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Author Topic: War  (Read 1923843 times)
Simond
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Reply #245 on: March 07, 2007, 04:17:31 AM

Does the coalition have anything that could go toe to toe with the BoB+Friends mega fleet?
I'd say that the real question is "Are RSF/the Northern Alliance smart enough to do the Sun Tsu thing and strike where the BoB CapBlob isn't?"

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Tebonas
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Reply #246 on: March 07, 2007, 05:26:31 AM

I just want to take the time to thank you people. The game itself always gets me bored after a few weeks (no tooth for PvP), but the news of the war are quite exciting to read.
JoeTF
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Reply #247 on: March 07, 2007, 10:44:20 AM

What MahrinSkel says is in especially stark contrast with D2 policies (selling allied owned space - WTF?!)

Also, don't paint this mess as some monumental "war that will end all wars", to justify massive gangbang rush it is.
I'm going to tell you what will happen - eventually BoB wallets will run dry and they'll have to decide whether to downgrade their ships and continue (in such case, we're looking at years of war), or dissolve(more probable tbh) for a while, just to resurface under different alliance banner somewhere else.

Don't expect a decisive victory - people killed here just respawn at the nearest station and most of BoB core have are used to changing corporate banners. You "kill" BoB, it'll resurface just like CA did (I don't mean new CA here).
Fordel
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Reply #248 on: March 07, 2007, 10:48:37 AM


and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
JoeTF
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Reply #249 on: March 07, 2007, 11:01:21 AM

Chorus of Dawn follows suit with declaring on D2:)
Fordel
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Reply #250 on: March 07, 2007, 11:17:35 AM

I do agree that unless something dramatic happens and someone figures out a amazing new strategy towards Fleet and POS warfare, that this current war will probably bog down into a total WW1 style stalemate. Containing BoB+Friends inside the Delve/Period/Querious tri-region isn't exactly a strangle hold on them economically. With RSF+Friends and D2+Friends having free reign of 0.0 that isn't the Tri-Region they won't have much difficulty maintaining their industry either.

BoB is stubborn, MC is capable and Fix is notoriously determined. The MegaFleet can move around in that region of space relatively easily and rapidly, but the further they try to push it out, the easier it is for the Coalition to hit the empty undefended space. The recent YouWhat turn is a small indication from the BoB side of the fight to try and gain fighting outside of their own home space. I'm sure BoB+Friends will get more folks to join their side and attack inside the Coalitions territory.

They overlying long term goal is for the action isn't territorial or industrial, just psychological. My guess is BoB is hoping some part of the coalition will get bored with the stalemate, or will get to tangled up with the guerrillas in their own space. Allowing BoB to go back on the offensive. I'm also guessing BoB isn't banking on this either though, and are fully prepared to turn the Tri-Region into fortress space and wait out the war for the long run. Maybe hoping for constellation sovereignty or something from CCP?  tongue hehe


and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Simond
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Reply #251 on: March 07, 2007, 11:29:14 AM

So apparently YouWhat is done already?
Rapetrain haven't brakes.  evil

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #252 on: March 07, 2007, 11:36:02 AM

Massive, ranting screed of straw-man construction mixed in with hagiobobgraphy.

Erm, you never really quite say what it is you are disagreeing with, just make wild, arm-flinging statements about people "believing their own propaganda" and "throwing stuff around".  Were you disagreeing with me?  What bit?  All I said is that what I kept reading as justification was past dev involvement in a game-rule-breaking way with BoB (absolutely true, and proven as such, although I didn't say I agreed with it in my post) and that Fix, Xelas, MC etc were penetrated by Bob alts and spies (again, I didn't state this as my opinion, but it would be amazing if they were not, given that their enemies certainly are).

You don't need to justify yourself yet again here with the same old "Fix's relationship with BoB is more complex than that!" thing.  Really.  The bit I agree with is that you have, indeed, made your bed now.  Who knows?  maybe you'll win out.  Not where my money is, but always possible if BoB's metagame is better than the Mittani's.

See, this is my point, the propaganda and projection has caused a total disconnect from reality in the anti-BoB forces.  We're not fighting alongside BoB because we're afraid of what BoB will do to us if we don't.  We're fighting alongside BoB because everybody who hates BoB has declared they want to kill us *first*.  MC really would have taken a a contract against BoB.  FIX really would have stayed home in Querious if nobody had attacked us there (we never did attack ASCN, although we did stage some reprisal raids against POS).  And BoB wouldn't have made any reprisals against us, if they had been forced to admit they needed our help they would have come to us and cut a deal.

