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Author Topic: War  (Read 1923415 times)
Slayerik
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Victim: Sirius Maximus


Reply #385 on: March 27, 2007, 11:03:43 AM

That is friggin great.

Just know this.... God can't save any of you when my gank crew rolls through ;)


"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Yoru
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Reply #386 on: March 27, 2007, 11:05:37 AM

This was apparently culled from the EveO boards. He's a total carebear nutball.

Quote from: Stuff
Originally Posted by Creed Richards (Dark Centuri Inc.) <Firmus Ixion>
This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was.

Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended?

Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe?

Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is low security and 0.0 space. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of greifing in that area as well, but that is another question.

But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot?

You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything?

Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?!

Why have you not done anything?

But now, you've given suicide gankers the ultimate prize, loot from freighters.

You give them the ability to destroy billions in investment, whether they are AFK or not, irrespective of the safety high security space should provide.

Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not?

You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security.

Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec.

Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below.

My 2 cents, God Bless

Creed Richards

Those that wish to sign this petition, please do.

Oh yeah, and that sound you just heard? That's the morale of every ganker in the coalition, as well as every single Goon, reaching orbit.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 11:07:16 AM by Yoru »
Krakrok
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Reply #387 on: March 27, 2007, 11:14:04 AM

FIGHT LIKE JESUS WOULD FIGHT.

This guy missed his calling. He should have been in Darkon the movie.
Raging Turtle
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Reply #388 on: March 27, 2007, 12:51:19 PM

Are non-wardecced freighters now being ganked regularly in empire?  What brought this on, exactly?
Nija
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Reply #389 on: March 27, 2007, 12:56:07 PM

Uhh the change that made freighters drop loot when asploded?
ajax34i
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Reply #390 on: March 27, 2007, 01:04:38 PM

Well, seeing how it takes 20 battleships to suicide-gank a freighter, I figure even 3-4 battleships as escort would throw in enough of a delay for Concord to finish off the suiciders before the freighter explodes, no?
Yoru
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Reply #391 on: March 27, 2007, 01:25:47 PM

Well, seeing how it takes 20 battleships to suicide-gank a freighter, I figure even 3-4 battleships as escort would throw in enough of a delay for Concord to finish off the suiciders before the freighter explodes, no?

Not if you have a hauler buddy in a newbie-corp or neutral corp scooping the loot in a WCS-equipped industrial. He should be able to scoop n' scoot before being blown up, despite the kill rights.
ajax34i
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Reply #392 on: March 27, 2007, 02:54:51 PM

Indy size: 17k to 30k cargo hold.  Freighter size:  900k cargo hold.  It would require 25+ industrials to get everything.  I guess you could have a few haulers around to pick up the best stuff, but most of the time the freighter would be full of T2 modules, T2 ships, and/or minerals, and all of that stuff is valuable.  Maybe the 20-25 battleship pilots that are required to suicide to bring a freighter down can immediately jump into haulers and go collect the booty, but likely it'll just be a free-for-all for everyone in local to come get the free loots and ISK's.

And what I meant was, the escorts could either shield-boost the freighter, repair the freighter, or provide decoy targets for some of the drones attacking the freighter, thus lowering DPS on the freighter long enough for Concord to finish off the attackers.  The 20 attacking battleships only have a limited time to pull the attack off, because Concord spawns right away and jams/blows them up; even a small reduction in their DPS will mean failure. 

I spose they could bring 200 battleships and 30 haulers and take the freighter out with an alpha strike, and then loot it, shrug.  Empire fleet "warfare."
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #393 on: March 27, 2007, 03:09:55 PM

Don't be too proud of the technological terrors you setup in FAT.

Granted apperntly BoB payed for the POS's that just got destroyed, so it didn't cost FIX anything bar a couple of tech 1 indys. I am somewhat surprised BoB didn't come to do anything about it, but I'm guessing the'll be back after downtime to put another 10 deathstars down.

Goons came to help at one point and killed some of the POSs, but the majority were IAC (and I don't think AAA particapted either).


It's going to be a long war.
That is definitely true, it will be a very long war.  But BoB didn't pay for the towers, I know that for an absolute certainty, the claim they did was apparently another bit of social engineering to go with the rest of the betrayal (they were defueled by the alt of an apparent goon, and The Mittani takes public credit for arranging it), just like the claim that they had been allowed to run out of fuel through incompetence that starts that thread.  It's definitely driven home the lesson I've been harping about for weeks (the crappy quality of our security when it comes to who has POS roles).  Ideally, we'd have the capability of giving POS permissions on a case-by-case basis, or at least restricting them when the POS was strategic rather than economic.  Having people who just were setting up industrial or field-base POS able to turn the tide of a battle like this is a major flaw in Eve.

