War

[Sir T]

And really, GS is about the membership? Wouldn't it make sense to reimburse them for their cap losses, then?

Mittani made it pretty damn clear that if he had the power to get at the wallet, they would all have been reimbursed in a second. The fact that they weren't reimbursed is nothing to do with lack of money, but other issues to do with access. He said so flat out on a forum post. Sorry, but you are barking up the wrong tree here.

[setar]

And really, GS is about the membership? Wouldn't it make sense to reimburse them for their cap losses, then?

Mittani made it pretty damn clear that if he had the power to get at the wallet, they would all have been reimbursed in a second. The fact that they weren't reimbursed is nothing to do with lack of money, but other issues to do with access. He said so flat out on a forum post. Sorry, but you are barking up the wrong tree here.

Which is my point, but I probably made it poorly by mixing it up with the general funding situation. I don't think 300-400 billion ISK is a whole lot of cash for an alliance your size, but that situation was created at least partially by mismanagement of the territory you are holding (tons of sov bills). This ties into the general problems with logistics and/or leadership showing a disinterest (?) in membership.

As several GS members here pointed out, the loss of Delve might actually be a damn good thing, ensuring you guys do not stagnate, get a fresh leadership and ruin someone's day elsewhere in Eve.

[Simond]

Which is my point, but I probably made it poorly by mixing it up with the general funding situation. I don't think 300-400 billion ISK is a whole lot of cash for an alliance your size, but that situation was created at least partially by mismanagement of the territory you are holding (tons of sov bills). This ties into the general problems with logistics and/or leadership showing a disinterest (?) in membership.

Dyspro dropped from 200K/unit to 20K/unit. Half a trillion ISK is now a lot of money if you don'y have the FoTM Tech moons, purely because income has fallen through the fucking floor. Combine that with the utterly bloody ridiculous bills for sov, and you've essentially got the choice of "Let it burn and keep the money" or "Piss ISK away until you're nearly bled white (then lose anyway)"

Of course, this now impales Molle neatly on the horns of the same dilemma: He either needs to earn a third of a trillion ISK a month purely for Delve/Querious sov bills, or he drops sovereignty. And I'm not quite sure exactly how much he trusts you guys, to be honest. He did get burned by MC, and they were loyal and subservient pets to BoB for a long old while. -A- is closer to an equal and (let's be fair) has a history of opportunism. And you guys plus Stainwagon could cut his legs out from under him by just blockading. So he's probably feeling a little twitchy right now.


E: Actually, no. The people in his alliance who know what the fuck are probably feeling a little twitchy and beginning to pull out the spreadsheets. He's too busy feeling smug. 

[setar]

No idea on long-term relationships with BOB. As has been alluded to in this thread, it's been mostly an alliance of necessity (even that could be argued). Think it will be a balance of not having anyone to shoot in the South, and the pointlessness of gaining more space. I mean, even now we're going 'WTF are we supposed to do with Querious, anyway?'. Other than giving former FIX stations cute names, of course.

[Phildo]

Where are Blade., Aeternus, HUN Reloaded and Quarantine Zone actually living if Black Star Alliance gets the majority of Fountain?

[Simond]

No idea on long-term relationships with BOB. As has been alluded to in this thread, it's been mostly an alliance of necessity (even that could be argued). Think it will be a balance of not having anyone to shoot in the South, and the pointlessness of gaining more space. I mean, even now we're going 'WTF are we supposed to do with Querious, anyway?'. Other than giving former FIX stations cute names, of course.

Don't pay the bills for it, and watch IT crap themselves in a month? 

[palmer_eldritch]

The ISK issue isn't really relevant to what's happened, as we had enough ISK to reimburse caps etc and just didn't do it for some reason. The ISK is still there, in fact. What's emerged is that our finances were heading in the wrong direction, not that we were actually in trouble yet.

But there is a debate about how to organise the alliance in way which ensures ISK isn't a problem in the future.

[Thrawn]

But there is a debate about how to organise the alliance in way which ensures ISK isn't a problem in the future.

Goonfleet is currently moving to NPC space with no sov bills, seems like a solution to me. 

[Tuncal]

At times like this, it really helps to be the sort of person who plays Eve for the grand, dramatic stories, because I'm hella intrigued to see what happens next.  Will we hold on?  Have we lost too many key nodes to survive?  What would we do if we lose Delve?

Although I realize it will take some a long time (if ever) until I get to actually experience any such dizzying drama first hand, this thread just made me install Eve. Perfect time to give the game a try.