You're projecting this culture of fear and submission that just doesn't exist.  You're making decisions based on this fantasy, and those decisions are becoming more and more hysterical (in every sense of the word).

--Dave

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Endie
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Reply #253 on: March 07, 2007, 12:00:19 PM

Massive, ranting screed of straw-man construction mixed in with hagiobobgraphy.

Erm, you never really quite say what it is you are disagreeing with, just make wild, arm-flinging statements about people "believing their own propaganda" and "throwing stuff around".  Were you disagreeing with me?  What bit?  All I said is that what I kept reading as justification was past dev involvement in a game-rule-breaking way with BoB (absolutely true, and proven as such, although I didn't say I agreed with it in my post) and that Fix, Xelas, MC etc were penetrated by Bob alts and spies (again, I didn't state this as my opinion, but it would be amazing if they were not, given that their enemies certainly are).

You don't need to justify yourself yet again here with the same old "Fix's relationship with BoB is more complex than that!" thing.  Really.  The bit I agree with is that you have, indeed, made your bed now.  Who knows?  maybe you'll win out.  Not where my money is, but always possible if BoB's metagame is better than the Mittani's.

See, this is my point, the propaganda and projection has caused a total disconnect from reality in the anti-BoB forces.  We're not fighting alongside BoB because we're afraid of what BoB will do to us if we don't.  We're fighting alongside BoB because everybody who hates BoB has declared they want to kill us *first*.  MC really would have taken a a contract against BoB.  FIX really would have stayed home in Querious if nobody had attacked us there (we never did attack ASCN, although we did stage some reprisal raids against POS).  And BoB wouldn't have made any reprisals against us, if they had been forced to admit they needed our help they would have come to us and cut a deal.

You're projecting this culture of fear and submission that just doesn't exist.  You're making decisions based on this fantasy, and those decisions are becoming more and more hysterical (in every sense of the word).

--Dave

Oh for fuck's sake there you go again!  Stop building straw men!  Where did I say anything about believing you did it because of "fear and submission".  You aren't even reading what I wrote.  Not even slightly.  By all means have mad arguments with yourself, frothing wildly about those who dare disagree, but don't drag me into it, make up stuff and pretend I said it.

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MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #254 on: March 07, 2007, 12:07:16 PM

WTF?  Did you ever find yourself trying to have a conversation, and the person you were talking to said something so totally off the wall that you found yourself wondering if you were even talking the same language?  Yeah, we've got one of *those* moments.

I try to explain what the real relationship between BoB and FIX is, and you tell me it is irrelevant.  I try to explain how what you are saying about FIX not being able to cross BoB because we're filled with BoB alts and spies is completely off the mark, and you start going on about strawmen.  At this point, I can conclude one of two things:

1) You're a flaming loon.

2) You're engaging in the Chewbacca Defense school of tactical forum warrioring.

--Dave

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Krakrok
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Reply #255 on: March 07, 2007, 12:15:46 PM


Forum warriors hooooooooooooooooooo!
Endie
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Reply #256 on: March 07, 2007, 12:18:34 PM

Edit: got rid of worst trolling.  NDA

Let me trim down what I said about alts and spies, getting rid of those tricky extra clauses and brackets:

Quote
All I said is that what I kept reading as justification was... that Fix, Xelas, MC etc were penetrated by Bob alts and spies (again, I didn't state this as my opinion, but it would be amazing if they were not, given that their enemies certainly are).

That is reported opinion, not mine.  I've put bits in bold, too, just to help you.  I merely add that I, personally, would be surprised if BoB didn't have spies and alts in Fix, since they have them in everyone else.  Ie in GF, RA, and all the rest of your enemies.  Hardly an unbalanced jab at Fix.  And if you read things more carefully, you'd notice earlier on I said that I thought Fix were the most likely to have an independent exit strategy planned.

I look forward to your response, denying my assertion that Xelas eat babies and Fix are Satanists, or some other non-sequitor.

Quote
1) You're a flaming loon.

2) You're engaging in the Chewbacca Defense school of tactical forum warrioring.

That's very special.  Funnily enough, until recently you struck me as a really valuable poster, who would be calm and balanced and offer great insights.  These last few posts are like you are sleep deprived or something.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 12:25:38 PM by Endie »

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MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #257 on: March 07, 2007, 12:28:53 PM

Okay, one more try:

If the anti-BoB forces are making the decision not to diplomatically approach or militarily bypass the BoB police alliances because they believe them to be so filled with alts and spies from BoB as to be incapable of any action short of complete support of BoB, they are making decisions based on a *massive* misunderstanding of the real situation inside of BoB space.  These decisions appear to be based on propaganda they've been repeating to each other so long they have come to have the force of fact.

