ to target someone to hit him with a smart bomb. You just have to be in range) -- which doesn't even register on the Titan's shields (virtually no damage).
4) Titan Pilot logs out.
5) BoB warps in, kills Titan.

Everything else you said about running tanks, etc is very much valid.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on February 16, 2007, 02:12:54 PM
Note to self:

When flying a $10,000 spaceship, have someone follow me to the safe spot and tell me over teamspeak that I have logged out successfully.

Or have an alt on another account at the safespot so you can check yourself. An alt SPECIFICALLY for verifying logouts. Name him 'lawn jockey' or something clever.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 02:16:03 PM
Morat, It's even more lame. If I get everything correctly the exact timeline was this:

1) Erebus pilot says to corp "Gonna log off now" and exits POS shields (why? No idea. Pic I posted earlier proves it).
2) Spy in Covert Ops ship decloaks and MWDs right for him at 2k/s. (again judging by the pic I posted. He's with engaged MWD and at full speed)
3) He doesn't even target him - while the Erebus is alligning to warp to safe the spy hits him with a Micro Smartbomb (you _do not need_ to target someone to hit him with a smart bomb. You just have to be in range) -- which doesn't even register on the Titan's shields (virtually no damage).
4) Titan Pilot logs out.
5) BoB warps in, kills Titan.

Everything else you said about running tanks, etc is very much valid.
If he logged out inside the POS's shields, he'd have logged back in to find that POS under seige. Which makes it even lamer -- any corp with the scratch to have even a decent capital ship fleet, much less a Titan, knows it's got spies. Which is why he won't log out inside a POS, lest the spy inform his enemies where the Titan is so they can seige the place and blow it up.

So they warp off to the middle of nowhere and log there. But he doesn't assume the corp is inflitrated when he goes to log, so he doesn't even look up in the upper right hand corner for the bright aggression timer clock countdown.

Krakrok: Given the power of Titans, that is one of their drawbacks. They cannot dock for a reason. This was a very clever hit, in EVE terms. There were a lot of things he could have done to prevent this -- including just glancing at his screen. He screwed up, BoB was very clever and killed a Titan -- they had to burn an agent to do it, but they did it.

If he'd even activeated his tank before he logged, he would have been able to get back to the Titan and flee. I can't imagine why he didn't -- it costs nothing in that situation.


Title: Re: War
Post by: TheDreamr on February 16, 2007, 02:20:11 PM
Losing a titan has to hurt, but losing a titan like that must really burn.   However you can't help but admire the logic of someone who engineered a scheme like that - it all relies on legitimate game mechanics and co-ordinated tactics so there's no "grey area" involved.

If they'd gone with the "cheap tactic" route of using a wreck to cause the aggression it would have been an exploit and the loss eventually replaced by CCP.    Instead they took the existing tactic of using a covert ops probe ships as they leave the safety of a POS, and came up with something relatively clever.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 02:25:44 PM
Losing a titan has to hurt, but losing a titan like that must really burn.   However you can't help but admire the logic of someone who engineered a scheme like that - it all relies on legitimate game mechanics and co-ordinated tactics so there's no "grey area" involved.

If they'd gone with the "cheap tactic" route of using a wreck to cause the aggression it would have been an exploit and the loss eventually replaced by CCP.    Instead they took the existing tactic of using a covert ops probe ships as they leave the safety of a POS, and came up with something relatively clever.
It's about the only way to kill Titans, really -- what was really stupid was him flying off unescorted like that. The system was full of allies. Solo Titans are vulnerable, especially if they've already fired their big gun.

If you can coax them to shoot, I can think of a few things you can do that might kill them -- assuming you can keep reinforcements away. It looked like the BoB fleet was actually prepared for him to still be there -- or come back quickly. I suspect their plan was simple: Warp in, hit the Titan with every Nos they can slap on, and hope by the time he realizes he's under attack that he won't have enough juice to fire his big gun or run his tank long enough for help to arrive.

Even if he'd realized what was happening and not logged, he might still have died -- depends on how quick they could have slapped on the Nos' and how much cap it took to warp.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 16, 2007, 02:31:53 PM
Actually the russians almost got Molle's Avatar the other day. They always have 20+ capitals waiting one cyno away from hostilities, they managed to bump him and warp in a lot of dreads and their mom and started hitting him and nosed him enough so he couldn't cyno out. Actually managed to scratch his armor, but BoB sacrifised two carriers that jumped in and Capital Cap Trasnfer Array'ed him to 80% cap and he jumped out.

So it is possible to kill a titan. Really hard though.

Man I'm really whoring this thread. Interesting stuff like this never happens while I'm at work :(


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 02:34:40 PM
Actually the russians almost got Molle's Avatar the other day. They always have 20+ capitals waiting one cyno away from hostilities, they managed to bump him and warp in a lot of dreads and their mom and started hitting him and nosed him enough so he couldn't cyno out. Actually managed to scratch his armor, but BoB sacrifised two carriers that jumped in and Capital Cap Trasnfer Array'ed him to 80% cap and he jumped out.

So it is possible to kill a titan. Really hard though.

Man I'm really whoring this thread. Interesting stuff like this never happens while I'm at work :(
Someone else lost a mothership today -- don't recall who, but the pilot said it was quite the fair kill.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 16, 2007, 02:37:40 PM
Quote
So they warp off to the middle of nowhere and log there. But he doesn't assume the corp is inflitrated when he goes to log, so he doesn't even look up in the upper right hand corner for the bright aggression timer clock countdown.


That timer was flakey when they first put it in, often just showing the wrong amount of time left if at all. I wouldn't be surprised if it was still half broken to this day. I'm half certain its even in the EVE knowledgebase, about how the timer can be wrong due to XYZ circumstances etc.




Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 16, 2007, 02:38:43 PM
Quote
Someone else lost a mothership today -- don't recall who, but the pilot said it was quite the fair kill.


http://www.mercenarycoalition.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27227

http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helendownxg4.jpg

I'm guessing that's the one? Crazy killmail  :-D

(Woah, they had 78 Capitals hitting that mom - http://bbs.eve-china.com/attachments/month_0702/78_capitals_wohgZEMW5gFP.jpg). Ok I'm really stopping the whorage now. Off to bed with me, I'll read up tommorow :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on February 16, 2007, 02:48:47 PM
Killing someone who isn't online isn't clever. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on February 16, 2007, 03:05:55 PM
Killing someone who isn't online isn't clever. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Tagging him as he logs out in order to keep his ship and his character in game is clever. It was a very well executed plan.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 16, 2007, 04:10:12 PM
Killing someone who isn't online isn't clever. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Tagging him as he logs out in order to keep his ship and his character in game is clever. It was a very well executed plan.


While entirely true, it doesn't make it less lame. Then again EVE is full of playing to win at any cost, so meh. That's just how the game rolls. Be it this, or logoffski, or spying and whatever new metagame is being played.


Still would've preferred to see the ship go down guns a blazing or something similar.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on February 16, 2007, 04:28:34 PM
It wouldn't have happened; the Titan pilot would have tried to jump out or somehow avoid the fight, rather than make a "guns blazing" last stand as you imagine.

The situation is similar to the whole issue with instajump bookmarks, back before we had warp bubbles and whatnot.  Poor game design results in black-and-white situations, either you have 100% invulnerability and the ability to escape, or you have 0% chance.  Had the Titans been vulnerable to electronic warfare, BoB wouldn't have had to resort to this sort of stuff to kill one.  Of course, BoB's titans would have been equally vulnerable, but that's besides the point.  Probably the end result would have been that no one would have build any Titans, due to them being too big of a loss risk.

Meh.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on February 16, 2007, 06:46:03 PM
If a PvP tactic revolves around creating a PvN situation, that tactic indicates your PvP design is broken.  The point, after all, is to fight players, and fighting empty assets is carebear beyond PvE.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 07:19:19 PM
If a PvP tactic revolves around creating a PvN situation, that tactic indicates your PvP design is broken.  The point, after all, is to fight players, and fighting empty assets is carebear beyond PvE.
PvP tactics versus supercapital ships are to catch them away from their support fleet. It's a flaw in Titan design that requires this sort of attack, although as I said before -- even had he not logged off, there was a fair chance BoB might have taken him down. Would have lost a lot of ships in the process, but they were loaded to drain his cap, keep him in place, and kick his ass.

I suspect they weren't counting on the guy actually being fooled. Hoping, yes. But with the ships they brought, and the loadout they had -- if the guy wasn't fooled, they had a suprisingly good shot at nailing his ass to the floor and killing him before help could arrive. When a Titan pilot goes to log off is pretty much the only time a Titan is generally away from his fleet.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on February 16, 2007, 08:28:14 PM
I'm not disagreeing with what you said, I'm saying that design that promotes waiting for someone to log off, or attempt to do so, is bad PvP design.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Strazos on February 17, 2007, 02:45:52 AM
Sorry, but I still don't see how Logoffski is a valid tactic - it's totally an abuse of the login mechanics.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on February 17, 2007, 05:37:20 AM
AFIAK there was no aggression timer to *See*, so unless he noticed a 1 point hit to his 10000 point shield, you'd never know. If he'd pressed escape, he'd never even see that.

Prediction: CCP adds in a  visable aggression timer *AND* a warning if you log out before hand.

The plan was well thought out, well timed and well exacuted. It is a lame plan. Killing enemy Titans when they log off is a lame idea. it works, but is lame.

Prediction: Someone does a DDOS attack to offline a Titan at some point. The plan will be well thought out, well timed and well exacuted. This does not make any better either.

IAC lost a mothership, because a)lag: it was warped and IN a POS on the motherships pilots view, while still getting shot by the LV gang and b)I suspect the unsuported mothership pilot was being an ass and trying to take down a fleet big enough to kill it anyway.


So, if you want to take down enemy super capatil ships in EvE, cause enough lag to allow you to do it, or B) do it when the Titan pilot is already offline. Once again, CCP shows they havn't thought things through to thier logical conclusion.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on February 17, 2007, 09:46:22 AM
Evil Thug from Against All Authorities has an Erebus. MC are back home and fighting -A-


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 17, 2007, 11:17:56 AM
AFIAK there was no aggression timer to *See*, so unless he noticed a 1 point hit to his 10000 point shield, you'd never know. If he'd pressed escape, he'd never even see that.

You mean like the big red or yellow text in the upper right corner of your screen that says "Aggression Countdown"?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on February 17, 2007, 01:01:43 PM
How do you know that was present?  It is quite conceivable that there might be a bug in the warning display under unusual conditions.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on February 17, 2007, 02:13:43 PM
Yellow warning is only from npc's and red is only global criminal countdown which shows up only, I think, if you agress somebody in low sec (ie not 0.0) and definitely not if you're the one being agressed anywhere.   Neither of which would be relevant to this guy.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on February 17, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
I suspect they weren't counting on the guy actually being fooled. Hoping, yes. But with the ships they brought, and the loadout they had -- if the guy wasn't fooled, they had a suprisingly good shot at nailing his ass to the floor and killing him before help could arrive. When a Titan pilot goes to log off is pretty much the only time a Titan is generally away from his fleet.
According to the guy who "tagged" the titan, it was done "just in case" -- he didn't actually know for sure the pilot would log off soon after, at that point. Was a presumption he acted upon as the titan just finished bridging D2 capital fleet to their base POS. Which is by the way why it was outside the POS shields.

Had it not loged off, they were quite prepared to try and drop their capital fleet on top of it and try to kill it in front of D2's assorted 20+ dreads and carriers. But it did log off, so it ended the way it did.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 17, 2007, 03:55:52 PM
Chowdown (LV Titan pilot) needs to aim better.  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 17, 2007, 04:26:38 PM
For those playing the Home Game, F13 is no longer wardecced. The "mercs" must've gotten bored or something as they didn't pay the war fee.

Victoly!  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 18, 2007, 02:55:21 PM
Sorry, but I still don't see how Logoffski is a valid tactic - it's totally an abuse of the login mechanics.


It most certainly is, but by CCP's own admissions, they can't detect/enforce it. So it's "legit" if you are playing to win at any cost. Same with what happend to D2's titan. The aggression timer intention was to prevent people from ditching in the middle of combat, so I can't just CTD when I hit structure to save my ship. I can almost guarantee Plinking someone for practically non detectable dmg to keep them in game when they were logging for the day wasn't part of the original design of the aggression timer, but it's another one of those situations where enforcing or selecting what is legit and what isn't is very difficult.


In the end, it is still, extremely lame.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on February 18, 2007, 03:38:17 PM
Logoffski is valid in a sense that there is no other alternative.
Face it combat in EVE is crap and is going to be even crappier (read newest blog from that "many people like it, but it's not the way I feel EVE should be" Tuxford retard) binary win-die.
In ol' good times,you at least had the hope, the chance f getting to the gate/warp out before that frigate got to you. Now, it's simple bubble->dead, no_bubble->alive. Same goes with getting webbed for most cases and it is a known fact that 90% fights are won before they even started.
The moment you engage, or get webbed, or land in a bubble, there is nothing you can do. High speed ceptors duels, were only exception, but as
Mr. Tux says "EVE is not about twitch movement".
If CCP removed logoffski (and it could be easily done), gate camps would become unstoppable, high-speed killmail factories.

In this light, D2 titan kill is an excellent game mechanic - since victim had tons of options he could do (from having someone to cover his as, to simply leaving his tank working). Compare with recent LV Titan-in-production loss: Goons delibrately killed the node and instantly filled it with their own ships - LV simply coud not log back and all they could do was looking at login screen while their titan died.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 18, 2007, 04:10:27 PM
In this light, D2 titan kill is an excellent game mechanic - since victim had tons of options he could do (from having someone to cover his as, to simply leaving his tank working). Compare with recent LV Titan-in-production loss: Goons delibrately killed the node and instantly filled it with their own ships - LV simply coud not log back and all they could do was looking at login screen while their titan died.
*snort*. That's one view of it. One could also say that LV decided to crash the node by planting a thousand T1 drones there -- in a node they knew was about have a few hundred ships drop into. You can't tell me T1 drones were part of the LV defenses -- not when they were already outnumbered 2 to 1.

Unfortunately for LV, their relog instructions were a bit stupid -- and the Goons got back on first. Of course, the Goons knew it was coming -- they'd send in a way of ships to clear out fighters and noticed what was going on.

Even had CCP had their shit together and had the node on Jita-size hardware before the battle, none of the CCP structure can handle 1200 ships PLUS every drone LV could place there. 1200 ships, maybe.

It doesn't matter anyways -- Goons had overwhelming force in any case. They had twice the numbers, and a hell of a lot more BS's and capital ships. LV didn't have a chance in hell other than to crash the node -- which failed. Goons didn't need to crash it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 18, 2007, 05:09:25 PM
The game just can't cope with the scale of combat being tossed around these days.


The Goons node crashing power was them just showing up. Going to fault them for high participation?

LV deploying drones isn't much worse either in that regard. Drones screaming around the battlefield should be a part of fleet combat, can't fault them for wanting to use them.



EVE was designed around fleet battles of 20-30 odd ships, but the norm seems to be 200+ ships these days.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on February 18, 2007, 07:48:57 PM
And why is that the norm?  Is it simply the avg. size of the corps, or is it some game mechanic?


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on February 18, 2007, 08:50:32 PM
And why is that the norm?  Is it simply the avg. size of the corps, or is it some game mechanic?
Game mechanics nowadays to considerable degree. The territory conquest revolves around sieging and defending player structures which take large number of capital ships to grind through amount of HP they have in reasonable time. 10-20 capital ships mean heavy money investment, so they are protected with support force that can easily reach hundred pilots. In order to stand good chance to engage and defeat such force, the enemy needs to bring similar numbers (and frequently more for the upper hand). At this point number of pilots in system hits 300-400 or more, and it's simply lag vs everyone else.


Title: Re: War
Post by: angry.bob on February 19, 2007, 12:03:24 AM
Game mechanics nowadays to considerable degree. The territory conquest revolves around sieging and defending player structures which take large number of capital ships to grind through amount of HP they have in reasonable time. 10-20 capital ships mean heavy money investment, so they are protected with support force that can easily reach hundred pilots. In order to stand good chance to engage and defeat such force, the enemy needs to bring similar numbers (and frequently more for the upper hand). At this point number of pilots in system hits 300-400 or more, and it's simply lag vs everyone else.

What a godawful pain to arrange.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on February 19, 2007, 04:28:53 AM
Yes, which is why I laughed when people groused about having to deal with 40 people in WoW. 


Title: Re: War
Post by: 5150 on February 19, 2007, 04:42:56 AM
Yellow warning is only from npc's and red is only global criminal countdown which shows up only, I think, if you agress somebody in low sec (ie not 0.0) and definitely not if you're the one being agressed anywhere.   Neither of which would be relevant to this guy.

Correct - the countdown only appears when in empire space and not 0.0

Also the actual timer is more than 15mins, I haven't timed it yet but it's nearer 20/25mins before your ship finally leaves the game (so now I believe Cyvok did wait out the full 15mins and not 13ish mins as BOB claimed)

If you want you can test this by you and a corp mate shoot each other at the same time in empire and one of you log out - the one who stays in bring up the directional scanner and set it to full distance (just fill the box with 9's) and set to 360 degrees. You will see your corp mates ship (ask what his ship is called beforehand!) on the scanner well after the 15min timer ends.

All you'd need then is some probes.....


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ironwood on February 19, 2007, 05:47:32 AM
Some of those ship names are genius.

The Anna Nicole Smith being destroyed was a nice touch....


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yegolev on February 19, 2007, 08:57:07 AM
Believe me, the aggro timer is not to be trusted.  A vet like Cyvok would know that.

My ships mostly have names from David Bowie songs.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on February 20, 2007, 07:38:32 PM
LV is going down hard; by the weekend the coalition will have several of their stations, there's serious dissension in the ranks and they've been spotted self-destructing ships for insurance money.  Shouldn't be long before GS/RA/TCF/IAC/Snigg/others are going at the main target and things start to get really interesting.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 20, 2007, 10:37:50 PM
LV is going down hard; by the weekend the coalition will have several of their stations, there's serious dissension in the ranks and they've been spotted self-destructing ships for insurance money.  Shouldn't be long before GS/RA/TCF/IAC/Snigg/others are going at the main target and things start to get really interesting.

Apparently, at least one dreadnaught   :-o

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=479610&page=1#27


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 21, 2007, 12:13:14 AM
What's the insurance on a dread like?

Poor bastards. I'd feel sorry for them if...

Wait, no I wouldn't. I took my pirate alt down to their space, solo, in a friggin' Tristan on Sunday and it took an hour of directors in interceptors running away from me before I managed to get podded. By a random dude in a Vexor. Who was mining when I warped in.


Toot toot!  :-)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on February 21, 2007, 01:14:48 AM
He lost it because he was retarded not because he wanted insurance.  From what I've heard being in CA the dude had been undocking shooting people then when they started to put a dent in his tank he would just dock up again.  He had been doing this all day supposedly after LV lost the station he tried to do it again realized he was screwed and instead of letting them get the kill mail self destructed. Supposedly there's other LV capitals stuck in the station as well. Amusingly the station is now named I Didn't Want that Dread Anyways in honor of him or at least it was when last I saw it.

As to how well LV is doing it seems to be going very poorly I've been in 20ish roving gangs and they're refusing to undock even with greater numbers in the system and carriers around etc.  The quality of ships we're seeing them fly has deteriorated significantly as well mostly t1 stuff with mediocre named items like malkulth launchers etc. Several contracts up as well in LV stations trying to clear out a bunch of t2 items from what I saw.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 21, 2007, 02:09:06 AM
I thought self-destructing annulled any insurance?

Anyway, LV are dead men walking (as was bleedin' obvious since the start, their EVE-O board warriors notwithstanding). BoB have no right to be upset that their buffer is evaporating, though - they pretty much abandoned LV to RedSwarm as soon as D2 + the rest of the North made their move.

Speaking of the EVE-O forums, has anyone else noticed that the worse the things are going for BoB, the more forum trolls & gimmick posters appear in CAOD doing their best to get threads locked?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on February 21, 2007, 10:26:36 AM
he tried to do it again realized he was screwed and instead of letting them get the kill mail self destructed.

Absolutely retarded, I knew LV were big K:L ratio whores but that takes the biscuit.  I'd have been tanking the best I could and desperately trying to find someone in the alliance to pop a cyno.

I thought self-destructing annulled any insurance?

Never has AFAIK.  Always got default payouts when I was pod jumping.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 21, 2007, 12:26:42 PM
Well, I learnt something today. :)

Oh, and LV just lost sovereignty in two of their systems - namely their home system and the one where they used to have their capital shipyards. They're complaining about hax, cheating GMs and node crashes as per usual.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on February 21, 2007, 01:00:10 PM
Well, I learnt something today. :)

Oh, and LV just lost sovereignty in two of their systems - namely their home system and the one where they used to have their capital shipyards. They're complaining about hax, cheating GMs and node crashes as per usual.

The Dev-Swarm shit is especially funny to me as we seemed to never get a fucking break from CCP.  For example when we barely had any high skillpoint players and our only defence against T2 snipers chipping away fleets was to drop cans on their warp ins, we had a GM (then a senior GM when we escalated it) tell us that wasn't allowed an the maximum we could deploy was like 4.  That was after dropping something like 10-15 cans on an XZH gate, but LV can get away with 23 bubbles, 400 ships and god only knows how many drones. 


Title: Re: War
Post by: angry.bob on February 21, 2007, 01:44:54 PM
Deleted. There's only so many ways to cal people stupid cunts before it just sounds bitter.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on February 21, 2007, 03:39:16 PM
Well, I learnt something today. :)

Oh, and LV just lost sovereignty in two of their systems - namely their home system and the one where they used to have their capital shipyards. They're complaining about hax, cheating GMs and node crashes as per usual.

Had to repost this for your viewing plesure:

Quote
Originally Posted by LV Alliance mails
2007.02.21 03:16
THE TOWERES ALL GOT BUGGED 3 DAYS AGO... WE PEITIONED... TODAY CCP RESET EVERY TOWER... BUT WHILE THEY WERE BUGGED... THE SYSTEM HAD NO SOV... THE ENEMY SAW IT AND SHOT THE STATION.


2007.02.21 19:00
Hi,

No GM reset the LV POS in the system, this simply did not happen. We will not be moving any items out of the system.

Best Regards,
GM Faolchu
EVE Online Customer Support



2007.02.21 19:14

Hi,

The node was reset which would have fixed the problem your alliance was experiencing with the POS. But your alliance decided to offline and online the POS, this reset the sovereignty timer.

This has been discussed amongst both the gms and senior gms. You will recieve the same response from a senior.

If you wish to have the petition escalated, you need to read the following link: http://kb.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=29' that contains our escalation policy.

If you still want the petition to be escalate I will escalate it.

Best Regards,
GM Faolchu
EVE Online Customer Support

LV leadership reset those POSes on their own because they're stupid then cry all day about goonhaxx news at 10.  Fun that they wanted their stuff magically teleported away rather than the stations back too.  :-)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 21, 2007, 04:19:19 PM
Ha, awesome.  Fuck LV, they always were way too self righteous.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 22, 2007, 06:23:49 AM
There' a couple of LV footsoldiers on another messageboard I post to, and they're flaming me for being mean about LV.

"Being mean" roughly translates as calling them out on their 'ZOMG GMs cheat lolz devswarm' line, and pointing out that their directors are lying to them by telling the rank-and-file to hold the line, it's not over yet, we have not yet begun to fight and so on while the directors are busily stuffing the cargo holds of anything that can fly with BPOs etc while dumping anything too bulky to carry onto the market at firesale prices.

It's going to be an awesome dramabomb once the general membership of LV figures out what's really going on.

Edit: Yeah, if anyone's in good stead with Redswarm and has liquid assets, I'd suggest that you go down to (ex-)LV space and start buying.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Chenghiz on February 22, 2007, 12:12:50 PM
Someone in GS got a Megathron with T2 fittings for 150 million down there. I wish I was subbed and liquid right now, hehe.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yegolev on February 23, 2007, 09:37:55 AM
ZOMG FIRESALE, too bad I'm not blue.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on February 23, 2007, 10:50:13 AM
Gotta tell Molle, I see an oppurtunity here:D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 23, 2007, 01:42:17 PM
Here is some news, D2 has a new Titan http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=481107 .  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 23, 2007, 01:53:42 PM
Here is some news, D2 has a new Titan http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=481107 .  :-D
You know, reading about what it took to take down a Titan -- what's it take to take down another capital ship?

If I had a dread, and was awake and at the keyboard, how much effort is it to take me down?

What about a mothership?

Carrier?

Am I forgetting any? I still fly cruisers for a living (not even T2, curses!) but I'm a bit curious as to what it'd take if I was scooting around in one of the bigger ships to kick my ass.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Miasma on February 23, 2007, 02:05:12 PM
What happens when someone wants to log off, can you dock those things, or do they wink out of existence, or are they just floating there waiting to be destroyed while you sleep?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 23, 2007, 02:12:42 PM
What happens when someone wants to log off, can you dock those things, or do they wink out of existence, or are they just floating there waiting to be destroyed while you sleep?
They wink out 60 seconds after you log off -- or 60 seconds after your aggression timer ends, whichever happens last.

Aggression timers can be reset by doing damage to them (or them doing damage to someone else) during a timer. However, if you have no timer and are logged off, your aggression timer can't be spotted.

So if you fly a Titan, and you want to log off, you spend 20 minutes or so inside a POS shield to make sure your timers are off, then warp to a safespot and log off.

However, just to be careful you:

1) Start your tank before you log off.
2) Let your corp know to check you on the buddy list to make sure you actually log.
3) Check your damage logs to make sure some spy didn't hit you with a tiny smartbomb as you warped.

Generally, if one if flying a big ship, one should be a bit paranoid and do it all.

Quick question: Can you warp from inside a POS's shields? Because D2's dead Titan was pinged outside the POS shields (you can't get hit inside them).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 23, 2007, 02:20:57 PM
They wink out of existence when you logoff normally. If your under the aggression timer from combat, you'll still be in space for 15-20 minutes or so after you log. This is how D2's first titan was killed, the pilot went to log for the day and got pegged by a covert ship with an incredibly tiny amount of damage and never noticed the ship or the damage. Log off, ship stays in space, BoB's capital fleet downs the titan.

As to capital difficulty, I don't have any concrete numbers other then you would need many capitals of your own and/or a large BShip/Support fleet. Carriers are probably the easiest to kill, Dreads are more difficult to down in terms of firepower needed to be brought to bear, but if they get caught in siege mode they are pretty much sitting ducks is my understanding.


MotherShips and Titans would be immensely difficult to kill in actual combat. You would need purpose built fleets full of every ship type to bring them down in a straight up fight. Both MotherShips and Titans are EW immune, so the only way to keep them from warping off is bubbles and bumping... and bumping is questionable (Nano dread ftw?). You would also need enough energy vamps/neuts to suck away the ships cap to prevent jumping away and/or tanking.

I think there has only been 1 mothership to actually die in combat to date, and no titans. Other Titan kills were results of aggression timer "exploiting" for lack of a better term.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 23, 2007, 03:33:36 PM
Here is a mothership going down.  The huge things that appear after the swirling white stuff is a fleet of dreadnoughts being cynoed in.

http://eve-files.com/dl/88720 (http://eve-files.com/dl/88720)

The ship going down was almost certainly due to a bug: the pilot shot down the first inty to go for him, then says he has screenshots showing him as warped to a POS, but somehow still taking damage.  This is, with the current state of the game, very believable.  It would also explain why, after seeing that he was spotted, and taking out the threat, he would apparently sit there and allow himself to be destroyed without replying or manuevring.  Hopefully he'll get the ship back.  Not that LV will care by then, as they'll be bounced back to Empire or BoB space long before that happens.

In more good news for the coalition, D2 have another Titan.  I'm intrigued as to whther this is a fresh build or a reimbursment for the one BoB blew up with the aggression timer sploit.  Discussion is here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=481106).  To see it doomsdaying, here is ze link (http://asw.rootofevil.org/emily.wmv).  Assuming you have time for a 90+MB wmv, of course.  I rather think that they should be using the titan to shift fleets around and provide mobile cloning support, while keeping it well out of harm's wau, but I suppose they needed to show they are back, since D2 are having the toughest fight holding BoD's attention by playing Russia to BoD's Germany while the rest of the Coalition hammers LV (or "Italy", in this analogy).

Edi: corrected file descriptions


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 23, 2007, 04:22:31 PM
They built it, which isn't really surprising. D2 and friends have nearly as much space as BoB, and their space isn't a warzone, and hasn't been for a long time now. Wouldn't be surprised if they crank Titans out every month or so. Now, do they have people to actually fly them? That I don't know.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 23, 2007, 04:36:46 PM
Desperation takes hold. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=481166&page=1)  :roflcopter:

Edit: Further details - Seems like LV were discussing terms of their surrender (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=3560&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90) to the Goons, and this was their final answer.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 23, 2007, 04:46:25 PM
Desperation takes hold. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=481166&page=1)  :roflcopter:

I couldn't believe the last-throw mentality it represents.  Basicallly, it lists just about everything that they've fucked up in the war so far and blames each and every event on devs.

That said, as someone on the SA The Mittani is a Spanner thread pointed out (the infamous happydayz?), it is a function of how badly CCP handled the BoD scandal that every single gameplay difficulty is, for quite some time, going to result in the losing corp's leaders rallying the troops by claiming the GMs are batting for the other side.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 23, 2007, 05:09:41 PM
Bizarre, LV folded in like 3 weeks.

Keep the updates coming.


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 23, 2007, 05:14:49 PM
Eve makes the best drama.  I barely know what all the abbreviations mean, but even I love reading this shit.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 23, 2007, 05:17:00 PM
Bizarre, LV folded in like 3 weeks.

Keep the updates coming.

Well, this just got posted across from the GF forums to the public SA ones, so I suppose it's declassified now :)

The Mittani is head of Goonfleet's intelligence agency.  I think that he's speaking to corp leaders in LV, though not LV leaders themselves (Lallante/Chowdown etc).

-------

[18:46:12] Vile rat > ale this is the mittani
[18:46:18] Mrs Trustworthy > hay mittani >_>
[18:46:18] The Mittani > Greetings. I am the Mittani, and you're the poor guy who has to clean up Chowdown and Lallante's mess, am I correct?
[18:46:20] Vile rat > he can make firm decisions for Gs
[18:46:57] Ale Tricio > greetings
[18:47:05] The Mittani > How may I be of service today?
[18:47:35] Ale Tricio > well lv's pretty much dead atm
[18:47:40] Ale Tricio > chow's away lalante writing exams
[18:47:56] Ale Tricio > so i'm trying to save 80% of my guys leaving the game
[18:48:08] The Mittani > And BoB has extended an offer to LV to regroup in AZN and counterattack at C3
[18:48:16] Ale Tricio > is there any chance of letting our guys retrieve their assets
[18:48:25] Ale Tricio > sure they have
[18:48:27] The Mittani > judging by the corp and alliance mails of yours I've been reading, and the teamspeak meetings
[18:48:59] Ale Tricio > tbh many are not as keen on becoming meat shields
[18:49:20] The Mittani > You see, for us, this isn't personal with LV. Some of our younger guys don't like LV, but the reason I broke the pos nap was because of Chowdown sucking off DBP in that chatlog
[18:49:37] The Mittani > at that moment it became apparent that he was taking LV towards being BOB pets, so we invaded
[18:49:44] The Mittani > So when we discuss getting your assets out
[18:50:10] The Mittani > keep in mind that my only interest in this is making sure what remains of LV stays the fuck out of this war and no longer helps BoB in any way
[18:50:15] The Mittani > Because it is personal with them.
[18:51:40] Ale Tricio > ok though could be difficlut to arrange
[18:51:40] Vile rat > not better.
[18:52:18] Ale Tricio > essentially we have nowhere lef tto live and nobody left willing to fight
[18:52:48] The Mittani > If you guys fuck off to empire, we won't follow you. Or move to the new regions or break up as an alliance, we won't chase you
[18:53:07] The Mittani > but if you become BoB pets we're going to obliterate BoB and then hound everyone who helped them into quitting the game
[18:53:29] The Mittani > Because I'm vindictive as hell and so is Remedial and I have 3000 people who are bloodthirsty and hate all of you.
[18:53:34] The Mittani > SO
[18:53:59] The Mittani > I want this go work out like this: somehow we reach an arrangement where you can demonstrate to me that LV will affirmatively not help out BoB in this war
[18:54:03] The Mittani > that you are OUT of the war
[18:54:04] The Mittani > period
[18:54:06] The Mittani > full stop
[18:54:23] The Mittani > Withdraw what you can to empire, make an announcement on eve-o that you are no longer aiding BoB in any way
[18:54:45] The Mittani > This sound reasonable so far?
[18:55:22] Ale Tricio > well it kind of robs us of a nice clean fight later
[18:55:32] Ale Tricio > but i can put it to the ceo's and see what they offer
[18:55:50] Vile rat > You speak as an LV rep or a m. corp rep
[18:55:52] The Mittani > There is no clean fight happening here. We are out to murder BoB and every one of the cheating scumsuckers on their side
[18:56:01] The Mittani > Purely in game, of course.
[18:56:22] The Mittani > But this is a combined "purge the unclean" effort between us, D2, and the rest of EVE. Being on BoB's side here is NOT where you want to be
[18:56:46] The Mittani > Unless you want me to bring out the whole "Lallante hired a hacker to get at our forums" dirt and really drag LV's remaining reputation through the mud
[18:57:01] The Mittani > Ideally you would want to withdraw with dignity, and not be slaves or vassals.
[18:57:33] The Mittani > Since we're the victors and we write the history, we can really write you into an awful, awful place if this goes poorly for you.
[18:57:33] Ale Tricio > ok well thats all i can offer the ceo's
[18:57:56] The Mittani > Well, here's the sweetener.
[18:57:58] Ale Tricio > it would take a day or get them all sorted atm
[18:58:19] The Mittani > If you DO withdraw from BoB, and announce it... doesn't have to be all of LV, could just be a corp by corp thing
[18:58:35] The Mittani > we can easily arrange for you to recover your assets once your intentions have been proven to be legitimate.
[19:00:05] Ale Tricio > thats going to be a tough decision to convince them of
[19:00:09] Ale Tricio > as with you
[19:00:15] Ale Tricio > there are many bitter people in lv
[19:00:23] Ale Tricio > all i can do is offer it to them atm
[19:00:42] The Mittani > Sure thing. And remember if you want it just for your corp, just leave LV and annoucne your withdrawal and we'll cut a deal
[19:00:59] The Mittani > It'd suck to see LV, a former power bloc, reduced to 'slave' status
[19:01:10] The Mittani > better to just die against RA than live in chains
[19:02:10] Ale Tricio > ok well I'll put the offer on the table
[19:02:20] Ale Tricio > and see what the ceo's have to say

-------

Harsh terms.  Almost, but not quite, unconditional surrender.  There are more chatlogs there that he's posted, where you can see the suave bastard saying "hey, and they expected you to do their dirty work on Valentine;s night then blamed you when it all went wrong" etc...  He's a one man (or is he?) good cop/bad cop act.

Edit: "The Mittani > judging by the corp and alliance mails of yours I've been reading, and the teamspeak meetings"  Way to rub in your total penetration of the enemy's collapsing C3 structure. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on February 23, 2007, 06:21:40 PM
For those playing the Home Game, F13 is no longer wardecced. The "mercs" must've gotten bored or something as they didn't pay the war fee.

Victoly!  :-D
I assume the POS is intact?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 23, 2007, 09:44:25 PM
Wait... what? http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=481258

LV suing Goonswarm? This has to be too stupid to be true... right?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 23, 2007, 10:11:47 PM
For those playing the Home Game, F13 is no longer wardecced. The "mercs" must've gotten bored or something as they didn't pay the war fee.

Victoly!  :-D
I assume the POS is intact?

If by "intact" you mean "blown to 1000 pieces and LV won't pay us back", then yes. LV is a cleared target for F13, last I checked.

But what do I know, I'm Goonfleet now. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 23, 2007, 10:13:39 PM
F13's POS was asploded by LV for absolutely no reason at all - thus the low opinions of LV that we have here.  I think it was entirely unrelated to the mercenary corp that wardecced them.

And lawsuits for infiltrating a corp/teamspeak?   Are LV's members completely insane?  How can a major power crumble so damn fast and with such whining?

On a semi-related note, I actually respect Bob (gasp) for their near-complete LACK of forum presence during this war.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on February 23, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Quote
How can a major power crumble so damn fast and with such whining?


That's the thing of it, most major alliances just aren't. They think they are, they look like they are, they act like they are, but when push comes to shove, they are pretenders. The only alliances that seem to actually be major powers are BoB, RA and maybe D2,  have to see more from them in actual war now. Most people in 0.0 have their space simply because no one has taken it away from them. Size, reputation and posturing are what most 0.0 entities get by with.

Most are woefully inept and it is made apparent as soon as they come under fire from one of the actual powers in space.


-edit-

As to BoB not forum whoring, my guess is that is a purely strategic move at this point. With all the bad press BoB has gotten recently, combined with the already significant amount of BoB hate from before, there really isn't anything BoB could possibly say that wouldn't just add fuel to the fire at this point.



Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 25, 2007, 05:35:26 PM
I demand more Eve drama.  That stuff with that Mittani giving a "lamentations of your women" speech was good shit.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on February 25, 2007, 06:48:54 PM
RA got scammed out of a mothership and had a pod with a full set of slave implants destroyed by a SMASH scammer. RA has now attacked SMASH, or up until this point, were allies.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on February 25, 2007, 07:08:44 PM
RA got scammed out of a mothership and had a pod with a full set of slave implants destroyed by a SMASH scammer. RA has now attacked SMASH, or up until this point, were allies.
How the fuck do you scam someone out of a mothership?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on February 25, 2007, 08:06:03 PM
Maybe SMASH offered to rig it and then killed the guy and stole the ship or he was inside one of their POSes.

---

I like to think I podded the SMASH alliance leader's girlfriend. Right after that he showed up with a blob in local and started talking trash. Probably just a coincidence though.

2007.02.19 04:27

Victim: happygir
Alliance: SMASH Alliance
Corp: Keepers of the Holy Bagel
Destroyed: Capsule
System: Jita
Security: 0.9

Involved parties:

Name: Stone Burner (laid the final blow)
Security: 1.2
Alliance: Privateer Alliance
Corp: Privateers
Ship: Thorax
Weapon: Heavy Neutron Blaster I


Title: Re: War
Post by: Johny Cee on February 25, 2007, 08:50:31 PM
I like to think I podded the SMASH alliance leader's girlfriend.

Heh.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 26, 2007, 01:58:58 AM
Maybe SMASH offered to rig it and then killed the guy and stole the ship...
From what I understand, this is pretty much what happened.

Mind you, the bloke involved (at the SMASH end) is a known scammer who's done this before so it's partially the SMASH directors' fault for inviting him into their alliance anyway. I'd expect a retreat to Empire space and several grovelling apologies by SMASH in the near future.

Edit: LV launched a brief counter-attack and retook one of their stations for a couple of hours - which was just long enough for them to grab everything out of their hangers and quit the system.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 26, 2007, 03:42:01 AM
I demand more Eve drama.  That stuff with that Mittani giving a "lamentations of your women" speech was good shit.

Well, a bunch of renters got put into a corp for convenience by LV a while ago (you can manage standings easily, tax them at a different rate etc).  The corp was called Distant Star Alliance.  To continue the barbarian motif, they just found themselves as the Britons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romano-British) to LV's Honorius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorius_(emperor)), and got told "you're on your own now: make peace with the horde or defend yourselves."  LV handed over the CEO position the day before Goonswarm demanded surrender and scarpered.

DSA posted some defiant stuff on the boards, one of them an in-character, RP thing (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=482128), saying that they would never abandon their ex-patrons, and would fight on.  Reading the post, it seems to have been a close-run thing among members that swung on the size of a 3.6bn ISK indemnity (the rest of the terms were humiliating, but actually better than those LV had previously imposed on them as renters).  I imagine that the figure (the cost of ten POSes?) was not random, and that the Mittani has their corp penetrated deeply enough to know exactly what they can afford.

In the end, it was foolish showboating from a CEO who should have at least left his options open and stalled for a instead of exposing a largely non-PvP corp to attack.  I can only assume that he was made an offer (perhaps with personal sweeteners) by the BoB side.  Understandably, Goonfleet's Vile Rat quickly posted to say that "...our offer is off the table. Pack your crap up and get back to empire."  The rather meek reply from DSA?  "Yeah, that kinda went without saying."

This continues the collapse of LV, who are now just sneak-attacking stations to retreive possessions then scarpering back to Empire.  The result is that Goonfleet are looking at having to integrate new space several times bigger than their original holdings, quickly enough to use it to stage the next attack on BoB.  Since a lot of the directors are Libertarians, their method is summed up by Remedial's post:

Quote from: Remedial
Dear Ally of GoonSwarm,

On March 1st GoonSwarm begins a "Free Trade Zone" program throughout all the space it holds. This means that anybody who has +5 or greater standing to GoonSwarm may trade, mine, produce, and rat in every belt and every station that GoonSwarm holds.

There are only three rules that your pilots must follow when in GoonSwarm space:

1) You must not shoot anybody or be a jerk to anyone who is friendly to GoonSwarm. We will announce a webpage soon that has all relevant positive standings for your convenience.
2) You may not deploy any POS in our space.
3) If a GoonFLEET member (not GoonSwarm, just Fleet) asks your pilot(s) to leave a belt, they must.

That's all. You may rat, mine, produce, trade, whatever to your heart's content in GoonSwarm space beginning March 1st. Feel free to post this on your forums or corp/alliance mail.

Please contact Vile Rat, Blitter, or Remedial for any questions or concerns.

Sincerely,
Remedial

I posted this in our private War forum recently, as part of my ongoing campaign to get us in with the Redswarm for pewpew, lawlz and profit  :-D  It seems a smart move to me: offering neutrals the choice between aligning with BoB, whose structure is rigid, elitist and in some parts EULA-breakingly communist (shared accounts) or Redswarm, with the potential chance to have 0.0 space to explore, without even rental.  They are also, I imagine, trying to set up powerful secondary markets in their space.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Teleku on February 26, 2007, 04:27:05 AM
How long before the "free trade" zone is completly overrun with pirate ganker corps or even large corps looking for a new home?  Heh.  Still, nice idea, but with the way Eve is set up, I just dont think it will really work (cool if they can though).  Will be interesting to see what the political map of the south looks like after this is all said and done.  Hell of alot of territory being thrown into chaos.

And while I love READING about Eve wars/drama, the way that Mattani guy was talking is why I hope BoB ends up beating their asses.  Its a fucking game you egotistical jackasses.  I think if BoB actually wins/survives the "cleansing" that he, and many other people on the forums, would actually kill themselves IRL. 

And that would make me giggle.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 26, 2007, 05:44:21 AM
The need for corps to be +5 in standing to use the FTZ is protection against exploitation.  There is some discussion on SA as to how effective the traditional Goon blob will be when there is a wider area to cover, but they'll actively welcome conflict.  The problem for the Goons would be if they didn't have an external threat.

And I suspect that you're way off base re the dynamics of a BoB victory.  The Goons In Space have been close to being wiped out, once already (as have their current allies, RA).  That was largely at the encouragement of LV, who decided to try and camp them out of the game.  In the event (unlikely, I think) that the momentum shifted entirely in the other direction, GF would survive, even if a bit smaller.

As to the motivations of the Mittani, do you really think that someone as in your description could rise to power in a Goon operation?  I take it that you read the SA forums?!?  It's BoB, and people like their leader Sir Molle, who take this very, very seriously (read some of his hilariously pompous posts on the Eve-O CAOD board for evidence).  Honestly: read Eve-O and you'll get why BoB have managed to provoke an alliance of quite so much of the game (many of them long-term enemies of each other) against them.  What the Mittani was doing there was just normal, good, hardball negotiation using the other parties' desires and insecurities.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Teleku on February 26, 2007, 06:10:35 AM
Eh?  I'm wasnt really discussing anything about a BoB victory other than I'd like to see them survive (nothing about the Goons getting taken out) because it would piss off a good hunk of the 0.0 crowd who, as you seem to agree, take the game WAY to seriously.  A BoB loss just pisses off BoB, who are the smaller minority.  I do, unfortunatly, read the Eve-O forums, which is why I want the majority of those players pissed off, since a shit ton of the players in/leading 0.0 corps all talk exactly like Sir Molle.  And yes, I have an SA account and read the forums, which is why I know that there are plenty of wackos in there ;).  But, as I even said before, I like the Goons (and SA overall).

And come on:
Quote
[18:55:52] The Mittani > There is no clean fight happening here. We are out to murder BoB and every one of the cheating scumsuckers on their side

[18:57:01] The Mittani > Ideally you would want to withdraw with dignity, and not be slaves or vassals.

18:57:33] The Mittani > Since we're the victors and we write the history, we can really write you into an awful, awful place if this goes poorly for you.

I hope he gets kicked in the balls.  Christ.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tkinnun0 on February 26, 2007, 07:17:19 AM
Anyone who writes:

Quote
[18:55:52] The Mittani > There is no clean fight happening here. We are out to murder BoB and every one of the cheating scumsuckers on their side
[18:56:01] The Mittani > Purely in game, of course.

can't be taking the game very seriously. Come on, he's roleplaying!


Title: Re: War
Post by: tazelbain on February 26, 2007, 07:21:56 AM
How does one get +5 with a player corp?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 26, 2007, 07:31:29 AM
Anyone who writes:

Quote
[18:55:52] The Mittani > There is no clean fight happening here. We are out to murder BoB and every one of the cheating scumsuckers on their side
[18:56:01] The Mittani > Purely in game, of course.

can't be taking the game very seriously. Come on, he's roleplaying!

Quite so.  You can tell he's a lawyer though, IRL, when he remembers to add the disclaimer "Purely in game, of course."  Just in case one of the Goon Legion decides that it is a call to rid him of this turbulent priest.

How does one get +5 with a player corp?

Well, I've never been a corp director, so the technicalities are beyond me, but it is some magical standings button that they press, to arbitrarily set standings.  It's not like the NPC corps, that way.  No two months grinding delivery missions for level 3 Against All Authorities distribution agents ("Comrade, breeeng me the entrailz of my enemeez...")

Edit:
I do, unfortunatly, read the Eve-O forums, which is why I want the majority of those players pissed off, since a shit ton of the players in/leading 0.0 corps all talk exactly like Sir Molle.

Uhm, you want the Goons to lose because too many people in 0.0 speak like the leader of their enemies?

The biggest angstfest of pissed-off 0.0ers will be if BoB, MC, LV and Xelas get pounded.  Then, you shall get your wish.  I omit FiX because I suspect they have an exit strategy.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 26, 2007, 07:44:00 AM
Anyone who writes:

Quote
[18:55:52] The Mittani > There is no clean fight happening here. We are out to murder BoB and every one of the cheating scumsuckers on their side
[18:56:01] The Mittani > Purely in game, of course.

can't be taking the game very seriously. Come on, he's roleplaying!
Plus, you know: "There are no Goons. Goodbye".


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 26, 2007, 09:36:32 AM
How does one get +5 with a player corp?

Well, I've never been a corp director, so the technicalities are beyond me, but it is some magical standings button that they press, to arbitrarily set standings.  It's not like the NPC corps, that way.  No two months grinding delivery missions for level 3 Against All Authorities distribution agents ("Comrade, breeeng me the entrailz of my enemeez...")

This is correct. There is a tab that shows up when you get a certain role which has a magic standings button on it. When you press it, you can adjust the other corp's standings from -10 to +10 and attach a reason; the change is effective immediately and is logged for auditing purposes.

This also works with alliances.

Anyway, as for the negotiations, yeah, he's mostly being a hardass to show LV "da bidness". Outside of the public eye he's quite a bit less Serious Business and much more obviously mock-serious.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on February 27, 2007, 02:29:47 AM
More news - two (now ex-)LV corps have left that alliance rather than follow BoB's rules (namely the one which states corps must be either a PvP corp or a PvE corp, not both), most of the rest of LV is fleeing to Empire or Stain, and the core PvP people are remembering the Alamo in a system right in the path from Redswarm to BoB-space.

Surprisingly enough, the location for their Glorious Last Stand was suggested to them by...their liason manager from BoB. Although there is something satifying about LV acting as someone else's meatshield for a change - a karmic debt bewing repaid to the rest of the old South, perhaps. ;)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 27, 2007, 04:24:23 AM
Meaningful PVP, Eve-Style:

Now that must have hurt (http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/18692).  I can just imagine the pilot screaming at his computer screen when the Goons got enough scrambler points on it (I think Buzzards have 2 or 3 free points of warp core stabilisers, no?).

Explanation: the buzzard is a blockade runner, for moving high value cargo through risky space.  The stuff you see in his cargo hold is generally pretty pricy, especially stuff like the cloaking device.  The real bugger would be if some of those blueprints were originals.  If so, that could shift his loss into the billions+ range.  I wonder what came out of the kill as loot.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vedi on February 27, 2007, 07:51:38 AM
(I think Buzzards have 2 or 3 free points of warp core stabilisers, no?).

They have 2 extra points, and they warp fast and are decently agile. They are actually quite hard to kill, especially in empire where you have to lock them as they jump into a system, and then put three warp points on them before they warp off. Even after this, you'd have to web them or they'd just run back to the gate they came from. On mine, I equip a cloaking device so if I see enemies on the gate once you warp in, I can just stay cloaked. I actually feel very safe (perhaps foolishly so) in T2 indies in empire low-sec.

Of course, this was 0.0, so there was probably a warp bubble involved.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ironwood on February 27, 2007, 07:55:01 AM
I so want to play EVE.  The adult in me won't allow it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 27, 2007, 08:05:23 AM
Of course, this was 0.0, so there was probably a warp bubble involved.

As a sane person, you'd think so.  "Unlucky pilot," you might think to yourself.

In fact, Zabernist posted a short account, and it seems the LV bloke undocked from a station with Goons outside, then started to move, couldn't redock in time, got scrambled and webbed, and had to sit there while his nice T2 ship with its nice T2 cargo got plinked by a rifter, a caracal and a merlin. Stupid or panicky.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on February 27, 2007, 01:08:01 PM
(I think Buzzards have 2 or 3 free points of warp core stabilisers, no?).

They have 2 extra points, and they warp fast and are decently agile. They are actually quite hard to kill, especially in empire where you have to lock them as they jump into a system, and then put three warp points on them before they warp off. Even after this, you'd have to web them or they'd just run back to the gate they came from. On mine, I equip a cloaking device so if I see enemies on the gate once you warp in, I can just stay cloaked. I actually feel very safe (perhaps foolishly so) in T2 indies in empire low-sec.

Of course, this was 0.0, so there was probably a warp bubble involved.

Buzzards are Covert Ops. They can warp while cloaked, which is why this guy was going to run valuables with it, as it is usually unparalleled as such. It doesn't have built in warp strength though, that is on certain Tech 2 haulers (transport Ships). The only thing I could see happening as it was camped by those frigates, he foolishly undocked thinking he could cloak and warp, when he cloaked he got bumped (which causes you to uncloak), then he frantically tried to either dock, or warp out (but he was scrambled and being bumped so he couldnt align). 30 secs or less later he was toasted, due to the redocking timer.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yegolev on February 27, 2007, 01:11:25 PM
Hey, I'm a noob and shit, but if I was camping a station, I'd park within 2km of the undocking point.  If I was trying to get out of a station, I'd still wait for an opening even if I had a covops, but hey... I'm just paranoid like that.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 27, 2007, 01:22:03 PM
This is what you get for not having undocking instas.

Lazy noobs.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on February 27, 2007, 03:17:06 PM
This is what you get for not having undocking instas.

Lazy noobs.

/ \
 |
 |

Smarter than your average noob. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 27, 2007, 03:28:28 PM
ISS is in full retreat.  :hello_kitty:

Edit: Aaaand MC "declares" for BoB. Shocked, I tell you. Shocked.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vedi on February 28, 2007, 05:50:39 AM
Buzzards are Covert Ops. They can warp while cloaked, which is why this guy was going to run valuables with it, as it is usually unparalleled as such. It doesn't have built in warp strength though, that is on certain Tech 2 haulers (transport Ships).

Duh, I confused the Buzzard and the Bustard :P. It's a bit more understandable how you could lose a Buzzard than a Bustard to a couple of cruisers. I never use mine for transporting BPs anymore.



Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on February 28, 2007, 01:40:06 PM
WTH is undocking insta?


Title: Re: War
Post by: TheDreamr on February 28, 2007, 01:54:24 PM
WTH is undocking insta?

It's a set of bookmarked co-ordinates inline with the exit vector of the station, often several thousand km distant - letting a ship jump to warp almost instantly upon undocking, partly due to the initial burst of speed when you undock but also due to your ship being in the perfect alignment for warp.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on February 28, 2007, 02:09:04 PM
I'd be happy to bet that he did have an undocking insta, but that a couple of hundred feet dead ahead of the tube there were a few strategically-placed cans called "hamshipment [lwtax]".


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on February 28, 2007, 02:51:45 PM
I'd be happy to bet that he did have an undocking insta, but that a couple of hundred feet dead ahead of the tube there were a few strategically-placed cans called "hamshipment [lwtax]".

Shouldn't matter; I know you don't collide with other ships during the invulnerable part of the undocking sequence, and I believe that carries across to containers. If you use an undocking insta, you should go to warp instantly, and while warping you similarly don't collide.

Pretty much the only way to stop is is with interdictors/warp disrupt bubbles.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on February 28, 2007, 02:58:03 PM
As to the motivations of the Mittani, do you really think that someone as in your description could rise to power in a Goon operation?  I take it that you read the SA forums?!?  It's BoB, and people like their leader Sir Molle, who take this very, very seriously (read some of his hilariously pompous posts on the Eve-O CAOD board for evidence).
To take EVE-O posts from Molle & Co on face value is just as naive as taking Mittani's and Remedial's posts on EVE-O and around on the face value. For about the same reasons.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on February 28, 2007, 04:44:36 PM
I so want to play EVE.  The adult in me won't allow it.

I never paid any attention to EVE until I read up on the dev's cheating with some of them playing the game in most powerful corp.  I think that's pretty fucked up, it's strange that in the end I got sucked into the game politics and I'm now playing it.  I'm a great believer in the playerbase being able to enforce their own rules in a pvp game, it normally doesn't happen but with SA involved and the whole game based on one server, it sure looks like BOB is going to be wiped out.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 01, 2007, 01:28:29 AM
I'd be happy to bet that he did have an undocking insta, but that a couple of hundred feet dead ahead of the tube there were a few strategically-placed cans called "hamshipment [lwtax]".

Shouldn't matter; I know you don't collide with other ships during the invulnerable part of the undocking sequence, and I believe that carries across to containers. If you use an undocking insta, you should go to warp instantly, and while warping you similarly don't collide.

Pretty much the only way to stop is is with interdictors/warp disrupt bubbles.

Yep, but the guy with the killmail said on the forums that he thought the guy had moved immediately after undocking, so that would, if I understand correctly, be him stuffed?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 01, 2007, 02:28:55 AM
Apologies for the double post, but I thought this might interest a few.  The first round of the Goon Free trade Zone has been announced (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=483930):

Quote
As of today, 1st of March, Goonswarm stations in Scalding Pass as well as Tau Ceti Federation Stations in Wicked Creek as well as economical resources in asteroid belts are open to our allies. Anyone with a standing 5 or greater in Goonswarm or Tau Ceti Federation may trade, produce, rat and mine in those regions.

Hopefully this is just a first step toward a much larger free trade zone and the end of feudalism in Eve, and it is our wish to further develop ties and mutually beneficial trading agreement with other entities in Eve.

For any question regarding the free trade zone, feel free to contact : Remedial, Vile Rat, Blitter in Goonswarm or Frederik, Amerame, Latton CALLAN, Raul Necrobie in TCF

Each region of the free trade zone will come with a (simple) set of rules, the current rules for WC and SP are the following :

Scalding Pass
1) You cannot deploy PoS.
2) Right of Refusal : If a GoonSwarm member asks you to leave a system, you are to comply.
3) All friendlies must abide by the standings page that GoonSwarm will publish soon and not shoot other friendlies, on pain of expulsion

Wicked Creek
1) You cannot deploy PoS without TCF's formal authorization.
2) SO-X5L is a TCF-only system.

More regions will be made available to the free trade zone members shortly.


FAQ

Quote

Detorid, Tenerifis, Omist and 7-K will be similarly open in a few weeks; we will announce that at the second round of FTZ talks.

FTZ FAQ:

Q: Uh, why should I care?
A: Low taxes at refining stations, no docking fees, office rental, the largest market in 0.0 and rampant capitalism. Ratting and mining in thousands of belts in deep 0.0.

Q: OK, I want in. Is this just for your e-buddies, or can my corp get some of this hot isk-generating action?
A: Contact one of the people in the above list to see about acquiring access to the FTZ. It's initially open to anyone with +5 standing, but you can arrange those standings through our FTZ representatives.

Q: This is only for friends. Call it something else, it's not free!
A: "Friends Free Trade Zone", "+5 Standings Trade Area", "Neon Green Goldfish", call it what you like. We don't care.

Q: What about pirates and defense? Will I get ganked? Will heroic goons come save me? Can I blame goons if I get blown up in their space?
A: It's 0.0, we make no guarantees on your safety. There will be goons running about blowing stuff up. Maybe they save you, maybe they don't.

Q: Just two regions? When will we have MORE FREE STUFF?
A: 7-K, Detorid, Tenerifis and Omist will be open for the FTZ shortly, perhaps within a week or two.

Q: HAY ISNT THAT LV TERRITORY DERP DERP?
A: LV still controls some stations in Detorid, Tenerifis and Omist. As a result, we're not opening the regions yet.

Q: Are GS/TCF NBSI?
A: Yes. Come here and you'll be shot if you're not at + standings. We're awful mean griefing pirates.

Q: This is just like ISS rololol
A: Yeah, but we killed them and this is a better business model anyway. Shares and IPOs are silly.

Q: hurf durf i kil gooniez
A: We hope to see you soon.

Btw, some acronyms:
+5 - Setting a standing so that when an alliance member looks at their ship on the overview or in space they are predisposed not to gank them.
NBSI - Not Blue Shoot It, meaning if they're not allied they're targets, as opposed to NRDS, Not Red Don't Shoot, meaning if they aren't enemies, don't kill them.
LV - Lokta Volterra, current victims of the swarm
ISS - Another grouping who tried to run a neutral free trading zone (with an IPO for gullible suckers) but flew too close to the Band of Brothers' sun and just surrendered.
GS - Goonswarm, duh.
TCF - Tau Ceti Federation, Frenchies in space, currently part of the Coalition.
POS - Player Owned Structure - your happy, kilometres long, space house

Edit: added POS


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on March 01, 2007, 10:10:30 AM
If you want to see painful killmails, look no further.

http://killboard.outbreak-eve.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=249696 (http://killboard.outbreak-eve.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=249696)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 01, 2007, 10:21:13 AM
I'd be happy to bet that he did have an undocking insta, but that a couple of hundred feet dead ahead of the tube there were a few strategically-placed cans called "hamshipment [lwtax]".

Shouldn't matter; I know you don't collide with other ships during the invulnerable part of the undocking sequence, and I believe that carries across to containers. If you use an undocking insta, you should go to warp instantly, and while warping you similarly don't collide.

Pretty much the only way to stop is is with interdictors/warp disrupt bubbles.

Yep, but the guy with the killmail said on the forums that he thought the guy had moved immediately after undocking, so that would, if I understand correctly, be him stuffed?

Yes. If you're a fucking retard and doubleclick in space/click approach on something or try to warp to something while in invulnerably undocking, collision gets turned on and you can be locked/shot/yay!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on March 01, 2007, 10:46:55 AM
If you want to see painful killmails, look no further.

http://killboard.outbreak-eve.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=249696 (http://killboard.outbreak-eve.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=249696)

Someone just quit Eve :)

Wow. Toxin are some bad-asses, i gotta give em that.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on March 01, 2007, 11:10:07 AM
Oh man - that's a lot of cargo. Wonder what dropped.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on March 01, 2007, 11:13:36 AM
Doesn't the cargo get completely destroyed when freighters blow up?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on March 01, 2007, 11:25:53 AM
Nope, it's like a pinata.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on March 01, 2007, 11:32:42 AM
Freighters don't drop anything.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on March 01, 2007, 12:06:17 PM
Is The Scope a part of anything I should know?  And it's weird that outbreak is using 90% domi's. 


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on March 01, 2007, 12:26:38 PM
Is The Scope a part of anything I should know?  And it's weird that outbreak is using 90% domi's. 
Seemed like they swarmed the freighter with drones. It's how I'd do it, but I'm Gallente. We like to fight with disposable ships.

Maybe they're a Gallente corp that really likes drones. I should join.


Title: Re: War
Post by: TheDreamr on March 01, 2007, 12:55:01 PM
Is The Scope a part of anything I should know?

If i recall correctly it's one of the Gallente NPC corps, so not a bad place to stash your hauler alt.


Hold up ... this kill went down in a 0.6 system (Moniyyuku) and the victim was in an NPC corp so they weren't a direct war target - that just leaves the gang wardec method (unlikely these days), or a suicide run against the freighter & concord.

Looking at the ships outbreak were using and reading some of the comments attached to the killmail page I'm thinking this was a hit on an otherwise untouchable freighter.  Wow.


Title: Re: War
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 01, 2007, 01:09:29 PM
If you want to see painful killmails, look no further.

http://killboard.outbreak-eve.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=249696 (http://killboard.outbreak-eve.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=249696)

Are those SHIPS he was carrying? I knew freighters were big, but holy shit!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on March 01, 2007, 01:13:05 PM
If you want to see painful killmails, look no further.

http://killboard.outbreak-eve.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=249696 (http://killboard.outbreak-eve.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=249696)

Are those SHIPS he was carrying? I knew freighters were big, but holy shit!

No - those were EXPEN$IVE $hip$ he was carrying.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 01, 2007, 01:15:45 PM
Every single thing listed as destroyed was Tech2. Some of it is really fucking expensive.

And yes, freighters have over 1m m3 of cargo space with decent skills. A packaged frig is only like 2500m3. Hence the giant list.


Title: Re: War
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 01, 2007, 01:18:23 PM
Good god. That is more isk than I will ever see in my entire EVE career, methinks.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on March 01, 2007, 01:20:52 PM
Yes, those are ships, and T2 weapons and ammo he was carrying.  Freighter can do 750k m3, which in terms of minerals like Veldspar is 75 million units.  Or to put it another way, one freighter can carry the equivalent of 30+ regular haulers (which is what they'd have to bring in if they wanted to scoop all that stuff up and re-sell it).

It certainly looks like it was a suicide attack.  All those battleships, destroyed in the process (it's illegal to try to avoid being destroyed by Concord police in high sec).  Ship to ship, if the freighter costs 1.5 billion, and you lose 18 battleships at 100 mil each, it's not worth it if the freighter is empty. 

I still think I read somewhere that freighters don't drop anything when killed, but even if it did drop everything listed, they would have had to have 20-30 hauler alts at the scene to scoop the stuff up.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on March 01, 2007, 01:29:43 PM
I think I would still be in a corner crying if I lost all that. Repackaged ships lose insurance right?


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on March 01, 2007, 01:31:10 PM
Yeah, none of the cargo was insured.  He was hauling all that stuff to sell it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on March 01, 2007, 01:32:23 PM
Yea - that would be account cancel time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 01, 2007, 02:21:38 PM
It certainly looks like it was a suicide attack.  All those battleships, destroyed in the process (it's illegal to try to avoid being destroyed by Concord police in high sec).  Ship to ship, if the freighter costs 1.5 billion, and you lose 18 battleships at 100 mil each, it's not worth it if the freighter is empty. 

What they did was get a bunch of drone ships to hold off the police while they ganked the freighter.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on March 01, 2007, 02:24:20 PM
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=363

Quote
LV Alliance Leader a GM; Gives Advice On Upcoming T2 BPO Changes to Corpmates

Funny if true.



Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 01, 2007, 02:33:34 PM
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=363

Quote
LV Alliance Leader a GM; Gives Advice On Upcoming T2 BPO Changes to Corpmates

Funny if true.



This is going to be drama-Nagasaki to last month's drama-Hiroshima.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on March 01, 2007, 02:35:38 PM
HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE for that freighter kill. I have no specifics.

Apparently a guy in some corp scammed/did something bad to a certain 0utbreak member. That guy kind of sort of stalked him and found an instance where he's moving a ton of his belongings from one place to another, through a NPC corp freighter guy. His guy or hired I don't know.

They used a ton of doms with a ton of drones out to draw Concord fire. Concord has to appear and whack the drones as well, so it gives you more time to get some damage in. 30ish battleships using the max ammount of drones they can is enough to down a freighter in a Concord-protected area, I guess.

And yes, ships and other T2 things that were being carried around. Rough estimates is about 4B isk lost plus the freighter itself. T1 drone fitted battleships, which were used to gank this thing - about 32M each after insurance.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 01, 2007, 02:45:39 PM
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=363

Quote
LV Alliance Leader a GM; Gives Advice On Upcoming T2 BPO Changes to Corpmates

Funny if true.

Alliance leader and titan pilot.  I love this.  There they are, screaming about "Devswarm" and yet another CCP employee turns out to be giving them orders.

And yeah, from the look of it he's been bending the rules to help out his corp, too.  Didn't seem to work too well, though, since they're getting ass-whooped, right now.

But CCP need to say that devs can't be cap-fleet commanders in major alliances, nor can they lead alliances themselves.  Useful as they might consider the data to be, it is a huge conflict of interest.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on March 01, 2007, 04:00:59 PM
I thought the use of drones was mostly because concord can jam and drones don't need anything besides the initial targeting to function.  I mean all the domi's were fit with cheap plates and extenders, they obviously knew exactly what they were hitting and knew it would be in high sec.  I'm impressed how far they were willing to get revenge.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 01, 2007, 04:31:08 PM
More amusing, less dramatic thing from that chatlog: LV are retreating to Stain because they think that the complexes there are unclaimed so they can farm them to rebuild.
Minor flaw in the plan: -A- run all the complexes in Stain.  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Trouble on March 01, 2007, 07:17:11 PM
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=363

Quote
LV Alliance Leader a GM; Gives Advice On Upcoming T2 BPO Changes to Corpmates

Funny if true.



They should make a movie out of htis: The Perfect Shitstorm

It will be interesting to see the outcome.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 01, 2007, 10:28:00 PM
The other piece of the war is happening over in Querious.  The northern allies made a serious play for ED- (the FIX outpost system), BoB showed up with a couple of titans and FIX rolled out everything, after a week of heavy fighting the northerners had managed to plant POS at 2 of the 11 moons in that system, plus some staging POS in nearby systems (they'd taken out POS in a couple of other moons, but didn't manage to get their POS up before we replaced them).  They've apparently given up on ED- for now (all the northern POS are gone from everywhere around ED-) and are focusing on 9CG (a BoB station right in the middle of Q), they've managed to get control of it through some POS-spamming (lots of moons in 9CG). 

KIA has been contracted by FIX to interfere with their empire logistics in the Agil area and has racked up a few hundred kills there (there's been many thousands in Q).  It actually might be a bigger fight than the LV/RedSwarm showdown, but since it's not nearly as fluid and one sided it's not getting as much attention.  Priority of BoB seems to be to fight for every inch while bleeding the north as much as possible and hope that LV can hold out long enough, and/or do enough damage to RedSwarm, that this turns into a repeat of TCAG in the ASCN war (ASCN bled themselves white trying unsuccessfully to take a beachhead in Period Basis, and lost the capacity for effective offensive operations as a result).

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on March 02, 2007, 12:12:03 AM
Interesting to hear the perspective of the other side on the other front of the war.  Look forward to maybe seeing you in space Mahrin :evil:

Wish I had more time to be playing and knew more about exactly what's going on with LV front atm but school calls, oh well week and a half and I'll have time again.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 02, 2007, 01:08:08 AM
The other piece of the war is happening over in Querious.  The northern allies made a serious play for ED-...[snip] They've apparently given up on ED- for now (all the northern POS are gone from everywhere around ED-) and are focusing on 9CG (a BoB station right in the middle of Q), they've managed to get control of it through some POS-spamming (lots of moons in 9CG). 

Yeah, Munky has been talking about the reasoning behind that shift as it went on.  The version from AAA's side is that they weren't getting [edit: their desired type of] fighting - FIX were sensibly avoiding head-on engagements - so they moved to try and provoke BoB.  Is it possible that there was rather more of an element that it's really not the right point on the BoB front to start exposing, say, AAA's dreads alone in siege mode to organised BoB+slaves counter-attacks?  That would inevitably end up with another 15-dead-dreads moment (surely a real danger to GS on the LV front if they get careless in mopping up there, too).  If you have substantial superiority of numbers on the way on another front, why not play at managing your own attrition for a while?  But hey, I don't really understand PoS warfare any more than 95% of the playerbase.


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on March 02, 2007, 02:42:06 PM
I love Eve stories.  I'm half tempted to play, buy a little ship, and just putter around newb space shiftlessly, like Han Solo before he met the rebels.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on March 02, 2007, 06:13:32 PM
free 14 day trial...


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 03, 2007, 05:28:01 AM
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=363

Quote
LV Alliance Leader a GM; Gives Advice On Upcoming T2 BPO Changes to Corpmates

Funny if true.

Inaccurate, if anything. The "advice" in question was posted quite a bit before the player was hired as GM, and it's hardly rocket science either -- anyone with brain would (and did) connect the dots and realize that invention system which was said to become alternative to tech.2 BPO ... would affect the price and profitability of these very BPOs.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Evangolis on March 03, 2007, 06:49:04 AM
Unless somebody slip him details, which is an even more plausible theory, given what we know.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 03, 2007, 07:28:26 AM
Unless somebody slip him details, which is an even more plausible theory, given what we know.
Since even with no insider info it's no brainer invention would affect BPO prices and availability of tech.2 gear it's rather moot point. That would be like getting insider tip shares of company X are going to go up when they've been reporting to public record profits for entire year, or something.

edit: For that matter, the details were posted by dev in charge of that mechanics in the public forum during the test phase iirc, so people could actually test if it works on the test server before it hit the TQ. It's still a sticky in Game Development section, dated 2006.11.24


Title: Re: War
Post by: Teleku on March 03, 2007, 08:29:43 AM
I love Eve stories.  I'm half tempted to play, buy a little ship, and just putter around newb space shiftlessly, like Han Solo before he met the rebels.
Dont bother if thats all your going to do.  You can get the same effect by taping a picture of outspace over the top half of your screen and reading Barrens Chat on the bottom of the screen.


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on March 03, 2007, 08:40:49 AM
I just want to fly around in a badass space jalopy listening to Steve Miller and getting baked with Chewie.  Someone make a game like that please.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 03, 2007, 09:02:23 AM
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=363

Quote
LV Alliance Leader a GM; Gives Advice On Upcoming T2 BPO Changes to Corpmates

Funny if true.

