War

[Slayerik]

I think you are forgetting 4-0. Even though that wasn't a real 'battle', Black Ops raped AAA/Sys-K/Uk for an entire weekend for a couple hundred kills. Between that and getting fucked by Goonwaffe every so often AND losing ships in fleet battles, you will notice people slowly logging in less for alarm clocks.

GS has something to lose, their home...AAA just tried the 'Follow Molle' tactic and failed. I don't blame them for fighting CVA instead.

[Endie]

Setar, I didn't put that well.

In essence, what I am saying is that a whole bunch of AAA members believed that taking 49- was likely, and that that was at the very least a result of not being told otherwise by their leadership.  There is no way that some of the less gifted posters were ever going to be able to fake some of that stuff: they clearly believed it.  Not to mention that it's very hard not to hedge when posting about something that you know is just a gambit and will fail in itself.  I just don't buy that this was some Operation Fortitude-scale maskirovka.

And you don't get hundreds of people alarm-clocking if you say "now we're not going to win this one, guys, and we'll likely just get blueballed, but we'd like you to turn up til 7am local time so that IT can drop some iHubs in the unicorn constellation."

And Sys-K were certainly being told that this was the decisive battle that would crack open Goonswarm and lead to the fall of Delve.  We got the op threads.

[Jayce]

It seems to me that no one really knows, even now, what will work under the new sov rules.  No one has taken space (with serious opposition) since Dominion dropped.  Or am I forgetting something?

The two things that seem clear is that a) old-school single-system blobs don't work as well as they used to, and b) it's harder to go on extended deployments without leaving your space open.  C/D?

[setar]

Maybe it's just the pessimist in me, but I had no delusions that we'd be able to take the system IF it was actively defended. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try hard (including alarm clock ops), and we might have even gone for another round with Molle's help if it wasn't for the SBU stunt to which we clearly had no answer. Agree though that certainly a fair amount of folks felt disappointed or let down. We clearly *did* want 49-U, but even without getting it the op wasn't going to be pointless for all the reasons listed already.

Heck, if 49-U would have fallen that might have caused a bit of a headache to ZAF and given us an opening to Delve / Period Basis; the morale situation also would have been somewhat different.

Jayce: Pretty much this. We constantly keep running into new situations, and with server crashes messing up the situation even further I'm quite skeptic about large scale warfare plans right now. 

[Endie]

It seems to me that no one really knows, even now, what will work under the new sov rules.  No one has taken space (with serious opposition) since Dominion dropped.  Or am I forgetting something?

The two things that seem clear is that a) old-school single-system blobs don't work as well as they used to, and b) it's harder to go on extended deployments without leaving your space open.  C/D?

I kinda disagree.  Tri has taken one station system in the face of considerable opposition on the NC's western front, while Atlas has effectively taken two regions, the second one on the bounce but the first after reasonable defence from Razor and WI.

And old-school system blobs work massively better than they have since the first Bob vs Goonfleet war of 2007.  Get 800 people into a system in time and you have it for as long as you can stay awake.

Nathan Bedford Forrest's quote has never been more apt in Eve: "War means killing, and the way to kill is to get there first with the most men."

[slog]

It would appear that the strategy for IT is to bring overwhellming cap numbers and take R64 Moons from goonwarm.

If Molle can keep this up, I predict it will be more successful than ITs other attempts.  Do Goons just don't have the numbers to match a 180+ capfleet?

[setar]

Well, they were bored tonight at least. Two high-ends taken over (disclaimer: all information about IT comes from forums and chats, do not yell at me if I'm getting my facts twisted ;-) ).

[slog]

I think the goon attitude is "we have seen this before.  Molle brings lots of caps, the sky is falling, and ITT won't be able to maintain the momentum"

[setar]

I think the goon attitude is "we have seen this before.  Molle brings lots of caps, the sky is falling, and ITT won't be able to maintain the momentum"

And they'd probably be right. Still:

Tonight we repaired and reinforced our own POS in Sakht to get a more favorable timer tomorrow night.  IT had the advantage in numbers of capital ships, but we had an advantage in subcaps and they didn't make a move until most of our caps had left the system.  Afterwards, they reinforced our jump bridge in 1-S and are still active as of this post.  I have been assured by a member of IT that this is "just foreplay".

That particular POS also just died for a total of four high-ends that have changed hands. Just a tiny fraction of course, and we'll see whether they have the patience to see this through. Find it fascinating though, in a way: my commentary from.. 2007 (?) stated that a previously almost unknown entity called Pandemic Legion was having a bigger effect on Delve I than any other group -- by hitting POS infrastructure all over Delve whenever BOB was busy elsewhere, slowly costing them assets, forcing them to move around. Almost comical that Bob Mark III is now taking the same approach to weaken Goonswarm. In Delve.

[Sir T]

Well, they were bored tonight at least. Two high-ends taken over (disclaimer: all information about IT comes from forums and chats, do not yell at me if I'm getting my facts twisted ;-) ).

You don't turn up with 180 caps and want a fight. just like you don't jam 800 people in system to face off against 150 if you want a fight, as happened in Esoteria (Also see the first reaction to Goons doing drivebys was doomsdaying rather than calling in the fleet.) So claims of boredom are a little out of place. Boredom is what IT want, not fighting. Fighting risks losing.