[setar]

Manfred's AAR of that long day. Initially an internal report, so you'll have to excuse the biased reporting, but I think it provides a neat overview of a very hectic day.

[eldaec]

But there is a debate about how to organise the alliance in way which ensures ISK isn't a problem in the future.

Without sov costs or any need to lose cap fleets over and over, the wallet numbers Mittani was talking about will pay for a fuck of a lot of conventional fleet reimbursements. Especially as we have also have no need to be flying 500 man BS fleets into certain death for the foreseeable.  I don't really know what other costs we would have.


We get to test the 0.0-is-an-isk-sink meme I suppose.

[WindupAtheist]

So would you say that freed from the shackles of holding space...

[eldaec]

Har har, but at least freed from the shackles of expectations of goons being good at EVE, the spaced themed online game.

And our wallet is big for the league we now play in.

[Numtini]

Although I realize it will take some a long time (if ever) until I get to actually experience any such dizzying drama first hand, this thread just made me install Eve. Perfect time to give the game a try.

Never know. Took me 11 days. 

[Jayce]

Goons have the advantage of having had lots of R64 moons (remains of T20 largesse one could say) while Dyspro prices were still good.

[Sparky]

I'm surprised how high goon morale is.  Everyone is having fun blurfing in TWR about what we should do next and Darius is back ready to neglect his kid for the swarm.  Freed from the shackles of our Delve stagnation and terrible leadership Goonswarm does seem to be more dangerous than you could possibly imagine.

[MahrinSkel]

We had to destroy the alliance in order to save it?

--Dave

[slog]

We had to destroy the alliance in order to save it?

--Dave

Haha.

In General we  became more and more like Bob every day we owned it.

[WindupAtheist]

Goons as giant elite galactic empire fighting an endless defensive battle was lame anyway. Goons as idiot space vagrants who got thrown out because they forgot to pay their space rent is much more fun, at least from where I'm sitting.

[Fordel]

Goons as giant elite galactic empire fighting an endless defensive battle was lame anyway. Goons as idiot space vagrants who got thrown out because they forgot to pay their space rent is much more fun, at least from where I'm sitting.

Exactly!

It was only a couple of weeks ago that I was lamenting that the Goons hadn't done anything incredibly retarded and wacky in such a long time. Then boom!

[Sir T]

[ 2010.01.28 00:17:53 ] Dirk Altman > i hardly ever smack i just think this is hilarious the alliance that talks shit 24-7 even talks shit after they get their asses kicked its a perfect example of your problems

Setar, you should really have smacking classes in your alliance. :D

[setar]

I don't even notice that stuff as I've got local minimized. Wait. Why is he smacking you and not shooting CVA, anyway?

Interesting turnout in D-G, btw. 320 -A- show up in the battle report, about 95% of the peak number in alliance channel. About 30 supercaps (okay, 15 of those were BDCI who are for the most part a bunch of old and rich players, but still), over 100 caps. And CVA decided to jump in... then jump out again after loading grid, then jumps in again. What the... ?

I really feel sorry for the CVA folks, they lost a station and by now probably more than a hundred capitals, but.. why did anyone think this possible could end well?

[Slayerik]

CVA only had half a prayer if Goons kept AAA distracted...now? Good fuckin' luck.

[lac]

Now it becomes clear why they dropped so many stations. Those are dickstations, meant to wear the opposition down through endless grind.

[Endie]

It looks like the Providence vs AAA fight turned into a Y2 of sorts, with very large numbers of logged-off capitals being shot a very long time afterwards (up to forty turning up at one point on a gate at one point allegedly, though no doubt Setar will know more than what I've been able to glean).  Serves CVA right for breaking their RP immersion and ctrl-Qing in the first place 

When numbers reached over 1200 or so, even on a reinforced node, CVA's inexperienced fleet was never giong to win.  Goonswarm's excellent results in 49- when heavily outnumbered on the Saturday night, for instance, was mostly down to pilots and FCs who were experienced in lag management due to three years of fighting in big fights, especially pre-Apocrypha.  AAA has that experience (in a way that much of IT doesn't).  Providence has probably only experienced similar lag three times that I can think of over the last three years: even the Tri fights were pretty smooth after grid loaded.

Even without going into the more esoteric stuff that gives people an edge, I bet that huge numbers of Providence subcap pilots in particular went into that fight with auto-repeat on, extravagant overview settings, unrealistic graphical settings and tags showing for all sorts of stuff.  Even if someone tells you how to fight in high lag it takes practise to get it all set up and to carry it out at the time.  Most of all you need a zen-like calm when waiting for a gun to unjam or grid to load, and clicking stuff and queuing it up just makes it worse.