5-6 billion worth of POS is not exactly chump change, but the loss of momentum is of greater concern.  However, IAC should really think about who they've jumped in bed with (did you ever wonder who it was that paid for Prohibition 1?).  Having allies for whom betrayal and grief is not just a means, but a desirable goal in and of itself....  Up until this, FIX respected IAC, we saw them as okay guys that the tides of politics had happened to put on the other side of the battlefield.  The "you're just jealous you didn't do it to us first" attitude displayed by the IAC posters in that thread will come back to haunt them someday.

As for the slightly over-the-top rhetoric about the betrayal on our internal forums, no, we're not some bunch of RP-ers.  However, we do believe that even though the game is only a game, the relationships inside of it are real, and in-game betrayal is as much a testament of character as any other.  If you're playing a game of Monopoly, and you find out the "banker" is cheating, do you make a judgement about him/her as a person that goes beyond the game?

This guy came to us whining about what assholes AAA were, worked his way into a position of trust, then used that trust to give the goonies/IAC by betrayal what they would have had great difficulty taking by other means.  The meaninglessness of what he gave away only underscores the weakness of character that caused him to do it.

--Dave

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #394 on: March 27, 2007, 03:28:13 PM

The meaninglessness of what he gave away only underscores the weakness of character that caused him to do it.

I'd do it to your corp in one second flat, WAR is WAR, it's a pretend starship game and you can pretend to be a spy in it.  The whole in-game actions reflect RL personality argument is a crock of shit and always has been.  Praying to God to help you because your corp is about to get their arse kicked is just as valid a playstyle as going undercover with an alt, I'd personally chose the 2nd playstyle just because I'm fairly sure God has better things to do.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #395 on: March 27, 2007, 03:41:23 PM

Stepping back and putting on my "designer" hat for a moment, you have to admit this: Everyone in this fight *cares* about it in a way that no operator-created content could ever hope to inspire.  Even the goons are being seduced by it, if in a very "dark side" sort of way.

--Dave

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Yoru
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Reply #396 on: March 27, 2007, 03:51:39 PM

The meaninglessness of what he gave away only underscores the weakness of character that caused him to do it.

I'd do it to your corp in one second flat, WAR is WAR, it's a pretend starship game and you can pretend to be a spy in it.  The whole in-game actions reflect RL personality argument is a crock of shit and always has been.  Praying to God to help you because your corp is about to get their arse kicked is just as valid a playstyle as going undercover with an alt, I'd personally chose the 2nd playstyle just because I'm fairly sure God has better things to do.

Agreed. I've always enjoyed a good spy or conspiracy story. If I can act one out on the grand, meaningless expanse of the internets, awesome. It's like being the center of a little novel that I write with my own wits. And it's something you can't get in most other MMO contexts, too. :-D

Stepping back and putting on my "designer" hat for a moment, you have to admit this: Everyone in this fight *cares* about it in a way that no operator-created content could ever hope to inspire.  Even the goons are being seduced by it, if in a very "dark side" sort of way.

--Dave

This is what the Biz people call "stickiness". Or "barrier to exit".

Or, with CCP's present case, "Would you like to stay for lunch? ..."
Slayerik
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Victim: Sirius Maximus


Reply #397 on: March 27, 2007, 04:43:32 PM

Stepping back and putting on my "designer" hat for a moment, you have to admit this: Everyone in this fight *cares* about it in a way that no operator-created content could ever hope to inspire.  Even the goons are being seduced by it, if in a very "dark side" sort of way.

--Dave

Its the only way to go. You can only whack a foozle so many times before it becomes old. If you give me a reason to whack a foozle, like helping support my PVP, then I'll do it forever. "Meaningful PVP"... Only experienced it in a few games and Eve is one of them.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Endie
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Reply #398 on: March 29, 2007, 02:23:54 PM

It seems that the coalition just destroyed the BoB capital shipyards, complete with pre-natal titan inside.  Quite a few attacking titans down, as was inevitable.

Gotta be a blow for Band of "You're all dead, you just don't know it yet" Brothers to have it driven home that, if their enemies can stick to it, there's nothing that they can't take.

I honestly thought that there was no way that this would happen: the sheer volume of defenders and their titans, motherships etc seemed too huge.  The lag seems to have been horrible for just about everyone, too.

Edit: The attention of the massive cap fleet the coalition brought has turned onto the Bob supercaps.  Presumably there are going to be tens of thousands of dollars of damage done tonight to all concerned unless someone scarpers, soon.

Further Edit: Goodness knows what's happening.  Seleene (shudder with repulsion) is trying to claim that all the coalition dreads involved and left will die.  Sounds like "Go! Please! Or we'll start trying!".  It'll be a while before anyone knows, I imagine.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 02:47:26 PM by Endie »

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JoeTF
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Reply #399 on: March 29, 2007, 02:53:36 PM

Apparently you had some nasty friendly fire incident:D
No Titan under fire, nor a single MS dead on BoB side at the time of writing.