Inaccurate, if anything.
Accurate, if anything.

Fixed that for you (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=441).

I love the whine from CCP there: "boo hoo, we just want to get on with playing the game in morally insupportably influential positions in BoB and LV, spawning ourselves BPOs and using inside information to sell one blueprint for 78.5 billion ISK* before the market crashes.  Why does this whistleblower keep victimising us for our morally dubious behaviour?!?"  CCP and Kugut deserve each other.

*A huge sum: somewhere north of 9000 dollars at IGE bulk prices.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 03, 2007, 10:12:08 AM
Um... you realize that all it says there is that Kugu managed to out a GM, but the player in question wasn't involved in any known malfeasance?

Now, the one thing that is a bit sketchy is that he was still on LV teamspeak as of this week...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 03, 2007, 11:31:41 AM
Um... you realize that all it says there is that Kugu managed to out a GM, but the player in question wasn't involved in any known malfeasance?

Now, the one thing that is a bit sketchy is that he was still on LV teamspeak as of this week...

I dunno... 78.5 billion and advising his corp to sell, sell, sell BPOs is pretty morally dubious to me.  And I really think that, while devs and GMs should play the game, there should be no way they are in strategic positions within their corps or alliances.  Sucks, but human nature has already been demonstrated on several occasions to be too given to indiscretions (BPOs and all-faction-fittted supership, for instances).

It looks like Enslaver was a different GM, but can anyone doubt that GM Sunshine, in particular, has a vested anti-coalition, and particularly anti-Goon interest?


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 03, 2007, 12:45:54 PM
The "Sell, Sell, Sell!" advice isn't particularly scandalous, and didn't require inside info, I was giving similar advice to Dark Shikari around the same time (one of the major plutocrats of Eve, and a member of my corp).  This *has* taken on witch-hunt properties, the "outing" of TheEnslaver served no purpose.  I genuinely believe that if you look deep into the leadership of all the major alliances, you're going to find developers (there are 750 CCP employees, want to bet that none of them are native russian or german speakers?).

That being said, T20 went way beyond the bounds, and it does shake confidence in the entire edifice that he was apparently so senior and effectively impossible to fire.

On the war itself, Sir Molle of BoB gives a good (if slightly slanted) briefing here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=485327).  The scale of this fight is staggerring, tens of thousands of players, trillions of isk.  The coalition is repeating their tactics against ISS (massive assault on multiple fronts), but against BoB it's not working as well.  And both sides have uncommitted reserves, RedSwarm is currently occupied with LV (although the goons made a showing) while the southern tenants have not been engaged.

In many ways, the coalition picked the wrong place to make their push.  Sure, Querious and Fountain both border on Empire space which makes them more reachable for logistics when you're coming from the north, but they also both border Delve, giving BoB the advantage of interior lines (it takes fewer hops to take capitals or fleets from Fountain to Querious via Delve than through Empire).  And the police alliances of both regions are thoroughly dug in and used to fighting against superior numbers.  Both have enough strength to contest the assaults and turn them into a fight, which leaves BoB able to hop from one to the other for classic defeat in detail.

The question is if the coalition is going to reinforce failure and make a renewed push in the southwest (where things are currently back to the status quo ante), and if RedSwarm is going to *also* travel 30 jumps to support that.  The only member of the coalition currently operating close to home is AAA, and it's costing the coalition dearly.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 03, 2007, 01:08:20 PM
Inaccurate, if anything.
Accurate, if anything.

Fixed that for you (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=441).
Afraid you didn't. The allegation I was addressing was "GM gives insider info regarding BPO" while the player in question gave the advice in question *before* he was hired (the post was made around December, player was hired in January) In other words it wasn't GM giving insider info but then-player-now-GM talking with other players about game mechanics.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 03, 2007, 01:49:31 PM
From what I've heard, LV is basically wiped out. Their last stations have their days numbered and are being swarmed. There's also ops against RISE (one of the southern BoB tenants) being run on a daily basis, although I have no idea what their numbers, purpose and efficacy are.

The real fight is going to come to BoB probably in another few weeks. The question is whether D2 can maintain the stalemate of attrition for that long.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 03, 2007, 04:24:11 PM
Inaccurate, if anything.
Accurate, if anything.

Fixed that for you (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=441).
Afraid you didn't. The allegation I was addressing was "GM gives insider info regarding BPO" while the player in question gave the advice in question *before* he was hired (the post was made around December, player was hired in January) In other words it wasn't GM giving insider info but then-player-now-GM talking with other players about game mechanics.

Impressive that you know the dates of those posts since I understood that they're from LV forums and I know they're not dated on Kugutsumen's blog.  Are you an LV member (might be worth mentioning that by way of a declaration of interest!  Would tend to skew things (while explaining your consistent posting record)) or is there another source posting this stuff?  That would be interesting, too, if you have a linky?

The "Sell, Sell, Sell!" advice isn't particularly scandalous, and didn't require inside info

More balanced view, Mahrin, yep.  In fact, I agree with you that it's insufficient proof of malfeasance by itself.  It smells bad, especially coming on top of the t20 stuff as you rightly say, but I doubt if anyone would seriously expect more than a character rename.

The question is if the coalition is going to reinforce failure and make a renewed push in the southwest (where things are currently back to the status quo ante), and if RedSwarm is going to *also* travel 30 jumps to support that.  The only member of the coalition currently operating close to home is AAA, and it's costing the coalition dearly.

I'll bet that they push somewhere that requires BoB to stretch its resources to defend.  Beyond that, who knows?  The Mittani  :evil:?

AAA is not part of the coalition, by the way.  As I understand it, and as mentioned in both Eve Tribune and one of the official Eve-Online login page posts, they withdrew and are operating in an independent capacity vs Bob & Slaves.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 03, 2007, 04:47:26 PM
Impressive that you know the dates of those posts since I understood that they're from LV forums and I know they're not dated on Kugutsumen's blog.  Are you an LV member (might be worth mentioning that by way of a declaration of interest!  Would tend to skew things (while explaining your consistent posting record)) or is there another source posting this stuff?  That would be interesting, too, if you have a linky?
No, I'm not LV member nor I have the access to their forums, but complete version of the post including the date was made public in similar thread that goes on the FoH board  :-)

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/27167-eve-bob-lv-vs-south-east-74.html#post677107


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 03, 2007, 05:19:31 PM
No, I'm not LV member nor I have the access to their forums, but complete version of the post including the date was made public in similar thread that goes on the FoH board  :-)

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/27167-eve-bob-lv-vs-south-east-74.html#post677107

Nice one, ta!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on March 03, 2007, 07:46:33 PM
Well, I have one prediction: RISE won't slow down the Goonswarm for long. I can't see BoB being able to help them anymore than they helped LV. RISE will slow down the train, but only in the time taken to move through them, and the logestics of moving the front eastward as it outruns it's supply lines.

So long as D2 and Co can keep BoB busy.
Interior lines only works if you're not under attack from multiple fronts quicker than you can move your forces around, and Molle's post flat out states that too.

I also wounder how FIX would be going if there were being attacked by IAC and friends from the East, which right now, we arn't, despite having a station only 4 jumps from Queroius. Though that might be Gunboat Diplomacy near us, not FIX itself.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 04, 2007, 10:00:17 AM
This is the drawback of the BoB system: Each tenant cares only about their own patch.  You want Feythobolis?  FIX isn't going to care, hell, FoFF probably isn't going to care much and they're in the next region over.  Where an attack on 9CG is a knife to our throat and ED- is aimed at our heart, and we'll pull out all the stops to defend them, attacks on BoB holdings further out are completely BoB's problem as far as we are concerned, worth participating in only to wring concessions from BoB on something else.  This is why I said Q and Fountain weren't the best places to attack, where RISE and FoFF are recently installed and have serious growth issues, FIX and Xelas have been in their patch for a long time (years in FIX's case, it's the oldest surviving alliance).

Treating the BoB police alliances with contempt is a diplomatic mistake.  They're not simply pets, coming and going at BoB's beck and call, and if they thought they had a survivability option separate from BoB that didn't involve turning their coat and attacking BoB, they'd be likely to take it.  In the end, as long as they retain docking rights, it doesn't matter to the residents of BoB space what color it is painted on the Alliance map (and for many of them, the chance to put their own patch on it in the wake of the hostilities would be attractive).

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on March 04, 2007, 06:57:53 PM
I also wounder how FIX would be going if there were being attacked by IAC and friends from the East, which right now, we arn't, despite having a station only 4 jumps from Queroius. Though that might be Gunboat Diplomacy near us, not FIX itself.

I should keep my shut: the day I post this, a BoB/FIX(?) fleet shows up in FAT and puts all POS's into reinforced mode an hour after I log off. The came, the shot, they left(?).

IAC is now the 2nd biggest allience after Goonfleet...But not nearly as powerful econmically or militarllry, it's more a fact of LV/CA/ISS dropping off the top of the table, and some large corps joining recently (BIG being the...err..biggest, and they are quite powerful econmically).


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 04, 2007, 11:09:07 PM
Thank your friends in RAT.  The LS- POS was a no-no.  But although some FIXians may have been present, it was a BoB operation.  Don't rattle sabers in their direction unless you're serious, they're a little jumpy right now.

Frankly, IAC reminds me very much of Huzzah, and if it's not careful it will suffer a similar fate.  That much growth across that much territory that fast is very hard to handle.  And western Catch is a freaking nightmare to try and keep a handle on in general (AAA never did a very good job of that, I used the back road through FAT for most of my transport runs during both Prohibitions, easier than dealing with HED).  AAA has excellent skills at fleet battles, but actually holding down territory bores them to tears, which is probably why they gave it all to you.  Conquering it is fun, using and protecting it, not so much.

Gunboat Diplomacy has an exclusive on the H74 area, if you want to teach them a lesson about what 0.0 territorial ownership means, be my guest.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 05, 2007, 04:11:21 AM
More weekend news: M.Corp has left LV. Aside from the political implications, this also means that any M. Corp POSes are now no longer generationg sovereignty claims for LV.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on March 05, 2007, 06:45:49 PM
Well we've nearly finished in FAT. BoB and Co havn't shown up. An Outbreak gang got Titaned by AAA and cleaned up by the IAC fleet on the way from F4 to FAT.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 06, 2007, 11:39:17 AM
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=486825
They didn't want those stations anyway.  :roflcopter:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Miasma on March 06, 2007, 11:54:32 AM
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=486825
They didn't want those stations anyway.  :roflcopter:
I have never seen such heavy handed moderation before, by the fourth page at least a third of the posts were molested in some way.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 06, 2007, 12:02:45 PM
The Official EVE boards have always been retarded about moderation, not even so much the harshness or lack of it, but simply the consistency of what and who gets modded and who doesn't.

You can get one thread with everyone calling each other cock goblins and no one seems to mind, the thread right below it though will be nothing but *snip deleted*.


So where did LV end up going? Stain? Seems like they got most of their assets out.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on March 06, 2007, 01:23:24 PM
I'm curious about that myself - Is BoB taking LV in, or are they simply scattered?


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 06, 2007, 01:43:12 PM
I have never seen such heavy handed moderation before, by the fourth page at least a third of the posts were molested in some way.
There is a rule in CAOD forum section which prohibits from posting people with no visible player corporation/alliance tag in their profile. This was established due to literally years of "noob corp" alt posting, usually to troll and/or flame. So posts from such characters are deleted now no matter the content.

The smaller edits are result of one side of conflict insisting on calling themselves "the rapetrain". Hardly wonder it doesn't fly well with the mods.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 06, 2007, 02:00:02 PM
I'm curious about that myself - Is BoB taking LV in, or are they simply scattered?

Private and public statements late last week indicated a move to Stain. However, lots of corps have left LV, so there's something of a diaspora. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them joined the BoB Protectorates.

But.. Ladies and Geeeentlemeeeen.. it's time for the Main Event! The reigning champeen, BoB (and company), versus the Challenger, a Drunken Swarm of Red Bees. And some dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you.

This is going to be fun. :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 06, 2007, 02:54:58 PM
The smaller edits are result of one side of conflict insisting on calling themselves "the rapetrain". Hardly wonder it doesn't fly well with the mods.

Yep, it would be kinda odd if that got through the filter.  A lot are also due to the immediate censoring of anything that suggests that BoB might have had the slightest brush with developers.  BoD and Band of Developers is modded, for instance, though some clever obfuscation still gets the needling through, occasionally.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 06, 2007, 03:42:39 PM
In quite unexpected move, former allies of D2 from north-western part of map declare war on them and the rest of coalition, allying themselves with BoB:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=487204


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 06, 2007, 04:08:05 PM
In a slightly less unexpected move, D2 offered Youwhat's collective head on a platter to the Goons.
History: the XZH system was the site of the ill-fated Goon incursion last summer, where D2 fought the Goons back while YouWhat hid in stations. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on March 06, 2007, 04:11:16 PM
In quite unexpected move, former allies of D2 from north-western part of map declare war on them and the rest of coalition, allying themselves with BoB:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=487204
If it's the corp I'm thinking of, rumor on FOH is they did that because D2 was promising their territory to the Goons, and they felt that was a Bad Idea. (EVE's forums aren't loading for me at the moment, so I can't check).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on March 06, 2007, 04:18:35 PM
That makes no sense. Atm Goons have more space than they know what to do with.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 06, 2007, 04:38:11 PM
That makes no sense. Atm Goons have more space than they know what to do with.
I'd think so too, so if that reason is actually true this is quite a "wtf was D2 thinking" moment  :-o


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on March 06, 2007, 04:43:42 PM
That makes no sense. Atm Goons have more space than they know what to do with.
I'd think so too, so if that reason is actually true this is quite a "wtf was D2 thinking" moment  :-o
I might be remembering who D2 promised the space to wrong. I was skimming and am too lazy to go back and look.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 06, 2007, 04:47:17 PM
It was probably a deal made long before Goons displaced LV and I'm guessing YouWhat just found out about recently. They probably didn't like their space being offered away ;)



I guess the better question about LV isn't where they went, but where did their capital fleet go? It surely wasn't entirely kersploded in the war, and it was(is) fairly large.

What happens if the majority of the LV capital fleet ends up with BoB+MC's? Mother of all cap fleets all contained within a fortress region of delve/period basis (and Querious I suppose?). That would be like 3+ titans, would it not? Plus at least half a dozen motherships and buckets of carriers and dreads.


Does the coalition have anything that could go toe to toe with the BoB+Friends mega fleet?


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 06, 2007, 04:54:24 PM
Does the coalition have anything that could go toe to toe with the BoB+Friends mega fleet?
It's probably moot point because the servers won't be able to cope with engagement at this scale packed onto single node anyway...


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 06, 2007, 05:17:37 PM
Querious is a tough nut, the ED- station is probably one of the most defensible in 0.0 (close to empire for easy emergency logistics, low moon counts for both it and the 3-F system which is the only one you have to transit to reach empire which makes it hard to operate if your numbers aren't totally overwhelming and leaves you vulnerable for drivebys).  And FIX's military doctrine is *designed* for being massively outnumbered, our core leadership was tempered in the CODA war, when we were always outnumbered.  Our capital ship fleet is heavily tilted towards carriers, and we've probably used fighter-bombing tactics more than everyone else in the game combined. The force that couldn't take ED- and 9CG was the same size as the one that did tear apart LV in the same span, although not nearly as coherent.  Add in that ED- is our only station so it's a matter of survival for us to hold it, and you get what happened recently.

The really wierd thing is the way that the northern alliances actually *believe* the anti-BoB propaganda.  Not just the "Band of Developers" stuff, which if true would mean they had not the slightest chance of success, but the "BoB pets are being oppressed and exploited" crap, which if true would have us falling all over ourselves to cut deals.  Of course, if the enemy leaders actually believed it, they wouldn't treat us with such public contempt and force us into ever tighter relationships of mutual survival.  It's pure posturing straight out of the military and political history textbooks, and it's fascinating to watch.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on March 06, 2007, 10:04:52 PM
The YouWhat alliance leader has always had a hate-on for the goons after we got him a two week ban from the game for abusing the petition system.  We had his dread locked down facing certain doom at a goon POS then he logged and sent a stuck petition to have his ship moved out of the system.  Once we realised what happened it was petitioned, we didn't see him log in for a while then other YouWhat members confirmed he was banned in one of the many eve-o GOONIELAGSPLOITSTBH threads.

I think he was enraged by the D2/Goonswarm alliance of convenience and didn't need much inducement from BoB.  Dumb move though, his alliance will lose all it's space very soon when they could've sat the war out then cosy up to the victor.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 06, 2007, 11:08:28 PM
Didn't the goons have something around 100+ pilots in YouWhat's space within a few hours of their announcement?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 07, 2007, 12:53:09 AM
The really wierd thing is the way that the northern alliances actually *believe* the anti-BoB propaganda.  Not just the "Band of Developers" stuff, which if true would mean they had not the slightest chance of success

I think most people I've heard have been of the opinion that BoB had significant, although often tacit, developer and GM assistance, but that that is no longer the case to any significant degree (beyond marginal cases like GM Sunshine).  It's a matter of suspecting weakness rather than strength.

Quote
the "BoB pets are being oppressed and exploited" crap, which if true would have us falling all over ourselves to cut deals. 

I've barely heard that opinion expressed, and I trawl the CAOD boards (and Scrapheap, and SA etc..) boards all the time.  What I have heard, drearily often, is that BoB pets are riddled with Bob alts, are spied on heavily enough by their "masters" to make the chance of them even staying neutral for a sane deal absolutely zero, and have made their choice so must now live with it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 01:48:08 AM
See, this is the problem with propaganda campaigns: Eventually, the people using it start to believe their own propaganda.

To understand BoB, you only have to understand this: Starting more than 2 years ago, BoB set out to make itself an imperial power.  Not just to hold territory, but to remake it's own culture into that of a martial aristocracy.  Regardless of whether they really were the best combatants in Eve when they started, they've made it true by recruiting the best PvP'ers in Eve and agressively refining their tactics.  They didn't just beat ASCN, they beat them like a drum while outnumbered and outspent by more than 3 to 1.

To understand the BoB tenants, you only have to understand one thing: BoB goes to alliances that have little or nothing but desire, and offers them deals that BoB *scrupulously* abides by.  Deals that are much better than those alliances are in a position to demand, good enough then when the alliances are stronger they don't feel constricted or exploited by the arrangement.

FIX was *this* close (imagine holding fingers a hairs breadth apart) to completely dead at the end of CODA.  BoB could have imposed stringent terms, demanded tribute, rubbed our nose in our powerlessness, and if we'd refused they would have had little trouble finding another alliance of equal or greater capability (FIX was down to less than 400 members at that point, had a total capital ship muster of maybe 4 dreadnoughts and no carriers, and was flat broke as both an alliance and individuals) that would have been willing to take the deal.  But they offered us a safe harbour in which to rebuild, under terms that were quite acceptable (no tribute, no rent, no mandatory military commitments beyond keeping raiders out of Querious, something we would need to do anyway).

I don't know the details of the other BoB police alliance's deals, but they are probably similar.  CAOD throws around rhetoric about us paying tribute, not owning stations, and so on, but the fact is that these things are simply not accurate.  There *are* "renter" corps and alliances who pay tribute, have tight restrictions on where they are allowed to mine, rat, and so on, but they are non-militaristic "carebear" outfits.

BoB respects military prowess.  BoB respects bravery, determination, and all the other traditional martial virtues.  Determination and honor is the grounds for their respect for FIX, it's nearly as much a fetish to us as combat skill is to them.

As for spies, BoB may be the only alliance in Eve that doesn't have spies in FIX.  We're the oldest surviving territorial alliance, we've had a very long time to get penetrated by everyone who ever wanted to.  But they don't *need* them, there are more than 200 FIX alumni in BoB, good old-fashioned rumor mill would tell them everything.  In fact, of all the things in the FIX/BoB relationship, our biggest problem is the way they are draining our PvP talent.  That's not any kind of BoB exploitation, that's hardcore PvP'ers wanting to be in an alliance full of like-minded players.  But FIX has always trained up some of the best PvP'ers in Eve, only to lose them for various reasons tied to the tensions between PvP'ers and industrialists.  Outbreak, PURE, and ESA are all the product of FIXian diasporas.

Quite frankly, much of this stuff that is thrown around is so contrary to fact, or so exaggerated, it only makes sense to me as over-compensation for discomfort over the various smaller alliances relationship towards their own major power.  Where FIX, Xelas, etc., all have explicit deals with BoB and high confidence those deals will be honored, everyone else looks to either D2 or RA with a great deal of discomfort.  It's nice to have them as allies when the target is someone else, but when they make demands, you have to give.  And sooner or later, when the board has simplified enough and there is no external enemy to threaten them, they'll demand everything.

Is BoB inherently "better" in a moral sense?  Well, I don't know much about D2, although what I've seen indicates they're nowhere near as reliable in their honesty.  But the RedSwarm success is built on the goonies "I shit on your game" attitude and RA's bottomless wallet from the systematic exploitation of bugged complex spawns over a period of years, so there I would say it's not much of a contest.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on March 07, 2007, 02:05:36 AM
I dunno, BoBs terms sound pretty bad to me.  You have to split your corps pure carebear or PVP, aren't allowed to place your own buy orders for minerals(so basically you are mining slaves) and pay 300mil a week for the privilege.  However you do get what formally looked like secure space brought to 0.0, which I'm sure was attractive to a lot of people. 

Is BoB inherently "better" in a moral sense?  Well, I don't know much about D2, although what I've seen indicates they're nowhere near as reliable in their honesty.  But the RedSwarm success is built on the goonies "I shit on your game" attitude and RA's bottomless wallet from the systematic exploitation of bugged complex spawns over a period of years, so there I would say it's not much of a contest.

I look at it this way, if BoB soundly wins this war they're never going to lose one.  It's highly unlikely we'll get another anti-BoB "perfect storm" bandwagon of this size.  Now if BoB is a true hegemon then they can go about their plan as state on kugutsumen of taking over most of 0.0 and installing their pets.  Suddenly Eve's political landscape starts to look monochrome.  It would be as bad for the game if Redswarm or D2 was a towering colossus.  Maybe I'm being hysterical, heh.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 07, 2007, 02:27:35 AM
Massive, ranting screed of straw-man construction mixed in with hagiobobgraphy.

Erm, you never really quite say what it is you are disagreeing with, just make wild, arm-flinging statements about people "believing their own propaganda" and "throwing stuff around".  Were you disagreeing with me?  What bit?  All I said is that what I kept reading as justification was past dev involvement in a game-rule-breaking way with BoB (absolutely true, and proven as such, although I didn't say I agreed with it in my post) and that Fix, Xelas, MC etc were penetrated by Bob alts and spies (again, I didn't state this as my opinion, but it would be amazing if they were not, given that their enemies certainly are).

You don't need to justify yourself yet again here with the same old "Fix's relationship with BoB is more complex than that!" thing.  Really.  The bit I agree with is that you have, indeed, made your bed now.  Who knows?  maybe you'll win out.  Not where my money is, but always possible if BoB's metagame is better than the Mittani's.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 07, 2007, 04:17:31 AM
Does the coalition have anything that could go toe to toe with the BoB+Friends mega fleet?
I'd say that the real question is "Are RSF/the Northern Alliance smart enough to do the Sun Tsu thing and strike where the BoB CapBlob isn't?"


Title: Re: War
Post by: Tebonas on March 07, 2007, 05:26:31 AM
I just want to take the time to thank you people. The game itself always gets me bored after a few weeks (no tooth for PvP), but the news of the war are quite exciting to read.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 07, 2007, 10:44:20 AM
What MahrinSkel says is in especially stark contrast with D2 policies (selling allied owned space - WTF?!)

Also, don't paint this mess as some monumental "war that will end all wars", to justify massive gangbang rush it is.
I'm going to tell you what will happen - eventually BoB wallets will run dry and they'll have to decide whether to downgrade their ships and continue (in such case, we're looking at years of war), or dissolve(more probable tbh) for a while, just to resurface under different alliance banner somewhere else.

Don't expect a decisive victory - people killed here just respawn at the nearest station and most of BoB core have are used to changing corporate banners. You "kill" BoB, it'll resurface just like CA did (I don't mean new CA here).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 07, 2007, 10:48:37 AM
So apparently YouWhat is done already?

http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=79773#79773

and

http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=80089#80089


Oops? hehe.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 07, 2007, 11:01:21 AM
Chorus of Dawn follows suit with declaring on D2:)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 07, 2007, 11:17:35 AM
I do agree that unless something dramatic happens and someone figures out a amazing new strategy towards Fleet and POS warfare, that this current war will probably bog down into a total WW1 style stalemate. Containing BoB+Friends inside the Delve/Period/Querious tri-region isn't exactly a strangle hold on them economically. With RSF+Friends and D2+Friends having free reign of 0.0 that isn't the Tri-Region they won't have much difficulty maintaining their industry either.

BoB is stubborn, MC is capable and Fix is notoriously determined. The MegaFleet can move around in that region of space relatively easily and rapidly, but the further they try to push it out, the easier it is for the Coalition to hit the empty undefended space. The recent YouWhat turn is a small indication from the BoB side of the fight to try and gain fighting outside of their own home space. I'm sure BoB+Friends will get more folks to join their side and attack inside the Coalitions territory.

They overlying long term goal is for the action isn't territorial or industrial, just psychological. My guess is BoB is hoping some part of the coalition will get bored with the stalemate, or will get to tangled up with the guerrillas in their own space. Allowing BoB to go back on the offensive. I'm also guessing BoB isn't banking on this either though, and are fully prepared to turn the Tri-Region into fortress space and wait out the war for the long run. Maybe hoping for constellation sovereignty or something from CCP?  :-P hehe



Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 07, 2007, 11:29:14 AM
So apparently YouWhat is done already?
Rapetrain haven't brakes.  :evil:


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 11:36:02 AM
Massive, ranting screed of straw-man construction mixed in with hagiobobgraphy.

Erm, you never really quite say what it is you are disagreeing with, just make wild, arm-flinging statements about people "believing their own propaganda" and "throwing stuff around".  Were you disagreeing with me?  What bit?  All I said is that what I kept reading as justification was past dev involvement in a game-rule-breaking way with BoB (absolutely true, and proven as such, although I didn't say I agreed with it in my post) and that Fix, Xelas, MC etc were penetrated by Bob alts and spies (again, I didn't state this as my opinion, but it would be amazing if they were not, given that their enemies certainly are).

You don't need to justify yourself yet again here with the same old "Fix's relationship with BoB is more complex than that!" thing.  Really.  The bit I agree with is that you have, indeed, made your bed now.  Who knows?  maybe you'll win out.  Not where my money is, but always possible if BoB's metagame is better than the Mittani's.

See, this is my point, the propaganda and projection has caused a total disconnect from reality in the anti-BoB forces.  We're not fighting alongside BoB because we're afraid of what BoB will do to us if we don't.  We're fighting alongside BoB because everybody who hates BoB has declared they want to kill us *first*.  MC really would have taken a a contract against BoB.  FIX really would have stayed home in Querious if nobody had attacked us there (we never did attack ASCN, although we did stage some reprisal raids against POS).  And BoB wouldn't have made any reprisals against us, if they had been forced to admit they needed our help they would have come to us and cut a deal.

You're projecting this culture of fear and submission that just doesn't exist.  You're making decisions based on this fantasy, and those decisions are becoming more and more hysterical (in every sense of the word).

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 07, 2007, 12:00:19 PM
Massive, ranting screed of straw-man construction mixed in with hagiobobgraphy.

Erm, you never really quite say what it is you are disagreeing with, just make wild, arm-flinging statements about people "believing their own propaganda" and "throwing stuff around".  Were you disagreeing with me?  What bit?  All I said is that what I kept reading as justification was past dev involvement in a game-rule-breaking way with BoB (absolutely true, and proven as such, although I didn't say I agreed with it in my post) and that Fix, Xelas, MC etc were penetrated by Bob alts and spies (again, I didn't state this as my opinion, but it would be amazing if they were not, given that their enemies certainly are).

You don't need to justify yourself yet again here with the same old "Fix's relationship with BoB is more complex than that!" thing.  Really.  The bit I agree with is that you have, indeed, made your bed now.  Who knows?  maybe you'll win out.  Not where my money is, but always possible if BoB's metagame is better than the Mittani's.

See, this is my point, the propaganda and projection has caused a total disconnect from reality in the anti-BoB forces.  We're not fighting alongside BoB because we're afraid of what BoB will do to us if we don't.  We're fighting alongside BoB because everybody who hates BoB has declared they want to kill us *first*.  MC really would have taken a a contract against BoB.  FIX really would have stayed home in Querious if nobody had attacked us there (we never did attack ASCN, although we did stage some reprisal raids against POS).  And BoB wouldn't have made any reprisals against us, if they had been forced to admit they needed our help they would have come to us and cut a deal.

You're projecting this culture of fear and submission that just doesn't exist.  You're making decisions based on this fantasy, and those decisions are becoming more and more hysterical (in every sense of the word).

--Dave

Oh for fuck's sake there you go again!  Stop building straw men!  Where did I say anything about believing you did it because of "fear and submission".  You aren't even reading what I wrote.  Not even slightly.  By all means have mad arguments with yourself, frothing wildly about those who dare disagree, but don't drag me into it, make up stuff and pretend I said it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 12:07:16 PM
WTF?  Did you ever find yourself trying to have a conversation, and the person you were talking to said something so totally off the wall that you found yourself wondering if you were even talking the same language?  Yeah, we've got one of *those* moments.

I try to explain what the real relationship between BoB and FIX is, and you tell me it is irrelevant.  I try to explain how what you are saying about FIX not being able to cross BoB because we're filled with BoB alts and spies is completely off the mark, and you start going on about strawmen.  At this point, I can conclude one of two things:

1) You're a flaming loon.

2) You're engaging in the Chewbacca Defense school of tactical forum warrioring.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 07, 2007, 12:15:46 PM

Forum warriors hooooooooooooooooooo!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 07, 2007, 12:18:34 PM
Edit: got rid of worst trolling.  :nda:

Let me trim down what I said about alts and spies, getting rid of those tricky extra clauses and brackets:

Quote
All I said is that what I kept reading as justification was... that Fix, Xelas, MC etc were penetrated by Bob alts and spies (again, I didn't state this as my opinion, but it would be amazing if they were not, given that their enemies certainly are).

That is reported opinion, not mine.  I've put bits in bold, too, just to help you.  I merely add that I, personally, would be surprised if BoB didn't have spies and alts in Fix, since they have them in everyone else.  Ie in GF, RA, and all the rest of your enemies.  Hardly an unbalanced jab at Fix.  And if you read things more carefully, you'd notice earlier on I said that I thought Fix were the most likely to have an independent exit strategy planned.

I look forward to your response, denying my assertion that Xelas eat babies and Fix are Satanists, or some other non-sequitor.

Quote
1) You're a flaming loon.

2) You're engaging in the Chewbacca Defense school of tactical forum warrioring.

That's very special.  Funnily enough, until recently you struck me as a really valuable poster, who would be calm and balanced and offer great insights.  These last few posts are like you are sleep deprived or something.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 12:28:53 PM
Okay, one more try:

If the anti-BoB forces are making the decision not to diplomatically approach or militarily bypass the BoB police alliances because they believe them to be so filled with alts and spies from BoB as to be incapable of any action short of complete support of BoB, they are making decisions based on a *massive* misunderstanding of the real situation inside of BoB space.  These decisions appear to be based on propaganda they've been repeating to each other so long they have come to have the force of fact.

Seeing this presentation in CAOD and other fora of "facts" that are completely contrary to reality but have become a self-reinforcing substitute for it, as a student of player mass behaviour I cannot help but attempt to theorize about the dynamics involved.  This is me wearing my "Game Designer" hat, the mass behaviour of players is a source of endless fascination to me.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 07, 2007, 12:31:07 PM
I won't get into anything else about BoB and Tenants and whatnot, but:

Quote
MC really would have taken a a contract against BoB.


Is crap. There just isn't any way MC would go against the people housing their prized capyards for their capfleet. Wait, let me alter that. They would go against BoB, if someone could offer them new space with brand new capyards to replace all the old capyards they would inevitably lose against BoB AND if someone could also guarantee protection from BoB retribution after the move to the new space containing the new yards and stations for them.


The first isn't very likely (but possible), the second isn't possible. Not only can no one provide that kind of protection, which alliance is going to house the MC fleet as a 'neutral' entity if it's already "betrayed" its former landlord?

I'm sure MC loves to think itself neutral (or did at least), a pure merc corp and whatnot... but once the capyards went up in BoB space, they tied themselves to BoB. No amount of ISK would let anyone hire them against BoB. The space they hold in BoB land is worth far more to them then any amount of ISK. You can't buy that kind of security and loyalty that BoB has provided to MC.


With that said, I wouldn't do anything different if I was in charge of MC either. It was clear that in order to be effective mercs on a alliance level, you needed to get in on the capital game. It was also clear the capital game had a new set of rules regarding territory and resource requirements. MC made a good deal, shit a great deal with BoB. Still doesn't mean they would be impartial in terms of contracts though. Going against BoB would mean going back to pre-capital empire war merc'ing, since no one would trust them to house them in their own space and their own capital fleet would eventually be depleted. The only other recourse would be to become a 0.0 power themselves, but then, they wouldn't be mercs anymore.



Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 12:44:37 PM
I won't get into anything else about BoB and Tenants and whatnot, but:

Quote
MC really would have taken a a contract against BoB.


Is crap. There just isn't any way MC would go against the people housing their prized capyards for their capfleet. Wait, let me alter that. They would go against BoB, if someone could offer them new space with brand new capyards to replace all the old capyards they would inevitably lose against BoB AND if someone could also guarantee protection from BoB retribution after the move to the new space containing the new yards and stations for them.


The first isn't very likely (but possible), the second isn't possible. Not only can no one provide that kind of protection, which alliance is going to house the MC fleet as a 'neutral' entity if it's already "betrayed" its former landlord?

I'm sure MC loves to think itself neutral (or did at least), a pure merc corp and whatnot... but once the capyards went up in BoB space, they tied themselves to BoB. No amount of ISK would let anyone hire them against BoB. The space they hold in BoB land is worth far more to them then any amount of ISK. You can't buy that kind of security and loyalty that BoB has provided to MC.


With that said, I wouldn't do anything different if I was in charge of MC either. It was clear that in order to be effective mercs on a alliance level, you needed to get in on the capital game. It was also clear the capital game had a new set of rules regarding territory and resource requirements. MC made a good deal, shit a great deal with BoB. Still doesn't mean they would be impartial in terms of contracts though. Going against BoB would mean going back to pre-capital empire war merc'ing, since no one would trust them to house them in their own space and their own capital fleet would eventually be depleted. The only other recourse would be to become a 0.0 power themselves, but then, they wouldn't be mercs anymore.
And again we have a failure to understand the essential nature of BoB and their relationships to the police alliances (although to be fair, the MC relationship is particularly unique).  Part of the MC/BoB deal since the beginning has been the prospoect that someday MC would take a contract against BoB.  There are all kinds of provisions for that event, how MC would not use their leasehold in Period Basis as a military or economic base for attacks on BoB, how BoB would not engage in attacks on that constellation, how neither would take any action with or against any capital ships being built there for the duration of the contract.  Even clauses about how to handle it if a 4th party (not BoB or the client) attacked MC space during the contract.

Remember, BoB respects military capability above all else, and they've understood MC's nature since the beginning.  When Seleene said they really wanted the anti-BoB forces to come to them with offers, he was dead serious, it was the best chance they ever were going to get to prove they really were independant.  But they got no offers at all, no responses to their inquiries.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 07, 2007, 12:46:12 PM
Okay, one more try:

Try not to do that: it comes across as extremely condescending.  And I suspect that everyone gets the "Fix really, really aren't Bob slaves" line, not least since you have stated this in many, many posts for as long as I remember.  We're not your audience for that argument anyway.  None of us are the ones deciding where the Swarm or NC attack next.  I, for one, was discussing why the reasons you originally gave weren't ones I'd read much of at all.  I suspect that outside of COAD, most people have a more nuanced view in any case.

And the "straw men" you say I am going on about were pertinent.  This is what they are (http://www.answers.com/topic/straw-man) (definition 2).  My frustration was that you kept criticising me for saying things I have not said.  To be clear, I do not think that you could not make separate arrangements with GF etc..  Other people disagree.  But I can certainly see a number of reasons why, to the coalition, you might be more useful on Bob's side for the moment than neutral.

Edit: spelling.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 01:32:22 PM
Okay, one more try:

Try not to do that: it comes across as extremely condescending.
Hi there, we obviously haven't met, I'm Dave Rickey, aka "Mahrin Skel", aka "that pompous, arrogant prick".  Nice to meet you.
Quote
 And I suspect that everyone gets the "Fix really, really aren't Bob slaves" line, not least since you have stated this in many, many posts for as long as I remember.  We're not your audience for that argument anyway.  None of us are the ones deciding where the Swarm or NC attack next.  I, for one, was discussing why the reasons you originally gave weren't ones I'd read much of at all.  I suspect that outside of COAD, most people have a more nuanced view in any case.

And the "straw men" you say I am going on about were pertinent.  This is what they are (http://www.answers.com/topic/straw-man) (definition 2).  My frustration was that you kept criticising me for saying things I have not said.  To be clear, I do not think that you could not make separate arrangements with GF etc..  Other people disagree.  But I can certainly see a number of reasons why, to the coalition, you might be more useful on Bob's side for the moment than neutral.

Edit: spelling.
And I was pointing out that most of the reasons seem to be rooted in believing their own propoganda.  I've seen a great deal of it thrown around.  There's definitely different flavors, the RedSwarm propaganda efforts center on the "corruption" of the "Band of Developers", the northern propaganda about their imperialistic degradation of subordinate alliances.  *Both* appear to be projection, RedSwarm pointing out "See, we may have exploited the 8/10's for nearly two years and making it a point of pride that we grief and scam everyone, but BoB had CCP developers cheating for them," and D2 saying "We may be excercising a veto over all your decisions, but BoB is demanding tribute and not letting them own any stations."

All of these lead to subordinate conclusions.  If BoB has only been winning all their wars for the last two years because developers have been cheating for them and really aren't that good, then now that the light's been shown on it and CCP won't help them they'll be easily beatable, especially if outnumbered.  And if the subordinate alliances accept such humiliating terms, they can't have any pride and won't fight very long or very hard to protect stations and space that aren't even theirs.  And having made the decision to attack on propaganda that was half lies, they make decisions for how to conduct the war off these fantasies that have nothing to do with what's actually happening.

So they don't offer MC a contract, and put *the* elite PvP organization of Eve on the opposing side.  And they attack FIX's ED- station, one of the most defensible hardpoints in Eve with one of the most determined defense forces, with a strategic plan that calls for a quick walkover, easy taking of 9CG, and a launch point against Delve and Period Basis.  And they drive their own allies to the opposing side, by acting precisely the way they accuse BoB of acting, because they believe everyone knows BoB is worse.  It's a classic case of military/political blunder through belief in your own propaganda, and although I find myself on one side of it in-game, I am still trying to understand where it is coming from and where it will lead in an as objective as possible fashion.

What *should* they have done, assuming they had assessed the reality and not the propaganda?  Hire MC, send them against LV or some random scapegoat if they didn't trust them to fight against BoB, just take them off the board.  Ignored Querious and Fountain, blast straight down the A2 pipe to Delve, FIX and Xelas might harass the reinforcements but they wouldn't have laid in the tracks to try and stop a 400 ship freight train.  Neither is an option now that they've attacked directly against Fountain, Querious, and Period Basis and made true what they had believed: FIX, Xelas, and MC have no future separate from BoB.  Even if it wasn't true from the beginning, all three would have *wanted* to believe it was.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 07, 2007, 01:37:13 PM
If the anti-BoB forces are making the decision not to diplomatically approach or militarily bypass the BoB police alliances because they believe them to be so filled with alts and spies from BoB as to be incapable of any action short of complete support of BoB, they are making decisions based on a *massive* misunderstanding of the real situation inside of BoB space.  These decisions appear to be based on propaganda they've been repeating to each other so long they have come to have the force of fact.
But people did, back before the destruction of LV started. The general response from the BoB serfs at that time could be summed up as 'LOL'.

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on March 07, 2007, 01:51:56 PM
Remember, BoB respects military capability above all else, and they've understood MC's nature since the beginning.  When Seleene said they really wanted the anti-BoB forces to come to them with offers, he was dead serious, it was the best chance they ever were going to get to prove they really were independant.  But they got no offers at all, no responses to their inquiries.

Well yeah that's the MC party line.  But I, along with a mob of other people, heard Seleene say on one of the Burn Eden TS sessions that they wouldn't hypothetically attack BoB for less than trillions and a relocation deal to comparable space.  Basically a "go fuck yourself" deal.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 07, 2007, 01:57:42 PM
Quote
Part of the MC/BoB deal since the beginning has been the prospect that someday MC would take a contract against BoB.  There are all kinds of provisions for that event, how MC would not use their leasehold in Period Basis as a military or economic base for attacks on BoB, how BoB would not engage in attacks on that constellation, how neither would take any action with or against any capital ships being built there for the duration of the contract.  Even clauses about how to handle it if a 4th party (not BoB or the client) attacked MC space during the contract.


What would even be the point then?  :wink: That is totally why you hire MC, so you gain their very effective capital fleet to augment your own fleet. In every meaningfull way, MC is tied to BoB and vice versa. Though I suppose someone could cough up a trillion ISK and have MC shoot the odd BoB empire hauler (if such a thing even exists).

Which is my entire point, MC isn't neutral, they want to be, they may even think they are, but once you start making deals like they did with BoB, you've "picked a side" as it were. Once you get all these provisions and clauses about what you can and can't do so you can keep your corner of space, you are tied to someone else.



Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 02:05:30 PM
If the anti-BoB forces are making the decision not to diplomatically approach or militarily bypass the BoB police alliances because they believe them to be so filled with alts and spies from BoB as to be incapable of any action short of complete support of BoB, they are making decisions based on a *massive* misunderstanding of the real situation inside of BoB space.  These decisions appear to be based on propaganda they've been repeating to each other so long they have come to have the force of fact.
But people did, back before the destruction of LV started. The general response from the BoB serfs at that time could be summed up as 'LOL'.

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
"Hey, since you so obviously love being BoB's bitch, why don't you let us show how a real man keeps his ho's in line?"  That was the tone of the stuff FIX was hearing back around the time of Prohibition, if we *immediately* turned our coat and attacked BoB, later when they got around to following it up they might help us.  It was an obvious invitation to weaken both ourselves and BoB in exchange for a promise not to beat us to death if we survived BoB.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 02:07:18 PM
Quote
Part of the MC/BoB deal since the beginning has been the prospect that someday MC would take a contract against BoB.  There are all kinds of provisions for that event, how MC would not use their leasehold in Period Basis as a military or economic base for attacks on BoB, how BoB would not engage in attacks on that constellation, how neither would take any action with or against any capital ships being built there for the duration of the contract.  Even clauses about how to handle it if a 4th party (not BoB or the client) attacked MC space during the contract.


What would even be the point then?  :wink: That is totally why you hire MC, so you gain their very effective capital fleet to augment your own fleet. In every meaningfull way, MC is tied to BoB and vice versa. Though I suppose someone could cough up a trillion ISK and have MC shoot the odd BoB empire hauler (if such a thing even exists).

Which is my entire point, MC isn't neutral, they want to be, they may even think they are, but once you start making deals like they did with BoB, you've "picked a side" as it were. Once you get all these provisions and clauses about what you can and can't do so you can keep your corner of space, you are tied to someone else.
You'd get their current capital fleet, just not any motherships or titans that were still under construction when the contract started.  And like I said in another post, the smart thing to do even if you didn't trust MC's integrity would have been to send them to attack someone else.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 07, 2007, 02:26:15 PM

You'd get their current capital fleet, just not any motherships or titans that were still under construction when the contract started.  And like I said in another post, the smart thing to do even if you didn't trust MC's integrity would have been to send them to attack someone else.

--Dave


But that would be the catch, if you don't Trust MC's integrity, why would you trust them to attack someone else while you are clearly going for BoB? Which is why the situation is as it is, since no one really does trust MC in that regard towards BoB, because of the previously discussed relationship with BoB.


So have we officially gone full circle on the MC/BoB topic?  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 02:53:45 PM

You'd get their current capital fleet, just not any motherships or titans that were still under construction when the contract started.  And like I said in another post, the smart thing to do even if you didn't trust MC's integrity would have been to send them to attack someone else.

--Dave


But that would be the catch, if you don't Trust MC's integrity, why would you trust them to attack someone else while you are clearly going for BoB? Which is why the situation is as it is, since no one really does trust MC in that regard towards BoB, because of the previously discussed relationship with BoB.


So have we officially gone full circle on the MC/BoB topic?  :-D
So you think that MC is so completely without honor that if you attacked BoB while they were on a contract against someone else, they'd drop the contract and go defend BoB?  Even if that were true, wouldn't the PR value of that equal the cost of the contract to make it happen?

Eve is a game, people don't always behave "rationally", in pursuit of their self-interest, but instead act in accordance with their self-*image*.  MC really does see themselves as hired guns, available to the highest bidder, and would collapse internally if their leadership put them in such a position.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on March 07, 2007, 03:35:54 PM

You'd get their current capital fleet, just not any motherships or titans that were still under construction when the contract started.  And like I said in another post, the smart thing to do even if you didn't trust MC's integrity would have been to send them to attack someone else.

--Dave


But that would be the catch, if you don't Trust MC's integrity, why would you trust them to attack someone else while you are clearly going for BoB? Which is why the situation is as it is, since no one really does trust MC in that regard towards BoB, because of the previously discussed relationship with BoB.


So have we officially gone full circle on the MC/BoB topic?  :-D
Our resident SC drone has a good point -- the smart thing would have been to hire MC to do something far away from contested space. If nothing else, putting them on the other side of the map and getting paid means they're not helping BoB. Between hitting whatever poor bitch had the bad luck to be the maximum possible distance from your BoB target and keeping enough at home to secure their own systems, you could have taken MC out of the fight.

If they reneged, they lose all the PR and rep they've built up. I'd have a gambled billions of ISK to try to keep MC neutral, and probably sweetened the pot by telling them that their space was safe as long as they played ball and did what they were hired to do.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 07, 2007, 03:47:01 PM
So you think that MC is so completely without honor that if you attacked BoB while they were on a contract against someone else, they'd drop the contract and go defend BoB?  Even if that were true, wouldn't the PR value of that equal the cost of the contract to make it happen?

Eve is a game, people don't always behave "rationally", in pursuit of their self-interest, but instead act in accordance with their self-*image*.  MC really does see themselves as hired guns, available to the highest bidder, and would collapse internally if their leadership put them in such a position.

--Dave

Why pay for it when the coalition has already gotten it for free? As far as the coalition's PR goals are towards MC, they've achieved what most of them probably already believed and suspected, that MC would align itself to BoB and show itself to truly be yet another BoB 'pet' etc...

 But honestly, yes, I do believe MC is capable of ditching a contract to defend BoB, or its own space in BoB space. It isn't a matter of honour really, just practicality. With all the various meta gaming, spying, alts and social engineering in EVE, how can anyone with alliance responsibility NOT take that kind of thing into consideration? The Devil you know and all that.

It comes down too, is it worth the risk to rely on MC's honour to stay out of the war? If you already think MC is in bed with BoB and you know there are in fact stipulations and clauses to MC's involvement in contracts against BoB, and there has yet to date been a MC contract taken against BoB AND your fighting arguably the largest War in EVE history date against BoB... why gamble? It isn't just the ISK, it's the very real possibility of getting a MC cap fleet up your rear when you aren't ready for it.

In the end, it comes down to MC's word that they wouldn't get involved... and since we established I (as the theoretical coalition alliance leader) don't trust them, why beat around the bush?







Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 04:15:22 PM
But the coalition hasn't gotten that PR coup.  Those who already believed MC wasn't neutral see it as confirmation, but it didn't sway anyone who was undecided, and it didn't demoralize MC internally the way that the real thing would have.  A situation was created where MC had *no* choice but to come in on BoB's side (their shipyard systems being attacked, no counter-contracts being offered, everyone making it clear that as far as they were concerned MC was already with BoB).  MC would have gone to great lengths to at least appear neutral, if it had even been an option.  But the direct attacks removed even the possibility of just sitting it out (as they did in the ASCN war, even while the front line was right on their doorstep).

If the anti-BoB metagaming kung-fu was truly strong, they would have played on the weakness of the BoB coalition: The obsession with the appearance of strength.  If someone has to ask for help, they are showing weakness.  Asking for BoB to reinforce us when the ED- egg was under attack cost FIX points, it said we weren't coordinated or strong enough to get an outpost up on our own.  If BoB had been forced to *ask* FIX, Xelas, and MC for help in this war, it would have been a demoralizing humiliation for them.  They might have been willing to die alone, rather than reach out for it, and certainly would have to be taking a bad beating first, one that would have seriously tarnished *everyone's* belief in their invincibility, including their own.

But when 400+ ships on each front hit both Xelas and FIX, nobody loses face or morale (except for the forces who can't win even with odds so heavily tilted in their favor).  Nobody expects FIX or Xelas to stand alone against that kind of force, and the military and political neccessity of BoB to move to defend them is obvious and welcome.  We get points for holding the line against overwhelming odds, BoB gets points for a systematic demolition of the attackers.  FIX and Xelas are irrevocably committed to the fight, where we probably would have tried to sit it out otherwise.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 04:33:59 PM
I dunno, BoBs terms sound pretty bad to me.  You have to split your corps pure carebear or PVP, aren't allowed to place your own buy orders for minerals(so basically you are mining slaves) and pay 300mil a week for the privilege.  However you do get what formally looked like secure space brought to 0.0, which I'm sure was attractive to a lot of people. 
Can't believe I managed to miss this one.  WTF?  FIX isn't pure carebear or PvP, never has been.  Delve markets might be another story, but BoB has never said anything to *me* about what to do in the markets, and I'm probably the biggest buyer and seller in Querious.  Including hundreds of millions of units of minerals.  And Q space is generally only as secure as FIX makes it ourselves, we see BoB ships south of the A2 pipe *only* when there's a significant territorial threat, before the recent events that had been a total of 3 times since the end of CODA.
Quote
Is BoB inherently "better" in a moral sense?  Well, I don't know much about D2, although what I've seen indicates they're nowhere near as reliable in their honesty.  But the RedSwarm success is built on the goonies "I shit on your game" attitude and RA's bottomless wallet from the systematic exploitation of bugged complex spawns over a period of years, so there I would say it's not much of a contest.

I look at it this way, if BoB soundly wins this war they're never going to lose one.  It's highly unlikely we'll get another anti-BoB "perfect storm" bandwagon of this size.  Now if BoB is a true hegemon then they can go about their plan as state on kugutsumen of taking over most of 0.0 and installing their pets.  Suddenly Eve's political landscape starts to look monochrome.  It would be as bad for the game if Redswarm or D2 was a towering colossus.  Maybe I'm being hysterical, heh.
BoB couldn't survive such a victory, they need an enemy to fight against as much as the Goonies.  Create a "Blue Doughnut" of BoB control through all of 0.0, and within 3 months BoB would be an empty shell and the police alliances would be ignoring it and making their own powerblocks.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 07, 2007, 04:49:37 PM
BoB couldn't survive such a victory, they need an enemy to fight against as much as the Goonies.  Create a "Blue Doughnut" of BoB control through all of 0.0, and within 3 months BoB would be an empty shell and the police alliances would be ignoring it and making their own powerblocks.

--Dave

Indeed. The Empire collapsing from within is a timeless story.

Also, there'll be more when I do a full article, but I did get a good quote from Magnus (CCP Chief Marketing Dude) yesterday. Apparently there's CCP devs in all the top 20 alliances in the game:

"We have a very even distribution of CCP employees in the top 10 alliances, or top 20..."

Take that as you will.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on March 07, 2007, 07:28:49 PM
Less theory and if-then talk, more war updates!  :hello_kitty:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 07, 2007, 08:06:36 PM
Another station was taken apparently. http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=487892

Choo Choo.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 07, 2007, 08:56:50 PM
And unannounced on CAOD: BoB/MC/FIX forces have destroyed several IAC POS in the FAT system and placed several POS of our own, apparently we're taking FAT.  Again.

--Dave (god, I *hate* that system)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 08, 2007, 01:46:57 AM
Yeah, one of the guys on SA reported the Catch thing most ricky-ticky on the forums:

Quote from: Munky73770
"47 dread, 7 mother ships, 29 carriers, 2 titans reported

Uh-oh.

Swarm get your asses up here lol  :-)"

I'm no pos-warfare strategist.  In fact, like most people, my grasp is tenuous at best.  My own thoughts would have been that BoB can take that system if they want, but that they really expose their cap fleet to AAA inparticular by doing so, and that that sort of size of fleet indicates an unsustainable tempo of operations (in terms of players' real life shit more than the ISK, I mean).

Am I reading this wrong?  I'd also have thought that them sticking everything in one place is an invitation to their enemies to do exactly what they did: go somewhere else and take a station in Feyth (BOB + Ragnarok titan turned up eventually, but couldn't swing it by then).  Is a station for some PoS's a good trade?

Does Catch have some huge strategic significance that would make taking it (at the cost of losses elsewhere) worthwhile?  Is it a choke system or a cap shipyard or something?  Would taking it mean that a large number of coalition systems were opened up to raiding, or that the coalition would for some reason be forced to counterattack at great cost?

Or are BoB just looking for a good fight in Catch?

Edit: fixed my stupid quote-nesting


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 08, 2007, 02:08:36 AM
It's really, really shiny.  The FAT area has roughly 50 or so belts of Arkonor (the most valuable ore in the game) *and* a 10/10 complex.  It's also more than 20 jumps deep in 0.0 and more than 10 from the nearest refinery, which makes the damned thing a tar-baby, FIX has owned it 4 or 5 times and it's brought nothing but pain and frustration in the end for everyone who has ever owned it, unless they gave it up voluntarily.  It's the Hope Diamond of Eve.

AAA isn't there anymore, they moved to Impass and handed it over to IAC, who, no offense, isn't nearly as scary to conduct capital ship ops against (they've never won a battle involving capital ships without being a minority chunk of a bigger fleet).  It's also *way* out at the end of their turf, about 20 jumps from their home systems.  IAC is over-extended right now and in no position to defend it (which, frankly, describes just about everyone who ever owned it).

Needless to say, I'm hoping FIX isn't planning on taking over that miserable hunk of gold-plated shit.  Get in, get the 5-6B isk worth of ore we've had sitting there for over a year, and turn it over to some other set of poor bastards who don't know any better.

Strategically, it's not worth much, you can't reach anything from it in cap ships but Empire and Stain. It's a potentially useful stepping-stone for reaching the BoB regions in the far south, but not essential.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on March 08, 2007, 08:21:33 AM
It's essential if AAA want to keep the 10/10 and 6/10 complex nearby. It's not essential to IAC by itself (though it's nice to have an entire -1.0 system to myself, I never got an office spawn :( ) but as Marian pointed out, it's quite nice to have to NPC out of.

It's also a dooway into Gunboat Diplomacy (a BoB pet south of FIX) which makes it an essential jump of point for the Goonswarm when and if they do want to attack FiX or GUN directly.

It's also quite far away from IAC home space, or even IAC empty space (N-5 and V2), but attacking it means IAC no longer has to make 30 jumps to an enemy system.

I don't belive FIX can take it without BoB anymore than IAC can defend it without our friends either, though FiX vs IAC would probably be an even fight. AAA if nothing else will want to defend it, if they want to keep the nearby 10/10 complex. I have no idea if Goonswarm or other friends will show up or not, but I'm sure BoB will (unless FIX owns a couple of motherships and a titan, it was BoB+friends, not FIX+friends).

It's giving me practice at being a smal gang fleet commander, I help lead a small 10 man squadron in getting a first real kill, a Stain Empire Tier 2 battlecruiser. Yar.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 08, 2007, 12:44:55 PM
But the coalition hasn't gotten that PR coup.  Those who already believed MC wasn't neutral see it as confirmation, but it didn't sway anyone who was undecided, and it didn't demoralize MC internally the way that the real thing would have.  A situation was created where MC had *no* choice but to come in on BoB's side (their shipyard systems being attacked, no counter-contracts being offered, everyone making it clear that as far as they were concerned MC was already with BoB).  MC would have gone to great lengths to at least appear neutral, if it had even been an option.  But the direct attacks removed even the possibility of just sitting it out (as they did in the ASCN war, even while the front line was right on their doorstep).


This is where I just simply disagree, I do believe the coalition got what they wanted out of the 'coup'. Confirmation for them is a good thing, it creates polarization and I believe that is the ultimate goal. The whole bit about the train and what not. With us or against us. No fence sitters  :-) . Looking at the 0.0 landscape, who was really undecided about MC one way or the other? Well, who was undecided and mattered.

It was something of a Chicken and Egg scenario. MC says they would be neutral if given the opportunity, but no one believes them neutral enough to give them the opportunity.

It was all a giant If, maybe, could be. Now it's a sure thing. Certainty is easier to deal with.



Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on March 08, 2007, 12:47:16 PM
In this case no - its a harder thing.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Verify on March 08, 2007, 01:34:21 PM
I don't understand the whole MC neutrality debate. It seems rather pointless. From the outset of the campaign it was generally known that we would attempt to destroy MC as part of our campaign to destroy BoB. We never attempted to hire the MC because we planned on taking them down and frankly most of us believe their PVP abilities are vastly over rated. They have been hired against GS 7 times and have not yet had a noticeable impact in any of our operations. In the huge 1v- meat grinder their cap ships sat behind a POS shield and watched as LV and V fleets were slaughtered.

Even before MC's declaration, I am confident the Northern forces had no intention of stopping at BoB and letting MC walk away untouched.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 08, 2007, 04:38:02 PM
This is where I just simply disagree, I do believe the coalition got what they wanted out of the 'coup'. Confirmation for them is a good thing, it creates polarization and I believe that is the ultimate goal. The whole bit about the train and what not. With us or against us. No fence sitters  :-) . Looking at the 0.0 landscape, who was really undecided about MC one way or the other? Well, who was undecided and mattered.

It was something of a Chicken and Egg scenario. MC says they would be neutral if given the opportunity, but no one believes them neutral enough to give them the opportunity.

It was all a giant If, maybe, could be. Now it's a sure thing. Certainty is easier to deal with.
A little over-confident maybe?  Hope you have contingency plans for a political meltdown among your northern allies and BoB + Friends being able to focus on you.  Not to mention that if you're depending on your southern friends to hate BoB more than they fear you....don't fail.  Ever.

Yes, it's has certainly removed a lot of uncertainty.  Nobody on the BoB side of the table has *any* doubts about whether we stand or fall with them anymore.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 08, 2007, 06:50:35 PM
We could argue you *HAVE* to be overconfident to bring the fight to BoB, history does seem to favor them in terms of victories.

Verify does bring up a good point, I did make the assumption that the coalition didn't already decide to take down MC regardless of any perceived neutrality or not. For all I know, Seleene stole someones cookies and they want them back.  :-) Could be as simple as "I never liked those MC guys anyways".


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 09, 2007, 05:52:28 AM
We could argue you *HAVE* to be overconfident to bring the fight to BoB, history does seem to favor them in terms of victories.

Verify does bring up a good point, I did make the assumption that the coalition didn't already decide to take down MC regardless of any perceived neutrality or not. For all I know, Seleene stole someones cookies and they want them back.  :-) Could be as simple as "I never liked those MC guys anyways".

As I said before, I could list plenty of reasons why the coalition would want Bob to be prvoded with territory-holding allies, especially ones like -Y-, Xelas, Rise etc.  But Fix too, come to that.  Everyone loves to make WW2 analogies, so here's one.  Hitler himself stated that Italy's entry into the war was a drain on Germany's resources.  It was another front (two, in time) which needed German resources to defend, instead of a neutral blocking position.  Similarly, had Fix stayed neutral, then that direction would have been safe from threats: one less front.  As it is, Bob have repeatedly had to send massive fleets round their tenants, sometimes two distant ones, in an evening, to shore up defences.

MC are the exception.  They add a lot without requiring additional defensive commitments, due to their location.  But really, the Coalition hiring them to patrol the drone territories or something equally distant was the only safe thing to hire them for, and the price would have been, in Seleene's own words, trillions.  It is a ridiculous idea.

If I were a coalition commander, I would be delighted to see the PvP core of the Bob hegemony being forced to keep up a high operational tempo night after night, week after week, and being committed to territorial defence of their alliance's Rumania, Bulgaria and Italy, instead of the repeated, powerful, destructive and well-timed counter-thrusts which could have utterly demoralised D2, and which they are well capable of.  This geographical dispersion will become the case more and more as the threat on the Southern front grows.

Everyone seems to assume that Bob are late-1944 Germany, looking for a Battle of the Bulge type gamble to drive off one enemy. To me, Bob seem more like 1914-era Germany: surrounded by threats, with a smaller logistical base, but still capable of strategic offensives and with the potential to knock an opponent out if they focus on the right place.

The addition of -Y- strikes me as a dumb Bob move on an amazing scale.  -Y- Leadership grudges aside, presumably they were paid or given territorial promises in order to declare and cause havoc on the enemy's supply lines.  In fact, they served as an example to others of the stupidity of their actions, and as a morale boost for the opposition, as well as drawing several other forces in against them.  Other third-tier alliances will surely have taken note.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 09, 2007, 06:12:23 AM
I lolled.
Seriously Endie, what kind of world you're living on?


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 09, 2007, 07:40:23 AM
The addition of -Y- strikes me as a dumb Bob move on an amazing scale.  -Y- Leadership grudges aside, presumably they were paid or given territorial promises in order to declare and cause havoc on the enemy's supply lines.  In fact, they served as an example to others of the stupidity of their actions, and as a morale boost for the opposition, as well as drawing several other forces in against them.  Other third-tier alliances will surely have taken note.
The -Y- defection seems to be, at least in the short term, an amazing "perfect storm" of political and military benefit for BoB.  The northern coalition is in disarray, having decamped completely from their failed assault.  RedSwarm's focus has been split, the goonies scenting the blood of an old enemy and chasing *completely* across the map in order to pursue it.  And -Y- doesn't seem to have any plans to actually keep their old territory, already dispersing from it and becoming a guerilla force. one that will significantly reduce the northern capacity to project power.

-Y- stiffens the resolve of the northern coalition's less enthusiastic members only if they are completely and immediately crushed.  If their treason prospers, or even survives, the northern coalition may never put itself back together.  In exchange, RedSwarm has taken BoB's most distant outpost, and that can be traced much more to the assault on FAT than to anything related to -Y-.  I'm sure BoB would be happier if they hadn't given it away like that, and frankly I think it shows the FAT curse continues.  But hardly a body-blow.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 09, 2007, 08:07:55 AM
Except -Y-'s proclaimation of "We're going guerrila" seems to be, at best, reactive. (Example: The Moros - allegedly piloted by an alt of a YouWhat director - that got popped trying to flee with a hold full of BPOs/BPCs & named loot the day after their system started getting camped).

-Y- did not expect the Goons to drop anything and jump halfway across the map to fight them, and they certainly didn't expect it to happen within a couple of hours of what will probably become viewed as -Y-'s suicide note on EVE-O.

Besides, it's not like RedSwarm has anything else to do at the moment - LV are all-but-dead, and the southern invasion of BoB's serfs hasn't started...yet. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 09, 2007, 09:11:12 AM
Similarly, had Fix stayed neutral, then that direction would have been safe from threats: one less front.  As it is, Bob have repeatedly had to send massive fleets round their tenants, sometimes two distant ones, in an evening, to shore up defences.
Had Fix try to stay neutral the front would simply be staged *from* Fix space and straight into Delve. Neutral space in EVE isn't something like RL country that no one moves through because it declared no involvement.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 09, 2007, 12:17:44 PM
Any way you slice it, BoB is no longer on the defensive, the coalition has lost the initiative.  Whether that translates into a delay of the inevitable or a turning point depends on what *BoB* does with the initiative now that they have it.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on March 09, 2007, 01:51:30 PM
I hope you are right because after only two weeks playing the game and reading up on the politics I really like it.  The absolute worst thing that could happen to ruin my enjoyment of the game would be BoB crumbling within a few months.  Personally I don't see them having a high chance of survival against the goons and RA, the external factors of GS being based on SA members and RA being crazy close knit funny language speakers seems like far too much of an advantage against any normal type of English language in-game clan.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on March 10, 2007, 03:20:42 AM
Any way you slice it, BoB is no longer on the defensive, the coalition has lost the initiative.  Whether that translates into a delay of the inevitable or a turning point depends on what *BoB* does with the initiative now that they have it.

Attacking FAT doesn't effect anyone except AAA and IAC. Granted it's useful to stop AAA, but all it's served so far is that a lot of the IAC PvP's who were camped at Doril (who the only target to ever fight was YARSK hunters, a russian pirate coward corp who the other russian alliences dont like) are now moving down to FAT.

If BoB/FiX wanted to, they could have taken FAT by now if they'd blitzkrieged it. I suspect BoB dosn't really want it, and it was the only place they *could* attack with ease. Strange thing is, BoB can dived their forces, but instead choose to show up with everything including the kitchen sink as far as capatil ships, but only a smallish support fleet.

BoB won't have the initative until they stop Goons from attacking, and -Y- comming seppuku won't count for long.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 11, 2007, 11:01:11 PM
Another war twist: SMASH alliance that not so long ago helped RED alliance and Goons to overcome LV and conquer their territory is now actively attacked by RED. Apparently because RED wanted full access to 10/10 complex originally promised to SMASH as reward for the war effort.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=489824


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 12, 2007, 12:39:40 AM
Another war twist: SMASH alliance that not so long ago helped RED alliance and Goons to overcome LV and conquer their territory is now actively attacked by RED. Apparently because RED wanted full access to 10/10 complex originally promised to SMASH as reward for the war effort.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=489824
Not much of a twist, this war is all about the 10/10's for RA.  They want them all, letting someone else hold them for a bit is just a temporary arrangement.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Trippy on March 12, 2007, 12:56:46 AM
this war is all about the 10/10's for RA.
Translation?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 12, 2007, 02:21:32 AM
Another war twist: SMASH alliance that not so long ago helped RED alliance and Goons to overcome LV and conquer their territory is now actively attacked by RED. Apparently because RED wanted full access to 10/10 complex originally promised to SMASH as reward for the war effort.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=489824

You forgot to mention a SMASH member stealing a mothership from RA.  I thought RA set SMASH to RA about ten days ago over that?  All that whine about "we warned them not to deal with him" is crap.  They didn't kick him out of their alliance, they admit they knew what he was like, ergo he is their responsibility.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 12, 2007, 02:49:15 AM
this war is all about the 10/10's for RA.
Translation?

The most concentrated form of wealth generation in 0.0 are the complexes (basically dungeons in space).  They are worth from hundreds of millions to billions per day, and 10/10 rated plexes are the most valuable (it's *very* concentrated, because only 4 people can run it each time).  Red Alliance built an incredible wallet (estimated to be from hundreds of billions to trillions) off some bugged 8/10's they exploited for well over a year (spawn timers on certain NPC's inside were messed up), when those were fixed they began their war of conquest, the goal of which is to take over control of all of the 10/10 complexes before the money from the bug exploit runs out.  They used to "squat" a lot of them, but as the population of 0.0 has gone up even being 6 hours ahead of everyone else and having the daily downtime (when the plexes reset) come during their primetime isn't enough to beat local alliances to the spawn.

Smash was foolish to make a deal with RA that involved Smash owning or sharing the 10/10.  RA has let their intent to control the 10/10's leak out several times, both directly and via the goons.  RA has no interest in the rest of the space they control, hence their bargain with GoonSwarm (RA money and Goon manpower is a pretty potent combination), the RA capital fleet backs the goon horde and the russians take the 10/10's, the goons get everything else.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Trippy on March 12, 2007, 03:35:40 AM
Thanks, that makes sense.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 12, 2007, 04:26:41 AM
Another war twist: SMASH alliance that not so long ago helped RED alliance and Goons to overcome LV and conquer their territory is now actively attacked by RED. Apparently because RED wanted full access to 10/10 complex originally promised to SMASH as reward for the war effort.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=489824

You forgot to mention a SMASH member stealing a mothership from RA.  I thought RA set SMASH to RA about ten days ago over that?  All that whine about "we warned them not to deal with him" is crap.  They didn't kick him out of their alliance, they admit they knew what he was like, ergo he is their responsibility.
Plus the SMASH offer to 'repay' RA was only 5 billion...while the scam cost the RA member 10billion ISK + a headful of good implants. Bear that in mind when reading the EVE-O thread with the bleating of "We settled that debt!!!1" The lesson of the story is: Don't fuck with the Russians.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 12, 2007, 05:19:32 AM
Cheers, Mahrin: good background.

Two minor additions would be that the downtime isn't exactly weekday primetime for RA, since most of European Russia is at +3 to GMT/Eve Time.  But it means that any of them whose lifestyle supports running a plex at 3pm (more than enough) certainly have a huge advantage over people in the US.

The other is that GS (as opposed to RA: I wouldn't even know where to find that out...) deny having made the offer to SMASH that they're claiming.  Of course, both sides are now saying pretty much what you would expect them to say.  I expect that the mood in Bob's Fuhrerbunker is not exactly downheartened by the results, either.  It couldn't have worked out better if they'd paid the scammer themselves :tinfoil: ...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 12, 2007, 08:58:49 AM
Remember when RA jumped a dread fleet next to a bunch of LV in siege mode?
They just did the exact same trick to BoB - Ten or eleven BoB dreads down for two RA/-A- ones.  :-D

Edit: Actually 9 dreads plus 1 carrier.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 12, 2007, 09:00:50 AM
Looks like BoB just suffered the fourth biggest loss of capital ships ever in the game, at the hands of Goonfleet* et al.  9 11 (?!!?) dreads in one engagement.  Earlier, GF had suffered a large number of T1 losses in the same system to a nicely placed DD, but it looks like they pulled it back big time.

If the link isn't hammered into the ground within minutes:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0703/2007.03.12.15.12.34.jpg

Edit: dammit, beaten again.  I knew i shouldn't pause to find a link, let alone one which is, indeed, already DDOSed...

*Further Edit: Goonfleet opened the cyno, RA+AAA warped in their dreads.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 12, 2007, 10:55:36 AM
I've noticed some very sloppy behavior from BoB and friends over the past few days. This, along with a few other mishaps that have yet to be made public, are quite puzzling. BoB knows better. Hell, on the same day, they've had some smashing victories involving DD-camps that are rather difficult to break through.

I can't help but think they're up to something.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on March 12, 2007, 11:02:03 AM
Oh I'm sure losing 35 billion's worth is all part of a cunning plan.