I think this is going to turn out badly for both Providence and AAA in the medium term.  Providence now realise that, with AAA around and unpreoccupied, they have zero chance of expansion without actually begging.  All they can do now is eat the loss, run defence gangs for the inevitable return to large HAC/recon gangs, and rat and mine (with Jade Constantwhine now playing the look-at-me-I'm-relevant jackal and Star Fraction cloakers pretending to be blackops in key systems).  AAA, in return, may have fatally undermined their best asset through pride and paranoid over-reaction.

When AAA faced a grinding campaign and likely loss in Querious, CVA's gamble had a distant gambler's chance about it.  Yet again Goons have fucked things up for those around us through our failure to click a button. v0v

[eldaec]

I think AAAs medium to long term problem is simply that they have reached the reasonable limit of an important internet space empire. This CVA thing is a distraction that probably won't go anywhere because even if AAA do take a couple of CVA's 800 stations, defenders advantage will eventually kick in and it is hard to see why an AAA member really wants to X up for the extreme fleet warfare dominion requires - just to get some more loss making space. On the other hand as conflict grows deeper, the threat to CVA becomes more serious, and they will figure out lag-fu and will be more likely to X up for longer.

I suspect the AAA 'we're partners in pvp' faction will grow quickly.

IT will be in the same place once they establish themselves, and it is exactly the same problem Goons had till the IT/AAA invasion and the subsequent Niart Epar event. Bob had pretty much the same problem before they were steamrolled as well. Getting to the top table is fun, being there not so much. This probably counts as good game design.

[Amarr HM]

Goons as giant elite galactic empire fighting an endless defensive battle was lame anyway. Goons as idiot space vagrants who got thrown out because they forgot to pay their space rent is much more fun, at least from where I'm sitting.

Yep pretty much. More fun this way.

[Endie]

Dastommy two days ago on the Atlas forums:

It is time.

With the removal of PL and the evac of the goons, we now have an oppertunity to end the NC. I want them dead and you know why because you were there fighting beside me. Left for dead and I want my revenge. Go make nice with molle and get on the horn with stainwagon. We have the oppertunity to open up 5-6 fronts against them and they will fall within a month. Hell call up the renters if need be. You know you want to liberate the motel and this will be our best shot.

Finish the fight and let's roll these bitches.

Today, Atlas et al joint ops channel motd:

Effective immediate ATLAS/COW/GC are to begin moving back to home space.

We are concluding our campaign in the geminate/vale area, it has been successful beyond any expectations.

Please move out in an orderly fashion, carrier pilots please help corp and alliance mates to move gear home, do not be asshats and just run away if you can help. Dread pilots of all alliances should see respective caps channels for safe and organized jump routes home.

Thank you everyone for participating, go home - bear it up for a bit - stock up on snipe hacs > rr bs > snipe bs and as always MORE DICTORS.

[Sir T]

NC were about to recapture 2 stations this weekend JC- and P-2

One wonders if this is due to this fightback or a sudden cooling of relations between noted "Always good allies" Mollie and Bobby.

In any case it would seem Tri will soon have a new mark to its name...

{edit} now that I think about it, it could be due to rumours of Goons turning up in the north. Naa...

[Endie]

NC were about to recapture 2 stations this weekend JC- and P-2

One wonders if this is due to this fightback or a sudden cooling of relations between noted "Always good allies" Mollie and Bobby.

Before someone else points out that Bobby was in Geminate and JC- and P-2 were on the other side of the map in Pure Blind, I'll do it for them.  With a bonus of "Molle wasn't involved in either".

But I suspect that Bobby sees the writing on the wall now and is getting out while ahead.

[Viper ShizzIe]

Sigh, releasing the pressure on the NC is only going to make the game more stagnant, especially with bob in Delve. Welcome to early 2007 again where it's just north vs south and nobody really cares enough to take any space.

[Slayerik]

Hey maybe if PL weren't such pussies this might not be such an issue ;)

[Phildo]

I'm cool with not taking space for a while, territorial warfare is a pain in the ass and hasn't been much fun in a long time.  IMO.

[setar]

Oh my. Sounds like we won't be able to go to the North after all as we'll be busy elsewhere. Quite unfortunately, actually, but... oh well. Aralis seems to be quite the character...

[Phildo]

You're actually going to launch a full-scale invasion of Providence?