This obviously might change later.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 03:02:48 PM by JoeTF »
Endie
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Reply #400 on: March 29, 2007, 02:55:43 PM

Joe, you really need to calm down with the "propaganda!  propaganda!" stuff.  I edited that bit out fully ten minutes before you replied.  And when it was there I said "this is people getting over-excited.. titans don't die"

Edit:  With the servers stuffed, I gather the order to log off for now has been given.  I wonder what will happen when the north-american primteime comes round in a couple of hours?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 03:01:22 PM by Endie »

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JoeTF
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Reply #401 on: March 29, 2007, 03:05:16 PM

I wonder if the dreads attacking the POS managed to log or were destroyed. Initial count suggest around 40 "missing" dreads:)
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #402 on: March 29, 2007, 03:16:04 PM

Lag is awful and reports are fragmented, but on one side you've got a dead POS which probably contained a Titan under construction (60-75B, not even default insurance because it's not completed), on the other you have a huge number of coalition capitals killed.  Reports that 3 coalition titans were killed (only default insurance of 40% since they can't be docked, so roughly 40-50B each) and an unknown but apparently large number of dreadnoughts (roughly 600M-1B each after insurance, depending on fittings).  Reports that one of the BoB titans might have been killed as well (which have been denied inside the BoB camp, and they have never tried to spin that way internally).  And probably a few hundred lesser ships on each side, call it 20-40B.

If losses on the attacking side are as bad as indicated, this would not be the kind of victory the coalition can afford, the objective was accomplished but the cost was incredible (we're talking hundreds of billions, equivalent to tens of thousands of real dollars).  And we've established once and for all that the servers, high-end and beefed up as they are, cannot support fleet fights of this scale.  The really interesting question is what CCP does about reimbursement, normally in such laggy fights they reimburse ship losses, *but* they have a policy of not reimbursing super-capitals under any conditions.  If they don't reimburse anything, on the grounds that everyone knew this was going to be a lagfest and jumped in anyway, the coalition war machine is pretty much wrecked for the next month or so even if they have the funds on hand to replace all those ships (takes a lot of time to build that many capital ships).  If they reimburse everything but the titans, the battle goes to BoB but not by such a crushing margin.  If they reimburse everything but the titan that was still building, it's a defeat for BoB.  It's complicated by the fact that many of those capitals did not die to lag per se, but because they were deliberately jumped in without support to assault the POS (and indeed were able to kill it, which argues against the lag theory of reimbursement).

And overall, the fact that who wins or loses in this battle will be decided by how CCP handles the reimbursement is a major problem for CCP and the Eve community.

--Dave

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Yoru
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Reply #403 on: March 29, 2007, 03:24:45 PM

Titans died? What?

I thought everyone believed, up until now, that the bastards were nigh-all invincible? Or are we talking about the titan pilots experiencing client crashes, and thus highly vulnerable uncontrolled titans?
JoeTF
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Reply #404 on: March 29, 2007, 03:30:14 PM

I cannot confirm any titan loss or kill tbh. Though with this lag it might have been possible.
Endie
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Reply #405 on: March 29, 2007, 03:31:26 PM

I'd be amazed if titans died.  I'd also be amazed if there was any reimbursements.  Everyone came to that fight knowing what would happen.

And even the upper end of Mahrin's estimates, which seem way more than other reports, would still surely be worthwhile to stop another well-nigh indestructible ship appearing, not to mention proving that any system, anywhere, can be attacked.

Edit:  Joe's right, I suppose if a titan were to die, these would be the conditions for it.

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Simond
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Reply #406 on: March 29, 2007, 03:32:28 PM

Alternate version:
Somewhere over two dozen coalition dreads down (plus a handful of carriers) - mostly T1 fitted. No Titans. RA took the brunt of the losses, but has replacement dreads cooking already.

BoB: Down one titan-under-construction (i.e. no insurance) plus one capship yard. And one aura of omnipotence.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 03:36:20 PM by Simond »

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #407 on: March 29, 2007, 03:41:12 PM

Alternate version:
Somewhere over two dozen coalition dreads down (plus a handful of carriers) - mostly T1 fitted. No Titans. RA took the brunt of the losses, but has replacement dreads cooking already.

BoB: Down one titan-under-construction (i.e. no insurance) plus one capship yard. And one aura of omnipotence.

Yeah I'd go with that version from what I was reading, crazy lag, I was one gate away when I got popped.
Endie
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Reply #408 on: March 29, 2007, 03:46:35 PM

Idon't get what you're saying about the coalition train being derailed by these losses, Mahrin.  I mean, I think that the capital losses (although more t1 fitted) will be higher than you're suggesting, but these are spread across the biggest alliances in the game.  And RA are infamously rich, thanks to the complexes.

