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Author Topic: War  (Read 1923831 times)
Endie
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Reply #595 on: May 17, 2007, 01:08:44 AM

I was unable to login during the fight. There was nothing left to do but loot when I got in. It felt like I was looting in a L2 mission. One goon had a civilian cargo expander fitted.

Yes, but that kinda narrows the gap when it comes to counting up the losses: losing a dread with crappy T1 fittings is a different proposition from losing one with officer fittings.  Not that I've ever flown one: I'm just going by the wild pricing that BoB folks were doing after the FT holocaust.

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MahrinSkel
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Reply #596 on: May 17, 2007, 01:20:44 AM

Yes and no.  There are certain things you *have* to put on there that don't come cheap.  Capital Armor Repairers (Capital Anything), Drone Control Units, Extra Large guns, etc.  I understand some people with more money than sense like to put Centus X-Type Armor Repair modules on theirs (same DPS repair as a Capital for a fraction of the capacitor, at 800M+ a pop).  But you can't fit a Dread or Carrier anywhere near properly for less than 600M+, and once you're that far in you may as well go a couple of hundred million more with Faction/low grade Officer modules for the rest.

Still, the 4B isk e-peens some people fly around are stupid for a PvP ship, better to put the extra into a decently fitted spare.

--Dave

EDIT: On the other hand, there's a reason BoB kicks your ass while outnumbered 8 to 5.  Within limits, quality does trump quantity.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 01:22:42 AM by MahrinSkel »

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #597 on: May 17, 2007, 01:32:32 AM

14 BoB dreads died, it was a lot better than FT and I believe only the 2nd outing for the gooncapital swarm.  I have no clue how the war is going to go, they don't tell us anything, but as a goon grunt I'm really enjoying the game.

I just wish they could do something to improve the lag.
Endie
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Reply #598 on: May 17, 2007, 01:36:45 AM

EDIT: On the other hand, there's a reason BoB kicks your ass while outnumbered 8 to 5.  Within limits, quality does trump quantity.

Too right.  Fittings, boosters, experienced FCs, people who've been flying dreads since they came out, SPs and so on.

The concern for the Bob side would be that the goons are currently going through their Kasserine Pass phase, of learning how to do this stuff, how to perform logistics mid-battle and so on.  I was genuinely surprised that their first couple of dread engagements ended up with a small tactical win and a moderate tactical loss (the latter a loss on the strategic level, of course, since 9-9 wasn't saved when the towers escaped).

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Simond
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Reply #599 on: May 17, 2007, 03:42:16 AM

Comparing the cost of ship losses rather than just numbers is probably a truer reflection of that battle (as the RA POS was doomed anyway) but that way lies madness. :D

I mean - what do you use for the cost - the value of the minerals which the module or ship refines into? (BoB's killboard calc works like this, iirc). A 'generic' , pre-set cost? The current market value in Jita?

And yeah, how a dread is fitted can make a huge difference in survivability...at a huge price. For example, if a T1 best named/T2 fitted dread has 90% EM resist and an Officer-fitted (plus pilot implants, boosters, etc) dread has 95%...the Officer-fitted one is (relatively speaking) twice as tough.

(Maths: Beam laser does 100 base damage. Dread 1 resists 90%, taking 10 damage. Dread 2 resists 95%, takes 5 damage).

Of course, when your multi-billion isk uber-dread gets called primary and evapourates under 400 superheavy beams of coherant light, you've just lost twice as much money as Joe Bloggs in his T2 dread. v smiley v

Also: Dave, got the name of the pilot with a civvy module fitted? ;-)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 04:18:50 AM by Simond »

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LC
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Reply #600 on: May 17, 2007, 04:20:41 AM

EDIT: On the other hand, there's a reason BoB kicks your ass while outnumbered 8 to 5.  Within limits, quality does trump quantity.

I can't understand why people are cheering for the "zerg". Do people really want a game where skill always loses to numbers?
Sparky
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Reply #601 on: May 17, 2007, 04:55:22 AM

Goons are occasionally funny assholes.  BoB are just assholes.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #602 on: May 17, 2007, 05:50:22 AM

I can't understand why people are cheering for the "zerg". Do people really want a game where skill always loses to numbers?

BoB recruit the oldest players who will have more skill points and generally more money than anyone else.  What you are really asking is "Should the oldest and richest players be able to push the other players around?".  The answer to that for most pvp games would be "yes absolutely". 

