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tmp
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Reply #455 on: April 04, 2007, 07:32:01 PM

If BoB wins no one will fight them in organized conventional warfare again because of their strengths in PvP and logistics. This is as big as opposing force as you'll ever get with the south east + North all fighting BoB. If numbers and total sizes of alliance can't beat BoB, no one else ever will, beyond BoB imploding from within.

Theoretical numbers and total sizes mean very little if the forces in question are completely unorganized. Northern alliances have been left on their own to bleed themselves dry in outer BoB space for something like two months now, waiting for the promised second front that just keeps failing to materialize. At this rate by the time this second front actually happens (if ever) there will be no first front left.

When half of the "as big force as you'll ever get" doesn't even bother to show up, it's small wonder there's no results to speak of. It doesn't mean BoB cannot be beaten with these numbers or even with smaller ones perhaps. But it will take people who both know what they are doing and are willing to follow some sort of centralized command with the clue. Quite like BoB itself.
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Reply #456 on: April 04, 2007, 07:38:37 PM

The hell are you talking about? I know Goonfleet has been sending forces into Querious for the past two weeks (and not accomplishing dick), and KOS/TCF have been raiding Feythabolis the whole time, with, last I heard, two stations taken.

What did you think the second front was going to be - Delve?
tmp
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Reply #457 on: April 04, 2007, 08:12:27 PM

The hell are you talking about? I know Goonfleet has been sending forces into Querious for the past two weeks (and not accomplishing dick), and KOS/TCF have been raiding Feythabolis the whole time, with, last I heard, two stations taken.

What did you think the second front was going to be - Delve?

I don't know where it was going to be. Given results so far it just doesn't seem to actually be anywhere seeing how BoB seem to have all time in the world to play whack-a-mole with people trying to do something in their space.

Btw iif what I read elsewhere is correct Goonfleet is already pulling out of Querious. confirm/deny?
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Reply #458 on: April 04, 2007, 10:36:07 PM

The hell are you talking about? I know Goonfleet has been sending forces into Querious for the past two weeks (and not accomplishing dick), and KOS/TCF have been raiding Feythabolis the whole time, with, last I heard, two stations taken.

What did you think the second front was going to be - Delve?

I don't know where it was going to be. Given results so far it just doesn't seem to actually be anywhere seeing how BoB seem to have all time in the world to play whack-a-mole with people trying to do something in their space.

Btw iif what I read elsewhere is correct Goonfleet is already pulling out of Querious. confirm/deny?

I will neither confirm nor deny, as that would concern current fleet movements.
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Reply #459 on: April 05, 2007, 01:02:54 AM

The hell are you talking about? I know Goonfleet has been sending forces into Querious for the past two weeks (and not accomplishing dick)
Well, they have been training our new generation of FC's, so that's *something*.

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Reply #460 on: April 05, 2007, 03:07:38 AM

I was never in the V phase of F13's existence, but I think I gather that some of you would be delighted to hear that Light Darkness lost a faction-fitted carrier last night during a GF curb-stomping of YouWhat's battleship fleet.

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tmp
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Reply #461 on: April 05, 2007, 06:36:41 AM

I will neither confirm nor deny, as that would concern current fleet movements.

Ah, fair enough. People who aren't in Goonswarm afaik talked about it on IRC and in-game channels, so thought it's been made public to some extent, sorry.
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Reply #462 on: April 05, 2007, 09:26:42 AM

I was never in the V phase of F13's existence, but I think I gather that some of you would be delighted to hear that Light Darkness lost a faction-fitted carrier last night during a GF curb-stomping of YouWhat's battleship fleet.
This, maybe? Good ole LD is in CoW now. :( I was... surprised to see him in a shared intel channel.
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Reply #463 on: April 05, 2007, 09:36:54 AM

Quote
Also from report of Goonfleet carrier pilot: "I added to the effect of our sudden warp in by dropping a dozen frigates from my ship bay" :)

Hahaha. That's a pretty good tactic.
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Reply #464 on: April 10, 2007, 05:30:56 PM