Edit: I meant to say, the screenies from the various staging sites showed hundreds of caps.  Like, hundreds.  And people were complaining that only a small percentage got through the lag to reach the target.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 03:48:24 PM by Endie »

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Nija
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Reply #409 on: March 29, 2007, 03:53:47 PM

My best friend from highschool pilots one of the goonfleet dreads. I'm at work, on IRC, here's what he tells me -

               
(him) ffff
(me) ?
(him) crazy stuff about to go down in eve
(him) there has to be like 200+ caps on our side
(me) yeah? secret shit?
(me) how did that happen
(me) big change from last week when you guys were in the pos shields and iraf was tanking 25 dreads
(him) shitload of alliances, plan in to pop a bob titan being made
(him) ha yeah
(me) oh that'll be nice. is it still opsec?
(him) i'm sure
(me) system coming out of reinforced soon?
(me) er, station
(him) still setting up think it's like 20-30 mins till out of reinforced               
(me) oh that'll be rad
(him) hopefully the game doesnt just instashit itself
(him) well, looks like we aborted another titan
(him) the screen never loaded for me but oh well
(me) hahah
(me) you being there means that one of their guys had a black screen too
(him) yeah, i'd say maybe 1/4 of our fleet was able to actually load
(me) they need to fix that shit. how many people did they have in system
(me) guess you got out alive?
(him) not really
(him) I tried to jump out, and it took all my cap away but i'm still in the hostile system and all the enemy dreads just loaded on my screen
(me) haha fuck
(him) show 400 in local now but who knows how many there actually were
(him) something like 300 ready to jump in
Simond
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Reply #410 on: March 29, 2007, 04:02:57 PM

The cherry on top: The titan-under-construction was about three days away from launch.
Ouch.

Edit: Seleene claims coalition losses closer to 50, for the little that's worth.
Edit2: vv If that's true, it couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke. :D
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 04:06:35 PM by Simond »

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Krakrok
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Reply #411 on: March 29, 2007, 04:05:10 PM

Here's the numbers from the map in the three main battle systems.

F-TE1T 198 ships exploded in last 24 hours (124 last hour). Pilots last 30 minutes 405.
K-6K16 164 ships exploded in last 24 hours (102 last hour). Pilots last 30 minutes 152.
D-3GIQ 58  ships exploded in last 24 hours (37 last hour).Pilots last 30 minutes 65.


Apparently, DigitalCommunist (BoB guy) lost a Nyx.

D2 View: http://freenet-homepage.de/winchip2/2007.03.29.21.25.25.jpg
BoB View: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0703/f-t_battle.jpg
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 06:00:57 PM by Krakrok »
Miasma
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Reply #412 on: March 29, 2007, 07:07:05 PM

WindupAtheist
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Reply #413 on: March 29, 2007, 07:21:44 PM

spin

I've never played Eve, but I have to imagine that walking into BoB's lair and successfully kicking them in the nuts is a victory for the other side, almost entirely regardless of what it cost.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
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JoeTF
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Reply #414 on: March 29, 2007, 07:26:36 PM

Yeah, but now the catch is whether  there were nuts to be kicked. Newest spin is that POS in question was producting nothing of value in which case it wouldn't be kick in the nuts ut rather running into minefield and beingblown up in the middle.
ajax34i
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Reply #415 on: March 29, 2007, 09:22:12 PM

Are all those dots ships or are some of those just drones and other stuff?

Rectangles are ships, X'es are drones.
Krakrok
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Reply #416 on: March 29, 2007, 09:51:56 PM

MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #417 on: March 29, 2007, 10:12:23 PM

Well, final tally seems to be 57 enemy capital ships (50 dreads 7 carriers) with no capital losses on our side, conventional ship proportions are nearly as bad (all the systems on the regular routes were heavily camped by affiliate alliances, which is why the capitals had to jump in without support).  As for what was in the array: Nobody who knows seems to be saying (but indications are that the RKK leadership seemed pretty pissed when the POS went down).  Not long ago it would be impossible to conceal if it were empty or not, as it took hundreds of trips to load the components, but for the last few months it's been possible to unload freighters in space (from GFC's, but you can't load in space until the next major patch) so once horrendous logistics ops are now pretty easy.

No word on enemy supercapitals, so those reports may have been just over-enthusiastic rumor.  Anyway, it's by far the biggest and most costly battle Eve has ever seen.

--Dave

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Fordel
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Reply #418 on: March 29, 2007, 10:31:37 PM

I can't imagine a supercapital blowing up without the mail getting priority and/or being spammed everywhere with much gloating.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Krakrok
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Reply #419 on: March 29, 2007, 11:12:35 PM

(all the systems on the regular routes were heavily camped by affiliate alliances, which is why the capitals had to jump in without support)

This is false. The system was capped at 400 ships. No more ships could enter the system. The coalition claims to have had 1000 ships.
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