In this case the game isn't sharded and the most powerful alliance pissed off several other large alliances by being caught red handed in a massive dev cheating scandel.  So if BoB lose the war it's going to be because they cheated not because they are outnumbered at times.
Simond
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Reply #603 on: May 17, 2007, 06:30:41 AM

...and if they win it'll "because the devs are helping them". ;)

Also, if they win it's pretty much game over for 0.0 - BoB (and their serfs) will have beaten the entire rest of the game, so the game will turn into a copy of the Chinese server (one alliance controls everything and can't be beaten, new players cannot catch up, game subscription rate falls though the floor).

That's assuming that BoB doesn't just get bored and quit as well, leaving a hollow shell of a game behind.

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Drubear
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Reply #604 on: May 17, 2007, 07:07:21 AM

That's assuming that BoB doesn't just get bored and quit as well, leaving a hollow shell of a game behind.

(fair reporting - I'm in Ars ex Discordia, GoonSwarm) A chum of mine at work who's in RISE (one of the BoB Quartet Corps) claims that all they are trying to do is prove to themselves that they can "win" the game (and exterminate [his word] Goons appears to be an emotional, albeit secondary, goal) and then will likely break up into 4 factions and end up fighting each other out in 0.0.

If you want to try on a tin hat, you might argue that this is CCP's Vision and why they're "helping" BoB: have 4 "empires" in 0.0 jockying for position with a little more verve than what goes on in Empire where ... wait for it ... 4 Empires are sitting soft and pretty in their own boundaries jockying in a totally bloodless and ineffective way (for now.)

Wonder if any of the BoB corps think of themselves as ex-slaves with another being luxurious hedonists...
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #605 on: May 17, 2007, 07:50:33 AM

...and if they win it'll "because the devs are helping them". ;)

No doubt, but I don't think the chances of them winning long term are very high.
Simond
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Reply #606 on: May 17, 2007, 08:02:22 AM

I'd say that depends at least partially on the speed with which CCP puts the capital ship rebalancing live.

At the moment, BoB can kill (almost) all non-capital ships on grid once every 15 minutes, then gate-array replacements in for their side...with no risk whatsoever to their titans. That is a fairly major logistical advantage, which will only get even worse as more titans come into play.

When the remote DD is removed, that sort of thing will be all-but-gone because anyone who flies their titan into the sort of laggy battle that was happening earlier this week will lose it, sooner or later.

As for the "BoB just wants all of 0.0 for their playground, and they'll split up once it's done", well...RISE may believe it, BoB might even believe it, but I wouldn't put any money on it. BoB plays to win - when the battles are only make-believe within the context of the game people will get bored and quit.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #607 on: May 17, 2007, 08:18:59 AM

I personally see BoB shattering after about 3 major defeats, as you said earlier they will see the writing on the wall say they are bored and a sizeable number will leave for another game.  I don't think titans are as important as they were a week ago, now that goonswarm has so many dread pilots.
Krakrok
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Reply #608 on: May 17, 2007, 08:23:41 AM


I'll reference Shadowbane here as an example of what happens when someone wins a server.

And who actually claims to own Delve? I've been flying around in it for about a week now and it's a ghost town. Empty is an understatement.
TripleDES
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Reply #609 on: May 17, 2007, 09:40:24 AM

...and if they win it'll "because the devs are helping them". ;)
CCP is still doing a great job at favorising BoB in whatever happens. Be it censoring/closing forum content, or GM decisions in the game. No surprise, considering most people responsible for the jobs are also players. So I'll continue to stay paranoid.

Quote
Also, if they win it's pretty much game over for 0.0 - BoB (and their serfs) will have beaten the entire rest of the game, so the game will turn into a copy of the Chinese server (one alliance controls everything and can't be beaten, new players cannot catch up, game subscription rate falls though the floor).
Didn't CCP break up m0o because of something similar?

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Sparky
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Reply #610 on: May 17, 2007, 09:51:58 AM

They sent a few battleships to spank a m0o camp as a sort of GM event once, and teleported them into deepest 0.0.  But I don't recall them being forcibly spilt up.  Some might have been banned for exploiting however (they exploited tons whatever the fanbois says).
TheDreamr
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Reply #611 on: May 17, 2007, 11:07:50 AM

Aside from being generally infamous, weren't m0o the bunch who worked out that you could sit in one of the big high-sec system (Yulai?), get N friends boosting your shield / armor / whatever remotely and then perma-tank concord as you ganked everything you could see?