Well, this hasn't been updated in a while so I figured I'd throw a few words in: Last weekend saw -YW- finish reclaiming Cloud Ring and they're now encroaching on FLA and D2 space in the far northwest, supported by MC.  I think BoB took back one of the stations taken by GoonSwarm a month ago in the far southeast, and the invasion of Querious has pretty much fizzled out, there was a series of battles in 9CG in which the north lost 6 dreads and all the Razor POS were removed (again).  IRON and PURE have pretty much disappeared from the south to deal with threats closer to home (the MC/-YW- offensive for IRON, and some ex-ASCN backlash for PURE), which leaves Razor and Morus Mihi plus odds and ends all that's left of the enemy in Q (which are annoying, but not a territorial threat).  The southern coalition is conspicuously absent, unknown if they are staging for a renewed offensive in the far south or if they're going to redeploy along with the Goon expeditionary force in the north.

Generally, the tide seems to have shifted from the southwest to the northwest, with the coalition on the defensive.

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Reply #465 on: April 10, 2007, 08:40:17 PM

Well, from what I hear...

Gunboat Diplomacy, a BoB vassal, has quit and retreated to empire from somewhere. Not sure where. I think Fountain? YW/MC are pushing into Fade, which looks pretty bad for D2/IRON's continued commitment. In the south, Feythabolis is more or less a gigantic battleground with BoB renters getting endlessly griefed by coalition gangs while the Reds have taken control of most of the complexes as far out as Delve. A few stations have been taken in Feyth, but not a huge amount of progress. BoB sends a big fleet once-daily into the southeastern area, wins a smashing victory somewhere, then returns home while the griefing and general disorder continues unabated around them.

It's looking like D2 will pull back to try to defend against MC while the southern forces push into Feythabolis and begin displacing the renters there.

Edit: Thing is, nothing huge or exciting has happened on either side since the last major engagement. A progression of trends and a shifting of tactics on either side, mostly. Two opponents circling each other.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 08:42:03 PM by Yoru »
MahrinSkel
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Reply #466 on: April 10, 2007, 09:02:24 PM

Well, from what I hear...

Gunboat Diplomacy, a BoB vassal, has quit and retreated to empire from somewhere. Not sure where. I think Fountain?
Would have been Querious, but they're still there (FIX is currently helping them firm up control of H74 after a AAA incursion).  Warped Mining left their alliance, and it was never the largest or most militant (little capital strength).

Yeah, in general nothing conclusive is happening right now, the north is a shambles and the southeast is the Eastern Front, too much territory and not enough entrenched defenses left after the ASCN war for any conclusive actions.  All three alliances are fighting in non-critical turf with considerably less than their full strength, after the wet firecracker in F-T (well, mostly, D2 seems to be suffering battle fatigue and isn't really making much of a showing even in the north from what I've heard, except for one incident where they Doomsday Deviced their own fleet).  All the forces involved in that except BoB seem to be stepping back and figuring out what should come next.  Not that surprising, it was a *massive* effort for all parties.  Can't do that every week.

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Reply #467 on: April 11, 2007, 01:36:34 AM

It's looking like D2 will pull back to try to defend against MC while the southern forces push into Feythabolis and begin displacing the renters there.
Pretty obvious tactics, really - fight head to head against BoB's horrifically broken multiple Titan + fighterswarm fleets*, or cut off their remaining revenue stream and bleed them to death?

Complexes - either shut down due to a 'bug', or being contested.
T2 market (previously a good moneyspinner due to all of BoB's BPOs) - in freefall.

What's left to do? Harass the serf alliances until they go back to mining veld in Empire, taking their multiple billions in ISK of rent with them.

*No, not bitterness. Titans are stupidly overpowered right now, and as force multipliers they get even more broken the more you get. A nerf is pending** if CCP has any sense whatsoever, and I suspect that fighters will be next on that list.

