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Author Topic: War  (Read 1923855 times)
slog
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8232


Reply #6685 on: January 26, 2010, 06:33:42 AM

This whole episode sums up Dominion quite nicely.  Whatever happened to that "excellence" that CCP was going on about?

Friends don't let Friends vote for Boomers
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #6686 on: January 26, 2010, 07:33:27 AM

I doubt this was a bug.

Hitting a some alliances but not others? Doesn't look likely.

Betting on :lolgoons:.


Also as Endie mentions, with the degree of defender's advantage in dominion (no systems I'm aware of have fallen other than to overwhelming odds or chronic incompetence), this isn't going to be easily reversed.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:36:11 AM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Thrawn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3089


Reply #6687 on: January 26, 2010, 07:44:56 AM

I think it would be a fantastic slap in the face to Molle if Goons lose a lot of Sov to a bug/messup/idiocy whatever and still manage to defend Delve and push IT around.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #6688 on: January 26, 2010, 07:50:48 AM

.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
setar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 329


Reply #6689 on: January 26, 2010, 07:55:32 AM

Courtesy of SHC:

Quote
Someone posted this in alliance chat earlier.

Lead GM Grimmi here. We have investigated this matter very carefully and verified that no bug or server error was responsible for the loss of sovereignty in all those systems. Normal game mechanics were functioning perfectly as designed and therefore we will not be taking any action in this matter.

I have to admit, with any other alliance (PL excluded) I'd feel very bad about this. Not in this case, though.

EVE - Yalson [BDCI] [-A-]
setar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 329


Reply #6690 on: January 26, 2010, 08:00:38 AM

Description on CAOD fits with the recent stories here about a certain lack of leadership:

Quote
Payments / bills to cover the sov for Goons was left in the WRONG wallet without automatic payment selected, apparently after the recent 49- drama Goon leaders decided to put majority of the master wallet ISK into cap replacements and other sov related stuff, they assumed the Bill requirements WAS once every 28 days which is pretty stupid if you ask me since it SHOWS bills,..

Most of the directors of GoonSwarm who had access to the wallets didnt bother managing their alliance and instead when the timer was up the ISK that remained only covered a fraction of the sovereignty,..

In other words, Goons fail

EVE - Yalson [BDCI] [-A-]
Thrawn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3089


Reply #6691 on: January 26, 2010, 08:04:05 AM

While I have no doubt that Goons are capable of a screw up on that scale, how does that at all explain reports that this happened to multiple alliances across 0.0?

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #6692 on: January 26, 2010, 08:06:36 AM

While I have no doubt that Goons are capable of a screw up on that scale, how does that at all explain reports that this happened to multiple alliances across 0.0?

Auto payment has only existed for 2 cycles, all the CCP seeded TCUs were due today, and by multiple alliances across 0.0, people actually mean Goons, xDeathx, and a few alliances who probably don't know wtf.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647

Diluted Fool


Reply #6693 on: January 26, 2010, 08:07:24 AM

Clearly, the combined directorate of six alliances, not on the same side, managed to make the same mistake on the same day.  That's a lot more likely than an entire rewrite of the sov system having any bugs.  

I mean, everything has been bug-free and stable up to this point in the expansion, right?

Witty banter not included.
lac
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1657


Reply #6694 on: January 26, 2010, 08:08:36 AM

So goons did clean out the relevant wallet - contrary to earlier statements. Ouch.

Apparently other alliances had too little cash in their sov wallets too but not on that big a scale.
setar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 329


Reply #6695 on: January 26, 2010, 08:09:00 AM

Unclear, Thrawn. It was the regular billing cycle; in some cases (such as AAA C) this was deliberate as they did not want to pay for that one system that lost Sov, in other cases (WI) it might have been on purpose as well (why pay for Sov when you evacuated the region?). Haven't heard back from the Russians yet, but I admit the chances of 2-3 alliances screwing up the payment cycle at the same time sounds odd.