Seeing this presentation in CAOD and other fora of "facts" that are completely contrary to reality but have become a self-reinforcing substitute for it, as a student of player mass behaviour I cannot help but attempt to theorize about the dynamics involved.  This is me wearing my "Game Designer" hat, the mass behaviour of players is a source of endless fascination to me.

--Dave

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Fordel
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Reply #258 on: March 07, 2007, 12:31:07 PM

I won't get into anything else about BoB and Tenants and whatnot, but:

Quote
MC really would have taken a a contract against BoB.


Is crap. There just isn't any way MC would go against the people housing their prized capyards for their capfleet. Wait, let me alter that. They would go against BoB, if someone could offer them new space with brand new capyards to replace all the old capyards they would inevitably lose against BoB AND if someone could also guarantee protection from BoB retribution after the move to the new space containing the new yards and stations for them.


The first isn't very likely (but possible), the second isn't possible. Not only can no one provide that kind of protection, which alliance is going to house the MC fleet as a 'neutral' entity if it's already "betrayed" its former landlord?

I'm sure MC loves to think itself neutral (or did at least), a pure merc corp and whatnot... but once the capyards went up in BoB space, they tied themselves to BoB. No amount of ISK would let anyone hire them against BoB. The space they hold in BoB land is worth far more to them then any amount of ISK. You can't buy that kind of security and loyalty that BoB has provided to MC.


With that said, I wouldn't do anything different if I was in charge of MC either. It was clear that in order to be effective mercs on a alliance level, you needed to get in on the capital game. It was also clear the capital game had a new set of rules regarding territory and resource requirements. MC made a good deal, shit a great deal with BoB. Still doesn't mean they would be impartial in terms of contracts though. Going against BoB would mean going back to pre-capital empire war merc'ing, since no one would trust them to house them in their own space and their own capital fleet would eventually be depleted. The only other recourse would be to become a 0.0 power themselves, but then, they wouldn't be mercs anymore.


and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #259 on: March 07, 2007, 12:44:37 PM

I won't get into anything else about BoB and Tenants and whatnot, but:

Quote
MC really would have taken a a contract against BoB.


Is crap. There just isn't any way MC would go against the people housing their prized capyards for their capfleet. Wait, let me alter that. They would go against BoB, if someone could offer them new space with brand new capyards to replace all the old capyards they would inevitably lose against BoB AND if someone could also guarantee protection from BoB retribution after the move to the new space containing the new yards and stations for them.


The first isn't very likely (but possible), the second isn't possible. Not only can no one provide that kind of protection, which alliance is going to house the MC fleet as a 'neutral' entity if it's already "betrayed" its former landlord?

I'm sure MC loves to think itself neutral (or did at least), a pure merc corp and whatnot... but once the capyards went up in BoB space, they tied themselves to BoB. No amount of ISK would let anyone hire them against BoB. The space they hold in BoB land is worth far more to them then any amount of ISK. You can't buy that kind of security and loyalty that BoB has provided to MC.


With that said, I wouldn't do anything different if I was in charge of MC either. It was clear that in order to be effective mercs on a alliance level, you needed to get in on the capital game. It was also clear the capital game had a new set of rules regarding territory and resource requirements. MC made a good deal, shit a great deal with BoB. Still doesn't mean they would be impartial in terms of contracts though. Going against BoB would mean going back to pre-capital empire war merc'ing, since no one would trust them to house them in their own space and their own capital fleet would eventually be depleted. The only other recourse would be to become a 0.0 power themselves, but then, they wouldn't be mercs anymore.
And again we have a failure to understand the essential nature of BoB and their relationships to the police alliances (although to be fair, the MC relationship is particularly unique).  Part of the MC/BoB deal since the beginning has been the prospoect that someday MC would take a contract against BoB.  There are all kinds of provisions for that event, how MC would not use their leasehold in Period Basis as a military or economic base for attacks on BoB, how BoB would not engage in attacks on that constellation, how neither would take any action with or against any capital ships being built there for the duration of the contract.  Even clauses about how to handle it if a 4th party (not BoB or the client) attacked MC space during the contract.