Anyway we had a somewhat crappy turnout for whatever reason. I left early as I was exhausted and it looked like a wash, so no idea what happened for most of it.

[IainC]

Tonight's R64 losses are due almost entirely to internal issues within Goonswarm than a sudden tactical epiphany on the part of Molle and co. We lacked effective direction and our participation reflected that. We've not had a problem repelling boarders before this and I expect that if the current dukkha blows over, we won't see this happening too often in future either.

[setar]

Relax guys. I'm not suggesting Molle wants good fights. I'm merely providing updates on earlier reports: you reported how you repelled a few attacks and reinforced your own POS to ensure it's not kited. Bit odd that you then do not have enough folks around given the set timer, but sometimes stuff just happens.

[slog]

Relax guys. I'm not suggesting Molle wants good fights. I'm merely providing updates on earlier reports: you reported how you repelled a few attacks and reinforced your own POS to ensure it's not kited. Bit odd that you then do not have enough folks around given the set timer, but sometimes stuff just happens.

Stuff happens

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1257662

LOL Dominion.

[Phildo]

Apparently sov just dropped in all the Goonfleet systems in Delve, along with a lot of Wildly Inappropriate and Legion of xXDeathXx space.  It's all speculation right now, but if it's a bug then this is the best bug ever.  And if it's a spy, then holy shit this is the best way to lose Delve!

[setar]

Okay, this would be epic karma. And I don't have the faintest idea what this even means in a post-Dominion scenario...

[Phildo]

Well right now it means that anyone could come in and destroy our anchored TCUs, then claim our stations.  In fact, I believe your alliance is shooting H74 right now and IT- is doing the same in 1-SMEB.

Goonswarm directors are saying that we have enough isk in the wallet to cover the cost, so it wasn't that the bills weren't paid.  And the loss of sovereignty happened simultaneously, so it couldn't have been a single person offlining all the TCUs.

[setar]

See http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1257681:

It all started when I was bored and decided to make a name for myself. I thought that what could be better then getting spys in most if not all the major alliances and taking out their sov. Unfortunately I am not that good so you guys will have to do for now. Don't feel bad though you are not the only ones in this situation others will come when the moment is right. Other then that have fun and enjoy empire.

And for those of you who don't get it I got a spy in their alliances and got rid of their space. Fun times.

[Phildo]

Legion of death, ROL, Solar Fleet, WI, Shadow of Death, Ultima Rati0, Goonswarm, AAA citizens have all lost sov between 4:07 evetime and 4:15 evetime. GS has lost approximately 30 systems. We must scramble around and online/guard our TCUs as they online over the next 8 horus. No one has had a response from CCP yet.

[setar]

Seems no director rights were needed, all that was needed is:

Apparently it was an alliance wallet failure due to people messing with divisions, so might be legit, and stay for good.

[bhodi]

Copypasta from GM tickets on GS forums are showing a legitimate bug, not insider shenanigans. Of course, those posts could just be insider shenanigans. You never can tell. Getting "Delve'd" would be much more funny, however.

[setar]

My money is on an heinous act by CVA to distract us from Providence.
 

[Endie]

Drama.  Seems likely on balance to be a bug, given the lack of preparation by the hostiles, and given that nobody in their right mind would do this to us during US time: they'd do it at 0900 and have taken most of Delve by the time the US logs in.

If it is a bug, the fact that CCP doesn't do rollbacks and apparently has no tools to transfer sov means that they'd have to send everyone to their corners if they wanted to fix it.  Again, if it is yet another Dominion bug then whether they do that, or they simply say "lol solar interference" and let it ride they are clearly incompetent chucklefucks.

If it is not a bug then lol peripeteia for us and catharsis for Molle.  I would have waited ten more days to do it, though, because I have a sense of irony.

[Endie]

Our wallet still has cash and our logistics tabs have all their jump freighters.  I'm going to go all Cronkite here and call this one a bug.

[lac]

Since it happened in the span of a few minutes to multiple alliances it has to be a bug.

[Endie]

Or bu jinkan isn't trolling and it was a wallet division cock-up.  In which case lol fuck directors.

Edit: we also just lost something like 17 capitals in a misguided last stand on a gate in NOL, which will now fall after downtime.  ZAF, on the other hand, have been equally ballsy as fuck with the caps they could scrape together and rebuffed Sys-K's thrust on TPAR for long enough for scavok to bring the fleet and knock them back.

[Comstar]

GS just lost about 30 caps and a subcap fleet defending 1-S and NOL. The TCU in NOL is down and IT will take the station after downtime probably. AAA is logging in 319 after destroying the TCU in J-L, H74 and half a dozen other systems.


Goonadammering is here.

[Endie]

It's "Goonerdammerung".

[tgr]

Or CCP are butthurt about goons sticking it to their favorite BoB alliance back in the day and are just covering up the backstab by backstabbing other alliances as well.

