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Author Topic: War  (Read 1923068 times)
ajax34i
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Reply #525 on: April 20, 2007, 12:23:17 PM

Can we cut the BoD shit, please? This is neither Eve-O nor SA. It's a pointlessly inflammatory pejorative, and I've already yelled at JoeTF for doing the same thing from the other perspective.

This is a little EVE-O though:  every now and then someone bothers to explain what all the acronyms mean, but 2 posts after everybody goes right back to using them extensively, to the point where an outsider has absolutely no clue WTF anyone is talking about.  So, pretty much, this thread is by those involved in the war, FOR those involved in the war, and thus a little EVE-O'ish.
Simond
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Reply #526 on: April 20, 2007, 12:48:56 PM

Is that James315?  He's been doing that forever, he got one of my covops during the ASCN war up in the A2 pipe.  It's a gimmick, one that works well as a surprise but once you know to expect it whenever you see him in local it's pretty easy to avoid.

--Dave
Want a real laugh? Look up James315 on the BoB killboard.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Yoru
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Reply #527 on: April 20, 2007, 01:31:15 PM

Can we cut the BoD shit, please? This is neither Eve-O nor SA. It's a pointlessly inflammatory pejorative, and I've already yelled at JoeTF for doing the same thing from the other perspective.

This is a little EVE-O though:  every now and then someone bothers to explain what all the acronyms mean, but 2 posts after everybody goes right back to using them extensively, to the point where an outsider has absolutely no clue WTF anyone is talking about.  So, pretty much, this thread is by those involved in the war, FOR those involved in the war, and thus a little EVE-O'ish.

I'm not talking about the acronyms. I mean, this forum is generally for Eve enthusiasts, you don't expect us to type out everything all the time. I suppose I could create a sticky thread where people can post acronyms and such for general explanation.

What I'm referring to is the tone of post, which is largely meant to inflame members of the opposing side and has no real value in discussing the war itself. I'm trying to avoid having the thread derail into an Eve-O "LOL BoB vs RAGOON" flamewar.

/Moderation Derail
tmp
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Reply #528 on: April 20, 2007, 04:09:20 PM

Want a real laugh? Look up James315 on the BoB killboard.

I've counted 13 or so BoB kills in that video (rest was other alliances or newbie corp shuttles), BoB killboard lists 17 ship kills by the guy plus some pods.

Where's the funny part?
Simond
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Reply #529 on: April 21, 2007, 04:41:37 AM

Want a real laugh? Look up James315 on the BoB killboard.

I've counted 13 or so BoB kills in that video (rest was other alliances or newbie corp shuttles), BoB killboard lists 17 ship kills by the guy plus some pods.

Where's the funny part?
Try matching the names up. ;)

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
tmp
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Reply #530 on: April 21, 2007, 10:04:08 AM

Try matching the names up. ;)

Ah I see. I tried but the video is pretty poor quality, I could tell the corp tickers in damage message boxes but names are pretty unredable to me. Sucky EVE font isn't helping either.

edit: in other news it sounds like D2 put up successful fight today in their area. According to report on SHC forums a battle against MC/YW resulted in D2 killing 5 carriers or so, with no capital ship losses on D2 side.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 10:08:04 AM by tmp »
Endie
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Reply #531 on: April 21, 2007, 04:21:24 PM

I'm not talking about the acronyms. I mean, this forum is generally for Eve enthusiasts, you don't expect us to type out everything all the time. I suppose I could create a sticky thread where people can post acronyms and such for general explanation.

What I'm referring to is the tone of post, which is largely meant to inflame members of the opposing side and has no real value in discussing the war itself. I'm trying to avoid having the thread derail into an Eve-O "LOL BoB vs RAGOON" flamewar.