Remember, BoB respects military capability above all else, and they've understood MC's nature since the beginning.  When Seleene said they really wanted the anti-BoB forces to come to them with offers, he was dead serious, it was the best chance they ever were going to get to prove they really were independant.  But they got no offers at all, no responses to their inquiries.

--Dave

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Endie
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Reply #260 on: March 07, 2007, 12:46:12 PM

Okay, one more try:

Try not to do that: it comes across as extremely condescending.  And I suspect that everyone gets the "Fix really, really aren't Bob slaves" line, not least since you have stated this in many, many posts for as long as I remember.  We're not your audience for that argument anyway.  None of us are the ones deciding where the Swarm or NC attack next.  I, for one, was discussing why the reasons you originally gave weren't ones I'd read much of at all.  I suspect that outside of COAD, most people have a more nuanced view in any case.

And the "straw men" you say I am going on about were pertinent.  This is what they are (definition 2).  My frustration was that you kept criticising me for saying things I have not said.  To be clear, I do not think that you could not make separate arrangements with GF etc..  Other people disagree.  But I can certainly see a number of reasons why, to the coalition, you might be more useful on Bob's side for the moment than neutral.

Edit: spelling.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 12:48:27 PM by Endie »

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MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #261 on: March 07, 2007, 01:32:22 PM

Okay, one more try:

Try not to do that: it comes across as extremely condescending.
Hi there, we obviously haven't met, I'm Dave Rickey, aka "Mahrin Skel", aka "that pompous, arrogant prick".  Nice to meet you.
Quote
 And I suspect that everyone gets the "Fix really, really aren't Bob slaves" line, not least since you have stated this in many, many posts for as long as I remember.  We're not your audience for that argument anyway.  None of us are the ones deciding where the Swarm or NC attack next.  I, for one, was discussing why the reasons you originally gave weren't ones I'd read much of at all.  I suspect that outside of COAD, most people have a more nuanced view in any case.

And the "straw men" you say I am going on about were pertinent.  This is what they are (definition 2).  My frustration was that you kept criticising me for saying things I have not said.  To be clear, I do not think that you could not make separate arrangements with GF etc..  Other people disagree.  But I can certainly see a number of reasons why, to the coalition, you might be more useful on Bob's side for the moment than neutral.

Edit: spelling.
And I was pointing out that most of the reasons seem to be rooted in believing their own propoganda.  I've seen a great deal of it thrown around.  There's definitely different flavors, the RedSwarm propaganda efforts center on the "corruption" of the "Band of Developers", the northern propaganda about their imperialistic degradation of subordinate alliances.  *Both* appear to be projection, RedSwarm pointing out "See, we may have exploited the 8/10's for nearly two years and making it a point of pride that we grief and scam everyone, but BoB had CCP developers cheating for them," and D2 saying "We may be excercising a veto over all your decisions, but BoB is demanding tribute and not letting them own any stations."

All of these lead to subordinate conclusions.  If BoB has only been winning all their wars for the last two years because developers have been cheating for them and really aren't that good, then now that the light's been shown on it and CCP won't help them they'll be easily beatable, especially if outnumbered.  And if the subordinate alliances accept such humiliating terms, they can't have any pride and won't fight very long or very hard to protect stations and space that aren't even theirs.  And having made the decision to attack on propaganda that was half lies, they make decisions for how to conduct the war off these fantasies that have nothing to do with what's actually happening.

So they don't offer MC a contract, and put *the* elite PvP organization of Eve on the opposing side.  And they attack FIX's ED- station, one of the most defensible hardpoints in Eve with one of the most determined defense forces, with a strategic plan that calls for a quick walkover, easy taking of 9CG, and a launch point against Delve and Period Basis.  And they drive their own allies to the opposing side, by acting precisely the way they accuse BoB of acting, because they believe everyone knows BoB is worse.  It's a classic case of military/political blunder through belief in your own propaganda, and although I find myself on one side of it in-game, I am still trying to understand where it is coming from and where it will lead in an as objective as possible fashion.

What *should* they have done, assuming they had assessed the reality and not the propaganda?  Hire MC, send them against LV or some random scapegoat if they didn't trust them to fight against BoB, just take them off the board.  Ignored Querious and Fountain, blast straight down the A2 pipe to Delve, FIX and Xelas might harass the reinforcements but they wouldn't have laid in the tracks to try and stop a 400 ship freight train.  Neither is an option now that they've attacked directly against Fountain, Querious, and Period Basis and made true what they had believed: FIX, Xelas, and MC have no future separate from BoB.  Even if it wasn't true from the beginning, all three would have *wanted* to believe it was.