EVE - Yalson [BDCI] [-A-]
Sir T
Terracotta Army
Posts: 14223


Reply #6696 on: January 26, 2010, 08:15:03 AM

Description on CAOD fits with the recent stories here about a certain lack of leadership:

Goons could be kicking out IT at this point and CAOD posters would still find a way to say "Goons Fail" HTH  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"apparently after the recent 49- drama Goon leaders decided to put majority of the master wallet ISK into cap replacements and other sov related stuff,"

And that's wrong. People have been bitching for the past week that a months worth of cap losses haven't been reimbursed yet.

No what happened here (according to a noted trollster on goon forums) is that All CCP said was that the money has to be in the executor corp wallet for the Sov bills, but they never specified it had to be the master wallet. And apparently their code doesn't know how to look in the wallet as a whole.

And this seems to have effected TCUs that were seeded by CCP itself. PLUS if it was a bill failure then how come none of the directors or those with access got warning mails? And why did sov drop at 04:00 am all over the place rather than downtime?

My vote is CCP BUG.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 08:36:53 AM by Sir T »

Hic sunt dracones.
eldaec
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Posts: 11839


Reply #6697 on: January 26, 2010, 08:15:25 AM

Clearly, the combined directorate of six alliances, not on the same side, managed to make the same mistake on the same day.  That's a lot more likely than an entire rewrite of the sov system having any bugs.  

It's not 'the same mistake on the same day' it's that they didn't get around to the monthly house keeping task before time ran out. And as Setar mentions, a lot of the sov drops (I expect some of the goon systems as well) are actually concious decisions not to bother holding specific non-station systems, everyone is rationalising sov in that way. Obviously this wouldn't apply to NOL.

And yes, I'd say its much more likely than this being the result of a bug.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Meester
Terracotta Army
Posts: 322


Reply #6698 on: January 26, 2010, 08:27:30 AM

Its an NC conspiracy to take Fountain!

IT capfleet in Delve means no IT capfleet in Fountain. It all makes sense now  why so serious?
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #6699 on: January 26, 2010, 08:48:08 AM

No what happened here (according to a noted trollster on goon forums) is that All CCP said was that the money has to be in the executor corp wallet for the Sov bills, but they never specified it had to be the master wallet. And apparently their code doesn't know how to look in the wallet as a whole.

Hmmm, what are the rules for alliance bill payment?

If alliance fees are taken from any division then I take your point, but I doubt that they are.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Endie
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6436


WWW
Reply #6700 on: January 26, 2010, 08:48:30 AM

OK I am pretty convinced that retardation on the part of our senior directorate at the very least played a large part in this.

Here is an ironic truth: if Molle and AAA hadn't launched their invasion two weeks ago nobody would have moved their stuff to NPC Delve and we'd all be fucked right now.  As it is, with my capitals in NPC stations with cloning services, I'm pretty relaxed.

At times like this, it really helps to be the sort of person who plays Eve for the grand, dramatic stories, because I'm hella intrigued to see what happens next.  Will we hold on?  Have we lost too many key nodes to survive?  What would we do if we lose Delve?

I do feel bad for Rebellion, Pulsar and ZAF, though, who our incompetence may have fucked.  Each of them deserves better.

My blog: http://endie.net

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"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
Numtini
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7675


Reply #6701 on: January 26, 2010, 09:01:41 AM

Quote
At times like this, it really helps to be the sort of person who plays Eve for the grand, dramatic stories, because I'm hella intrigued to see what happens next.  Will we hold on?  Have we lost too many key nodes to survive?  What would we do if we lose Delve?

This. If anything has sold me on Eve it's this kind of stuff.