Pretty sure I read somewhere that them not stopping said gankage when asked to by CCP lead to a lot of perma-bans being handed out (and the aggro rules being changed).

edit button addict.
Simond
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Reply #612 on: May 17, 2007, 11:49:53 AM

RA finally got their killmails, etc sorted, so:
http://killboard.red-alliance.info/?op=fleet&name=63

Redswarm forces. 43 dread + 24 carriers + 1 titan.
BOB forces 41 dread + 4 mother + 19 carriers + 2 titan

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Raging Turtle
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Reply #613 on: May 17, 2007, 12:09:27 PM

What?  Are those the current fleet numbers, or did 3 titans just get popped?
Simond
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Reply #614 on: May 17, 2007, 01:01:04 PM

Sorry, I wasn't clear - they are the fleet numbers that were involved in the recent battle in 9-9.

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LC
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Reply #615 on: May 17, 2007, 03:20:56 PM

...and if they win it'll "because the devs are helping them". ;)
CCP is still doing a great job at favorising BoB in whatever happens. Be it censoring/closing forum content, or GM decisions in the game. No surprise, considering most people responsible for the jobs are also players. So I'll continue to stay paranoid.

Quote
Also, if they win it's pretty much game over for 0.0 - BoB (and their serfs) will have beaten the entire rest of the game, so the game will turn into a copy of the Chinese server (one alliance controls everything and can't be beaten, new players cannot catch up, game subscription rate falls though the floor).
Didn't CCP break up m0o because of something similar?

It's funny because I was thinking the same thing about Goons/RA after having 6 of my posts removed.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #616 on: May 17, 2007, 03:59:59 PM

As has been said earlier it's not in CCP's interest for BoB to win the war.  Sure CCP got caught out covering up and lying to the community about one of their own senior devs playing as a senior bob member, the whole sharing dev secrets and cheating with extremely valuable items.  Sure one of BoB's closest allies LV had a GM piloting their titan and the senior members of that corp left LV and joined BoB.  Sure the CCP forums appear to me to show quite a bit of bias in allowing BoB posts and threads to get away with things that others might not. 

But no I really don't think the Dev's themselves are actively working in BoB's favour anymore, I really don't, if they were then there would be no possible way of defeating BoB.  I think they may favour them and I think the GM's (who aren't senior in the company) probably make decisions in their favour but that's natural as BoB contain the oldest players and I don't have a problem with that as long as they don't make their bias extremely obvious.
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Reply #617 on: May 17, 2007, 04:14:19 PM

EDIT: On the other hand, there's a reason BoB kicks your ass while outnumbered 8 to 5.  Within limits, quality does trump quantity.

I can't understand why people are cheering for the "zerg". Do people really want a game where skill always loses to numbers?

I can explain why I am, at least. For me, it's a war between a bloc that represents the idea that the Hardcore, Elite and Elder players are the ones who own 0.0, should own 0.0, and should exclusively control 0.0, with another bloc that believes anyone can contribute to 0.0 life, no matter how rich, poor, skilled, or noobish they are. BoB seems to believe that the high-end and elder-game toys are entirely for a small group of folks (themselves), despite it being well within the capabilities of a small handful of moderate players to run and enjoy some of that content - for example, a medium POS reactor setup.

It's not just BoB that has this idea, but many of the other 0.0 alliances share it. BoB is just the biggest, baddest motherfucker on the block and have locked down the most space so far under an Iron Curtain of Uberosity. BoB's attitude, statements and demands from tenants all point towards a contempt for anyone who doesn't own multiple characters, run capships nightly and spend 30+ hours a week in Eve.

In my view, as someone who's been playing for coming on two years now, if I have the skills and cash to diddle around in 0.0 and survive, I should be able to find somewhere to go and someone to take me, despite only being able to devote maybe an hour or two a week to the game, if that. Most corps and alliances see someone with that level of commitment as dead weight.

The Goons do not. Even "Mandatory" ops always come with the corollary attached: "If you have real life shit going on, go do that instead. This is just internet spaceships." Even if I can just run a T1 rifter tackler, as long as I can obey orders, I'm an asset.

If BoB wins, and the Goons are crushed and run out of the game, I fully believe that things will revert to how they were pre-Goonfleet: non-hardcore players will be shut out of 0.0.

That's why I fight with the Goons - so I, and semi-casual players like me, can have a place to play with the toys.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #618 on: May 17, 2007, 04:19:51 PM

The Goons, AAA, and RA as the heroes who want 0.0 "Open to everyone"?  You can say that with a straight face?  Okay....

--Dave (as long as we don't count the 10/10 complexes, true low-sec systems, or any assets you build that the New Masters decide they would rather have themselves)

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Yoru
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Reply #619 on: May 17, 2007, 04:21:42 PM

The Goons, AAA, and RA as the heroes who want 0.0 "Open to everyone"?  You can say that with a straight face?  Okay....