At least the destruction of a 80 man IAC fleet yesterday wasn't a complete waste of time, it apperntly allowed the Goons in who dropped the Cyro field.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on March 12, 2007, 11:58:56 AM
I've noticed some very sloppy behavior from BoB and friends over the past few days. This, along with a few other mishaps that have yet to be made public, are quite puzzling. BoB knows better. Hell, on the same day, they've had some smashing victories involving DD-camps that are rather difficult to break through.

I can't help but think they're up to something.
BoB's got to have a limited supply of solid pilots and decent tacticians. They've probably got enough to plan fleet ops around the clock, but you really need skilled people there when the guns start firing to deal with surprises.

And also, there's the matter of experience -- what sort of warfare does BoB have the most experience with? I expect that when they go busting up a camp, they're sending in their best pilots and best field commanders. POS seige's are probably planned out by good tactical commanders, but handed over to field commanders with less experience (unless they're seiging something critical or expect heavy resistance).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 12, 2007, 12:19:30 PM
I've noticed some very sloppy behavior from BoB and friends over the past few days. This, along with a few other mishaps that have yet to be made public, are quite puzzling. BoB knows better. Hell, on the same day, they've had some smashing victories involving DD-camps that are rather difficult to break through.

I can't help but think they're up to something.
Obligatory "They're losing their dev help" comment.  :evil:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on March 12, 2007, 12:21:43 PM
I've noticed some very sloppy behavior from BoB and friends over the past few days. This, along with a few other mishaps that have yet to be made public, are quite puzzling. BoB knows better. Hell, on the same day, they've had some smashing victories involving DD-camps that are rather difficult to break through.

I can't help but think they're up to something.
Obligatory "They're losing their dev help" comment.  :evil:
All things considered, probably the best thing BoB's got going for them in this way is the fools who believe that. The clever ones who don't are the ones doing damage to BoB.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 12, 2007, 01:01:26 PM

What do I need to have for EVE to not run like shit in big engagements? I've got a 6600GT and only a gig a ram but EVE never seems to use more than 400 megs. We had a 30v18 (http://privateer.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=27963) yesterday and it was 1 FPS and less.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 12, 2007, 01:02:26 PM
Turn details down, turn turrets + effects off, turn trails off, sun not occluded by ships. Basically, turn off all teh shiney.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 12, 2007, 01:07:57 PM

The most concentrated form of wealth generation in 0.0 are the complexes (basically dungeons in space). <more about RA and 10/10's>...



Isn't that how RA survived the original coalition formed by LV+Friends? LV wouldn't (couldn't?) chase RA down into the complexes and RA basically having no space outside of 1 station did nothing to their money generation and backbone.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 12, 2007, 01:20:39 PM

The most concentrated form of wealth generation in 0.0 are the complexes (basically dungeons in space). <more about RA and 10/10's>...



Isn't that how RA survived the original coalition formed by LV+Friends? LV wouldn't (couldn't?) chase RA down into the complexes and RA basically having no space outside of 1 station did nothing to their money generation and backbone.

More or less, yes. When F13 was in -V-, RA still held and did all the complexes in -V- space. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the higher-ups about it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 12, 2007, 02:51:06 PM
BoB is also 4 (maybe 5 now?) different 250+ member corps that operate mostly independantly, as self-contained miniature alliances.  Seems like what happened is one corp was detailed out to deal with the KOS situation, and their commanders forgot that if you don't have the OMGWTFBBQ capital ship blob, you need a support fleet to prevent just such an occurrence (50+ dreads can take down a battle POS *without* entering siege mode).  You can operate dreads without a standard fleet, but not without a significant number of carriers (and BoB definitely does not emphasize carriers the way that, for example, FIX does, actually FIX may have more carriers than BoB).  You need *something* that can deal with ship fleets when the dreads are in Siege mode (in Siege, dreads do incredible damage but can't track moving targets, or maneuver themselves).  BoB doesn't do fighter bombing, their non-dread battle doctrine centers on the biggest T2 sniper blob in the game (in general fleet doctrine, RA, -A-, and BoB are all much alike) with a support element mostly consisting of HAC's (too rich for most people's blood, even for how effective they are).

On the other hand, 9 dreads is not the loss to BoB that 21 was to LV.  9 dreadnoughts is less than 20% of BoB's dread muster (probably about 15%), where 21 was about 75% of LV's total strength (and left them with too few to take down a POS, which triggered their rapid collapse).  A very expensive lesson in why you don't operate dreadnoughts without support, but not a disaster.

FIX has learned the hard way to plan our wars around sustainable losses, we lose a lot of cheaply fitted ships in the opening phases, but 2-3 months later we have a qualitative advantage over our opponents (who blew money on lots of T2 and faction gear early on to kick our butts).  So people come in, beat us on the killboards by margins of 2 to 1 or more for the first week or so, then start getting pwned a month later because they were actually losing twice as much money in half as many ships (yes, inspired by Goons).  BoB, RA, and -A- all insist on going to war in the absolute best ships they can afford, with the intent of not losing significant numbers of them because of the qualitative advantage.  But 500M+ isk officer grade modules don't save a ship that's been outmaneuvered into a position where all it can do is die.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 12, 2007, 03:39:45 PM
SMASH offer was 10B, not 5B. They also explained pretty well why they kept well known (so RA knew who they are dealing with, unless we assume that RA are blind, deaf and stupid as rock)  scammer: basically the motherships he fly were worth the risk of carefully watching him.

Regarding 9 BoB dreads, that's what happen when you get 9 dreads jumped by 30. BTW, look at Edie's post - not only he claims 10-11 but also death from hands of Goonswarm (both lies - it was 9 and from hands of RA dread fleet), really cheap propaganda attempt.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 12, 2007, 04:09:47 PM
Regarding 9 BoB dreads, that's what happen when you get 9 dreads jumped by 30. BTW, look at Edie's post - not only he claims 10-11 but also death from hands of Goonswarm (both lies - it was 9 and from hands of RA dread fleet), really cheap propaganda attempt.

Don't be a dick.  I posted as soon as I saw the news, and updated very quickly afterwards when I saw more of what had happened: that GS had opened the cyno and RA and AAA had done the killing.  Your assumption about "propaganda" is bollocks, too.  I'm not a member of GF, though I have been pushing for F13 to get into the FTZ.  I've never been a member of any corp but F13.  I post on the SA boards, sure, because thy're fun.  But I utterly fail to see what difference it would make if GF had done the killing instead of their allies (except that, since they don't have dreads, it would be something of a miracle).

As regards the 11 thing, I openly admitted to the uncertainty in my original post, posting 9 and 11 and "?!?!".  As I now gather, the confusion might come from it being 11 capitals, 2 of which were carriers, but I'm not even sure of that, so didn't add it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 12, 2007, 04:45:46 PM
SMASH offer was 10B, not 5B.
SMASH say it was 10 billion, RA & Goons say it was 5 billion.

/shrug


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 12, 2007, 05:31:27 PM
Endie, ok I overdid a bit. Mainly because first post on EVE:O forums stated 9 dreds from the start (or they're master edit ninjas;-).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 13, 2007, 12:52:43 AM
Endie, ok I overdid a bit. Mainly because first post on EVE:O forums stated 9 dreds from the start (or they're master edit ninjas;-).

No worries... confusion of current events and all that  :lol:

Edit:

The much maligned "they're scared to do anything" D2  alliance just launched a 48-dreadnought attack on Bob "they're honestly not a pet they're totally independent" footstool MC's capital shipyards, rumoured location of an in-progress Leviathan titan.  Someone could end up hurting badly because of this: who depends on how rapid the Bob response is.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v386/Numismancer/2007.jpg)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 13, 2007, 05:06:59 PM
Judging from CAOD on EVE-O, BoB are concerned.
Oh, they're still not posting there...but their alts, spies, and muckrakers are out in full force.  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 13, 2007, 06:00:24 PM
BoB showed up in force (100+ BSes, titan, couple other caps) elsewhere earlier today.

Scooped me some nice tech2 drones.

Edit: Aaaaand I just helped pop my first carrier. :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 13, 2007, 07:25:08 PM
I love shots like that, you can really get a scale for how big some of these structures and ships really are. So is yard in reinforced and when does it come out?


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on March 13, 2007, 07:55:16 PM
Edit: Aaaaand I just helped pop my first carrier. :-D
Can't make posts like that without a link to a km! :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 13, 2007, 08:15:29 PM
Edit: Aaaaand I just helped pop my first carrier. :-D
Can't make posts like that without a link to a km! :-D

Oh sure, be that way (http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22828).

Also, MC may have a Leviathan titan cooking in those yards... Internet rumors ftw.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 13, 2007, 08:44:51 PM
Judging from CAOD on EVE-O, BoB are concerned.
Oh, they're still not posting there...but their alts, spies, and muckrakers are out in full force.  :mrgreen:
You mean the MC shipyards? I've just read that thread, there's something like 5 posts with no alliance tickers whining about D2, and 40 or so from D2 allies patting them on the back and flaming the alts.

Maybe we read different CAODs, but that looks nothing like full force to me.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 13, 2007, 11:21:18 PM
3 more carriers downed on the way home from the original op. Sadly, [SNIGG] got all the killmails. :(

Scratch that:

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22939
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22938
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/22936


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on March 14, 2007, 02:15:15 AM
Generally kills get cross posted if multiple alliances are involved, I know I've posted 1 or 2 on Goon kb where there pilots were involved but I got km.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 14, 2007, 02:19:24 AM
Judging from CAOD on EVE-O, BoB are concerned.
Oh, they're still not posting there...but their alts, spies, and muckrakers are out in full force.  :mrgreen:
You mean the MC shipyards? I've just read that thread, there's something like 5 posts with no alliance tickers whining about D2, and 40 or so from D2 allies patting them on the back and flaming the alts.

Maybe we read different CAODs, but that looks nothing like full force to me.

Oh, I dunno, looks like quite a forum-push to me:

Fall Angelus: Goons leaving coalition? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=490389)
Gnulpie: The end of great southern war? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=489940)
Wylker: Who to believe in the coalition? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=490585)
Blitz'Krieg: Can BoB truly be defeated? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=490729)
Lord Guffy: The feasibility of longterm Bandwagon stability (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=488730)

And so on.  The oh-how-very-odd thing is that the writing style of most of these posts is eerily identical: a title which is a question; a passive-aggressive approach which seeks to damn the coalition with faint praise; lengthy posts with frequent use of short paragraphs but sloppy, faux-foreign grammar; similar character-creation and corp-founding dates (not the last couple of days, usually: more like two to three weeks ago, with a single post on non-controversial stuff).

Of course, in recent weeks, there have been some goon ones too: the most obvious Goon alt was such a retard that he was told to shut up by all sides, in a rare moment of forum consensus.  Both sides do it: it's just interesting who seems to feel the need to spin at any given time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 14, 2007, 02:44:40 AM
Well,

you'd

soon

be

able

to

figure

out

if

any

of

them

were

DBPreacher


-dbp
 :lol:

And on a slightly less irritating note, is anyone else getting a faint sense of deja vu here? Coalition hot-jumping a dread fleet to tear apart a bunch of their enemy's dreads in siege mode (said enemy previously having an aura of invulnerability), swiftly followed by an overwhelming strike against capital shipyards where a titan is rumoured to be cooking....


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 14, 2007, 10:17:09 AM
Oh, I dunno, looks like quite a forum-push to me:

Fall Angelus: Goons leaving coalition? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=490389)
Gnulpie: The end of great southern war? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=489940)
Wylker: Who to believe in the coalition? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=490585)
Blitz'Krieg: Can BoB truly be defeated? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=490729)
Lord Guffy: The feasibility of longterm Bandwagon stability (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=488730)

And so on.
Ah, thought you meant that MC shipyards thing since it was mentioned right before. Overall there's quite a few of these yes. Though they sound so naive, I have to wonder how much of it is simply clueless observers jumping on topic du jour just to feel more important.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 14, 2007, 11:00:40 AM
There is much laughter on the goon forums about this supposed split with RA.

We practically screw each others' sisters.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on March 14, 2007, 03:06:57 PM
Practically?

Yoru you're missing out!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 14, 2007, 04:12:57 PM

Russian mail order brides for all the goons!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 16, 2007, 07:59:18 AM
A major dread fleet just destroyed the Mercenary Coalition (Bob Vassals, although laughably claim to be independent) capital shipyards, with a mothership (one step shy of a Titan) 22 days into construction, with 8 days to go.  As usual, there's some confusion about the results, but the exchange was five coalition (and/or AAA?) dreads for the shipyards, with what seem like some substantial battleship losses, but that's still to be confirmed.  Evil Thug doomsdayed, and the aftermath of the engagement was the coalition controlling the battlefield:

A big hole (http://img.waffleimages.com/244c27d3be90aea2aef331a71a43a834f7597c4e/L5D_6-1.png) where there used to be 20 billion worth of brewing mothership and capital shipyards.

Like i say, this one is still shaking down, so info will doubtless change.  Seleene's responses are pretty measured and informative, but the change in the thread (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=490798&page=10) from "ha ha D2 you failed" when they second attack is launched is fun.  Expect a bazillion Bob alts on the Eve-O boards.

I can't help but wonder if two attacks were always planned, although obviously the Coalition couldn't have expected the servers to mess up as badly as last night.  But it would have been wise to keep up such a high operational tempo: Bob and Vassals had, i gather, 600+ defenders online for the initial attack that was disrupted by the servers.  The second one, presumably, saw rather fewer defenders available as a result.

Edit:  It seems to have been a mainly RA/AAA operation.


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on March 16, 2007, 09:22:22 AM
What the fuck is with people on that forum posting in...

HUGE FUCKING LETTERS?

Makes shit god damn unreadable.  Where the hell are the mods?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 16, 2007, 09:49:57 AM
What the fuck is with people on that forum posting in...

HUGE FUCKING LETTERS?

Makes shit god damn unreadable.  Where the hell are the mods?

The Mods have their work cut out deleting all references to BoD and general developmental cheating.  They don't have time to make it readable.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 16, 2007, 10:25:07 AM
Eve-O is all but unreadable anyway, even without the huge letters.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 16, 2007, 11:30:05 AM
I can't help but wonder if two attacks were always planned, although obviously the Coalition couldn't have expected the servers to mess up as badly as last night.  But it would have been wise to keep up such a high operational tempo: Bob and Vassals had, i gather, 600+ defenders online for the initial attack that was disrupted by the servers.

I'd say both were planned, apparently D2 organized and moved down close to 40-50 capital ships, and the russian alliances had similar numbers ready as well. Both coupled with few hundreds of support ships total. You don't muster up and move such numbers if you don't intend to do something with them.

That or the first was planned and the server lag got in the way, and the second was spur of moment thing that seized good opportunity to get something actually done (see below)


Quote
The second one, presumably, saw rather fewer defenders available as a result.

According to Seleene's report attack happened right before the downtime, in fact split in two by DT (POS was taken to sliver of shield, then servers went down, then finished when they went up)  That means very few people available, with eastern Europe getting upper hand. Either unfortunate timing on MC part, or very good timing on coalition part, or just stroke of luck with the initial strike that put the yard in reinforced. No idea how these things exactly work so hard to tell.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 16, 2007, 12:34:49 PM
So they did end up getting the yards in the end. I was only informed to the point where D2 was ready to finish it then pulled back due to lag+BoB MegaFleet.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 16, 2007, 12:49:50 PM
So they did end up getting the yards in the end. I was only informed to the point where D2 was ready to finish it then pulled back due to lag+BoB MegaFleet.
There was two yards, one came out of reinforced yesterday evening (GMT) the other today around noon. BoB/MC and D2/AAA/RA/etc fleets formed to battle over the first yard but nothing came out of it due to lag et al, and the first yard was repaired/refuelled. The other one was attacked and killed today by AAA/RA operating on their own if I read the forum reports right.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on March 16, 2007, 12:53:17 PM
So they did end up getting the yards in the end. I was only informed to the point where D2 was ready to finish it then pulled back due to lag+BoB MegaFleet.
Primary yard was saved. Secondary yard -- which had an almost-complete Mothership, but not too much else it looks like -- was lost. A pricey lost, but whether it was worth it depends on what was in the primary yard.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 16, 2007, 01:21:23 PM
I guess we will see if they go back for the first yard then?


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 16, 2007, 02:11:14 PM
I have no idea what was in the first yard.  The second was a classic russian DT blitz.  It was about 15-18B of POS and mothership for about 8-12B of dreadnought (depending on how they were fitted).  Disappointing after stopping the northern assault cold the night before, we didn't think they'd have the balls to go after the second.  Obviously, we forgot the russians have larger stones than the germans.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 16, 2007, 02:26:48 PM
I think ET got a hand full of Bships and support with his DD as well.




Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 21, 2007, 02:04:02 AM
Fakeedit: This has been sitting, unposted, on my PC since yesterday, so it's now almost a day old.  Damn meetings.

Bob pulled an alarm-clock operation today, after weeks of fighting in KoS's C3- system, and managed to take a PoS there which will flip sovereignty on the system at last.  It's been a real meat-grinder for them over the weeks, not so much in terms of ship losses (for which they care not a jot) as player time at horrible hours.  KoS had repeatedly pulled the trick of, when BoB killed a Pos, sending in a suicide industrial right into the middle of the dread fleet, which would pop, fuel and online a Pos before it could be destroyed.  As it is, BoB turned up with multiple titans and literally dozens of dreads, and the coalition really didn't have an answer in the end, and got pretty much wiped.  I don't know what exact losses on each side were.

Interestingly, one coalition dread managed to tank 26 enemy dreads for almost 15 minutes until his friends could wipe off the inties long enough for him to get into a PoS shields.  His setup must be startling.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 21, 2007, 06:00:57 AM
Seeing that there were ~300 ragoon+addons present and only 130 bobbites, the simple fact bob managed to survive amazes me.
They also killed 6 POSes, put into reinforced another 5, downed one carrier several hundred support ships.
All of this while being outnumbered 3 to 1 by defenders.



Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 21, 2007, 06:46:22 AM
Numbers like that are pretty meaningless: Bob won because of coherent organisation and supercapital assets, and you could have added another 300 GS T1 frigs and cruisers on top without noticeable effect beyond lag.  Remember that they could press the Iwin doomsday button every twenty minutes and account for huge numbers of lagged-out pilots with no chance of escape.  And the fact that the titan has been given an invincibility buff this patch makes exposing them to do that almost entirely risk-free.  That's not a dig at Bob, by the way: they didn't get the titans in a rigged event.  It's a  :roll: at CCP for continuing lousy game design.

Anyway, even when Bob started to suffer towards the end they had a titan already set up 8 jumps away to retrieve the fleet.  Very nice organisation, and an even nicer number of dreads, motherships, carriers and titans.

I maintain that the coalition's best hope is to be in multiple places in multiple timezones: an alarm-clock op like this, with Bobites having to skip classes and work in some cases, is not a sustainable way to wage war for them, for all that they'll continue to win most set pieces for a while yet.

One funny thing the same day was a chatlog of Shrike speaking to an Outbreak contact.  The Outbreak bloke was asking Bob to set them to blue for a day so they could help their friends in MC defend the capital yards last week.  Shrike said, pretty clearly, not unless you give us something pretty impressive in return.  What will you do for us?  No helping your friends unless you bow to the masters.  That attitude is pretty dumb, and is just the sort of blind short-termism that Mahrin pointed to on the other side.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 21, 2007, 07:14:50 AM
Uhm, DD kills every support in the grid, so using is requires a lot of skill, unless it's your own fleet you want to burn. Besides, to my best knowledge they didn't use much DDing during the whole op.

On the Outbreak thingy, you're reading things that aren't there.
The point was they wanted standings for just few hours, which when you take into account logistics required with setting alliance and every ally's standings back and forth is pretty much pointless (and before you say "it's simple slider, remember how many FF incidents you got due to bad standings yourself:D).
All that was asked for is little longer commitment instead of drive-by shooting. I'm pretty sure if Outbreak said week, or three days they would get their +v no problem.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tazelbain on March 21, 2007, 07:18:22 AM
Off-hour raids are not a sign of good pvp and are not a good sign for BoB.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 21, 2007, 08:23:30 AM
Uhm, DD kills every support in the grid, so using is requires a lot of skill, unless it's your own fleet you want to burn. Besides, to my best knowledge they didn't use much DDing during the whole op.

I read that they used it a bit, but that's not really what I meant, thus my use of the word "could".  Now that they can safely cycle titans at will, they've got a big advantage in certain situations (of which dread-centred pos warfare is one, as Evil Thug showed).  And the fact that they could time their DDing with not nuking their entire support fleet is what I meant when I talked about their great organisation.

Basically, I can't help but think that CCP consider the titan buff to be "working as intended", in that they couldn't fix their fleet/wing/squadron code to stop ultra-lag, so they've made large fleets pretty much suicidal when a titans are around.  Of course, that's up there with SWG's jedi design in the Stupid Ways to Balance Your Endgame stakes, but I doubt if they care much yet.  At least the new contract screen shows "jump scramblers" as an option.  That may rebalance things dramatically.

If anyone doesn't know what CCP did, they gave titans the ability to fit rigs.  Where, previously, the only in-game ways titans had been killed was to either do so before it hatched (LV) or edge-of-exploit (kill logged-off titans, as in ASCN or D2's cases), there was the theoretical danger that someone could deploy a large group of battleships using energy-draining devices to stop the titan jumping out, while also pounding it with someting like dreads to wipe its shields/armour/hull.  It was always unlikely, but just about possible, which placed restrictions on the use of such strategic assets.  Now, with the right rigs and fittings, a titan can reduce the recharge-time for its capacitors (which hold the space-mana needed to jump out) dramatically, to just under a minute, which makes holding it in place pretty much impossible.

As regards Outbreak, what i meant by saying Bob's attitude was short-sighted agrees with what you say about the difficulty of churning through setting standings: for the price of that effort they could have had Outbreak on their side for that set-piece, which (given, again, what Mahrin said) could very well have seen them slide rapidly through neutrality to Bob-aligned.  At the moment, the coalition seem ill-inclined to view such an act with detachment worthy of Realpolitik, and they'd have tried to get punitive on a group currently killing Bob quite happily when they get the chance.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 21, 2007, 08:51:00 AM
Also, with the undocumented "Log off inside POS shields" change (exactly what it sounds like - log off inside a POS shield even with an aggro timer and your ship won't warp anywhere), Titans (and to a slightly lesser extent motherships) are now all-but-unkillable.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 21, 2007, 10:21:37 AM
Uhm, DD kills every support in the grid, so using is requires a lot of skill, unless it's your own fleet you want to burn. Besides, to my best knowledge they didn't use much DDing during the whole op.

Sabababawha? Skill?

No, not really. Warp in a cheap frigate (BoB and pretty much everyone else use Probes) with a cyno gen, pop a cyno, yell over teamsqueak, DD goes off. It's easy enough to scanprobe out the enemy support fleet in a covops if they're not already at a POI - takes about 2 minutes with decent skills. Cynofrig warps to covops, covops warps out while cynofrig is in warp, see above.

The DDs have been used primarily to decimate gatecamps, station camps and the occasional support/sniping BS fleet, from what I hear. The losses inflicted are rather difficult to fully replace in under 20 minutes.

What the DD will do is force the coalition to dramatically shift tactics and find some way to either evade, bait or tank double DDs. If BoB gets 3 titans, it's going to become very difficult on the coalition to make uncoordinated advances. What they'll need to do in that case is focus far more on eliminating BoB vassals and allies while keeping the main fleets tangled up in large engagements elsewhere.

Fortunately, the coalition has the multi-timezone advantage and can thus keep making BoB stay up late or get up early - particularly the Russians. Goonswarm can continually throw meat into the BoB-grinder to keep them occupied, but in the meantime, Evil Thug and friends are free to wreak havoc on the support infrastructure behind enemy lines - taking out T2 production chains and such.

We all knew it wasn't going to be a fast war.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on March 21, 2007, 12:31:59 PM
We all knew it wasn't going to be a fast war.

No - that's what we all hoped for.... :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 21, 2007, 03:01:41 PM
Off-hour raids are not a sign of good pvp and are not a good sign for BoB.

You don't get to choose hours when you are attacking enemy POSes, the time of final fight is up to the defender. So it's at best sign of defender's (in)competence.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on March 22, 2007, 07:36:03 AM
Off-hour raids are not a sign of good pvp and are not a good sign for BoB.

You don't get to choose hours when you are attacking enemy POSes, the time of final fight is up to the defender. So it's at best sign of defender's (in)competence.

The final time is determined by the amount of strontium in the POS. Sure, they could put in 20 hours worth. But that doesn't allow them to decide what time the POS will come out of reinforced unless they know the time they will be attacked in the first place.

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 22, 2007, 09:15:33 AM
Off-hour raids are not a sign of good pvp and are not a good sign for BoB.

You don't get to choose hours when you are attacking enemy POSes, the time of final fight is up to the defender. So it's at best sign of defender's (in)competence.

The final time is determined by the amount of strontium in the POS. Sure, they could put in 20 hours worth. But that doesn't allow them to decide what time the POS will come out of reinforced unless they know the time they will be attacked in the first place.

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.

And besides besides, it was Coalition prime-time:P
Well, at least more goon prime than BOB prime.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 22, 2007, 10:13:22 AM
The Goonswarm capital fleet is still in its nascent form at the moment, though (and the tactics that worked against LV won't work against 2+ Titans).

Or the existing Goonswarm tactics, I should say....


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 22, 2007, 10:16:15 AM
The final time is determined by the amount of strontium in the POS. Sure, they could put in 20 hours worth. But that doesn't allow them to decide what time the POS will come out of reinforced unless they know the time they will be attacked in the first place.

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.

Amount of strontium can be adjusted in the time between beginning of attack and the time shield level hits reinforced state, thus giving defender ability to determine time of fight. The recent destruction of MC yard raised some eyebrows for this very reason, unless the yard that came out at DT was the first being attacked, they could've adjusted the timing to more convenient for them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 22, 2007, 10:20:40 AM
The recent destruction of MC yard raised some eyebrows for this very reason, unless the yard that came out at DT was the first being attacked, they could've adjusted the timing to more convenient for them.
Or MC were more happy to lose those shipyards and the mothership cooking inside them rather than whatever was in their other shipyards (which has also been put into reinforced).

Triage, of a sort.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on March 22, 2007, 10:22:24 AM
The final time is determined by the amount of strontium in the POS. Sure, they could put in 20 hours worth. But that doesn't allow them to decide what time the POS will come out of reinforced unless they know the time they will be attacked in the first place.

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.

Amount of strontium can be adjusted in the time between beginning of attack and the time shield level hits reinforced state, thus giving defender ability to determine time of fight. The recent destruction of MC yard raised some eyebrows for this very reason, unless the yard that came out at DT was the first being attacked, they could've adjusted the timing to more convenient for them.

Can it be done remotely? Otherwise, its a lot easier said than done. Support should have entrances bubbled since they cant be at the POS for fear of death. A good cap fleet will put a tower into reinforced quickly.

Either way, if someone puts some POS in reinforced during some off hours, there would be no choosing the time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 24, 2007, 02:31:23 PM
Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.
Yes they can, if someone from the POS-owning corp with POS permissions is online.  Plus, you can pre-set things like making sure there are 6-8 hour gaps in your strontium levels, so that as long as the enemy doesn't know precisely what your schedule is, *some* of the POS will be coming out at their worst time. Strontium management is a critical element of defense, you can't control when the enemy will attack, but you can control the timing for the strategically essential Round Two.  Doesn't matter how many times the enemy put a POS *into* reinforced, as long as they never get to follow up and knock it out all they've cost you is strontium.  Trying to stop someone in a covert from getting through the blockade to the POS is an excercise in frustration, I've taken mine past gate-camps of 200 ships with multiple large bubbles.

In theory, the coailition's numbers advantage means they can put together a POS-buster force at any hour.  But in practice, there are only two forces capable of fielding the critical mass, and they have been unable to rely on their allies to pump up the numbers and keep their logistics in order (D2 themselves, and RA/AAA).  And thanks to their diplomatic short-sightedness making sure that every in the BoB camp knew they had to stand and fight, and the steady erosion of their own ranks, they don't have much, if any, of a numbers advantage anymore.

Something you need to keep in mind that BoB has had a "Hardcore only" recruitment policy for years, it's not the hardship for them to pull an alarm clock raid as it is for a less militant alliance like D2/TCF/IAC/IRON/....basically everyone but AAA and RA.  And they aren't as weak in any particular TZ as the typical alliance either, they have a sizable contingent of Aussies/Kiwis, and MC is *very* heavy on the europeans.

In the end, it comes down to morale and momentum.  You win wars in Eve by making it not fun to be the enemy, and the coalition isn't having much fun from their war anymore.  The northern coalition's assault has fizzled, Fountain was a complete failure and Querious is a stalemate.  D2 is supporting IRON and company with a few dreads but damned few smaller ships, when the enemy musters less than 70 FIX fights them and generally gives as good as we get, when they roll with more than 100 MC and BoB join the party and they get hammered, and in between we just bunker up and wait for them to go away.  FIX is probably the hardest alliance to try and break via a siege, both because of the easy logistics offered by the geometry of ED-, and because we've been through that particular trial so often everyone who can't handle it left long ago.

This has freed up BoB and MC to go on the offensive, and they're taking full advantage.  Northern industrial POS are getting taken down almost every day, FAT is about to fall, and the RedSwarm advance has been stopped.  Agressive anti-pod scanning has made AAA and RA leave their good implants at home (and the coming patch that will stop people from logging out to escape bubbles will finish off the days of 3B isk clones), which has cut a lot of their military advantage and they're getting outperformed tactically.  Meanwhile, the turnouts from all the second and third tier alliances in both coalitions are in the toilet, both because of the fracturing of those coalitions and because many of them are waking up to the fact that this war is going to leave the surviving 2 super-powers even stronger and with no counterweights for them to be played off against, while doing little or nothing for them.

As for BoB and Outbreak, consider it a religious thing.  Both are composed entirely of hard-core PvP'ers, but where Outbreak hates alliance politics and is formed of people who just wanted maximum pew-pew without concerning themselves with diplomatic entanglements, BoB considers diplomacy and politics as "war by other means" and embraces them.  Outbreak doesn't *care* what the coalition thinks of them, pro or con, they're going to keep doing their thing regardless.  Their participation in the MC cap-yard defense had nothing to do with their relationship to BoB, and everything to do with their relationship to MC.  It's entirely possible they'll be fighting against BoB next week, and it will mean precisely as much in terms of their long-term intentions: nothing.  Because their long-term intentions have nothing to do with territorial warfare, and are all about the pew-pew.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on March 25, 2007, 01:59:20 AM
FAT is about to fall, and the RedSwarm advance has been stopped.

Don't be too proud of the technological terrors you setup in FAT (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=496880).

Granted apperntly BoB payed for the POS's that just got destroyed, so it didn't cost FIX anything bar a couple of tech 1 indys. I am somewhat surprised BoB didn't come to do anything about it, but I'm guessing the'll be back after downtime to put another 10 deathstars down.

Goons came to help at one point and killed some of the POSs, but the majority were IAC (and I don't think AAA particapted either).


It's going to be a long war.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 25, 2007, 09:11:16 AM
Yeah, when I saw that news about FAT I couldn't help but think back to Mahrin's post.  Better comedy timing for an extended "we r teh killahz and all your bases will shortly belong to us" spiel would be hard to imagine.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 25, 2007, 01:27:55 PM
Rumor has it that a carrier was also, uh, unfortunately misplaced by a random FIXian.

It somehow later showed up in the Goonfleet inventory.

The darndest things just seem to happen these days. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vedi on March 25, 2007, 02:23:56 PM
So can any of you Goonie types confirm or deny  this Eve-O thread (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=495639)?

The short of it is that Burn Eden got wind of Goonfleet treachery, stole 3 motherships, some BPOs and podded Remedial.

edit: Fixed link to go to right thread.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 25, 2007, 02:30:13 PM

I don't think you linked to the thread you thought you linked to.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 25, 2007, 02:43:57 PM
So can any of you Goonie types confirm or deny  this Eve-O thread (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=495639)?

The short of it is that Burn Eden got wind of Goonfleet treachery, stole 3 motherships, some BPOs and podded Remedial.

edit: Fixed link to go to right thread.
It's all true, except for the parts which aren't.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on March 25, 2007, 03:15:03 PM
So can any of you Goonie types confirm or deny  this Eve-O thread (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=495639)?

The short of it is that Burn Eden got wind of Goonfleet treachery, stole 3 motherships, some BPOs and podded Remedial.

edit: Fixed link to go to right thread.

It's a joke.  BE have left(on good terms) however, but only because they were sick of having so many blue.  Some goon suggested cooking up a scam story to get Eve-o all a flutter and that's what we threw together.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 25, 2007, 06:12:18 PM
Rumor has it that a carrier was also, uh, unfortunately misplaced by a random FIXian.

It somehow later showed up in the Goonfleet inventory.

The darndest things just seem to happen these days. :)
Unless there was more than one that's IAC, not Goonfleet. Tyrrax had it shown on screenshot posted on eve-o forums.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 25, 2007, 06:15:40 PM
Rumor has it that a carrier was also, uh, unfortunately misplaced by a random FIXian.

It somehow later showed up in the Goonfleet inventory.

The darndest things just seem to happen these days. :)
Unless there was more than one that's IAC, not Goonfleet. Tyrrax had it shown on screenshot posted on eve-o forums.

Same difference. Just another small laceration.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 25, 2007, 08:29:07 PM
Same difference.

If it's same difference then may as well tell it how it really is, rather than try to take credit for someone else's doing.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 25, 2007, 10:12:16 PM
Same difference.

If it's same difference then may as well tell it how it really is, rather than try to take credit for someone else's doing.

I didn't actually know the guy was IAC. Christ. Remove sand from vagina, please.

Sanitized chatlog:

Quote
X: well i did spend 9 hours of my time helping setup those pos. 4 of them i personally put up
X: also did want my carrier
X: which was stolen by goons saturday
X: bout 2 bill there. its replaceable im not concerned overly. but mildly annoying
X: gg spies


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on March 26, 2007, 12:13:22 AM
Just skimming through BoB's killboards to get a feel for what's going on, I saw this (http://killboard.net/details/143935/).  :-o Anyone got infoz? I don't have the time to browse through scrapheap-challenge :(


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 26, 2007, 03:41:57 AM
Just skimming through BoB's killboards to get a feel for what's going on, I saw this (http://killboard.net/details/143935/).  :-o Anyone got infoz? I don't have the time to browse through scrapheap-challenge :(

As i understand it, he got jumped by a well-thought-out BoB trap, decided to tank instead of try to escape, and got popped (along with some other ships that tried to help him out.  The post I saw from RA about it said something like "We make mistake.  It no happen again."


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 26, 2007, 04:35:32 AM
Russkies though they were smart, ambushing RISE forces sieging  their POS, little they knew entire attack was part of a plan to ambush the ambushers :mrgreen:
Moment RA forces engaged, BoB titan opened warp gate and cunning ambush become slaughterhouse. I believe 2 Carriers and one Mothership was downed.
Two days ago 6 D2 dreads were atomized, however that seems happening so frequently those days it's not worth reporting.

On FIX spy scandal:
Uhm, if RAgoon has to use spies to fight against "pet"* few orders of magnitude smaller than them, it says a lot about their fighting skills, or rather lack of thereof:P

On BE:
Birds say Goons hired BE (they're mercs after all) and at this fake drama-bomb is just a smoke screen.


*this one got teeth:P


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 26, 2007, 08:34:18 AM
On FIX spy scandal:
Uhm, if RAgoon has to use spies to fight against "pet"* few orders of magnitude smaller than them, it says a lot about their fighting skills, or rather lack of thereof:P
Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.
Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

;)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on March 26, 2007, 08:41:43 AM
AFIAK, and rembembering Tyraxx is/was a member of the GHSC so anything he says is a lie anyway....Goonswarm Intel Service had nothing to do with the FIX FAT spy, it was a FIX pilot who decided to come over to the good guys side (my guess is was "Hey Tyraxx, I have access too the FIX POS's in FAT, how much will you bid for them?", and Tyraxx paid the ISK needed).

It was cool when I was undocking from FAT to see 3 OHGOD Caldari Dreadnoughts warping out to one of the POS's. The IAC fleet outnumbered the Goonswarm fleet though. I used about 5000 rounds of torpedo's myself and spendt 1/2 the battle AFK, just alt-tabing to rearm more torpedos.

Tyraxx also stole the carrrier I think using the same agent (while he had an IAC lockdown the system while he quickly trained "Carrier 1").

I do not know if the agent was discovered or not, I think he was, but I'm not sure. I'm sure FIX isn't sure either.


I do think it's a pity that many FIX pilots will die for BoB's and T20's mistakes.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 26, 2007, 08:48:30 AM
Speaking of mistakes: The ISS Convoy scheme listed in the EVE-O news - [Img-Ackbar] or genuine stupidity?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 26, 2007, 11:02:40 AM
I do not know if the agent was discovered or not, I think he was, but I'm not sure. I'm sure FIX isn't sure either.

From what I've read, FIX doesn't know who the spy/spies was/is/were/are. At least, not as of early yesterday, I haven't paid attention since then.

And anyway, the use of spies is just another form of warfare. In fact, it's often a better one since it costs less than fielding ridiculous numbers of capships and can actually turn a profit if the spies are good at quietly funneling assets away.

It's also amusing to see how, even on this neutral board, people aligned with either side, either in fact or in mind, are utterly convinced they're the ones winning.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on March 26, 2007, 11:06:43 AM
I'm aligned with the coalition and I don't think we are going to win.

The reason? Its a massive clusterfuck :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 26, 2007, 11:09:09 AM
I'm aligned with the coalition and I don't think we are going to win.

The reason? Its a massive clusterfuck :)

Agreed. I think we're just going to have a giant stalemate for a long time. The current target has had its ass against the wall several times before, for extended periods of time, without breaking down into the cascade failure the leadership is expecting.

But that just means more shooty for me. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on March 26, 2007, 12:59:12 PM
POS warfare is too inherently stalematey. Maybe the deadlock will be broken with Revelations 2.0, but the devs really haven't given out sufficient information to make that call yet.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Verify on March 27, 2007, 09:40:23 AM
This was too good not to post here:

Quote
Originally Posted by Goons on the way and starting a campaign of shenanigans!
Ok so Malindah kindly passed me this intel today from a source (reliable)

"Goons are being recalled to Agil. Not for any specific op but in general - against FIX. There is Mittani's sticky thread on their forums giving a lot of details about FIX - names of their leaders, officers, known directors and so on. Mittani is telling his goons to scam them, harass and do other... not very nice things He also listed complexes, choke points and other important info about Querious."

Be on the alert for scams and other such crap and stuff like you really shouldnt have to deal with in an on-line game, keep logs too incase it crosses a line!

Do not deal with anyone claiming to be an alt of leadership or anyone else etc etc, basically just take extra care in everything and be ready for it.

Yesterday I was contacted by an alt claiming to belong to Laird about cheap POS's after passing it onto Mal he then claimed to be Breakerjoe's alt.

I will put out a less specific alliance mail to this effect too.

James


---

Phase two it is, then. This one's going to be the hectic part

---

(Ok, here we go.)

What has become of a game that would drive people this low? What has become of honor? Will such people be allowed to complete their goals using such dishonorable and underhanded and downright mean tactics. I pray not.

In the SA war, even in the CODA war, I have never heard of our advarsaries going this low. Again, what has become of honor, even among advarsaries?

EVE is become a game that is very difficult to play these days. Between being very poor in PVP, being cruely ganged upon by the Goons, RL needs, and to top it off hearing about CCP's decision to give suicide gankers the means and rewards to search for big payoff targets in areas meant to be safe (see my rant in the relevant thread in the general forum) makes my sorrow all the more unbearable.

There is not much I can do for my corp or alliance these days, except pray. IMHO, God has delievered FIX many times from the brink since the first SA war. The prayer I posted above 9cg station has been answered. I thank Him for that, and I hope God will answer it now, and defeat those who wish to undermine us so cruelly and thoughtlessly.

It is one thing to fight against BOB and allies because of ideals. (they aren't perfect either, and I don't always like the manner they conduct themselves, regardless of recent allegations), but to go this low...It's just unexcusable.

I hope we can be lifted up, strengthened in resolve, Christ-like in mutual charity, and fight this. Fight with honor, fight with conviction, and make a good accounting of ourselves amd Gpd willing, rout this foe. I hope I could be a little more like that, and the time available to do that, maybe I could. But it's hard...JAKD and FIX has suffered much these past months, some wounds self inflicted, and they have yet to fully heal.

We need to get back on our feet, and stand tall again, even in the face of such darkness.

God save FIX.

Creed

ps...Please forgive this little emotional piece, recent events and reading have brought my spirits down and I needed to vent a bit.

This is from FIX director forums.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 27, 2007, 10:48:07 AM
Holy shit, I actually just fell out of my chair laughing.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Miasma on March 27, 2007, 10:49:17 AM
Are they an RP guild with some sort of futuristic church cult leaning or was he serious about all the God and Jesus coming down to help him in an MMO stuff?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Verify on March 27, 2007, 10:59:52 AM
He is serious.

We will definitely be using that post in our future newbie recruiting drives.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on March 27, 2007, 11:03:43 AM
That is friggin great.

Just know this.... God can't save any of you when my gank crew rolls through ;)



Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 27, 2007, 11:05:37 AM
This was apparently culled from the EveO boards. He's a total carebear nutball.

Quote from: Stuff
Originally Posted by Creed Richards (Dark Centuri Inc.) <Firmus Ixion>
This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was.

Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended?

Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe?

Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is low security and 0.0 space. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of greifing in that area as well, but that is another question.

But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot?

You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything?

Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?!

Why have you not done anything?

But now, you've given suicide gankers the ultimate prize, loot from freighters.

You give them the ability to destroy billions in investment, whether they are AFK or not, irrespective of the safety high security space should provide.

Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not?

You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security.

Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec.

Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below.

My 2 cents, God Bless

Creed Richards

Those that wish to sign this petition, please do.

Oh yeah, and that sound you just heard? That's the morale of every ganker in the coalition, as well as every single Goon, reaching orbit.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 27, 2007, 11:14:04 AM
FIGHT LIKE JESUS WOULD FIGHT.

This guy missed his calling. He should have been in Darkon the movie.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on March 27, 2007, 12:51:19 PM
Are non-wardecced freighters now being ganked regularly in empire?  What brought this on, exactly?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on March 27, 2007, 12:56:07 PM
Uhh the change that made freighters drop loot when asploded?


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on March 27, 2007, 01:04:38 PM
Well, seeing how it takes 20 battleships to suicide-gank a freighter, I figure even 3-4 battleships as escort would throw in enough of a delay for Concord to finish off the suiciders before the freighter explodes, no?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 27, 2007, 01:25:47 PM
Well, seeing how it takes 20 battleships to suicide-gank a freighter, I figure even 3-4 battleships as escort would throw in enough of a delay for Concord to finish off the suiciders before the freighter explodes, no?

Not if you have a hauler buddy in a newbie-corp or neutral corp scooping the loot in a WCS-equipped industrial. He should be able to scoop n' scoot before being blown up, despite the kill rights.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on March 27, 2007, 02:54:51 PM
Indy size: 17k to 30k cargo hold.  Freighter size:  900k cargo hold.  It would require 25+ industrials to get everything.  I guess you could have a few haulers around to pick up the best stuff, but most of the time the freighter would be full of T2 modules, T2 ships, and/or minerals, and all of that stuff is valuable.  Maybe the 20-25 battleship pilots that are required to suicide to bring a freighter down can immediately jump into haulers and go collect the booty, but likely it'll just be a free-for-all for everyone in local to come get the free loots and ISK's.

And what I meant was, the escorts could either shield-boost the freighter, repair the freighter, or provide decoy targets for some of the drones attacking the freighter, thus lowering DPS on the freighter long enough for Concord to finish off the attackers.  The 20 attacking battleships only have a limited time to pull the attack off, because Concord spawns right away and jams/blows them up; even a small reduction in their DPS will mean failure. 

I spose they could bring 200 battleships and 30 haulers and take the freighter out with an alpha strike, and then loot it, shrug.  Empire fleet "warfare."


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 27, 2007, 03:09:55 PM
Don't be too proud of the technological terrors you setup in FAT (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=496880).

Granted apperntly BoB payed for the POS's that just got destroyed, so it didn't cost FIX anything bar a couple of tech 1 indys. I am somewhat surprised BoB didn't come to do anything about it, but I'm guessing the'll be back after downtime to put another 10 deathstars down.

Goons came to help at one point and killed some of the POSs, but the majority were IAC (and I don't think AAA particapted either).


It's going to be a long war.
That is definitely true, it will be a very long war.  But BoB didn't pay for the towers, I know that for an absolute certainty, the claim they did was apparently another bit of social engineering to go with the rest of the betrayal (they were defueled by the alt of an apparent goon, and The Mittani takes public credit for arranging it), just like the claim that they had been allowed to run out of fuel through incompetence that starts that thread.  It's definitely driven home the lesson I've been harping about for weeks (the crappy quality of our security when it comes to who has POS roles).  Ideally, we'd have the capability of giving POS permissions on a case-by-case basis, or at least restricting them when the POS was strategic rather than economic.  Having people who just were setting up industrial or field-base POS able to turn the tide of a battle like this is a major flaw in Eve.

5-6 billion worth of POS is not exactly chump change, but the loss of momentum is of greater concern.  However, IAC should really think about who they've jumped in bed with (did you ever wonder who it was that paid for Prohibition 1?).  Having allies for whom betrayal and grief is not just a means, but a desirable goal in and of itself....  Up until this, FIX respected IAC, we saw them as okay guys that the tides of politics had happened to put on the other side of the battlefield.  The "you're just jealous you didn't do it to us first" attitude displayed by the IAC posters in that thread will come back to haunt them someday.

As for the slightly over-the-top rhetoric about the betrayal on our internal forums, no, we're not some bunch of RP-ers.  However, we do believe that even though the game is only a game, the relationships inside of it are real, and in-game betrayal is as much a testament of character as any other.  If you're playing a game of Monopoly, and you find out the "banker" is cheating, do you make a judgement about him/her as a person that goes beyond the game?

This guy came to us whining about what assholes AAA were, worked his way into a position of trust, then used that trust to give the goonies/IAC by betrayal what they would have had great difficulty taking by other means.  The meaninglessness of what he gave away only underscores the weakness of character that caused him to do it.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on March 27, 2007, 03:28:13 PM
The meaninglessness of what he gave away only underscores the weakness of character that caused him to do it.

I'd do it to your corp in one second flat, WAR is WAR, it's a pretend starship game and you can pretend to be a spy in it.  The whole in-game actions reflect RL personality argument is a crock of shit and always has been.  Praying to God to help you because your corp is about to get their arse kicked is just as valid a playstyle as going undercover with an alt, I'd personally chose the 2nd playstyle just because I'm fairly sure God has better things to do.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 27, 2007, 03:41:23 PM
Stepping back and putting on my "designer" hat for a moment, you have to admit this: Everyone in this fight *cares* about it in a way that no operator-created content could ever hope to inspire.  Even the goons are being seduced by it, if in a very "dark side" sort of way.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 27, 2007, 03:51:39 PM
The meaninglessness of what he gave away only underscores the weakness of character that caused him to do it.

I'd do it to your corp in one second flat, WAR is WAR, it's a pretend starship game and you can pretend to be a spy in it.  The whole in-game actions reflect RL personality argument is a crock of shit and always has been.  Praying to God to help you because your corp is about to get their arse kicked is just as valid a playstyle as going undercover with an alt, I'd personally chose the 2nd playstyle just because I'm fairly sure God has better things to do.

Agreed. I've always enjoyed a good spy or conspiracy story. If I can act one out on the grand, meaningless expanse of the internets, awesome. It's like being the center of a little novel that I write with my own wits. And it's something you can't get in most other MMO contexts, too. :-D

Stepping back and putting on my "designer" hat for a moment, you have to admit this: Everyone in this fight *cares* about it in a way that no operator-created content could ever hope to inspire.  Even the goons are being seduced by it, if in a very "dark side" sort of way.

--Dave

This is what the Biz people call "stickiness". Or "barrier to exit".

Or, with CCP's present case, "Would you like to stay for lunch? ..."


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on March 27, 2007, 04:43:32 PM
Stepping back and putting on my "designer" hat for a moment, you have to admit this: Everyone in this fight *cares* about it in a way that no operator-created content could ever hope to inspire.  Even the goons are being seduced by it, if in a very "dark side" sort of way.

--Dave

Its the only way to go. You can only whack a foozle so many times before it becomes old. If you give me a reason to whack a foozle, like helping support my PVP, then I'll do it forever. "Meaningful PVP"... Only experienced it in a few games and Eve is one of them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 29, 2007, 02:23:54 PM
It seems that the coalition just destroyed the BoB capital shipyards, complete with pre-natal titan inside.  Quite a few attacking titans down, as was inevitable.

Gotta be a blow for Band of "You're all dead, you just don't know it yet" Brothers to have it driven home that, if their enemies can stick to it, there's nothing that they can't take.

I honestly thought that there was no way that this would happen: the sheer volume of defenders and their titans, motherships etc seemed too huge.  The lag seems to have been horrible for just about everyone, too.

Edit: The attention of the massive cap fleet the coalition brought has turned onto the Bob supercaps.  Presumably there are going to be tens of thousands of dollars of damage done tonight to all concerned unless someone scarpers, soon.

Further Edit: Goodness knows what's happening.  Seleene (shudder with repulsion) is trying to claim that all the coalition dreads involved and left will die.  Sounds like "Go! Please! Or we'll start trying!".  It'll be a while before anyone knows, I imagine.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 29, 2007, 02:53:36 PM
Apparently you had some nasty friendly fire incident:D
No Titan under fire, nor a single MS dead on BoB side at the time of writing.


This obviously might change later.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 29, 2007, 02:55:43 PM
Joe, you really need to calm down with the "propaganda!  propaganda!" stuff.  I edited that bit out fully ten minutes before you replied.  And when it was there I said "this is people getting over-excited.. titans don't die"

Edit:  With the servers stuffed, I gather the order to log off for now has been given.  I wonder what will happen when the north-american primteime comes round in a couple of hours?


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 29, 2007, 03:05:16 PM
I wonder if the dreads attacking the POS managed to log or were destroyed. Initial count suggest around 40 "missing" dreads:)


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 29, 2007, 03:16:04 PM
Lag is awful and reports are fragmented, but on one side you've got a dead POS which probably contained a Titan under construction (60-75B, not even default insurance because it's not completed), on the other you have a huge number of coalition capitals killed.  Reports that 3 coalition titans were killed (only default insurance of 40% since they can't be docked, so roughly 40-50B each) and an unknown but apparently large number of dreadnoughts (roughly 600M-1B each after insurance, depending on fittings).  Reports that one of the BoB titans might have been killed as well (which have been denied inside the BoB camp, and they have never tried to spin that way internally).  And probably a few hundred lesser ships on each side, call it 20-40B.

If losses on the attacking side are as bad as indicated, this would not be the kind of victory the coalition can afford, the objective was accomplished but the cost was incredible (we're talking hundreds of billions, equivalent to tens of thousands of real dollars).  And we've established once and for all that the servers, high-end and beefed up as they are, cannot support fleet fights of this scale.  The really interesting question is what CCP does about reimbursement, normally in such laggy fights they reimburse ship losses, *but* they have a policy of not reimbursing super-capitals under any conditions.  If they don't reimburse anything, on the grounds that everyone knew this was going to be a lagfest and jumped in anyway, the coalition war machine is pretty much wrecked for the next month or so even if they have the funds on hand to replace all those ships (takes a lot of time to build that many capital ships).  If they reimburse everything but the titans, the battle goes to BoB but not by such a crushing margin.  If they reimburse everything but the titan that was still building, it's a defeat for BoB.  It's complicated by the fact that many of those capitals did not die to lag per se, but because they were deliberately jumped in without support to assault the POS (and indeed were able to kill it, which argues against the lag theory of reimbursement).

And overall, the fact that who wins or loses in this battle will be decided by how CCP handles the reimbursement is a major problem for CCP and the Eve community.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 29, 2007, 03:24:45 PM
Titans died? What?

I thought everyone believed, up until now, that the bastards were nigh-all invincible? Or are we talking about the titan pilots experiencing client crashes, and thus highly vulnerable uncontrolled titans?


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 29, 2007, 03:30:14 PM
I cannot confirm any titan loss or kill tbh. Though with this lag it might have been possible.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 29, 2007, 03:31:26 PM
I'd be amazed if titans died.  I'd also be amazed if there was any reimbursements.  Everyone came to that fight knowing what would happen.

And even the upper end of Mahrin's estimates, which seem way more than other reports, would still surely be worthwhile to stop another well-nigh indestructible ship appearing, not to mention proving that any system, anywhere, can be attacked.

Edit:  Joe's right, I suppose if a titan were to die, these would be the conditions for it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 29, 2007, 03:32:28 PM
Alternate version:
Somewhere over two dozen coalition dreads down (plus a handful of carriers) - mostly T1 fitted. No Titans. RA took the brunt of the losses, but has replacement dreads cooking already.

BoB: Down one titan-under-construction (i.e. no insurance) plus one capship yard. And one aura of omnipotence.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on March 29, 2007, 03:41:12 PM
Alternate version:
Somewhere over two dozen coalition dreads down (plus a handful of carriers) - mostly T1 fitted. No Titans. RA took the brunt of the losses, but has replacement dreads cooking already.

BoB: Down one titan-under-construction (i.e. no insurance) plus one capship yard. And one aura of omnipotence.

Yeah I'd go with that version from what I was reading, crazy lag, I was one gate away when I got popped.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 29, 2007, 03:46:35 PM
Idon't get what you're saying about the coalition train being derailed by these losses, Mahrin.  I mean, I think that the capital losses (although more t1 fitted) will be higher than you're suggesting, but these are spread across the biggest alliances in the game.  And RA are infamously rich, thanks to the complexes.

Edit: I meant to say, the screenies from the various staging sites showed hundreds of caps.  Like, hundreds.  And people were complaining that only a small percentage got through the lag to reach the target.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on March 29, 2007, 03:53:47 PM
My best friend from highschool pilots one of the goonfleet dreads. I'm at work, on IRC, here's what he tells me -

               
(him) ffff
(me) ?
(him) crazy stuff about to go down in eve
(him) there has to be like 200+ caps on our side
(me) yeah? secret shit?
(me) how did that happen
(me) big change from last week when you guys were in the pos shields and iraf was tanking 25 dreads
(him) shitload of alliances, plan in to pop a bob titan being made
(him) ha yeah
(me) oh that'll be nice. is it still opsec?
(him) i'm sure
(me) system coming out of reinforced soon?
(me) er, station
(him) still setting up think it's like 20-30 mins till out of reinforced               
(me) oh that'll be rad
(him) hopefully the game doesnt just instashit itself
(him) well, looks like we aborted another titan
(him) the screen never loaded for me but oh well
(me) hahah
(me) you being there means that one of their guys had a black screen too
(him) yeah, i'd say maybe 1/4 of our fleet was able to actually load
(me) they need to fix that shit. how many people did they have in system
(me) guess you got out alive?
(him) not really
(him) I tried to jump out, and it took all my cap away but i'm still in the hostile system and all the enemy dreads just loaded on my screen
(me) haha fuck
(him) show 400 in local now but who knows how many there actually were
(him) something like 300 ready to jump in


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 29, 2007, 04:02:57 PM
The cherry on top: The titan-under-construction was about three days away from launch.
Ouch.

Edit: Seleene claims coalition losses closer to 50, for the little that's worth.
Edit2: vv If that's true, it couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 29, 2007, 04:05:10 PM
Here's the numbers from the map in the three main battle systems.

F-TE1T 198 ships exploded in last 24 hours (124 last hour). Pilots last 30 minutes 405.
K-6K16 164 ships exploded in last 24 hours (102 last hour). Pilots last 30 minutes 152.
D-3GIQ 58  ships exploded in last 24 hours (37 last hour).Pilots last 30 minutes 65.


Apparently, DigitalCommunist (BoB guy) lost a Nyx.

D2 View: http://freenet-homepage.de/winchip2/2007.03.29.21.25.25.jpg
BoB View: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0703/f-t_battle.jpg


Title: Re: War
Post by: Miasma on March 29, 2007, 07:07:05 PM
D2 View: http://freenet-homepage.de/winchip2/2007.03.29.21.25.25.jpg
BoB View: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0703/f-t_battle.jpg
Are all those dots ships or are some of those just drones and other stuff?


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on March 29, 2007, 07:21:44 PM
spin

I've never played Eve, but I have to imagine that walking into BoB's lair and successfully kicking them in the nuts is a victory for the other side, almost entirely regardless of what it cost.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on March 29, 2007, 07:26:36 PM
Yeah, but now the catch is whether  there were nuts to be kicked. Newest spin is that POS in question was producting nothing of value in which case it wouldn't be kick in the nuts ut rather running into minefield and beingblown up in the middle.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on March 29, 2007, 09:22:12 PM
Are all those dots ships or are some of those just drones and other stuff?

Rectangles are ships, X'es are drones.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 29, 2007, 09:51:56 PM

http://static.griefwatch.net/gallery/51b1a0a94578e49d68aa4b90a7f3d6e1.jpg
http://static.griefwatch.net/gallery/87a96d71d6268caafe126831a425b12e.jpg
http://static.griefwatch.net/gallery/8eb26c01f33d4d1467bdd941104588a7.jpg

Dunno if this last one is from the battle.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6541/hello2ad5.jpg


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 29, 2007, 10:12:23 PM
Well, final tally seems to be 57 enemy capital ships (50 dreads 7 carriers) with no capital losses on our side, conventional ship proportions are nearly as bad (all the systems on the regular routes were heavily camped by affiliate alliances, which is why the capitals had to jump in without support).  As for what was in the array: Nobody who knows seems to be saying (but indications are that the RKK leadership seemed pretty pissed when the POS went down).  Not long ago it would be impossible to conceal if it were empty or not, as it took hundreds of trips to load the components, but for the last few months it's been possible to unload freighters in space (from GFC's, but you can't load in space until the next major patch) so once horrendous logistics ops are now pretty easy.

No word on enemy supercapitals, so those reports may have been just over-enthusiastic rumor.  Anyway, it's by far the biggest and most costly battle Eve has ever seen.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 29, 2007, 10:31:37 PM
I can't imagine a supercapital blowing up without the mail getting priority and/or being spammed everywhere with much gloating.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 29, 2007, 11:12:35 PM
(all the systems on the regular routes were heavily camped by affiliate alliances, which is why the capitals had to jump in without support)

This is false. The system was capped at 400 ships. No more ships could enter the system. The coalition claims to have had 1000 ships.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on March 29, 2007, 11:37:28 PM
SHC has the system cap as 700.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on March 29, 2007, 11:45:58 PM
Any kind of cap is pretty damn lame. That could totally mess up the already screwed up PoS war mechanics. Want to take/defend a system? Just fill it up to capacity, no chance for retaliation!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on March 30, 2007, 01:12:26 AM
SHC has the system cap as 700.

The people in the EVE-O thread claim CCP anticipated the battle and put in the 400 cap so it wouldn't crash the node. The "198 ships exploded in last 24 hours (124 last hour). Pilots last 30 minutes 405." numbers I took from the map at the time seem to back this up.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 30, 2007, 01:19:04 AM
I've checked into it, the cap was 700.  BoB could have crammed the system full, there were 400-500 friendly pilots in neighbouring systems, plus at least 100 non-BoB capitals on standby.  They apparently chose to keep all but actual BoB pilots out (except for about half the capitals), blockading in nearby systems.  And apparently it never actually reached the 700 cap, the attackers chose not to use the Titan jump-bridge to bring in support ships with the capitals, and about half those capitals never finished their jump in-system.

Hmm....  I wonder, if BoB puts another POS back up on the same site, is it going to be wtfpwning late arrivals?

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 30, 2007, 01:39:36 AM
The claim that there was nothing but a dread in that Pos is pretty lol: I thought that they would claim this as soon as I heard the attack was going to go in, and BoB alts started that before te pos popped.

The funny thing is that, even if it is true - and there is always that chance - the reaction on the SA boards is that it's hilarious, and that if it's true then they just get to go in again.

Mahrin saying that BoB deliberately kept numbers low is fist-bitingly funny, though.  These are the logged-off tian killers, after all: they don't play LV e-honor games. They did what most people who had advanced notice of such a tactical advantage would: kept ship numbers at a proportion of the cap which they thought would let them deal with a slow feed of ships.  They just thought that there would be less of a commitment to do it and damn the losses, through a second unsupported cap jump-in.  Far better to churn through the enemy a few at a time in a Stirling Bridge engagement, they thought, than have them find they can't attack at all and force CCP to remove their protection next time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 30, 2007, 01:53:46 AM
One thing for certain: This battle resolves nothing.  At best, both sides have taken a large hit to their materiel, of approximately equal scale.  If BoB actually did pull a fast one and that POS was a decoy or contained a lesser ship, we'll never know for certain (unless another Titan hits the field in a few days).  57 capitals are not replaced overnight in spite of the rhetoric, neither is a capital shipyard.  Neither side seems very demoralized.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on March 30, 2007, 02:02:36 AM
Cheerleading

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're making me root for the other side.


Title: Re: War
Post by: gimpyone on March 30, 2007, 02:03:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xiUQ1soqQQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xiUQ1soqQQ)
Footage! of what I wish eve combat really looked like.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 30, 2007, 02:06:35 AM
Cheerleading

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're making me root for the other side.
Hey, give me a break, I'm the *only* one on my side here.

--Dave

EDIT: You know, I've gone back and re-read everything I wrote, and I don't see the cheerleading.  I'm just trying to report how things look from this side of it.  BoB could have put more numbers in and saturated the system, I didn't speculate as to why but merely pointed out the fact they didn't.  If it was a "Stirling Bridge" strategem, I would think they'd have left less headroom, but does it matter?  BoB lost a cap shipyard and won't say even to their own members what was in it, the coalition lost a whole crapload of standard capitals and says they'll replace it out of petty cash by tomorrow.  Somehow, I think neither side of it is being completely honest.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 30, 2007, 02:28:09 AM
57 capitals are not replaced overnight in spite of the rhetoric, neither is a capital shipyard.

I don't know any more than what I've been reading on SC/SA etc, but RA and D2 are both reputed to keep very large (in the case of RA, several per cap-capable pilot) reserves of dreads.  I'd not repeat the numbers per pilot that RA are alleged to have in reserve, because it sounds ridiculously high, but it can only be explained by, oh, I dunno, several years of massive and long-term, pre-nerf complex-exploiting :-o

I imagine we'll start getting some half-reliable info on what happened today.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on March 30, 2007, 03:57:32 AM
Linky (http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1407&tid=7)

Quote
band of brothers shipyard destroyed: contents unknown
reported by Gabriel Fontaine | 2007.03.30 07:24:18 |

The conflict that has gripped New Eden escalated to a previously unseen level today during a coalition assault on a Band of Brothers capital shipyard in F-TE1T. An unprecedented array of capital ships were present during the attack and the Coalition lost dozens in the successful effort to take down the structure. The aftermath proved to be a salvager's dream with a wasteland of wreckage left behind and both sides claiming victory.

When the explosions cleared, BoB had lost their tower and capital yard, along with anything that may have been inside. In return, the coalition lost at least forty capital ships, with estimates ranging as high as fifty-five. Regardless of the final figures, it marks the largest number of capital ships destroyed in a single engagement in the history of New Eden.
From all available evidence the pro-BoB forces suffered zero capital ship losses during the engagement.

At first The Coalition insisted that the capital shipyard contained a titan in production, which would have been lost in the destruction of the tower. If this is true, it is the second titan that the Coalition has destroyed in such a fashion. However, it would appear that now they are backing off these claims, showing the insidious nature of this conflict where claim and counterclaim are bandied about with reckless abandon by all parties, showing how imperative it is to win the PR battle as much as the actual one.

Nevvyn, a representative of Dusk and Dawn Alliance, acknowledges the substantial capital losses, but also made it very clear that "the target was the POS, anything else was strictly secondary." According to him, significant losses were expected and prepared for. He refused to comment on The Coalition's next move, and when asked for a statement, replied that the actions in F-TE1T spoke loud enough.

On the subject of today's plans, Nevvyn was more forthcoming, saying: "Very simply, both sides formed up well in advance, the target system of F-TE1T had been full of 150-200 hostile pod pilots since the early evening. Steps had been taken to prevent our entry into the system, although we had secured our entry well in advance."

A single warp disruption field had been placed at the POS which upset The Coalition's idea for a rapid exit, Nevvyn explained: "The plan itself was simple, jump in, engage the pos, destroy it, and then get out. Hit and Run tactics if you wish. The first part of the plan went exactly as intended, thanks to the skill, dedication and professionalism of our pod pilots. However, it seems that there were technical difficulties with the jump gates leading into F-TE1T and also with the jump portal on Emily (The D2 Titan), despite our best efforts, when it came to the "run" part, we could not get our support into system."

Concluding the outcome from The Coalition's point of view, Nevvyn was succinct: "The plan was executed well, the goal was achieved, the POS died. In the Capital Ship Assembly Array, we believe there was a Titan class ship building. As with everything, gaining intelligence about the opposition is not always an exact science, and it seems the opposition have taken appropriate steps to ensure that we cannot verify our claim."

On the other side of the conflict, Shrike, BoB Avatar pilot and close friend of SirMolle, remains confident saying: "The Coalition is now on its knees without a capital fleet. The train has hit a brick wall. They just rolled the dice, off the table in a wild gamble. I hope they think the gamble was worth it because now they don't have a backbone."

To give an idea of the scale of the engagement Shrike added: "We had about 2000 pilots involved tonight in various ops all over, all for the purpose of killing the capital fleet. And the capital fleet is dead."


Meanwhile, the war continues on. Seleene, executor of the Mercenary Coalition (MC), also granted IC an interview after the battle. The MC has openly acknowledged that it is under contract from the Band of Brothers and is assisting them in the war effort, and dozens of MC ships were present in the area of F-TE1T during the fight. According to Seleene, MC's current focus is to combine forces with BoB allies in order to achieve 'short-term goals'. She refused to go into details with regard to what these goals were.

Summing up the battle, Seleene added an interesting point of view to events, saying: "While it's true The Coalition succeeded in their goal tonight, no group can sustain those sort of losses over and over again simply to eliminate one target."

Sesfan Qu'lah of Goonfleet insisted: "(Our) morale is absolutely fine, most of us didn't even get to fight and we want another chance. Titans are so powerful that nobody can afford not to attack them while they're building."

The strike represents a huge gamble on the part of The Coalition, but with a very large potential payoff. As Sesfan indicated, his side could not ignore the opportunity although responding to claims the losses had derailed operations, Nevvyn stated: "The war is still very much growing, a very slow but relentless movement."

In the end, the deciding factor of the victor in the battle comes down to what was really building inside that tower's capital array. As of the writing of this article, there has been no definitive confirmation by any party of what, if anything, was inside. The capsuleer community is forced to wait for BoB to divulge that knowledge, and if sources prove accurate, the much-anticipated answer will be coming within the next few days from BoB's leadership.

Whether or not this battle will prove to be a turning point, remains to be seen, it is, however, destined to go down as one of the most memorable in New Eden history.

Well it was fun while it lasted but it appears the Coalition don't have a backbone or a capital fleet anymore.  :roll:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on March 30, 2007, 05:42:31 AM
tbh I love how Molle speaks. He doesn't care if he comes out as an asshole or an arrogant prick.

And Mahrin please don't stop writting updates from your POV, they help put the big picture together. I for one enjoy them. But what do I know, I'm just a bob fanboi  :-o


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 30, 2007, 05:53:03 AM
And Mahrin please don't stop writting updates from your POV, they help put the big picture together.

I totally agree.  It's not just that I'm interested to see how someone Bob-aligned (Note that I didn't call Fix slaves, renters, bobalts or anything else there!) rationalises the same events: I also pick up a lot of stuff on big-ship stuff at the same time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 30, 2007, 06:33:41 AM
Well it was fun while it lasted but it appears the Coalition don't have a backbone or a capital fleet anymore.  :roll:
It's going to be funny watching the next news item about the war - "OK, ignore what we said last time - this time we destroyed all of their capital ships for sure!"


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on March 30, 2007, 08:40:48 AM
I don't know any more than what I've been reading on SC/SA etc, but RA and D2 are both reputed to keep very large (in the case of RA, several per cap-capable pilot) reserves of dreads.  I'd not repeat the numbers per pilot that RA are alleged to have in reserve, because it sounds ridiculously high, but it can only be explained by, oh, I dunno, several years of massive and long-term, pre-nerf complex-exploiting :-o

I imagine we'll start getting some half-reliable info on what happened today.
If they have a reserve of dreads, fine -- but now they've dipped rather heavily into it, which means they can't afford victories like that too often. If BoB lost a fetal Titan, same deal.

Dreads -- even if you got all the ISK in the world -- take time to cook, and need to cook in targetable structures -- and the longer the war goes on, the more expensive each replacement dread is going to be.

I suspect the best way to find out who really came out on top is to watch the events of the next few weeks.

My personal thought was: In terms of morale, it was a pretty big victory for the Coalition. Doesn't matter whether a Titan was cooking or not -- they'll believe it, and it'll boost morale and give them a sense of victory. That's pretty important. In terms of ISK or actual strategic positioning --  if a Titan was cooking, it was a wash in terms of ISK and probably a slight BoB victory in terms of positioning (IF they manage to take advantage of coalition's losses). If a Titan wasn't cooking, clear BoB win in terms of cash and positioning.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on March 30, 2007, 08:45:33 AM
Dreads -- even if you got all the ISK in the world -- take time to cook, and need to cook in targetable structures -- and the longer the war goes on, the more expensive each replacement dread is going to be.

I've not an industrialist - again I defer to comic shop guy - but I'm sure dreads can build in a low-sec factory slot.  Building more, if "you got all the ISK in the world"*, is safe.  And they insure, which matters a lot more when you're doing a suicide op like this, fitted with T1 stuff.

*cf D2 and complex-kings RA


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on March 30, 2007, 08:51:01 AM
I've not an industrialist - again I defer to comic shop guy - but I'm sure dreads can build in a low-sec factory slot.  Building more, if "you got all the ISK in the world"*, is safe.
Yup. As long as you have access to a low sec factory station and enough cash/raw materials, you can churn out dreads (& carriers) until the cows come home.
Quote
  And they insure, which matters a lot more when you're doing a suicide op like this, fitted with T1 stuff.
Yup. A fully-insured T1-fitted dread works out (very) roughly to about a 1billion isk loss...which is a lot of cash, but significantly less than a T2 or officer fitted dread (which tend to be uninsured as you don't plan to lose them) or a supercapital loss.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on March 30, 2007, 10:08:52 AM
In my corp (industrialists and PVPers), we had been asked (a few weeks ago) to build 10 dreads for a mid sized coalition alliance. Imagine that each of the coalitions mid sized alliances have deals like these, and then throw in what the biggest players are producing and it has to be a little disheartening to be a BoB. I saw a spreadsheet about the number of Goonies capital pilots (kind of a time table) and that was pretty ridiculous.