If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
setar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 329


Reply #6702 on: January 26, 2010, 10:12:56 AM

Detailed description of what went wrong:

Quote
Here's what happened: all of the systems that were lost were the ones with TCUs that were seeded by CCP. Their sov bills all came in at once - today. So how did we lose our space? The same way xdeathx now confirms that he lost his sov. He, too, set auto bill pay up like we did. However, he fucked up and had the alliance's money in the wrong wallet division. Since the bills could not be paid, the TCUs all unanchored at the same time.

His TCUs all unanchored at the same time as ours. This isn't a coincidence. Since his TCUs and our TCUs were all seeded by CCP at the same time, they all unanchored at the same time as the bill became overdue. We had billions of isk in the wallet, but the autopay thing defaults to the master wallet. What probably happened is the corp's sov isk was placed in a wallet divison that would allow a few directors to have access without giving them the whole farm, but the bill pay system was set to the master wallet (by default). So it attempted to pay from the wrong division, failed, and unanchored our TCUs.

This can't be 100% confirmed until one of the few directors who have full access check (they're all on vacation). But we can probably assume that the same thing that happened to xdeathx happened to us. I don't think we're so special as to have our very own bug.

So, the bad news:
We lost NOL, F-T, I1Y, 1-s, and a few stations in querious. Also our JB system is dead and most of our important jammers are gone. Years of hard work literally ruined by a failure to check a box.

The good news:

(5:25:38 AM) dabigredboat: if this doesn't roll back ill be quiting
(5:25:41 AM) dabigredboat: 99% sure
(5:26:14 AM) dabigredboat: goons dont care about eve
(5:26:18 AM) dabigredboat: they care about themselves
(5:26:24 AM) dabigredboat: or making bad posts

Good night, and good luck.

Edit2: We've recovered 4 out of 15 stations that we lost sov in.

As well as:

Quote
at 04:06 eve our batch of Sov bills came due to be paid automatically from the Master Wallet. Master Wallet had ~282m in it at the time and first bill(but QY6) was paid leaving ~30.5m in the wallet at which point the rest bounced and CCP is a harsh fucking mistress. at 04:18 it looks like someone went 'oh shit' and dumped a bunch of isk into the wallet but i guess by that time it didn't matter.

edit: we almost lost 49- to this on the 25th except ratters kept enough isk flowing into the wallet for the bill to clear

And I guess you can read Mittani's follow-up for yourself.

EVE - Yalson [BDCI] [-A-]
Slayerik
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4868

Victim: Sirius Maximus


Reply #6703 on: January 26, 2010, 10:14:38 AM

I wish I had some fuckin fuel for my Thanatos :(

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
setar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 329


Reply #6704 on: January 26, 2010, 10:16:02 AM

And someone give Karttoon a medal:

Quote
name='karttoon' date='30 November 2009 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1259628180' post='5869230'

Just sit back, panic, and watch us miss-click something important and lose all of our space somehow.

Note the timestamp.

EVE - Yalson [BDCI] [-A-]
slog
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Posts: 8232


Reply #6705 on: January 26, 2010, 10:20:12 AM

I hear Jita is sunny this time of year.

Friends don't let Friends vote for Boomers
Slayerik
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Posts: 4868

Victim: Sirius Maximus


Reply #6706 on: January 26, 2010, 10:22:09 AM

wulfpax? anyone?

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Phildo
Contributor
Posts: 5872


Reply #6707 on: January 26, 2010, 10:30:54 AM

On a serious note (stop shitting up the War thread), I do think it's crap that there isn't a grace period of at least a few hours.  POS give you a 24 hour warning before going offline, why not the TCU?
bhodi
Moderator
Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #6708 on: January 26, 2010, 10:31:48 AM

The welp to end all welps!