--Dave (as long as we don't count the 10/10 complexes, true low-sec systems, or any assets you build that the New Masters decide they would rather have themselves)

I never said RA. I never said AAA. As for the Goons, they'd take me as a semi-casual player. Yes, I used inside connections to get in. No one else would even touch someone who played 1-2 hours a week. That was the point.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #620 on: May 17, 2007, 05:05:20 PM

Once you join the Goons, nobody else will touch that character, *ever*.  The Goons have a well-earned reputation as thieves and scammers, a reputation they actually take pride in.  Wait a few months until the ConSov and defense upgrade patches hit, and you'll see everyone's 0.0 opening up a lot more.  It should be clear by now that BoB isn't going to lose this war, but I doubt they can really "win" it either.  This whole war has been about the major powers locking down space and taking more direct control of allies in advance of ConSov, after which it will get a *lot* harder to gain territory.  Just rebuilding the infrastructure will have built-in delays of weeks while high-level sovereignty is re-established.

--Dave

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Yoru
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Reply #621 on: May 17, 2007, 05:27:05 PM

Once you join the Goons, nobody else will touch that character, *ever*.  The Goons have a well-earned reputation as thieves and scammers, a reputation they actually take pride in.  Wait a few months until the ConSov and defense upgrade patches hit, and you'll see everyone's 0.0 opening up a lot more.  It should be clear by now that BoB isn't going to lose this war, but I doubt they can really "win" it either.  This whole war has been about the major powers locking down space and taking more direct control of allies in advance of ConSov, after which it will get a *lot* harder to gain territory.  Just rebuilding the infrastructure will have built-in delays of weeks while high-level sovereignty is re-established.

--Dave

I honestly don't believe that BoB would open its space up more with ConSov; I expect they'd do something similar to what they're doing now, but on a larger scale - taking vassal corps/alliances and planting them in delineated segments of their controlled space in exchange for large fees. It's a rare alliance that gets by without paying BoB rent, FIX being the obvious exception.

As for the rest of the powers, I have no idea whether IRON/D2 will survive the MC/YW onslaught, nor how those entities would react to controlling the North. I expect they'd operate along similar lines to BoB and the general 0.0 precedent of an exclusive club for the hardcore. GF started out with the FTZ being an excellent deal (in my mind), but it's since been repriced and adjusted to be similar in value to most alliances' rental terms.

And I'll concede that BoB certainly doesn't appear poised to lose. The North seems fucked sideways, while the South is still mired in a stalemate. Over the past few weeks, BoB has made a little progress, as illustrated by 9-9, but haven't made the sort of rapid strides we saw with RedSwarm vs. LV or MC/YW vs. D2/IRON.

As for "thieves and scammers", I think we've tread that ground before, wherein what's viewed as acceptable in Eve is governed by what you think in-game relationships mean in a meta-game context. Let me put my view of it this way: Do you think I tried to steal your wallet when we were drinking at AGC? Now that I've joined GF, do you think I'll try it this year? :)

Edit: my grammar, she is the sux.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 05:35:00 PM by Yoru »
MahrinSkel
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Reply #622 on: May 17, 2007, 07:46:26 PM

Well -YW- and ESA (the alliance that is taking over the rest of the IRON/FLA space) are truly independant, as I understand it their deal has nothing to do with BoB control, BoB has realized they're not position to protect or develop in the north and south simulataneously.  It's unlikely that PURE, Razor, and Morus Mihi will get taken out before ConSov, and unless they totally cave in internally, D2 has an outside shot at keeping a region in the far north.  And, for that matter, they might be able to push back and put IRON and FLA back in.

FIX and Xelas will keep their independant status (with even more autonomy, after holding the line against the Northern invasion), and we're going to be looking for residents.  IAC seems to have a pretty...loose recruiting policy.  The new regions are still a tangle, who knows what will come out of there?  Expect a 6 month building boom after ConSov comes in, with action only in the "no man's land" regions between the powers, plus a few campaigns of subjugation by RA against former allies (I would have expected some by D2, but they'll be lucky if they aren't the ones being subjugated, even if they survive).  BoB will be hard-pressed to develop the turf they already had, they really aren't all that interested in a lot more (although they'll keep fighting the Goons, and trying to destabilize/bankrupt the lesser RA allies).  BoB's main interest in the north is ensuring there's no new super-power emerging up there.

--Dave

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LC
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Reply #623 on: May 17, 2007, 11:51:40 PM

I never said RA. I never said AAA. As for the Goons, they'd take me as a semi-casual player. Yes, I used inside connections to get in. No one else would even touch someone who played 1-2 hours a week. That was the point.