Bob somehow just has to keep this at a stalemate and keep blowing up ships. I think the longer it goes on the worse off they are, and all the pressure of being sieged for so long stops the game from being fun. But if the coalition truely wavers they are done.

STAY ZE COURSE NOOBS! :)





Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on March 30, 2007, 11:23:29 AM
Wish I'd invested in minerals right before this; I imagine the price of trit is going to go through the roof again.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on March 30, 2007, 11:57:42 AM
I was just thinking the cost of money should start going up fairly soon. Now might be the time to sell your gamecards.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on March 31, 2007, 09:13:26 AM
Mahrin saying that BoB deliberately kept numbers low is fist-bitingly funny, though.  These are the logged-off tian killers, after all: they don't play LV e-honor games.

He's telling truth. At the time coalition ships started to bridge into the F-T system the bulk of BoB support fleet was in the "blockade system" next door. They went there 20 minutes earlier to keep coalition support fleet of similar size from entering the shipyard system from what I hear/read in the battle summary thread. I figure with number of capital ships they had in the system BoB command saw it a sensible tactic, as that would mean their own dreads would be less lagged while shooting coalition capital ships, meaning more kills before shipyard death. I.e. nothing to do with e-honor, but simple calculation. It's not like support ships are of much use when most of them can be wiped out with single DD.

Some complain about supposed stealth population cap, but it's more sensible to chalk that up to lag combined with titan bridge mechanics -- titan bridge lasts for 1 minute or so, and the lag in F-T is reported to be anywhere between 10-30 minutes. Which could mean once the initial coalition force entered the system, things became too laggy to squeeze more people in -- the bridge to destination would no longer exist by the time destination node was ready to receive ships trying to jump. A very different situation from earlier attack on LV titan shipyard, where attackers used regular jump gate, something that never goes away even if it takes hour or more to get through.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on April 01, 2007, 03:08:00 AM
SirMolle admitted losing Leviatan class titan....

...then he posted fake screenies to prove it :evil:


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 01, 2007, 04:23:35 AM
SirMolle admitted losing Leviatan class titan....

...then he posted fake screenies to prove it :evil:

On April 1st, no less.

In another part of EVE (system P-2TTL in Pure Blind, northern area of the map) there was apparently large battle between D2 + allies and MC/YouWhat forces. Multiple motherships and a handful of capital ships were used together with lots of regular ships. Eventually D2 withdrew, having lost 5 capital ships and 60+ battleships. Losses on MC side were large number of automated fighter drones (quite expensive) and few battleships.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on April 02, 2007, 07:56:58 AM
Re the titan thing, I for one am happy to admit that I am no wiser, after several days, as to what happened to whom, nor how.  I would be unsurprised to find that there had been no titan in the PoS.  I would be only marginally less surprised to find that there had been.  Evil Thug, Molle, the Mittani and more have all said both that there was and that there was not, some on April 1st.  I await some masterstroke from GIA, or some extra DD from BoB, with no real clue as to which.

 :|


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 02, 2007, 08:06:34 AM
Molle posted today the POS was empty and the OTHER POS in the system just finished building a mothership.

Ugh.

What's Goonswawm doing these days? They seem to have dissapered off the galactic war map.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on April 02, 2007, 08:51:19 AM
Yes, but he would say that, wouldn't he?

And GS have probably been absent due to their directorate having been at the meet in Boston.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on April 02, 2007, 09:40:08 AM
Hippoking from Goonswarm confirmed that it was empty. He said that he knew from a Mittani post on the goons' forums. lol is all I can say atm :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on April 02, 2007, 11:23:12 AM
From what I've pieced together, it appears the Coalition has admitted:

1) They lost 50+ dreads to blow up a POS that was -- as it now turns out -- cooking a Mothership.
2) They blew up the wrong POS.

Um, net win for BoB there. I'm sure it's the Devs fault. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on April 02, 2007, 11:35:47 AM
Um, net win for BoB there. I'm sure it's the Devs fault. :)

Not the devs' fault, at least as far as SA forum opinion goes.  The very latest post in the relevant thread as I write is, for instance:

Quote from: Sinfjotli
As bad as it was though this whole thing is pretty damn hilarious.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 02, 2007, 12:09:05 PM
I kind of expected this.  BoB was acting the way I would have expected if the whole thing was a ruse, especially with the public TS meltdown by RKK leadership when the POS went down, which was *very* out of character.  When they held off on saying what was in the POS, refusing to say anything at all, I figured the highest probability was that another shoe was going to drop in a few days.  But speculating publicly about it would just have screwed it up, or increased the embarassment if I was wrong and there had been something in it.

Just goes to show, a spy you know about can be as much of an asset for you as for the enemy.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on April 02, 2007, 12:13:05 PM
Um, net win for BoB there. I'm sure it's the Devs fault. :)

Not the devs' fault, at least as far as SA forum opinion goes.  The very latest post in the relevant thread as I write is, for instance:
I should have posted that in green. You know, whole Band of Developers? BoB only wins cuz Devs cheat? It was kind of a little dig at that.


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 04, 2007, 07:57:24 AM
I'll betcha if BoB manages to win this war, nobody will ever bother fighting them again.  I mean they can win completely on the up-and-up through organizational brilliance, and thousands of sore losers are just going to say that nobody beats the developer's pet alliance.  And thanks to the company's utterly buttfucked and stupid response to actual developer interference, way too many people would end up believing it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 04, 2007, 10:13:38 AM
Both answers are right.

If BoB wins no one will fight them in organized conventional warfare again because of their strengths in PvP and logistics. This is as big as opposing force as you'll ever get with the south east + North all fighting BoB. If numbers and total sizes of alliance can't beat BoB, no one else ever will, beyond BoB imploding from within. And I'd say BoB will only implode *after* everyone else has givin up, and it will for a lack of targets and boredom.

'Corse, one of the many reasons BoB GOT to be so strong in the first place is developer influence. Even taken away (and T20 *rejoined* them at least once already before getting exposed *again*) from them now it gave them a boost other players did not, and never will now, get. The amount of power and wealth they get from being givin Delve comes from that. 


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on April 04, 2007, 11:07:04 AM
If BoB wins no one will fight them in organized conventional warfare again because of their strengths in PvP and logistics.

I think BoB will be forgotten, along with everything else about this game, a lot sooner than you imagine.  What's the difference between e-peen and "building reputation within a game"?  In my opinion, only those who are way too involved within EVE give a damn.

I think this war is happening so that the accumulated wealth (in the form of stockpiled minerals) gets taken out of the game, with CCP controlling both sides, driving them to keep at it until resources are depleted.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on April 04, 2007, 01:00:59 PM
BoB really can't win, or the 0.0 game is basically Toast. 0.0 is already pretty retarded as it is with barrier to entry and how xenophobic (is that the word I'm looking for?) it makes the people in 0.0 already. In the past two years, the only new blood in 0.0 is Goonfleet and if the requirement to gain a foothold in that area of game play is a pre-existing community of tens of thousands? /shrug

If BoB can beat off most of the 0.0 universe at once, then what chance do any of the individual alliances have against them? It's already been shown time and again BoB can dismantle single 0.0 alliances at will. Pretty much why the whole deal is going down to begin with, if not Ra+Goons+D2+Friends now, then who and when?


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 04, 2007, 07:32:01 PM
If BoB wins no one will fight them in organized conventional warfare again because of their strengths in PvP and logistics. This is as big as opposing force as you'll ever get with the south east + North all fighting BoB. If numbers and total sizes of alliance can't beat BoB, no one else ever will, beyond BoB imploding from within.

Theoretical numbers and total sizes mean very little if the forces in question are completely unorganized. Northern alliances have been left on their own to bleed themselves dry in outer BoB space for something like two months now, waiting for the promised second front that just keeps failing to materialize. At this rate by the time this second front actually happens (if ever) there will be no first front left.

When half of the "as big force as you'll ever get" doesn't even bother to show up, it's small wonder there's no results to speak of. It doesn't mean BoB cannot be beaten with these numbers or even with smaller ones perhaps. But it will take people who both know what they are doing and are willing to follow some sort of centralized command with the clue. Quite like BoB itself.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 04, 2007, 07:38:37 PM
The hell are you talking about? I know Goonfleet has been sending forces into Querious for the past two weeks (and not accomplishing dick), and KOS/TCF have been raiding Feythabolis the whole time, with, last I heard, two stations taken.

What did you think the second front was going to be - Delve?


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 04, 2007, 08:12:27 PM
The hell are you talking about? I know Goonfleet has been sending forces into Querious for the past two weeks (and not accomplishing dick), and KOS/TCF have been raiding Feythabolis the whole time, with, last I heard, two stations taken.

What did you think the second front was going to be - Delve?

I don't know where it was going to be. Given results so far it just doesn't seem to actually be anywhere seeing how BoB seem to have all time in the world to play whack-a-mole with people trying to do something in their space.

Btw iif what I read elsewhere is correct Goonfleet is already pulling out of Querious. confirm/deny?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 04, 2007, 10:36:07 PM
The hell are you talking about? I know Goonfleet has been sending forces into Querious for the past two weeks (and not accomplishing dick), and KOS/TCF have been raiding Feythabolis the whole time, with, last I heard, two stations taken.

What did you think the second front was going to be - Delve?

I don't know where it was going to be. Given results so far it just doesn't seem to actually be anywhere seeing how BoB seem to have all time in the world to play whack-a-mole with people trying to do something in their space.

Btw iif what I read elsewhere is correct Goonfleet is already pulling out of Querious. confirm/deny?

I will neither confirm nor deny, as that would concern current fleet movements.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 05, 2007, 01:02:54 AM
The hell are you talking about? I know Goonfleet has been sending forces into Querious for the past two weeks (and not accomplishing dick)
Well, they have been training our new generation of FC's, so that's *something*.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on April 05, 2007, 03:07:38 AM
I was never in the V phase of F13's existence, but I think I gather that some of you would be delighted to hear that Light Darkness lost a faction-fitted carrier last night during a GF curb-stomping of YouWhat's battleship fleet.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 05, 2007, 06:36:41 AM
I will neither confirm nor deny, as that would concern current fleet movements.

Ah, fair enough. People who aren't in Goonswarm afaik talked about it on IRC and in-game channels, so thought it's been made public to some extent, sorry.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on April 05, 2007, 09:26:42 AM
I was never in the V phase of F13's existence, but I think I gather that some of you would be delighted to hear that Light Darkness lost a faction-fitted carrier last night during a GF curb-stomping of YouWhat's battleship fleet.
This, maybe? (http://pewpew.info/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=22105) Good ole LD is in CoW now. :( I was... surprised to see him in a shared intel channel.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on April 05, 2007, 09:36:54 AM
Quote
Also from report of Goonfleet carrier pilot: "I added to the effect of our sudden warp in by dropping a dozen frigates from my ship bay" :)

Hahaha. That's a pretty good tactic.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 10, 2007, 05:30:56 PM
Well, this hasn't been updated in a while so I figured I'd throw a few words in: Last weekend saw -YW- finish reclaiming Cloud Ring and they're now encroaching on FLA and D2 space in the far northwest, supported by MC.  I think BoB took back one of the stations taken by GoonSwarm a month ago in the far southeast, and the invasion of Querious has pretty much fizzled out, there was a series of battles in 9CG in which the north lost 6 dreads and all the Razor POS were removed (again).  IRON and PURE have pretty much disappeared from the south to deal with threats closer to home (the MC/-YW- offensive for IRON, and some ex-ASCN backlash for PURE), which leaves Razor and Morus Mihi plus odds and ends all that's left of the enemy in Q (which are annoying, but not a territorial threat).  The southern coalition is conspicuously absent, unknown if they are staging for a renewed offensive in the far south or if they're going to redeploy along with the Goon expeditionary force in the north.

Generally, the tide seems to have shifted from the southwest to the northwest, with the coalition on the defensive.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 10, 2007, 08:40:17 PM
Well, from what I hear...

Gunboat Diplomacy, a BoB vassal, has quit and retreated to empire from somewhere. Not sure where. I think Fountain? YW/MC are pushing into Fade, which looks pretty bad for D2/IRON's continued commitment. In the south, Feythabolis is more or less a gigantic battleground with BoB renters getting endlessly griefed by coalition gangs while the Reds have taken control of most of the complexes as far out as Delve. A few stations have been taken in Feyth, but not a huge amount of progress. BoB sends a big fleet once-daily into the southeastern area, wins a smashing victory somewhere, then returns home while the griefing and general disorder continues unabated around them.

It's looking like D2 will pull back to try to defend against MC while the southern forces push into Feythabolis and begin displacing the renters there.

Edit: Thing is, nothing huge or exciting has happened on either side since the last major engagement. A progression of trends and a shifting of tactics on either side, mostly. Two opponents circling each other.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 10, 2007, 09:02:24 PM
Well, from what I hear...

Gunboat Diplomacy, a BoB vassal, has quit and retreated to empire from somewhere. Not sure where. I think Fountain?
Would have been Querious, but they're still there (FIX is currently helping them firm up control of H74 after a AAA incursion).  Warped Mining left their alliance, and it was never the largest or most militant (little capital strength).

Yeah, in general nothing conclusive is happening right now, the north is a shambles and the southeast is the Eastern Front, too much territory and not enough entrenched defenses left after the ASCN war for any conclusive actions.  All three alliances are fighting in non-critical turf with considerably less than their full strength, after the wet firecracker in F-T (well, mostly, D2 seems to be suffering battle fatigue and isn't really making much of a showing even in the north from what I've heard, except for one incident where they Doomsday Deviced their own fleet).  All the forces involved in that except BoB seem to be stepping back and figuring out what should come next.  Not that surprising, it was a *massive* effort for all parties.  Can't do that every week.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 11, 2007, 01:36:34 AM
It's looking like D2 will pull back to try to defend against MC while the southern forces push into Feythabolis and begin displacing the renters there.
Pretty obvious tactics, really - fight head to head against BoB's horrifically broken multiple Titan + fighterswarm fleets*, or cut off their remaining revenue stream and bleed them to death?

Complexes - either shut down due to a 'bug', or being contested.
T2 market (previously a good moneyspinner due to all of BoB's BPOs) - in freefall.

What's left to do? Harass the serf alliances until they go back to mining veld in Empire, taking their multiple billions in ISK of rent with them.

*No, not bitterness. Titans are stupidly overpowered right now, and as force multipliers they get even more broken the more you get. A nerf is pending** if CCP has any sense whatsoever, and I suspect that fighters will be next on that list.

**Probably after the first BoB fleet gets double-doomsday'd. This is bitterness - see the difference?. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on April 11, 2007, 03:23:48 AM
Nice spin Sim :-D

RA got your whole offensive where sun doesn't shine and are whoring every plex they can find, so let's call that war effort and pretend everything good.
You know, it might have made some sense, except that you don't burn spent iskies/hour of playing. To hurt BoB financially, you would have to do some damage.
Unfortutnately, with north being bloody mess, RA uninterested and your general lack of capital fleet, you are unable to inflict noticeable loses on BoB side.

Oh and stop whining about Titans. They are anti-blob device, so I suggest you stop exploiting game mechanics with cheap ass lag 'tactics' (newbie frigs spammage ftl) and get yourself a smart FC and fleet that can follow his orders.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on April 11, 2007, 03:55:57 AM
Joe, look at Mahrin's posts and then your own.  I disagree with his interpretation in some substantial areas, but he's calm, informative and I'm always keen to see his view on things, for the same reason that I sometimes read the Independent or the Guardian instead of the Telegraph.

Your posts, however, are just a mass of name-calling unsupported assertions.  Not to mention being bloody hard to make head or tale of.

And, re your one, semi-substantive point, CCP have clearly dropped the ball on Titans.  Yes, with officer fittings, rigs and the like they come out at horrendous cost (Evil Thug reckons about 120billion+).  But then you have a superb logistics platform that can sit inside PoS shields, pop one metre outside, remotely doomsday, head back in, and face no threat because even if you do happen to have a bunch of dreads sitting around with heavy nos's on them and ready to bump, the cap recharge rate is about a minute, they'e immune to ewar, etc....

An invincible (once built, I admit) ship with an I-win button is too much.  I actually agree that Goonfleet's ability to bring large numbers of new players to the table made combatting them too hard due to lag issues.  The mere fact that they have brought lots of new players to the game is not something to be punished, of course, but the lag issue had to be dealt with in the short term.  Otherwise, as Mahrin has mentioned Fix doing, there are ways to combat such tactics by adapting and copying the best features.

Whether it was designed with this in mind is arguable, but the DD is one way of dealing with the lag issue, and I think that when GF work out how to use many fleets in many places the bob renters in particular will be in a bad place.

But the platform should be vulnerable.  It should be a risky manuevre that lets you win a fleet battle in seconds by committing two or three titans to create untankable hellblasts.  Evil Thug shouldn't be happily swanning around battlefields in his titan looting wrecks, ffs.

You'll notice my examples are not Bob ones.  All titans are unbalanced.

Edit: spelink


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 11, 2007, 04:07:56 AM
They're not anti-blob devices, they're anti-everything devices.

I'm sorry, but an EWar immune, jump capable, incredibly tough, etc, etc. capital ship that can regen its own cap from zero to full in under twenty seconds* is broken to begin with. Adding the doomsday device, jump arrays, etc. on top of that moves it from 'broken' to 'horrifically broken and needs to be fixed ASAP'. Especially as they can cloak as well.

Currently the only potential way to kill a titan in fleet combat is a couple of hundred nos-battleships gimped with a DDD tank and a bunch of dreads - and then the side with the titan will just use their other titan to gate in an interceptor-with-fighter-escort blob to tear the nos-ships apart.

Kill the interceptors? With what - the support fleet which got wiped out by the DDD in the first place?

Titans will get nerfed. Fighters are probably going to get nerfed. Alliances with Titans should be trying to steer the changes via discussion instead of saying "LOL learn 2 play" and then acting surprised after CCP cripples them.

*Not exaggerating - a fully officer-fitted & rigged Avatar piloted by a top-end pilot with the right implants can go from empty to full cap in 15 seconds. That's quicker than the cycle time of a heavy energy destabiliser, for those folllowing along at home.


Title: Re: War
Post by: 5150 on April 11, 2007, 05:08:23 AM
I haven't logged my main in for a while (been having a blast on my alt with an empire war against some carebears :-) ) but I understand that MC is currently attacknig FLA space [Deklein] I've also heard rumours of the odd Bobbit with them as well but no mention of YW

While FLA were massively invovled in the cloud ring offensive (dont ask me what happened, I missed the whole thing) and while it makes tactical sence for MC to want to base out of FLA space (slap bang between IRON and D2) they did just manage to bring another group to the party who wasnt previously attending (or at least FLA leadership has never, to my knowledge, organised any offensive against BOB-space)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 05:28:47 AM
They're not anti-blob devices, they're anti-everything devices.

I'm sorry, but an EWar immune, jump capable, incredibly tough, etc, etc. capital ship that can regen its own cap from zero to full in under twenty seconds* is broken to begin with. Adding the doomsday device, jump arrays, etc. on top of that moves it from 'broken' to 'horrifically broken and needs to be fixed ASAP'. Especially as they can cloak as well.

Holy fuck.  I gotta get me one of those.

.
.
.
IRL.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 11, 2007, 07:01:49 AM
While FLA were massively invovled in the cloud ring offensive (dont ask me what happened, I missed the whole thing) and while it makes tactical sence for MC to want to base out of FLA space (slap bang between IRON and D2) they did just manage to bring another group to the party who wasnt previously attending (or at least FLA leadership has never, to my knowledge, organised any offensive against BOB-space)
Before the -YW- conversion, FLA was heavily represented in the normal fleet component of the forces sieging ED- and 9CG.  I'd say they were 70-80 ships of the 450 ship enemy fleets we were seeing back then.  Not sure if they had any capitals on scene.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nevermore on April 11, 2007, 07:32:38 AM
I haven't logged my main in for a while (been having a blast on my alt with an empire war against some carebears :-) )

If it's the empire war I'm thinking of, then the 'carebears' inflicted a lot more damage, in terms of ISK, than they received.  8-)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 11, 2007, 08:30:16 AM
Heh.

Quote
there are several MAJOR things that need to be fixed.

1.) REMOTE DD. Nobody, that I am aware of, has said this is necessary. Everybody, from BOB, to d2, seems to agree that it is overpowered and stupidly un-necessary. The ability to shoot from anywheres in the system? I mean Come-the-hell-on. It just makes zero, sense what-so-ever.

Solution: Remove it.

2.) Titan Capacitor. It is rediculus. I watched Tom McCash, cyno in, DD, and cyno-out and apparently, orange species did it to IRON a few days ago. titan's can jump in, BBQ and leave. NO RISK. none. whatsoever. it would take over a hundred nuets, instantly hitting to prevent a titan from being able to jump away after a cyno in. Why pack armor mods when you can cyno away? why pack ANYTHING, but cap mods? It stupid and it needs to be fixed.

Solution: titans capacitor recharge 16x multiplied current. meaning with best mods, and full cap fit it takes 4 minutes to recharge. IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?

3.) Dictor Fix. Dictors are supercapitals... why are they relevant? because dictors are the ONLY way to hold supercapitals currently. And their bubbles are so fucking bugged that they can't fucking do it. dictor bubbles must work on the same grid together. and they MUST prevent cyno outs. dictors are the key to making supercapitals NORMAL.

solution: dictor bubbles work irrelevant of other bubbles (deployed and dictor) on grid. dictor bubbles prevent cyno outs.

do those three things and all of a sudden you have a balanced set of supercapitals.
From the current SHC 'Nerf Titans' thread (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=4535&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150), posted by....a MC pilot. Even the people getting the most benefit from them at the moment thinks that they are stupidly overpowered and need to be nerfed.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 11, 2007, 10:31:51 AM
stuff

This isn't Eve-O. Let's keep it that way.

Anyhow. In my mind, the problem isn't really what happens when you have one Titan in play - a single DD has a fairly long cycle time, but most battleships/well-tanked BCs can take a single DD. Yes, it wipes out support. Hopefully you have more in-system and can get to it despite the crippling lag that fleet battles seem to cause. Double DDs are ridiculous. They can pretty much wipe out any BS fleet that isn't specifically tanked to handle double DDs, and that makes them extraordinarily vulnerable to anything else.

I don't even want to fathom triple DDs, which are more or less inevitable as time progresses.

Oh yeah, and let's not forget that, even without the DD, the jump-bridge they provide to bypass gatecamps is exceedingly valuable for getting a large support fleet into a warzone without it getting popped due to lag.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 11, 2007, 02:38:51 PM
Even the people getting the most benefit from them at the moment thinks that they are stupidly overpowered and need to be nerfed.

MC doesn't have a titan themselves, and they are currently on receiving end of D2 titan. So no, they aren't exactly these who get the most benefit.

On the other hand people who do own one and do get benefit (like Evil Thug in that very thread) are quite outspoken against the nerfs. Which isn't surprising really, just a bit different picture than what you are painting.  :-)

You also don't really see D2 people ask for titan nerf, while at it. With very few exceptions the division between opinions is clear -- these who have titans want them to stay the way they are, these who don't have them demand a nerf.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 11, 2007, 03:18:05 PM
With very few exceptions the division between opinions is clear -- these who have titans want them to stay the way they are, these who don't have them demand a nerf.

From my understanding of the situation Titan's (with a pilot at the helm) are virtually impossible to kill.  As time goes on the Titan numbers are going to increase and that will lead to a major nerf, it just will. 

I feel sorry for those that have invested so much energy in obtaining a Titan but with solar systems that currently can't support fleet battles above 450 ships, a single ship that can kill a fleet of 200 with virtually no risk to itself isn't going to be a popular item or even a positive factor for the game in the long term.

The war's going to drag on for a while which suits me fine.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 11, 2007, 03:42:20 PM
From my understanding of the situation Titan's (with a pilot at the helm) are virtually impossible to kill.  As time goes on the Titan numbers are going to increase and that will lead to a major nerf, it just will. 

Probably yes, though Evil Thug in that SHC thread makes interesting point -- current POS warfare is almost strictly capital ship game. Bringing battleships or something smaller is literally bringing knife to the gun fight with titans around, and that can be considered bad... but alternatively if CCP manages to succeed with their plan to give smaller gangs some meaningful goals in territory warfare, then it could as well lead to something different -- current POS warfare limited to capital ships just like it is at the moment, but at the same time smaller ships still get to play meaningful role, just operating on their own rather than cram few hundred of support + capitals into single system in order to have fight. That would indirectly diminish role of titans and their DD, because there wouldn't be large blobs of regular ships for them to nuke, and the capitals can shrug off the DD pretty well.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 12, 2007, 02:55:17 AM
POS warfare is the root cause of blobbing anyway - you have fleets of moderately expensive capital ships (dreads) which are very vulnerable when in siege mode.

Well-fitted medium+ POSes all-but-require dreads to bring down.

System sovereignty is determined by POS numbers.

So defenders place as many 'death star' POSes as they can, which require dreads to kill. If the attack brings X dreads, it will take Y minutes of those dreads being sitting ducks in siege mode to bring down a POS. Bring 2X dreads, and it takes Y/2. Bring 4X dreads, and it takes Y/4, etc. And, of course, you need an escort fleet to defend your dreads from the defender's counter-attack...and if the defender has a titan or titans, you'll need reserves either in system or in a nearby system.

If CCP were serious about being anti-blob, they'd drop POS shield/armour/etc strength by at least half.


Title: Re: War
Post by: 5150 on April 12, 2007, 04:17:07 AM
I haven't logged my main in for a while (been having a blast on my alt with an empire war against some carebears :-) )

If it's the empire war I'm thinking of, then the 'carebears' inflicted a lot more damage, in terms of ISK, than they received.  8-)

It probably isn't, we aren't a known merc corp (no we're not in Privateers) and the target was no one worth speaking of (in the 'grand scheme of things' sence anyway)

Over 33% of their members quit the corp towards the end of the war in addition to having had more ISK destroyed by us than we received so I'd say we did more damage. Plus we were getting paid to beat up on them :-)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nevermore on April 12, 2007, 08:49:49 AM
Definitely not the same one then.  I was thinking of Privateers deccing Ivy League.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on April 12, 2007, 10:24:13 AM
Do Privateers have a kill board? Now that would make for some interesting reading.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nevermore on April 12, 2007, 10:39:42 AM
Privateer Killboard (http://privateer.griefwatch.net/)

I don't know how accurate most killboards are.  I know E-Uni tends to be as accurate as possible (if something isn't posted, it's most likely because the pilot was very new and didn't know how).  The Privateer KB seems to be hit or miss.  Some corps and individuals are very good about posting all KMs but a couple of corps seem to never post their loss mails.  I'm sure that's not an uncommon problem with a lot of alliances.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 12, 2007, 03:15:18 PM
Do Privateers have a kill board? Now that would make for some interesting reading.

Privateers don't exist as single "real" entity so such board is rather meaningless. It's just a number of separate corporations which join and leave common "privateers" banner as they please, so they can get access to large amounts of empire space targets through declared alliance-level wars.

Because of this they don't also have some common kill posting policy, and it's up to each corporation and their members to post kills, losses or nothing at all. So you can expect such board be also very inaccurate...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on April 15, 2007, 11:54:38 PM
So anything happen this weekend, or has it been status quo?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 16, 2007, 12:14:26 AM
We (IAC) put a BoB transit medium POS into reinforced. I was with the force of 70 or so who went back to kill it...

...And we got there just as a BoB cap fleet that was nearly equal in size as our entire fleet arrived from pounding KOS POS's in C3. Our FC was quite good and AFIAK we only took 1 loss before escaping with our tails between our legs. Read some nice Haiku's in the chat channel.

There's not much you can DO vs 4 motherships, 40+ cap ships and a Titan 2 jumps away. They don't need a support fleet.


Miners with Attitude were kicked out of the BoB Pets because they couldn't pay the 6 billion a month BoB bill. IRON I think took the station but probably won't hold it. This is in southern Queroius, south of FIX so the logistics are probably too hard to hold it (it's next to IAC space, but 30(?)+ jumps from empire through us). The tactic of stationing cloaked raiders in MWAs Home systems apperntly was what did it, and there was little actual fighting.

I wounder who BoB wil let move in in MWA's place?

Outbreak has moved into Curse and is....taking up a lot of IAC's time (and ships).  However, it's not POS warfare, but I wonder how much BoB paid them (I know the standard denial is Outbreak only works for themselves, but nothing occurs in isolation).


The current situation appers to be stalemate, but BoB have the initative and the Coalition has lost it after LV's collapse. The BoB pets can't stop the Coalition, but the Coalition can't stop BoB if it decides to show up. If BoB can force D2+friends out of the war, they win because the'll be able to concentrate on one front, where as right now they have to go from one front to another too often to get a decisive victory. For example, BoB *could* have taken FAT for FiX, spies offlineing towers or not.  But after the inital attack BoB has had other fish to fry. Yesterday I didn't even see a FIX in the FAT POS's for severel hours.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on April 16, 2007, 12:33:15 AM
That smells :(


Have we really reached Capitals Only Online?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 16, 2007, 12:36:12 AM
That smells :(


Have we really reached Capitals Only Online?

Only when you're fighting BoB proper. But it's moving that way, yeah.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 16, 2007, 01:57:51 AM
More reports: RISE has had their complex stolen out from under them for four days in a row (and counting) and lost every battle about it, some quite impressively (up to midnight EVE time last night/this morning).

Hope their rent isn't due soon. :)

Edit: I suspect that D2 isn't as close to defeat as BoB's alliance keeps trying to portray them as, either - the further north they retreat, the longer MC's supply lines get stretched (and motherships, while powerful, are actually killable in combat unlike Titans), plus I'm not exactly convinced with YouWhat's ability to hold regions. I mean, the only reason they had space in the first place is that D2 gave it to them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 16, 2007, 12:54:32 PM
My info was wrong: Miners with Attitude got booted but is SEPARATE from Gunboat Diplomacy who lost their station to IRON in Querious. MWA was down in the south part of the map. And it looks like Gunboat got their station back.

I think RISE is going down next, if they can't get the complex back.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 16, 2007, 01:34:41 PM
Edit: I suspect that D2 isn't as close to defeat as BoB's alliance keeps trying to portray them as, either - the further north they retreat, the longer MC's supply lines get stretched

Doubt it's going to work like this, as MC+YW can well base off the D2 stations they take over while pushing north, which keeps supply lines short. EVE isn't Eastern Europe where you could burn your own infrastructure to the ground, retreat all way to Ural and just wait for enemy to bleed themselves on barren land as they try to get to you.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 16, 2007, 01:41:12 PM
And nobody in Eve has more experience in long-range logistics than MC.  If D2's best hope is that MC will outrun their supply lines before D2 runs out of room to backpedal, I think D2 has a serious problem.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on April 16, 2007, 04:05:44 PM
In the same token, MC is known for it's clear, decisive plans of action, not its occupation of conquered territory. I'm half certain that is one of the things MC doesn't take contracts for, being a meat shield.


The real question is, does D2 still show up with fleets? Cap fleets in particular. LV lost its major cap battle then didn't commit any cap resources to the defense of its space after that point. D2 has lost more cap ships at once and overall then any other alliance to date, yet as far as I can tell, they still seem to keep them coming out.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 17, 2007, 03:32:37 PM
News update : Shinra is disbanding - Chowdown and the management/capship pilots are joining RKK, the rank and file are...not.

Edit: More news - D2 has a Leviathan now, to pair up with their Erebus. I think the YW/MC offensive may have a few more issues in the future. (Wild speculation: D2 has at least one more titan cooking, as they've definitely got at least one more Titan-capable pilot.)

This is a Good Thing, because when CCP BoB starts being on the receiving end of multiple remote doomsdayings, nerfs will suddenly appear. :wink:


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 17, 2007, 04:53:41 PM
Everything I hear indicates that the political meltdown of the northern coalition I warned about is happening.  FLA has their back against the wall (may not have any stations left), Razor is dicking around in Querious, Morus Mihi is dicking around in Fountain, Iron can't seem to stick to the same strategy for more than a week running (and is losing turf up north as well), Trimuvirate (former ASCN and originally part of the coalition) is attacking Pure, Roadkill/Smash are fighting a separate war against RA, and D2 is fracturing along language lines (germans vs. english speakers) and seems to be just trying to delay long enough to carrier-jump their stuff out of the northwest (leaving Iron and FLA swinging in the breeze).  Meanwhile, there's a stampede of formerly uncommitted alliances cutting deals with BoB for pieces of the north.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on April 17, 2007, 08:15:42 PM
>>>
News update : Shinra is disbanding - Chowdown and the management/capship pilots are joining RKK, the rank and file are...not.
>>>


That isn't terribly surprising. Smells for the grunts, but grunts always eat it in the end.


Which part of D2 space is going away exactly? That chunk near fountain?


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 17, 2007, 08:49:37 PM
I believe they've lost two stations in outer Fade, one to MC and one to -YW-, and the other two are under a mostly uncontested siege, along with all of Cloud Ring (not sure if it was D2 or FLA that had taken sovereignty there).  That leaves two D2 stations at the edge of Deklein, and one (EC-?) in Pureblind at the entrance to Empire.  There's a couple of stationless alliances wedged in there as well (Next Level and Forces of Freedom, I believe).  Primary effect is that Iron, FLA, and D2 are now on the defensive on their own turf, which makes it hard for them to manage any kind of offensive.

--Dave

EDIT: Oh, and FLA has one station left, in Deklein, which is probably next up on the chopping block.

EDIT 2: BTW, I may be over-optimistic.  We had half of the enemy forces parked on our doorstep so long, *only* having 3-4 alliances still attacking us has me downright giddy.  But any way you slice it, the north is in trouble.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 17, 2007, 11:22:23 PM
Down south Rise appears to be next on the Southern Coalition's chopping block. KOS got C3 back last I heard, much to my surprise. I think BoB has decided D2 will be eaiser to kill.

Outbreak appers to be siding with BoB completely, and are probably having too much fun to leave Curse for the foresaleble future.

IAC is having some internal issues, which I think is being caused by Outbreak and having a fleet of  T2-ships-only enemy show up on our doorstep and killing IAC defence gangs with ease. The problem is Outbreak isn't going for POSs so there's no great need to defeat them like there is vs BoB et al, so there's little willingness to commit cap ships aginast them.


It is alleged FIX is having as many issues as IAC is, dunno the reason.



Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 18, 2007, 12:55:59 AM
I don't envy Rise right now, they're out on the edge of BoB space, surrounded by hostiles and with a *long* supply line. On the other hand, they aren't facing nearly the numbers we were, and BoB is in that theatre for now.

Outbreak has a lot of ex-FIX (although they'll fight us as readily as anyone, they don't pile on when we're already facing hostiles).  FIX split down three lines at the end of CODA, the ones who wanted a military dictatorship went to PURE, the ones who wanted no part of the politics of alliance maintenance and diplomacy went to Outbreak (which also picked up the remnants of an *earlier* FIX diaspora, we've had a lot of them).  When our admirals get fed up with leading a militia, they join either BoB or Outbreak (the Outbreak ones often come back).

FIX has been leaning into the wind so long on this war, we're a little overbalanced right now.  We had a democratic change of leadership a bit over a month ago, and the new administration just finished settling in.  We got so used to continuing to operate with craploads of hostiles in our space, we have divisions of opinion over whether it's even neccessary to meet the enemy directly when there's no territorial goal at stake, because our methods for operating without space control work almost *too* well, the lower numbers of hostiles we currently face are no more of a hindrance than the ordinary raiders we were dealing with 6 months ago.

Really, our biggest internal argument right now is over whether we should clean out the remnants of the invasion force, or just wait for them to get bored and go away.  The best case against clearing them out is that action attracts attention.  If FIX starts fielding larger fleets, it may draw more hostiles in, and we're still badly outnumbered.  There's also a camp that wants to go offensive, make the current attackers go away by launching a territorial attack on their home ground, in cooperation with one or more of the disposessed alliances still running around.

FIX is filled with individualists, always doing their own thing, and the alliance is perennially appearing to being on the verge of flying apart.  A political condition that in most alliances represents a pre-cursor to dissolution is our standard operating procedure.  We've gotten so used to the pattern of burning out our leadership we've incorporated it into our system, Chairmen serve for only 6 months, by the end of which they're overjoyed to be rid of the headaches.  Before we instituted that system, we had a recurring pattern of leadership getting more and more frustated until finally they left, usually taking a corp or two with them (ESA and PURE are both the result of exactly that).

We recuit and train some of the best PvP'ers and fleet commanders in Eve, then they get frustrated at the part-time PvP attitude of the general FIXian, and leave.  We greet week after week of raiding with apathy, then fight like rabid weasels when there's a serious threat, throwing away months worth of isk-earning in one grand orgy of destrction that leaves the enemy wondering what the hell happened.  What can I say, we're a study in contradictions, I like it here.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 18, 2007, 01:40:21 AM
All that speculation is assuming that MC is happy to be double-doomsday'd repeatedly, of course. Judging by historic precedents (c.f. MC's 'defense' of ISS) that's not such a certain thing. If they start losing all their non-tanked BS and fighters every time they launch an attack, declaring 'Mission Accomplished' and moving back down south to defend Feyth against an titan-less opponent would probably sound a little more appealing to a supposedly mercenary alliance.

Unless BoB kick Chowdown and friends up north to support MC, natch.


Title: Re: War
Post by: 5150 on April 18, 2007, 05:27:06 AM
Yep FLA is pretty screwed right now, had this been several months ago I'd have cared more about it but I havent played my main for a while now

Unfortunately as much as Mahrim is having a blast I dont see how the BOB side winning this can be a good thing for eves future (no one wants to play a game where winning is for all intents and purposes impossible, and playing as a 'pet' isnt palatable for alot either)


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 18, 2007, 10:21:24 AM
All that speculation is assuming that MC is happy to be double-doomsday'd repeatedly, of course. Judging by historic precedents (c.f. MC's 'defense' of ISS) that's not such a certain thing. If they start losing all their non-tanked BS and fighters every time they launch an attack, declaring 'Mission Accomplished' and moving back down south to defend Feyth against an titan-less opponent would probably sound a little more appealing to a supposedly mercenary alliance.

I was under impression MC operates mainly using capital ships nowadays, so double DD isn't much of issue to them as it doesn't really kill anything save maybe for some fighters.

That said, there's rumours on another forum that D2 has sold their Erebus, possibly to RA or other yet unnamed party. Either that or the corp which owns it is splitting from D2, it's difficult to tell at this point. D2 people posting there aren't denying it, and if it turns out true then the double DD thing isn't going to happen at least in the near future.

Oh, and "historic precedent" had nothinig to do with titans, but with much larger than their own capital fleet logged off in position to jump MC capitals stuck in siege and murder them all, IIRC. If anything it says MC has enough common sense to not put themselves into equivalent of F-T attack without payment matching the risk, for the reasons F-T highlighted so well.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 18, 2007, 11:32:46 AM
Fighters are expensive; and an unescorted, titanless capital ship fleet that's just had all of it's fighters DD'd is more accurately known as a 'target'.
But yeah, grapevine says RA or AAA got the Erebus - either of which should scare BoB a lot more than D2 having it. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: palmer_eldritch on April 18, 2007, 12:58:37 PM
I love this thread. Is there a good newspaper style site which has news about the war? I think this is one of the great things about Eve. Even though I rarely did more than potter around Empire when I played, just knowing that these huge conflicts were being fought by other people (not as huge as this one I think) added to the fun.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on April 18, 2007, 01:08:36 PM
http://www.eve-tribune.com/

Eve Tribune isn't awful. Their war coverage is spotty.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 18, 2007, 09:06:03 PM
For general war news there's 2 places I go:

Goonfleet at War's current thread (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2411615). Thread get restarted evert few weeks. From the Goonswarm side of the war mostly, but comments from some other players too.

Scrapheap Challenge's war thread (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=4657). Usually has the news of whats going on where.


In other news, the top two IAC corps are leaving in the next week, saying that after 2 years they're board of running the alliance. This is probably because they are tried of it, but also a lot of new corps have joined since the ISS war and have changed the...content of IAC.

I fear I will be looking for a new home soon :(. Anyone in Goonswarm want to mentor me?


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 18, 2007, 10:10:34 PM
IAC's losing the old-time corps doesn't surprise me, it's the FAT curse at work again.  Seems to happen to everyone who takes FAT, it's oh so very shiny (especially with Zydrine in the toilet) and looks so very close, but it's 20 jumps deep and so damned hard to hold.  Everyone over-extends themselves for it, and the only alliance who ever owned it and didn't break was the one that gave it to you.  Huzzah went *exactly* the same way, the "old guard" split off and made their own alliance around Huzzah's pre-FAT space in Providence.

Outbreak doesn't want your space, but they will eat you alive in standard fleet engagements.  They're backed by Marko's nearly bottomless wallet (he had the CovOps Cloak monopoly, and now has a comprehensive collection of T2 BPO's) and they live to fight.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 19, 2007, 09:52:54 AM
Scrapheap Challenge is saying that D2 is splitting in half, and half the corps are effectively disengaging from the war

Bad math follows:

IAC is losing 20-50% of the PvP pilots
+
D2 is splitting in half and the PvE's are leaving the front for NPC space where they won't be bothered.
------------------------------
= BoB wins, Eve Loses. 

Granted IAC isn't doing much right now, but this appears to be The Shape Of Things To Come. Perhaps BoB's tactic of not concentrating on one target and killing it is deliberate, designed to keep the game going over winning completely and killing everyone, including their own, fun. BoB can't *kill* Goonswarm/RA/AAA, but they may well kill enough of everyone eleses morale to be able to no longer worry about what GS+allies left do.


I hope I'm wrong.


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on April 19, 2007, 10:07:52 AM
I wonder how much of the current interest in the game is because of the war.  I would assume that (since we're 3 years after launch) newbies come to the game whenever they hear about it, but perhaps news that a big war is going on provides some incentive for them to try it out.  The biggest impact, I thought, of the war, was on the veterans who might be enticed to re-subscribe in order to participate in it.  So, if the war fizzles out, would interest in the game also die out with it?



Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 19, 2007, 10:20:26 AM
I fear I will be looking for a new home soon :(. Anyone in Goonswarm want to mentor me?

I fear I don't have the postcount on SA that they'll demand to allow me to sponsor you in. You might try some of the newer corps to join the Swarm, like ARSeD (the Ars Technica guys) or WANG (Penny-Arcade).

Edit: Anyway, yeah, things are going very poorly for the coalition on pretty much every front but Feythabolis. KOS booted BoB out of C3 finally and there's still a lot of pressure on RISE et al., trying to keep them from making rent. The situation is pretty grim for the cause of Not BoB.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 19, 2007, 10:42:43 AM
This eve COAD thread (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=508577) allegedly gives a list if alliances BoB hopes to deal with, and alliances BoB plans to destroy.

Quote
Allainces on BoBs wish list include
TCF
IAC
IRON

Alliances to be destroyed no matter what are
Goons
RA
D2
Pandemic Legion

TCF is with RA/GOON as RA and GOON are with each other.

IAC survived the McFIX invasions because of RA/GOON/AAA, and IAC would be committing suicide to fight against AAA (who own the 10/10 complexes in IAC space). Though Tyrax is now in charge of IAC so if BoB offered Tyrax 100 billion, Tyrax might do it. (Tyrax is the master of offlineing POS's as FIX can tell you).

IRON I don't know about.

As for *destorying* Goons etc...we all rembember BoB saying Goons were already dead...about 6 months ago. Lollerskates. BoB will never defeat RA or GOON, even if all other hope fades.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 19, 2007, 11:43:01 AM
IAC survived the McFIX invasions because of RA/GOON/AAA, and IAC would be committing suicide to fight against AAA (who own the 10/10 complexes in IAC space).

Gratitude doesn't exist in EVE especially when weighted against self-preservance, and I don't quite see why ability to whore complexes in one's prime time is some decisive military strength argument. IAC "commits suicide" just the same by declining BoB offer, and this kind of posting that makes it rather clear the "core coalition" that's TCF, RA and Goons sees them to large degree as outsider willing to sell them out for enough ISK isn't likely to make IAC choice any simpler. Or maybe it does, but not in way one would expect.

IRON on the other hand, I don't see it happening. They've been fighting BoB while allied with D2 under one name or another for their whole existence. Would rather expect to see some kind of merger between either half of broken D2 and them, to who knows what end.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 19, 2007, 12:02:04 PM
As for *destorying* Goons etc...we all rembember BoB saying Goons were already dead...about 6 months ago. Lollerskates. BoB will never defeat RA or GOON, even if all other hope fades.
Being the Rebel Alliance is  :mrgreen:-er than being the Empire, anyway. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 19, 2007, 12:31:29 PM
IAC survived the McFIX invasions because of RA/GOON/AAA, and IAC would be committing suicide to fight against AAA (who own the 10/10 complexes in IAC space). Though Tyrax is now in charge of IAC so if BoB offered Tyrax 100 billion, Tyrax might do it. (Tyrax is the master of offlineing POS's as FIX can tell you).
Still haven't figured out who paid for the Prohibition contracts, have you?

--Dave

EDIT: I should say Prohibition 1, although Prohibition 2 wasn't *just* ISS


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 19, 2007, 08:07:31 PM
Still haven't figured out who paid for the Prohibition contracts, have you?

Last I heard someone did it to annoy Tyrrax persoannly, but I don't know who. So from what you're saying...no I having figured it out. Do tell.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 20, 2007, 12:56:55 AM
I shouldn't be a tease, but I was never supposed to know myself, and the person who told me would be in a very awkward position if I shared.  Let's just say that you're hugging a viper to yourselves like it was a life preserver.  Somebody wanted to push you into bed with RedSwarm and AAA, and they got really devious, downright byzantine, to make it happen.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 20, 2007, 01:23:37 AM
Let me guess - his name begins with 'I' and ends with 'stvaan'. :)
RISE had a bad day yesterday, by the way.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on April 20, 2007, 04:27:49 AM
For all those people getting depressed about how the war on CCP is going, this is a laugh (http://eve-files.com/dl/100142): one bloke in a smartbombing mega pvping bob+pets.  The final score at the end is startling, whether you count kills or money.  He's quite the one-man wrecking crew.  Of course, molle(probably embarassed at the gaps in the killboards it reveals in one lengthy section) complained to his tame moderators who banned it from being linked on the forums.

Also, Rise can't have enjoyed losing this (http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/32082).


Title: Re: War
Post by: bhodi on April 20, 2007, 07:30:33 AM
Ouch. Those things are crazy!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 20, 2007, 07:41:36 AM
Somebody wanted to push you into bed with RedSwarm and AAA, and they got really devious, downright byzantine, to make it happen.

I've always thought IAC was the front man for Istavaan's plot to kill ISS, so if the conspiracy was to hire MC to attack Tyrrax and IAC to then force IAC to kill ISS where MC was staging out of...

if it's true, I hope Istavaan never really quit and is still pulling the strings somewhere. I know the GHSC has been a power behind IAC since it's entrance to 0.0 (at least since Tyraxx joined it and stopped fighting it directly) but IAC losing it's 2 most powerful corps may mean IAC is no longer needed for the GHSC's plan....

There's a movie waiting to be writtin here someday,


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 20, 2007, 10:27:43 AM
For all those people getting depressed about how the war on CCP is going... (stuff)

Can we cut the BoD shit, please? This is neither Eve-O nor SA. It's a pointlessly inflammatory pejorative, and I've already yelled at JoeTF for doing the same thing from the other perspective.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 20, 2007, 10:52:53 AM
Is that James315?  He's been doing that forever, he got one of my covops during the ASCN war up in the A2 pipe.  It's a gimmick, one that works well as a surprise but once you know to expect it whenever you see him in local it's pretty easy to avoid.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 20, 2007, 11:42:20 AM
Is that James315?  He's been doing that forever, he got one of my covops during the ASCN war up in the A2 pipe.  It's a gimmick, one that works well as a surprise but once you know to expect it whenever you see him in local it's pretty easy to avoid.

--Dave

Yeah it is. And the video makes BoD and T20 jokes later on. I'm sure that had nothing to do with it getting banned.  :roll:


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on April 20, 2007, 12:23:17 PM
Can we cut the BoD shit, please? This is neither Eve-O nor SA. It's a pointlessly inflammatory pejorative, and I've already yelled at JoeTF for doing the same thing from the other perspective.

This is a little EVE-O though:  every now and then someone bothers to explain what all the acronyms mean, but 2 posts after everybody goes right back to using them extensively, to the point where an outsider has absolutely no clue WTF anyone is talking about.  So, pretty much, this thread is by those involved in the war, FOR those involved in the war, and thus a little EVE-O'ish.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 20, 2007, 12:48:56 PM
Is that James315?  He's been doing that forever, he got one of my covops during the ASCN war up in the A2 pipe.  It's a gimmick, one that works well as a surprise but once you know to expect it whenever you see him in local it's pretty easy to avoid.

--Dave
Want a real laugh? Look up James315 on the BoB killboard.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 20, 2007, 01:31:15 PM
Can we cut the BoD shit, please? This is neither Eve-O nor SA. It's a pointlessly inflammatory pejorative, and I've already yelled at JoeTF for doing the same thing from the other perspective.

This is a little EVE-O though:  every now and then someone bothers to explain what all the acronyms mean, but 2 posts after everybody goes right back to using them extensively, to the point where an outsider has absolutely no clue WTF anyone is talking about.  So, pretty much, this thread is by those involved in the war, FOR those involved in the war, and thus a little EVE-O'ish.

I'm not talking about the acronyms. I mean, this forum is generally for Eve enthusiasts, you don't expect us to type out everything all the time. I suppose I could create a sticky thread where people can post acronyms and such for general explanation.

What I'm referring to is the tone of post, which is largely meant to inflame members of the opposing side and has no real value in discussing the war itself. I'm trying to avoid having the thread derail into an Eve-O "LOL BoB vs RAGOON" flamewar.

/Moderation Derail


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 20, 2007, 04:09:20 PM
Want a real laugh? Look up James315 on the BoB killboard.

I've counted 13 or so BoB kills in that video (rest was other alliances or newbie corp shuttles), BoB killboard lists 17 ship kills by the guy plus some pods.

Where's the funny part?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 21, 2007, 04:41:37 AM
Want a real laugh? Look up James315 on the BoB killboard.

I've counted 13 or so BoB kills in that video (rest was other alliances or newbie corp shuttles), BoB killboard lists 17 ship kills by the guy plus some pods.

Where's the funny part?
Try matching the names up. ;)


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 21, 2007, 10:04:08 AM
Try matching the names up. ;)

Ah I see. I tried but the video is pretty poor quality, I could tell the corp tickers in damage message boxes but names are pretty unredable to me. Sucky EVE font isn't helping either.

edit: in other news it sounds like D2 put up successful fight today in their area. According to report on SHC forums a battle against MC/YW resulted in D2 killing 5 carriers or so, with no capital ship losses on D2 side.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on April 21, 2007, 04:21:24 PM
I'm not talking about the acronyms. I mean, this forum is generally for Eve enthusiasts, you don't expect us to type out everything all the time. I suppose I could create a sticky thread where people can post acronyms and such for general explanation.

What I'm referring to is the tone of post, which is largely meant to inflame members of the opposing side and has no real value in discussing the war itself. I'm trying to avoid having the thread derail into an Eve-O "LOL BoB vs RAGOON" flamewar.

No it wasn't intended to inflame anyone.  Frankly, it just wasn't inflammatory at all.  If you were complaining about the term "war on CCP" then that's what a lot of people are pursuing.  Not all, but some.  The privateers have done the same thing in a funnier way.  Otherwise, I don't get why you'd thing so.  Sir Molle did complain, and did pull strings to get the clip banned and the poster warned.  Fair enough: if you know CCP staff as well as he does - God knows he's played with some of them often enough - you get some useful email addresses.  But I really don't see how mentioning that he got it banned - factissimo - is intended as inflammatory.  The video is funny.  the guy is hardly changing the face of Eve, but it's a laugh.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 21, 2007, 07:47:05 PM
Sir Molle did complain, and did pull strings to get the clip banned and the poster warned.

Actually did he? As in, was it quoted somewhere?

I ask because eve-search doesn't list any Sir Molle's posts made after very early April on EVE-O forums, and the original complaint as posted by the movie maker on SA forum just said "some BoB member complained to GM and my video got pulled" which immediately became fact. Now it's not just some BoB member but Sir Molle himself, so curious if there's some insight into forum mod mails, or it's simply conjecture.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 21, 2007, 09:12:44 PM
Wondering if there actually might be something to the "BoD" stuff, I went to Kugutsmen's site and checked out the evidence.  What I found was somewhat...underwhelming.  Yeah, unsurprisingly there were some CCP employees and ISD employees in BoB.  A few of those (from clear back in Beta) were known to the BoB leadership, or at least some of them.  One of them, T20, abused his position in ways not connected to BoB, was forced to retire from the game, and left his BPO's with his corp (not an unheard of thing when someone is leaving or taking a long hiatus).  There was *nothing* in all of that material that showed BoB leaders or members knowingly and willingly participated in any malfeasance.

I might add, the Kugutsmen poster base isn't what I would call the sharpest set of tools in the shed, even for tin-foil-hat conspiracy spinners they're pretty sloppy.  As near as I can tell, the chain of evidence against BoB runs like this:

1) Kugutsmen goes through tens of thousands of posts and PM's hacked from the BoB forum servers.

2) He strings together a mildly incriminating set of same with dozens of barely related and mostly irrelevant messages to create a huge thread of quoted material, which he summarizes, sloppily and in ways that draw conclusions not really warranted by the evidence (often pointing to the *lack* of evidence as proof that BoB was covering something up).

3) His readers take the summaries, add supposition, interpretation, and just plain wacked out nonsense, and draw unfounded conclusions.  Most of them apparently don't read anything *but* the summaries.

4) These conclusions are then taken to other boards, mostly of BoB enemies, and reported as fact, the Kugutsmen threads pointed to as proof.  The readers, being both predisposed to believe bad things about BoB *and* apparently too lazy to check the source material, accept them as such.  Then they start adding their own impossible to verify or debunk fantasies to the body of myth.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on April 21, 2007, 11:37:26 PM
I'm not talking about the acronyms. I mean, this forum is generally for Eve enthusiasts, you don't expect us to type out everything all the time. I suppose I could create a sticky thread where people can post acronyms and such for general explanation.

What I'm referring to is the tone of post, which is largely meant to inflame members of the opposing side and has no real value in discussing the war itself. I'm trying to avoid having the thread derail into an Eve-O "LOL BoB vs RAGOON" flamewar.

No it wasn't intended to inflame anyone.  Frankly, it just wasn't inflammatory at all.  If you were complaining about the term "war on CCP" then that's what a lot of people are pursuing.  Not all, but some.  The privateers have done the same thing in a funnier way.  Otherwise, I don't get why you'd thing so.  Sir Molle did complain, and did pull strings to get the clip banned and the poster warned.  Fair enough: if you know CCP staff as well as he does - God knows he's played with some of them often enough - you get some useful email addresses.  But I really don't see how mentioning that he got it banned - factissimo - is intended as inflammatory.  The video is funny.  the guy is hardly changing the face of Eve, but it's a laugh.

Heh. I read "war on CCP" as a coy way of referring to the BoB/everyone else war, particularly since recent posts noted that the war was turning in BoB's favor and you mentioned people getting depressed.

And it doesn't really take "pulling strings" to get that video banned - it has material in it that's been banned from Eve-O (T20 joke, as noted above). Granted, he probably complained, in part at least, because it does portray his alliance in a poor light. However, had anyone else petitioned it, I'm betting it would've been banned just the same. Also, what tmp posted.

From what I've made of the Kugu threads and conversations with CCP folks, there's a tiny kernel of truth to the accusations of malfeasance - T20 did leave BPOs with BoB after being forced to retire his BoB character. Whether the BPOs are legit or not, I don't know - I'm disposed to saying they're not, given some of Magnus' comments, but I don't actually know. Whether he rejoined under another name, I don't know. CCP did a pretty piss-poor PR job of handling it, as most of the senior staff was on vacation at the time it occurred (mid-06), but there were large segments of the population already disposed to disliking BoB - Kugu was just a spark in the power-room at the right time when he dredged it all up.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 22, 2007, 12:58:09 AM
Wondering if there actually might be something to the "BoD" stuff, I went to Kugutsmen's site and checked out the evidence.  What I found was somewhat...underwhelming.

He gave them BPO's that were illegal

BoB knew he was in CCP (and he's not some part time GM mind you)

He was in charge of their capl fleet, while BoB was abusing rules (such as sharing characters, and using passive targeters through shields)

The head of CCP events team was in BoB, BoB knew it, and he gave them warning and special events for BoB

There is no way to know how much...information...CCP gave BoB not released to other players, but the stench is thick of it.


Anyone one of these charges is a hanging offence. Any Jury of Eve Players would (and did) demand a hanging. If you go by CCP's words, they *would* have hung him if someone...senior...had known about it at the time. And if any of these things were to happen now, it *would* mean an instant hanging, that's what CCP's publicly said.


I wounder how many CCP Devs Privateers ganked in the last 3 months. Someone probably lost a Freighter to them or something.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on April 22, 2007, 01:17:29 AM
Heh. I read "war on CCP" as a coy way of referring to the BoB/everyone else war, particularly since recent posts noted that the war was turning in BoB's favor and you mentioned people getting depressed.

Nah, I just thought the war on CCP was a funny euphemism.  If it's misjudged, my bad.  And I thought the people getting depressed bit was better than making a post saying everything was great for the coalitions and that Bob was dead and just didn't know it yet...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 22, 2007, 02:34:15 AM
One of them, T20, abused his position in ways not connected to BoB...
What


Title: Re: War
Post by: tkinnun0 on April 22, 2007, 02:41:48 AM
Wondering if there actually might be something to the "BoD" stuff, I went to Kugutsmen's site and checked out the evidence.

Better late than never, huh?  :roll:


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 22, 2007, 04:30:58 AM
Whether the BPOs are legit or not, I don't know - I'm disposed to saying they're not, given some of Magnus' comments, but I don't actually know.

I can't absolutely swear at this point, but I think CCP confirmed in one of their dev blogs these BPOs were actually, like alleged, obtained through manipulation of game database. It could've been that "apology blog" posted by t20 now that I think of it. It was probably quoted in some detail in the other thread here, the one focused on the whole dev drama thing.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on April 22, 2007, 05:47:15 PM
Yea it was definitely in a Dev blog, that is why there was (is) so much ongoing drama about it. It went from the realm of tinfoil asshattery into actual fact.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Faust on April 22, 2007, 10:48:12 PM
Wondering if there actually might be something to the "BoD" stuff, I went to Kugutsmen's site and checked out the evidence.  What I found was somewhat...underwhelming. 
...
I might add, the Kugutsmen poster base isn't what I would call the sharpest set of tools in the shed, even for tin-foil-hat conspiracy spinners they're pretty sloppy.  As near as I can tell, the chain of evidence against BoB runs like this:
...

3) His readers take the summaries, add supposition, interpretation, and just plain wacked out nonsense, and draw unfounded conclusions.  Most of them apparently don't read anything *but* the summaries.

4) These conclusions are then taken to other boards... and reported as fact, the Kugutsmen threads pointed to as proof.  The readers, being both predisposed to believe bad things about BoB *and* apparently too lazy to check the source material, accept them as such.

--Dave

Thanks for the update.  As I am predisposed to believe good things about BoB *and* too lazy to check the source material; I haven't read anything but your summaries and I accept them as fact.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 23, 2007, 12:40:18 AM
I believe I've just been pwned. :-o

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on April 23, 2007, 01:59:16 AM
So in the last 3 days or so,

Goonfleet killed and looted a RISE freighter carrying 6 billion's worth of stuff. GS got about 1 billion in loot. RISE is probably going to have towers running out of fuel, as about 3bil was reported to be POS fuel.

D2 killed 4 YouWhat carriers and a MC Dread and Carrier. The YW carriers were using named T1 gear! The MC carrier dropped another billion or worth of stuff allegedly. MC Mothership jumped out when it was in some danger of getting killed. A clearcut victory for D2.

The D2 side of the spilt that left, the one who took the Titan, are apparently going to become low sec pirates. With a Titan.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on April 23, 2007, 06:16:46 AM
The D2 side of the spilt that left, the one who took the Titan, are apparently going to become low sec pirates. With a Titan.
And if that doesn't get Titans nerfed, nothing will.
Random, tangential question: Can cynos be opened inside deadspace?


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on April 23, 2007, 06:24:32 AM
And if that doesn't get Titans nerfed, nothing will.

Miz Cenuj(sp?) has been ganking people with mothership in low sec space for months now, there was numerous cries about that on the official forum. There's also at least one another group doing the same in 0.0 space, I think they're called Establishment.

It didn't get nerfed much cheaper motherships even though they are just as invincible in low sec, it won't get the titan nerfed either. Low sec pirates rarely get to fight enough ships at once to make DD anything but pointless money sink anyway.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on April 23, 2007, 12:54:34 PM
Maybe they intend to live out of the Titan, That is mostly what the Establishment does with there mothership is my understanding. Lets them take anything not liquid with them where ever they may go.

Which is what these ships SHOULD be about, not solo pwn-mobiles but mobile stations/POS's.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 01, 2007, 02:33:25 AM
Thought for the day: Warping into your own gate-bubble when there's a hostile titan already aligned on that gate with a DD ready to go = Bad Idea.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vedi on May 01, 2007, 05:42:07 AM
Thought for the day: Warping into your own gate-bubble when there's a hostile titan already aligned on that gate with a DD ready to go = Bad Idea.

Sounds like one them there expensive lessons.

What's up where now, by the way? We want our status reports!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 01, 2007, 01:02:46 PM
Thought for the day: Warping into your own gate-bubble when there's a hostile titan already aligned on that gate with a DD ready to go = Bad Idea.

Sounds like one them there expensive lessons.

What's up where now, by the way? We want our status reports!

That's pretty much all I've heard about. Lots of anecdotal crap that doesn't mean jack, no station captures or losses. Stalemate.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 01, 2007, 01:49:27 PM
Yeah, a whole bunch of nothing much.  Low-grade hostilities all over the place, some inconclusive back and forth in the northwest and southeast with lots of associated kills.  Other than the race between Evil Thug and Orange Species to see who can be the first to get so aggressive as to lose a Titan in combat, nothing worth talking about.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 02, 2007, 02:42:14 AM
Yup, both sides have titans and are almost certainly building more - which means neither side want to commit their fleets (titans make non-capital ships explode, capital ships without a non-capital ship escort are vulnerable, therefore nobody risks anything), and it'll only get worse as more titans get built.

Awesome game design. :roll:

Fixes required right now:
* Cap rechargers need stacking penalties (someone figured out that an apoc fit in the same way as an avatar regens cap from empty to full in 3 seconds...that's just crying out for someone to abuse it with some sort of insane tank fit. Preferable right outside the Jita undock).
* Remote DD removed or crippled
* Assigned fighters need to be nerfed a little.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 08, 2007, 02:39:16 AM
Yup, both sides have titans and are almost certainly building more - which means neither side want to commit their fleets (titans make non-capital ships explode, capital ships without a non-capital ship escort are vulnerable, therefore nobody risks anything), and it'll only get worse as more titans get built.

I would love to see a GoonSwarm titan fitted with T1/Civilian mods.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on May 08, 2007, 10:19:11 PM

Rumor I heard was BoB using titans to knock ships out of POSes. 'Titan Bowling'. Could have been a joke though.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on May 09, 2007, 12:12:37 AM
Pretty sure that's true.  I've seen vids of them doing it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 09, 2007, 12:20:01 AM

Rumor I heard was BoB using titans to knock ships out of POSes. 'Titan Bowling'. Could have been a joke though.

It's true. They've used motherships too. Opinions from the GMs seem to vary as to whether it's an exploit or not.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on May 09, 2007, 12:46:44 AM
Creative use of game mechanics?  :roll:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on May 09, 2007, 12:49:40 AM
Not that I'm terribly surprised that GM's are seemingly ineffective, but which part of using super caps massive size to circumvent POS shields could not be considered an exploit?


It seems like a text book example of an exploit.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 09, 2007, 01:57:32 AM
Oh, I don't know - CCP's stance is pretty clear:
When someone else does it to BoB, it's an exploit and people get warned.
When BoB does it to someone else, it's a creative use of game mechanics and people get told to suck it up.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 09, 2007, 11:02:49 AM
Oh, I don't know - CCP's stance is pretty clear:
When someone else does it to BoB, it's an exploit and people get warned.
When BoB does it to someone else, it's a creative use of game mechanics and people get told to suck it up.

Not quite. There were a handful of incidents in the C3 system, I believe, where some BoB mothership pilots got told to knock it off after doing it to a GF or KOS POS. The responses have varied between GMs, from what I've read, with the solution being to escalate the petition.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 09, 2007, 04:59:17 PM
Finally something to report:  Freelancers Alliance (FLA) has surrendered to MC and -YW- in the north, and Intrepid Crossing (IRC, an ASCN remnant) has surrendered to RISE in the south.  Neither is a major alliance, but it's the first ones knocked out of the fight completely since LV went down two months ago.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 09, 2007, 05:15:01 PM
Also Remedial is stepping down as leader of goonswarm, Mittani is taking over.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 10, 2007, 01:40:32 AM
Not really a huge change, as The Mittani and the Directorship Cabal have been running things behinds the scenes for a fair few months now anyway - something to do with Remedial deciding that actually completing his lawyer training was more important than internet spaceships. ;)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 11, 2007, 04:02:52 PM
BoB, a study in cognitive dissonance:
POS spam is bad! unless we're the ones doing it.
We only want a decent fight! which is why we brought two titans, half a dozen motherships and two dozen dreads & carriers
 :roflcopter:

Edit: Oh yeah, this is in 9-9.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 11, 2007, 11:46:43 PM
Mandatory IAC operation. Jumped 40 gates to sit in a goon station that allowed me to find out I need to start selling stuff in Goon stations.

Seeing as there appered to be no hope of combat, 1/3 of the fleet decided to die and get podded home. We killed 3 BoB ships! I didn't get to see the Titan.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 14, 2007, 06:10:23 AM
ETA on Titan-bowling being declared an exploit after all?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 14, 2007, 08:40:39 AM
Evil Thug killed a faction fitted carrier (he bumped it), RA killed it.

4(!) BoB Titans are doing the same sort of thing, I think they killed a carrier too.


So, not for awhile I'd say.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on May 14, 2007, 11:18:05 AM
wait, wait, wiat 4???
One Ragnarok, Two Avatars and???


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 14, 2007, 03:10:31 PM
The funnier thing is the BoB titan doomsdaying from inside his PoS shield.  Only to discover that the effect is now only to blow up the stuff inside the shield.

The 9-9 situation is that the stront seems to have been timed just right: all the POSes to come out so far - I am told - have been Eastern Bloc ones, and all have been saved.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 14, 2007, 04:52:42 PM
Well, it's certainly been an interesting day today.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 14, 2007, 04:53:57 PM
4(!) BoB Titans are doing the same sort of thing, I think they killed a carrier too.

Urge to log in... falling... falling... gone.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 14, 2007, 11:19:10 PM
Apperntly BoB will own the system in 2 days, unless the Collation can kill some BoB towers (all moons are full I think).



Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on May 15, 2007, 12:02:15 AM
ok, people, don't make me log in. I still have like 20 days on a skill. Where's 9-9 and what's it tactical and strategical siginficance?


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 15, 2007, 01:47:12 AM
Also some big fights up north, IRON is on the verge of being pushed out of their stations and it looks like they called in *all* the favors (D2/PURE/Razor/Morus Mihi).  So did MC, so this is looking like the ED-/9CG fights, but on IRON's turf this time.  I like that much better.  If IRON loses, they're out of a home and the remaining D2 sliver in the NW probably won't last much longer.

--Dave (and my damned carrier alt still lacks the jump skills to get there, dammit)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on May 15, 2007, 01:52:49 AM
The North's complete implosion is down right amusing. It's a lot like LV, people expected them to go down, but no one thought it would go *that* fast.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 15, 2007, 02:11:04 AM
Well, it's particularly sweet against IRON, they were the worst smacktards during the siege of ED-, and now that the shoe is on the other foot and kicking them in the ass, they're whining up a storm.  We didn't whine about their outnumbering us 4 to 1 and bringing 60+ capitals, we just held the line (in second and third-tier ships we could afford to lose in job lots).  Now the top-tier ships we were saving up are in their turf, and they're broke from 4 months of accomplishing dick against us.  Northern morale is definitely in the toilet.  If IRON falls, the remnants of the northern coalition may fall apart.  Not a done deal, they're fielding some decent fleets for this stand.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 15, 2007, 02:20:34 AM
Edit: About 9-9.

It has a refinery, it's on the main pipe to Feyth, and it (currently) has Goon sovereignty. (IOW it's a nice system, but doesn't hold anything vital...like a capital shipyard, for example).

Secondly, it's the place where BoB showed that their spiel of "We hate POS spamming"/"We just want a fair fight" was utter bollocks. If you want a fair fight, you don't bring four titans + dozens of other caps, camp all gates & the outpost 23/7 for four days, and then make sure, by POS-spamming, that all moons have a POS up in a 60+ moon system.

It was also the place the Goonswarm capital ship fleet got christened. 4 BoB capitals killed for no GS losses, and BoB ran away. :D

Anyway, worst case scenario - we just fall back to the next system and wait for BoB to try and poopsock their way through that one as well - if they repeat what they've done to 9-9, they're leaving MC/YW/etc. totally unsupported*, and their pets unguarded.

Of course, what's really funny is BoB (or their alts) are going on about 7:1 kill ratios in the battles last night - yes, true, but the 7 were frigates & ewar cruisers, and the 1 was things like officer-fitted HACs. You'd think with all the ex-LV in RKK they'd have moved on from 'LOL K:D' by now.

*Which is what happened last night - which is why the northern alliances got a 300+ ship fleet together and went around putting POSes into reinforced while MC hid in stations.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on May 15, 2007, 01:34:39 PM
Edit: About 9-9.

It has a refinery, it's on the main pipe to Feyth, and it (currently) has Goon sovereignty.
Bless you for using region names. *hint, hint for everyone*

Re: POS warfare. All the Rev 2.0 changes I have read about on Singularity have not addressed POS spam. I really hope the devs do something about that. A 60 moon system full of POS is ridiculous.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 15, 2007, 02:50:28 PM
I think we broke the server.  :oops:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 15, 2007, 02:53:21 PM
So I'm reading that the newly unveiled GF dreadswarm got the drop on a BoB cap fleet in 9-9, and that things are looking rather... interesting.  Anyone know which way that's going?  Simond?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 15, 2007, 02:55:41 PM
So I'm reading that the newly unveiled GF dreadswarm got the drop on a BoB cap fleet in 9-9, and that things are looking rather... interesting.  Anyone know which way that's going?  Simond?