--Dave

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Simond
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Reply #262 on: March 07, 2007, 01:37:13 PM

If the anti-BoB forces are making the decision not to diplomatically approach or militarily bypass the BoB police alliances because they believe them to be so filled with alts and spies from BoB as to be incapable of any action short of complete support of BoB, they are making decisions based on a *massive* misunderstanding of the real situation inside of BoB space.  These decisions appear to be based on propaganda they've been repeating to each other so long they have come to have the force of fact.
But people did, back before the destruction of LV started. The general response from the BoB serfs at that time could be summed up as 'LOL'.

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Sparky
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Reply #263 on: March 07, 2007, 01:51:56 PM

Remember, BoB respects military capability above all else, and they've understood MC's nature since the beginning.  When Seleene said they really wanted the anti-BoB forces to come to them with offers, he was dead serious, it was the best chance they ever were going to get to prove they really were independant.  But they got no offers at all, no responses to their inquiries.

Well yeah that's the MC party line.  But I, along with a mob of other people, heard Seleene say on one of the Burn Eden TS sessions that they wouldn't hypothetically attack BoB for less than trillions and a relocation deal to comparable space.  Basically a "go fuck yourself" deal.
Fordel
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Reply #264 on: March 07, 2007, 01:57:42 PM

Quote
Part of the MC/BoB deal since the beginning has been the prospect that someday MC would take a contract against BoB.  There are all kinds of provisions for that event, how MC would not use their leasehold in Period Basis as a military or economic base for attacks on BoB, how BoB would not engage in attacks on that constellation, how neither would take any action with or against any capital ships being built there for the duration of the contract.  Even clauses about how to handle it if a 4th party (not BoB or the client) attacked MC space during the contract.


What would even be the point then?  wink That is totally why you hire MC, so you gain their very effective capital fleet to augment your own fleet. In every meaningfull way, MC is tied to BoB and vice versa. Though I suppose someone could cough up a trillion ISK and have MC shoot the odd BoB empire hauler (if such a thing even exists).

Which is my entire point, MC isn't neutral, they want to be, they may even think they are, but once you start making deals like they did with BoB, you've "picked a side" as it were. Once you get all these provisions and clauses about what you can and can't do so you can keep your corner of space, you are tied to someone else.


and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #265 on: March 07, 2007, 02:05:30 PM

If the anti-BoB forces are making the decision not to diplomatically approach or militarily bypass the BoB police alliances because they believe them to be so filled with alts and spies from BoB as to be incapable of any action short of complete support of BoB, they are making decisions based on a *massive* misunderstanding of the real situation inside of BoB space.  These decisions appear to be based on propaganda they've been repeating to each other so long they have come to have the force of fact.
But people did, back before the destruction of LV started. The general response from the BoB serfs at that time could be summed up as 'LOL'.

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
"Hey, since you so obviously love being BoB's bitch, why don't you let us show how a real man keeps his ho's in line?"  That was the tone of the stuff FIX was hearing back around the time of Prohibition, if we *immediately* turned our coat and attacked BoB, later when they got around to following it up they might help us.  It was an obvious invitation to weaken both ourselves and BoB in exchange for a promise not to beat us to death if we survived BoB.

--Dave
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 02:54:25 PM by MahrinSkel »

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MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #266 on: March 07, 2007, 02:07:18 PM

Quote
Part of the MC/BoB deal since the beginning has been the prospect that someday MC would take a contract against BoB.  There are all kinds of provisions for that event, how MC would not use their leasehold in Period Basis as a military or economic base for attacks on BoB, how BoB would not engage in attacks on that constellation, how neither would take any action with or against any capital ships being built there for the duration of the contract.  Even clauses about how to handle it if a 4th party (not BoB or the client) attacked MC space during the contract.


What would even be the point then?  wink That is totally why you hire MC, so you gain their very effective capital fleet to augment your own fleet. In every meaningfull way, MC is tied to BoB and vice versa. Though I suppose someone could cough up a trillion ISK and have MC shoot the odd BoB empire hauler (if such a thing even exists).

Which is my entire point, MC isn't neutral, they want to be, they may even think they are, but once you start making deals like they did with BoB, you've "picked a side" as it were. Once you get all these provisions and clauses about what you can and can't do so you can keep your corner of space, you are tied to someone else.
You'd get their current capital fleet, just not any motherships or titans that were still under construction when the contract started.  And like I said in another post, the smart thing to do even if you didn't trust MC's integrity would have been to send them to attack someone else.

