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Author Topic: War  (Read 1922974 times)
Endie
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Reply #1050 on: August 13, 2007, 04:40:16 AM

So you're saying that Eve is a lot like the Island in the Sea of Time books?

But yes, that sounds a good bit more accurate.  But you're missed out the link where your italicised "this" is.  Unless you just meant you've now read this thread?

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Morat20
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Reply #1051 on: August 13, 2007, 04:49:30 AM

So you're saying that Eve is a lot like the Island in the Sea of Time books?

But yes, that sounds a good bit more accurate.  But you're missed out the link where your italicised "this" is.  Unless you just meant you've now read this thread?
I meant that the vast bulk of my war information -- most days all of it -- comes from this particular thread. I'm not anywhere near contested space in the game, and my corp has nothing to do with it at all.

But it seems pretty simple -- BoB's whole warplan and tactics (specifically their tactics regarding their foes numerical superiority) where built around Titans, by the time the nerf bat swung. That + Sov changes means BoB, even with heavy recruiting, has too much space and too few resources (pilots, POS, supplies, etc) to protect it. So, net result -- they have to contract and fortify before they have any chance of expanding again. Redswarm, on the other hand, didn't suffer nearly as much because they weren't so Titan intensive and because, frankly, they were losing territory before the nerf -- they had pilots, resources, and logistics to hold more territory than they had at that point.

BoB -- whether by plan or simply by default -- is trading space for time. Whether that will be a good trade for them, in the long run, I couldn't say. I'm obviously not privvy to their war plans or have knowledge of their resources, so I have no idea if the latest stand they're taking is good or bad for them.

Endie
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Reply #1052 on: August 13, 2007, 06:27:57 AM

BoB -- whether by plan or simply by default -- is trading space for time. Whether that will be a good trade for them, in the long run, I couldn't say. I'm obviously not privvy to their war plans or have knowledge of their resources, so I have no idea if the latest stand they're taking is good or bad for them.

There's really no evidence that Bob is doing anything ilke "trading space for time".  They have repeatedly made all-out efforts to roll us back, since their POS-spamming in Detorid and their two-day alarm-clock ops in 9-9, and they've just outright failed each time.  On this occasion, it looks like they've just nicked a result in 0OY, by deploying a multi-supercap fleet against 50 RSF post-downtime.  We got the tower into armour when DT struck, and some hilarious tower-password issues have knocked our numbers down further.  Of course, we have 30 days to finish the job, now...

Anyway, Bob managing to actually defend a tower from destruction (and presumably to take one of RA's tonight, unless something very odd happens) has one positive spin-off: perhaps Joe or LC will feel encouraged enough to post about their victory after weeks of lurking in the other threads.

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Vinadil
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Reply #1053 on: August 13, 2007, 07:14:54 AM

Morat's theories present an interesting possibility for those of us who are complete lurkers here (I live well within Empire space myself and am not even IN an active Corp at the moment).

That possibility is that everything over these last couple of months that has appeared to be "all-out" offensives from BoB has merely been a stalling effort by some of their more committed.  What if, when the time comes, they bring 50-100% more ships?  What if there is this large reserve that has been taking time off for summer activities, etc., and when they come back we will being to see the true size/power of the BloB?  I know that Morat is saying something quite different, but this is something that came to mind while reading the last couple of pages of posts.

If I were betting I would not give that theory very good odds... but it sure would make for a good story if it were true.
Endie
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Reply #1054 on: August 13, 2007, 08:05:55 AM

It's a well-known guide that you should never assume conspiracy where ineptitude is a reasonable explanation.  You have to remember that we've blown up or stolen almost sixty of Bob's towers as part of their retreat.  That would pay for a couple of motherships, half a titan or an outpost to give them sov 4 in a capital system.  Big money when their logistics guys are scrabbling around taking down towers from one system to shore up another.

Also, look at stuff like today: before downtime, numbers were even.  Yet an almost purely goonfleet op saw us outkill Bob on the only meaure that they care about: battleships.  Here is the outcome of the largest engagement at their POS, with no supercaps deployed, between even fleets (although they had carriers on-grid) and with no lag: Bob lost tempest, apoc, megathron, mega, eagle, mega, tempest, sabre, heretic. All Bob, no pets.  Our losses in the same time fight were rifter, rifter, rifter, rifter, vigil, buzzard.  We were very annoyed that we'd not managed to finsish them off, as it should have been much worse.