Last I heard, node was down, no reinforcements are getting in, and it was 80 swarm/allies vs. 50 BoB capships, but I have no idea what the force mix is.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 15, 2007, 03:00:54 PM
Clarification: 80 Redswarm capships.
I think lag is winning at the moment, though.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 15, 2007, 03:02:56 PM
lol, if Bob are saved from mass siege-mode annihilation by yet another collapsed node then the CAOD finger-pointing will reach fever-pitch.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 15, 2007, 03:36:42 PM
lol, if Bob are saved from mass siege-mode annihilation by yet another collapsed node then the CAOD finger-pointing will reach fever-pitch.

Wait, you think there won't be drama and finger-pointing if BoB loses any capships due to lag/nodecrashes?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 15, 2007, 03:46:17 PM
Wait, you think there won't be drama and finger-pointing if BoB loses any capships due to lag/nodecrashes?

True, but at least I'd be enjoying it a lot more.

Edit: sod it, I have no idea wtf is going on.  Seems to have turned nasty, though.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on May 15, 2007, 04:57:29 PM
Kills I've counted so far are 10 BOB dreads, 1 BOB carrier, 10 Goon dreads, 2 Goon carriers, 4 AAA dreads, 8 RED dreads, 1 RED carrier. 200 ships killed in the last hour in system with something like 696 killed in the last 24 hours.

Edit: Some of the dread count could be carriers as I don't know all the carrier names.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 15, 2007, 06:45:05 PM
Nidhoggur, Thanatos, Archon and...I forget.  Caldari, so probably some kind of animal.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on May 15, 2007, 07:30:04 PM
Colibri


Title: Re: War
Post by: Wolf on May 15, 2007, 11:59:47 PM
According to BoB's killboard - 30 capital kills and 10 capital loses. Maybe there's still updating to be done, bob can be slow on posting loses.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 16, 2007, 12:33:40 AM
23 dreads & 5 carriers dead against 14 dead bob dreads.  Tonight should be interesting.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 16, 2007, 12:54:53 AM
*Which is what happened last night - which is why the northern alliances got a 300+ ship fleet together and went around putting POSes into reinforced while MC hid in stations.
Word from the front tonight was that although outnumbered, McFIX and company repulsed all attacks on our POS, then put some of theirs into reinforced.  Carriers == Space Control, and MC and FIX between them can field as many as any 5 other alliances combined (and a lot more than the northerners, who went almost totally for the e-peens).  Not up there myself, I'm grinding isk to make up for the 7B I dropped on capitals and my damned carrier alt has a month to go on jump skills.  Assuming a stalemate, we should take control of the system in 2 days.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 16, 2007, 02:37:40 AM
That's assuming that the persistant rumour floating around about CCP rushing through the capital ship/fighter changes way ahead of the rest of Rev2 isn't true, of course. Which would be a mixed blessing all round, TBH: titan nerf = good, assigned fighter nerf = bad*, carriers being turned into glorifed logistic ships = ugly.

(*fighter-bombs are working fairly well for us at the moment - lol t1 frigateswarm + lots of fighters = fun).

Anyway, lesson learnt from last night: Having your backup and backup-backup support fleets in a neighbouring system to avoid lag & doomdays is a great idea right up to the point where a traffic advisory locks down the gate into the system you really want to be in.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 16, 2007, 01:21:33 PM
Edit: stuff.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 16, 2007, 04:51:42 PM
Oh, the word through the Allied grapevine about the 9-9 battles: "Send more RedSwarm dreadnoughts.  The last ones were delicious."

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 16, 2007, 09:34:58 PM
I was unable to login during the fight. There was nothing left to do but loot when I got in. It felt like I was looting in a L2 mission. One goon had a civilian cargo expander fitted.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 17, 2007, 01:08:44 AM
I was unable to login during the fight. There was nothing left to do but loot when I got in. It felt like I was looting in a L2 mission. One goon had a civilian cargo expander fitted.

Yes, but that kinda narrows the gap when it comes to counting up the losses: losing a dread with crappy T1 fittings is a different proposition from losing one with officer fittings.  Not that I've ever flown one: I'm just going by the wild pricing that BoB folks were doing after the FT holocaust.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 17, 2007, 01:20:44 AM
Yes and no.  There are certain things you *have* to put on there that don't come cheap.  Capital Armor Repairers (Capital Anything), Drone Control Units, Extra Large guns, etc.  I understand some people with more money than sense like to put Centus X-Type Armor Repair modules on theirs (same DPS repair as a Capital for a fraction of the capacitor, at 800M+ a pop).  But you can't fit a Dread or Carrier anywhere near properly for less than 600M+, and once you're that far in you may as well go a couple of hundred million more with Faction/low grade Officer modules for the rest.

Still, the 4B isk e-peens some people fly around are stupid for a PvP ship, better to put the extra into a decently fitted spare.

--Dave

EDIT: On the other hand, there's a reason BoB kicks your ass while outnumbered 8 to 5.  Within limits, quality does trump quantity.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 17, 2007, 01:32:32 AM
14 BoB dreads died, it was a lot better than FT and I believe only the 2nd outing for the gooncapital swarm.  I have no clue how the war is going to go, they don't tell us anything, but as a goon grunt I'm really enjoying the game.

I just wish they could do something to improve the lag.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 17, 2007, 01:36:45 AM
EDIT: On the other hand, there's a reason BoB kicks your ass while outnumbered 8 to 5.  Within limits, quality does trump quantity.

Too right.  Fittings, boosters, experienced FCs, people who've been flying dreads since they came out, SPs and so on.

The concern for the Bob side would be that the goons are currently going through their Kasserine Pass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Kasserine_Pass) phase, of learning how to do this stuff, how to perform logistics mid-battle and so on.  I was genuinely surprised that their first couple of dread engagements ended up with a small tactical win and a moderate tactical loss (the latter a loss on the strategic level, of course, since 9-9 wasn't saved when the towers escaped).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 17, 2007, 03:42:16 AM
Comparing the cost of ship losses rather than just numbers is probably a truer reflection of that battle (as the RA POS was doomed anyway) but that way lies madness. :D

I mean - what do you use for the cost - the value of the minerals which the module or ship refines into? (BoB's killboard calc works like this, iirc). A 'generic' , pre-set cost? The current market value in Jita?

And yeah, how a dread is fitted can make a huge difference in survivability...at a huge price. For example, if a T1 best named/T2 fitted dread has 90% EM resist and an Officer-fitted (plus pilot implants, boosters, etc) dread has 95%...the Officer-fitted one is (relatively speaking) twice as tough.

(Maths: Beam laser does 100 base damage. Dread 1 resists 90%, taking 10 damage. Dread 2 resists 95%, takes 5 damage).

Of course, when your multi-billion isk uber-dread gets called primary and evapourates under 400 superheavy beams of coherant light, you've just lost twice as much money as Joe Bloggs in his T2 dread. v :-) v

Also: Dave, got the name of the pilot with a civvy module fitted? ;-)


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 17, 2007, 04:20:41 AM
EDIT: On the other hand, there's a reason BoB kicks your ass while outnumbered 8 to 5.  Within limits, quality does trump quantity.

I can't understand why people are cheering for the "zerg". Do people really want a game where skill always loses to numbers?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on May 17, 2007, 04:55:22 AM
Goons are occasionally funny assholes.  BoB are just assholes.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 17, 2007, 05:50:22 AM
I can't understand why people are cheering for the "zerg". Do people really want a game where skill always loses to numbers?

BoB recruit the oldest players who will have more skill points and generally more money than anyone else.  What you are really asking is "Should the oldest and richest players be able to push the other players around?".  The answer to that for most pvp games would be "yes absolutely". 

In this case the game isn't sharded and the most powerful alliance pissed off several other large alliances by being caught red handed in a massive dev cheating scandel.  So if BoB lose the war it's going to be because they cheated not because they are outnumbered at times.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 17, 2007, 06:30:41 AM
...and if they win it'll "because the devs are helping them". ;)

Also, if they win it's pretty much game over for 0.0 - BoB (and their serfs) will have beaten the entire rest of the game, so the game will turn into a copy of the Chinese server (one alliance controls everything and can't be beaten, new players cannot catch up, game subscription rate falls though the floor).

That's assuming that BoB doesn't just get bored and quit as well, leaving a hollow shell of a game behind.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Drubear on May 17, 2007, 07:07:21 AM
That's assuming that BoB doesn't just get bored and quit as well, leaving a hollow shell of a game behind.

(fair reporting - I'm in Ars ex Discordia, GoonSwarm) A chum of mine at work who's in RISE (one of the BoB Quartet Corps) claims that all they are trying to do is prove to themselves that they can "win" the game (and exterminate [his word] Goons appears to be an emotional, albeit secondary, goal) and then will likely break up into 4 factions and end up fighting each other out in 0.0.

If you want to try on a tin hat, you might argue that this is CCP's Vision and why they're "helping" BoB: have 4 "empires" in 0.0 jockying for position with a little more verve than what goes on in Empire where ... wait for it ... 4 Empires are sitting soft and pretty in their own boundaries jockying in a totally bloodless and ineffective way (for now.)

Wonder if any of the BoB corps think of themselves as ex-slaves with another being luxurious hedonists...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 17, 2007, 07:50:33 AM
...and if they win it'll "because the devs are helping them". ;)

No doubt, but I don't think the chances of them winning long term are very high.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 17, 2007, 08:02:22 AM
I'd say that depends at least partially on the speed with which CCP puts the capital ship rebalancing live.

At the moment, BoB can kill (almost) all non-capital ships on grid once every 15 minutes, then gate-array replacements in for their side...with no risk whatsoever to their titans. That is a fairly major logistical advantage, which will only get even worse as more titans come into play.

When the remote DD is removed, that sort of thing will be all-but-gone because anyone who flies their titan into the sort of laggy battle that was happening earlier this week will lose it, sooner or later.

As for the "BoB just wants all of 0.0 for their playground, and they'll split up once it's done", well...RISE may believe it, BoB might even believe it, but I wouldn't put any money on it. BoB plays to win - when the battles are only make-believe within the context of the game people will get bored and quit.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 17, 2007, 08:18:59 AM
I personally see BoB shattering after about 3 major defeats, as you said earlier they will see the writing on the wall say they are bored and a sizeable number will leave for another game.  I don't think titans are as important as they were a week ago, now that goonswarm has so many dread pilots.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on May 17, 2007, 08:23:41 AM

I'll reference Shadowbane here as an example of what happens when someone wins a server.

And who actually claims to own Delve? I've been flying around in it for about a week now and it's a ghost town. Empty is an understatement.


Title: Re: War
Post by: TripleDES on May 17, 2007, 09:40:24 AM
...and if they win it'll "because the devs are helping them". ;)
CCP is still doing a great job at favorising BoB in whatever happens. Be it censoring/closing forum content, or GM decisions in the game. No surprise, considering most people responsible for the jobs are also players. So I'll continue to stay paranoid.

Quote
Also, if they win it's pretty much game over for 0.0 - BoB (and their serfs) will have beaten the entire rest of the game, so the game will turn into a copy of the Chinese server (one alliance controls everything and can't be beaten, new players cannot catch up, game subscription rate falls though the floor).
Didn't CCP break up m0o because of something similar?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on May 17, 2007, 09:51:58 AM
They sent a few battleships to spank a m0o camp as a sort of GM event once, and teleported them into deepest 0.0.  But I don't recall them being forcibly spilt up.  Some might have been banned for exploiting however (they exploited tons whatever the fanbois says).


Title: Re: War
Post by: TheDreamr on May 17, 2007, 11:07:50 AM
Aside from being generally infamous, weren't m0o the bunch who worked out that you could sit in one of the big high-sec system (Yulai?), get N friends boosting your shield / armor / whatever remotely and then perma-tank concord as you ganked everything you could see?

Pretty sure I read somewhere that them not stopping said gankage when asked to by CCP lead to a lot of perma-bans being handed out (and the aggro rules being changed).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 17, 2007, 11:49:53 AM
RA finally got their killmails, etc sorted, so:
http://killboard.red-alliance.info/?op=fleet&name=63

Redswarm forces. 43 dread + 24 carriers + 1 titan.
BOB forces 41 dread + 4 mother + 19 carriers + 2 titan


Title: Re: War
Post by: Raging Turtle on May 17, 2007, 12:09:27 PM
What?  Are those the current fleet numbers, or did 3 titans just get popped?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 17, 2007, 01:01:04 PM
Sorry, I wasn't clear - they are the fleet numbers that were involved in the recent battle in 9-9.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 17, 2007, 03:20:56 PM
...and if they win it'll "because the devs are helping them". ;)
CCP is still doing a great job at favorising BoB in whatever happens. Be it censoring/closing forum content, or GM decisions in the game. No surprise, considering most people responsible for the jobs are also players. So I'll continue to stay paranoid.

Quote
Also, if they win it's pretty much game over for 0.0 - BoB (and their serfs) will have beaten the entire rest of the game, so the game will turn into a copy of the Chinese server (one alliance controls everything and can't be beaten, new players cannot catch up, game subscription rate falls though the floor).
Didn't CCP break up m0o because of something similar?

It's funny because I was thinking the same thing about Goons/RA after having 6 of my posts removed.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 17, 2007, 03:59:59 PM
As has been said earlier it's not in CCP's interest for BoB to win the war.  Sure CCP got caught out covering up and lying to the community about one of their own senior devs playing as a senior bob member, the whole sharing dev secrets and cheating with extremely valuable items.  Sure one of BoB's closest allies LV had a GM piloting their titan and the senior members of that corp left LV and joined BoB.  Sure the CCP forums appear to me to show quite a bit of bias in allowing BoB posts and threads to get away with things that others might not. 

But no I really don't think the Dev's themselves are actively working in BoB's favour anymore, I really don't, if they were then there would be no possible way of defeating BoB.  I think they may favour them and I think the GM's (who aren't senior in the company) probably make decisions in their favour but that's natural as BoB contain the oldest players and I don't have a problem with that as long as they don't make their bias extremely obvious.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 17, 2007, 04:14:19 PM
EDIT: On the other hand, there's a reason BoB kicks your ass while outnumbered 8 to 5.  Within limits, quality does trump quantity.

I can't understand why people are cheering for the "zerg". Do people really want a game where skill always loses to numbers?

I can explain why I am, at least. For me, it's a war between a bloc that represents the idea that the Hardcore, Elite and Elder players are the ones who own 0.0, should own 0.0, and should exclusively control 0.0, with another bloc that believes anyone can contribute to 0.0 life, no matter how rich, poor, skilled, or noobish they are. BoB seems to believe that the high-end and elder-game toys are entirely for a small group of folks (themselves), despite it being well within the capabilities of a small handful of moderate players to run and enjoy some of that content - for example, a medium POS reactor setup.

It's not just BoB that has this idea, but many of the other 0.0 alliances share it. BoB is just the biggest, baddest motherfucker on the block and have locked down the most space so far under an Iron Curtain of Uberosity. BoB's attitude, statements and demands from tenants all point towards a contempt for anyone who doesn't own multiple characters, run capships nightly and spend 30+ hours a week in Eve.

In my view, as someone who's been playing for coming on two years now, if I have the skills and cash to diddle around in 0.0 and survive, I should be able to find somewhere to go and someone to take me, despite only being able to devote maybe an hour or two a week to the game, if that. Most corps and alliances see someone with that level of commitment as dead weight.

The Goons do not. Even "Mandatory" ops always come with the corollary attached: "If you have real life shit going on, go do that instead. This is just internet spaceships." Even if I can just run a T1 rifter tackler, as long as I can obey orders, I'm an asset.

If BoB wins, and the Goons are crushed and run out of the game, I fully believe that things will revert to how they were pre-Goonfleet: non-hardcore players will be shut out of 0.0.

That's why I fight with the Goons - so I, and semi-casual players like me, can have a place to play with the toys.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 17, 2007, 04:19:51 PM
The Goons, AAA, and RA as the heroes who want 0.0 "Open to everyone"?  You can say that with a straight face?  Okay....

--Dave (as long as we don't count the 10/10 complexes, true low-sec systems, or any assets you build that the New Masters decide they would rather have themselves)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 17, 2007, 04:21:42 PM
The Goons, AAA, and RA as the heroes who want 0.0 "Open to everyone"?  You can say that with a straight face?  Okay....

--Dave (as long as we don't count the 10/10 complexes, true low-sec systems, or any assets you build that the New Masters decide they would rather have themselves)

I never said RA. I never said AAA. As for the Goons, they'd take me as a semi-casual player. Yes, I used inside connections to get in. No one else would even touch someone who played 1-2 hours a week. That was the point.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 17, 2007, 05:05:20 PM
Once you join the Goons, nobody else will touch that character, *ever*.  The Goons have a well-earned reputation as thieves and scammers, a reputation they actually take pride in.  Wait a few months until the ConSov and defense upgrade patches hit, and you'll see everyone's 0.0 opening up a lot more.  It should be clear by now that BoB isn't going to lose this war, but I doubt they can really "win" it either.  This whole war has been about the major powers locking down space and taking more direct control of allies in advance of ConSov, after which it will get a *lot* harder to gain territory.  Just rebuilding the infrastructure will have built-in delays of weeks while high-level sovereignty is re-established.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 17, 2007, 05:27:05 PM
Once you join the Goons, nobody else will touch that character, *ever*.  The Goons have a well-earned reputation as thieves and scammers, a reputation they actually take pride in.  Wait a few months until the ConSov and defense upgrade patches hit, and you'll see everyone's 0.0 opening up a lot more.  It should be clear by now that BoB isn't going to lose this war, but I doubt they can really "win" it either.  This whole war has been about the major powers locking down space and taking more direct control of allies in advance of ConSov, after which it will get a *lot* harder to gain territory.  Just rebuilding the infrastructure will have built-in delays of weeks while high-level sovereignty is re-established.

--Dave

I honestly don't believe that BoB would open its space up more with ConSov; I expect they'd do something similar to what they're doing now, but on a larger scale - taking vassal corps/alliances and planting them in delineated segments of their controlled space in exchange for large fees. It's a rare alliance that gets by without paying BoB rent, FIX being the obvious exception.

As for the rest of the powers, I have no idea whether IRON/D2 will survive the MC/YW onslaught, nor how those entities would react to controlling the North. I expect they'd operate along similar lines to BoB and the general 0.0 precedent of an exclusive club for the hardcore. GF started out with the FTZ being an excellent deal (in my mind), but it's since been repriced and adjusted to be similar in value to most alliances' rental terms.

And I'll concede that BoB certainly doesn't appear poised to lose. The North seems fucked sideways, while the South is still mired in a stalemate. Over the past few weeks, BoB has made a little progress, as illustrated by 9-9, but haven't made the sort of rapid strides we saw with RedSwarm vs. LV or MC/YW vs. D2/IRON.

As for "thieves and scammers", I think we've tread that ground before, wherein what's viewed as acceptable in Eve is governed by what you think in-game relationships mean in a meta-game context. Let me put my view of it this way: Do you think I tried to steal your wallet when we were drinking at AGC? Now that I've joined GF, do you think I'll try it this year? :)

Edit: my grammar, she is the sux.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 17, 2007, 07:46:26 PM
Well -YW- and ESA (the alliance that is taking over the rest of the IRON/FLA space) are truly independant, as I understand it their deal has nothing to do with BoB control, BoB has realized they're not position to protect or develop in the north and south simulataneously.  It's unlikely that PURE, Razor, and Morus Mihi will get taken out before ConSov, and unless they totally cave in internally, D2 has an outside shot at keeping a region in the far north.  And, for that matter, they might be able to push back and put IRON and FLA back in.

FIX and Xelas will keep their independant status (with even more autonomy, after holding the line against the Northern invasion), and we're going to be looking for residents.  IAC seems to have a pretty...loose recruiting policy.  The new regions are still a tangle, who knows what will come out of there?  Expect a 6 month building boom after ConSov comes in, with action only in the "no man's land" regions between the powers, plus a few campaigns of subjugation by RA against former allies (I would have expected some by D2, but they'll be lucky if they aren't the ones being subjugated, even if they survive).  BoB will be hard-pressed to develop the turf they already had, they really aren't all that interested in a lot more (although they'll keep fighting the Goons, and trying to destabilize/bankrupt the lesser RA allies).  BoB's main interest in the north is ensuring there's no new super-power emerging up there.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 17, 2007, 11:51:40 PM
I never said RA. I never said AAA. As for the Goons, they'd take me as a semi-casual player. Yes, I used inside connections to get in. No one else would even touch someone who played 1-2 hours a week. That was the point.

So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 18, 2007, 12:12:45 AM
So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.

Are you in BoB?  Is it really like being in an elite band of space ninja's?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 18, 2007, 01:13:38 AM
So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.

You're funny.  I like it when you talk.  I mean that.

Edit: On a less CAOD note, here is the revised list of participants in 9-9:

Soco forces. 43 dread + 24 carriers + 1 titan.
BOB forces 41 dread + 4 mother + 19 carriers + 2 titan

That casts the results in a slightly different light, as opposed to 80-50.  Of course, the figures come from analysis of the RA killboards, so :tinfoil: is not unreasonable if you so desire.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 18, 2007, 04:15:33 AM
Well -YW- and ESA (the alliance that is taking over the rest of the IRON/FLA space) are truly independant, as I understand it their deal has nothing to do with BoB control, BoB has realized they're not position to protect or develop in the north and south simulataneously.  It's unlikely that PURE, Razor, and Morus Mihi will get taken out before ConSov, and unless they totally cave in internally, D2 has an outside shot at keeping a region in the far north.  And, for that matter, they might be able to push back and put IRON and FLA back in.
YW & ESA might not be BoB vassals per se, but they do hold their territory purely on BoB's graces. :)

What happens in the north depends on whether BoB drags MC back down south to fight Redswarm or not, IMO.

If BoB does, then the northern counterattack is going to flatten YW/ESA - it's only the MC capital fleet keeping the battle going up there, especially since MM took over. That might even buy BoB some time (contrary as it seems): If the north takes back its own territories, they're going to have to consolidate them before they try any further offensives.

If BoB doesn't, their own progress in the south is going to be slow, bloody, and costly - their vassals in Feyth aren't the most powerful combat alliances around and will be less help in combat than your average MC (or FIX, etc) types, so BoB is going to have to bear the brunt of the fight themselves. Losing a few ships in a glorious battle to smash your enemies once and for all is one thing - losing a few ships at a time in a meatgrinder of a campaign against an enemy which is showing no signs of giving up (and which your own alliance leadership has stated there will be no negotiating with) is something entirely different.

I'm expecting MC to be moved down south within a fortnight, personally.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on May 18, 2007, 08:26:09 AM
Once you join the Goons, nobody else will touch that character, *ever*.  The Goons have a well-earned reputation as thieves and scammers, a reputation they actually take pride in.  Wait a few months until the ConSov and defense upgrade patches hit, and you'll see everyone's 0.0 opening up a lot more.  It should be clear by now that BoB isn't going to lose this war, but I doubt they can really "win" it either.  This whole war has been about the major powers locking down space and taking more direct control of allies in advance of ConSov, after which it will get a *lot* harder to gain territory.  Just rebuilding the infrastructure will have built-in delays of weeks while high-level sovereignty is re-established.

--Dave

Come on dude, you're generalizing pretty heavy here. OH NOES, YOU WERE IN GOONIES! BANNZORED FOR LIFE

Plenty of 0.0 alliances aren't as elitest as you and your buddies and would accept an ex-goon, if the fucker had any amount of tact.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on May 18, 2007, 10:10:28 AM
So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.

Are you in BoB?  Is it really like being in an elite band of space ninja's?

Not only is he in bob, but he was given a 55 million SP character. Which then helped him "get a leg up" in bob.

Now he talks down to us.

I wonder what'll happen to Eve when the GM-funded alliance crushes the only opposition they'll see. My interest in Eve is already at it's lowest ever. We'll see if that 'couldn't care less' addage is really true. Every day I don't think I can care any less, but every day I'm proven wrong.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 18, 2007, 10:39:05 AM
In comedy news, IAC declared war on neihbours I didn't know we had, in providence I think. Tyraxx made it clear THIS time the'll be no station attacking k?

I have no idea why we did it, it appers to be it was to keep the repuation of IAC as "angry drunks" intact. I guess attacking BoB/Fix etc wasn't doing much, and Outbreak wins every battle so lets go pick on someone smaller.

I'd be interested in joining goonswarm one day, but the more I read the war thread on something awful, the harder it seems to be able join them :(.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 18, 2007, 12:06:00 PM
Come on dude, you're generalizing pretty heavy here. OH NOES, YOU WERE IN GOONIES! BANNZORED FOR LIFE

Plenty of 0.0 alliances aren't as elitest as you and your buddies and would accept an ex-goon, if the fucker had any amount of tact.
I'm sure there might be a corp or two out there that has not yet had ex-goonies join them and rob them blind, or had people steal from them and then join the Goons.  But not many.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 18, 2007, 02:03:47 PM
So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.

Are you in BoB?  Is it really like being in an elite band of space ninja's?

Not only is he in bob, but he was given a 55 million SP character. Which then helped him "get a leg up" in bob.

Now he talks down to us.

I wonder what'll happen to Eve when the GM-funded alliance crushes the only opposition they'll see. My interest in Eve is already at it's lowest ever. We'll see if that 'couldn't care less' addage is really true. Every day I don't think I can care any less, but every day I'm proven wrong.

What was I supposed to do? Go back to empire and play solo till I got bored and quit again? You were the one that left me behind to join the "10 dollar membership fee cool kids club" called Goonfleet. After joining Goonfleet all you did was brag about it and talk down to me. Did you see me crying about it on a forum?

I joined BoB as part of the Shinra merger. The 55mil SP character had nothing to do with it. You knew that already though.

Quit being so bitter about it. Being in goonfleet doesn't make you some sort of tragic hero.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on May 18, 2007, 03:53:12 PM
This is the week for MMO drama it seems!   :-D


The real question about the 9-9 fight is how many Dreads were GoonDreads and how many more are potentially on the way? SP for SP a GoonDread is probably well behind a RA/BoB/AAA/MC dread, but if they start showing up with a few dozen where ever they go...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 18, 2007, 10:14:11 PM
So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.

Are you in BoB?  Is it really like being in an elite band of space ninja's?

Not only is he in bob, but he was given a 55 million SP character. Which then helped him "get a leg up" in bob.

Now he talks down to us.

I wonder what'll happen to Eve when the GM-funded alliance crushes the only opposition they'll see. My interest in Eve is already at it's lowest ever. We'll see if that 'couldn't care less' addage is really true. Every day I don't think I can care any less, but every day I'm proven wrong.

What was I supposed to do? Go back to empire and play solo till I got bored and quit again? You were the one that left me behind to join the "10 dollar membership fee cool kids club" called Goonfleet. After joining Goonfleet all you did was brag about it and talk down to me. Did you see me crying about it on a forum?

I joined BoB as part of the Shinra merger. The 55mil SP character had nothing to do with it. You knew that already though.

Quit being so bitter about it. Being in goonfleet doesn't make you some sort of tragic hero.

You were speaking earlier about how skill should matter more than numbers, now it turns out you are playing a high sp character that someone gave you and were a member of LV which was one of the largest alliances in the game.

I think the only way you can redeem the situation is to email Richard Kyanka at somethingawful, I'd suggest starting the email with a polite "Dear Richard" and then really lay into him about the troubles his practices have caused your space guild.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 18, 2007, 10:30:03 PM
I'm sure there might be a corp or two out there that has not yet had ex-goonies join them and rob them blind, or had people steal from them and then join the Goons.  But not many.

--Dave

Stealing or offlining control towers is not against the rules as laid down by CCP, it's just another tactic to be used, CCP even protect the identity of spies in these situations.  You certainly aren't intending to say that your side in this war doesn't use the same tactics are you?

Edit to add

Dave, remember this?  August 2004

http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/08/an_intergalacti.html

Quote
Damn.... I've paid good money for Sci-Fi novels that weren't nearly as interesting. It would make a good short for Analog. Oh, waitaminute, you mean this isn't fiction?

A fine morality play, I think.

--Dave

Nightfreeze is a goon, did reading about a goon members scam play any part in you starting to play Eve?



Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 18, 2007, 10:42:30 PM
Hold the phone. I can moderate this better than that one post.

Edit: There, "SA sux" idiocy split off and denned. I took more than I wanted to, but I didn't want to isolate just LC's post. Quit being douchetards; what you think of another forum on the internet has no serious bearing on the war.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 18, 2007, 11:07:05 PM
You were speaking earlier about how skill should matter more than numbers, now it turns out you are playing a high sp character that someone gave you and were a member of LV which was one of the largest alliances in the game.

I joined LV just before Shinra merged with Reikoku. It wasn't very big at the time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 19, 2007, 02:17:05 AM
In other news, 9-9 and LXWN have both transferred Sovereignty, and McFIX destroyed a D2 capital yard POS.  Rumor is that it contained a Nyx, but no confirmation.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 19, 2007, 02:52:10 PM
In other news, 9-9 and LXWN have both transferred Sovereignty, and McFIX destroyed a D2 capital yard POS.  Rumor is that it contained a Nyx, but no confirmation.

--Dave

And Goonfleet is broke.

(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c390/d3ad3d/brokegf-1.jpg)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 19, 2007, 03:13:25 PM
The Goonfleet leadership is broke and most of them are out of town at Rem's wedding, there's a lot of discussion at the moment on what to do in the long term.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 19, 2007, 04:25:51 PM
It could be worse - we could be trying to POS-spam our way across Omist. We'd all be broke then.
Seriously, whoever designed that region is a bona fides sadist: "Most systems with 40-60+ moons? I like it! I can almost taste the sweet tears of desparing logistics pilots already"


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 19, 2007, 05:01:27 PM
Well I hoipe goonswarm start using those dreads they went broke buying, or the war will be over (though AAA and RA woulnd't be directly effected).


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 19, 2007, 06:43:55 PM
Well I hoipe goonswarm start using those dreads they went broke buying, or the war will be over (though AAA and RA woulnd't be directly effected).

Sure they would. Goonswarm is the meat shield protecting RA's  isk farming operation.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 19, 2007, 07:47:38 PM
If they had gotten a decent number of dreads into the field while the Northern Coalition was still pushing hard in the west, it might have made a difference.  Either much more extensive gains in the south, or throw a hammer-blow behind the northern wedge.  Now, they have to try and build Dreads faster than BoB can kill them, and not lose ground too fast.

If they're counting on MC being recalled from the north, or BoB not having the stamina for a long war of attrition (remember the ASCN war?), they've got a *big* problem.  BoB isn't going to let the pressure off the north, and they don't do "battle fatigue", they're a totally martial alliance that is more at risk from extended peace than constant warfare.

The goons have one big weakness that stems from their greatest strength: They don't take the game seriously, it's just internet spaceships.  Being on the defensive isn't fun.  Being hammered week after week by superior forces isn't fun.  The "Elitist" alliances that take it seriously and believe the relationships they have in the game are as real as any others, are more likely to stick with it when it gets tough.  Look at what FIX just went through, 4 solid months of constant attacks, always being outnumbered in our own space, *never* being able to just log in and do whatever we wanted.  It's not fair to ask if the Goons could survive that because the truth is FIX is an extreme example, everyone who couldn't take it long since left and we've built a culture of "better to be losers than quitters" that can tolerate pressure that would make most alliances implode.

Now is a bad time to be going broke as an alliance.  Look at Revelations 2, run the numbers on what it's going to take to build up the infrastructure for the next wave.  Roughly 10 constellations per region, 3 outposts per constellation, 6-10 POS per outpost (and upgraded POS that will be much more expensive than the current models).  Look at those vast swaths of RA and GS territory, do the math.  Even RA's wallet isn't deep enough.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on May 19, 2007, 09:20:29 PM
Quote
If they had gotten a decent number of dreads into the field while the Northern Coalition was still pushing hard in the west, it might have made a difference.


That is the one thing I am really curious about, is the lack of dreads in the field due to some strategic move(or being dead broke), or did the goons just not have the pilots yet. It takes quite a while to train up to fly a dread, so I get this amusing image of GoonPilots going "Ding DreadCaptainering done lawl!" then having their dread issued on the spot.

A hundred dreads in the hanger don't do you much good if you only have a dozen pilots for them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on May 19, 2007, 10:26:08 PM

That's the part I don't get about the large alliances. They don't seem to use their numbers very effectively. For example, the goons have 4000 people. If each of them killed lets say 20 1 mil battleships and donated that money it would be 80 billion. Are 3/4ths of their members just not active or what.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 19, 2007, 11:00:41 PM

That's the part I don't get about the large alliances. They don't seem to use their numbers very effectively. For example, the goons have 4000 people. If each of them killed lets say 20 1 mil battleships and donated that money it would be 80 billion. Are 3/4ths of their members just not active or what.

I don't think it's that. Most of the goons are just there for easy 0.0 access. They don't give a fuck about the alliance. All they do is mine bistot/arkonor all day and watch their wallet grow. There were still goons running around in haulers and ospreys as we took 9-9 away from them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 20, 2007, 04:47:18 AM
Of course, the haulers (fuel) and Ospreys (POSpreys) couldn't have been in system for any other reasons, right?  :roll:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 20, 2007, 05:56:27 AM
There were still goons running around in haulers and ospreys as we took 9-9 away from them.

Because as we all well know, if you're not piloting a freighter, carrier, dreadnought, mothership or titan, Eve is not the game for you anymore.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 20, 2007, 06:12:18 AM
Of course, the haulers (fuel) and Ospreys (POSpreys) couldn't have been in system for any other reasons, right?  :roll:

That's a valid point. I'm sure there were some there for that purpose. The wrecks I looted were filled with ore though.

I think you guys totally missed my point. A lot of goons are just dead weight.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 20, 2007, 06:27:48 AM
Of course, the haulers (fuel) and Ospreys (POSpreys) couldn't have been in system for any other reasons, right?  :roll:

That's a valid point. I'm sure there were some there for that purpose. The wrecks I looted were filled with ore though.

I think you guys totally missed my point. A lot of goons are just dead weight.

Quite right, anyone who is ever found mining or buying and hauling minerals in so that they can build ships and modules for themselves or their alliance in time of war and so on is dead weight.

I mean, thanks to the fact that GF is famously rolling in money they surely don't need to worry about logistics or income.

Please, if you are going to troll (and your history suggests that you are.. without pause or variation), at least put some effort in.

Edit: added helpful colour-hints


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on May 20, 2007, 09:28:59 AM
I think you guys totally missed my point. A lot of goons are just dead weight.

I don't think BoB has an exception to the dead weight rule. If it did they'd have 2000 dreads at the fights and not 40.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 20, 2007, 02:25:12 PM

Quite right, anyone who is ever found mining or buying and hauling minerals in so that they can build ships and modules for themselves or their alliance in time of war and so on is dead weight.

I mean, thanks to the fact that GF is famously rolling in money they surely don't need to worry about logistics or income.

Please, if you are going to troll (and your history suggests that you are.. without pause or variation), at least put some effort in.

Edit: added helpful colour-hints

So you think it's ok to mine while your alliance is busy fighting off the enemy in the same system? The reason you are losing is crystal clear now. I would probably be booted from my corp and killed for something like that.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on May 20, 2007, 02:28:05 PM
I feel very strongly about Goonfleet


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 20, 2007, 02:32:23 PM

Quite right, anyone who is ever found mining or buying and hauling minerals in so that they can build ships and modules for themselves or their alliance in time of war and so on is dead weight.

I mean, thanks to the fact that GF is famously rolling in money they surely don't need to worry about logistics or income.

Please, if you are going to troll (and your history suggests that you are.. without pause or variation), at least put some effort in.

Edit: added helpful colour-hints

So you think it's ok to mine while your alliance is busy fighting off the enemy in the same system? The reason you are losing is crystal clear now. I would probably be booted from my corp and killed for something like that.

Nope, that's still pretty weak (as well as factually wildly off-base).  Go on, have another shot.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 20, 2007, 02:35:19 PM

Quite right, anyone who is ever found mining or buying and hauling minerals in so that they can build ships and modules for themselves or their alliance in time of war and so on is dead weight.

I mean, thanks to the fact that GF is famously rolling in money they surely don't need to worry about logistics or income.

Please, if you are going to troll (and your history suggests that you are.. without pause or variation), at least put some effort in.

Edit: added helpful colour-hints

So you think it's ok to mine while your alliance is busy fighting off the enemy in the same system? The reason you are losing is crystal clear now. I would probably be booted from my corp and killed for something like that.

Nope, that's still pretty weak (as well as factually wildly off-base).  Go on, have another shot.

No, shut the fuck up, both of you. Go make another thread if you want to do the "mai alliance roolz, ur alliance droolz" dance and stop screwing up the one that's supposed to be for War news.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 20, 2007, 02:56:08 PM
The Goonfleet leadership is broke and most of them are out of town at Rem's wedding, there's a lot of discussion at the moment on what to do in the long term.

Just going to quote myself, it's the leadership of goonfleet that has cash flow problems, not the members.  I personally don't think it's that big of a deal, as now we know about it we can try to help.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Miasma on May 20, 2007, 03:59:13 PM
Is there an actual warbond mechanic in the game that lets you buy debt on the market and have the interest payments automatically taken out of the debtor's accounts or is this just a typical MMO loan between a few people?


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 20, 2007, 05:29:34 PM
Is there an actual warbond mechanic in the game that lets you buy debt on the market and have the interest payments automatically taken out of the debtor's accounts or is this just a typical MMO loan between a few people?

It's the typical mmo loan.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on May 21, 2007, 06:11:39 AM
I think you guys totally missed my point. A lot of goons are just dead weight.

I don't think BoB has an exception to the dead weight rule. If it did they'd have 2000 dreads at the fights and not 40.

Well, people have to sleep 8 hours a day for starters:P
Thing about dead weight isn't about being at frontline 24/7, but about don't giving a shit about your alliance. If those guys were mining to found Mittani's titan found then it's to be applaused, but if that was th case, GF would have 15 titans by now:P

BoB is in a lucky situation where people playstyles coincide with alliance goals 100% - everyone there plays to pvp and that's what alliance does.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Cougar on May 21, 2007, 06:20:40 AM
In other news, 9-9 and LXWN have both transferred Sovereignty, and McFIX destroyed a D2 capital yard POS.  Rumor is that it contained a Nyx, but no confirmation.

--Dave

The cap yard was offline when we got there. Seleene assured us there was nothing in it. Personally, I'm not sure of the mechanics of the cap yard with it being offline, so I'm not sure if the fact of it being offline defacto proves that there was nothing inside, or if it is possible to load up a cap yard with components with it offline and just flip the switch prior to starting the build.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 21, 2007, 06:38:14 AM
In other news, 9-9 and LXWN have both transferred Sovereignty, and McFIX destroyed a D2 capital yard POS.  Rumor is that it contained a Nyx, but no confirmation.

--Dave

The cap yard was offline when we got there. Seleene assured us there was nothing in it. Personally, I'm not sure of the mechanics of the cap yard with it being offline, so I'm not sure if the fact of it being offline defacto proves that there was nothing inside, or if it is possible to load up a cap yard with components with it offline and just flip the switch prior to starting the build.

Bah, so having the Eve devs in Bob isn't enough for them?  Now they have to co-opt devs from other companies?!?  Someone email Kugutsumen :-o


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 21, 2007, 06:43:34 AM
Almost all of the war bonds have been repaid now btw - the only ones still outstanding are people who are in newbie corps (read: potentially inactive), who've been asked to post & confirm if they want the cash back.

Next drama fix: IRC (Interstellar Crossing? Something like that) apparently had three freighters ganked out from under them by BoB while fleeing...allegedly after bribing BoB with  a bunch of large towers in exchange for free passage out of Omist.

Personally, I'm somewhat skeptical - making deals for safe passage then breaking them without provocation is a quick way to make all your enemies fight to the last.

Edit : Intrepid Crossing, not Interstellar Crossing.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Cougar on May 21, 2007, 07:06:53 AM
Bah, so having the Eve devs in Bob isn't enough for them?  Now they have to co-opt devs from other companies?!?  Someone email Kugutsumen :-o

I'm in the MC, not BoB.

Shouldn't your post have been green anyways?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on May 21, 2007, 07:12:27 AM
Bah, so having the Eve devs in Bob isn't enough for them?  Now they have to co-opt devs from other companies?!?  Someone email Kugutsumen :-o

I'm in the MC, not BoB.

Shouldn't your post have been green anyways?

Probably it should have been, you're right.  Let me practice.

Thanks for the correction.  Because MC are completely independent from BoB.

I knew which corp you meant.

Edit: actually, do we have a colour for trolling?  Maybe i should have put that in red.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 21, 2007, 09:50:08 AM
In comedy news, one of the IAC corps (The Nest, wich ex-IAC check Diplomat Kaylana Si) was leaving the alliance when  Kaylana said in local "friendly cyno". 5 minutes later Outbreak opened a cyno for BoB who DD'd a IAC fleet that was camping Outbreak.

Much disgust from the rank and file of IAC, and the Nest got completely kicked out an hour later (though IAC leader Tyraxx let them leave without shooting or hard feelings).


And we all found out outbreak can call in a BoB titan if they look like they might get blobbed. Looks like they won't need to build one for pirating, they can call in BoB when needed.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nevermore on May 21, 2007, 10:58:39 AM
Hasn't Outbreak been helping Ushra'Khan against CVA?  Could it have been the Evoke Titan's DD?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 21, 2007, 11:46:08 AM
AFIAK UK has never raided Catch (least I've never seen them), and I'm pretty sure Orange Species was the pilot. It was not the ex-D2 Titan.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 21, 2007, 03:24:39 PM
It was Orange Species, and he'll pretty much go anywhere he can get killmail spam.  Hope he's getting frequent flyer miles, he's been bouncing all over the map since he got that thing.

In other news: Janus Drake tells ISD "Losing the war? What war?" (http://myeve.eve-online.com/mb/news.asp?nid=1456)  The Iraqi Information Minister was not available for comment.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 22, 2007, 02:00:29 AM
Orange Species will be the first player to lose a titan in combat, once the changes go live. He's also providing more fuel to the fire as to why titans need to be fixed. There was a pretty good summary made elsewhere about fighting BoB specifically, but it'll apply to all fleet combat sooner or later until CCP patches; paraphrased, it's something like "If you can't fly a capital ship, fly a frigate, interceptor, or interdictor. Anything else is a waste"

Speaking of D2's interview, their answers make more sense when you consider that their thought process was "ISD = CCP = BoB, so we're not going to give them a straight answer". Can't say that I blame them personally, with the bias that ISD have shown historically.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 22, 2007, 02:21:36 AM
Next drama fix: IRC (Interstellar Crossing? Something like that) apparently had three freighters ganked out from under them by BoB while fleeing...allegedly after bribing BoB with  a bunch of large towers in exchange for free passage out of Omist.

Personally, I'm somewhat skeptical - making deals for safe passage then breaking them without provocation is a quick way to make all your enemies fight to the last.

Edit : Intrepid Crossing, not Interstellar Crossing.

Are you trying to say BoB were the deal breakers? You are incorrect in that assumption.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 22, 2007, 02:43:57 AM
Yeah, that's about what I thought - hence the 'skeptical' part.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 22, 2007, 04:44:50 AM
Yeah, that's about what I thought - hence the 'skeptical' part.

My understanding is that they were supposed to leave 0.0 completely. Instead of leaving they got caught moving in with the goons. So they paid a high price for abusing BoB's kindness pity.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on May 24, 2007, 07:52:45 AM
BoB and RISE destroyed a SERIOUS BUSINESS+RA fleet in 5XR last night.

A goon math wizard demonstrates his ability in local. (http://shp.shortweb.com/mathwiz.jpg)

The RA reinforcements came in after i took those screenshots.

Battle Highlights:
- 100+ Goon and RA ships destroyed.
- Only 11 losses for our side. (BoB and RISE combined)
- I crashed and lost my gang bonus
- Only one person locked me.
- No capital ships were involved.
- Goons were using Serious Business ships.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 24, 2007, 08:41:36 AM
You do know that a SERIOUS BUSINESS fitting essentially just means "Must have a MWD", right? :roll:

Besides, like I said a few posts up, I'm beginning to agree with Hydrosan (someone shoot me) - either you're flying a capship, or you're flying a frig/inty/'dictor, or you might as well not show up.

The future of EVE combat, folks, brought to you by CCP's favourite alliance.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on May 24, 2007, 01:39:46 PM
Well, the POS structure that prevents cynos will make it impossible to bring the cap ships in...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on May 24, 2007, 01:43:32 PM
Rumor has it that D2 has completely collapsed, is retreating to NPC/empire and may fully dissolve.

True?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on May 25, 2007, 11:34:14 AM
Besides, like I said a few posts up, I'm beginning to agree with Hydrosan (someone shoot me) - either you're flying a capship, or you're flying a frig/inty/'dictor, or you might as well not show up.

Fuck, I haven't played since last July or August and I could have told you that.  It's part of the reason I stopped playing, none of the ships I liked/ could afford to fly were worthwhile.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 01:05:59 PM
Well, there's a reason I went straight from BC's to Carriers/Dreads.  I have BS 5 on both characters, and I've never owned a BS (well, except as a commodity for resale).  At 75M fitted, a BC is disposable to me, at 200 a BS is not.  Although BS's are much cheaper to fit now that Invention has restored sanity to the T2 market.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on May 25, 2007, 02:54:39 PM
T2 sniper isn't that bad now that 1400's are like 5mil instead of 14mil.  I know I've got a pest fitted and ready to go along with the fittings for 2 others if I ever get some decent playing time.  Although a hurricane is a lot cheaper obviously.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 25, 2007, 02:59:36 PM
T2 sniper isn't that bad now that 1400's are like 5mil instead of 14mil.  I know I've got a pest fitted and ready to go along with the fittings for 2 others if I ever get some decent playing time.  Although a hurricane is a lot cheaper obviously.
A cyno frigate is even cheaper, and will wreck a sniper fleet.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on May 25, 2007, 03:32:59 PM
News from the IAC/FIX front.

With our outposts now 3 jumps apart, combat is much more commen now.

An IAC carrier was doing something (syupid?) at the catch border gate and FIX attacked it. Call went out and there was a distressingly lack of FC"s getting any X's up. So I volunteered (always thought those 3 levels of Fleet command would do something one day) and just told everyone GET TO THE GATE. I should have said "GET TO THE CHOPPER" but I didn't think of that till afterwards.

No focued fire (there was a 2nd gang that was doing that), in true disorgainzed colation style we attacked and won the field. I got 2 (!) kill mails in my wolf (which I lost at the tail end of the fight). I think they lost 12, we lost 8, and they lost more money. But it was all very confusing and quite fun, lasted about 20 minutes in total. We saved the CV and held the field.

A good fight. Now as long as don't start attacking POS's or calling in each other allies Titan's, fighting between FIX and IAC looks like it might bring some fun into the game.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 05:40:03 PM
I expect that long-term we're going to be skirmishing across the 49-U/4-07 line for forever.  It's unworkable for either of us to take and hold the territory on the other side of it.  And as long as nobody rolls out the dreads and POS, it can just be pew-pew.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 31, 2007, 04:14:47 AM
New Goon plan: Retreat to Scalding Pass, kill the FTZ, go back to blowing stuff up instead of trying to improve the game by introducing pubbies to 0.0. I almost feel sorry for whoever BoB decides to place in Detorid & Omist - especially Omist.

It all becomes moot when Rev 2 goes live anyway - territorial warfare is going to come to a screeching halt for all sides with the changes in that patch.

I'm training up for stealth bombers (and, eventually, recons) myself.
*cues up chiptune version of 'Das Boot' theme*


Title: Re: War
Post by: gimpyone on May 31, 2007, 01:47:37 PM
I wish I had the time for 0.0.  I can pretty much fly anything minmatar, so I'd be an asset to some corp but the time requirements for pvp are just too intensive.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 31, 2007, 02:37:23 PM
You can always join a carebear renter corp.  I have a sneaking suspicion there will be openings in Querious soon, at very reasonable rates (like, if all you want is mining rights, free).  And most 0.0 corps have industrial operations that don't participate much, if at all, in the PvP (but you've got to be hardcore in a different way to pull your weight in those).

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on May 31, 2007, 04:02:21 PM
Incidentally, the EVE-O forum gag just got lifted.
Cry havoc, etc.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on June 03, 2007, 07:39:50 AM
severel threads, this is one (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=530960) of them, BOB lost a Mothership to a RA logonski attack at a BoB owned but ran-by-RA complex. It was an alt of DB Preacher, one of the most...despised/hated BoB posters.

 Rumors circulate it died the same way the IAC Mothershiop died, seeing itself at a POS taking damage due to lag (the IAC MS did not get reinbursed. If CCP is stupid enough to reinburse the BoB MS for the same reason expect a dramabomb bigger than last week, so I can't imagine CCP would be that insane).

Goon/RA Morale up +1.


In unrelated news, Sir Molle asks if anyone wants to have goons as neighbours (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=530889).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 03, 2007, 12:34:39 PM
Remember when I said that Omist was a massive PITA to own due to the moon count?
Yeah.  :evil:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 04, 2007, 01:58:02 PM
The sound of inevitability (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=531702)
Quote
From today, Dusk and Dawn [D2] is no longer an operative entity...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on June 04, 2007, 02:15:41 PM
So whose left out of the 'real' alliances?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on June 04, 2007, 03:19:57 PM
So whose left out of the 'real' alliances?

BoB side:
 * BoB
 * MC
 * FIX
 * YouWhat
 * RISE
 * Xelas
 * lots of smaller alliances?

RAGOON:
 * RA
 * AAA
 * Goonswarm
 * TCF
 * IAC
 * KOS
 * Imperium something? I forget their exact name.

The North:
 * Morsus Mihi
 * RAZOR
 * ??? - I don't know the north so well.

I may be missing a few, but those are the major players that I can recall.


Title: Re: War
Post by: gimpyone on June 04, 2007, 04:01:02 PM
I'm torn cause I like FIX but I really really want BoB to lose.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on June 04, 2007, 05:05:03 PM
The North seems rightly boned now.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 04, 2007, 10:24:30 PM
Pure is also in the north.  That's pretty much the list, the non-territorial alliances that used to live up there have mostly wandered off by now, or cut their own deals.  Triumvirate has been pursuing a separate war against those three for the last month, how this will affect that, I don't know (Tri is not formally allied with BoB, MC and company have been careful to stay in a seperate theatre).  MC will do what the contractor (BoB) asks them to do, but most of the others that have been with them up until now would be uncomfortable in the same gangs with Tri (who started the war on the Coalition side attacking the south).  Possibly MC will add their weight behind Triumvirate, possibly they'll be recalled to the south to open a second axis of advance, possibly they'll do something else (very unlikely that BoB will simply have them join up with their own forces).

There's also the question of Fatal and Iron in the new regions (I believe Fatal has been sticking it out expecting to get BoB backing to return to the drone regions, and Iron has recently moved there).

One thing is for certain, for practical purposes the war in the north is over, even if Pure/Razor/Morus Mihi survive, they won't be looking to head south again for at least a year.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: 5150 on June 04, 2007, 10:29:26 PM
While I personally never liked D2 I like BOB even less and a 1 horse [dev] race cannot be a good thing for Eve

One wonders what will happen when the Devs err I mean BOB post on the forums that they won Eve?.........


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on June 04, 2007, 11:19:21 PM
 Once BoB are happy with their progress/achievements against Goons/RA i suspect they set a lot of their current allies neutral and start shooting them for target practice.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 05, 2007, 01:13:50 AM
I'm not sure they've ever set the guys in the north to blue, actually.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 05, 2007, 01:58:46 AM
What, you think RISE, youwhat, GONAD et al. would even try to fight back against BoB, MC + friends?

They'll whine about how unfair it all is, how they never saw it coming, complain about how nobody is helping them, and then they'll run back to NPC space or empire.

If BoB wants a real fight after the Redswarm conflict grinds into a messy stalemate and they then claim 'mission accomplished', they'll have to declare against one of their longer-standing pets or hire MC against themselves, or something equally stupid.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on June 05, 2007, 01:17:43 PM
If BoB beats RedSwarm, the only real fight left for BoB would be with itself. None of the pets would be able to stand up to BoB and the MC is just to small in numbers to fight BoB and win.


Outside of some mythical "Let us gather every non-BoB capital pilot in EVE and somehow form a super alliance in secret based out of empire" BoB really will "win" EVE if Russians+Goons+Friends are defeated.


They will simply be to far ahead of everyone else, could make the argument they already are to far ahead of everyone else, probably a topic for another thread.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 06, 2007, 09:15:49 AM
M. Pire looks like they're going to have an interesing future...they've just been given the lion's share of ex-D2 space, according to rumour.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on June 08, 2007, 04:42:10 PM
I believe the M. Pire rumor to be true, for at least some part of ex-D2 space. I don't think M. Pire is large enough to hold all of ex-D2 space.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Der Helm on June 10, 2007, 10:10:48 AM
Could someone enlighten me on which side of the conflict Knights of the Southerncross are standing ? For or against BoB ?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Drogo on June 10, 2007, 10:15:15 AM
I believe they are with the Southern Coalition fighting against BoB.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Der Helm on June 10, 2007, 12:47:40 PM
I believe they are with the Southern Coalition fighting against BoB.
Lucky me.

:-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on June 13, 2007, 10:02:45 PM
Soooo Xelas got evicted? http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=536521

Any comments, especially interested in the BoB side, I know Xelas isn't widely regarded as competent but curious if there is anything else I might have missed.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 14, 2007, 12:52:38 AM
This isn't a troll: with the meganerf to complexes that has been announced, was there just no point to Xelas any more: they'd been incompetent at defending space, ratting income was down, and now the one task they'd been given (run the complex, every day, pay up) was gone.

Like I said: this is not a troll.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 14, 2007, 04:03:49 AM
Xelas suck worse than a singularity have room for improvement in most respects, and never paid BoB rent apparently (as part of their tenancy agreement).

Speculation: Losing control of their complexes and mass-recruiting macro-miners was probably the final straw for BoB, who'd probably much rather have a halfway-competant entity in that space, especially one that would presumably pay rent.

...

And that's assuming that BoB just doesn't take it over for themselves, natch.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on June 14, 2007, 05:24:28 AM
Also, plexes aren't going to be nerfed - they will spawn randomly in all qualifying regions.
It's just 10/10 constellations that are getting the shaft.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 14, 2007, 11:43:44 AM
Also, plexes aren't going to be nerfed - they will spawn randomly in all qualifying regions.
It's just 10/10 constellations that are getting the shaft.

Don't be obtuse: removing the 10/10s for now is a huge, if impermanent nerf.  And making them require discovery by exploration, rather than be runnable like clockwork on schedule every day is another, longer-term nerf.  Nerf != "removal".


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 14, 2007, 12:13:44 PM
In case anyone missed it in the Rev 2 thread, patch goes live early next week.
The Xelas thing makes a little more sense now.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on June 15, 2007, 05:06:50 PM
Plexes stay the same they were, loot and difficulty wise. It's the russk...plex farming that's getting the shaft.:P
Plex !=plex farming. 

Simond - when you run out of beer in the fridge, is it also a BOB conspiracy?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 15, 2007, 05:10:23 PM
Aha! He admits it! BoB covops have been raiding my fridge!!!


Title: Re: War
Post by: stark on June 18, 2007, 03:16:35 PM
Razor is pretty much off the map now and MC has finished its contract for the North. I wonder what their next major op will be.

Here is Seleene's recap of the campain (http://amelia.podbase.com/warreport/index.html).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 19, 2007, 02:48:10 AM
And the last battle of the Age of Invulnerable Supercapitals ends in a stalemate, pretty much.

BoB had a plan to POS-spam their way to victory in XGH just prior to downtime (so that sovereignty would flip during the patch process/hotfix patches/inveitable downtime), and bought everyone and their dog to the fight. Goons invited along some of our friends (y hello thar Evil Thug, what a nice titan you have) and the next few hours shifted between POS standoffs, running battles, and tower spam.

(There were some interesting killmails on both side in that battle, as well - Goons flying newbie ships fitted as tacklers, and BoB using (shock! horror!) T1-fitted ships. :))

...meanwhile, Goon specops were heading down to 9-9 with cargo holds full of towers & fuel. When BoB started getting the alliance-mails showing Goon towers going up in 9-9, they began to counterspam back down there, which slowed their offensive in XGH.

End result: Goonswarm (just) held sovereignty in XGH, BoB held sovereignty in 9-9.

And now the rules change. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 19, 2007, 06:29:54 AM
(There were some interesting killmails on both side in that battle, as well - Goons flying newbie ships fitted as tacklers, and BoB using (shock! horror!) T1-fitted ships. :))

Those T1 ships are usually replacements stored on the titans or carriers for people who lose their ship. I had a goon incursus attacking me for about 3 minutes in one fight. I finally got tired of his 2.1 damage messages popping up and launched my drones.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 19, 2007, 07:06:02 AM
The tackling Ibises (Ibices?) were similar - XGH was completely out of Minmatar & either Caldari or Gallente frigates after a couple of hours of combat, so people started throwing scramblers/webbers/etc onto newbie ships.

Plus you'll be surprised how many people don't actually have 'newbie ship' on their overviews...the first time, anyway. ;)


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 19, 2007, 07:16:19 AM
The tackling Ibises (Ibices?) were similar - XGH was completely out of Minmatar & either Caldari or Gallente frigates after a couple of hours of combat, so people started throwing scramblers/webbers/etc onto newbie ships.

Plus you'll be surprised how many people don't actually have 'newbie ship' on their overviews...the first time, anyway. ;)

The incursus never scrambled me. He just orbited me with his guns firing. Maybe he was scrambling someone nearby, but it did seem strange.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 19, 2007, 07:32:52 AM
The tackling Ibises (Ibices?) were similar - XGH was completely out of Minmatar & either Caldari or Gallente frigates after a couple of hours of combat, so people started throwing scramblers/webbers/etc onto newbie ships.

Plus you'll be surprised how many people don't actually have 'newbie ship' on their overviews...the first time, anyway. ;)

The incursus never scrambled me. He just orbited me with his guns firing. Maybe he was scrambling someone nearby, but it did seem strange.

Did you check his history and join date?  That might be his primary ship :)

Alternatively, he was almost certainly just having fun and wondering if he could annoy/distract you enough to get you to react.  Things were going well and fun was being had.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 20, 2007, 07:05:48 AM
Net result of the XGH thing so far, so far as publicly announced (ie no opsec): GF has sovereignty; seven BoB POSs put into reinforced; four with badly-timed stront have come out and been destroyed.  Without their titans, which seem strangely reluctant to engage for some reason, Bob have been rather less than stellar in the hours before and after the patch.  Now that Bob's MC minions hired servants have finished up north, presumably they'll come down and help their masters avoid too much of this sort of thing, but let's hope that Bob enjoy setting those alarm clocks for the foreseeable future.  They didn't want those jobs, anyway?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 20, 2007, 08:07:07 AM
It is going to be interesting to see what MC do next - I wonder if their northern campaign was their "One free op per year" rent to BoB or not?

They've also said that they're holding on to some systems up north, which might even tie them up for a short while (depending on what they're planning to do with them long term).


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on June 21, 2007, 01:47:55 AM
didn't you guys lose 10 capitals to BoB's 2?
Also, I heard ET weren't that keen on using DD either:P


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 21, 2007, 02:38:22 AM
Well, Goons lost 2 to your 2, I think.  Our Russian comrades lost a bunch (8?) when they got rather carried away with how easy it seemed to be getting, but that's probably something I imaine that they'll make up for reaaal soon.

But you're confusing tactics with strategy (bob's killboards in particular kinda encourage that).  The strategic goal was exacting a heavy price for XGH, and the successful sieging of seven and destruction of four towers is a lot more success than most of us expected.  I didn't think for a second that we'd own XGH by the time RevII went in, because we everyone knew that Bob would make a big push for it.  The 9-9 counter in particular was genius. I don't expect it to last, of course, but there is at least the hope, with Rev 2, that the Russian winter has set in.

Re Evil Thug, who cares?  You're thinking tactically again, not strategically.  Him not using his one is a fair trade-off for you not using your several...   I imagine a fair few of Bob hated the era of the invulnerable titans almost as much as we did, anyway.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 21, 2007, 03:12:40 AM
Actually, the prevailing BoB theme re: Titans seems to be "Yeah, they were horrifically broken and really did need all the fixes. Fun while it lasted, though".
Well, on SHC at least. God only knows what line BoB are feeding the unkempt masses on EVE-O. :)

Edit: War update - BoB broke our fitting shop in the XGH station, so we broke their cloning vats in 9-9. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on June 21, 2007, 02:51:48 PM
First 200+ man fight, ever, where lag was only mentioned as being absent. The 'need for speed' changes seem to become noticeable in rev2.



Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on June 21, 2007, 11:50:37 PM
Shrike just lost his titan to Goonfleet/RA. Like, 3 minutes ago. I'll link the killmail when it's up.

Edit: "Omnipotence itself" (http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/46129).


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 22, 2007, 12:24:47 AM
Shrike just lost his titan to Goonfleet/RA. Like, 3 minutes ago. I'll link the killmail when it's up.

Edit: "Omnipotence itself" (http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/46129).

I was there. All I managed to do was stare at empty space. After 10 minutes nothing had loaded at all.


Here's a working killmail link: http://www.killboard.net/details/169202/


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on June 22, 2007, 01:20:18 AM
That didn't take them long at all, did it?  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 22, 2007, 01:34:33 AM
FOFOFOFO

It only took just over six minutes from capitals jumping in until Shrike popped.  Not that I was there: wrong timezone for me on a working day  :-(

It's funny: everyone thought that (nightshift?) Orange Species would be the first to lose his titan.  In any case, the first piloted titan kill of the game goes to GF/RA.

By the way, does anyone know why some of his fittings were so average?  In particular, why does a titan carry drones but bother to take Valkyrie I, warrior I, vespa I, hammerhead I etc?  I can appreciate that he launched everything good that he could on dictors before he went down, but why he even bother carrying tier 1s?

Edit:  Did any devs come into local to praise Goonswarm (or GS Federation were the French there?) for getting the kill, and tell them to go out and do it again, a la Admiral Chandrawandragandra?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on June 22, 2007, 01:38:56 AM
So he doesn't blow T2 drones on his own smart bomb(s).

That or he just didn't have T2 drone skills? I'm sure there are lots of things to train on a Titan that are more important then T2 drones :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 22, 2007, 02:55:04 AM
...and the rest of the odd modules are probably due to, up to a few days ago, the absolute optimum fitting for a titan was key modules (DDD, etc), a cloak, smartbombs, and then as many cap rechargers are you could possibly fit.

Having to change things to fit an actual tank might have meant "Grab whatever modules we could get hold of" rather than "top-end officer gear all the way"


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 22, 2007, 03:00:27 AM
That makes sense.  I rather suspect that fitting DD tanks might not be needed in the 46DP/77s/9-9 triangle for a few days while proper fittings are acquired :)

I like that the three draclira's modified cap rechargers are all amongst the stuff that survived: 10 bil each = one outpost.  I can't wait to see what that would be called.


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on June 22, 2007, 03:50:52 AM
Nice kill but a bit of a silly way to lose a titan.

this post by a goonie on caod seems to be a good summary of the kill:

The lag was fairly terrible, and I think everyone desynced at one point or another. There were only 190 in local throughout the whole fight, so I can't figure out why it was that bad.

On the other hand, I managed to bump the titan out of alignment 4 or 5 times, realize my client was desynced, log off, log back on, wait 6 minutes for login to complete and the grid to load, lock the titan again and continue bumping. That's not even close to a "lag kill" in this game.

Whoever was piloting Shrike made a mistake, plain and simple. He shouldn't have blown his DD on a 20 man gang on a gate, he shouldn't have cloaked once he realized his mistake, and he shouldn't even have been in local without overwhelming support available to bail him out. The era of cowboy titan antics is over, and good riddance.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 22, 2007, 04:07:24 AM
If anyone is interested, here is some edited, non-OPSEC TS recording of what happened:

http://jenovaswitnesses.org/titandead.mp3 (http://jenovaswitnesses.org/titandead.mp3)

I'll mirror that myself to save his bandwidth soon, and will change the link then.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 22, 2007, 06:02:54 AM
Whoever was piloting Shrike...
SirMolle, apparently.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 22, 2007, 06:43:58 AM
Whoever was piloting Shrike...
SirMolle, apparently.

I read that in a couple of places but can't allow myself to believe it, yet.  If it really is the case, then it's almost worth going to his BBQ in Denmark just to ask for a Shrikeburger, very well done.

They didn't want that titan, anyway.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 22, 2007, 07:30:50 AM
Further update: All Goon towers in JV1V which came out of reinforced today (the reason for the earlier battles) are now repaired, refuelled & back on-line.

Meanwhile, the station in 9-9 (BoB territory) has had most of its facilities disabled.

fofofo


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 25, 2007, 07:16:00 AM
Weekend update: Lots of skirmishes but no real changes on a strategic level down south, except BoB appear to be moving back into battleships instead of HACs...possibly because of neut arrays at POSes?

Meanwhile, BoB's new pets up north have had a bad weekend (http://razor-eve.org/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=254893).
(Key: Red highlight = ship loss).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 25, 2007, 07:40:46 AM
Yeah, while Bob's performance has been pretty puzzling.  Watching the killboards, the quality of first their fittings, then their ships has been plummeting.  Are they suspicious that we're going to DD their HAC gangs?  Are they biding their time and building resources before a joint attack with MC?

Curse Alliance did great in this morning's battles: I was stuck in the Bob primetime bit of proceedings (that was genuinely a laugh), so didn't see it happen, but it seems to have been immense.  As for that battle in Simond's link: oh dear.  I wonder if Bob's pets have the money to hire back Mercenary Coalition?  Because that is a turkey shoot.  21 survivors from a fleet of 166 ships, including 2 dreads and 51 battleships down?  That's give up and go home stuff.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on June 25, 2007, 09:39:59 AM
FATAL getting beat up again? I was part of kicking their asses outta Drone lands


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vinadil on June 25, 2007, 11:55:12 AM
This thread may just be enough to get my scared little butt into 0.0 territory.  There is this whole world to EVE that I have not even seen.

You know what we need... a Corp that gives guided tours of 0.0 land.  That way we could introduce people like myself.  With Voice tech you could even have a scenario like, "Ok now look to the left... you will see a Fleet of X Corp being decimated by Y Corp."  I am curious by nature, but also risk averse... so I have a hard time getting geared up to just fly around 0.0 looking around.


Title: Re: War
Post by: TheDreamr on June 25, 2007, 12:05:17 PM
TBH it's pretty unlikely in the current climate that there will ever be "tours" of 0.0 warzones short of actually joining an alliance involved in the war, as typically one side or the other (or possibly both) has a vested interest in shooting anyone who's not allied to them.

If you want an organised excursion to 0.0 and don't mind killing a few people into the bargain I'd heartily recommend checking out some of the PvP courses run by Agony Unleashed.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vinadil on June 25, 2007, 12:07:22 PM
Heh, yea I don't think the "Tour" thing would work.. I just think it would be funny to have Tourists in their mining barges flying around taking photos of the PvP animals fighting in the distance... like our very own Safari :).

I will look into Agony Unleashed... the idea of a "course" is interesting.

Edit - Well, I actually signed up for one... the whole concept looks interesting, and their attention to detail is nice.  If nothing else it will be a rather cheap learning experience.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on June 25, 2007, 01:18:15 PM
I suspect the war is going to be weird for several weeks as everyone starts futzing around (probably in disposable ships) trying to sort out how POS warfare has changed.

Everyone is going to be struggling to readjust their fleets for the new system. I expect to see some lopsided losses, or very tentative probes as everyone tries to sort out what's going to work and what isn't.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 26, 2007, 06:41:17 AM
Are they biding their time and building resources before a joint attack with MC?
My guess is that all spare cash was going towards a new mothership for DBP, and is now going towards a new titan for SirMolle and then a new mothership for DBP. So the membership doesn't have as much cash to fly around in Officer/T2-fitted HACs any more because those modules are being sold to raise ISK. BoB aren't quite as rich as they like to be portrayed, according to one of our spies which broke cover & rejoined the swarm. Oh, they've got lots of cash...but not the nigh-infinite cash the rumours would have you believe.

Also, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if MC get involved with the fight up north again - they've got a shiny new constellation of their own up there now, and I'm pretty sure they don't want MM/Razor knocking on their front door any time soon.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 26, 2007, 08:56:56 AM
Yeah, that spy homecoming thread was sweet.  I took it with a pinch of salt, but it all seems to have been borne out so far by events.

9-9 went very well again, today, btw.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on June 26, 2007, 12:01:24 PM
You guys getting desyncs since Rev 2.0 too?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on June 26, 2007, 12:03:38 PM
I hear BOB lost a titan....


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on June 26, 2007, 01:30:33 PM
I hear BOB lost a titan....

Welcome to last page. Or did you mean a second one?


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 26, 2007, 01:34:17 PM
I hear BOB lost a titan....

Didn't you hear? We didn't want that titan anyway...


Seriously though, they are just overpriced logistics ships now. Not really useful for anything other than opening a jump bridge.

Has anyone seen a titan pilot other than chowdown recently? I haven't heard of a single Evil Thug sighting. I'm sure the titan pilots are looking for a way to ditch their freighter taxis.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 26, 2007, 04:56:12 PM
I hear BOB lost a titan....
Didn't you hear? We didn't want that titan anyway...

Seriously though, they are just overpriced logistics ships now. Not really useful for anything other than opening a jump bridge.

If the spectacular lag caused by the jump-bridging done by Bob today - 100 ships jumped into a 250-ship camp and were able to utterly wipe the floor with the stationary, lagged-out defending force - is repeatable then I suspect we'll be seeing virtually nothing else from now on until CCP fix it (which, on past form, they will take months to do).  Waaaaay more powerful than a doomsday in the effect.  After a couple of weeks of abject failures in PoS warfare, Bob may have found a way out.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 26, 2007, 09:38:03 PM
I hear BOB lost a titan....
Didn't you hear? We didn't want that titan anyway...

Seriously though, they are just overpriced logistics ships now. Not really useful for anything other than opening a jump bridge.

If the spectacular lag caused by the jump-bridging done by Bob today - 100 ships jumped into a 250-ship camp and were able to utterly wipe the floor with the stationary, lagged-out defending force - is repeatable then I suspect we'll be seeing virtually nothing else from now on until CCP fix it (which, on past form, they will take months to do).  Waaaaay more powerful than a doomsday in the effect.  After a couple of weeks of abject failures in PoS warfare, Bob may have found a way out.

Our friends at CCP delivered a load of Lag Generator II to us yesterday. It had nothing to do with the zerg ridiculously large number of people you bring.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 27, 2007, 01:15:48 AM
I hear BOB lost a titan....
Didn't you hear? We didn't want that titan anyway...

Seriously though, they are just overpriced logistics ships now. Not really useful for anything other than opening a jump bridge.

If the spectacular lag caused by the jump-bridging done by Bob today - 100 ships jumped into a 250-ship camp and were able to utterly wipe the floor with the stationary, lagged-out defending force - is repeatable then I suspect we'll be seeing virtually nothing else from now on until CCP fix it (which, on past form, they will take months to do).  Waaaaay more powerful than a doomsday in the effect.  After a couple of weeks of abject failures in PoS warfare, Bob may have found a way out.