--Dave

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Fordel
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Reply #267 on: March 07, 2007, 02:26:15 PM


You'd get their current capital fleet, just not any motherships or titans that were still under construction when the contract started.  And like I said in another post, the smart thing to do even if you didn't trust MC's integrity would have been to send them to attack someone else.

--Dave


But that would be the catch, if you don't Trust MC's integrity, why would you trust them to attack someone else while you are clearly going for BoB? Which is why the situation is as it is, since no one really does trust MC in that regard towards BoB, because of the previously discussed relationship with BoB.


So have we officially gone full circle on the MC/BoB topic?  :-D

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #268 on: March 07, 2007, 02:53:45 PM


You'd get their current capital fleet, just not any motherships or titans that were still under construction when the contract started.  And like I said in another post, the smart thing to do even if you didn't trust MC's integrity would have been to send them to attack someone else.

--Dave


But that would be the catch, if you don't Trust MC's integrity, why would you trust them to attack someone else while you are clearly going for BoB? Which is why the situation is as it is, since no one really does trust MC in that regard towards BoB, because of the previously discussed relationship with BoB.


So have we officially gone full circle on the MC/BoB topic?  :-D
So you think that MC is so completely without honor that if you attacked BoB while they were on a contract against someone else, they'd drop the contract and go defend BoB?  Even if that were true, wouldn't the PR value of that equal the cost of the contract to make it happen?

Eve is a game, people don't always behave "rationally", in pursuit of their self-interest, but instead act in accordance with their self-*image*.  MC really does see themselves as hired guns, available to the highest bidder, and would collapse internally if their leadership put them in such a position.

--Dave

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Morat20
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Reply #269 on: March 07, 2007, 03:35:54 PM


You'd get their current capital fleet, just not any motherships or titans that were still under construction when the contract started.  And like I said in another post, the smart thing to do even if you didn't trust MC's integrity would have been to send them to attack someone else.

--Dave


But that would be the catch, if you don't Trust MC's integrity, why would you trust them to attack someone else while you are clearly going for BoB? Which is why the situation is as it is, since no one really does trust MC in that regard towards BoB, because of the previously discussed relationship with BoB.


So have we officially gone full circle on the MC/BoB topic?  :-D
Our resident SC drone has a good point -- the smart thing would have been to hire MC to do something far away from contested space. If nothing else, putting them on the other side of the map and getting paid means they're not helping BoB. Between hitting whatever poor bitch had the bad luck to be the maximum possible distance from your BoB target and keeping enough at home to secure their own systems, you could have taken MC out of the fight.

If they reneged, they lose all the PR and rep they've built up. I'd have a gambled billions of ISK to try to keep MC neutral, and probably sweetened the pot by telling them that their space was safe as long as they played ball and did what they were hired to do.
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Reply #270 on: March 07, 2007, 03:47:01 PM

So you think that MC is so completely without honor that if you attacked BoB while they were on a contract against someone else, they'd drop the contract and go defend BoB?  Even if that were true, wouldn't the PR value of that equal the cost of the contract to make it happen?

Eve is a game, people don't always behave "rationally", in pursuit of their self-interest, but instead act in accordance with their self-*image*.  MC really does see themselves as hired guns, available to the highest bidder, and would collapse internally if their leadership put them in such a position.

--Dave

Why pay for it when the coalition has already gotten it for free? As far as the coalition's PR goals are towards MC, they've achieved what most of them probably already believed and suspected, that MC would align itself to BoB and show itself to truly be yet another BoB 'pet' etc...

 But honestly, yes, I do believe MC is capable of ditching a contract to defend BoB, or its own space in BoB space. It isn't a matter of honour really, just practicality. With all the various meta gaming, spying, alts and social engineering in EVE, how can anyone with alliance responsibility NOT take that kind of thing into consideration? The Devil you know and all that.

It comes down too, is it worth the risk to rely on MC's honour to stay out of the war? If you already think MC is in bed with BoB and you know there are in fact stipulations and clauses to MC's involvement in contracts against BoB, and there has yet to date been a MC contract taken against BoB AND your fighting arguably the largest War in EVE history date against BoB... why gamble? It isn't just the ISK, it's the very real possibility of getting a MC cap fleet up your rear when you aren't ready for it.