I think it's pretty low form and bad planning of CCP, but hey - par for the course.
Simond
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Posts: 6742


Reply #6709 on: January 26, 2010, 11:09:04 AM

On a serious note (stop shitting up the War thread), I do think it's crap that there isn't a grace period of at least a few hours.  POS give you a 24 hour warning before going offline, why not the TCU?
There is a warning.  awesome, for real

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Phildo
Contributor
Posts: 5872


Reply #6710 on: January 26, 2010, 11:14:00 AM

Sir Molle posting on CAOD is not a warning in my book.
Fordel
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Posts: 8306


Reply #6711 on: January 26, 2010, 11:18:35 AM

So Goons "Delve'd" themselves in the end?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Endie
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Posts: 6436


WWW
Reply #6712 on: January 26, 2010, 11:27:45 AM

Yeah there are 48 hours of warnings I believe.  Two of the three people with the rights to see them were on holiday, the other one got back the day before and clearly didn't feel like checking his mail.

Also, Setar, the big long "how it happened" post is from Bu Jinkan and not Mittens.  As such it needs to be read critically as his view of what Goonswarm should do and should have done is idiosyncratic.  I agree with him in places, but he's a polemicist, not a reporter.

My blog: http://endie.net

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"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
Kovacs
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Posts: 109


Reply #6713 on: January 26, 2010, 01:23:33 PM


From the Devblog CCP Chronotis http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=711.

Quote
Any current or future bills which you have setup to be automatically paid will then appear in the Automatically Paid tab as opposed to the regular Payable tab you are used to.  In there you can see which are queued for payment and opt to manually pay them anyway if you desire.

The new system will try to pay the bill two days before the due date and then every four hours after this point.  A notification mail will be sent to the accountants in the corp that you do not have the funds available to make payment with each failed payment attempt so that you have a chance to transfer money between divisions for example in time

So that hapened?  And the most interesting question to me is, what's the over/under on the CCP annnouncement that they intend to revert R64 income to pre-Dominion levels Tinfoil Hat
Endie
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Posts: 6436


WWW
Reply #6714 on: January 26, 2010, 01:56:01 PM

We're having a lovely revolution right now.  Also, DBRB is killing IT fleets and has moved onto picking off the odd cap.  I'm stuck listening in because I'm stuck at a safe in NOL.

That said, being stuck one jump from NPC space with multiple safespots made in your only expensive ship that you've not yet moved to NPC space is a pretty relaxing way to face losing space.

My blog: http://endie.net

Twitter - Endieposts

"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
Endie
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Posts: 6436


WWW
Reply #6715 on: January 26, 2010, 01:58:00 PM


From the Devblog CCP Chronotis http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=711.

Quote
Any current or future bills which you have setup to be automatically paid will then appear in the Automatically Paid tab as opposed to the regular Payable tab you are used to.  In there you can see which are queued for payment and opt to manually pay them anyway if you desire.

The new system will try to pay the bill two days before the due date and then every four hours after this point.  A notification mail will be sent to the accountants in the corp that you do not have the funds available to make payment with each failed payment attempt so that you have a chance to transfer money between divisions for example in time

So that hapened?  And the most interesting question to me is, what's the over/under on the CCP annnouncement that they intend to revert R64 income to pre-Dominion levels Tinfoil Hat


What happened is that the three people who could get those warnings, including the person whose job it was to deal with them, were all away on holiday.

My blog: http://endie.net

Twitter - Endieposts

"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
Trouble
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Posts: 689


Reply #6716 on: January 26, 2010, 02:22:17 PM

Somebody theorized that there may not have been any notices at all. There was enough to pay for ONE thing, so it just did the check on that one price each time, instead of the collective cost. Makes sense. Anyone know if it works that way?
Ingmar
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Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #6717 on: January 26, 2010, 02:31:50 PM

This is incredibly entertaining. A+ goons.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Endie
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6436


WWW
Reply #6718 on: January 26, 2010, 03:22:55 PM

No doubt you'll hear about this via other spy-ridden channels: Goonswarm are going to Syndicate.

My blog: http://endie.net

Twitter - Endieposts

"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742


Reply #6719 on: January 26, 2010, 03:37:11 PM

War. War never changes.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
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