Apply a bit of Occam's razor here: they're just doing badly.  Yes, they'll raise their game.  Yes, there will be successes on both sides.  No, we don't know what the outcome will be in the medium term.  But for now, Bob are heavily diluted by their useless losers llike Shinra, and are flailing around whenever they cannot hide behind their supercaps.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 08:10:08 AM by Endie »

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Reply #1055 on: August 13, 2007, 10:45:14 AM

Small IAC update: ISS POS in 49-U destroyed and REPLACED (allegedly with fuel this time) with no problems or interference. MC was too busy camping HED with 3 ships.

Granted FIX still has more towers, but BOS has pulled out and gave their towers to IAC.

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Reply #1056 on: August 13, 2007, 03:02:46 PM

lol 10min lag.
And there is less than 150 of us - how many did you bring?

Edit:
355 in local and that's after RSF received some seeerious spanking and ran to their POS. Killmails incoming.
Edit2:
Goon total was aparrently 350, with titan and other awesome stuff.

Battle: http://www.killboard.net/fleetbattle/1040/
Post Battle cleanup: http://www.killboard.net/fleetbattle/1041/

« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 05:21:30 PM by JoeTF »
Merusk
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Reply #1057 on: August 13, 2007, 03:08:07 PM

Wah?

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Reply #1058 on: August 13, 2007, 03:16:01 PM

BoB verus RSF, big fight in 0OY at the moment.
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Reply #1059 on: August 13, 2007, 03:40:21 PM

Small IAC update: ISS POS in 49-U destroyed and REPLACED (allegedly with fuel this time) with no problems or interference. MC was too busy camping HED with 3 ships.

Granted FIX still has more towers, but BOS has pulled out and gave their towers to IAC.
Generally, allies pulling *out* is not considered a strategic gain.  Were they really that bad?  Anyway, AAA opened a second theater in ED- over the weekend, putting 5 POS there into reinforced on Thursday.  4 out of the 5 were saved (really bad stront timing on the first one), at one point we had more carriers in system than the enemy had BS, a total *wall* of carriers repaired one POS to 50% in less than 30 minutes.  4 carriers were lost, 2 as an object lesson in why Jump Bridges are not completely safe when the enemy has 50+ BS in system.  Friday night, a tower hand-off in 3-F turned very dramatic, when AAA recons shot the hauler as it came to scoop and relaunch the tower, then they scooped the tower themselves.  In the end, we got the moon covered again (I suicided a covert to get it online), and IAC wound up losing a carrier, net gain for the good guys (360M worth of tower for 1.5-2B worth of carrier).

ED- falling would be very symbolic but not the mortal wound it would have been 6 months ago (we have 3 other stations now, and ED- hasn't been very useful as a base for months).  And I don't see 49-U falling, IAC really can't do it without AAA, and AAA can't do both at once.  Really, IAC's problem is that Tyrrax is *too* clever, the byzantine schemes that serve him so well politically become Gordian knots of complexity strategically, which then become victims of the Alexandrian solution, as brute force severs some essential thread.  And who is *paying* for those billion-ISK ePeen rare ships he keeps losing, is he that rich?

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Morat20
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Reply #1060 on: August 13, 2007, 09:17:48 PM

BoB -- whether by plan or simply by default -- is trading space for time. Whether that will be a good trade for them, in the long run, I couldn't say. I'm obviously not privvy to their war plans or have knowledge of their resources, so I have no idea if the latest stand they're taking is good or bad for them.

There's really no evidence that Bob is doing anything ilke "trading space for time".  They have repeatedly made all-out efforts to roll us back, since their POS-spamming in Detorid and their two-day alarm-clock ops in 9-9, and they've just outright failed each time.  On this occasion, it looks like they've just nicked a result in 0OY, by deploying a multi-supercap fleet against 50 RSF post-downtime.  We got the tower into armour when DT struck, and some hilarious tower-password issues have knocked our numbers down further.  Of course, we have 30 days to finish the job, now...