In the end, it comes down to MC's word that they wouldn't get involved... and since we established I (as the theoretical coalition alliance leader) don't trust them, why beat around the bush?






and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #271 on: March 07, 2007, 04:15:22 PM

But the coalition hasn't gotten that PR coup.  Those who already believed MC wasn't neutral see it as confirmation, but it didn't sway anyone who was undecided, and it didn't demoralize MC internally the way that the real thing would have.  A situation was created where MC had *no* choice but to come in on BoB's side (their shipyard systems being attacked, no counter-contracts being offered, everyone making it clear that as far as they were concerned MC was already with BoB).  MC would have gone to great lengths to at least appear neutral, if it had even been an option.  But the direct attacks removed even the possibility of just sitting it out (as they did in the ASCN war, even while the front line was right on their doorstep).

If the anti-BoB metagaming kung-fu was truly strong, they would have played on the weakness of the BoB coalition: The obsession with the appearance of strength.  If someone has to ask for help, they are showing weakness.  Asking for BoB to reinforce us when the ED- egg was under attack cost FIX points, it said we weren't coordinated or strong enough to get an outpost up on our own.  If BoB had been forced to *ask* FIX, Xelas, and MC for help in this war, it would have been a demoralizing humiliation for them.  They might have been willing to die alone, rather than reach out for it, and certainly would have to be taking a bad beating first, one that would have seriously tarnished *everyone's* belief in their invincibility, including their own.

But when 400+ ships on each front hit both Xelas and FIX, nobody loses face or morale (except for the forces who can't win even with odds so heavily tilted in their favor).  Nobody expects FIX or Xelas to stand alone against that kind of force, and the military and political neccessity of BoB to move to defend them is obvious and welcome.  We get points for holding the line against overwhelming odds, BoB gets points for a systematic demolition of the attackers.  FIX and Xelas are irrevocably committed to the fight, where we probably would have tried to sit it out otherwise.

--Dave

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MahrinSkel
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Reply #272 on: March 07, 2007, 04:33:59 PM

I dunno, BoBs terms sound pretty bad to me.  You have to split your corps pure carebear or PVP, aren't allowed to place your own buy orders for minerals(so basically you are mining slaves) and pay 300mil a week for the privilege.  However you do get what formally looked like secure space brought to 0.0, which I'm sure was attractive to a lot of people. 
Can't believe I managed to miss this one.  WTF?  FIX isn't pure carebear or PvP, never has been.  Delve markets might be another story, but BoB has never said anything to *me* about what to do in the markets, and I'm probably the biggest buyer and seller in Querious.  Including hundreds of millions of units of minerals.  And Q space is generally only as secure as FIX makes it ourselves, we see BoB ships south of the A2 pipe *only* when there's a significant territorial threat, before the recent events that had been a total of 3 times since the end of CODA.
Quote
Is BoB inherently "better" in a moral sense?  Well, I don't know much about D2, although what I've seen indicates they're nowhere near as reliable in their honesty.  But the RedSwarm success is built on the goonies "I shit on your game" attitude and RA's bottomless wallet from the systematic exploitation of bugged complex spawns over a period of years, so there I would say it's not much of a contest.

I look at it this way, if BoB soundly wins this war they're never going to lose one.  It's highly unlikely we'll get another anti-BoB "perfect storm" bandwagon of this size.  Now if BoB is a true hegemon then they can go about their plan as state on kugutsumen of taking over most of 0.0 and installing their pets.  Suddenly Eve's political landscape starts to look monochrome.  It would be as bad for the game if Redswarm or D2 was a towering colossus.  Maybe I'm being hysterical, heh.
BoB couldn't survive such a victory, they need an enemy to fight against as much as the Goonies.  Create a "Blue Doughnut" of BoB control through all of 0.0, and within 3 months BoB would be an empty shell and the police alliances would be ignoring it and making their own powerblocks.

--Dave

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Reply #273 on: March 07, 2007, 04:49:37 PM

BoB couldn't survive such a victory, they need an enemy to fight against as much as the Goonies.  Create a "Blue Doughnut" of BoB control through all of 0.0, and within 3 months BoB would be an empty shell and the police alliances would be ignoring it and making their own powerblocks.

--Dave

Indeed. The Empire collapsing from within is a timeless story.

Also, there'll be more when I do a full article, but I did get a good quote from Magnus (CCP Chief Marketing Dude) yesterday. Apparently there's CCP devs in all the top 20 alliances in the game:

"We have a very even distribution of CCP employees in the top 10 alliances, or top 20..."