Our friends at CCP delivered a load of Lag Generator II to us yesterday. It had nothing to do with the zerg ridiculously large number of people you bring.

Yet again you maintain your position as the lowest signal-to-noise poster on F13.  I didn't say Bob did it on purpose, nor spout any tinfoil theories about collusion or sploits.  I merely said that the jumpbridge seemed to have much the same effect on lag (for those already in-system) as a bunch of dreads entering siege mode, just far, far worse.  The system only had about 350 total, including Bob, which is high but not extreme.  If it turns out that this always happens, then surely nobody doubts that Bob will use it, just as I'm sure that we would if the situation were reversed?  For the past couple of weeks, Bob has been havnig a terrible time of it down on the front lines between 9-9 and 77s: they'd have to be dumb or restrained not to take advantage of this if it is reproducible, and they're neither.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 27, 2007, 01:25:58 AM
Of course, LC will be the first to whine when an BoB attacking fleet gets wiped out when a handful of defenders are jump-bridged into a POS and all the attackers desync.

NB: It wasn't just lag last night. BoB cynoed in a fleet, and the vast majority of the TCF/RA/Goons/etc. ships desynced immediately...and this isn't the first time such a thing has happened with a titan jumping one fleet onto another fleet. This means that it is repeatable somehow, which in turn means once someone figures out how to do it deliberately, it will get done deliberately - by BoB, by whoever has the other D2 titan, by ev0ke, by Evil Thug...and by Goonfleet, eventually.

Edit:
You guys getting desyncs since Rev 2.0 too?
Heh. ;)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 27, 2007, 01:39:12 AM
There are definitely desynch issues around now, and they don't even require big numbers.  I was ratting last night, and when I shot the rats they would go down to about 5% structure then stay there, before jumping at once to full shields, full armour, full structure.  I then tried with the next, had the same thing happen, then the next.   Then, suddenly, they all popped at once when I somehow automagically resynched.  Of course, I was deep into armour, with no cap.  Of course, someone could easily have jumped into the system, scanned me down and ganked me over the same time, and I would have had no chance.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on June 27, 2007, 05:12:26 AM
Desyncs happen since Rev 2.0 pretty much every time and they happen to both parties. Imagine what first batch of BoB folks felt when they realized not only half of fleet stayed behind, but they desynced in system swaring with enemies!

However, you didn't lost because of desync, but thanks to dumb FC. Trying imply that BOB knew about issue beforehand and tried to use it is retarded and will get you answers like LCs just wrote.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 27, 2007, 05:39:13 AM
The sequence of events was something like this, apparently:
BoB jumped in two dozen or so ships.
TCF/Goons/etc. warped a large fleet onto the cyno and anchored a bubble.
So far, so laggy.
BoB jumped in another hundred or so ships. All ships already on grid desync (including the twenty-oddBoB ships from the earlier jump). New ships which have just jumped in were fine. (Laggy, but fine).
TCF/etc. fleet commanders think that it is just 'normal' lag and tell people to wait it out. By the time they figured out that almost everyone had desynced form the server, it was too late to do anything about it.
BoB has fun blowing up (effectively) unpiloted ships.

So yes, some of BoB did desync - but the larger fleet which jumped in second was fine (for EVe-O fleet combat lag values of 'fine'). CCP needs to nail this one down ASAP or every fleet combat involving jump bridges from now on is going to to be complete pot luck. Unless the basis of the latest "Need for Speed" improvements is supposed to be "Server half-disconnects people at random times whenever lag is bad" or something.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Kamen on June 27, 2007, 07:05:03 AM
If CCP were able to create an environment tomorrow that had insignificant lag until 1,000 players were fighting you would see lagfest fleet battles of 2,000 within a few weeks.

A couple of years ago a 100 ship fleet battle was a big (laggy) deal.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 27, 2007, 07:10:31 AM
Trying imply that BOB knew about issue beforehand and tried to use it is retarded and will get you answers like LCs just wrote.

I'd be delighted if you quoted the bit where I said anything of the sort.  All I can find is this:

Quote from: Endie
I didn't say Bob did it on purpose, nor spout any tinfoil theories about collusion or sploits.

I accept that English isn't your first language, but that's pretty clear.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 27, 2007, 07:59:51 AM
Desyncs happen since Rev 2.0 pretty much every time and they happen to both parties. Imagine what first batch of BoB folks felt when they realized not only half of fleet stayed behind, but they desynced in system swaring with enemies!

However, you didn't lost because of desync, but thanks to dumb FC. Trying imply that BOB knew about issue beforehand and tried to use it is retarded and will get you answers like LCs just wrote.

Of course it was "FAIR LAG" when the same thing happened to us at the battle for shrike's titan. You never saw any goons complain about the lag when it worked in their favor. But when it works against them it means BoB is exploiting it to win fights.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 27, 2007, 08:09:57 AM
SirMolle said that he didn't desync during that fight.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 27, 2007, 08:12:19 AM
SirMolle said that he didn't desync during that fight.

But the majority of the people who came to defend the Titan did.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 27, 2007, 08:32:15 AM
As did most of the people attacking it. What's your point?

Also, while you're at it, please provide a plausible alternate explanation as to how a fleet which was outnumbered somewhere between two-to-one and three-to-one by a competant opponent of similar composition managed to kill so many enemies with so few losses.

Either every single other battle involving BoB, TCF, Goonswarm, etc. up to this point in time has been a complete fluke and TCF/Goons/RA should have been bankrupted months ago...or something was up in this particular one. What does Occam's Razor suggest here?


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 27, 2007, 09:03:17 AM
As did most of the people attacking it. What's your point?

That you didn't care until it worked against you.

Also, while you're at it, please provide a plausible alternate explanation as to how a fleet which was outnumbered somewhere between two-to-one and three-to-one by a competant opponent of similar composition managed to kill so many enemies with so few losses.

Either every single other battle involving BoB, TCF, Goonswarm, etc. up to this point in time has been a complete fluke and TCF/Goons/RA should have been bankrupted months ago...or something was up in this particular one. What does Occam's Razor suggest here?

I will be kind and list some reasons for your losses since you cant figure it out on your own.

- Poor Leadership
- Your alliances are full of BoB spies. (We always know where you are, how many, and when you plan to make your move. This is especially true for Goonswarm.)
- Working for the isk farmers. (Red Alliance's goals are much different than your own.)
- Goonswarm is infested with low quality players. (It's like a giant PUG.)
 

Lag is a factor for both sides.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on June 27, 2007, 09:22:29 AM

:roll:

How is it living down under the bridge there?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Reg on June 27, 2007, 10:07:18 AM
BoB people have an absolute gift for making themselves the most unpopular kids in the school don't they? And it's not like they're the cool kids that everyone is jealous of. Nope, it's just a complete lack of social skills. It's the AV club on steroids.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Righ on June 27, 2007, 11:20:59 AM
Both sides in this pissing contest come off as whiny self-aggrandizing conspiratorial lunatics, so its not as if they're alone.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on June 27, 2007, 11:25:24 AM
Both sides in this pissing contest come off as whiny self-aggrandizing conspiratorial lunatics, so its not as if they're alone.

That's giving them too much credit. I was going to say they came off as elementary schoolchildren fighting on the playground.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vinadil on June 27, 2007, 11:32:21 AM
Pshhh, the BoB vs Goonswarm war is one of the reasons I am back in EVE... even though I will likely never be a part of it.  It makes for great lunch-time reading, and is the closest thing to Star Wars 4 I have read in a long time.  There are few stories better than the Free Rebellion taking on the Evil Empire :).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Alkiera on June 27, 2007, 12:00:23 PM
Pshhh, the BoB vs Goonswarm war is one of the reasons I am back in EVE... even though I will likely never be a part of it.  It makes for great lunch-time reading, and is the closest thing to Star Wars 4 I have read in a long time.  There are few stories better than the Free Rebellion taking on the Evil Empire :).

I get the same effect, without actually playing the game... I just read this thread.

--
Alkiera


Title: Re: War
Post by: Reg on June 27, 2007, 12:01:19 PM
If I thought the BoB guys were purposely playing the Evil Empire role I'd have a lot more respect for them. Instead they're just the bad guys because they don't know how not to come across as total assholes.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 27, 2007, 12:01:27 PM
[edited out because of what my mother always tells me about the consequences of arguing with fools]

Our PUG killed a titan!  Well, it was probably the Bob spies in our ranks.  Send more spies plz, tia.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 27, 2007, 12:52:00 PM
[edited out because of what my mother always tells me about the consequences of arguing with fools]

Our PUG killed a titan!  Well, it was probably the Bob spies in our ranks.  Send more spies plz, tia.

Get Evil Thug out on the field. Lets see how long he lasts under the new rules.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vinadil on June 27, 2007, 01:01:37 PM
You should start that with "Red Rover, Red Rover... let Evil Thug come over."

Those guys can hardly every resist such a taunt.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nevermore on June 27, 2007, 01:24:04 PM
There are few stories better than the Free Rebellion Asshole Jocks taking on the Evil Empire Asshole Rich Kids :wink:.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vinadil on June 27, 2007, 01:30:17 PM
All joking aside... anyone who has attempted to lead a multi-national group of people that consists of 100+ members to accomplish a certain goal and actually Succeeds even in part gains some respect from me.

How many other MMOs have groups the size that you see in EVE?  I cannot think of any.  The level of teamwork it takes to tackle some of the things these people do is simply amazing.  These are not 13yr old punks.  They may be 30 yr. old punks, but they also have some incredible organizational skills.  Imagine this... they are basically doing the HARDEST kind of people management.

They are not managing employees (people you pay).  They are not managing volunteers (people who work for free).  They are managing Customees?  Man what do you even call a person who pays someone else and then chooses to work for you?  My job deals with motivating volunteers to achieve shared goals.  That has its own unique challenges.  But, motivating people who are paying for an Entertainment to band together to reach "shared" (we have to be honest and say the people who truly make these goals are a small number) goals is impressive to me.

Whether or not either side is "good" or "bad", they have truly created an EPIC feel to this game... one that no game since Shadowbane has managed, and to a scale that SB could never reach with their server splits, game design, and performance issues.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 27, 2007, 01:41:48 PM
[edited out because of what my mother always tells me about the consequences of arguing with fools]
Yeah, you're probably right.
Sorry folks.  :oops:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Signe on June 27, 2007, 01:57:31 PM
The PvP in this thread delivers.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on June 27, 2007, 02:05:19 PM
The PvP in this thread delivers.
It's not as good as the Trammel/pre-Trammel PvP.


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on June 27, 2007, 03:41:57 PM
Quote
These are not 13yr old punks. They may be 30 yr. old punks
so very true  :mrgreen:


Since revII a 100+ fleet jump in will insta-desync the 100+ fleet on grid. Its happening. Its 100% reproducible. Its game breaking.

While that is a big enough bug on its own, the desyncing going on when shrike got bubbled was even more worrisome. It was a perfect legit kill, no arguing about that. But the second shrike got decloaked he became the centre of the eve universe for a whole lot of people. Our irc alarms went up and I suppose the other side rallied just the same. It resulted in massive desyncs over the entire grid as everybody scrambled to get to 46dp-o. The desyncs were happing in systems 15 hops away. People saw stations whooshing by as they waited to get to the gate or cyno. Rats disappeared instead of dying and I have unreliable reports of people who claim there was no lag at all in Jita for at least half an hour.

There was no insane fleet battle going on at that time, it was just people jumping in fleets into the same system and the entire south went tits up.

Something is seriously going bunkers up in CCP database land and untill they fix it, every stationary fleet will be a sitting duck once the opposing fleet jumps into the system.







Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 27, 2007, 03:53:25 PM
...Rats disappeared instead of dying and I have unreliable reports of people who claim there was no lag at all in Jita for at least half an hour.

Nice setup, excellent timing, superb delivery.  Rated 5.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Teleku on June 27, 2007, 05:42:16 PM
Pshhh, the BoB vs Goonswarm war is one of the reasons I am back in EVE... even though I will likely never be a part of it.  It makes for great lunch-time reading, and is the closest thing to Star Wars 4 I have read in a long time.  There are few stories better than the Free Rebellion taking on the Evil Empire :).
Unfortunatly the dialog between the two sides in this thread is of the prequel acting quality, and not the first 3 :p.

It would be awesome if they could both destroy each other some how.  Maybe they will have one mighty battle where they bring almost everybody in the game to fight, and the servers will just explode in a fiery blaze.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Signe on June 27, 2007, 05:54:48 PM
The PvP in this thread delivers.
It's not as good as the Trammel/pre-Trammel PvP.

The NGE thread PvP was pretty decent, too.  Good times.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 28, 2007, 02:27:07 AM
...and the servers will just explode in a fiery blaze.
That tends to happen anyway on a regular basis, no matter what. :-)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on June 28, 2007, 05:40:13 AM
The PvP in this thread delivers.
It's not as good as the Trammel/pre-Trammel PvP.

Miss you too honey :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: LK on June 28, 2007, 11:11:31 AM
The problem is that you can stop someone in these games but they'll never die unless they decide to stop playing the game.  Kinda like if you killed German forces in WWII and they just spawned back at base -- we'd still be in WWII right now if that happened unless we took out the spawn tubes and shunted them off into space.  BUT THEY'D STILL BE OUT THERE, WAITING.

But you know what I mean.  They can't take each other out, just shift where they hang out.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vinadil on June 28, 2007, 11:19:13 AM
And this is probably one of the reasons why EVE is still going and growing.  If you have too much of a "Play to Crush" mentality, then you find much of your playerbase leaving the game on a regular basis.  EVE allows people time to lick their wounds and come back, which is a good thing if you want them to keep paying you.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on June 28, 2007, 02:16:50 PM
So, back to flam^H^H^H war reporting?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 28, 2007, 03:24:41 PM
http://chimpymonkey.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/32/32e1f9bb92ed5deb4e4c028ea296283d6d694e5d.jpg
BoB desynced this time around.  :rofl:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 28, 2007, 04:06:17 PM
It was already ironic when we'd blown up a piloted titan, but I just had to repeat this:

I will be kind and list some reasons for your losses since you cant figure it out on your own.

- Poor Leadership
- Your alliances are full of BoB spies. (We always know where you are, how many, and when you plan to make your move. This is especially true for Goonswarm.)
- Working for the isk farmers. (Red Alliance's goals are much different than your own.)
- Goonswarm is infested with low quality players. (It's like a giant PUG.)

Maybe you want to change your mind and agree that there is crippling lag involved at the moment, which tends to punish one side but not the other?  Or did Goonfleet just wipe out almost a hundred Bob because of a skill gap and our superior FCing and tactics?


Title: Re: War
Post by: LK on June 28, 2007, 05:19:53 PM
I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the screenshot, but...

Gold.  :woot:


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 28, 2007, 06:31:33 PM
It was already ironic when we'd blown up a piloted titan, but I just had to repeat this:

I will be kind and list some reasons for your losses since you cant figure it out on your own.

- Poor Leadership
- Your alliances are full of BoB spies. (We always know where you are, how many, and when you plan to make your move. This is especially true for Goonswarm.)
- Working for the isk farmers. (Red Alliance's goals are much different than your own.)
- Goonswarm is infested with low quality players. (It's like a giant PUG.)

Maybe you want to change your mind and agree that there is crippling lag involved at the moment, which tends to punish one side but not the other?  Or did Goonfleet just wipe out almost a hundred Bob because of a skill gap and our superior FCing and tactics?

I never said there was no crippling lag. I just don't believe the lag is being caused intentionally by one side. My statement was not limited to just that one battle. I wasn't there, and I have no clue what happened. I was just going by previous experiences since the question was: "HOW COULD WE LOSE WITH MORE SHIPS?"

Yes the lag was awful. I think 1/2 of our fleet was destroyed before we even loaded the grid. I managed to warp out with only 10% of my armor left.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 29, 2007, 02:58:00 AM
I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the screenshot, but...

Gold.  :woot:

As far as I understand - it was while I was at work - it went like this:

Bob try to knock a bunch of our JV PoS's into reinforced with dreads.  They take them down below 50%, then try to keep them there for a few hours so we can't adjust stront timings.  Net result would be the PoS's coming out of reinforced in weekend Bob prime.  However, more and more RA and AAA were beginning to circle just outside the radius of their campfire, with wicked teeth and long claws, longing for a chance to take down the Bob capitals, so Bob had to fall back to using battleships jumpbridged-in by Chowdown's titan.  Given that the hardeners were still up on the PoS's (though not the guns) this was going to take forever.

GS and our French allies TCF went to 9-9, where we had taken sovereignty from Bob (for a while) in a rather more successful version of what they were trying to do to us.  We camped and bubbled the gate Bob would need to come back through (they knew fine well that using Chowdown to jumpbridge out of JV would probably end up with a second titan loss in a week whie he was immobilised without a PoS to hang out at).

Then our forces in 9-9 started shooting the station, in order to take it back (temporarily at least).  Bob got riled and jumped into our camp, presumably hoping for a successful roll of the desynch dice.  Unluckily for them, they suffered worse than we did this time, and the results were pretty one-sided in the main.  Presumably, our Bob-spy-infested forces threw themselves into the attack in an attempt to prove their bona fides, and killed lots of their compatriots on the other Bob side, while all the goons in their PUG flew in circles spamming local with "fofofo" and asking "how I shot web at station?  Giev missel or bump!"

I'm not 100% sure on what came next, but I gather we used some carriers to rep stuff, Bob thought "those will do" and came after them, only to get comprehensively fighter-bombed.  That bit wasn't, from what i understand, particularly laggy for anyone.

Vive nos copains francais et russes!


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on June 29, 2007, 07:51:22 AM
I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the screenshot, but...

Gold.  :woot:

As far as I understand - it was while I was at work - it went like this:

Bob try to knock a bunch of our JV PoS's into reinforced with dreads.  They take them down below 50%, then try to keep them there for a few hours so we can't adjust stront timings.  Net result would be the PoS's coming out of reinforced in weekend Bob prime.  However, more and more RA and AAA were beginning to circle just outside the radius of their campfire, with wicked teeth and long claws, longing for a chance to take down the Bob capitals, so Bob had to fall back to using battleships jumpbridged-in by Chowdown's titan.  Given that the hardeners were still up on the PoS's (though not the guns) this was going to take forever.

GS and our French allies TCF went to 9-9, where we had taken sovereignty from Bob (for a while) in a rather more successful version of what they were trying to do to us.  We camped and bubbled the gate Bob would need to come back through (they knew fine well that using Chowdown to jumpbridge out of JV would probably end up with a second titan loss in a week whie he was immobilised without a PoS to hang out at).

Then our forces in 9-9 started shooting the station, in order to take it back (temporarily at least).  Bob got riled and jumped into our camp, presumably hoping for a successful roll of the desynch dice.  Unluckily for them, they suffered worse than we did this time, and the results were pretty one-sided in the main.  Presumably, our Bob-spy-infested forces threw themselves into the attack in an attempt to prove their bona fides, and killed lots of their compatriots on the other Bob side, while all the goons in their PUG flew in circles spamming local with "fofofo" and asking "how I shot web at station?  Giev missel or bump!"

I'm not 100% sure on what came next, but I gather we used some carriers to rep stuff, Bob thought "those will do" and came after them, only to get comprehensively fighter-bombed.  That bit wasn't, from what i understand, particularly laggy for anyone.

Vive nos copains francais et russes!

Sounds about right except "fofofo" and "how do i shot web" are not Somethingawful memes. 


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on June 29, 2007, 08:11:48 AM
:psyduck:
We're talking about a Goonswarm - a subset of SA goons - not the SA forums as a whole.

Pop quiz: Where was Moot posting before he started 4chan?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 29, 2007, 08:41:39 AM
Sounds about right except "fofofo" and "how do i shot web" are not Somethingawful memes. 

In the holy name of Tiger Fai, you need better spies!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ironwood on June 29, 2007, 08:43:25 AM
Careful; he's in ur base, killing ur dudes.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on June 29, 2007, 09:31:29 AM
Careful; he's in ur base, killing ur dudes.

And when I say "base", I mean "ass".  And when I say "killing your dudes", I etc....


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on July 01, 2007, 06:54:04 PM
I'm a bit confused... Are you saying you want to engage in sodomy with Ironwood?


Title: Re: War
Post by: cmlancas on July 01, 2007, 07:27:42 PM
I'm a bit confused... Are you saying you want to engage in sodomy with Ironwood?

Clearly. fofofo


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ironwood on July 02, 2007, 01:08:40 AM
I'm a bit confused... Are you saying you want to engage in sodomy with Ironwood?


He's only human.  I am stunningly attractive.

That said, I fear he's simply reinforcing my point with yet another SA Meme.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 02, 2007, 02:07:00 AM
It is, indeed, another SA meme.  The formula usually involves hilarious homosexual references or even more hilarious mother jokes:

"Dude, your sig is shitty.  And when i say "sig", I mean "mother". And when I say.. " and so on.

On SA, it's sufficiently recognisable as a tired-SA-meme that using it without really hilarious results may land you a 24-hour posting ban.

Plus, look at his avatar: he looks the spitting image of the dude out of Superman.  What's not to like?


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on July 02, 2007, 03:29:32 AM
Presumably, our Bob-spy-infested forces threw themselves into the attack in an attempt to prove their bona fides, and killed lots of their compatriots on the other Bob side, while all the goons in their PUG flew in circles spamming local with "fofofo" and asking "how I shot web at station?  Giev missel or bump!"

Gold.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Teleku on July 02, 2007, 04:11:38 AM
Ok, now that both sides here have had a good long dick waving session, can we get back to some actual war news?  Just curious if somebody could summarize the current events.  Like, situation in the North, wtf is actually being fought over in the south, state of alliance loyalties, etc.  Presented in an un-inflammatory manner would be nice  :wink:.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 02, 2007, 06:50:40 AM
My report on the "battle" on the 28th - which I thought was pretty restrained, and LC didn't have any major beef with - is pretty much the last big fight to happen in the south.  RKK forgot to fuel a large tower a couple of days ago, and we shot web at it til it popped, with ugly consequences in local chat when US Timezone Bob found out what Euro timezone Bob had gone and done.  We also snatched back sovereignty in 9-9 for long enough to retreive our stuff and reset the sovereignty counter*, which was nice.

We (GS, RA and TCF mainly) continue to probe POSs for now, but I think both sides are a bit leery of committing large fleets - especially dreads - when the results of being jumped by enemy fleets seems to be one side or the other mass-desynching and getting obliterated.

In the north, the disappearance of MC to restock and prepare for whatever their next contract is - here's a clue: it won't be for RA, Goons, TCF or AAA - has left YW and the rest etc exposed, and they and Razor etc lost a couple of hundred ships in their only fleet battle, at something like a 20-to-1 ratio.  Presumably they'll be stiffened by some reinforcements from their more competent allies, otherwise YW will, yet again, find themselves as everyone's favourite Xelas substitute.

-------

*This assumes that CCP have the sovereignty counter working, which may be naive.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Hellinar on July 02, 2007, 07:55:31 AM
Are the major alliances putting much effort into achieving constellation sovereignty? To a casual observer, it looks like consolidating your current holdings would be the priority at the moment, rather than expanding. Is that new sovereignty stuff not that big a deal? Or just takes so long to achieve its not having an immediate effect? Not trusted to work anyway?

Any comments? Or is it all secret just now..


Title: Re: War
Post by: ajax34i on July 02, 2007, 08:22:47 AM
From what's been said here, it sounds like they're trying to figure out WTF to do with their titans, and trying to avoid a situation where their fleet gets destroyed by that desynch bug, so everything is pretty much on hold until CCP fixes the bugs they re-introduced (and the new ones) with their patch.  It was a typical CCP patch, after all.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 02, 2007, 08:48:18 AM
Are the major alliances putting much effort into achieving constellation sovereignty? To a casual observer, it looks like consolidating your current holdings would be the priority at the moment, rather than expanding. Is that new sovereignty stuff not that big a deal? Or just takes so long to achieve its not having an immediate effect? Not trusted to work anyway?

Any comments? Or is it all secret just now..

Sov is ticking up in the home constellations of most of the major alliances, as most of the big ones had seen this change coming a mile away and put up the spare outpost it takes to boost a constellation from 2 to 3 stations well ahead of time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 02, 2007, 09:44:33 AM
In the north, the disappearance of MC to restock and prepare for whatever their next contract is - here's a clue: it won't be for RA, Goons, TCF or AAA

Word on the street is it'll be IAC for round III of Prohibition. Considering Part I and II of this action move thriller ended in the near destruction of their employer (ISS) and the threat of AAA still hangs in the darkness close by, it will be an interesting encounter (though I don't know how attached AAA is to Catch now they arn't complex whoring it any more).

FIX is regualry losing entire fleets when they come into Catch (and carriers in Querious), so unless Uncle BoB shows up and AAA is willing to counter MC's cap fleet, opening a new front when you're in a quagmire elsewhere I can't see working out too well in the end.

Perhaps BoB is tired of Tyraxx renting out BoB claimed space to ISK farmers, it must be a bit humiliating. Or it could be before IAC gets constellation capatils on both ends of Catch. MC would want to attack before we can get Cyrno Jammers up to counter their cap fleet advantage (which is a huge card in their hand IAC can't match without AAA/GS help).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 02, 2007, 11:43:46 AM
Apparently, GONAD didn't want Omist after all and, after trying to sublet space from ISS, are strongly considering going back to empire. BoB can't find any tenants to replace them, either.

Told you that Omist was a nightmare.  :-)

Edit: Awesomely fun CAOD thread. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=548351) :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 02, 2007, 12:46:54 PM
Edit: Awesomely fun CAOD thread. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=548351) :D

Brilliant!  Nopbody riles Bob like james315 (maybe because of his killing so many of them in the Kill Bobby video!).  His success can be measured by the huge number of Bob mains who immediately flamed him with ad hominem attacks.

Quote
James, I wish to remind you that all successful entities are bonded by a unique glue. For Red Alliance, Russian; for TCF, French; for GoonSwarm, being goons. But pilots come to the Band of Brothers from all over for one reason: to win, every time. The purpose of BoB is to win an unbroken string of victories. To never persevere through loss or hardship, to never risk a real defeat.

That bit is particularly clever.  The constant niggling about the difference in goals between MC and BoB (continued from his last uberpost) is smart, too.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on July 02, 2007, 01:47:01 PM
Anyone got an update on the North? I've been on vacation and haven't had a chance to log in.
6/25 Influence Map (http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/UNL/070625.png)
Latest Influence Map (http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/UNL/influence.png)

Looks like TITS lost a bunch of stations to RAZOR in Tenal, and I believe MM was involved. My forum intel indicates maybe RAZOR is not currently engaging MC in hostilities? I haven't heard whether RAZOR is shooting M. Pire yet.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 02, 2007, 04:27:25 PM
No longer very opsec: for all those asking how the war is going: Bob just got one pos destroyed and nine put into reinforced in 9-9, of which eight are due to come out in Russian prime-time, tovarischen.  Normally, this would be due to comedy Bob stront timing (the one that's coming out at a different time is as a result of that).  This time, however, it's because we made the conscious decision that we could comfortably attack in Bob's prime-time, which threw their stront timings right out.

Of course, as LC made clear, Bob must have known about this attack in advance due to their hundreds of spies, so we're just falling into a cunning trap.  Current odds: siege settled by mass desynch on either side: 11/2 on.  CCP's patch tomorrow resets BoB timers: evens.  CCP's patch tomorrow accidentally resets BoB timers: 7/2.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nija on July 03, 2007, 12:10:37 AM
Sounds about right except "fofofo" and "how do i shot web" are not Somethingawful memes. 

In the holy name of Tiger Fai, you need better spies!

No, he's right. We personally know Spleen. Hell, I work on his car.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 03, 2007, 06:49:00 AM
That bit is particularly clever.  The constant niggling about the difference in goals between MC and BoB (continued from his last uberpost) is smart, too.
If I were Seleene, I'd be getting mildly irritated by now re: having to clean up various problems for BoB (D2/IRON first, now IAC/AAA) while merely viewed as a particularly dangerous pet (while BoB continue smacking away about how great BoB are). I mean, it is MC that's done all the heavy lifting in the last couple of months - BoB's recent victories were at least partially reliant on POS-spam & invincible supercaps and now that both of those were nerfed, BoB seem to have stalled somewhat.

If the rumours (from the Goon that came in from the cold) about some of the BoB playerbase are true*, BoB may need a significant victory of their own soon...or at the very least, no more major losses for a while.

*OK, the rumour: Quite a few BoB players 'play' EVE by idling in IRC and only log in once an op is called. When the op is over, they log out again - no PvE at all, just pure PvP combat. When you're winning, that's certainly a fairly viable tactic (especially with communist corps, which is how at least one core BoB corp is run). If, however, you're losing ships (and battles) every time you log in...you might just stop logging in at all.


Edit: welp, opsec appears to be lifted now so - new outpost in KZF thanks to Darkstar One (assuming that the patch doesn't break things). :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 03, 2007, 08:07:14 AM
First Wang decloak the titan, now DS1 put a refinery right next-door to our factory, in a superb mining system, potentially solving the logistical problems we've faced ever since we moved our centre of ops closer to the enemy.  And they did it with three people in Bob primetime.  Our allies are awesome.  I wonder if Cyvok's ultrabillions will help us with the push for const sov.

PS For those listening in, we put a couple more Bob POSs into reinforced this morning.  They come out at the same-ish time tomorrow as the other lot.  Damn my euro playing hours: I'll have to watch and see which way the desynch dice roll from work.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on July 03, 2007, 08:32:16 AM

It's like playing Axis & Allies in space! Maybe CCP planned the desync mechanism all along...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 03, 2007, 11:05:28 AM
HZF, not KZF, dude. Making two triple-outpost constellations for one alliance. The mind boggles.

Also, looks like GONAD has pretty much crumbled after 23/7 harassment by the coalition - word on the street is that they're retreating to Essence, which is 0.0-proximate empire, near Syndicate and some tightly BoB-controlled parts of the northwest. No news yet on who's going to replace them in Omist, if anyone.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 03, 2007, 11:27:02 AM
Did this latest update tackle the desynch problem, or is CCP still scratching their heads over that one?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 03, 2007, 12:12:08 PM
Answer unclear, ask again later.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 03, 2007, 12:29:11 PM
Answer unclear, ask again later.
Goddamn CCP 8-ball.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on July 03, 2007, 01:35:02 PM
23/7 harassment

That's cute.... :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 03, 2007, 01:44:26 PM
Quote
*OK, the rumour: Quite a few BoB players 'play' EVE by idling in IRC and only log in once an op is called. When the op is over, they log out again - no PvE at all, just pure PvP combat. When you're winning, that's certainly a fairly viable tactic (especially with communist corps, which is how at least one core BoB corp is run). If, however, you're losing ships (and battles) every time you log in...you might just stop logging in at all.


Most long time EVE players are the same really. So much of the game is just wait or 'maintain' while it runs itself, its only natural.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 03, 2007, 04:14:50 PM
Answer unclear, ask again later.
Dear Magic CCP 8-Ball: Has the latest patch fixed the desynch problem? Because the whining is making me kill kittens, and the local shelter is getting suspicious.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on July 03, 2007, 04:54:23 PM
I'm hearing the problem has actually gotten worse with smaller scale engagements becoming more prone to it now.   Might just be a few patch day quirks but not comforting.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 03, 2007, 06:42:33 PM
Desynch-wise, we just had a 60-a-side fleet fight with fighter and drone swarms deployed on both sides, with Bob jumping in on us 6 times, and nobody seemed to desynch on either side, judging from the way they jumped targets around.

The result of what was pretty much straight goon-vs-Bob was absolute, one-sided murder.  We knocked down a small POS (they forgot to password too, lol) filled their KB with their own battleships, AFs, HACs etc, and took down a carrier to boot.  My first merlin was a significant percentage of our losses, and despite having to jump two systems to get back, I still got on two KMs and got the points and webs (truncated) on two more.  T1 frigate backbone survives.

Now it's almost 3am and I didn't notice til now :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 04, 2007, 01:15:55 AM
HZF, not KZF, dude.
Meh, I was close.  :-P


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 04, 2007, 02:18:17 AM
22 POSs.

We put 22 POSs into reinforced last night, most of them after we cleared BoB out of the 9-9 system in the big fleet action.  Other than a couple of half-hearted inty raids (not wise when Huginns are in the target gang  :lol: ) we just rolled around blowing crap up and having fun.  I eventually took the dog out for her last walk at 4am, got back in, and set my alarm for two and a half hours' sleep.  The carnage was still ongoing at that point.

Bob's killboard (http://killboard.net/) will surely change today, but it looks lovely right now.  Especially since almost every kill is by goons, not allies.  No doubt they'll manage to get their shit together for today's series of towers coming out of reinforced, but last night was delicious.  It got to the point where I was thinking "Bob cannot have got this soft.  Surely this must be setting up an immense Bob/MC login trap for the RA dreads in the morning?!?"


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 05, 2007, 08:05:05 AM
Yeah, it'd be interesting to see what the BoB+friends take on the 9-9 situation is - even from my blockade-running POV & following the actual conflict via messageboard, something slightly odd is going on down there.

There's an entertaining rumour kicking around that BoB higher-ups have been telling their people that Goonswarm only managed put two smalls into reinforced and nothing else...which is going to make explaining why sovereignty went to neutral over today's downtime a fun job for someone.

Desync bug: Difficult to tell - nobody's seriously complained about it in GS since the tuesday patch but whether that means that it's been fixed or if we've just all been very lucky is unknowable.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 05, 2007, 09:00:21 AM
I've been dying to hear from Joe or LC just what they've been being told by their leadership is going on in 9-9.  We've been blowing up POSes literally faster than BOB can put them up - I know because I've been there for the last few nights until after 3am, watching POSes go into reinforced and reinforced POSes go bang.  Some of them have terrible stront.  Others have no passwords set.  We put one into reinforced last night literally within 2 minutes of it being onlined, before guns, hardeners, fuel or the like could be set up.  Huh?

And yet the Bob pilots in local, who are almost always on the gate or the station undock and who virtually never come to any POSes, seem from what they say in local honestly to believe that we are getting hammered.  That Eve-O ("I hear") thread has Bob pilots who have obviously been told we are just spamming smalls into moons in 9-9?!?  Our two fleet fights in the last week - both of which saw huge GF victories and us left looting cans - have been in latish Euro time (thus me being able to be there for the second) with pretty even numbers. But the Bob pilots still seem to really, genuinely believe that 9-9 is safe.  Or was, until downtime when they lost sov.

I logged in in my lunch break but all we did was shoot more POS guns in preparation to take down a large and run high guard for a counter-attack attack that never came.  Bob eventually tried to snipe at around 2.30pm, and lost 4 battleships a command ship, a battlecruiser and a cruiser in return for two cruisers, a frigate and a (ho-ho) raptor.  I'm not saying that matters - we certainly wouldn't care if the k/d tables were turned - but it's weird.  Eve's biggest rope-a-dope strategy?

Even while I'm at work, every few hours there is another update on the GF forums on another BoB POS - often a large - which has been destroyed (one more large an hour ago).  Do Bob pilots know this is happening?

This honestly isn't meant as dick-waving: I'm noty saying for a second that we'll be seiging POSes in NOL within the month.  I am just really interested in what Bob pilots know, and what their take is.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 05, 2007, 12:24:37 PM
BoB have gone very quiet in the EVE threads on a couple of other boards I read (FoH and an old EQ board) - I'm guessing that they're up to something, so they've been told to keep quiet about everything...just in case.

Loose lips sink ships, and all that.  :nda:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Miasma on July 05, 2007, 12:27:49 PM
What did you guys do to Mahrin, he hasn't posted in ages.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 05, 2007, 12:29:07 PM
BoB have gone very quiet in the EVE threads on a couple of other boards I read (FoH and an old EQ board) - I'm guessing that they're up to something, so they've been told to keep quiet about everything...just in case.

Loose lips sink ships, and all that.  :nda:
Whatever they're doing, they've been neglecting 9-9 -- whether because of bad timing (holidays), or they're tactics for Revelation don't work, or whether they're still trying to readjust to the new role of titans, or because they're planning something -- I don't know.

The Titan nerf hit them hard, no doubt. BoB's always had good FCs, though, so I can't understand the total collapse in 9-9 over the last week or so. It wasn't like they got to be so powerful JUST from having Titans, so I don't know what's going on. I'm sure they're planning something, but it's more likely to be in response to 9-9 than an excuse for it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on July 05, 2007, 03:25:55 PM

Channeling Ackbar! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY0ClsW1QX4)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 05, 2007, 03:52:32 PM
Something happened which is either an awesome prank or an utterly hilarious corptheft. 
I'm not quite sure which, so... :popcorn: + leekspin


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 05, 2007, 04:49:24 PM
Something happened which is either an awesome prank or an utterly hilarious corptheft. 
I'm not quite sure which, so... :popcorn: + leekspin

I haven't heard of anything like that.

Yes we are up to something. No, I can't tell you what it is. I'm sure you will find out soon enough.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 05, 2007, 05:16:52 PM
Something happened which is either an awesome prank or an utterly hilarious corptheft. 
I'm not quite sure which, so... :popcorn: + leekspin

I haven't heard of anything like that.

Yes we are up to something. No, I can't tell you what it is. I'm sure you will find out soon enough.

No, this in Goonfleet-internal stuff. I think it's hilarious. But then, I wasn't directly involved and don't have a personal stake in it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 05, 2007, 05:23:47 PM
The suspense is killing me!  :x


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on July 05, 2007, 05:52:22 PM
The suspense is killing me!  :x
There's thread on eve-o forum, no idea if it's related or anything of it is true, but knock yourself out:

"Remedial steals goonswarm's titan fund" http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=551286


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 05, 2007, 05:56:03 PM
The suspense is killing me!  :x
There's thread on eve-o forum, no idea if it's related or anything of it is true, but knock yourself out:

"Remedial steals goonswarm's titan fund" http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=551286
I blame CCP.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 05, 2007, 06:33:51 PM
No, this in Goonfleet-internal stuff. I think it's hilarious. But then, I wasn't directly involved and don't have a personal stake in it.

Sorry, I thought he was talking about a corp theft in BoB.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 05, 2007, 06:51:14 PM
As far as I can tell, the story is Remedial stole the goon titan fund, to buy more ham.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 05, 2007, 09:43:41 PM
I find this hard to believe as being true (it would be a nice plan to lull BoB into a false sense of security about the arrival of an enemy Titan) but if it is, but we *please* get an official response from Goonswarm to a)put on Eve TV and b)make a new legend and myth of the game.

The GHSC heist is one of the legends of EvE. If this happened, this needs to be another one. Goons are right, it would be hilerious, and also a tragady, of Shakespearean proportions. GoonSwarm has a chance to have a new story added to their saga: The Day They Lost The Titan Fund To A Lawyer.


Title: Re: War
Post by: tmp on July 05, 2007, 09:54:09 PM
I find this hard to believe as being true (it would be a nice plan to lull BoB into a false sense of security about the arrival of an enemy Titan) but if it is, but we *please* get an official response from Goonswarm to a)put on Eve TV and b)make a new legend and myth of the game.
I don't really believe in this story (previous pranks pretty much ensured Goons' credibilty is near zero when it comes to such things) but on the other hand if this is some kind of stunt to make people believe there's no titan to be used then it's also completely pointless... as after recent patch no one expects anyone to use titan actively on the field as it is. If GS used their titan now it would come as unexpected as it can get, without any extra mindgame.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 05, 2007, 10:39:48 PM
As far as I can tell, the story is Remedial stole the goon titan fund, to buy more ham.

This is, in fact, the :popcorn: story. They're claiming they'll complete the Goon titan anyway, but it will be behind schedule, so I don't know whether to believe it or not.

In either case, doesn't affect me much, as they're not changing anything in the Fleet, aside from booting Remedial's characters from the corp. And he was inactive for the past month or so anyway.

Edit: There's now a thread from Remedial with an open letter saying he did it because he got politically neutered as the GF directors that liked him left, so he stole the titan fund and gave 55 billion to a random newbie. Shortly thereafter, one of the directors posts a series of screenshots showing the titan fund character giving Remedial 46 billion and then sending 25 billion to a different account's character that sounds a lot like an ISK ebayer's name ("Irreputable Salesman"). The final 23 billion was transferred back to Goonfleet by the director using Remedial's information.

:popcorn:


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 05, 2007, 11:03:59 PM
I find this hard to believe as being true (it would be a nice plan to lull BoB into a false sense of security about the arrival of an enemy Titan) but if it is, but we *please* get an official response from Goonswarm to a)put on Eve TV and b)make a new legend and myth of the game.
I don't really believe in this story (previous pranks pretty much ensured Goons' credibilty is near zero when it comes to such things) but on the other hand if this is some kind of stunt to make people believe there's no titan to be used then it's also completely pointless... as after recent patch no one expects anyone to use titan actively on the field as it is. If GS used their titan now it would come as unexpected as it can get, without any extra mindgame.

Use it to do what? Transport their freighters to empire?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 05, 2007, 11:05:41 PM
I find this hard to believe as being true (it would be a nice plan to lull BoB into a false sense of security about the arrival of an enemy Titan) but if it is, but we *please* get an official response from Goonswarm to a)put on Eve TV and b)make a new legend and myth of the game.
I don't really believe in this story (previous pranks pretty much ensured Goons' credibilty is near zero when it comes to such things) but on the other hand if this is some kind of stunt to make people believe there's no titan to be used then it's also completely pointless... as after recent patch no one expects anyone to use titan actively on the field as it is. If GS used their titan now it would come as unexpected as it can get, without any extra mindgame.

Use it to do what? Transport their freighters to empire?

I'm fairly sure that was the plan anyway - use the jumpbridge to help deal with the logistics of fueling tons of outposts in the POS spam war.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 06, 2007, 02:50:17 AM
I'm still leaning towards 'prank' because embezelling thousands of dollars from three thousand Goons who know your RL name & address is an incredibly stupid thing to do (especially if you're an aspiring lawyer who hasn't made it to the bar yet - hello, ethics commitee!) plus one or two other details which don't add up...but if it is real then it's definitely the best 'fuck Goons' ever. :roflcopter:

Edit: To be frank*, more people seemed upset about the revelation that, a month or two ago, Remedial suggested to the Directorate that GS should surrender to BoB & go back to Syndicate than about the ISK. But then again that could all be the character assassination part of a potential prank. Maybe there's a smaller ham inside.

*Obligatory 'frankfrankfrankfrankfrankfrankfrankfrankfrankfrank'


Title: Re: War
Post by: Sparky on July 06, 2007, 03:55:09 AM
but if it is real then it's definitely the best 'fuck Goons' ever. :roflcopter:

I still think Mawg Spawn's was better :colbert:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 06, 2007, 08:24:28 AM
The GHSC heist is one of the legends of EvE. If this happened, this needs to be another one. Goons are right, it would be hilerious, and also a tragady, of Shakespearean proportions. GoonSwarm has a chance to have a new story added to their saga: The Day They Lost The Titan Fund To A Lawyer.
Nah -- the GHSC heist was awesome because they inflitrated a corp for the express purpose of destroying it -- and took the money when they did so.

If this is true, it's the EVE equivilant of some pissy ass disbanding the Guild rather than just quitting it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 06, 2007, 04:02:56 PM
GS report, it's been posted on foh already.

Quote
Operation push shit in is over. We need to figure a few things out, then the new operation will be announced.

So, write up time

Things were going well in GF for a while, we had steam rolled over V and LV and we had accumulated a shit tonne of space that nobody (including us) wanted. I made XGH the specops base and we were all down in K-9 having a PARTY. Then suddenly things stopped going so quite so well. BoB came to 9-9 in force, at the same time Mittani and Remedial decided to start becoming increasingly erratic and everything started looking bad. The directorate were arguing, we couldn't hold space, we couldn't get a fleet up and for some reason we were turning on CCP instead of BoB. One week before BoB started their siege of XGH and 9-9 myself, sensi and xttz erected a secret POS (well they did most of the actual erection) in OP- at a non-scannable moon whilst warping through system, moved a CSAA into it and started a Nyx cooking. Everything was falling apart and we had a fucking specops NYX in construction 1 jump from a system BoB had sovereignity in. The huge sense of amusement growing in us about the chance to build a mothership right under BoBs nose was way too much for me to ignore, but I needed a distraction. I needed to keep bob OUT of OP- and in XGH.

We were told to abandon everything behind 77s8 by Mittani but Sesfan and I decided that we would take Specops and hold onto this system. We would throw EVERYTHING we could at XGH, live out of there and piss BoB off as much as humanly possible in order to get this Nyx out in one piece. In addition we knew that losing tenerifis would screw us, badly. The more concentrated goons were the more chance we had of bob mustering some immense force for 2 weeks compromising of all their allies and just wiping us out. I was desperate to keep our space spread out and our number concentrated.
We had a couple of days of Specops mining in G-D as we knew we'd need it and off we went. We lost ship after ship in XGH as BoB defended it. About this point we were so close and things were looking pretty dire, and with Mittani gone and Sesfan unable to publicly help us after calling a fallback to 77s8 we really struggled. The supercap swarm in XGH continued taking the station back, killing our onlining POS's with huge fighter swarms but we persevered.
It took almost all our assets but finally the Nyx popped out. Safely.
Xttz jumped in and we set about figuring out what the hell we were going to do next. Enter Nync. This guy is a fucking awesome dude. You all know this, but maybe you have no idea to what extent.

We had run out of money, fuel and towers. We were well down on POS's and we had another problem. Rodent was now 3/4 of the way through building all the components for his mothership and they were stuck in XGH. 20 freighter loads.
We couldn't complete the build and by this time BoB knew about the secret POS, but we couldn't leave him there to rot.
Nync agreed with the tactical assessment and was quite adament that we didn't lose XGH so I told him, quite plainly, "I have 2 guys here with me that will save XGH if you can give me towers and fuel."
Nync straight away agreed. That evening Xttz was in mateber hauling POS's down to XGH ready for deployment. Nync had more POS's stashed in 77s8 than I knew existed in the game. Rodent, Arachnid and Xttz worked overtime throwing towers up left, right and centre. BoB replied with counter spam.
About this time Rodent transferred the ISK to me for a new CSAA to go up near Scalding Pass for his MS and told me that I could use it to help get his shit out. Rodent and Xttz cranked up their tag-team Empire -> XGH logistics and we purchased something like 30 small POS's, two freighter loads of POS fuel and XTTZ spent the best part of a week hauling this shit relentlessly to XGH, over and over and over and over and over. You have no idea how many runs he did... nor do I, nor, probably, does he. Bob started pulling down POS's in 9-9 to supplement the spam of XGH, and that surprised us. Surely BoB would have an unlimited number of POS's because you know, they're bob, but that was not the case. We'd reached the breaking point of their logistics, and suddenly I smelt blood. POS count in XGH was something like 20-18 in their favour so I hatched a plan. One day before patch day we'd drop 10 or so larges in XGH (I cant remember exactly) then THIRTY smalls in XGH. The reason being that they would then have to ENGAGE us to be able to take them down.
I started thinking, and something brilliantly evil came to my mind.

I convo'd Nync and told him about the XGH POS spam, he agreed it was a great idea, and that it should work. I then said to him, "You realise the entirety of BoB is going to be in XGH and 9-9 only has 6 towers in it now". He was as surprised as I was about the fact BoB had to pull towers in 9-9 to spam XGH and he knew exactly what I was thinking. It was on.
We had lots of problems with RA participation up to this point.
They were having real troubles internally and they were often unable to come on ops in the numbers they used too, much like us. Nync and I however had a rapport, and with clear goals that we set out with the directorate we were both able to gently coax enough RA and GS back into the fight.

Patch day downtime came and things went fucking nuts. We got quite a few towers up but not as much as I wanted. BoB were indeed swarming into XGH as we thought and now things get hazy. Not only was I arseholed but I was doing 100 things at once. Then bam, 5 POS limit. In XGH we were 20 or so small short. I had guys pod themselves down from the OSS, fuck, Deros MADE A NEW CORP to be able to anchor a tower. Merch anchored 5 small, everything was kicking off. Special note that DS1 were around in XGH dropping THEIR towers to save the system, helping to stave off bob attacks and generally being the awesome dude I knew they were, and now you know too. Anyway, just as it was all kicking off, I cyno'd Lena into 9-9 with an RA capship fleet. I already had a tower in my cargo hold and dropped it.
Bob went fucking nuts.

They recalled everyone to 9-9 while RA were sitting there with their huge cap cocks hanging out and I'd anchored 5 POS's in 9-9. THEIR system. This was the perfect distraction for XGH which then allowed us to complete the take over. I was dropping POS's IN A CARRIER with Lena (fit with a cyno gen for more RA surprise) and fuelling them with Tolon and RA were warping around helping me.
At one point I had Red Lantern in a crow scramble my rigged hauler and suffered a serious "oh fuck" moment until Nync decloaked right next to me, jammed him allowing us both to warp of as 100 BoB descend onto our ONLINING tower.

Then it was done. XGH had the potential to be secure, and 9-9 turned into the new battle ground. I put out the order on the FC forums that we would turn XGH into a wasteland. We would NOT engage in 9-9 and we would not allow BoB to remember that the system still existed. This was and important part of the plan. I wanted these fucks out of XGH because I had a mothership to evacuate. DS1 helped to rep up the station and pos (further confirming their awesome status), Xttz got onto hauling duty and Nync provided the POS and the POS race for 9-9 began. CONSTANT shuttling from empire by Rodent and Xttz, Arachnid and Xttz's CONSTANT monitoring of the XGH POS's and me barking orders every now and again beat both TAOSP and RKK in a POS war.
The 4 of us, versus RKK and TAOSP. We won. We were on top of the moon, or at least I was.

The next priority was getting goon participation back up. This was a tough one. BoB and goons were both hit by apathy at the same time (it was lucky we did not flounder too much before they did) however we needed to get goons back into the fight and back ENJOYING the game. Firstly we wanted to shift the focus of blaming CCP. I was never happy with that, Sesfan was never happy with that and now that he was in charge it was done. The specops hauler team, Nync, Sesfan and specops had pretty much achieved as much as we could achieve now and we needed GF participation, we needed the old rapetrains, we needed our cap participation back up. We needed to revive GF. What followed was some a mixture of publicity (making successes far more prominent). A huge quantity of vodka mixed with some guitar playing and people started logging in again. Slowly at first, but it began to snowball.
Our 40 man ops became 80. Then 100. Last night we had 50 caps and 100-150 people.
That's OLD school numbers. Operation "Push Shit In" has been a huge success and you know what, even if things go terribly for a few weeks - we're back having a laugh, getting scammed by fat fucks and enjoying the game.

Whilst we've all being doing this in 9-9 we have evecuated rodents MS to a FAR safer region where it will soon start production (praises to the specops team that were running around escorting freighters while GF got fun fights).

There's a lot that's been left out of this that hasn't been to do with specops. Grayton and Stampert taking the reigns in 9-9 for fuelling, Sesfan's over seeing of everything FC'ing and general owning of all previous CEO's, Stampert's logistics, Widebrant, Scavok and many others picking up the slack when I'd drop the ball... but this is the story of how a few people beat back BoB and retook XGH, and how we ended up in contention for 9-9.

So if you see nync, xttz or rodent thank them. They saved XGH and 9-9 (and personally, I believe were instrumental in the saving of GS). They wouldn't have been able to without a LOT of other people's hard work but in my mind they were the ones that kicked off the take back of XGH and 9-9.

Thank you and donate, LOTS.

Give ISK to mantrain3.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 06, 2007, 06:37:36 PM
What did you guys do to Mahrin, he hasn't posted in ages.
Been busy, I'm trying to make more girl-games.  Haven't been playing that much, and other than the H74 SNAFU (we thought that if BoB had Sovereignty, only BoB could attack the station, turns out that it's only unattackable if sovereignty and ownership match) and some ongoing skirmishing down in that general vicinity with IAC, we aren't doing anything much.  I have no idea what's going on in 9-9, or with BoB in general.  FIX in in a rebuilding mode, we didn't take much of a break after the Q assault ended before we backed the MC attack in the north, so there's the usual round of wallet rebuilding, R&R, etc.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 07, 2007, 05:32:59 AM
and some ongoing skirmishing down in that general vicinity with IAC, we aren't doing anything much. 

Last night IAC and Brotherhood of Steel (BOS?) put some towers up in FIXs outpost station of 49-U on the qerious/Catch border. Apparently FIX didn't counter attack as of yet (thier scout was killed and the fleet backed off). Dunno if any towers got put into reinforced.

I was too tried to join in, so don't know anything beyond that. A FIX fleet came into Catch and got pounded today.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 07, 2007, 06:54:09 AM
Bob tried to counter in 9-9 last night.  They sent two titans, some caps, and abut 140 fleet members.  We drew first blood, and took out a bunch of T2 stuff like couple of command ships and the like).  Then we got bored and jumped in on their main fleet (whie outnumbered 3-2) but had to draw back almost at once when only about a quarter of us (of whom i was one) could load the grid.  It was a recklessly over-aggressive move and we lost quite a few battleships as a result, though it was fun to call primaries for a bit, and the two primaries I called went down so I am now a successful feleet commander  :-P ).  In a week's worth of fighting in 9-9 it was the first engagement I'd been in that we'd lost, so it was weird to see how little people cared: I was a bit "wtf?  but we always win!"  All the same, we'd already killed two carriers and almost popped a third by then.

That said, it was hilarious for those of us who had loaded the grid to see Shrike's reaction: he was in the POS and we were watching closely to see if he would come out and DD.  No such luck: he actually turned round and burrowed deeper into the POS bubble.

Anyway, we camped all the gates nearby, killed some crows and other inties who thought they could break through stupid T1 goonie campers, and nothing much altered.  Note that we have destroyed a ton of BoB POSes now, and as a result have sovereignty and a solid majority of POSes in the system.  Since I don't understand POS warfare any better than the average monkey, I have no idea if that's the last swap or if it will take 14 days to bed down with us, but I do know we're hoping for a counter: 9-9 is a beautiful meatgrinder, and one suggestion was that we rename the station the Stalingrad No.87 Red October Tractor Factory.

Edit:  It turns out Bob did want that system after all.  They jumped in a fairly big capital fleet, carrier-heavy, and started fighter-bombing our POS guns before putting them in reinforced.  Not many folks were around, so six guys in smartbombing BSes jumped on their fighter swarm:

About 65 dead fighters. (http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~stefan/sa/smartbomblol.jpg)  Only one of the suicide squad actually suicided: the other three got away just fine.  That's about a billion in fighters for the cost of 30 million in insurance gap and fittings.  The guy will no doubt make several times that in donations.  The PoS guns had killed about another 50 fighters by an hour ago.

The stront was well-timed, so it'll probably be an alarm-clock op for BoB.  This will be fun, even if I have to watch from work.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 08, 2007, 09:51:06 AM
Looks like we're making a definite go for 49-U: IAC has 1 POS, BOS has 10, vs FIX's 13.  The rumours of MC being hired to save FIX (well, one station, I very much doubt IAC+BOS can invade all of Qeroius without Goonswarms help, so FIX isn't going to die like ISS did) so far have not occurred.

FIX by themselves cannot hold onto 49-U, it's too close to IAC's bases in Catch, but if MC shows up they probably can. BoB is way too busy fighting in Stalingrad-in-Tenerfies to care about FIX losing 1 station on the border.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 08, 2007, 11:21:02 AM
The stront was well-timed, so it'll probably be an alarm-clock op for BoB.
Certainly looks like that's how it's going to happen - timing seems to work out as tomorrow morning European time.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 08, 2007, 03:47:46 PM
The situation reminds me of Bannockburn, where Edward Bruce (Robert's brother) forced a battle Robert didn't want by making a high-profile bet with the commander of Stirling Castle.  Bob, of course, might hope that they do just as well out of this as the Bruce did in the end, but it's a reckless gamble.  If they win, they're back to grinding pos warfare of the sort they've been hammered at for a week.  If they lose they take a vast hit to prestige.  Immense.  If they bring MC along then they look dependent on the "real" PvPers.

Anyway, I have to go to bed: don't want to miss this massive pew pew, no matter which way it goes, despite having work to go to partway through.  I have several drakes that must surely die for the swarm, and my current one has so far refused to die despite killing an Ares, 2 tempests, a claymore, a malediction, a eagle, a drake and a crow.  It'll learn the meaning of fiery death this time, I'm sure.  :-D  I suspect Bob will bring everything they have and win, which will hopefully mean another week of Stalingrad 9-9.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 08, 2007, 04:10:28 PM
It's either they bring everything, or they bring nothing and go and try to mess up something else while your all hungry and waiting for that BoB capital fleet to show up.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 09, 2007, 01:00:03 AM
Ooorrrr... and I don't mean to give anything away here, we foolishly jump into a Bob fleet hoping that lag and desynchs are somehow things of the past, and get emergency-warped, one-by-one, into the middle of the waiting Bob fleet.  Doh.

Sesfan got carried away (http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8427/fcguidemu8.png).

The annoying thing is that we were in the dominant position at that point, with them in 46 and us in 9-9, where they had to get to to get at our reinforced POSes. We turned up early and controlled the engagement.

Here's what Bob is seeing as a result. (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2sgsgsgsgsg065016ou8.jpg)

Edit: For those interested in such reportage, Bob proved that we do not have a monopoly on stupidity by blindly warping a sniper fleet into our fully-armed-and-operational battle station, where a full fleet and POS guns made short work of them.  On the downside (wth the emphasis on "downs"), CCP's software is proving as hilarious as ever, with POS guns shooting friendlies, lag, desynchs and more on all sides.

Edit: The balance continues to swing towards GF: Bob keep engaging at towers and being driven off with losses.  It looks like they'll fail to pop a single one of the towers they came for.  That is a massive strategic victory for GF+allies.  Bob brought everything, called an alarm-clock op for a Monday morning, with the intention of destroying our towers and driving us out of 9-9, and failed to destroy a single one (I think one is just being repped just now, but we're almost there).  We, on the other hand, blew up a ton of their towers in the same system last week.  The rest of our towers come out of reinforced tomorrow: let's see if they are ready to try again.

Another Edit: Possibly in an attempt to salvage something Bob jumped en masse to the last POS they could attack, which was being repped, and got beaten off with heavy losses to both them and their meatshield of the evening, Rise.  Several bubbles went up, and some ill-advised attempts to ctrl-Q only made things worse.

Final Edit:  Sesfan's Battle Report

Quote
BATTLE REPORT:

Textbook example of pos defense barring my extremely unfortunate decision to try to engage BoB in 46DP at the start. They warped in, we'd tackle, they'd warp out, we'd kill a few, rinse, wash repeat. At the very end they made a do or die effort, warped their entire fleet in, and just stayed there and didn't leave while we pounded on them. Only about 10 got out.

The major difference during this siege were the controllable pos guns which absolutely destroyed dozens of them from really far away which was amazing to watch... [opsec removed] ... All our poses were repped up and saved ... [opsec removed] ....

DO NOT GET COMPLACENT. We need to do this all again, same time tomorrow, same deal as today. The difference is I promise not to have anybody leave the system this time and no fuckups, pure rape all day long.

That being said: We weathered THE VERY BEST that BoB can do. Their entire offensive is failing miserably. They suck ass and all of EVE can see it. Short of calling in MC they have nothing left. I'm so fucking proud of you all right now, what a fantastic day.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 09, 2007, 07:04:06 AM
Oh God, that BoB fanfic in the RP CAOD-analogue makes me want to gouge out my own eyes with a rusty spork.  :cry:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 09, 2007, 08:01:04 AM
Oh God, that BoB fanfic in the RP CAOD-analogue makes me want to gouge out my own eyes with a rusty spork.  :cry:

What do you mean?!?  I think it's fan-slash-tastic. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=553378&page=1)

Quote
The BoB Hornets had come to destroy the hives.
But the Hornets had changed their plans.
Utterly outnumbered, as only hornets can be, they decided to leave the hives intact and went for the bees in their ships.

Ohnoes, if only they had gone four our, umm, hives (well, they did, four times, and got pounded each time.  But let's let that slide).

He's right about one bit, though, when he quotes Bonaparte:

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake"

Roll on tonight  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on July 09, 2007, 01:57:48 PM
Your battle reports and all sound impressive, but didn't you lose over five hundred ships in process of killing whole 46 Bobbites? 8-)
For 160 BoB gang in local of 600, I consider this quite an achievement.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Samprimary on July 09, 2007, 02:06:40 PM
Even though I have no interest in playing eve whatsoever, it sure is fun to read about.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 09, 2007, 02:33:02 PM
Your battle reports and all sound impressive, but didn't you lose over five hundred ships in process of killing whole 46 Bobbites? 8-)
For 160 BoB gang in local of 600, I consider this quite an achievement.

Well, we lost a lot of ships, for sure.  A lot.  Not quite as many as we lost when we killed LV, but same ballpark.  And it didn't help them too much, did it?

The fact is, you put our POSes into reinforced, just like we did to you last week.  Last week, we then killed yours when they came out of reinforced.  Today, you failed to kill a single one of ours.  Not one

You alarm-clocked your alliance and threatened to kick people who didn't show.  And it failed.  Now, I'm not saying that you might not do better tonight.  Hell, you might turn the whole thing around.  You might even bring along some of MC and give us a real fight.  But the fact is that last night you won one engagement - when we stupidly jumped after you into 46DP in laggy conditions.  Goons are dumb itt.  Other than that, you and Rise, Finfleet and the rest just fought and bled at the Red October Tractor Factory.

I keep having to explain the difference between tactics and strategy to you and LC, Joe.  Surely you get that if you turn up wanting and needing to kill POSes, and we turn up wanting to save them, and we save them all, that's what matters.  That's strategy.  That's why you got driven back from XGH.  That's why you lost 9-9.  We can afford to lose T1-fitted, insured battleships aaaalll day long.  And we will throw them away and laugh at the result (see the above flowchart).

I don't know if you noticed, but these are internet spaceships.  In-ter-net space-ships.  That means when you kill one, it doesn't die: it just gets up and comes back at you again.  We're a fucking zombie horde and you can't kill us.  You could have killed all five POSes last night and we'd still have just spent the week killing yours like we did all last week.  But you didn't.

PS = Since you really care about numbers for some reason, we didn't lose 500, and you didn't lose 46.  Or does it not count when Rise lose ships, or Finfleet, or all your other friends?  I count 32 of the oh-so-precious Greater Bob Community battleships lost to us, and I seem to remember 58 on Bob's KB by the end of the battle.  Two to one?!?  You can do better than that.  We lost 266 ships to LV once in a single engagement, without a single kill in return.  They were dead within a month.

Edit:  Come on LC, according to the "Who's Online" page you've been writing a response for 16 24 minutes...  :?


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 09, 2007, 03:02:46 PM
Edit:  Come on LC, according to the "Who's Online" page you've been writing a response for 16 minutes...  :?

I was going to write a response about lag, and how we laughed at "zergs" back in the day. Then I changed my mind.

I think everyone lost this morning. Goons will pretend that they don't care about their losses, but I know they have to be slightly frustrated.

Personally I enjoyed my slide show, and module lag.

Edit: I got the final blow on the dread that was popped, but I didn't get on the killmail. I really hate the limited size of killmails.

And I managed to stay alive for the whole fight.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 09, 2007, 03:16:07 PM
Edit:  Come on LC, according to the "Who's Online" page you've been writing a response for 16 minutes...  :?

I was going to write a response about lag, and how we laughed at "zergs" back in the day. Then I changed my mind.

I think everyone lost this morning. Goons will pretend that they don't care about their losses, but I know they have to be slightly frustrated.

Personally I enjoyed my slide show, and module lag.

Thoughtful response, LC, and it deserves a sensible reply.

I think that the two cap fleets were both frustrated, yes.  We have chatlogs from the BoB cap fleet which shows that they were bored at not being able to intervene, certainly.  And goon foot-soldiers were very frustrated by the decision to jump into 46-DP: we knew what was going to happen as a result, although it worked out worse than we thought.

But I promise you that by the end we were really, truly delighted by the outcome, other than General Brusilov, who whined incessantly about the 46-DP incident, and Moscroft, who had it in his head that some announcement would follow a win.

Our losses really don't matter: producer goons have been offering free replacements today for the bigger ships on production of a killmail, and the smaller stuff is free anyway: we make a profit when we die in insured corp handouts.  Folks were offering big bonuses - far more than the insurance and fittings cost - for people who would suicide BSes into the BoB fighter swarm last night (even though only one BS actualy died in the end in the fightercaust that resulted).

This is the gap between us, and why we so often talk past each other: Goons honestly don't care about losing ships. It's something to boast about.  The frustration about 46-DP really wasn't the losses, just that BoB would have something to divert attention on CAOD from the "bigger picture" of us saving all the POSes.  And, of course, the annoyance of not getting to fight til we got back into the system.

Edit:  I have no idea what that Russkie was doing with his dread: first he jumps to an enemy PoS: stupid, but doable.  Then he decides to go into siege?!?  But Russians know better than me about such things :itisamystery:.  Oh, and I stayed alive the whole night too, but only because I lag-warped out of the slaughter at 46-DP, black-screened for 15 minutes, and had to go to work.  I was amazed to find i was still alive when i got home.  Amazed and disappointed, since I am now on no killmails as being there, even my own...


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 09, 2007, 03:33:04 PM
This is the gap between us, and why we so often talk past each other: Goons honestly don't care about losing ships. It's something to boast about.  The frustration about 46-DP really wasn't the losses, just that BoB would have something to divert attention on CAOD from the "bigger picture" of us saving all the POSes.  And, of course, the annoyance of not getting to fight til we got back into the system.

Honestly, I don't see us being able to destroy any POSes until a faster way of removing the masses of lag producing frigates is found. I know we are working on some strategies, but I don't think we are ready to use them just yet. I also believe that we will need to bring in our allies to assist us. When considering how much help GS is receiving, I don't think there is a reason not to.

That russian guy was shooting at the warp scrambling battery I think. Maybe he was hoping nobody would notice him?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 09, 2007, 03:47:46 PM
Bob already bring in folks like Rise, Finfleet and the like, and I can see why you would view those as of limited usefulness.

The trouble with insisting on someone competent like MC coming in is the whole "omnipotence itself", "you are already dead" and "there are no goons" thing that Molle and DBP have been doing for a long time: it's a big admission.

Serious question: why do you think that Bob haven't been able (or willing) to kill our POSes in reply?  I mean, in Euro time - which is where I am - you have numbers advantages for several hours every day, so the lagswarm thing surely isn't such a huge issue?  100 goons in gang beat up BoB POSes while 80 Bob sit on the gate, but when there are 100 Bob and 80-odd of us in local at around 9-ish, we all just sit there in our camps and do nothing  :?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 09, 2007, 04:23:53 PM
Oh God, that BoB fanfic in the RP CAOD-analogue makes me want to gouge out my own eyes with a rusty spork.  :cry:

What do you mean?!?  I think it's fan-slash-tastic. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=553378&page=1)

Quote
The BoB Hornets had come to destroy the hives.
But the Hornets had changed their plans.
Utterly outnumbered, as only hornets can be, they decided to leave the hives intact and went for the bees in their ships.
Not exactly the best metaphor to use, though (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_gHD2B3qdc)
OHGOD, bees!


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 09, 2007, 04:28:51 PM
Serious question: why do you think that Bob haven't been able (or willing) to kill our POSes in reply?  I mean, in Euro time - which is where I am - you have numbers advantages for several hours every day, so the lagswarm thing surely isn't such a huge issue?  100 goons in gang beat up BoB POSes while 80 Bob sit on the gate, but when there are 100 Bob and 80-odd of us in local at around 9-ish, we all just sit there in our camps and do nothing  :?

Have any POSes come out of reinforced during euro time lately? I have been busy lately, and haven't been around a lot. (Preparing to possibly move to a new town.)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Drogo on July 09, 2007, 05:17:20 PM
I am really looking forward to reading about a giant fleet battle when BoB, RA, GS and the rest really bring out their capital fleets. A desync on one side or the other could really change the political landscape of EvE for months to come from one such battle, which is probably why it hasn't happened much since R2. I am also really curious to see what role MC plays in this fight. If they join BoB in the south they may be able to tip the fight to BoB's advantage and swing the pendulum the other way, but I wonder if they will not stay out of it in fear of losing their vaunted fleet in a massive desync? Regardless this is an interesting time for EvE, I just hope the winner in this war is not lag or desync, but the alliance that actually manages to have the best strategy, tactics, logistics, and determination to win. Either way it is great fun reading about this war.

Keep it up with the war reports.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on July 09, 2007, 06:20:30 PM
Lets hope CCP will fix the damn desync (it's not a real desync btw, just graphic bug) in next patch.

Also:
1) Goonies care about their internet spaceships game, just look a the ferocity they attacked CCP with.
2) Everyone comes back and in that sense no alliance truthly dies (as named entities they do -  but people stay). If it was otherwise, BoB would have no one but themselves to shot at  ;p
3) They do come in smaller ships though.
4) Real strategy is about keeping it up and surviving in a long term. We got our kills, you got the POSes. But how it's going to look tommorow? Or next week? Or next month? That's where the question lies.
5) LC sais both sides lost, I say both have won. Goonies got their short term strategic goal, BoB had a load of fun blowing them up.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 09, 2007, 11:31:32 PM
Tonight's battle has started. We are experiencing at least double the amount of lag from last night. I'm watching empty space while the goons fill local chat with racial slurs.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 09, 2007, 11:39:37 PM
So you're saying it's Tuesday then?  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 10, 2007, 01:38:41 AM
Half the POSes have been successfully repped already, about half left to defend.  Bob numbers are a little bit down on yesterday, although still enough to show they're under orders to be here.  The allies that got hammered hardest are down a bit more in numbers.  Goons, presumably all wanting to be in on a rerun, are a bit stronger than yeterday in numbers at the times I was on (I was doing local counts for the FC).

For those who are actually concerned with k/d ratios (and I hope you know my opinions on that by now), at the moment (8:22 eve time), Bob claim 9 battleships (ours and allies) on their killboard and we've posted 9 battleship kills on ours, six of them Bob's, so all square there.  Some of our heroic repping crews have been at work for 14 hours repairing and boosting modules and shields.  I'm now at work, but big donations to them when I get home.

Quote from: LC
Have any POSes come out of reinforced during euro time lately? I have been busy lately, and haven't been around a lot. (Preparing to possibly move to a new town.)

Goon POSes have been stront-timed to perfection, so no: they've all come out between 5 and 12 Eve time, which means late Goon or the start of RA prime.  Bob's logistics guys should be shot, as they've really let your side down badly: I don't know the total from last ten days, but I know that I was involved in just less than two dozen reinforcements and a smaller number of destructions, and they have been scattered all over the clock.  POS passwords haven't always been set and stront timing has been as short as a few hours sometimes. A good half dozen of Bob's towers have come out in BoB prime, and we got most of them: each time they've sat on a different POS and let it happen, with 2 or 3 sniping fly-bys.