Anyway, Bob managing to actually defend a tower from destruction (and presumably to take one of RA's tonight, unless something very odd happens) has one positive spin-off: perhaps Joe or LC will feel encouraged enough to post about their victory after weeks of lurking in the other threads.
That's trading space for time -- it doesn't matter if that's their intention (like someone sat down and planned it all oiut or something) or if it's just how it ended up. They're fucking around in 9-9 and a few other places that they obviously can't win now (but were fucking rolling prior to the nerf), but aren't giving up on. In return, Redswarm isn't pushing deeper into BoB space.

I'm sure they'd prefer more success in their efforts to stall in 9-9, but as long as it's still contested you're fighting there while Sov timers continue on in BoB space. (And yes, in Goonspace and RAspace and all that).

It's not a genius tactic -- it's what happens when you're overextended and get hammered because of it -- you give ground grudgingly while rapidly forting uip behind your lines.
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Reply #1061 on: August 14, 2007, 12:45:54 AM

lol 10min lag.
And there is less than 150 of us - how many did you bring?

Edit:
355 in local and that's after RSF received some seeerious spanking and ran to their POS. Killmails incoming.
Edit2:
Goon total was aparrently 350, with titan and other awesome stuff.

Battle: http://www.killboard.net/fleetbattle/1040/
Post Battle cleanup: http://www.killboard.net/fleetbattle/1041/

As foretold by prophecy, Joe actually turns up after this one!  At least you can tell how well the war is going for us that you post one update out of the last 45 days of the campaign.. nyuck!

Anyway, yes, we got spanked, and teamspeak was laughable: "can anyone who is in a tackler and reckons that they could actually get a point on someone speak up, you can speak on teamspeak..... [20 second wait] ... Can anyone actually hear me?".  Bob dealt with the lag better.

We should clear up one thing though: we had 170 at our highest count.  I had all the time in the world to do the maths  cheesy.  We know where the 350 comes from, though: Dianabolic has revealed on Scrapheap Challenge that they get our figures from teamspeak, which might work for Bob but doesn't for us.  Sometimes as many as a quarter of the people on our TS server are no longer even subscribed to the game, for one thing.  Oh, and the titan was one system away, jumpbridged us in and went to do other stuff: most of our allies had other, important business, and this battering was pretty much of GF.

We gambled on an unprepared system that came up as a bonus opportunity when SoCo was chucked out, and for the first time in half a dozen campaigns we got a kicking for our troubles.  It would be a brave member of Bob who bet his k/d ratio on still having it in a month when the cyno jammers come back.

Edit: Joe, by the way, you know that if you say that local is 355, and that you had 150, and that the Goons brought 350, you have a serious mathematcal quandary?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 01:16:42 AM by Endie »

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Reply #1062 on: August 14, 2007, 01:13:50 AM

That's trading space for time -- it doesn't matter if that's their intention (like someone sat down and planned it all oiut or something) or if it's just how it ended up. They're fucking around in 9-9 and a few other places that they obviously can't win now (but were fucking rolling prior to the nerf), but aren't giving up on. In return, Redswarm isn't pushing deeper into BoB space.

I'm sure they'd prefer more success in their efforts to stall in 9-9, but as long as it's still contested you're fighting there while Sov timers continue on in BoB space. (And yes, in Goonspace and RAspace and all that).

It's not a genius tactic -- it's what happens when you're overextended and get hammered because of it -- you give ground grudgingly while rapidly forting uip behind your lines.

When you are getting gradually pushed back while trying to stop your enemy then that's not "trading space for time", that's "retreating".  Trading space for time is a voluntary thing, whereas Bob (as shown in 0OY today) really do not want to be beaten again and again.

And the 9-9 thing really isn't what you describe: Bob would whip those towers out of there in a second if they could.  They're not keeping them there to cause us trouble, because they do no such thing.  In POS warfare they are utterly useless.  They have to keep fuelling them because otherwise *we* get them.  They can't pull them out because we'd steal them.  They can't send a fleet in to retreive them because they, unlike us, simply cannot operate under cyno-jammers: the losses involved are contrary to what passes for their tactical doctrine, and ni any case we saw what happened in the last four big 9-9 engagements without cyno-jammers: all-out murder.