Take that as you will.
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Reply #274 on: March 07, 2007, 07:28:49 PM

Less theory and if-then talk, more war updates!  Hello Kitty
Fordel
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Reply #275 on: March 07, 2007, 08:06:36 PM

Another station was taken apparently. http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=487892

Choo Choo.

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MahrinSkel
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Reply #276 on: March 07, 2007, 08:56:50 PM

And unannounced on CAOD: BoB/MC/FIX forces have destroyed several IAC POS in the FAT system and placed several POS of our own, apparently we're taking FAT.  Again.

--Dave (god, I *hate* that system)

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Reply #277 on: March 08, 2007, 01:46:57 AM

Yeah, one of the guys on SA reported the Catch thing most ricky-ticky on the forums:

Quote from: Munky73770
"47 dread, 7 mother ships, 29 carriers, 2 titans reported

Uh-oh.

Swarm get your asses up here lol  smiley"

I'm no pos-warfare strategist.  In fact, like most people, my grasp is tenuous at best.  My own thoughts would have been that BoB can take that system if they want, but that they really expose their cap fleet to AAA inparticular by doing so, and that that sort of size of fleet indicates an unsustainable tempo of operations (in terms of players' real life shit more than the ISK, I mean).

Am I reading this wrong?  I'd also have thought that them sticking everything in one place is an invitation to their enemies to do exactly what they did: go somewhere else and take a station in Feyth (BOB + Ragnarok titan turned up eventually, but couldn't swing it by then).  Is a station for some PoS's a good trade?

Does Catch have some huge strategic significance that would make taking it (at the cost of losses elsewhere) worthwhile?  Is it a choke system or a cap shipyard or something?  Would taking it mean that a large number of coalition systems were opened up to raiding, or that the coalition would for some reason be forced to counterattack at great cost?

Or are BoB just looking for a good fight in Catch?

Edit: fixed my stupid quote-nesting

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MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #278 on: March 08, 2007, 02:08:36 AM

It's really, really shiny.  The FAT area has roughly 50 or so belts of Arkonor (the most valuable ore in the game) *and* a 10/10 complex.  It's also more than 20 jumps deep in 0.0 and more than 10 from the nearest refinery, which makes the damned thing a tar-baby, FIX has owned it 4 or 5 times and it's brought nothing but pain and frustration in the end for everyone who has ever owned it, unless they gave it up voluntarily.  It's the Hope Diamond of Eve.

AAA isn't there anymore, they moved to Impass and handed it over to IAC, who, no offense, isn't nearly as scary to conduct capital ship ops against (they've never won a battle involving capital ships without being a minority chunk of a bigger fleet).  It's also *way* out at the end of their turf, about 20 jumps from their home systems.  IAC is over-extended right now and in no position to defend it (which, frankly, describes just about everyone who ever owned it).

Needless to say, I'm hoping FIX isn't planning on taking over that miserable hunk of gold-plated shit.  Get in, get the 5-6B isk worth of ore we've had sitting there for over a year, and turn it over to some other set of poor bastards who don't know any better.

Strategically, it's not worth much, you can't reach anything from it in cap ships but Empire and Stain. It's a potentially useful stepping-stone for reaching the BoB regions in the far south, but not essential.

--Dave

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Reply #279 on: March 08, 2007, 08:21:33 AM

It's essential if AAA want to keep the 10/10 and 6/10 complex nearby. It's not essential to IAC by itself (though it's nice to have an entire -1.0 system to myself, I never got an office spawn :( ) but as Marian pointed out, it's quite nice to have to NPC out of.

It's also a dooway into Gunboat Diplomacy (a BoB pet south of FIX) which makes it an essential jump of point for the Goonswarm when and if they do want to attack FiX or GUN directly.

It's also quite far away from IAC home space, or even IAC empty space (N-5 and V2), but attacking it means IAC no longer has to make 30 jumps to an enemy system.

I don't belive FIX can take it without BoB anymore than IAC can defend it without our friends either, though FiX vs IAC would probably be an even fight. AAA if nothing else will want to defend it, if they want to keep the nearby 10/10 complex. I have no idea if Goonswarm or other friends will show up or not, but I'm sure BoB will (unless FIX owns a couple of motherships and a titan, it was BoB+friends, not FIX+friends).

It's giving me practice at being a smal gang fleet commander, I help lead a small 10 man squadron in getting a first real kill, a Stain Empire Tier 2 battlecruiser. Yar.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 08:27:00 AM by Comstar »

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