**Probably after the first BoB fleet gets double-doomsday'd. This is bitterness - see the difference?. :D

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Reply #468 on: April 11, 2007, 03:23:48 AM

Nice spin Sim :-D

RA got your whole offensive where sun doesn't shine and are whoring every plex they can find, so let's call that war effort and pretend everything good.
You know, it might have made some sense, except that you don't burn spent iskies/hour of playing. To hurt BoB financially, you would have to do some damage.
Unfortutnately, with north being bloody mess, RA uninterested and your general lack of capital fleet, you are unable to inflict noticeable loses on BoB side.

Oh and stop whining about Titans. They are anti-blob device, so I suggest you stop exploiting game mechanics with cheap ass lag 'tactics' (newbie frigs spammage ftl) and get yourself a smart FC and fleet that can follow his orders.
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Reply #469 on: April 11, 2007, 03:55:57 AM

Joe, look at Mahrin's posts and then your own.  I disagree with his interpretation in some substantial areas, but he's calm, informative and I'm always keen to see his view on things, for the same reason that I sometimes read the Independent or the Guardian instead of the Telegraph.

Your posts, however, are just a mass of name-calling unsupported assertions.  Not to mention being bloody hard to make head or tale of.

And, re your one, semi-substantive point, CCP have clearly dropped the ball on Titans.  Yes, with officer fittings, rigs and the like they come out at horrendous cost (Evil Thug reckons about 120billion+).  But then you have a superb logistics platform that can sit inside PoS shields, pop one metre outside, remotely doomsday, head back in, and face no threat because even if you do happen to have a bunch of dreads sitting around with heavy nos's on them and ready to bump, the cap recharge rate is about a minute, they'e immune to ewar, etc....

An invincible (once built, I admit) ship with an I-win button is too much.  I actually agree that Goonfleet's ability to bring large numbers of new players to the table made combatting them too hard due to lag issues.  The mere fact that they have brought lots of new players to the game is not something to be punished, of course, but the lag issue had to be dealt with in the short term.  Otherwise, as Mahrin has mentioned Fix doing, there are ways to combat such tactics by adapting and copying the best features.

Whether it was designed with this in mind is arguable, but the DD is one way of dealing with the lag issue, and I think that when GF work out how to use many fleets in many places the bob renters in particular will be in a bad place.

But the platform should be vulnerable.  It should be a risky manuevre that lets you win a fleet battle in seconds by committing two or three titans to create untankable hellblasts.  Evil Thug shouldn't be happily swanning around battlefields in his titan looting wrecks, ffs.

You'll notice my examples are not Bob ones.  All titans are unbalanced.

Edit: spelink
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 05:22:07 AM by Endie »

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Reply #470 on: April 11, 2007, 04:07:56 AM

They're not anti-blob devices, they're anti-everything devices.

I'm sorry, but an EWar immune, jump capable, incredibly tough, etc, etc. capital ship that can regen its own cap from zero to full in under twenty seconds* is broken to begin with. Adding the doomsday device, jump arrays, etc. on top of that moves it from 'broken' to 'horrifically broken and needs to be fixed ASAP'. Especially as they can cloak as well.

Currently the only potential way to kill a titan in fleet combat is a couple of hundred nos-battleships gimped with a DDD tank and a bunch of dreads - and then the side with the titan will just use their other titan to gate in an interceptor-with-fighter-escort blob to tear the nos-ships apart.

Kill the interceptors? With what - the support fleet which got wiped out by the DDD in the first place?

Titans will get nerfed. Fighters are probably going to get nerfed. Alliances with Titans should be trying to steer the changes via discussion instead of saying "LOL learn 2 play" and then acting surprised after CCP cripples them.