And as regards RSF not "pushing deeper into BoB space", have you seen the maps?  The front has moved from Detorid back to Tenerifis, then into Omist and now Feythabolis.

Re 0OY, and away from trolling Joe, these things happen.  We can't complain at taking a beating today, after two months of straight success.  Bob managed to keep numbers advantages and supercap participation in a system for almost 36 hours: it's not sustainable but it is very impressive.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 01:17:11 AM by Endie »

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Reply #1063 on: August 14, 2007, 02:08:14 AM

Meanwhile, in Paragon Soul:
Quote
[05:53:59] Kirazk > 2007.08.14 05:52:36 Notify The station The LX5KW Exotic Dancer Training Academy has been captured by The Knighthawks corporation!
Translation: FREGE just took control of two BoB systems & a station with no opposition because BoB were busy holding the line in 0OY.

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Reply #1064 on: August 14, 2007, 02:26:40 AM

0OY is going to be interesting, it's been BoB's first strategic victory in weeks.
JoeTF
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Reply #1065 on: August 14, 2007, 04:48:22 AM

If my maths bad, then your reading even worse - I said there 350 in local after battle was over and most of you ran away to r97 or were either podded
I was inactive till recently and I try to comment on stuff I have actually seen or have decent intel about - rewriting stuff from internal forums isn't cool in my book.

BTW, BoB recently upgraded their killboard to contain fleetbattles, so next time you're reporting on some groundbreaking victory - provide us a link (I'm not saing that fuck up doesn't happen, just that your RSF friends have bad habit of withholding their loses). 
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Reply #1066 on: August 14, 2007, 05:28:46 AM

All killboards are inaccurate.

Especially ones that don't include 'death of pets' and whatnot ;). I don't even play anymore, but I remember when I used to fly around in small gank squads in 0.0 I would check the KBs of many of my victims afterwards. People just don't always report loses.

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Reply #1067 on: August 14, 2007, 06:17:18 AM

Oh yeah, from now on I'll be sure to add links to Bob's killboard, because in pos warfare Bob's inflated, pet-free k/d ratio really matters to us a lot.  Almost as much as it did when LV and -V- maintained even better k/d ratios.

Look, you actually won a fight that matters and saved some POSes for once: enjoy that!  Or interpret it the way you love to and say you now have a 5, no a 3/57 POS k/d ratio!  Don't fall into the trap of thinking that killing ships and losing systems is winning.  I don't know my k/d ratio, but I am certain it is awful: laughably, incredibly bad.  But I don't care!  Between BoB and RSF, the losers will not give up because they ran out of internet spaceships.

Edit: I gave them two extra POS kills by mistake.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 07:32:33 AM by Endie »

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Reply #1068 on: August 14, 2007, 06:59:27 AM

I'm skeptical that BoB's actions did anything other than delay the inevitable, anyway. Yep, it was a clear victory for them this weekend, but I'm not sure that it'll be maintained in the medium-to-long term.

If the transition from SoCo to BoB had been managed a little smoother somehow things might well be different, but BoB are now stuck babysitting a low-moon-count system with no cyno-jammer for at least a month and I find it extremely unlikely that they'll be able to maintain their present turnout (multiple titans & motherships, dozens of carriers & dreads, a full support fleet for the above, etc) for that length of time without weakening their defences elsewhere. Especially given that the lack of cynojammer is practically inviting the Reds to park a sizable dread fleet in a nearby system and wait for someone in BoB to have a momentary lapse of concentration.

RSF just needs to be lucky once - BoB need to be good all the time, 23/7, for a month. ;)

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Reply #1069 on: August 14, 2007, 10:49:37 AM

So we're now Post Stalingrad, and gearing up for Kursk? :)

AAA hasd 2 POS's in reinforced in FIX system of ED-. 2 POS's saved, Cyro Jammer down again, and the clone facility is down in the station.

As far as I can tell, FIX made no attempt to stop it.

Lag was bad for me, 5-10 minutes to do anything in system.

Total of about 150-200 in system.

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Reply #1070 on: August 14, 2007, 01:27:21 PM

Oh yeah, from now on I'll be sure to add links to Bob's killboard, because in pos warfare Bob's inflated, pet-free k/d ratio really matters to us a lot.  Almost as much as it did when LV and -V- maintained even better k/d ratios.
Typical goon POS rabble. We care about K/D ratios, you seem to care awfully lot about POS kills.