A couple of Bob's logistics guys were better, and have stealth-onlined large towers while we were destroying others (you can rename a tower so that scanners make it look like it's a ship), though those were usually into reinforced within a few minutes of being online, but they kept the sov timer up for grabs for a few more days, so I suppose they had a strategic point.

Anyway, it's still ongoing and I imagine that, with titan support in-system and a cap-fleet waiting in the wings, we'll see Bob make a play at some point soon for one of the remaining towers.

Edit:  As foretold in prophecy, Bob turned up for a big push at the last POS needing repped (we've saved the other eight already).  They started badly, by putting up a wall of bubbles then promptly warping right into them, pinning themselves down.  The resulting fight has been going on for ten or fifteen minutes. For the last few months, Bob would simply have jumped in a titan and pressed the IWin button.  We can only dream that Shrike - who is lurking in a POS - would dare try that, now.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 10, 2007, 02:28:59 AM
Goons didn't bring many battleships tonight for some reason. I think I saw Evil Thug on a milk carton the other day.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 10, 2007, 02:46:04 AM
Goons didn't bring many battleships tonight for some reason. I think I saw Evil Thug on a milk carton the other day.

There were no orders to that effect, so I would imagine that it was a mixture of pragmatic elements.  Most of all, I suspect that goons simply picked up whatever was available, and we lost a lot of ships yesterday, so until the new, nearby outpost/refinery pair starts to crank up production one day was a short time to replace everything.  I see a bunch of stuff being built in place and convoyed in, though, so I imagine that'll no longer be an issue by tomorrow.

I notice that Rise hardly showed up at all, by the way.  Were they told to get lost like the incompetent fuck-ups that they are?  Or were you rotating allies (Red Moon Federation and Executive Outcomes today, Rise and Exec yesterday, for example)?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 10, 2007, 02:51:13 AM
Final outcome: Nine towers came out of reinforced today, and nine towers were repaired, recharged & refuelled. No further towers are currently in reinforced mode. Also, there was no lemming-like jump into the teeth of a gatecamp tonight so BoB didn't get to pad their K : D ratio with any more turkey-shoots.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 10, 2007, 03:10:52 AM
14-0 over two nights.  I never dreamt for a second that it would play out like this.  It's glorious.  I'm off to celebrate by trolling Eve-O.  :-D

Edit - 14-0, not 15-0: I can't add 9 and 5, apparently.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 10, 2007, 09:31:14 AM
While the eastern front continues to be all where all the big action is, the western-desert sideshow between IAC and FIX continues. Our attack to get sov in Qeruouis failed (I dont know why, I dont think there was a large fleet battle. We send fleets into their space, and they do ours, and both sides cause a few kills.

Edit: from the EvE-o thread (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=553635) it appers that IAC was sitting on the gate opposite FIX in equal numbers (with FIX being in sniper postions and hence the advantage) when a AAA fleet showed up, ignored IAC and went charging in like the ravanous barbarians they are. Large battle ends with IAC\/AAA holding the system and putting some more towers down.

Because of the long jump distance between IAC and AAA you don't get much cap ships involved, it's somewhat like EVE combat was before carriers and dreads showed up.

Need a name for the group attacking FIX, it's IAC, AAA, BOS, Someoneelse(MMA?) vs FIX with D-L showing up every now and then, but noy as part of the FIX fleet I think.

I was in a gang trying to hunt down a FIX sniper fleet in IAC space but we ended up not engaging because they had spooky powers that seemed to indicate a spy was in our gang. Ah well, both sides do it.


Where will BoB's stratagic reserve of MC be deployed? To help FIX (who need it if AAA keeps showing up) or to help BoB down in 9-9? AAA is working with IAC, but mostly with the intention on getting kills, not gain terriority for themselves, but could serve to counter MC. Conversly, would MC be willing to risk a cap fleet in the mass of de-syncs that are common these days?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vedi on July 10, 2007, 11:56:15 AM
If I was BoB, I'd have MC attack through the Great Wildlands pipe to Scalding Pass and put pressure on GoonSwarm from that side. That'd be the old -V- ground where F13 had a brief stint. GW has NPC stations, so logistics should be ok. It'd break off their main (I assume) Empire pipe and disturb their (I assume again) main moneymaking area. I'm not sure who hangs around in GW at the moment, but I think Clan of War might be there. They might attack anyone (including MC) for fun, but who knows.

I assume such a move would be anticipated by the goons though - it's not exactly strategic rocket science. Not sure what they'd do about it though. It's harder to keep an alliance morale up when people are fighting in the areas where you want to mine and make isk.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 10, 2007, 12:12:56 PM
Judging by BoB's tactics, I think they wrote off 9-9 awhile back -- their stront timings and such were too weird, and while they threw up more POS to put off the inevietable, I wonder if they're trying to bleed GS as much as possible.

BoB's outnumbered by GS/RA which normally means you fight defensively, when the odds favor you -- but with Titans, BoB could negate that numerical advantage. They can't anymore.

On the other hand, bleeding GS is hard -- they really don't care. And you can't make deep cuts into RA's moneytrain, either. So you're stuck with trying to get situations where you can bleed GS's relatively few (relative to BoB) well-equipped capitals, and avoid Swarms-o-Death.

The best you can do, really, is try to force GS fleets together into odd spots and try to handle them with smaller numbers, but superior ships.

I don't think BoB can take territory from GS now -- BoB has the dreads, but GS has the numbers to rep POS's and pop dreads with impunity. GS can simply launch a much bigger spoiler fleet than BoB.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Krakrok on July 10, 2007, 12:19:05 PM
I pretty much thought the same thing about a week ago but didn't want to say anything about it :P The eve alliance map already claims 'Interdiction vs the Southern Coalition' in GW. It claims Cult of War is with BoB so if they are already there... but it also shows them in Geminate against Smash & Roadkill.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vedi on July 10, 2007, 12:45:08 PM
It might be as simple as a summer lul. Perhaps the BoB and MC has decided that they rather wait a month or two until their leadership and members are back from vacations before starting anything new. If so, it gives the goons lots of time to lock down constellation sovereignty in Scalding Pass though.

It'll be cool to follow either way :D.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 10, 2007, 01:10:07 PM
The only problems with BoB asking MC to harass Scalding Pass are the following:
1) Hangs FIX out to dry completely. Probably wouldn't cause BoB too many sleepless nights to begin with, but having IAC/-A- on their NE borders might.
2) Puts MC capital ships in HOT DROP! range of both -A- and RA...which wouldn't make MC management happy at all.


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on July 10, 2007, 01:24:31 PM
I don't think CoW will be found in numbers in either the south or in Geminate any more.

All public info from MC states they are looking for a bit of PvE, a simple contract, and some time off from territorial warfare. I guess we'll see how true that proves. I wouldn't be surprised if RAZOR/MM/R0adkill/Smash or FATAL/M.Pire hires them up there in a few weeks, assuming someone in the new north can hold onto their systems long enough for it to matter.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 10, 2007, 01:27:35 PM
If the non-BoB half of the North hired MC to smash the BoB half of the North, I wouldn't stop laughing for hours.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 10, 2007, 02:22:49 PM
On the other hand, bleeding GS is hard -- they really don't care. And you can't make deep cuts into RA's moneytrain, either. So you're stuck with trying to get situations where you can bleed GS's relatively few (relative to BoB) well-equipped capitals, and avoid Swarms-o-Death.

Two problems with this: one is that a delaying action against the biggest alliance in the game who are openly encouraging as many members as possible to train for dreads is not a viable long-term strategy,  The other is that despite GF's much-vaunted poverty we do not have any shortage of money when it comes to our dread program.  I can't say why, because I've not seen it discussed on SHC or elsewhere yet, but we recently had a thread that shows that we have a superfluosity of dread-building capacity and capability.

As regards Bob having already given up on 9-9 a while ago, I just don't see it.  They were, only 2 weeks ago, spamming it with POSes and already attacking their next target, in Detorid.  We countered 9-9, they panicked, split their forces, and took a pounding.  Then they withdrew to Tenerifis, and threw huge fleets (120 or so every night) at stopping our reductions of their POSes.  Honestly, almost every night I would log in at 7 and be on til three, fighting running battles each evening until we would trap them at a gate or aligning at a POS, inflict losses then get the rest of the night free to reinforce or destroy POSes.  It was tough going, sure: I ended up with an ulcer on my cornea* from scratching it playing hockey on my "evening off" then wearing contacts for 18 or 19 hours every night and stopping it healing.  And I never catass games any more.  But it was such fun getting to win every night instead of the Titan guaranteed loss in every battle that I didn't want to stop.

I think a major difference is that almost all of GF actually plays Eve.  A huge number of Bob members log in for ops: they sit on IM or check the forums, get the call-up, log in and fight, then log off.  That's fine, but it leaves the emphasis on far fewer people to do the unglamourous stuff like gun-repping, shieldboosting and POS-fuelling.  I think that's why stront times have been shoddy, guns easily disabled, and passwords not set.

Another sign has been that fittings that we've looted - and we've looted a lot now that we so often control the battlefield - have been far worse.  Stuff like Gistii has given way first to T2, then to best-named, and eventually straight T1 stuff.  The last two mornings were a bit of an exception: you could tell Bob were making an effort, because the fittings were a bit better again.  Just as well: we were getting used to the extra income  :-D

Other than that, Morat, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with your analysis.

-----

*This is embarassing, and considerably less fun than it sounds, requiring several hours in a hospital.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 10, 2007, 02:54:15 PM
Another sign has been that fittings that we've looted - and we've looted a lot now that we so often control the battlefield - have been far worse.  Stuff like Gistii has given way first to T2, then to best-named, and eventually straight T1 stuff.  The last two mornings were a bit of an exception: you could tell Bob were making an effort, because the fittings were a bit better again.  Just as well: we were getting used to the extra income  :-D

Other than that, Morat, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with your analysis.

-----

*This is embarassing, and considerably less fun than it sounds, requiring several hours in a hospital.
Well, given the situation -- they were putting up a fight for 9-9 when the Titan-nerf happened. That fucked their long-term strategy, but they continued fighting for 9-9 thinking they could take it. Goons numbers, in the lack of Titan support (and the loss of a BoB Titan), started ass-raping them. So they flailed about in 9-9.

I think, judging by the tactics I've seen, that they gave up on 9-9 but figured they taking pot-shots at it and keeping it in flux would concentrate Goons in ways that that allow them to bleed your ships -- which would explain flying cheaper ships, among other things.

As I said -- Goonswarm doesn't care about losses, but if they're going to lose 9-9, trying to take down significant numbers of ships in the process is at least something.

I think the nut of the whole affair is that when the Titan nerf came through, BoB was over-extended and lost their best weapon against Goon numerical superiority. What I suspect is happening right now is BoB members are looking hard at the new Stealth bombers (the supposed new "anti-blob" tactic) and thinking to outfit pilots. (I believe some Goons used a nice strike to obliterate fighter coverage during a BoB attack).

I expect BoB to fall back a bit and reinforce, and attempt to come up with tactics to replace their Titans. Simultaneous bomber strikes to Goon blobs seems a possibility, and some of what was happening in 9-9 appeared to be BoB trying to position Goon forces (probably not for a bomber strike, but as a test). Of course, I'm relying on third-hand reports from dubious sources.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 10, 2007, 03:16:19 PM
Yep. the stealth bombers are supposedly anti-blob.  The trouble is that, while we have a fair number of pilots training in them ourselves - stupid ships do attract goons - their usefulness is limited by cost.  They take as long as a doomsday to go off, and cost 15 million per bomb.  That means you have to somehow take out 25-30 uninsured T1 frigates fitted (for goons) rather pricily to break even on the deal.  Lord knows how you get close enough to such a swarm without decloaking.  Maybe confusion of battle is the idea.  If the frigates are moving - rather likely - then you'll find it hard to take them out.  Lord knows how you'd do with a speeding dictor or inty.

Fighters may be a different issue.  But we found a better way to wipe out the entire Bob fighter blob.

This is just my view: I know that both sides have people committed to making them work.  I may very well be completely wrong.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 10, 2007, 03:26:49 PM
Yep. the stealth bombers are supposedly anti-blob.  The trouble is that, while we have a fair number of pilots training in them ourselves - stupid ships do attract goons - their usefulness is limited by cost.  They take as long as a doomsday to go off, and cost 15 million per bomb.  That means you have to somehow take out 25-30 uninsured T1 frigates fitted (for goons) rather pricily to break even on the deal.  Lord knows how you get close enough to such a swarm without decloaking.  Maybe confusion of battle is the idea.  If the frigates are moving - rather likely - then you'll find it hard to take them out.  Lord knows how you'd do with a speeding dictor or inty.

Fighters may be a different issue.  But we found a better way to wipe out the entire Bob fighter blob.

This is just my view: I know that both sides have people committed to making them work.  I may very well be completely wrong.

I was thinking more multiple bombs as a starter -- if your opponent is starting with part of his shields or armor blown, that's a big advantage. Getting them together is tougher -- but I note BoB was apparently dropping warp bubbles in odd places.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 10, 2007, 04:34:08 PM
It might be as simple as a summer lul. Perhaps the BoB and MC has decided that they rather wait a month or two until their leadership and members are back from vacations before starting anything new. If so, it gives the goons lots of time to lock down constellation sovereignty in Scalding Pass though.

It'll be cool to follow either way :D.

Or it could be that a large number of BoB left last week to attend SirMolle's RL Gathering/BBQ. Most of them wont be back till next week.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 10, 2007, 08:44:24 PM
Or it could be that a large number of BoB left last week to attend SirMolle's RL Gathering/BBQ. Most of them wont be back till next week.
Or, you know, all of the above. The Titan nerfing fucked BoB pretty hard -- they really are overextended and their tactics are in flux. I think they're trying to work out new anti-blob and POS tactics, whereas Goons are mostly falling back on the "We have four times more people than you" tactic which is pretty straightforward. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 11, 2007, 02:09:13 AM
Or it could be that a large number of BoB left last week to attend SirMolle's RL Gathering/BBQ. Most of them wont be back till next week.
Or, you know, all of the above. The Titan nerfing fucked BoB pretty hard -- they really are overextended and their tactics are in flux. I think they're trying to work out new anti-blob and POS tactics, whereas Goons are mostly falling back on the "We have four times more people than you" tactic which is pretty straightforward. :)

This is perhaps a little unfair.  The "more people" thing is in US prime (and Russian prime for big events).  In euro prime Bob outnumbers us every night for several hours.  The reason that we've been such delighted little goonies is that most of last week's battles around gates and POSes in 9-9 happened between fleets of roughly equal proportions: usually 80-90 Bob and 100-110 Goons.

Bob still undoubtedly handle laggy fleet battles better than us: they are better at knowing when to save their ships, and are better at acting autonomously than a lot of goons, many of whom are very new to Eve, let alone to big fights.  If Tolon says "align on x", we'll still have three or four people each time who end up warping accidentally, but ten days ago that was likely to be 7 or 8 each time.  You'll see people in BSes on our killmails who really shouldn't have been firing on close-in tacklers, but that's getting better, too.   With titans, running fleet battles have been pretty rare for a while now, and people like myself are just being blooded at the moment.  We'll improve quickly, just because we're still learning the easy lessons.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 11, 2007, 07:18:57 AM
Or it could be that a large number of BoB left last week to attend SirMolle's RL Gathering/BBQ. Most of them wont be back till next week.


Whoaaaa, I just spotted the dates involved here on SHC.

You are seriously presenting, for the loss of 9-9, the excuse that a significant amount of your alliance was already away to attend Molle's barbeque?

Molle's barbeque on Friday the 20th until Saturday 21st of July?  A date that is still nine days away now?

Bob, just to be sure I read you right, has lost 9-9, despite their biggest ever turnout in the war against us, two nights running, because a high percentage of your alliance left last week, 2 weeks in advance of an overnight barbeque?  And they won't be back til next week (by which I take it you mean the week after next)?  Over a fortnight?  In an alliance of over 3000 members, just how many of them have taken this 2-week+ Danish break for an evening of burgers?

This is getting posted to GF's forums: it's possibly the most inventive excuse yet.

Plus, we know it's crap: some of the wang guys in particular have been doing killmail analysis, and we know your numbers.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 11, 2007, 07:37:16 AM
Or it could be that a large number of BoB left last week to attend SirMolle's RL Gathering/BBQ. Most of them wont be back till next week.


Whoaaaa, I just spotted the dates involved here on SHC.

You are seriously presenting, for the loss of 9-9, the excuse that a significant amount of your alliance was already away to attend Molle's barbeque?

Molle's barbeque on Friday the 20th until Saturday 21st of July?  A date that is still nine days away now?

Bob, just to be sure I read you right, has lost 9-9, despite their biggest ever turnout in the war against us, two nights running, because a high percentage of your alliance left last week, 2 weeks in advance of an overnight barbeque?  And they won't be back til next week (by which I take it you mean the week after next)?  Over a fortnight?  In an alliance of over 3000 members, just how many of them have taken this 2-week+ Danish break for an evening of burgers?

This is getting posted to GF's forums: it's possibly the most inventive excuse yet.

Plus, we know it's crap: some of the wang guys in particular have been doing killmail analysis, and we know your numbers.

Not sure when it is, but there were several "Gone to BBQ see you when I get back" posts. The bbq is only open to the general community on those dates. It actually lasts a whole week I think.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 11, 2007, 11:21:01 AM
True story from 9-9:

Logged in earlier to change some skills in 9-9. KIATolon was busy talking shit in local. He called us cowards for not coming to fight him. His group arrived at the 5-1 pos and started idling about 350km out. A few minutes later a group of BoB landed right on top of them. A bubble was dropped and about 5 goons got popped. Most of the goons (including KIATolon) made it out of the bubble and warped away. A minute later he was whining about our "blob" in local, and how BoB won't fight when the numbers are even. The sides looked pretty even in size to me though. Goons continued with their normal racial slurs and whines as I logged out.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 11, 2007, 12:19:26 PM
Yep.  Tolon's ability to prod Bob into annoyance is one of the many reasons GF own 9-9 and Bob lost it.

If you watch local then, let's be frank, you get what you deserve.  And I mean that quite literally.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 11, 2007, 01:27:26 PM
Or it could be that a large number of BoB left last week to attend SirMolle's RL Gathering/BBQ. Most of them wont be back till next week.


Whoaaaa, I just spotted the dates involved here on SHC.

You are seriously presenting, for the loss of 9-9, the excuse that a significant amount of your alliance was already away to attend Molle's barbeque?

Molle's barbeque on Friday the 20th until Saturday 21st of July?  A date that is still nine days away now?

Bob, just to be sure I read you right, has lost 9-9, despite their biggest ever turnout in the war against us, two nights running, because a high percentage of your alliance left last week, 2 weeks in advance of an overnight barbeque?  And they won't be back til next week (by which I take it you mean the week after next)?  Over a fortnight?  In an alliance of over 3000 members, just how many of them have taken this 2-week+ Danish break for an evening of burgers?


Clearly at least 30% of BoB are Amish and hence shun modern fast methods of transportation to said event.


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on July 11, 2007, 01:43:12 PM
Hence the pets, galleys need to be manned to reach the overseas barbecues!

Other than that, we have motivated enemies in a perpetual war, we are blessed indeed.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on July 11, 2007, 03:06:21 PM
Yep.  Tolon's ability to prod Bob into annoyance is one of the many reasons GF own 9-9 and Bob lost it.

Really? I thought the reason was POS spamming while BoB was sleeping.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 11, 2007, 03:25:14 PM
Not sure when it is, but there were several "Gone to BBQ see you when I get back" posts. The bbq is only open to the general community on those dates. It actually lasts a whole week I think.
*hands LC a shovel*

...let's be frank...
Heh. So tempting.  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 11, 2007, 03:52:56 PM
Yep.  Tolon's ability to prod Bob into annoyance is one of the many reasons GF own 9-9 and Bob lost it.

Really? I thought the reason was POS spamming while BoB was sleeping.

Here's a funny thing - I think you'll like it - but (this is the good bit, trust me)... neither side could POS spam!  Crazy, huh?!?  This is on the same level as your "we lost 9-9 because we're having a three-week lunch break" analysis.

Every moon was occupied by a POS.  Every one.  Why?  Because Bob got 9-9 by POS spamming every unoccupied moon before the patch limited alliances to 5 towers a day.  So, at the risk of seeming patronising, that means that neither side could POS spam, as there was nowhere left to spam.  You fail at POS warfare 101.

Either side that wanted the system had to reinforce and kill the other side's POSes.  You do understand what I'm saying here, yes?  Bob and GF spent all of last week trying to kill each others' POSes.  We blew up a string of them.  Bob managed to destroy (let me count it one more time to make sure I got this right) zero.

OK, you've tried "we had our mouths full of burger and couldn't politely converse on teamspeak", you've tried "GF have more money than poor BoB and kept creating extra celestial bodies to spam POSes at".  What next?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 11, 2007, 04:10:52 PM
Yep.  Tolon's ability to prod Bob into annoyance is one of the many reasons GF own 9-9 and Bob lost it.

Really? I thought the reason was POS spamming while BoB was sleeping.

I much prefer pvp games to pve, you just don't get the same depth of interaction.  I'm going to make a couple of comments here that will probably go over your head LC but don't worry I'm not expecting much from you.

The attraction of an open pvp game to me is the lack of rules.  In Eve it appears you can pretty much do and say whatever you want to someone outside of Empire space.  I like that.  There's a large section of the Eve playerbase that appear to like the open pvp nature of the game but invent their own "rules" of acceptable behaviour, such as.

No Pos spamming, no logon traps, no scamming, no racist language, no admitting that an alliance (other than your own) is wonderful beyond belief, sexual explicit language is allowed but even that has a limit.  A fight isn't fair if one side has more ships, not only is it not fair but the extra ships weren't there for added firepower but clearly just to create lag, words like respect and honour are thrown around constantly as if they actually mean something.  When a 1 on 1 duel is accepted, it's bad form to have 12 friends help you destroy and loot your enemy, spying, corporation theft and sabotage are not good things.

I fully understand all that, I like the freedom of playing with people like the goons who realise the above is complete crap. 

Taking the pos spamming as an example you should know that BoB have previously said they don't pos spam.  You also probably know when 9-9 fell to BoB, it was because they pos spammed the system.  The game mechanic is, you get ownership of a system if you have more large control towers than the other guy, so it's borderline retarded to not raise more towers if you are behind in the count.  Especially if the system is important, you just raise more towers, no matter what the imaginary acceptable limit is based on the herd mentality of eve-o.  All that's ignoring the fact that about 20 BoB towers were put into reinforced and then destroyed just to have room to do it, but again you probably already knew that.

Goons poking fun at BoB for pos spamming is not because most of them believe you shouldn't pos spam, it's because BoB have previously imposed a rule on themselves by saying they don't do it and then broke their own rule.  That's funny, maybe not hilarious but it's at least slightly amusing.

The racist language you are so concerned about is being used (mostly I guess) because it annoys your alliance, there might be some racist goons, but it's very difficult to tell when goons troll each other and everyone else for a reaction.

Edit typos.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Trouble on July 12, 2007, 12:44:03 AM
Playing to Win: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm


Title: Re: War
Post by: Megrim on July 12, 2007, 01:31:43 AM
Man, if only i had a dollar for every time that poor article got trotted out when someone mentiones 'fair play' in a discussion about games.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 12, 2007, 05:07:37 PM
Man it got quiet in here. This just came across the wire.

RISE, for those not in the know, are one of BoB's vassal/tenant alliances in Feythabolis, a region between BoB's core and the RedSwarm regions. Not known for amazing competence, either.

Shortly after the last patch, they realize that about 1.2 billion isk worth of BPOs have suddenly disappeared. Must be a bug, right? They petition.

The GMs inform them that the BPOs are in the hands of another character and that they've been the victims of corp theft.

Denial mode, activate! (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=554674) They post an Eve-O thread about how the buggy patch ate their BPOs and they want them back. The petition is escalated and the guy who owned the BPOs states that he's considering quitting RISE since it took him "over a year" to save up to buy them:

Quote from: Some dude
2007.07.12 02:34
I sent the GM a reply to this, but I bet we will never see those again. I will post on Wyehr's thread. And, as much as I like you guys, I think I should also start looking for a new corp. I can't game with someone who would steal the biggest fucking asset I had, which took me a year of saving to buy.

The GMs respond again, definitively stating that they've been victims of corptheft. Laughter, on everyone else's part, ensues.

I'll give you three guesses as to which corporation currently owns them, by the way. :)

Edit: Looks like the link I gave isn't the original post. I'm not going digging through eve-o for the real one though. Oh well.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Kamen on July 13, 2007, 07:04:16 AM
Not to derail your all to quiet war thread but I have a question for you Goons:

One of my characters is a pretty uber PvPer.  He was approached out of the blue last week by a Goon inside the game regarding joining up.  I responded "no thanks", closed the chat, and never thought anything of it until I saw a post recently by a Goon director saying they only recruit out of game.  True?  Was I going to offered the wonderful opportunity to pay 307 gazillion isk to be allowed to join the Goonies?

I'm not offended at somebody trying to scam me mind you, I doubt they could, and I certainly would never pay anyone for the high honor of joining their corp, I'm only asking because the character would be a pretty desirable asset to most PvP corps and if the 'we only recruit out of game" policy is 100% true or not.  I mean really, if one of the big guns of the game were to say "hey, I want to join up" the Goon response would be "sorry, we don't recruit in game"?  Doesn't sound very believeable TBH.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on July 13, 2007, 07:18:34 AM
No shit, we need some drama quick... your (not-so)silent observers demand more pewpew!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Megrim on July 13, 2007, 07:30:26 AM
Not to derail your all to quiet war thread but I have a question for you Goons:

One of my characters is a pretty uber PvPer.  He was approached out of the blue last week by a Goon inside the game regarding joining up.  I responded "no thanks", closed the chat, and never thought anything of it until I saw a post recently by a Goon director saying they only recruit out of game.  True?  Was I going to offered the wonderful opportunity to pay 307 gazillion isk to be allowed to join the Goonies?

I'm not offended at somebody trying to scam me mind you, I doubt they could, and I certainly would never pay anyone for the high honor of joining their corp, I'm only asking because the character would be a pretty desirable asset to most PvP corps and if the 'we only recruit out of game" policy is 100% true or not.  I mean really, if one of the big guns of the game were to say "hey, I want to join up" the Goon response would be "sorry, we don't recruit in game"?  Doesn't sound very believeable TBH.

It's not unusual. A friend of mine (Flinky on these boards) was approached by a Goonfleet guy irl at an internet cafe and asked to join Goonfleet. We had a good laugh about it.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 13, 2007, 09:24:59 AM
The Goonfleet recruitment policy is thus: You must either be a member of the SA forums (with some posts under your belt) or a friend of a Goonfleet member who meets the prior requirement and is willing to risk his own membership to vouch for you. You can then apply and get admitted to the Fleet. It costs you or your sponsor absolutely nothing.

If someone was approaching you completely out of the blue, the most likely scenario is a scam attempt. It's fairly common given the number of wealthy and overly-trusting empire folks who'd love to join a large alliance with decent 0.0 space to play in.

The various other corps in Goonswarm (the alliance), e.g. Duragon Pioneer Group, Darkstar One, etc., may have different recruitment policies. DS1 is known to be a big capship corp, so if you're an advanced PVPer, they could conceivably try to recruit you - but I'm not familiar with their actual policy.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on July 14, 2007, 12:49:25 PM
BoB is off to BBQ, so prepare for week long no-drama period. Unless ofc GS do something fun/silly like attacking RA or empire.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 14, 2007, 12:54:35 PM
Does -A- officially declaring war on FIX count?  :-P


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 14, 2007, 01:08:26 PM
BoB is off to BBQ, so prepare for week long no-drama period. Unless ofc GS do something fun/silly like attacking RA or empire.


You can't fool us!  LC let slip that most of BoB left for the barbeque weeks ago.

More seriously, if the ratio of laptops and wireless connections to humans at this BBQ is not enough to let Bob's attendees launch a major attack with everyone dualboxing I shall be heartily surprised and rather disappointed.  And Rise will be gutted.  In more ways than one.


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on July 14, 2007, 02:20:23 PM
Quote
if the ratio of laptops and wireless connections to humans at this BBQ is not enough to let Bob's attendees launch a major attack with everyone dualboxing I shall be heartily surprised and rather disappointed

hmm, http://www.vangit.dk/tits.jpg (http://www.vangit.dk/tits.jpg)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 14, 2007, 03:23:08 PM
Quote
if the ratio of laptops and wireless connections to humans at this BBQ is not enough to let Bob's attendees launch a major attack with everyone dualboxing I shall be heartily surprised and rather disappointed

hmm, http://www.vangit.dk/tits.jpg (http://www.vangit.dk/tits.jpg)

Ack, a week with a 250:1 computer/nerd ratio?  Oh noes, our c/n ratio!

Were you there last year?  And is the open invitation bit a new thing?  Quite a few goons from eurosquad are going this time, and thoroughly expect to get hot-dropped.  I would have gone, but I have a hand-in for my masters on the Friday.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 14, 2007, 08:05:18 PM
Does -A- officially declaring war on FIX count?  :-P

What? Where? SInce the SHC war thread got deleted for another week I miss this stuff.

Also, IAC lost an outpost egg, possible to bug (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=556749). I wasn't there, but something happened to stop it becoming an outpost after downtime. MC shows up after outbreak finds out and kaboom.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 14, 2007, 08:48:59 PM
Does -A- officially declaring war on FIX count?  :-P

What? Where? SInce the SHC war thread got deleted for another week I miss this stuff.

Also, IAC lost an outpost egg, possible to bug (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=556749). I wasn't there, but something happened to stop it becoming an outpost after downtime. MC shows up after outbreak finds out and kaboom.
On page 3 of that thread, Tyraxx admits the egg wasn't properly filled, but claims that a bug caused some of the filler to disappear out of storage before they went to put up the outpost (since all of the people who had access claim there's no way they could have miscounted, misplaced, or deliberately shorted the supplies).  Somehow, I don't think this egg is getting reimbursed.  Just speaking for myself, when my corp deployed our egg, we had 3 different people count *everything* right before I anchored the egg and we started loading freighters.

AAA attacked ED- around downtime and reinforced a couple of POS, then saw the shadow of MC's capital fleet and went back to Empire (or possibly it was just an unsuccessful diversion).  IAC, BOS, AAA, and other hangers-on claim that FIX calling for reinforcements when outnumbered by only 3 or 4 to 1 is proof of our lack of competence.  FIX replies by fanning our right hand, sticking our thumb to our nose, and going "Phhhhhbbbtttt".  At least we no longer have the distinction of being the only alliance ever to have an egg blown up.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on July 15, 2007, 01:00:33 AM
Yes, this is the first time there is an invitational at the bobbique.
We figured the worst thing that can happen is a heated eve politics debate between two drunk internet spaceship nerds until one starts crying and wants to go home.
The turnout is quite a bit larger than initially expected but if everybody has send their who/when/where mail the logistics guys should be able to handle it.
(Just to be on the safe side, we have warned the local authorities about what to do, should they run into an extraordinary large amount of people milling around the same place, yelling fofofo)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 15, 2007, 02:04:15 AM
As a GF member, personally I'd be extremely suspicious if I turned up and there was only one RKK guy standing there, 400 yards off the door with a walkie-talkie, who sprinted off as soon as I went to speak to him.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 15, 2007, 03:51:29 AM
AAA attacked ED- around downtime and reinforced a couple of POS, then saw the shadow of MC's capital fleet and went back to Empire (or possibly it was just an unsuccessful diversion).

Why is MC helping someone...for free? I thought they only worked if they got paid. I guess it's possible MC has been hired to "protect" FIX from the Catch front, but it seems a bit strange they would only work on defensive operations. Doesn't seem to be MC's style.

Quote
IAC, BOS, AAA, and other hangers-on claim that FIX calling for reinforcements when outnumbered by only 3 or 4 to 1 is proof of our lack of competence.


Up until the point where Uncle BoB gets tired of having to bail FIX out (see Xelas, and the death of an alliance in 2 days). It would be interesting to know, if MC is getting paid to defend FIX, is BoB the employer?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 15, 2007, 04:48:18 AM
The trouble with MC helping FIX is that they're then not (directly) helping BoB.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 16, 2007, 01:03:01 PM
AAA killed a FIX Cap shipyard. The IAC fleet I was scouting for in my first co-vert op mission didn't see anything defending it (we just stood around watching the gate while the AAA fleet killed the POS).

On the way back we trapped a 40man FIX fleet up the creek, but badly timed tacklers meant they were able to escape our assaults.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 16, 2007, 01:30:34 PM
Let's just say that somebody just got an expensive lesson in why you can't solo Eve.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on July 16, 2007, 01:36:42 PM
The trouble with MC helping FIX is that they're then not (directly) helping BoB.

Meatshielding isnt helping?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 16, 2007, 02:26:28 PM
IAC/-A- is fighting FIX/MC (and blowing up ftal owner-funded motherships), while TCF is fighting RISE & RA/GS is fighting BoB....well, when BoB turn up, anyway. :)
Not much meatshielding possible there, really.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vedi on July 16, 2007, 02:49:22 PM
Let's just say that somebody just got an expensive lesson in why you can't solo Eve.

Someone set up their own private cap yard? :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 16, 2007, 04:17:31 PM
Quote
Jovius Marginus
Black Avatar
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2007.07.16 20:49:00 - [1] - Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure how many people will care but I know MS losses are pretty big so Ill take a page from BOB and go ahead and post the details of the loss.

Today as a part of a larger assault -A- killed a supercap building POS in FIX space that was 7 days from a Nyx. The POS, all components, and BPC were all personally funded by me. For the most part FIX had very little knowledge or involvement. Made a lot of mistakes setting it up and keeping it secure so the loss was mainly my fault. Didn't get to see the take down but heard it was -A- so good kill to you guys.

Obviously its tough to take a loss of roughly 20b ISK and a months work but ISK is always replaceable. Also my advice to anyone planning to solo build an MS, don't its way too much of a PITA. Just spend 40b and buy one.
He was building it solo, and nobody in FIX even knew it existed or was in reinforced until 37 minutes before it came out.  Not much time to scare up a defense force. 

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 16, 2007, 04:48:54 PM
IAC loses an egg due to not feeding it enough (for whatever reason), FIX* 'loses' a Nyx due to J Random Idiot thinking he can solo-build a supercap with nobody noticing**
Honours about even?  :wink:

*Yes, I know - wasn't FIX's fault...hence the quote marks.
**Tip of the day: If anyone was planning on trying stealth-buildling like this, putting a "WTB Nyx BPC" thread (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=6251) up on SHC is probably not the smartest thing to do.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on July 16, 2007, 05:23:12 PM
I was thinking about something like that once, buy key part of the plan would involve installing an alt in enemy alliance and using it as a builder.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 16, 2007, 07:21:12 PM
Then your own alliance can accidentally explode your own capital?  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 17, 2007, 12:54:30 AM
Then your own alliance can accidentally explode your own capital?  :-D

I think Joe is in Bob.  Bob's directorate level is less penetrated by spies than most, so he could tell his directors.  You're probably not going to get much of a dread fleet together to go into hostile territory in Bob without the directors having a say.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 19, 2007, 04:25:52 AM
IAC and BOS gangs reinforced 2 more FIX towers on the Querious border in 49-U and killed 1.75 BoB POS's in southern Querious in H75 Neither FIX nor BoB put in an appence.

The BoB towers being offline in a station system, though unpopulated and underused, is a development. There are reports of a half dozen BoB towers offline in various places. Unlike the last BoB POS attack I was on, these towers weren't in an out of the way place.

BoB is having problems refueling them, or at most, dosn't care enough to remove the tower along with the guns.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 19, 2007, 05:41:12 AM
TCF did something similar in Omist yesterday - a couple of outpost/station systems which used to belong to a couple of BoB ex-pets had nobody claiming sovereignty any more. So TCF did their usual POS-ninja techniques and they'll flip the stations once their claim works through.

Oh, and RISE lost a carrier due to PvP Ravens: Carrier was getting pounded by a RA/GS/TCF/et al. fleet and managed to just make it into a POS with a sliver of structure left. Funny quirk in the EVE code: POS shields don't work on projectiles already in flight. The final volley of torpedoes slam home though the POS shields, and the carrier went bang. ZOMG devhax etc. :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 19, 2007, 06:14:09 AM
And people usually bitch about the missile travel time!  :-)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 19, 2007, 07:17:02 AM
Comstar is being a little bashful about what IAC have been up to: Tyrrax has posted an update on the GF forums and it makes interesting reading (available to all spies for the low price of ten dollars).  What I like best, though, is the chatlog porn.  They're under orders not to engage, but are conifdent that Bob and MC will be there to save them soon:

Quote
[ 2007.07.19 03:02:58 ] Lucius Tyndale > boo
[ 2007.07.19 03:03:01 ] Lucius Tyndale >
[ 2007.07.19 03:03:02 ] Potato Judge > omw
[ 2007.07.19 03:03:09 ] Lucius Tyndale > u wanna play?
[ 2007.07.19 03:03:14 ] Potato Judge > thats what im here for
[ 2007.07.19 03:03:54 ] Arott > DOnt fight them thell et bored// not like they can really take ED even if they wanted too....
[ 2007.07.19 03:04:08 ] Arott > BOB would just coem beat the shit otu of em and they know it...
[ 2007.07.19 03:04:15 ] Travis Musgrat > and mc
[ 2007.07.19 03:04:40 ] Arott > yup 8)

As has been pointed out, that tactic worked real well for LV.  What strikes me about this, though, is that these people are allowed to speak in local, let alone be members of their alliance.  Grammar and spelling like that in GF would make you the target of constant hilarity until you either learned basic literacy or left.

Here's the tattle-tales of a certain ex-solo-Mothership builder, who is to be read with the caution due to the bitterly bereaved ex-member, I admit:

Quote
[21:26:32] Jovius Marginus > fyi current orders in FIX are to bore then and wait for BOB
[21:26:11] Jovius Marginus > meh FIX have gone way way down
[21:26:19] Jovius Marginus > anyone good went to OB or somewhere else
[21:27:12] Jovius Marginus > we actually have people whining about BOB taking too long



Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 19, 2007, 09:42:09 AM
We killed the 2nd BoB POS. Apperntly they were setting it up while we had a fleet in system, and someone noticed. Bad idea BoB.

FIX Comedy: They turned on the Jumpgate jammer AFTER our dreads entered 49-U. So it also died when we put the 2 towers into refinforced.

Also that intel from Tyraxx he hasn't posted on the IAC boards  :nda:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 21, 2007, 10:36:08 AM
The 49-U offensive continues. We've put the wav jammer into off mode again, and constant engament with the FIX fleet, though I'd say we have had the upper hand. No mass destruction that I've seen, just 1-2 ships killed at a time.

I got killed by the POS: note to self, don't hang around looting the dead while the big guns duke it out. Scratch one 8k/s inty. Oh well, got on a few kill mails.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 24, 2007, 01:57:07 AM
In their do-or-die ops a couple of weeks ago, BoB told us all that you can either take down a PoS, or you can fight a fleet action, but never both.  That would be stupid.

So Goons, being stupid, with ADD and self-diagnosed Aspergers to a man, did both last night.  Bob turned up with a fleet in 46DP.  We were stymied for a while by the servers crashing (nothing to do with our stuff, apparently) which prevented the first half of our planned awesomeness going ahead. There was a, however, a second op, which led to a fight in 46, moving later into 9-9.  I know that BoB like k/d ratios, so as of 1am, the killmails posted were:

Bob+pets dead/Goon+allies dead

bs 22 / 3
frig 2 / 10
inty 12 / 7
hac 8 / 0
recon 1 / 0
dictor 1 /1
destro 0 / 1

Obviously, we are rueing the throwing away of 10 frigates and a destroyer, even if we did exact some sort of vengeance in hacs, battleships and a recon.*

Note that our idiotic FCs' e-honor made us wait until BoB got back from their BBQ before starting this stuff again, which a lot of us think was dumb.

Then we went and destroyed their large PoS (http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=370578).

--------------

*Kill/death ratios are still stupid.  They only hurt you if you measure your every achievement by them.

--------------

Edit:  Oooohhh, there was a deeper point!  Us foot soldiers know nothing: first to go, last to know (literally the case for me on Friday's cow art op).  Bob would have been able to stick a cyno-jammer in 46 in a few days and play invulnerable supercap games: no wonder they were so desperate to save that PoS.  And we also did some very important stuff along the same lines in another system.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 24, 2007, 12:02:29 PM
James315 is at it again: (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=561860)
Quote
Oh, hello there! It's been awhile, hasn't it? I've been terribly busy. Nevertheless, I felt the need to weigh in on the great mystery of the Great War: why is BoB losing?
...followed by four full posts by him explaining his viewpoint (with two further threads promised).

:awesome:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Kamen on July 24, 2007, 12:07:47 PM
Yeah, I read and enjoyed that this morning.  My favorite line from it:

after Cyvok left Virtuozzo took over and insisted, "you have your orders; form up into gangs and kill BoB." Some say Virtuozzo was a plant. They are probably right, in one sense or another.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 24, 2007, 01:57:00 PM
BoB seems to be taking down their towers in XGH as I write.  That was their high-water mark, and the one that led to us launching our counter into 9-9 behind them when we realised that they were short of PoSes and having to swap them around.  Obviously, they now have towers to commit somewhere else (D2-E, hopefully).  But after the last few campaigns, that's not a vast concern as it might once have been.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 25, 2007, 12:26:24 PM
MC has fiannly shown up to assist FIX in 49-U. So far it's even honors today, though the fleets with MC have come off worst off (FIX destroyed a IAC fleet this morning according to the IAC killboard).

Interestingly, there were some BoB with the MC fleet. Could be a lessening of pressure vs RSF?


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on July 25, 2007, 03:22:39 PM
Looks like you got what you wanted. After all the MC/outbreak heckling IAC members have been doing lately I'm not surprised they have finally paid FIX to get hired. It will be most interesting to see if they can lay the smack down as hard south as they have done up north now that their mining break is over.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 26, 2007, 12:26:28 AM
Well, MC figures AAA still owes them a Mothership.  Maybe they've decided to collect?  Anyway, you guys knew it wasn't *if* this would happen, but when, and wanted to move the line of scrimmage a little while they suited up.

More fun to fight IAC than AAA, though.  I hate those guys.  Not too late to reconsider standing next to the guy throwing shit at the armed man.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: 5150 on July 26, 2007, 07:18:24 AM
So in summary

BOB pets being bailed out by BOB pets [again]


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 26, 2007, 08:23:33 AM
Hey, it's at least given Mahrin the moral boost necessary to get him to post again: seeing that red name lingering sadly and silently at the top of the war thread every morning, but never posting has been kinda plaintive.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 26, 2007, 09:34:55 AM
So in summary

BOB pets being bailed out by BOB pets [again]
Isn't that the whole point of an alliance?


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 26, 2007, 11:44:35 AM
In the current model of Eve warfare, where 4 or more alliances attack 1, if you don't have allies you can count on, all you can do is delay your inevitable demise.  We've *done* the "fight to the end, alone" thing, it sucks.  Since IAC just brought in yet *another* alliance on their side (The Reckoning, with a Mothership), claiming that we're too weak to stand against the assault without our friends (when we've done just that against odds of over 3 to 1 for over a month) seems a little...disingenuous.

As for the silence, it's just been on this thread lately.  I usually don't comment much about FIX's ongoing battles, and I don't know anything about what is happening in the Tenerifis area.

--Dave

EDIT: The thing is, even though I'm no longer in the FIX command structure, I know too much about what FIX's capabilities, intentions, and goals are, enough that I can usually figure out our plans.  I don't comment on situations that are still in flux for FIX, because it's too easy to give away intel.  Speaking strictly of the overall strategic situation, what this comes down to is yet *another* contest over the FAT area escalating into a do-or-die fight as allies are called in.  FAT is shiny (very Megacyte rich) but strategically very far from Empire (20 jumps).  So it draws alliances to it like flies to amber, who then find themselves over-extended.  The only alliance ever to hold FAT and *not* regret it eventually is AAA, who realized their mistake and gave it to IAC.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on July 26, 2007, 02:51:06 PM
So here's a question... if "MC" is always hired by BoB, why the fuck aren't they just considered a bobbite?  Seems to me that once GF/RA were doing well, it would have behooved them to hire MC to remove that pawn from the board if they ARE in fact a true Mercenary group.

But that's just the tactician in me talking.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 26, 2007, 03:09:20 PM
MC have stated they will never work for goons, MC do accept other contracts in Empire for example. 

Plus the whole pet/meatshield insult thing is a load of bollocks, friends help friends, if someone is a true pet (in the sense of not being a strong enough pvp force to stand on their own) then they won't be much help in a war.  Fix shouldn't need to explain why they have friends helping or have hired help when their system is under attack, not asking for help when you need it is stupid.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 26, 2007, 03:19:16 PM
Plus the whole pet/meatshield insult thing is a load of bollocks, friends help friends, if someone is a true pet (in the sense of not being a strong enough pvp force to stand on their own) then they won't be much help in a war.
See GONAD, the New North, et al.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on July 26, 2007, 04:09:05 PM
MC have stated they will never work for goons, MC do accept other contracts in Empire for example. 

So then they ARE Bob pets in all but name.  Ok then.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 26, 2007, 04:50:09 PM
I think BoB used to call the shots for MC, now I think the situation has changed slightly.

MC before killing D2 (http://www.1stopfordogs.com/images/dogs2005/rottweiler-puppy-picture1a.jpg)

MC after killing D2 (http://www.cicsworld.org/blogs/snmoorthie/rottweiler%5B1%5D.jpg)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 27, 2007, 01:16:00 AM
Bob's New North on way back to empire (http://cache.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/puppies.jpg)

MC if Russians get involved with their cap fleet (http://www.cityofboston.gov/animalcontrol/images/Pit---bloody-face-2.jpg)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 27, 2007, 07:16:11 AM
Interesting times in 66- right now.

Edit: Damn, he got away.
Shrike/SirMolle's 'new' titan (jacked from Hedgemon Rast) was tackled in front of a BoB POS. (No dread HOT DROP was possible due to the 66- cyno jammer). Chowdown then showed up on local. Shrike was into armour & dropping when eventually the POS guns cleared enough enemies for SirMolle to escape...so he warped to a planet.

Remaining RSF fleet followed, tackled him again and then died to his doomsday. Not enough reinforcements left to tackle him for a third time, so he finally warped to safety.

If I were Hedgemon Rast, I'd be spitting feathers by this point.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on July 27, 2007, 08:43:55 AM
By "jacked, you mean he just jumped up the priority queue and got the new one, instead of whoever it was originally being built for? (Is Rast a person or a corp?).

If I get the story right, Molle was in a new titan (how do you even fit those?), got jumped, got hammered, barely got away, got followed, dropped a doomsday on the idiots who followed him, and then got away clean?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 27, 2007, 09:19:20 AM
'Jacked' =
Hedgemon Rast used to fly an Avatar.
So did SirMolle/Shrike.
SirMolle got his exploded by RSF.
SirMolle flies a 'new' Avatar.
Hedgemon no longer flies an Avatar.

And yes, you summed it up pretty well - bear in mind that if the cyno jammer wasn't online, he'd have had a few dozen dreads dropped on his head the first time (or, more accurately, he wouldn't have left a friendly POS to begin with).


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on July 27, 2007, 11:35:18 AM
At least he is improving  :-D



Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 27, 2007, 12:45:02 PM
At least he is improving  :-D

True dat.  Is it true he got fleet-warped?  Seems more likely to me.

I imagine that the phone calls to anyone who knew the Orange Species account details and wasn't at work would have been fast and furious.  Funny, I always thought that Morning Orange Species would be first to lose a titan (logged out doesn't count: it's just shotting pos): now Molle is apparently desperate to be first to lose two.


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on July 27, 2007, 01:39:51 PM
He got gang warped to the planet where he desynced, recovered and fired the doomsday.

Its still tricky to take a titan out for a spin when there is an entire fleet ready to tackle you but at least its possible again under certain conditions.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 27, 2007, 04:36:05 PM
Those conditions being sov level 3 and no logged off russians in dreads in-system...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 28, 2007, 07:55:42 AM
Bob's weird under-performance continues: last night we turned up in fleet strength, and although they started off with numbers advantage (and obviously with shinier ships) we just hammered them for three hours.  The simplest (and stupidest) measure is k/d ration, of course, where they lost 28 battleships to our 16.  We lost 79 ships to their 82, but of course a lot of our ships were lol goon rabble - they did pop our tacklers well - whereas they only had 9 straight T1, T1-fitted ships on the list.  I guess James315 might be right: all their signings from LV and others in the last year have been dross, and their allies suck.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 28, 2007, 11:49:08 AM
I don't know exactly how the fighting has been going in 49-U, but MC lost a carrier (apparently came out of warp 10km short of a POS and AAA/IAC jumped on it) and 1 of the 3 POS's coming out of reinforced was destroyed. I missed the first POS (work) and will be asleep for POS 2 and 3.

2 MC's motherships were stationed on the 49-U gate.



Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 28, 2007, 02:06:05 PM
AnthonyZ/Kugutsumen just trolled the everliving crap out of SHC (http://scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=7015), and Dianabolic bit hard.
(Why trolling? Well, compare his post to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan) :D)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on July 28, 2007, 03:12:55 PM
AnthonyZ/Kugutsumen just trolled the everliving crap out of SHC (http://scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=7015), and Dianabolic bit hard.
(Why trolling? Well, compare his post to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan) :D)

I think Dianabolic's post got moderated out of existence. At least, I don't see it any more. :|

Edit: Oh wait, the "next page" button isn't where I expected. Nevermind.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 28, 2007, 03:49:02 PM
Sadly, when Mittani posted the details of how dianabolic had been trolled, and coffeetable posted the link, Hippoking locked the thread  :x.  4 down.  Three letters, colloquialism or euphemism for cigarette.  It was going awesomely, with dianabolic proclaiming the saintliness of T20 and conveniently ignoring his alliance welcoming Kug's previous employers into their corps post-facto.

Fact is, for all that AnthonyZ hugely damaged GF, both with his LV hack and then by driving Mittani fruitloops by fuelling his paranoia, he did as much as anyone to fix the game, by forcing CCP to accept that they were seen (fairly justifiably) as corrupt to an extent that was beyond the pale.  Him and Bane Glorious.

Edit: Spelling


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 28, 2007, 04:49:11 PM
Goonfleet opens a public forum.

http://www.goonfleet.com/forumdisplay.php?f=48

This is going to be interesting.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 28, 2007, 05:12:50 PM
That's just frighting.  :|


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on July 28, 2007, 06:20:43 PM
Is no one who reads F13 up on what happens in the north? I'm kinda curious about how RAZOR is faring.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 28, 2007, 07:50:19 PM
My understanding of the North is it is currently a giant cluster fuck. I'm sure that clears it up for you completely!  :-P


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on July 28, 2007, 08:41:55 PM
All 3 FIX POS towers in 49-U were destroyed by battleship gangs while the McFIX fleet apperntly didn't do much, though they might have killed 1 carrier. IAC/AAA/Reckoning/BOS gang got to 250 vs about 100 McFIX. As the fight was done with non-cap ships, a BoB Titan could well have decided things if it had shown up.

FIX loses sov in a few days, though will get it back after a day or two.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 29, 2007, 02:41:24 AM
Is no one who reads F13 up on what happens in the north? I'm kinda curious about how RAZOR is faring.

I know that Sparta and allies got beaten to a pulp by Tri and others in a huge fleet action a few days ago, and lost their cap ship yards complete with nascent mothership.  I think there was a temporary NAPfest for that between MM, Tri and Razor though I doubt if it lasted after the victory.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 29, 2007, 11:13:10 PM
Tyrrax seems to have miscounted POS somewhere along the line, and 49-U is still in FIX hands.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 30, 2007, 01:59:09 AM
Something of tremendous strategic importance is happening right now in 66.  I've had to leave to goto work (late) now, but if it keeps moving in our direction like it was, BoB are going to be beaten back on yet another of their alarm clock ops.  That said, it's very hard to tell just what is going on from nothing but counting wrecks, so we'll see.

Edit: last ten kills on each side - chosen right now true at virtually any time.  Bob are getting killed faster, so theirs' are part of a group of kills within 2 minutes.  Goons' happened over the last 14 minutes, but are pretty much the same engagement:

Bob losses: claymore, tempest, megathron, arazu, malediction, claw, armageddon, crow, megathron, taranis

Goon losses: rifter, rifter, rifter, merlin, incursus, heretic, scorpion, rifter, rifter, rifter

Ouch.  The first kill alone on that bob list costs more to replace than all of those GF ships by a factor of several.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Megrim on July 30, 2007, 02:38:46 AM
What the hell are the BoB FCs doing to trade upper-tier ships for so many Rifters?!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 30, 2007, 02:50:35 AM
I dunno: perhaps just suicidal desperation?  If our UNL allies' POSes make it through this fight then Bob lose sufficient sov for the next month to not be able to erect cyno jammers.  Since what's happening now always seems to happen if they can't use their supercaps these days, they're getting desperate and launched repeated, costly attacks on us, each getting beaten off.  There were so many wrecks we had to blow them up because of the lag they were causing.

Also, their pilots seem to be getting sick of losing their battleships and command ships (oh, the command ships in the kms) - or don't have them - so more and more were using inties, which are great for killing lolT1frigates, but of no real value whatsoever when, on the third attack, you choose to send what's left of your sniper fleet into the enemy at zero.  The 90 minutes or so, however, I'm just guessing at from the KB and what's going on in our forums.

As you can imagine, those forums are pretty enjoyable right now.  A few hours ago, 66 had hostile cyno jammers up, a Bob alarm clock op called, five of our POSes vulnerable to attack in just about our worst timezone...  Now we have a month of proper fights with the likelihood of no retarded-CCP invulnerable titans, and we know who wins those fights these days.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 30, 2007, 03:11:39 AM
Tyrrax seems to have miscounted POS somewhere along the line, and 49-U is still in FIX hands.
Doesn't surprise me all that much, tbqh - Tyrrax is the sort of person who uses Impocs as bait-ships, so a reckless miscounting of POSes/missing a 'hidden'* POS is fairly plausible.

Fleet battle of [img-pyramidhead] stuff
What makes it more amusing is that most of the BoB pets & allies (down here in the south, at least - RISE, SOCO et al) are utterly convinced that BoB are kicking the everliving crap out of RSF and have been doing so for weeks. I mean, this goes beyond propaganda and well into kool-aid territory.


*'Hidden' POS as in one in orbit around a moon not within ship-scanner range of straight-line warps between gates/outpost/existing POSes. Useful up until the point where the enemy fleet commander gets annoyed and starts sending out covops to find them. :)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 30, 2007, 03:39:43 AM
What makes it more amusing is that most of the BoB pets & allies (down here in the south, at least - RISE, SOCO et al) are utterly convinced that BoB are kicking the everliving
crap out of RSF and have been doing so for weeks. I mean, this goes beyond propaganda and well into kool-aid territory.

I just don't understand it, myself.  Between us we've taken, what, five or six station systems from Bob in the five weeks?  Of the two places that they chose to make their stands, D2 is a matter of time and 66 is swinging in our direction.  And yet they honestly seem to believe they have reason to be pleased. Long may such delusions last, of course: it lets us get stuff done.

And Rise, likewise, genuinelly seem to believe that they repelled a GF invasion recently.  I mean, we've fought one pitched battleagainst them recently and this is what happened (http://eve-rise.coldpoetry.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=22944).  For some, that Rise killboard might need some explanation: they weren't outnumbered 82-23.  Numbers were 78-82.  But you only get mentioned on that sort of battle-report if you are on a killmail, either as victim or winner.  And since they only managed to kill one T1 cruiser and two T1 frigates before they scarpered, leaving 21 dead ships behind, most of their survivors never got on a killmail, and so don't appear.  Don't Rise know that they are dead men walking?!?

If anyone is interested, here is a screenshot of one of the fleets we deployed today (http://phang.net/eve/fleet.jpg): this was the smaller one for an earlier op in 66.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Megrim on July 30, 2007, 04:14:45 AM
I dunno: perhaps just suicidal desperation?  If our UNL allies' POSes make it through this fight then Bob lose sufficient sov for the next month to not be able to erect cyno jammers.  Since what's happening now always seems to happen if they can't use their supercaps these days, they're getting desperate and launched repeated, costly attacks on us, each getting beaten off.  There were so many wrecks we had to blow them up because of the lag they were causing.

Also, their pilots seem to be getting sick of losing their battleships and command ships (oh, the command ships in the kms) - or don't have them - so more and more were using inties, which are great for killing lolT1frigates, but of no real value whatsoever when, on the third attack, you choose to send what's left of your sniper fleet into the enemy at zero.  The 90 minutes or so, however, I'm just guessing at from the KB and what's going on in our forums.

As you can imagine, those forums are pretty enjoyable right now.  A few hours ago, 66 had hostile cyno jammers up, a Bob alarm clock op called, five of our POSes vulnerable to attack in just about our worst timezone...  Now we have a month of proper fights with the likelihood of no retarded-CCP invulnerable titans, and we know who wins those fights these days.

Actually, i was thinking more in terms of their tactics. Like, what the hell, how?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on July 30, 2007, 05:35:47 AM
Actually, i was thinking more in terms of their tactics. Like, what the hell, how?
Warping their sniper gangs to zero @ gates.
Warping BS gang in, letting a couple get tackled, warping the remainder out. Repeat.
Pilots losing their battleships & HACs but coming back in interceptors and then deciding to attack frigates as primary.
I'm surprised we didn't see an AFK gang-warp to a hostile POS, TBH.

...basically, they're flying like Goonfleet on a bad day. Oh, and at least two carriers down  (one of which belonged to M'buku - a mod at SHC). :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 30, 2007, 07:16:52 AM
Wheeeere's Goonfleet?

(http://www.traintohell.com/gf/66-small.jpg)

Theeeere's Goonfleet.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 30, 2007, 12:08:04 PM
TBH, Blacklight was more than just one of the BoB CEO's, he was their best grand strategist and one of their better FC's.  BoB also did a lot of recruiting during the period of Titan uberdom, a trump card that forgave many mistakes and kept them from properly shaking down the new recruits.  As individuals those pilots are as good as it gets, and operating on the old-style "total war" tactics where winning is determined by maintaining a 23/7 siege on the enemy, they'd be more than capable.

But these days, wars are decided by POS counts, and the battles that count are the ones that influence that number (and sieging is only effective insofar as it affects the enemy wallets, because POS fuel and parts can always be carrier-jumped).  With everyone so reluctant to deploy Dreads for fear of getting them mousetrapped, and super-caps essentially hangar queens that can't be hangared, BoB has been slower to change up tactics.  Which is pretty normal, the ones who best mastered the tactics of the last war are always the last to give them up.  And in close proximity to a POS, skill points count less than total numbers.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on July 30, 2007, 01:30:22 PM
I'm not sure it's so much people are afraid to use Dreads, as much as it is that they can't due to cyno jammers. That seems to be the new complaint going around at least.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Chenghiz on July 30, 2007, 01:35:32 PM
Goonfleet opens a public forum.

http://www.goonfleet.com/forumdisplay.php?f=48

This is going to be interesting.

Oh happy day!


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on July 30, 2007, 01:44:24 PM
I'm not sure it's so much people are afraid to use Dreads, as much as it is that they can't due to cyno jammers. That seems to be the new complaint going around at least.
If you've got clear local superiority, taking down a Cyno jammer without dreads isn't that hard, and taking down a POS isn't much harder (about an hour for 100 BS for the POS).  The cyno jammer makes a good "first trench", but it's no more than that (as IAC and friends have repeatedly shown in 49-U).

--Dave

EDIT: What I forgot to say was that everyone seems paranoid about getting their Dread fleets mousetrapped and seeing 50B+ go up in smoke in a single battle.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on July 30, 2007, 03:47:33 PM
Yeah, Bob are having to learn to deal with an enemy who are very aware of the importance of the concept of posessing a fleet in being.

I think that you have a number of good points, Mahrin, but one really worrying thing for Bob must be that they started the 66 battle on their own terms, with Goons jumping into a bubbled Bob gatecamp.  The one thing that everyone accepts Bob can do is endlessly camp gates.  And yet the RSF forces brushed it aside and went on to shut down the cyno jammers.

Sooner or later they'll manage to keep cynos up at the same time as having POSes come out of reinforced in a system where they know we don't have logged-out capitals.  They'll win that one and will shout about it a lot.  But in every other aspect of POS warfare James315 is right: they just can't seem to buy a win.  They have, admittedly, a big problem timing stront when 2/3 of the timezones are hostile and their cap-fleet numbers are down 50% in alarm-clock ops.

-----

We just killed another Evol carrier in 66, btw.  We have another POS coming out of reinforced and this is the warm-up.  I accept I may wake up tomorrow and regret saying this, but I don't for a second think Bob have the ability to take it down.

Edit: Bob didn't take the POS down, of course.  On the same note as the previous picture, by the way, see if you can spot 66- in this map of eve's star cluster (http://img.waffleimages.com/290398f241e735c1d18fd474a9deacf24358fd84/evemap.jpg) with the statistics option showing "ships destrpyed in the last 24 hours".


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 31, 2007, 09:14:36 AM
Edit: Bob didn't take the POS down, of course.  On the same note as the previous picture, by the way, see if you can spot 66- in this map of eve's star cluster (http://img.waffleimages.com/290398f241e735c1d18fd474a9deacf24358fd84/evemap.jpg) with the statistics option showing "ships destrpyed in the last 24 hours".

Waffleimages only work if you have a goon site open (I think).

Rehosted it.

(http://www.mypicshare.com/thumbs/20070731/o6vvtn7c.jpg) (http://www.mypicshare.com/o6vvtn7cpic.html)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on July 31, 2007, 09:23:07 AM
JEbus.. I thought it was bright before. Seeing it was that big against the WHOLE starmap and not just a sector or constellation is crazy town.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on August 01, 2007, 03:31:56 PM
Might as well post this before someone else does: MC lost a Mothership in 49-U a little bit ago.  The pilot desynched and disconnected, and we were apparently never able to get it clear of bubbles at the same time he was in control of the ship,   Somebody has been stocking up dictors for just such an occasion, it seems.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Yoru on August 01, 2007, 03:48:32 PM
Might as well post this before someone else does: MC lost a Mothership in 49-U a little bit ago.  The pilot desynched and disconnected, and we were apparently never able to get it clear of bubbles at the same time he was in control of the ship,   Somebody has been stocking up dictors for just such an occasion, it seems.

--Dave

Aren't desync losses usually reimbursed pretty quickly?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 01, 2007, 04:12:29 PM
Supercapital desynchs - and there is a lot of evidence he wasn't desynched - don't get reimbursed.  If he got reimbursed then a lot of us who suffered genuine desynchs would be upset in a very tinfoil way, and CCP knows that.  I don't think they're stupid enough to fall for it.

MC plays high risk games, using their MSs in the laggy front line to intimidate.  They didn't do it in front of Russians for very long before blowing what must be most or all of their "fee" (whatever form that takes).

Anyway, in other news, not only have MC met the Russians but Bob had all of their remaining POSes in XGH destroyed.  XGH is cleansed by the purifying fire of the Redswarm Federation  And not only that, but in 66- UNL took sovereignty from BoB.  Due to the vagaries of POS warfare it will go back for a few days, but then it'll be back to UNL again properly.  And Bob have lost sov in the R97 station system too.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on August 01, 2007, 04:42:30 PM
The big think about losing sov is that they can no longer use a cyno jammer I believe.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 01, 2007, 10:30:05 PM
Might as well post this before someone else does: MC lost a Mothership in 49-U a little bit ago.

According to the IAC combat report, No AAA caps were involved (the final blow was done by a Raven!). Only Dread to make an appearance was Tyraxx (who didn't die, his luck has changed). MC had 3 MS and a carrier, and were lucky they only lost 1 MS and 1 CV.  Seelene only escaped because the dysnc allowed the bubbles not to effect his MS, desync was occuring both sides.

It was not a planned battle, it was an escalating meeting engagement that occurred because MC deployed 4 MS's vs a 21 man fleet  and this gave IAC/AAA pilots an excuse to join the brawl. While MC is good at what they do, and the battle for 49-U is far from over, (and FIX still holds it solidly) they don't seem to get good results vs IAAAAC.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 02, 2007, 01:11:57 AM
The big think about losing sov is that they can no longer use a cyno jammer I believe.

Exactly.  Even if they somehow managed to kill some of our POSes (heh), erect and defend their own, and get back long-term sovereignty it would be a month before they could erect cyno jammers again.  Molle can no longer swan around in his titan like it was the good old days.  Next time he's tackled in 66 he'll have good reason to be terrified of cynos.


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on August 02, 2007, 01:24:50 AM
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0708/SedithDesynched.jpg (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0708/SedithDesynched.jpg)

Looks like he genuinely desynced at some point. He still won't get it back, most likely.

You have to be brave/stupid to field (super)caps these days. I think I'll just play my goon alt some more  :wink:


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 02, 2007, 01:43:29 AM
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0708/SedithDesynched.jpg (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0708/SedithDesynched.jpg)

Looks like he genuinely desynced at some point. He still won't get it back, most likely.

You have to be brave/stupid to field (super)caps these days. I think I'll just play my goon alt some more  :wink:

In the unlikely event that you genuinely have a goon alt then you are the worst spy ever.  Your IP is logged on here, where I seem to remember that at least one mod is a goon.  Your IP is logged on goonfleet.com.  Ridiculous excuses like "harumph, well, of course I always spoof when using GF.com" will not wash.

On the upside, you're probably speaking nonsense.  But you should get a goon alt.  Half of Eve has one, and all of their ten bucks keep lowtax happy.  You'd find it more fun, you would be made to feel right at home in Rho squad, and we're not losing systems and T2 ships like there's no tomorrow.  Which, for some involved, there isn't.


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on August 02, 2007, 02:10:43 AM
Its just for fun. No wild spy stuff is going on.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 02, 2007, 02:19:36 AM
Its just for fun. No wild spy stuff is going on.

Harumph.. that's just what a spy would say.

Now that we have another newbie drive firing up, however, it would be hard to be a spy in GF:

"They're going to 66-... no, wait, some of them are going to 46-dp and attacking rats on the gate.. erm, some are just orbiting the station with MWD on til their cap runs out... their own fleet commander just blew up seven of them for losing points on targets... two of them are attacking their fleet commander for blowing up their mate..."


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on August 02, 2007, 02:42:40 AM
"...the FC sounds incredibly drunk and is screaming at his own echo on TS to shut up otherwise he'll pod his dog. Oh God, he started singing"


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on August 02, 2007, 02:45:48 AM
I always considered it a lot of fun to be able to switch sides in an MMO for a bit. It's much more fun to blow up your mates than some complete stranger after all. Especially when you get to wave killmails around and make fun of them afterwards.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 02, 2007, 03:49:04 AM
I always considered it a lot of fun to be able to switch sides in an MMO for a bit. It's much more fun to blow up your mates than some complete stranger after all. Especially when you get to wave killmails around and make fun of them afterwards.

OK, you've won me over.  Please give me an invite into BoB so I can kill Dungar and Apple Boy.  I promise not to spy or steal everything out of your hangars.


Title: Re: War
Post by: bhodi on August 02, 2007, 04:56:40 AM
erm, some are just orbiting the station with MWD on til their cap runs out...
This was the most enjoyable part of the game for me -- the buildup to finally be able to fit a MWD and finally, the payoff when you see how fast you can go... around and around and around and around!


Title: Re: War
Post by: dwindlehop on August 02, 2007, 02:36:23 PM
erm, some are just orbiting the station with MWD on til their cap runs out...
This was the most enjoyable part of the game for me -- the buildup to finally be able to fit a MWD and finally, the payoff when you see how fast you can go... around and around and around and around!
Word. I still do it every time I reach a new speed plateau.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Toast on August 02, 2007, 04:35:49 PM
I love reading about this war. It's awesome drama that no other game even approaches. It's awesome to see the catass/evil empire get its comeuppance..


Title: Re: War
Post by: Drogo on August 03, 2007, 10:34:57 AM
Man what is going on in the North with Triumvirate? What has it been a month or two at most since they moved toward Deklein and now they have driven out VX, Aftermath, Sparta and Storm Armada. Any bets on where they head next? I am thinking they attack the rest of the new north, but I would not put it past them to attack the old north. I also wonder if they are actually going to claim all of Sparta and Storm Armada space or leave it for someone else to move in? That is an awful lot of territory to try and hold on to. TRI is definitely the wild card for the North.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 03, 2007, 12:19:10 PM
News from the Sideshow FIX front: 4 FIX towers were put into reinforced, though the battle was not considered a success by IAC (I don't know why, though we had 50(?) cap ships in system).

MC lost a Mothership to the IAAAAC fleet and have stopped dropping them on 10-20 man gangs. The initiative still lies with IAAACBOSRECON, and MC has failed to take it back. MC are overrated, though their small gangs still raid Catch getting easy kills. Outbreak was much more of an issue though.

The Clone bay in 49-U is regularly out of service, as is the warp jammer and guns on both sides POSs.

FIX had some internal mails alleging that IAC morale is dropping. The 85+ IAC mining fleet in 49-U disagrees. The FIX intenral emails also allege they put some IAC towers in Catch into reinforced mode. This was news to the owners.

I've learnt that gun-Cruisers are pretty much useless. You can't do enough damage, can't stay out of range, and still get called primary.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 03, 2007, 02:44:02 PM
News from the Sideshow FIX front...

Don't do yourselves down: the Fix front is anything but a sideshow.  It's tying down a significant proportion of BoB's pets, including MC and fix, and Bob know perfectly well what will happen when Fix falls and they are still committed to the southern front with the Redswarm Federation.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on August 03, 2007, 04:34:00 PM
FIX had some internal mails alleging that IAC morale is dropping. The 85+ IAC mining fleet in 49-U disagrees. The FIX intenral emails also allege they put some IAC towers in Catch into reinforced mode. This was news to the owners.
News to me, too.  Unless this is from some other corp's mail ad not the alliance, I have no idea what you're talking about.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on August 03, 2007, 04:36:43 PM
Probably a random FIXian trying to do propaganda in Local/CAOD/somewhere else, Mahrin.
Speaking of propaganda, my favourite CAOD poster is at it again.... (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=569210)
Quote
Very well, this has become a long post by CAOD standards. I will reward those who have made it this far with a quick summary.