*Not exaggerating - a fully officer-fitted & rigged Avatar piloted by a top-end pilot with the right implants can go from empty to full cap in 15 seconds. That's quicker than the cycle time of a heavy energy destabiliser, for those folllowing along at home.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 04:15:18 AM by Simond »

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Reply #471 on: April 11, 2007, 05:08:23 AM

I haven't logged my main in for a while (been having a blast on my alt with an empire war against some carebears smiley ) but I understand that MC is currently attacknig FLA space [Deklein] I've also heard rumours of the odd Bobbit with them as well but no mention of YW

While FLA were massively invovled in the cloud ring offensive (dont ask me what happened, I missed the whole thing) and while it makes tactical sence for MC to want to base out of FLA space (slap bang between IRON and D2) they did just manage to bring another group to the party who wasnt previously attending (or at least FLA leadership has never, to my knowledge, organised any offensive against BOB-space)
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Reply #472 on: April 11, 2007, 05:28:47 AM

They're not anti-blob devices, they're anti-everything devices.

I'm sorry, but an EWar immune, jump capable, incredibly tough, etc, etc. capital ship that can regen its own cap from zero to full in under twenty seconds* is broken to begin with. Adding the doomsday device, jump arrays, etc. on top of that moves it from 'broken' to 'horrifically broken and needs to be fixed ASAP'. Especially as they can cloak as well.

Holy fuck.  I gotta get me one of those.

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IRL.

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MahrinSkel
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Reply #473 on: April 11, 2007, 07:01:49 AM

While FLA were massively invovled in the cloud ring offensive (dont ask me what happened, I missed the whole thing) and while it makes tactical sence for MC to want to base out of FLA space (slap bang between IRON and D2) they did just manage to bring another group to the party who wasnt previously attending (or at least FLA leadership has never, to my knowledge, organised any offensive against BOB-space)
Before the -YW- conversion, FLA was heavily represented in the normal fleet component of the forces sieging ED- and 9CG.  I'd say they were 70-80 ships of the 450 ship enemy fleets we were seeing back then.  Not sure if they had any capitals on scene.

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Reply #474 on: April 11, 2007, 07:32:38 AM

I haven't logged my main in for a while (been having a blast on my alt with an empire war against some carebears smiley )

If it's the empire war I'm thinking of, then the 'carebears' inflicted a lot more damage, in terms of ISK, than they received.  cool

Over and out.
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Reply #475 on: April 11, 2007, 08:30:16 AM

Heh.

Quote
there are several MAJOR things that need to be fixed.

1.) REMOTE DD. Nobody, that I am aware of, has said this is necessary. Everybody, from BOB, to d2, seems to agree that it is overpowered and stupidly un-necessary. The ability to shoot from anywheres in the system? I mean Come-the-hell-on. It just makes zero, sense what-so-ever.

Solution: Remove it.

2.) Titan Capacitor. It is rediculus. I watched Tom McCash, cyno in, DD, and cyno-out and apparently, orange species did it to IRON a few days ago. titan's can jump in, BBQ and leave. NO RISK. none. whatsoever. it would take over a hundred nuets, instantly hitting to prevent a titan from being able to jump away after a cyno in. Why pack armor mods when you can cyno away? why pack ANYTHING, but cap mods? It stupid and it needs to be fixed.

Solution: titans capacitor recharge 16x multiplied current. meaning with best mods, and full cap fit it takes 4 minutes to recharge. IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?

3.) Dictor Fix. Dictors are supercapitals... why are they relevant? because dictors are the ONLY way to hold supercapitals currently. And their bubbles are so fucking bugged that they can't fucking do it. dictor bubbles must work on the same grid together. and they MUST prevent cyno outs. dictors are the key to making supercapitals NORMAL.

solution: dictor bubbles work irrelevant of other bubbles (deployed and dictor) on grid. dictor bubbles prevent cyno outs.

do those three things and all of a sudden you have a balanced set of supercapitals.
From the current SHC 'Nerf Titans' thread, posted by....a MC pilot. Even the people getting the most benefit from them at the moment thinks that they are stupidly overpowered and need to be nerfed.

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Reply #476 on: April 11, 2007, 10:31:51 AM

stuff

This isn't Eve-O. Let's keep it that way.