I was referring to your recent gloating about fleet fight where you claimed 4 BOB BS down and few goon frigs being only losses.
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Reply #1071 on: August 14, 2007, 05:56:07 PM

Oh yeah, from now on I'll be sure to add links to Bob's killboard, because in pos warfare Bob's inflated, pet-free k/d ratio really matters to us a lot.  Almost as much as it did when LV and -V- maintained even better k/d ratios.
Typical goon POS rabble. We care about K/D ratios, you seem to care awfully lot about POS kills.

I was referring to your recent gloating about fleet fight where you claimed 4 BOB BS down and few goon frigs being only losses.

It probably takes around 40 BS kills to equal the cost of one Deathstar. I don't think you can really say that POSs don't count. The problem is how they accomplish their kills/saves. They use something even more "unbalanced" than the untouchable death machines they cried about just a few months ago. The invulnerable lag monster.
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Reply #1072 on: August 14, 2007, 08:32:53 PM

Late update to my previous note: Following the operation to save 2 AAA POS's, news was received than an ISS Wyvern class Mothership was about. Count Tasessine's brought his MS aginast an IAC gang in 49-U(?) and was engaged. Unfortunately it had not considered for IAC (mabye AAA too?) reinforcements quickly arriving. An MC Nynx class Mothership also arrived.

The MC MS left (escaping bubbles again!). 2 Carriers also escaped.  The Count lost his MS as did 3 other carriers and a lot of suppot ships. IAAAAC held the field.

I wounder how long ISS will keep helping MCFIX after losses such as this.

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Reply #1073 on: August 14, 2007, 09:27:23 PM

I think pos's are a bigger deal than their material costs.  Due to their effects on sov I suspect leaders on either side would trade a pos's worth of ships to kill an enemy pos and be allowed to put up their own in it's place.
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Reply #1074 on: August 14, 2007, 11:26:50 PM

I agree that the material cost of a POS can outweigh its material cost in ISK compared to ships. I think that in the case of motherships or titans lost that the material cost has a serious effect. While losing some batteships to save or destroy a POS might be seem like a good deal, losing a mothership is an entirely different ballpark. I doubt that all of the FIX POS in that system equaled the cost of that mothership. So while losing ships to save a POS might be in general a good idea, when it comes to supercapitals it is a losing proposition in my mind.

Edit: Change my argument after rereading the previous post.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 12:23:27 AM by Drogo »
Chenghiz
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Reply #1075 on: August 14, 2007, 11:51:00 PM

The invulnerable lag monster.

How does this not cut both ways?
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Reply #1076 on: August 15, 2007, 01:19:27 AM

If the Bob+pets side had only lost one mothership last night, then it would have been a very good night compared to losing two and having one of them handed over by its (ex-EVOL) pilot to IAC...  That means the balance shifts by three motherships to us in a night.

On the upside for the oppressed Bobbits, Tyraxx will lose it soloing Tri or something.

I notice that Rens911 also took down a carrier, as befits the New Law in Empire.  All in all, though, it's turning out to be rather a good week after all!

The invulnerable lag monster.

How does this not cut both ways?

LC, like a lot of Bob pilots, hasn't logged in recently, and has no clue what fleet fights are like, who has been lagged out etc.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 01:25:15 AM by Endie »

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JoeTF
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Reply #1077 on: August 15, 2007, 03:31:25 AM

The invulnerable lag monster.

How does this not cut both ways?

Simple - BoB uses tactics (think hit& run, flank attacks and such) and RSF rely on blobbing the hell of everyone.
With a 10min lag any organized/synced maneuvers are borderline impossible, while RSF's random mob work just as well.

If you're under fire, your faction/t2 fit can give few more minutes get out of the bubble and have tacklers taken out by anti-support. When the lag is such it takes more than those one-two minutes to issue a single command (or see what's going on, or that matter), you could as well go in in t1 fitted raven. or a frigate.   
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #1078 on: August 15, 2007, 03:55:55 AM

The invulnerable lag monster.

How does this not cut both ways?