So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #624 on: May 18, 2007, 12:12:45 AM

So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.

Are you in BoB?  Is it really like being in an elite band of space ninja's?
Endie
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Reply #625 on: May 18, 2007, 01:13:38 AM

So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.

You're funny.  I like it when you talk.  I mean that.

Edit: On a less CAOD note, here is the revised list of participants in 9-9:

Soco forces. 43 dread + 24 carriers + 1 titan.
BOB forces 41 dread + 4 mother + 19 carriers + 2 titan

That casts the results in a slightly different light, as opposed to 80-50.  Of course, the figures come from analysis of the RA killboards, so Tinfoil Hat is not unreasonable if you so desire.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 01:19:03 AM by Endie »

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Simond
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Reply #626 on: May 18, 2007, 04:15:33 AM

Well -YW- and ESA (the alliance that is taking over the rest of the IRON/FLA space) are truly independant, as I understand it their deal has nothing to do with BoB control, BoB has realized they're not position to protect or develop in the north and south simulataneously.  It's unlikely that PURE, Razor, and Morus Mihi will get taken out before ConSov, and unless they totally cave in internally, D2 has an outside shot at keeping a region in the far north.  And, for that matter, they might be able to push back and put IRON and FLA back in.
YW & ESA might not be BoB vassals per se, but they do hold their territory purely on BoB's graces. :)

What happens in the north depends on whether BoB drags MC back down south to fight Redswarm or not, IMO.

If BoB does, then the northern counterattack is going to flatten YW/ESA - it's only the MC capital fleet keeping the battle going up there, especially since MM took over. That might even buy BoB some time (contrary as it seems): If the north takes back its own territories, they're going to have to consolidate them before they try any further offensives.

If BoB doesn't, their own progress in the south is going to be slow, bloody, and costly - their vassals in Feyth aren't the most powerful combat alliances around and will be less help in combat than your average MC (or FIX, etc) types, so BoB is going to have to bear the brunt of the fight themselves. Losing a few ships in a glorious battle to smash your enemies once and for all is one thing - losing a few ships at a time in a meatgrinder of a campaign against an enemy which is showing no signs of giving up (and which your own alliance leadership has stated there will be no negotiating with) is something entirely different.

I'm expecting MC to be moved down south within a fortnight, personally.

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Reply #627 on: May 18, 2007, 08:26:09 AM

Once you join the Goons, nobody else will touch that character, *ever*.  The Goons have a well-earned reputation as thieves and scammers, a reputation they actually take pride in.  Wait a few months until the ConSov and defense upgrade patches hit, and you'll see everyone's 0.0 opening up a lot more.  It should be clear by now that BoB isn't going to lose this war, but I doubt they can really "win" it either.  This whole war has been about the major powers locking down space and taking more direct control of allies in advance of ConSov, after which it will get a *lot* harder to gain territory.  Just rebuilding the infrastructure will have built-in delays of weeks while high-level sovereignty is re-established.

--Dave

Come on dude, you're generalizing pretty heavy here. OH NOES, YOU WERE IN GOONIES! BANNZORED FOR LIFE

Plenty of 0.0 alliances aren't as elitest as you and your buddies and would accept an ex-goon, if the fucker had any amount of tact.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Nija
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Reply #628 on: May 18, 2007, 10:10:28 AM

So people hate bob because they can't join. That's a pretty good reason.

Are you in BoB?  Is it really like being in an elite band of space ninja's?

Not only is he in bob, but he was given a 55 million SP character. Which then helped him "get a leg up" in bob.

Now he talks down to us.

I wonder what'll happen to Eve when the GM-funded alliance crushes the only opposition they'll see. My interest in Eve is already at it's lowest ever. We'll see if that 'couldn't care less' addage is really true. Every day I don't think I can care any less, but every day I'm proven wrong.
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Reply #629 on: May 18, 2007, 10:39:05 AM

In comedy news, IAC declared war on neihbours I didn't know we had, in providence I think. Tyraxx made it clear THIS time the'll be no station attacking k?

I have no idea why we did it, it appers to be it was to keep the repuation of IAC as "angry drunks" intact. I guess attacking BoB/Fix etc wasn't doing much, and Outbreak wins every battle so lets go pick on someone smaller.

I'd be interested in joining goonswarm one day, but the more I read the war thread on something awful, the harder it seems to be able join them :(.

Defending the Galaxy, from the Scum of the Universe, with nothing but a flashlight and a tshirt. We need tanks Boo, lots of tanks!
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