Anyhow. In my mind, the problem isn't really what happens when you have one Titan in play - a single DD has a fairly long cycle time, but most battleships/well-tanked BCs can take a single DD. Yes, it wipes out support. Hopefully you have more in-system and can get to it despite the crippling lag that fleet battles seem to cause. Double DDs are ridiculous. They can pretty much wipe out any BS fleet that isn't specifically tanked to handle double DDs, and that makes them extraordinarily vulnerable to anything else.

I don't even want to fathom triple DDs, which are more or less inevitable as time progresses.

Oh yeah, and let's not forget that, even without the DD, the jump-bridge they provide to bypass gatecamps is exceedingly valuable for getting a large support fleet into a warzone without it getting popped due to lag.
tmp
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Reply #477 on: April 11, 2007, 02:38:51 PM

Even the people getting the most benefit from them at the moment thinks that they are stupidly overpowered and need to be nerfed.

MC doesn't have a titan themselves, and they are currently on receiving end of D2 titan. So no, they aren't exactly these who get the most benefit.

On the other hand people who do own one and do get benefit (like Evil Thug in that very thread) are quite outspoken against the nerfs. Which isn't surprising really, just a bit different picture than what you are painting.  smiley

You also don't really see D2 people ask for titan nerf, while at it. With very few exceptions the division between opinions is clear -- these who have titans want them to stay the way they are, these who don't have them demand a nerf.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 02:43:13 PM by tmp »
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Reply #478 on: April 11, 2007, 03:18:05 PM

With very few exceptions the division between opinions is clear -- these who have titans want them to stay the way they are, these who don't have them demand a nerf.

From my understanding of the situation Titan's (with a pilot at the helm) are virtually impossible to kill.  As time goes on the Titan numbers are going to increase and that will lead to a major nerf, it just will. 

I feel sorry for those that have invested so much energy in obtaining a Titan but with solar systems that currently can't support fleet battles above 450 ships, a single ship that can kill a fleet of 200 with virtually no risk to itself isn't going to be a popular item or even a positive factor for the game in the long term.

The war's going to drag on for a while which suits me fine.
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Reply #479 on: April 11, 2007, 03:42:20 PM

From my understanding of the situation Titan's (with a pilot at the helm) are virtually impossible to kill.  As time goes on the Titan numbers are going to increase and that will lead to a major nerf, it just will. 

Probably yes, though Evil Thug in that SHC thread makes interesting point -- current POS warfare is almost strictly capital ship game. Bringing battleships or something smaller is literally bringing knife to the gun fight with titans around, and that can be considered bad... but alternatively if CCP manages to succeed with their plan to give smaller gangs some meaningful goals in territory warfare, then it could as well lead to something different -- current POS warfare limited to capital ships just like it is at the moment, but at the same time smaller ships still get to play meaningful role, just operating on their own rather than cram few hundred of support + capitals into single system in order to have fight. That would indirectly diminish role of titans and their DD, because there wouldn't be large blobs of regular ships for them to nuke, and the capitals can shrug off the DD pretty well.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 03:45:13 PM by tmp »
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Reply #480 on: April 12, 2007, 02:55:17 AM

POS warfare is the root cause of blobbing anyway - you have fleets of moderately expensive capital ships (dreads) which are very vulnerable when in siege mode.

Well-fitted medium+ POSes all-but-require dreads to bring down.

System sovereignty is determined by POS numbers.

So defenders place as many 'death star' POSes as they can, which require dreads to kill. If the attack brings X dreads, it will take Y minutes of those dreads being sitting ducks in siege mode to bring down a POS. Bring 2X dreads, and it takes Y/2. Bring 4X dreads, and it takes Y/4, etc. And, of course, you need an escort fleet to defend your dreads from the defender's counter-attack...and if the defender has a titan or titans, you'll need reserves either in system or in a nearby system.

If CCP were serious about being anti-blob, they'd drop POS shield/armour/etc strength by at least half.