No it wasn't intended to inflame anyone.  Frankly, it just wasn't inflammatory at all.  If you were complaining about the term "war on CCP" then that's what a lot of people are pursuing.  Not all, but some.  The privateers have done the same thing in a funnier way.  Otherwise, I don't get why you'd thing so.  Sir Molle did complain, and did pull strings to get the clip banned and the poster warned.  Fair enough: if you know CCP staff as well as he does - God knows he's played with some of them often enough - you get some useful email addresses.  But I really don't see how mentioning that he got it banned - factissimo - is intended as inflammatory.  The video is funny.  the guy is hardly changing the face of Eve, but it's a laugh.

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tmp
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Reply #532 on: April 21, 2007, 07:47:05 PM

Sir Molle did complain, and did pull strings to get the clip banned and the poster warned.

Actually did he? As in, was it quoted somewhere?

I ask because eve-search doesn't list any Sir Molle's posts made after very early April on EVE-O forums, and the original complaint as posted by the movie maker on SA forum just said "some BoB member complained to GM and my video got pulled" which immediately became fact. Now it's not just some BoB member but Sir Molle himself, so curious if there's some insight into forum mod mails, or it's simply conjecture.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #533 on: April 21, 2007, 09:12:44 PM

Wondering if there actually might be something to the "BoD" stuff, I went to Kugutsmen's site and checked out the evidence.  What I found was somewhat...underwhelming.  Yeah, unsurprisingly there were some CCP employees and ISD employees in BoB.  A few of those (from clear back in Beta) were known to the BoB leadership, or at least some of them.  One of them, T20, abused his position in ways not connected to BoB, was forced to retire from the game, and left his BPO's with his corp (not an unheard of thing when someone is leaving or taking a long hiatus).  There was *nothing* in all of that material that showed BoB leaders or members knowingly and willingly participated in any malfeasance.

I might add, the Kugutsmen poster base isn't what I would call the sharpest set of tools in the shed, even for tin-foil-hat conspiracy spinners they're pretty sloppy.  As near as I can tell, the chain of evidence against BoB runs like this:

1) Kugutsmen goes through tens of thousands of posts and PM's hacked from the BoB forum servers.

2) He strings together a mildly incriminating set of same with dozens of barely related and mostly irrelevant messages to create a huge thread of quoted material, which he summarizes, sloppily and in ways that draw conclusions not really warranted by the evidence (often pointing to the *lack* of evidence as proof that BoB was covering something up).

3) His readers take the summaries, add supposition, interpretation, and just plain wacked out nonsense, and draw unfounded conclusions.  Most of them apparently don't read anything *but* the summaries.

4) These conclusions are then taken to other boards, mostly of BoB enemies, and reported as fact, the Kugutsmen threads pointed to as proof.  The readers, being both predisposed to believe bad things about BoB *and* apparently too lazy to check the source material, accept them as such.  Then they start adding their own impossible to verify or debunk fantasies to the body of myth.

--Dave

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Yoru
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Reply #534 on: April 21, 2007, 11:37:26 PM

I'm not talking about the acronyms. I mean, this forum is generally for Eve enthusiasts, you don't expect us to type out everything all the time. I suppose I could create a sticky thread where people can post acronyms and such for general explanation.

What I'm referring to is the tone of post, which is largely meant to inflame members of the opposing side and has no real value in discussing the war itself. I'm trying to avoid having the thread derail into an Eve-O "LOL BoB vs RAGOON" flamewar.

No it wasn't intended to inflame anyone.  Frankly, it just wasn't inflammatory at all.  If you were complaining about the term "war on CCP" then that's what a lot of people are pursuing.  Not all, but some.  The privateers have done the same thing in a funnier way.  Otherwise, I don't get why you'd thing so.  Sir Molle did complain, and did pull strings to get the clip banned and the poster warned.  Fair enough: if you know CCP staff as well as he does - God knows he's played with some of them often enough - you get some useful email addresses.  But I really don't see how mentioning that he got it banned - factissimo - is intended as inflammatory.  The video is funny.  the guy is hardly changing the face of Eve, but it's a laugh.