BoB is undeniably losing the POS war, and its failures to attack and defend deathstars are unprecedented. They can only result in the loss of more and more territory.
BoB's participation is declining and will continue to do so, especially for capitals. This is the result of their failure to get easy wins, and also makes certain more failures in the future: a classic failure cascade.
BoB and pets, the supply lines will not save you. Feythabolis is close to the front lines, and jump bridges and other Eve features prevent distance from being an important factor. The Querious front puts you in an even more perilous situation.
The ISK for POSes will not save you. RSF has plenty of cash and, unlike BoB, is not losing deathstars. As the front moves westward, RSF can reuse deathstars to avoid being out-spammed.
Red Alliance will not spare you. It desires, deserves, is gaining and will have its breathing space, at your expense.
CCP will not save you. It is not going to radically alter the game or break it for your benefit. If it wanted to do that, it would not have fixed the supercapitals. You are outnumbered due to your own faults and you will increasingly be outnumbered as your participation drops and pets flee your side.
Constellation sovereignty will not save you. It will not make your systems invincible, and in fact will assist RSF more than you due to the introduction of jump bridges.
The Mercenary Coalition will not save you. It is busy in Querious, where it has not been distinguishing itself but has been providing lots of fun for IAC and AAA.
Bonus note: Seleene screwed up big time, and I told you so.
BoB, the renters will not save you. You have failed to live up to your own contract terms. They owe you no loyalty and will not turn out in greater numbers to make up for your own failings.
Renters, BoB will not save you. It cannot hold its own systems and is weakening steadily in terms of both fleet performance and capital participation. Do your own people a favor and get out while the getting is good.
BoB directorate, your organization will not experience a second wind, and you will not find a magic fix in either a morale blog or threats of mandatory ops. Your job will not become more pleasant as the defeats pile up and your people demand answers and offer unrealistic solutions.
Things may look bad for BoB now, but they are going to get much, much worse.



Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 03, 2007, 09:13:15 PM
James315 is my favourite poster in COAD. I need to send him some ISK in thanks for a fat better stratagic analysis than anyone has elsewhere, even if he may be wrong, he's well written.  He'd never be allowed to do it (even if he could or wanted to) but I would love to see him on EVE-TV one day.


In war news IAC put some of the 49-U crucial station services (cloning, fitting, repairing) into off mode, and put another POS into reinforced. So that makes 5 POS's up for grabs in 1-3 days, though earlier in the day we lost a cap ship and fleet (Tyraxx seems to be responsible for all IAC fiascos these days). (edit: another POS destroyed because it was attacked while being anchored. MCFIX made no effort to save it).

I think right now MC would have been more useful attacking Goonfleet's rear area's into/from Great Wildlands. FIX is doing an somewhat-ok job holding off the Central Coalition, and isn't doing much better with MC leading fleets either.  MC's assistance has not yet dramaticly changed anything strategically. Right now the're acting like Outbreak (coming into FAT 1d3 times a day and killing 1d6 ratters), and not doing it as well as Outbreak do. FIX would have got a better deal if the'd hired Outbreak to do that. Outbreak would threaten both ends of Catch, MC is only raiding the FAT end of it.

Comedy news report: If CCP made Mario Brothers (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TJnhOQsPj8), Youtube video, open in a new tab.

Late news update: the Outpost in MB- is now up (unknown what happened to the petition). In 30 days IAC gets constallation sov in the JZV homeland.


Title: Re: War
Post by: neep on August 04, 2007, 01:22:53 PM
Quote
James315 is my favourite poster in COAD. I need to send him some ISK in thanks for a fat better stratagic analysis than anyone has elsewhere

ah well, as the man said:
James 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%203:15;&version=31;)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 04, 2007, 03:44:12 PM
AAA just unveiled a second titan.  Unveiled by using it to destroy a YouWhat convoy coming down to help Fix (the first time YW had decided to do this).

RA just unveiled their titan.

Bob just brought 200 pilots (many worthless pets) including dreads to 66-, so the coalition brought 400.  Of course, lag is in the many-minutes range, and desynchs are everywhere, so this could go either way.  Either side could get utterly destroyed, or nothing might happen.  Interesting balance of numbers at Bob's utterly best time of the week for a mandatory op, though - weekend evenings euro (and GF's worst time).

I wonder if James315's continual and successful (in purely forum warfare terms) taunting, particularly about Bob losing almost 50 large towers in the last 8 weeks for zero killed in return, prompted an all-out attempt to win a pos battle?  Nobody understands like goons that it'll be hard when they're so deeply penetrated by spies that we plan counter-ops almost 24 hours in advance.  Been there, suffered that.

Edit: Spelling


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on August 05, 2007, 12:43:31 AM
What a difference a day makes.  As Comstar told, BOS spammed down 4 large POS in 49-U right before DT, we counter-spammed but one was attacked before it got to online and we let it go, another the haulers were killed (apparently inside the shields) and it was put into reinforced.  Because the haulers got killed, it was short on stront (12 hours I think) and just came out about half an hour ago.

In between that POS being placed in reinforced and it coming out, ISS and AXE arrived in force (YW- was unfortunately delayed :-P).  3 BOS POS were attacked by an impromptu FIX dread fleet (MC was not present, AXE had Steel Rat), 2 had two hours of stront and one had none, all three were destroyed.  The short-stront FIX tower was not attacked (in fact, we killed a carrier in 25S shortly before it was supposed to come out).  The five IAC small towers were not even fueled (perhaps they were 100M isk "Pings" to create DED mails for their spies to read before they could be deleted?), and were destroyed.

At the end of the day, IAC and friends are actually *farther* from interrupting Sov than they were before, their numbers advantage is closing, and the lack of stront in their towers as well as the fact that it was *4* BOS POS spammed and not 5 would indicate their logistics are strained.  5 FIX towers remain to come out of reinforced, at 4 to 7 hour intervals over a 26 hour period ending Monday afternoon.  Even if IAC and company manage to stage 5 fleet ops in 26 hours, successfully and without major losses, killing all 5 remaining reinforced POS, their attempted knockout punch will be a failure.  Again.

MC did prove to be something of a mixed blessing, if only because their presence acted as a flashpoint attracting both more IAC participation and alliances that had previously been uninvolved.  On the other hand, we still own 49-U, something that would have been questionable without their assistance, and impossible if a significant portion of that bump to IAC forces had shown up anyway.  3 to 1 doesn't scare us, 10 to 1 would really have sucked.

--Dave

EDIT: BTW, thank you for shooting up the 49-U services.  It gives our carriers something to do after you go home.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 05, 2007, 01:46:07 AM
Meanwhile, back on the RSF front, BoB's Big Push ended in total and abject failure.  They came to 66- with the complete works, allies and all, intending to put our PoSs into reinforced the way they did in 9-9 a few weeks ago.  They ended up with an array of their PoSs in reinforced.  They almost succeeded in defending one PoS, but couldn't maintain their defense, and after that the high point of their night was, erm, not losing a hauler trying to online some PoS guns.  We stole the guns, though.  The night ended up with us holding the system handily and going around reinforcing their PoSs, with some of them having some very interesting stront timing.

Another brilliant strategic result, but this time in Bob primetime, at the time and place of their choosing.  We also won the k/d ratio yet again if any chuckleheads care.  :-P

Edit: We just took down a Bob large PoS in Bob's most important system on this front, in Bob primetime when bob had called a strategic op to defend it.  Read into that what you will.

Another Edit:  Sixteen PoS guns and other modules removed and a UNL Large put up in place of the Bob tower.  Sovereignty in this system will now come to us and our awesome allies.  As someone said in channel: "gg next map".


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on August 05, 2007, 09:10:27 PM
The night ended up with us holding the system handily and going around reinforcing their PoSs, with some of them having some very interesting stront timing.

I've heard that they are changing the stront timers. Max will be 22 hours or something like that.


I haven't been around lately, so I can't really comment on recent happenings.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on August 06, 2007, 12:43:09 AM
Now that's gonna suck.  Right now the only real advantage the defenders have is that they can choose the time of the *second* battle, the one that will determine if the POS lives or dies.  If it's limited to a day or less, all they can do is try to move it from an enemy peak to their own (or to godawful of the morning so it sucks for everyone), and if thiers trails the enemy (like say a US-dominated alliance fighting several European-heavy alliances) that gives them only hours to put together a defense.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 06, 2007, 01:01:50 AM
I've heard that they are changing the stront timers. Max will be 22 hours or something like that.

Got a source for that?  Or did you hear it via MSN? ;)

Edit:
I should read Bane Glorious's threads more often, as he posted about this change on goonfleet ages ago.  An eve-o link is here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=569986).

Now that's gonna suck.  Right now the only real advantage the defenders have is that they can choose the time of the *second* battle

It's not that bad, really.  We're a US-heavy alliance but we have good friends in euro time who will turn out to defend our stuff, and vice-versa.  You just need euro allies who care about your stuff and are capable of defending it.  Of course, Bob are not those allies  :-P

Edit: It's all a mistake on Sisi anyway :(


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on August 06, 2007, 06:30:39 AM
FREGE are either unwilling or unable to take part in big fleet battles, so they've come up with a new way to annoy BoB+pets: Get a gang of ~200 cloaking battleships, and fly around BoB territory destroying station services unopposed. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=569977)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 06, 2007, 06:39:29 AM
FREGE are either unwilling or unable to take part in big fleet battles, so they've come up with a new way to annoy BoB+pets: Get a gang of ~200 cloaking battleships, and fly around BoB territory destroying station services unopposed. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=569977)

Did they do it as one gang?  From what I read I thought they were splitting up and competing for prizes.  FREGE are fun, and they've found a hell of a way to show that the emperor has no clothes, or at least that he isn't wearing underwear.  Bob still have NPC stations, of course, but the cloning being down on their forward stations in particular must be a bitch for movement.  Let alone fitting ships...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 06, 2007, 02:14:11 PM
IAAAC forced killed 2 more POS's in 49-U, and er...forgot about the others coming out of reinforced (that's Tyraxx's story at any rate). Edit: FIX nearly wiped out a IAAAAC fleet that was jumping in system to kill the first POS. In my opinion it's a stupid idea to attempt any sneaky plan once local gets over 50, lag has a way of stopping your sneaky plan. Do Not Attempt To Be Clever When Local Is High and Lag Will Be High.

AAA killed an ISS carrier that was 40km out of the POS shields.

I learnt how to watch an enemy fleet in a POS (they never aliigned, and only sent out the inties once). Local got to about 350, the FIX fleet being outnumbered 2-1.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on August 06, 2007, 04:07:41 PM
IAAAC forced killed 2 more POS's in 49-U, and er...forgot about the others coming out of reinforced (that's Tyraxx's story at any rate).
So the 250+ man fleet you sent against us when the first one came out of reinforced yesterday just kind of forgot why they were there?  I guess getting slaughtered on the jump in can mess with your sense of purpose.  And I was *so* hoping to finally get a real chance to test out SDM 4, too (finished training 2 hours before the POS came out).

Anyway, FIX feels pretty good about how things turned out this weekend.  Starting to wonder if you guys are ever going to run out of TS spies, though.  Although I should point out, sometimes *knowing* your communications are compromised is as useful as knowing they aren't.

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 07, 2007, 01:52:10 AM
Yet another good night of achievements on the southern front.  We went to D2E around the last hour of BoB prime and did a quick PoS tour.  The servers went down, at which point I went to try and catch up on sleep, but the results after they eventually came back up were three BoB PoSes destroyed and their main large in the system reinforced (and most modules on it, too).

Capswarm rolls on.  BoB turnout was low again.

Elsewhere, I think we (RA and us) now have a PoS majority in two more BoB station systems.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Furiously on August 07, 2007, 02:42:09 PM
Anyway, FIX feels pretty good about how things turned out this weekend.  Starting to wonder if you guys are ever going to run out of TS spies, though.  Although I should point out, sometimes *knowing* your communications are compromised is as useful as knowing they aren't.

--Dave

It's even more fun when your *leadership* is compromised...


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 08, 2007, 01:37:15 AM
I'm not sure that people care about a monotonous list of RSF success after success, but just in case anyone does, last night we went to a key system in the south and destroyed another large bob-pet pos, stole several more (numbers vague for opsec, but all were donated to the target by BoB) then went elsewhere and did some bad things to other BoB PoSes.  Bob, as usual, were hanging around at a pos in numbers but chose not to engage (well, not directly).


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on August 08, 2007, 04:33:10 AM
I, for one, love this thread.  It's the first one I read when I come here.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on August 08, 2007, 05:21:58 AM
I, for one, love this thread.  It's the first one I read when I come here.

Yes. Please proceed. I'd like to see more biased views from both sides, those lead to good squabbles!


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on August 08, 2007, 06:59:58 AM
It's a little difficult for the usual arguements, though - BoB seem reluctant to engage (so limited fights/desyncs/turkeyshoots on either side), no broken uberships dominating the battlefields, and limited room for speculation on "Who will side with who" as the battle lines are well and truly drawn at the moment, and so on.

We're in the meatgrinder stage - it's all down to whose nerve will break first in two of the three fronts (BoB + RISE et al vs RSF, and FIX/MC/Outbreak vs IAC/-A-), and what TRI does next on the third (MM etc. vs tattered remnants of the 'New North' vs TRI/YW).

About the only thing worth debating is why in the blue blazes does Triumverate still have youwhat as allies? :D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 09, 2007, 02:02:44 AM
It's also hard to get good arguments going at the moment since two of the three main Bob advocates (Joe and LC) have been pretty much absent since their 9-9 debacle and throughout their ensuing chain of losses: it seems quite a lot of Bob have pressing commitments in other areas these days.  Neep still shows up, but he needs to be less reasonable if we're to get a fight :x

Things were kinda mixed last night: with a cynojammer still running in D2, our latest front-line system, BoB felt safe in deploying dreads, and put our large tower into reinforced.  Not a brilliant strategic move, since it wasn't even claiming sovereignty, and not very well done, since they scarpered when our reinforcement fleet started moving, before knocking out all the guns, but at least it means they can have a fight when it comes out, pre-work Bob time.  Dianabolic says that's why they did it, so perhaps it might even happen.  Given that they're now down by somewhere around 57-0 (I'm serious) in the large POSs destroyed/stolen contest, the smart money is not exactly on them succeeding, but I am too lowly to know whether we've managed to get dreads in system.  If they finally manage to destroy an RSF large tower then I'm sure you'll read about it in a delirious Eve-O thread: they must manage it eventually.

Anyway, we dicked around and disabled stuff on the staion while repairing our shit.  Personally, I turned up looking for a fleet fight in an ewar ship, so when Bob logged out I was left in a pointless craft that couldn't really damage the station and couldn't run a remote repper or even provide cap for those that could.  I have millions of SPs in ewar and have yet to actually press my ECM buttons in anger :roll:

You can never tell with POS warfare unless you have a record of what POS was in reinforced when, but I think that 66- and R97 are both ours for now: in R97 we destroyed 4 enemy towers and stole the other three while Soco tried to take them out of the system, which is very useful: that's not just them three POSs down but us three up, too.  I dunno if Soco have finally broken and are running or were just accepting the inevitable and looking to save something to use elsewhere in the fight.  They're down to single-figure participation now anyway, any time I'm on.

Tomorrow should have more news, one way or the other.

Edit: Oh and we killed a BoB carrier and murdered Rise, in separate incidents.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on August 09, 2007, 07:00:54 AM
It's also hard to get good arguments going at the moment since two of the three main Bob advocates (Joe and LC) have been pretty much absent since their 9-9 debacle and throughout their ensuing chain of losses: it seems quite a lot of Bob have pressing commitments in other areas these days.  Neep still shows up, but he needs to be less reasonable if we're to get a fight :x

My absence has nothing to do with the war. I just don't have enough time to play the game right now. I'm about to drive 60 miles just to pick up some things at home depot. I'll be back in the game as soon as this place is ready to sell.

I'm finally over 60mil sp now, and I'll be able to pilot both dreads and carriers by the time I return.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on August 09, 2007, 08:03:29 AM
Jesus. Thats a fuckload of SP.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Fordel on August 09, 2007, 01:29:19 PM
I think my EVE character had a grand total of six million...  probably a quarter of that is just learning   :-(


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 09, 2007, 04:09:19 PM
My absence has nothing to do with the war. I just don't have enough time to play the game right now. I'm about to drive 60 miles just to pick up some things at home depot. I'll be back in the game as soon as this place is ready to sell.

But the thing is, in a classic diffusion of responsibility, lots of Bob members are finding themselves really busy right now.  They'd all love to be in and fighting, they really would.  But that shelf won't hang itself.  And summer is a great time to start a new hobby like quilting.  So reluctantly they have to pass up on sitting at a PoS in 9-9 while GF systematically takes out all their POSs and modules, one by one.

See, Slayerik?  I did that first post for you, and it sorta worked.

Edit:

An awesome 20 hours or so: in a spectaclar piece of misinformation, our glorious leaders tricked everybody - including us - as to their intentions: with BoB putting one large tower into reinforced in D2, we were told to make sure we were in 66- for a major strategic op, a bottleneck system for the long route over there.  Everyone assumed that we'd turn up and defend the D2 tower (timing was good for us).  In fact, we turned round and headed to 9-9, where BoB have 29 deathstars in our station system: a mothership's worth of assets.  So we brought in the dreads and started sieging, non-stop.  Those of us in dreads and tanked torp ravens took down guns and towers while two groups camped the gates.

Bob and Finfleet pretty quickly worked out they'd been wrong-footed, and tried to jump in en masse, but got hammered on the gate.  After that one reverse, they just gave up completely: for almost the whole time we were able to move goons back in from 66- and elsewhere, even alone.

The deathstars are well enough set up, but stront is clearly in short supply and the POS gunnery has quite literally been the worst I have ever seen, for reasons that we needn't go into.

An interesting thing about this op is that it's been going on for almost a day straight already, starting just before Bob prime, with complete system lockdown and dreads pounding away with the occasional break of an hour, as well as being pretty much GF only.  That's significant.  Of course, Bob have shown that you can put a couple of dozen towers into reinforced if you like, but actually destroying any of them is a different matter.  Whether we fniish any off will be the next test.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 10, 2007, 03:23:02 AM
You can probably tell from the update above that I thought it was absolutely inevitable that Bob would manage to get their first large POS kill since Rev2, and their first of this campaign, when our single D2-EZ pos came out of reinforced this morning.  We're talking the key contested system of the moment, in the most horrible place for us to get to because of distance and bottlenecks.

However, we'd taken down the cynojammers and sent a 40+ gang down there this morning at a horrible time, and the tiny number of BoB+allies who showed up promptly backed down.  I am just a lowly pilot.  I can't pretend to understand what they were thinking.  The fleet they used to put that POS into reinforced did so at exactly the same time that our fleet of the same size was dealing with 7 SoCo large towers in a contested station system.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on August 10, 2007, 05:44:17 AM
Sesfan has decided that it's spring cleaning time in 9-9 again, apparently. v:|v. Probably should read 'still' instead of 'again', really, as it's essentially the same op which Endie's already mentioned.

Oh, and RISE's 'State of the Alliance' speech got leaked to The War Room. Hilarity ensued (cliff notes version: Not just a river in Egypt).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on August 10, 2007, 06:07:45 AM
Nice Endie, thats the way I like it....biased and proud.

Not sure why, but I'd almost resub to join Goons at this point. Heheh


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 10, 2007, 07:18:00 AM
The RISE state of the fleet address Simond mentions is utterly hilarious, as well as being totally weird.  If RISE members really believe it, then they are living in one surreal, steam-powered dreamscape.  They claim to have been invaded three times and beaten off each one: we have no idea what they mean, maybe a roaming gang went through or something.  But they do have one hell of a shock coming when we do invade.

For anyone with a wall-map of the south with little pins in it showing the front lines, that's the first of eight BoB POSes in 9-9 out of reinforced and popped.  And UNL just took sov in 66-.  And BoB members have started firesales of cheap battleships and stuff like that: they don't expect to get these stations back any time soon.

Edit: Simond, was that you (Itzena) in the 9-9 ops thread?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on August 10, 2007, 02:50:51 PM
Any chance you can post the rise state of the fleet?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 10, 2007, 03:19:35 PM
Are things going well for Bob while we blow up tower after tower?  Welll... not so much (http://www.urrite.com/EVE/yesletsjump.jpg).

And since you ask for the RISE state of the fleet, why should we in GF have all the fun of a massive wall of text containing barely a shred of fact?   Here you go.  Remember, you asked for it:

Quote
Pilots of Rise. Welcome to the August edition of our State of the Fleet. This will be a brief summation of our current military status at this point. Welcome also to our friends in KOS/Goon/CA/Sun/Invictus who will be reading this as well...hope you boys get enough troopies mustered to finally get that 6:1 edge on us that you all seem to need.

KW is our continued target. We have shattered KOS completely in Tenerifis. They can talk all they want, but the pure fact of the matter is that they are a shattered husk that stands absolutely no chance vs RISE combat pilots on their own. Enemy alliance after enemy alliance has been poured into the fight in Tenerifis to hold RISE at bay. We are still attacking. Three seperate Coalition counter-offensives into Feythabolis have been utterly and definatively smashed with the Coalition fleets shattered and their POS'es destroyed.

Knowing that KOS/CA/Sun together still had no chance vs RISE they have brought in yet another Coalition Alliance. Invictus has now joined the ranks of the enemy. Hi guys! We buried dozens of their griefer squads that were left over after their initial expulsion from the region, they've been sitting and brooding up in the drone regions now for months...planning...waiting....and now they're back.

We are outnumbered 3:1 in terms of total pilots. It's almost an even fight. The enemy has won the occasional victory, usually owing to sheer mass of numbers. They cannot stop our Raiders. Day in and day out they are punished by our reavers. KOS cries into the great darkness surrounding them and pleads for help. The Coalition replies by sending more and more troops into the area...and yet Tenerifis is still scourged by our Raiders.

8 weeks ago we began preliminary operations in KW knowing full well it would turn into the meat grinder in Tenerifis. The objective wasn't so much to take the system as it was to open a secondary front in the south and cripple any enemy production undertaken in the region with the side benefit of gaining us some new sovereign ground if we won.

Due to the efforts of RISE, nearly 4,000 hostile warships have been kept off the frontlines in Omist. Untold billions have been further spent by the enemy in trying to prop up KOS. Mercenaries were hired, massive fuel bills and lend lease. Not only have we crushed KOS into a whimpering pile of mewling ineffectiveness, but we've also aided the war efforts of our allies tremendously.

The War will soon be entering a new and bloodier phase, one that will be truly epic in scope. RISE combat pilots will be there to see it. While the Coalition was busy pissing around in 9-98 and now 66- and trying to keep Rise from bleeding Tenerifis dry, Alliance forces have slowly moved into place largely unchecked. The stage is set. Summer is nearing an end. You have all had a few relaxed months now to build up your reserves....now it's time to put them on the line.

We are exactly where we want to be. Our Allies are massed and ready. We have nearly unlimited targets within easy range of our home systems. Our industrial base is finally coming into its own and has never been as strong as it is now. In the coming weeks you will all have the opportunity to see large scale combat the likes of which EVE has never seen (weee yeah i know de-synchs and lag.

Will KW fall quickly? No. It was always known that it wouldn't fall quickly. Owing to the porous nature of these public boards most of this was never told to our pilots, so many of you simply assumed our offensive had stalled. Some of you may sit and look at KW and wonder why we haven't taken it as of yet. The wonder isn't that we haven't taken it yet, the wonder is the sheer amount of effort and money the enemy has gone through in order to merely hold onto it. KW is a bleeding wound in Tenerifis and I fully intend to keep twisting the knife. Will it be the burial grounds of the Coalition in Tenerifis? Time, and the resolve of the combat pilots in RISE will determine that.

Two weeks ago KOS command issued glorious and gloating orders to its members to prepare for the destruction of RISE! Friends were coming and our doom was all but assured! Two weeks later their battered survivors huddle in their stations and wait for yet more reinforcements to arrive. Invictus has come, let us greet them warmly my fellow pilots.

In the dark months this spring RISE fought for its very existance. Enemy deathstars littered our home space and wave after wave of enemy fleets hammered away at us. At one point we could field barely a dozen battleships and most of our offensive operations were conducted with T1 Cruisers and light assets. Yet we fought on. With less than half the strength RISE now musters our Fleets still responded to the call. Now when mustered our BS fleet can number in the scores. HACS and Recons now escort those heavies instead of the few cruisers and frigs we could muster this past spring.

Our belts stood largely untouched as we spent hour on hour hunting the enemy griefer squadrons that were in system or repelling the constant attacks. Now the belts are stripped nearly daily. Our industrial boys are churning out warships in a nearly constant stream. Our logisitics people led by Aves and Coolgamer have performed miracles. Feisty MX3 and mighty Carbide have begun churning out goods in ever increasing numbers. Our markets are the best in the South, bar none. Our numbers have nearly doubled. We had survived the onslaught. Once we had any breathing space we went on the offensive.

KW will continue to be contested. RISE faces 3,606 enemy with our 1,230. 3:1 odds and we haven't budged an inch. 3:1 odds and its all the enemy can do to hold us at bay. 3:1 odds with the enemy leadership constantly lying to their member corps. Threatening and fining them. Lies on top of lies on top of lies to keep the truth from their members and potential recruits. 3:1 and Rise Raider squadrons still prowl all of Tenerifis and lay waste to the enemy infrastructure and industry.

3:1, but for how long? Mighty Fleets are manuevering into position as I write this. We have stood against the tide and there is still a long road ahead of us. And at the end of that road, in the dusky little bar full of worn, grim travellers you will sit among your friends with heads held high and know that you were one of the few who stood against the many. Whether you are a pvp pilot who constantly joins the action with the best they have or an industrialist who has spent long hours churning out the tools of war needed by his fellows, you will all know that you did what many wouldn't. You will know that on the day the enemy, crying and wailing in their anguish over being unable to best you, called in the hordes....you did not flinch. You stood your ground and gave it everything you had.

You are the citizen soldiers of the Rise Alliance....and you are exactly where you want to be.

Ladies and gentlemen....let's shake the world.

RISE ABOVE!

PS Finfleet just joined BoB, and were allowed to stay intact.  Barrel: scraped.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vedi on August 10, 2007, 03:50:16 PM
What is the story with KoS then? I see they hold some space in Tenerifis, but their history isn't exactly stellar, so for the uninformed outsider it isn't obvious that RISE couldn't beat them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 10, 2007, 04:19:32 PM
What is the story with KoS then? I see they hold some space in Tenerifis, but their history isn't exactly stellar, so for the uninformed outsider it isn't obvious that RISE couldn't beat them.

RISE's allies are Bob, corm, RMF and ISS.  KOS's allies are Goons, RA, TCF and the like.  Draw whatever conclusions you like about the outcome of that one.

Edit: we put 8 bob deathstars into reinforced.  We killed them all.  Bob launched a bunch of attacks and got repulsed with heavy BS losses for them and their pets.  Our last kill of the night was Lady Scarlet.  It couldn't get any better*.

*On the prompting of Merusk, i am forced to admit that a number of preferable scenarios do exist.  His involve motherships and titans; mine involve hot twins.  His point stands, however.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on August 10, 2007, 05:32:33 PM
It couldn't get any better.

Lies.

You could've killed a mothership/ titan, too.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Megrim on August 10, 2007, 10:55:02 PM
Who is Lady Scarlet and why is the killing thereof a good thing?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 11, 2007, 01:32:34 AM
Who is Lady Scarlet and why is the killing thereof a good thing?

Lady Scarlet is one of BoB's fleet commanders, and one who we are always delighted to see in charge of their forces.  She is also one of those "guys, guys, I'm a girl, guys, did I endlessly say I was a girl?  Guys?" types who flirts endlessly with anything with an internet-space-pulse.  Since she chose to raise the subject (repeatedly), I feel allowed to mention that she is just the size and level of attractiveness you would expect of a female who attention-whores in an internet space-game.  It's like when the accused claims to be of good character or a politician wheels out his wife as evidence of his family values: those subjects then become open to discussion.

She also then petitions endlessly for just about anything, effectively griefing a group of GMs not often accused of pro-Goon sympathies to the point one of them made an announcement in local "Guys, Lady Scarlet's weight problem is NOT open for discussion."  Not professional - well out of order, in fact - but much appreciated.

As an aside, if you remember the big blob that follows goonfleet around, showing where in the galaxy masses of ships have been destroyed over the last 24 hours?  There are a portion of goons who refer to that huge red blob as "Lady Scarlet".

On the other hand, her treatment by Goons is considerably better than how we act towards Dungar and Apple Boy, and they're on our side.  Only nominally, in the case of Apple Boy (directly responsible for two of my ship deaths).  It's all just a series of petty, childish in-jokes, but then hey: Goons.


Title: Re: War
Post by: gimpyone on August 11, 2007, 01:35:53 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/00/Reloaded2.jpg/180px-Reloaded2.jpg)
Goons = Snake-eyes


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 12, 2007, 07:34:49 AM
News from the IAAAC/FIX front.

After some FUBAR's, SNAFU's and things I blame on Tyraxx, FIX continues to hold off the barbarians in 49-U. BOS had towers with no strong. Tyraxx put up small towers with no FUEL. There seems little interest in trying to put up proper towers, or kill FIX ones.

Meanwhile AAA with IAC support killed(?) some towers in ED-, but I have no idea what happened.

Tyraxx has stopped posting updates, I think because  a)he posted them to SHC and didn';t be bothered to tell IAC members what was happening (so some IAC rabble yelled at him) and b)we're not getting anywhere.

My current theory is the RSF is using FIX as Army group Centre of the Russian front after Stalingrad (9-9?): put pressure on the front and draw away reservers (MC playing the part of a panzer army) while the main force cleans up the Cauceses (Omist).

The question is, if IAC stops attacking 49-U, will MC redeploy to an offensive posture (attacking Deep Catch) or will they help BoB in a more direct manor.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 13, 2007, 03:29:49 AM
Another good weekend (edit: which could still go wrong!): SoCo got told to pack up their stuff by Bob last week, at which point one of them posted on the Eve-O forums claiming that their new-Confederate alliance had been ruined by the arrival of black people (http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=573822).  The result was that 0OY was up for contention: RA were due to get sov today but only had 3 out of 7 POSes in station, so it will switch back soon unless we blow another one up.  We duly reinforced them all, and they've been coming out over the past 12 hours or so.  The first two times we trundled over there to find that Bob were sitting on a gate in R97 with a couple of titans, 4 motherships, a bunch of carriers and a decent-sized support fleet.  In the context of this POS war, that's the equivalent of screaming "don't come any nearer I've got a gun!" in a shrill squeal.

So we turned round and put more of their 9-9 towers into reinforced.  Who knows, maybe they'll manage once more and save the last tower that came out in the last hour or so.  Certainly every advantage is with them.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on August 13, 2007, 03:53:10 AM
Another good weekend: SoCo got told to pack up their stuff by Bob last week, at which point one of them posted on the Eve-O forums claiming that their new-Confederate alliance had been ruined by the arrival of black people (http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=573822).  The result was that 0OY was up for contention: RA were due to get sov today but only had 3 out of 7 POSes in station, so it will switch back soon unless we blow another one up.  We duly reinforced them all, and they've been coming out over the past 12 hours or so.  The first two times we trundled over there to find that Bob were sitting on a gate in R97 with a couple of titans, 4 motherships, a bunch of carriers and a decent-sized support fleet.  In the context of this POS war, that's the equivalent of screaming "don't come any nearer I've got a gun!" in a shrill squeal.

So we turned round and put more of their 9-9 towers into reinforced.  Who knows, maybe they'll manage once more and save the last tower that came out in the last hour or so.  Certainly every advantage is with them.
Not surprising. BoB was really overextended once their Titans were nerfed. I'm surprised they're fighting over 9-9 at all, but I suspect that's mostly to keep everyone occupied while they work up how much space they can consolidate and hold without their Titans.

And then, you know, start consoldiating it and getting the Sov bonuses while everyone else is dicking around in 9-9 and a few other areas.

Which all makes sense, considering the new Sov stuff is equivilant to fortifications and trench warfare -- BoB doesn't have the resources, man-power, or pre-planning to tie up all the systems it was cavorting around when Titans were unnerfed. So they let 9-9 and a few other systems drag on while they fortify as much of what they can, before beating a hasty retreat.

It's not really surprising -- their primary battlefield advantage was taken away, their foes gained a significant edge (numbers mean more now and BoB is seriously outnumbered) and the whole way the war is fought changed. BoB doesn't have the resources to push anywhere until they get their own territory forted up and protected. Frankly, these changes might have stalemated the whole damn war -- once the lines settle in, I wouldn't be surprised to find both sides unable to really move.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 13, 2007, 04:13:41 AM
Bob aren't fighting on in 9-9: they just can't realistically get those towers out.

Also, you must have been reading Dianabolic's nonsense on Scrapheap Challenge or something: Bob are huge now, as they've been accepting huge numbers of people.  Look at the Outpost Alert site for stats on their numbers.  It's just a shame that all the people they accept have come from losing sides in their previous battles.  RISE is also massive, as are several other Bob-aligned grups, most of whom are now fighting on their home territory, with short supply routes.

Bob's problem isn't size, so much as the fact that their numbers aren't turning out for alarm-clocked strategic ops that still fail.  Of course, that might be different with their massive 18-hour stretch camping O0Y today.  It's probably the most important system in Feyth, so they seem to be doing all they can, for sure.

Edit:  maybe you're right about them setting up defences and the const sov changes.  But remember that they and their allies have had level 3 const sov in every system we've taken so far, with cyno jammers in the whole lot.  Only const 4 will give them more of an advantage, and while Bob are the only one of the big alliances not to have any sov-4-ready constellations, I'm sure that they'll manage that eventually.  We'll learn a lot about what to do when we take on RISE in their sov-4 capital const, probably the most defensible in the game (the RIT triangle, with only one way in).


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on August 13, 2007, 04:27:20 AM
Bob aren't fighting on in 9-9: they just can't realistically get those towers out.

Also, you must have been reading Dianabolic's nonsense on Scrapheap Challenge or something: Bob are huge now, as they've been accepting huge numbers of people.  Look at the Outpost Alert site for stats on their numbers.  It's just a shame that all the people they accept have come from losing sides in their previous battles.  RISE is also massive, as are several other Bob-aligned grups, most of whom are now fighting on their home territory, with short supply routes.

Bob's problem isn't size, so much as the fact that their numbers aren't turning out for alarm-clocked strategic ops that still fail.  Of course, that might be different with their massive 18-hour stretch camping O0Y today.  It's probably the most important system in Feyth, so they seem to be doing all they can, for sure.
Actually, I've just been reading this thread. It seems pretty simple.

Once upon a blue moon, BoB had Titans. They could jump into systems, hide in a single POS shield, and remotely blow the shit out of anyone else in the system. They had several of them, so they could do it ever 20 minutes or so. Which meant any battle in a system where BoB owned a POS BoB had a gigantic advantage.  They had mobility, they had safe doomsdays, and any large fleet wishing to engage them was going to eat a doomsday or two before BoB's own fleet warped in. And BoB had lots of dreads, and their enemies couldn't target BoB's support with DD's nearly as well as BoB could hit theirs.

So BoB could take systems much more easily than anyone else could. They could leapfrog around, causing havoc -- their Titans were death (or at least a lot of hurt) to the counter-dread fleets their enemies wanted to use to defend in POS warfare.

Then everything changed -- Titans became dangerous to use. They had to be right there. They got locked down when they fired. Moreover, systems slowly started being able to prevent those bloody things from jumping in once they had enough Sov. Worse yet, there was a desynch bug -- random and it hit both sides, but if you were smaller than your foe, and relied on more expensive ships, it's a bug that cut you deeper than your foe.

So BoB needs fleets of dreads to take POSes -- but needs support fleets to protect them, because their Titans can't. (Which means more pilots). They're over-extended -- they relied on mobility of their Titans and dreads to hold systems, rather than the equivilant of garrisons. They can make big, pretty fleets -- but they can't fight like they're used to, can't use the tactics they're equipped for, and they can't cover the territory they have.

So they pull back. Readjust their lines. Fight pointless holding actions to make sure their enemies doesn't stab too deep while they try to figure out what to do next. And they recruit -- because they need pilots. Two Titans were enough to protect a fleet of Dreads anywhere in the system -- but now they need carriers, motherships, battleships, and the like.

For awhile, they were acting like rifleman facing Roman infantry -- numbers didn't matter, because their bullets were shredding the Romans before they got close. And even when the Romans got archers, the bullets were still more effective -- then, one day, gunpowder stopped working.....


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 13, 2007, 04:40:16 AM
So you're saying that Eve is a lot like the Island in the Sea of Time books?

But yes, that sounds a good bit more accurate.  But you're missed out the link where your italicised "this" is.  Unless you just meant you've now read this thread?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on August 13, 2007, 04:49:30 AM
So you're saying that Eve is a lot like the Island in the Sea of Time books?

But yes, that sounds a good bit more accurate.  But you're missed out the link where your italicised "this" is.  Unless you just meant you've now read this thread?
I meant that the vast bulk of my war information -- most days all of it -- comes from this particular thread. I'm not anywhere near contested space in the game, and my corp has nothing to do with it at all.

But it seems pretty simple -- BoB's whole warplan and tactics (specifically their tactics regarding their foes numerical superiority) where built around Titans, by the time the nerf bat swung. That + Sov changes means BoB, even with heavy recruiting, has too much space and too few resources (pilots, POS, supplies, etc) to protect it. So, net result -- they have to contract and fortify before they have any chance of expanding again. Redswarm, on the other hand, didn't suffer nearly as much because they weren't so Titan intensive and because, frankly, they were losing territory before the nerf -- they had pilots, resources, and logistics to hold more territory than they had at that point.

BoB -- whether by plan or simply by default -- is trading space for time. Whether that will be a good trade for them, in the long run, I couldn't say. I'm obviously not privvy to their war plans or have knowledge of their resources, so I have no idea if the latest stand they're taking is good or bad for them.



Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 13, 2007, 06:27:57 AM
BoB -- whether by plan or simply by default -- is trading space for time. Whether that will be a good trade for them, in the long run, I couldn't say. I'm obviously not privvy to their war plans or have knowledge of their resources, so I have no idea if the latest stand they're taking is good or bad for them.

There's really no evidence that Bob is doing anything ilke "trading space for time".  They have repeatedly made all-out efforts to roll us back, since their POS-spamming in Detorid and their two-day alarm-clock ops in 9-9, and they've just outright failed each time.  On this occasion, it looks like they've just nicked a result in 0OY, by deploying a multi-supercap fleet against 50 RSF post-downtime.  We got the tower into armour when DT struck, and some hilarious tower-password issues have knocked our numbers down further.  Of course, we have 30 days to finish the job, now...

Anyway, Bob managing to actually defend a tower from destruction (and presumably to take one of RA's tonight, unless something very odd happens) has one positive spin-off: perhaps Joe or LC will feel encouraged enough to post about their victory after weeks of lurking in the other threads.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Vinadil on August 13, 2007, 07:14:54 AM
Morat's theories present an interesting possibility for those of us who are complete lurkers here (I live well within Empire space myself and am not even IN an active Corp at the moment).

That possibility is that everything over these last couple of months that has appeared to be "all-out" offensives from BoB has merely been a stalling effort by some of their more committed.  What if, when the time comes, they bring 50-100% more ships?  What if there is this large reserve that has been taking time off for summer activities, etc., and when they come back we will being to see the true size/power of the BloB?  I know that Morat is saying something quite different, but this is something that came to mind while reading the last couple of pages of posts.

If I were betting I would not give that theory very good odds... but it sure would make for a good story if it were true.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 13, 2007, 08:05:55 AM
It's a well-known guide that you should never assume conspiracy where ineptitude is a reasonable explanation.  You have to remember that we've blown up or stolen almost sixty of Bob's towers as part of their retreat.  That would pay for a couple of motherships, half a titan or an outpost to give them sov 4 in a capital system.  Big money when their logistics guys are scrabbling around taking down towers from one system to shore up another.

Also, look at stuff like today: before downtime, numbers were even.  Yet an almost purely goonfleet op saw us outkill Bob on the only meaure that they care about: battleships.  Here is the outcome of the largest engagement at their POS, with no supercaps deployed, between even fleets (although they had carriers on-grid) and with no lag: Bob lost tempest, apoc, megathron, mega, eagle, mega, tempest, sabre, heretic. All Bob, no pets.  Our losses in the same time fight were rifter, rifter, rifter, rifter, vigil, buzzard.  We were very annoyed that we'd not managed to finsish them off, as it should have been much worse.

Apply a bit of Occam's razor here: they're just doing badly.  Yes, they'll raise their game.  Yes, there will be successes on both sides.  No, we don't know what the outcome will be in the medium term.  But for now, Bob are heavily diluted by their useless losers llike Shinra, and are flailing around whenever they cannot hide behind their supercaps.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 13, 2007, 10:45:14 AM
Small IAC update: ISS POS in 49-U destroyed and REPLACED (allegedly with fuel this time) with no problems or interference. MC was too busy camping HED with 3 ships.

Granted FIX still has more towers, but BOS has pulled out and gave their towers to IAC.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on August 13, 2007, 03:02:46 PM
lol 10min lag.
And there is less than 150 of us - how many did you bring?

Edit:
355 in local and that's after RSF received some seeerious spanking and ran to their POS. Killmails incoming.
Edit2:
Goon total was aparrently 350, with titan and other awesome stuff.

Battle: http://www.killboard.net/fleetbattle/1040/
Post Battle cleanup: http://www.killboard.net/fleetbattle/1041/



Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on August 13, 2007, 03:08:07 PM
Wah?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on August 13, 2007, 03:16:01 PM
BoB verus RSF, big fight in 0OY at the moment.


Title: Re: War
Post by: MahrinSkel on August 13, 2007, 03:40:21 PM
Small IAC update: ISS POS in 49-U destroyed and REPLACED (allegedly with fuel this time) with no problems or interference. MC was too busy camping HED with 3 ships.

Granted FIX still has more towers, but BOS has pulled out and gave their towers to IAC.
Generally, allies pulling *out* is not considered a strategic gain.  Were they really that bad?  Anyway, AAA opened a second theater in ED- over the weekend, putting 5 POS there into reinforced on Thursday.  4 out of the 5 were saved (really bad stront timing on the first one), at one point we had more carriers in system than the enemy had BS, a total *wall* of carriers repaired one POS to 50% in less than 30 minutes.  4 carriers were lost, 2 as an object lesson in why Jump Bridges are not completely safe when the enemy has 50+ BS in system.  Friday night, a tower hand-off in 3-F turned very dramatic, when AAA recons shot the hauler as it came to scoop and relaunch the tower, then they scooped the tower themselves.  In the end, we got the moon covered again (I suicided a covert to get it online), and IAC wound up losing a carrier, net gain for the good guys (360M worth of tower for 1.5-2B worth of carrier).

ED- falling would be very symbolic but not the mortal wound it would have been 6 months ago (we have 3 other stations now, and ED- hasn't been very useful as a base for months).  And I don't see 49-U falling, IAC really can't do it without AAA, and AAA can't do both at once.  Really, IAC's problem is that Tyrrax is *too* clever, the byzantine schemes that serve him so well politically become Gordian knots of complexity strategically, which then become victims of the Alexandrian solution, as brute force severs some essential thread.  And who is *paying* for those billion-ISK ePeen rare ships he keeps losing, is he that rich?

--Dave


Title: Re: War
Post by: Morat20 on August 13, 2007, 09:17:48 PM
BoB -- whether by plan or simply by default -- is trading space for time. Whether that will be a good trade for them, in the long run, I couldn't say. I'm obviously not privvy to their war plans or have knowledge of their resources, so I have no idea if the latest stand they're taking is good or bad for them.

There's really no evidence that Bob is doing anything ilke "trading space for time".  They have repeatedly made all-out efforts to roll us back, since their POS-spamming in Detorid and their two-day alarm-clock ops in 9-9, and they've just outright failed each time.  On this occasion, it looks like they've just nicked a result in 0OY, by deploying a multi-supercap fleet against 50 RSF post-downtime.  We got the tower into armour when DT struck, and some hilarious tower-password issues have knocked our numbers down further.  Of course, we have 30 days to finish the job, now...

Anyway, Bob managing to actually defend a tower from destruction (and presumably to take one of RA's tonight, unless something very odd happens) has one positive spin-off: perhaps Joe or LC will feel encouraged enough to post about their victory after weeks of lurking in the other threads.
That's trading space for time -- it doesn't matter if that's their intention (like someone sat down and planned it all oiut or something) or if it's just how it ended up. They're fucking around in 9-9 and a few other places that they obviously can't win now (but were fucking rolling prior to the nerf), but aren't giving up on. In return, Redswarm isn't pushing deeper into BoB space.

I'm sure they'd prefer more success in their efforts to stall in 9-9, but as long as it's still contested you're fighting there while Sov timers continue on in BoB space. (And yes, in Goonspace and RAspace and all that).

It's not a genius tactic -- it's what happens when you're overextended and get hammered because of it -- you give ground grudgingly while rapidly forting uip behind your lines.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 14, 2007, 12:45:54 AM
lol 10min lag.
And there is less than 150 of us - how many did you bring?

Edit:
355 in local and that's after RSF received some seeerious spanking and ran to their POS. Killmails incoming.
Edit2:
Goon total was aparrently 350, with titan and other awesome stuff.

Battle: http://www.killboard.net/fleetbattle/1040/
Post Battle cleanup: http://www.killboard.net/fleetbattle/1041/

As foretold by prophecy, Joe actually turns up after this one!  At least you can tell how well the war is going for us that you post one update out of the last 45 days of the campaign.. nyuck!

Anyway, yes, we got spanked, and teamspeak was laughable: "can anyone who is in a tackler and reckons that they could actually get a point on someone speak up, you can speak on teamspeak..... [20 second wait] ... Can anyone actually hear me?".  Bob dealt with the lag better.

We should clear up one thing though: we had 170 at our highest count.  I had all the time in the world to do the maths  :lol:.  We know where the 350 comes from, though: Dianabolic has revealed on Scrapheap Challenge that they get our figures from teamspeak, which might work for Bob but doesn't for us.  Sometimes as many as a quarter of the people on our TS server are no longer even subscribed to the game, for one thing.  Oh, and the titan was one system away, jumpbridged us in and went to do other stuff: most of our allies had other, important business, and this battering was pretty much of GF.

We gambled on an unprepared system that came up as a bonus opportunity when SoCo was chucked out, and for the first time in half a dozen campaigns we got a kicking for our troubles.  It would be a brave member of Bob who bet his k/d ratio on still having it in a month when the cyno jammers come back.

Edit: Joe, by the way, you know that if you say that local is 355, and that you had 150, and that the Goons brought 350, you have a serious mathematcal quandary?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 14, 2007, 01:13:50 AM
That's trading space for time -- it doesn't matter if that's their intention (like someone sat down and planned it all oiut or something) or if it's just how it ended up. They're fucking around in 9-9 and a few other places that they obviously can't win now (but were fucking rolling prior to the nerf), but aren't giving up on. In return, Redswarm isn't pushing deeper into BoB space.

I'm sure they'd prefer more success in their efforts to stall in 9-9, but as long as it's still contested you're fighting there while Sov timers continue on in BoB space. (And yes, in Goonspace and RAspace and all that).

It's not a genius tactic -- it's what happens when you're overextended and get hammered because of it -- you give ground grudgingly while rapidly forting uip behind your lines.

When you are getting gradually pushed back while trying to stop your enemy then that's not "trading space for time", that's "retreating".  Trading space for time is a voluntary thing, whereas Bob (as shown in 0OY today) really do not want to be beaten again and again.

And the 9-9 thing really isn't what you describe: Bob would whip those towers out of there in a second if they could.  They're not keeping them there to cause us trouble, because they do no such thing.  In POS warfare they are utterly useless.  They have to keep fuelling them because otherwise *we* get them.  They can't pull them out because we'd steal them.  They can't send a fleet in to retreive them because they, unlike us, simply cannot operate under cyno-jammers: the losses involved are contrary to what passes for their tactical doctrine, and ni any case we saw what happened in the last four big 9-9 engagements without cyno-jammers: all-out murder.

And as regards RSF not "pushing deeper into BoB space", have you seen the maps?  The front has moved from Detorid back to Tenerifis, then into Omist and now Feythabolis.

Re 0OY, and away from trolling Joe, these things happen.  We can't complain at taking a beating today, after two months of straight success.  Bob managed to keep numbers advantages and supercap participation in a system for almost 36 hours: it's not sustainable but it is very impressive.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on August 14, 2007, 02:08:14 AM
Meanwhile, in Paragon Soul:
Quote
[05:53:59] Kirazk > 2007.08.14 05:52:36 Notify The station The LX5KW Exotic Dancer Training Academy has been captured by The Knighthawks corporation!
Translation: FREGE just took control of two BoB systems & a station with no opposition because BoB were busy holding the line in 0OY.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on August 14, 2007, 02:26:40 AM
0OY is going to be interesting, it's been BoB's first strategic victory in weeks.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on August 14, 2007, 04:48:22 AM
If my maths bad, then your reading even worse - I said there 350 in local after battle was over and most of you ran away to r97 or were either podded
I was inactive till recently and I try to comment on stuff I have actually seen or have decent intel about - rewriting stuff from internal forums isn't cool in my book.

BTW, BoB recently upgraded their killboard to contain fleetbattles, so next time you're reporting on some groundbreaking victory - provide us a link (I'm not saing that fuck up doesn't happen, just that your RSF friends have bad habit of withholding their loses). 


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on August 14, 2007, 05:28:46 AM
All killboards are inaccurate.

Especially ones that don't include 'death of pets' and whatnot ;). I don't even play anymore, but I remember when I used to fly around in small gank squads in 0.0 I would check the KBs of many of my victims afterwards. People just don't always report loses.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 14, 2007, 06:17:18 AM
Oh yeah, from now on I'll be sure to add links to Bob's killboard, because in pos warfare Bob's inflated, pet-free k/d ratio really matters to us a lot.  Almost as much as it did when LV and -V- maintained even better k/d ratios.

Look, you actually won a fight that matters and saved some POSes for once: enjoy that!  Or interpret it the way you love to and say you now have a 5, no a 3/57 POS k/d ratio!  Don't fall into the trap of thinking that killing ships and losing systems is winning.  I don't know my k/d ratio, but I am certain it is awful: laughably, incredibly bad.  But I don't care!  Between BoB and RSF, the losers will not give up because they ran out of internet spaceships.

Edit: I gave them two extra POS kills by mistake.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Simond on August 14, 2007, 06:59:27 AM
I'm skeptical that BoB's actions did anything other than delay the inevitable, anyway. Yep, it was a clear victory for them this weekend, but I'm not sure that it'll be maintained in the medium-to-long term.

If the transition from SoCo to BoB had been managed a little smoother somehow things might well be different, but BoB are now stuck babysitting a low-moon-count system with no cyno-jammer for at least a month and I find it extremely unlikely that they'll be able to maintain their present turnout (multiple titans & motherships, dozens of carriers & dreads, a full support fleet for the above, etc) for that length of time without weakening their defences elsewhere. Especially given that the lack of cynojammer is practically inviting the Reds to park a sizable dread fleet in a nearby system and wait for someone in BoB to have a momentary lapse of concentration.

RSF just needs to be lucky once - BoB need to be good all the time, 23/7, for a month. ;)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 14, 2007, 10:49:37 AM
So we're now Post Stalingrad, and gearing up for Kursk? :)

AAA hasd 2 POS's in reinforced in FIX system of ED-. 2 POS's saved, Cyro Jammer down again, and the clone facility is down in the station.

As far as I can tell, FIX made no attempt to stop it.

Lag was bad for me, 5-10 minutes to do anything in system.

Total of about 150-200 in system.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on August 14, 2007, 01:27:21 PM
Oh yeah, from now on I'll be sure to add links to Bob's killboard, because in pos warfare Bob's inflated, pet-free k/d ratio really matters to us a lot.  Almost as much as it did when LV and -V- maintained even better k/d ratios.
Typical goon POS rabble. We care about K/D ratios, you seem to care awfully lot about POS kills.

I was referring to your recent gloating about fleet fight where you claimed 4 BOB BS down and few goon frigs being only losses.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on August 14, 2007, 05:56:07 PM
Oh yeah, from now on I'll be sure to add links to Bob's killboard, because in pos warfare Bob's inflated, pet-free k/d ratio really matters to us a lot.  Almost as much as it did when LV and -V- maintained even better k/d ratios.
Typical goon POS rabble. We care about K/D ratios, you seem to care awfully lot about POS kills.

I was referring to your recent gloating about fleet fight where you claimed 4 BOB BS down and few goon frigs being only losses.

It probably takes around 40 BS kills to equal the cost of one Deathstar. I don't think you can really say that POSs don't count. The problem is how they accomplish their kills/saves. They use something even more "unbalanced" than the untouchable death machines they cried about just a few months ago. The invulnerable lag monster.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 14, 2007, 08:32:53 PM
Late update to my previous note: Following the operation to save 2 AAA POS's, news was received than an ISS Wyvern class Mothership was about. Count Tasessine's brought his MS aginast an IAC gang in 49-U(?) and was engaged. Unfortunately it had not considered for IAC (mabye AAA too?) reinforcements quickly arriving. An MC Nynx class Mothership also arrived.

The MC MS left (escaping bubbles again!). 2 Carriers also escaped.  The Count lost his MS as did 3 other carriers and a lot of suppot ships. IAAAAC held the field.

I wounder how long ISS will keep helping MCFIX after losses such as this.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Ratadm on August 14, 2007, 09:27:23 PM
I think pos's are a bigger deal than their material costs.  Due to their effects on sov I suspect leaders on either side would trade a pos's worth of ships to kill an enemy pos and be allowed to put up their own in it's place.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Drogo on August 14, 2007, 11:26:50 PM
I agree that the material cost of a POS can outweigh its material cost in ISK compared to ships. I think that in the case of motherships or titans lost that the material cost has a serious effect. While losing some batteships to save or destroy a POS might be seem like a good deal, losing a mothership is an entirely different ballpark. I doubt that all of the FIX POS in that system equaled the cost of that mothership. So while losing ships to save a POS might be in general a good idea, when it comes to supercapitals it is a losing proposition in my mind.

Edit: Change my argument after rereading the previous post.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Chenghiz on August 14, 2007, 11:51:00 PM
The invulnerable lag monster.

How does this not cut both ways?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 15, 2007, 01:19:27 AM
If the Bob+pets side had only lost one mothership last night, then it would have been a very good night compared to losing two and  having one of them handed over by its (ex-EVOL) pilot to IAC (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=575860&page=1)...  That means the balance shifts by three motherships to us in a night.

On the upside for the oppressed Bobbits, Tyraxx will lose it soloing Tri or something.

I notice that Rens911 also took down a carrier, as befits the New Law in Empire.  All in all, though, it's turning out to be rather a good week after all!

The invulnerable lag monster.

How does this not cut both ways?

LC, like a lot of Bob pilots, hasn't logged in recently, and has no clue what fleet fights are like, who has been lagged out etc.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on August 15, 2007, 03:31:25 AM
The invulnerable lag monster.

How does this not cut both ways?

Simple - BoB uses tactics (think hit& run, flank attacks and such) and RSF rely on blobbing the hell of everyone.
With a 10min lag any organized/synced maneuvers are borderline impossible, while RSF's random mob work just as well.

If you're under fire, your faction/t2 fit can give few more minutes get out of the bubble and have tacklers taken out by anti-support. When the lag is such it takes more than those one-two minutes to issue a single command (or see what's going on, or that matter), you could as well go in in t1 fitted raven. or a frigate.   


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on August 15, 2007, 03:55:55 AM
The invulnerable lag monster.

How does this not cut both ways?

Simple - BoB uses tactics (think hit& run, flank attacks and such) and RSF rely on blobbing the hell of everyone.
With a 10min lag any organized/synced maneuvers are borderline impossible, while RSF's random mob work just as well.

If you're under fire, your faction/t2 fit can give few more minutes get out of the bubble and have tacklers taken out by anti-support. When the lag is such it takes more than those one-two minutes to issue a single command (or see what's going on, or that matter), you could as well go in in t1 fitted raven. or a frigate.   

I was thinking to myself, he can't possibly believe this, but then I remembered, hey it's the internet.

Can you define the exact number of ships that make a "blob"?  Is it 50, 100, 150, 200?  I'm assuming there's a set BoB policy that prevents their fleets reaching a "blob" in size because that would clearly be bad and result in the loss of e-honour points or something.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nevermore on August 15, 2007, 06:15:20 AM
Blob = number of ships BoB fields + 1


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on August 15, 2007, 07:58:00 AM
Blob is a lot of ships, in this context a lot more than opposing force has. Alternatively, bringing way more people that are necessary to achieve your goals.
If you see two enemies and bring a fleet of 50 to kill them, you're clearly blobbing them. When enemy has 100 and you bring 250, clear act of blobbage.

Besides, what's the point - I wrote that excessive lag nullifies advantages from tactics and your answer is "wtf is blob?"

Blob = number of ships BoB fields + 1
You know, that comment was just retarded.


And since were derailing, big lol @ "goon culture" of fucking up big time and pretending it's good laugh, shit and giggles. When you win an engagement we see a lot of chest beating, but when you lose it's never "we fucked up, see if I can do better" but instead every goonie goes into "lol internetspaceships".


Title: Re: War
Post by: cmlancas on August 15, 2007, 08:00:36 AM
I don't think Endie does that at all. Actually, I think he readily accepted that they sucked in their last mission and got their asses kicked.

Also, Nevermore's comment was a joke -- don't take your games so seriously sir!


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on August 15, 2007, 08:09:28 AM
"Fucking Indians keep zerging us!  GET SOME SKILL YOU FUCKING NEWBS!"  --  Last words of General Custer


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on August 15, 2007, 08:31:14 AM
Blob is a lot of ships, in this context a lot more than opposing force has. Alternatively, bringing way more people that are necessary to achieve your goals.
If you see two enemies and bring a fleet of 50 to kill them, you're clearly blobbing them. When enemy has 100 and you bring 250, clear act of blobbage.

Besides, what's the point - I wrote that excessive lag nullifies advantages from tactics and your answer is "wtf is blob?"


You mean two different things then. 

1. For want of a better phrase, you believe it's not "a fair fight" if one side outnumbers the other.

2. You also believe lag gives an advantage that combats BoB's tactics and more expensive ships and the reason RSF tries to bring as many ships as possible is to create lag.

My opinion on 1 is that's complete crap.  BoB is an organisation that only recruits from the highest SP characters and tries to present an image of flying the most expensive ships.  Therefore a fight with BoB on equal numbers will never be fair due to the more advanced ships and higher sp characters involved in a BoB fleet.  I have no problem with that, as I believe the whole concept of a fair fight in a war is stupid, however it's your propaganda that is whining about "fair fights" all the time when anyone with any sense sees that it's not possible to enforce numbers due to the current way POS warfare works.

Now moving on to point 2.

My opinion on 2 is that's complete crap.  The most recent battle on 0OY had 200 or so BoB camping the system with masses of fighters deployed, same as with FT when our side lost 40-50 capitals, the lag benefited BoB and BoB won.  Again I have no problem with BoB's tactics, it's the logical way to fight.  However I'd state the reason everyone (BoB and RSF) generally bring as many ships as possible to an engagement is not some complex mystery that needs to be solved, it's simple, to try and destroy the other fleet/gain control of the system.  The fact is the defending fleet has the advantage if they have the grid loaded and fighters deployed and that fact applies equally to both sides.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Nevermore on August 15, 2007, 08:47:46 AM
You know, that comment was just retarded.

I agree, crying about blobs is retarded.


Title: Re: War
Post by: WindupAtheist on August 15, 2007, 08:51:32 AM
1. For want of a better phrase, you believe it's not "a fair fight" if one side outnumbers the other.

Will Turner: You didn't beat me. You ignored the rules of engagement. In a fair fight, I'd kill you.
Jack Sparrow: That's not much incentive for me to fight fair, then, is it?

I :heart: this thread.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on August 15, 2007, 09:53:30 AM
MMmm. Doctrine of Overwhelming Force.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on August 15, 2007, 01:31:48 PM
Blob is a lot of ships, in this context a lot more than opposing force has. Alternatively, bringing way more people that are necessary to achieve your goals.
If you see two enemies and bring a fleet of 50 to kill them, you're clearly blobbing them. When enemy has 100 and you bring 250, clear act of blobbage.

Besides, what's the point - I wrote that excessive lag nullifies advantages from tactics and your answer is "wtf is blob?"


You mean two different things then. 

1. For want of a better phrase, you believe it's not "a fair fight" if one side outnumbers the other.

2. You also believe lag gives an advantage that combats BoB's tactics and more expensive ships and the reason RSF tries to bring as many ships as possible is to create lag.

My opinion on 1 is that's complete crap.  BoB is an organisation that only recruits from the highest SP characters and tries to present an image of flying the most expensive ships.  Therefore a fight with BoB on equal numbers will never be fair due to the more advanced ships and higher sp characters involved in a BoB fleet.  I have no problem with that, as I believe the whole concept of a fair fight in a war is stupid, however it's your propaganda that is whining about "fair fights" all the time when anyone with any sense sees that it's not possible to enforce numbers due to the current way POS warfare works.

Now moving on to point 2.

My opinion on 2 is that's complete crap.  The most recent battle on 0OY had 200 or so BoB camping the system with masses of fighters deployed, same as with FT when our side lost 40-50 capitals, the lag benefited BoB and BoB won.  Again I have no problem with BoB's tactics, it's the logical way to fight.  However I'd state the reason everyone (BoB and RSF) generally bring as many ships as possible to an engagement is not some complex mystery that needs to be solved, it's simple, to try and destroy the other fleet/gain control of the system.  The fact is the defending fleet has the advantage if they have the grid loaded and fighters deployed and that fact applies equally to both sides.

ad1. No idea where you got that from.
ad2. I would argue that bringing overly excessive force when it could be divided and better used elsewhere is a mistake. To clear confusion, we didn't have 200 with fighters in recent fight in 0oy, and FT fiasco was mostly a result of bad RSF leadership decisions. You don't warp directly into enemy fleet to offset loading lag and after actual battle begins, lag is equally bad for the guys who were there first and the ones who are dropping by.   


Title: Re: War
Post by: Slayerik on August 15, 2007, 01:39:12 PM
pew pew

pew pew




Title: Re: War
Post by: Nevermore on August 15, 2007, 01:40:11 PM
I would argue that bringing overly excessive force when it could be divided and better used elsewhere is a mistake.

So you're saying that if RSF would divide their forces they would have even more successes against BoB?  You should be glad they're blobbing then, instead of dividing up their forces for better use elsewhere.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Arthur_Parker on August 15, 2007, 02:04:48 PM
ad1. No idea where you got that from.
ad2. I would argue that bringing overly excessive force when it could be divided and better used elsewhere is a mistake. To clear confusion, we didn't have 200 with fighters in recent fight in 0oy, and FT fiasco was mostly a result of bad RSF leadership decisions. You don't warp directly into enemy fleet to offset loading lag and after actual battle begins, lag is equally bad for the guys who were there first and the ones who are dropping by.   

ad1.  I got that from you.
ad2.  According to one of your leaders Dianabolic you did have 200 (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=189974&highlight=#189974), I'm going to assume you aren't disputing the carriers had fighters deployed.

The problem as I see it is there's an invented term "the blob" and nobody wants to define exactly what it means or why it's bad.  The idea that you can have a fleet battle and bring only the number of ships needed to achieve your objective is silly.  You will not know the ship types nor the ship numbers of the enemy fleet in advance, the best you can hope for is a spy but that leads to faulty information such as Dianabolic's linked guess on RSF numbers based on teamspeak.  That's ignoring the fact that just shooting a few POS can take hours and any extra ships brought along only shorten that time.

If I'm wrong please feel free to expand upon BoB's method of making sure they don't "blob" and how many times you have seen someone turned away from a fleet battle because BoB already had enough ships.  Given the massive recruitment that BoB has undertaken in the past few weeks, forgive me for being sceptical.

Edit, typo


Title: Re: War
Post by: Merusk on August 15, 2007, 03:12:16 PM
ad2. I would argue that bringing overly excessive force when it could be divided and better used elsewhere is a mistake.

No.  That's why it's the Doctrine of Overwhelming force.  You take fewer losses overall because of better damage potential, lowered morale of the enemy,(server problems in EvE) etc.

The counter, however, is to throw meat at their grinder, accepting that they'll be lost because it's really just a distraction while simultaneously hitting the opponent in 2-3 other spots where they're vulnerable because of the singularity of their forces.

Eve, apparently, disallows this. That's a problem with the game, not the doctrine.
 
Where you're fucked is if they've got enough to bring overwhelming force AND defend more than you can attack.  At that point it's give-up and go guerrilla.  Something also not well-achieved in EvE.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 16, 2007, 01:40:07 AM
ad2. I would argue that bringing overly excessive force when it could be divided and better used elsewhere is a mistake.
The counter, however, is to throw meat at their grinder, accepting that they'll be lost because it's really just a distraction while simultaneously hitting the opponent in 2-3 other spots where they're vulnerable because of the singularity of their forces.

Eve, apparently, disallows this. That's a problem with the game, not the doctrine.
 
Where you're fucked is if they've got enough to bring overwhelming force AND defend more than you can attack.  At that point it's give-up and go guerrilla.  Something also not well-achieved in EvE.

Actually, this is why BoB has suffered, even this week.  The 0OY debacle was almost all goons (go figure), with some TCF and UNL there for a short while.  But RA were doing something very important and successful at the same time.  And FREGE were doing their guerilla thing and actually taking three systems and a station in Bob's home territory!

Fake Edit: The FREGE thing is just a deep-raiding strategy: we don't now have a logistically horrendous base in Delve to maintain!  But it all diverts Bob efforts, grinds them down, makes use of our numbers.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 16, 2007, 02:46:14 PM
Bob, using their "fancy titan" just as LC had us doing it at 0OY (ie not even in the same system), just attacked our fleet of almost equal size (counting space French we had about 20-25 more, but lol rifters, and RA and TCF reported being out of range), twice, in an attempt to stop a huge op we are running in one of our systems.

Results: massive numbers of bob battleships dead, but who cares?  I refuse to use some stupid killboard.net campaign thing even when we win hilariously.  Lag was harsh but manageable for both sides, judging from the behaviour of their faster ships.

Best result, quote from Bob member in gang passed on by GIA agent:

"Can someone please tell Dianabolic he is screaming?"

---

Edit we had 20-25 more, not 205!  Writing while on a mandatory-drunkness op is foolish at best...


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on August 16, 2007, 02:59:37 PM
just as LC had us doing it at 0OY

I did? Do goons have a titan now?


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 16, 2007, 03:01:01 PM
just as LC had us doing it at 0OY

I did? Do goons have a titan now?

Sorry LC, my bad: it was JoeTF who blessed our fleet with "a titan and other awesome stuff".

PS While I have your attention, why not suggest that Bob members post their losses?  One of my kills (Amon 'Chakai) has apparently decided that posting his Rokh loss would be too embarassing in this auspicious week for Finfleet.  That led me to check a few others... Finfleet seem a little shy.


Title: Re: War
Post by: LC on August 16, 2007, 08:08:48 PM
PS While I have your attention, why not suggest that Bob members post their losses?  One of my kills (Amon 'Chakai) has apparently decided that posting his Rokh loss would be too embarassing in this auspicious week for Finfleet.  That led me to check a few others... Finfleet seem a little shy.

I think I saw an angry post in the bob forums about not posting losses already.



Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 17, 2007, 01:08:08 AM
PS While I have your attention, why not suggest that Bob members post their losses?  One of my kills (Amon 'Chakai) has apparently decided that posting his Rokh loss would be too embarassing in this auspicious week for Finfleet.  That led me to check a few others... Finfleet seem a little shy.

I think I saw an angry post in the bob forums about not posting losses already.

Yeah, despite all the mandatory jibes, I've usually found the bob killboard posts my kills before other GF pilots do.  I wonder if Finfleet (it all seemed to be them) are a bit sensitive about not messing up their k/d in their first week?  They certainly had a big turn-out, as you'd expect in that first flush of enthusiasm.

Edit:

In somewhat lighter news, I assume everyone knows that Remedial, Official Eve CEO of the Year, walked off with a not-insubstantial part of our titan fund a few months ago.  Well, in an elaborate sting operation, Firstname Lastname managed to persuade Rem that he was, in fact, a slightly portly young lady with exotic tastes in threesomes and drugs answering an ad on Adult FriendFinder.  Cue much gag-inducing chat-based flirtation, stated willingness to drive hundreds of miles to "hook up", and a series of perfectly vile pictures sent in an effort t oentice said young, fictional hussy into an unforgettable but ultimately regretable liason.  Booyah: Firstname Lastname always gets his.

If you want to, you can see the thread Firstname Lastname posted on no less a forum than Eve-Online, but since it contained pictures of naked fat people and their oddly bending, tumescent members:

a) You have to use eve-search - it got yanked by GMs after scant seconds and Irefuse to be responsible for linking it
b) You must not be at work: I cannot stress this enough
c) You probably should reconsider, especially if you are cursed with vivid recollection or a photographic memory.


Title: Re: War
Post by: JoeTF on August 17, 2007, 07:27:08 AM
just as LC had us doing it at 0OY

I did? Do goons have a titan now?

Sorry LC, my bad: it was JoeTF who blessed our fleet with "a titan and other awesome stuff".

PS While I have your attention, why not suggest that Bob members post their losses?  One of my kills (Amon 'Chakai) has apparently decided that posting his Rokh loss would be too embarassing in this auspicious week for Finfleet.  That led me to check a few others... Finfleet seem a little shy.

If the kill comes from after FIN becoming part of BoB, e-mail one of FinFleet directors, I'm sure they will be delighted to know:)


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 17, 2007, 07:58:18 AM
I see some of them - including the guy I mentioned - trickling in now.  I imagine some people just loggoffskied to save pods, or in an attempt to save ships, and then wisely didn't log in till today and so didn't have access to the killmails to post.  Plus whatever internal peer-pressure was on them from people who did post their killmails will have counted.

The context which I should have posted in my first email but was too drunk to remember that some people might not know:

We started putting Bob POSes into reinforced in 9-9 yesterday, and killed the stront-timer as well.  We'd reinforced half the towers when our FC said that he was going to do something to get Bob to attack us.  We did what we were told and Bob gate-jumped next door and then jumped into our gatecamp within a couple of minutes.

After a couple of kinda one-sided engagements Bob were attritted to the point that they had to retire to a POS, and we reinforced the other half of their towers: 20 large deathstars and virtually every module outside the shields.  Quite a few have already come out of reinforced and all have been destroyed thus far. The op continues.

Edit: Op over for today: we have killed every single POS to come out today - 16 of them - and have four left over the weekend.  Sixteen in a day.  And they laughed when i trained torpedoes  :-D


Title: Re: War
Post by: Comstar on August 17, 2007, 03:28:10 PM
And on the lighter side of the news My Favorite Eve-O poster (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=577431) announced he had joined Goonfleet.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Chenghiz on August 17, 2007, 06:05:28 PM
He might as well have been in goonfleet already, heh.


Title: Re: War
Post by: cmlancas on August 17, 2007, 06:30:02 PM
He's The Mittani. Duh.


Title: Re: War
Post by: Endie on August 18, 2007, 01:08:13 AM
Well, destroying all those POSes sure was fun, but we knew our enemies wouldn't respect us unless we &