On a more serious note, I'm surprised at just how incredibly buggy dominion has proven to be, and in the most hilarious places (TCU/station not invulnerable after all?), but there is a bit of a poetic justice to the timing. And of course, Molle, SYS-K, AAA etc are shirking work today and capitalizing on this bug's effects. Shit's going to get real for a few weeks I fear, and if we need an existential crisis to get people to log in, I suppose this should suffice.

As to the fuck directors, I would've assumed that using the wrong wallet would be something which should've shown itself a long time ago if it had been the case, and not suddenly bite whatever alliances it did bite at the same time. I find it hard to believe that so many alliances made the same mistake with wallets, at the same time. Well, apart from using autopay, I assume.

[Endie]

Yeah this is the second payment cycle since Dominion, so I'd be surprised if it was a wrong division thing, but I'm preparing the torch and pitchfork just in case.  Was there anything different about the first payment cycle?

Also, comstr are almost half the cap lossmails really not posted yet?  Where did the thirty losses thing come from?  I'm sceptical.

[tgr]

Actually, I have a bit of a hard time accepting that they are seriously not going to revert this. There's no way they can really say "welp, our bad, we'll fix it so it won't happen again, but we won't undo the damage since it is 'affecting everyone equally'". I'd assume this is going to hit goons the hardest, with Molle poopsocking/shirking work to capitalize on this.

Right now there's a downtime. If CCP had been properly professional and fair, it would've said "we're going to undo this during DT, and it will be DT for as long as it takes to clear this up. Do not bother to fight each other over this.", but I guess that would've been a bit too much to ask for.

Edit: going to add the same kind of reserve regarding wallets. I've heard the sov bills were paid every 14th day, and I've heard every month, so either way this should've been seen earlier if it was the incorrect wallet being used. Also, I've also heard that it should complain about the SOV bill not being paid every 6 hours for about 48 hours, just to make sure a minor problem such as this doesn't turn into the major problem it currently has due to a simple mistake.

[Endie]

CCP almost certainly don't know wtf has happened, yet.  Even if they have a good working theory they are wise not to announce until they are solid on the facts, as a retraction would be even worse.

And even if, when they do work out what's what, it turns out to be their bad it's probably 50-50 whether they actually have the will to reverse it (wheether by Fiat or by GM intervention, assuming that's possible).  If not then this is far worse than Delve II was for Bob, who had sov 1 back everywhere the next day (since towers were still up and claimed when Kenzoku was created).  Goons will lose sov in every affected system that doesn't get the TCUs onlined in time

If it is a cock-up by the directors then the hilarious thing is that all the pubby corps managed to do it correctly.  If it's the sov system then what's the betting that another tranche of systems go down tonight when they get billed?

[setar]

Agree though that the right thing to do would be shutting down until they've figured it out, and roll back if needed. But then, 0.0 is a tiny fraction of their customer base, maybe they do not want to alienate the remaining players while they have no idea how long it might take to figure out.

[Predator Irl]

They won't shut anything down until they have ruled out user error, but even then as you said 0.0 is only a small fraction of their player base. Hopefully this will be the welp needed to get goons in gear for the war.

[Endie]

They won't shut anything down until they have ruled out user error, but even then as you said 0.0 is only a small fraction of their player base. Hopefully this will be the welp needed to get goons in gear for the war.

Um we were pretty much in gear, dude: two weeks of solid victories across timezones.  Although the hilarious lack of coordination from our even-more-afk-than-usual directorate last night was a major letdown.

Anyway, if we move to NPC space I am totally getting myself a mothership.  Or helping buy Slay a titan, I dunno.  There's nothing else to spend money on in NPC space, it'll be cool.

[Comstar]

The last(?) fight for NOL was pretty dramatic.

The sub-cap fleet was in 1-S with the capfleet on the gate- ready to try and stop IT from getting into delve before downtime. We knew were outnumbered, that AAA had a fleet nearly as big as ours on the way too, and that if we failed to hold the gates of Delve it would all be over.

An hour before downtime all the caps were called away for an emergency deployment to J-L to stop AAA killing the TCU there. IT jumped in a few minutes later. After 20 minutes we lost the sub-cap fight and the FC ordered everyone to run for NOL as fast as we could to try again there. I got blown up as that happened and got a new ship from NOL a minute before IT's fleet came in behind us on the gate at full speed.

As I was now in a a 6 link ganglink command ship with no guns I went to a POS to give out bonuses. From what I heard on TS our sub-cap fleet was massacred on the gate when IT's cap fleet cynoed in and killed 30 caps afterwards, as the last Goonswarm defenders of NOL sacrificed their ships to buy as much time as possible for some more ships to evacuate out of the station.  The station was camped shortly thereafter, the TCU blown up, and the station captured shortly after downtime.

It would make a good movie or end of season TV episode.


Holding Delve will depend on the Goonswarm leadership leading on the field and posting on the forums. It's going to be harder than BoB had to defend, but we still hold about 40% of the systems and can get a lot more back as quick as IT has to take them. Supply lines and logistics are going to be pretty stuffed up for the time being. Molle made a victory-karma post on CAOD, so perhaps he might lose another Titan soon.

In any result, it's going to be an interesting story and have lots of Dhrama which will be good to read and be a small part of.