Heh. I read "war on CCP" as a coy way of referring to the BoB/everyone else war, particularly since recent posts noted that the war was turning in BoB's favor and you mentioned people getting depressed.

And it doesn't really take "pulling strings" to get that video banned - it has material in it that's been banned from Eve-O (T20 joke, as noted above). Granted, he probably complained, in part at least, because it does portray his alliance in a poor light. However, had anyone else petitioned it, I'm betting it would've been banned just the same. Also, what tmp posted.

From what I've made of the Kugu threads and conversations with CCP folks, there's a tiny kernel of truth to the accusations of malfeasance - T20 did leave BPOs with BoB after being forced to retire his BoB character. Whether the BPOs are legit or not, I don't know - I'm disposed to saying they're not, given some of Magnus' comments, but I don't actually know. Whether he rejoined under another name, I don't know. CCP did a pretty piss-poor PR job of handling it, as most of the senior staff was on vacation at the time it occurred (mid-06), but there were large segments of the population already disposed to disliking BoB - Kugu was just a spark in the power-room at the right time when he dredged it all up.
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Reply #535 on: April 22, 2007, 12:58:09 AM

Wondering if there actually might be something to the "BoD" stuff, I went to Kugutsmen's site and checked out the evidence.  What I found was somewhat...underwhelming.

He gave them BPO's that were illegal

BoB knew he was in CCP (and he's not some part time GM mind you)

He was in charge of their capl fleet, while BoB was abusing rules (such as sharing characters, and using passive targeters through shields)

The head of CCP events team was in BoB, BoB knew it, and he gave them warning and special events for BoB

There is no way to know how much...information...CCP gave BoB not released to other players, but the stench is thick of it.


Anyone one of these charges is a hanging offence. Any Jury of Eve Players would (and did) demand a hanging. If you go by CCP's words, they *would* have hung him if someone...senior...had known about it at the time. And if any of these things were to happen now, it *would* mean an instant hanging, that's what CCP's publicly said.


I wounder how many CCP Devs Privateers ganked in the last 3 months. Someone probably lost a Freighter to them or something.

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Reply #536 on: April 22, 2007, 01:17:29 AM

Heh. I read "war on CCP" as a coy way of referring to the BoB/everyone else war, particularly since recent posts noted that the war was turning in BoB's favor and you mentioned people getting depressed.

Nah, I just thought the war on CCP was a funny euphemism.  If it's misjudged, my bad.  And I thought the people getting depressed bit was better than making a post saying everything was great for the coalitions and that Bob was dead and just didn't know it yet...

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Simond
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Reply #537 on: April 22, 2007, 02:34:15 AM

One of them, T20, abused his position in ways not connected to BoB...
What

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tkinnun0
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Reply #538 on: April 22, 2007, 02:41:48 AM

Wondering if there actually might be something to the "BoD" stuff, I went to Kugutsmen's site and checked out the evidence.

Better late than never, huh?  rolleyes
tmp
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Reply #539 on: April 22, 2007, 04:30:58 AM

Whether the BPOs are legit or not, I don't know - I'm disposed to saying they're not, given some of Magnus' comments, but I don't actually know.

I can't absolutely swear at this point, but I think CCP confirmed in one of their dev blogs these BPOs were actually, like alleged, obtained through manipulation of game database. It could've been that "apology blog" posted by t20 now that I think of it. It was probably quoted in some detail in the other thread here, the one focused on the whole dev drama thing.
Fordel
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Reply #540 on: April 22, 2007, 05:47:15 PM

Yea it was definitely in a Dev blog, that is why there was (is) so much ongoing drama about it. It went from the realm of tinfoil asshattery into actual fact.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Faust
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Reply #541 on: April 22, 2007, 10:48:12 PM

Wondering if there actually might be something to the "BoD" stuff, I went to Kugutsmen's site and checked out the evidence.  What I found was somewhat...underwhelming. 
...
I might add, the Kugutsmen poster base isn't what I would call the sharpest set of tools in the shed, even for tin-foil-hat conspiracy spinners they're pretty sloppy.  As near as I can tell, the chain of evidence against BoB runs like this:
...