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Reply #481 on: April 12, 2007, 04:17:07 AM

I haven't logged my main in for a while (been having a blast on my alt with an empire war against some carebears smiley )

If it's the empire war I'm thinking of, then the 'carebears' inflicted a lot more damage, in terms of ISK, than they received.  cool

It probably isn't, we aren't a known merc corp (no we're not in Privateers) and the target was no one worth speaking of (in the 'grand scheme of things' sence anyway)

Over 33% of their members quit the corp towards the end of the war in addition to having had more ISK destroyed by us than we received so I'd say we did more damage. Plus we were getting paid to beat up on them smiley
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Reply #482 on: April 12, 2007, 08:49:49 AM

Definitely not the same one then.  I was thinking of Privateers deccing Ivy League.

Over and out.
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Reply #483 on: April 12, 2007, 10:24:13 AM

Do Privateers have a kill board? Now that would make for some interesting reading.
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Reply #484 on: April 12, 2007, 10:39:42 AM

Privateer Killboard

I don't know how accurate most killboards are.  I know E-Uni tends to be as accurate as possible (if something isn't posted, it's most likely because the pilot was very new and didn't know how).  The Privateer KB seems to be hit or miss.  Some corps and individuals are very good about posting all KMs but a couple of corps seem to never post their loss mails.  I'm sure that's not an uncommon problem with a lot of alliances.

Over and out.
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Reply #485 on: April 12, 2007, 03:15:18 PM

Do Privateers have a kill board? Now that would make for some interesting reading.

Privateers don't exist as single "real" entity so such board is rather meaningless. It's just a number of separate corporations which join and leave common "privateers" banner as they please, so they can get access to large amounts of empire space targets through declared alliance-level wars.

Because of this they don't also have some common kill posting policy, and it's up to each corporation and their members to post kills, losses or nothing at all. So you can expect such board be also very inaccurate...
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Reply #486 on: April 15, 2007, 11:54:38 PM

So anything happen this weekend, or has it been status quo?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #487 on: April 16, 2007, 12:14:26 AM

We (IAC) put a BoB transit medium POS into reinforced. I was with the force of 70 or so who went back to kill it...

...And we got there just as a BoB cap fleet that was nearly equal in size as our entire fleet arrived from pounding KOS POS's in C3. Our FC was quite good and AFIAK we only took 1 loss before escaping with our tails between our legs. Read some nice Haiku's in the chat channel.

There's not much you can DO vs 4 motherships, 40+ cap ships and a Titan 2 jumps away. They don't need a support fleet.


Miners with Attitude were kicked out of the BoB Pets because they couldn't pay the 6 billion a month BoB bill. IRON I think took the station but probably won't hold it. This is in southern Queroius, south of FIX so the logistics are probably too hard to hold it (it's next to IAC space, but 30(?)+ jumps from empire through us). The tactic of stationing cloaked raiders in MWAs Home systems apperntly was what did it, and there was little actual fighting.

I wounder who BoB wil let move in in MWA's place?

Outbreak has moved into Curse and is....taking up a lot of IAC's time (and ships).  However, it's not POS warfare, but I wonder how much BoB paid them (I know the standard denial is Outbreak only works for themselves, but nothing occurs in isolation).


The current situation appers to be stalemate, but BoB have the initative and the Coalition has lost it after LV's collapse. The BoB pets can't stop the Coalition, but the Coalition can't stop BoB if it decides to show up. If BoB can force D2+friends out of the war, they win because the'll be able to concentrate on one front, where as right now they have to go from one front to another too often to get a decisive victory. For example, BoB *could* have taken FAT for FiX, spies offlineing towers or not.  But after the inital attack BoB has had other fish to fry. Yesterday I didn't even see a FIX in the FAT POS's for severel hours.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 12:31:15 AM by Comstar »

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Reply #488 on: April 16, 2007, 12:33:15 AM

That smells :(


Have we really reached Capitals Only Online?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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the y master, king of bourbon


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Reply #489 on: April 16, 2007, 12:36:12 AM

That smells :(


Have we really reached Capitals Only Online?

Only when you're fighting BoB proper. But it's moving that way, yeah.
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