Simple - BoB uses tactics (think hit& run, flank attacks and such) and RSF rely on blobbing the hell of everyone.
With a 10min lag any organized/synced maneuvers are borderline impossible, while RSF's random mob work just as well.

If you're under fire, your faction/t2 fit can give few more minutes get out of the bubble and have tacklers taken out by anti-support. When the lag is such it takes more than those one-two minutes to issue a single command (or see what's going on, or that matter), you could as well go in in t1 fitted raven. or a frigate.   

I was thinking to myself, he can't possibly believe this, but then I remembered, hey it's the internet.

Can you define the exact number of ships that make a "blob"?  Is it 50, 100, 150, 200?  I'm assuming there's a set BoB policy that prevents their fleets reaching a "blob" in size because that would clearly be bad and result in the loss of e-honour points or something.
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Reply #1079 on: August 15, 2007, 06:15:20 AM

Blob = number of ships BoB fields + 1

Over and out.
JoeTF
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Reply #1080 on: August 15, 2007, 07:58:00 AM

Blob is a lot of ships, in this context a lot more than opposing force has. Alternatively, bringing way more people that are necessary to achieve your goals.
If you see two enemies and bring a fleet of 50 to kill them, you're clearly blobbing them. When enemy has 100 and you bring 250, clear act of blobbage.

Besides, what's the point - I wrote that excessive lag nullifies advantages from tactics and your answer is "wtf is blob?"

Blob = number of ships BoB fields + 1
You know, that comment was just retarded.


And since were derailing, big lol @ "goon culture" of fucking up big time and pretending it's good laugh, shit and giggles. When you win an engagement we see a lot of chest beating, but when you lose it's never "we fucked up, see if I can do better" but instead every goonie goes into "lol internetspaceships".
cmlancas
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Reply #1081 on: August 15, 2007, 08:00:36 AM

I don't think Endie does that at all. Actually, I think he readily accepted that they sucked in their last mission and got their asses kicked.

Also, Nevermore's comment was a joke -- don't take your games so seriously sir!

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Reply #1082 on: August 15, 2007, 08:09:28 AM

"Fucking Indians keep zerging us!  GET SOME SKILL YOU FUCKING NEWBS!"  --  Last words of General Custer

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Reply #1083 on: August 15, 2007, 08:31:14 AM

Blob is a lot of ships, in this context a lot more than opposing force has. Alternatively, bringing way more people that are necessary to achieve your goals.
If you see two enemies and bring a fleet of 50 to kill them, you're clearly blobbing them. When enemy has 100 and you bring 250, clear act of blobbage.

Besides, what's the point - I wrote that excessive lag nullifies advantages from tactics and your answer is "wtf is blob?"


You mean two different things then. 

1. For want of a better phrase, you believe it's not "a fair fight" if one side outnumbers the other.

2. You also believe lag gives an advantage that combats BoB's tactics and more expensive ships and the reason RSF tries to bring as many ships as possible is to create lag.

My opinion on 1 is that's complete crap.  BoB is an organisation that only recruits from the highest SP characters and tries to present an image of flying the most expensive ships.  Therefore a fight with BoB on equal numbers will never be fair due to the more advanced ships and higher sp characters involved in a BoB fleet.  I have no problem with that, as I believe the whole concept of a fair fight in a war is stupid, however it's your propaganda that is whining about "fair fights" all the time when anyone with any sense sees that it's not possible to enforce numbers due to the current way POS warfare works.

Now moving on to point 2.

My opinion on 2 is that's complete crap.  The most recent battle on 0OY had 200 or so BoB camping the system with masses of fighters deployed, same as with FT when our side lost 40-50 capitals, the lag benefited BoB and BoB won.  Again I have no problem with BoB's tactics, it's the logical way to fight.  However I'd state the reason everyone (BoB and RSF) generally bring as many ships as possible to an engagement is not some complex mystery that needs to be solved, it's simple, to try and destroy the other fleet/gain control of the system.  The fact is the defending fleet has the advantage if they have the grid loaded and fighters deployed and that fact applies equally to both sides.
Nevermore
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4740


Reply #1084 on: August 15, 2007, 08:47:46 AM

You know, that comment was just retarded.

I agree, crying about blobs is retarded.

Over and out.
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