3) His readers take the summaries, add supposition, interpretation, and just plain wacked out nonsense, and draw unfounded conclusions.  Most of them apparently don't read anything *but* the summaries.

4) These conclusions are then taken to other boards... and reported as fact, the Kugutsmen threads pointed to as proof.  The readers, being both predisposed to believe bad things about BoB *and* apparently too lazy to check the source material, accept them as such.

--Dave

Thanks for the update.  As I am predisposed to believe good things about BoB *and* too lazy to check the source material; I haven't read anything but your summaries and I accept them as fact.

Kin Rha
MahrinSkel
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Reply #542 on: April 23, 2007, 12:40:18 AM

I believe I've just been pwned. shocked

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Reply #543 on: April 23, 2007, 01:59:16 AM

So in the last 3 days or so,

Goonfleet killed and looted a RISE freighter carrying 6 billion's worth of stuff. GS got about 1 billion in loot. RISE is probably going to have towers running out of fuel, as about 3bil was reported to be POS fuel.

D2 killed 4 YouWhat carriers and a MC Dread and Carrier. The YW carriers were using named T1 gear! The MC carrier dropped another billion or worth of stuff allegedly. MC Mothership jumped out when it was in some danger of getting killed. A clearcut victory for D2.

The D2 side of the spilt that left, the one who took the Titan, are apparently going to become low sec pirates. With a Titan.

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Reply #544 on: April 23, 2007, 06:16:46 AM

The D2 side of the spilt that left, the one who took the Titan, are apparently going to become low sec pirates. With a Titan.
And if that doesn't get Titans nerfed, nothing will.
Random, tangential question: Can cynos be opened inside deadspace?

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
tmp
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Reply #545 on: April 23, 2007, 06:24:32 AM

And if that doesn't get Titans nerfed, nothing will.

Miz Cenuj(sp?) has been ganking people with mothership in low sec space for months now, there was numerous cries about that on the official forum. There's also at least one another group doing the same in 0.0 space, I think they're called Establishment.

It didn't get nerfed much cheaper motherships even though they are just as invincible in low sec, it won't get the titan nerfed either. Low sec pirates rarely get to fight enough ships at once to make DD anything but pointless money sink anyway.
Fordel
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Reply #546 on: April 23, 2007, 12:54:34 PM

Maybe they intend to live out of the Titan, That is mostly what the Establishment does with there mothership is my understanding. Lets them take anything not liquid with them where ever they may go.

Which is what these ships SHOULD be about, not solo pwn-mobiles but mobile stations/POS's.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Simond
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Reply #547 on: May 01, 2007, 02:33:25 AM

Thought for the day: Warping into your own gate-bubble when there's a hostile titan already aligned on that gate with a DD ready to go = Bad Idea.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Vedi
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Reply #548 on: May 01, 2007, 05:42:07 AM

Thought for the day: Warping into your own gate-bubble when there's a hostile titan already aligned on that gate with a DD ready to go = Bad Idea.

Sounds like one them there expensive lessons.

What's up where now, by the way? We want our status reports!
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Reply #549 on: May 01, 2007, 01:02:46 PM

Thought for the day: Warping into your own gate-bubble when there's a hostile titan already aligned on that gate with a DD ready to go = Bad Idea.

Sounds like one them there expensive lessons.

What's up where now, by the way? We want our status reports!

That's pretty much all I've heard about. Lots of anecdotal crap that doesn't mean jack, no station captures or losses. Stalemate.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #550 on: May 01, 2007, 01:49:27 PM

Yeah, a whole bunch of nothing much.  Low-grade hostilities all over the place, some inconclusive back and forth in the northwest and southeast with lots of associated kills.  Other than the race between Evil Thug and Orange Species to see who can be the first to get so aggressive as to lose a Titan in combat, nothing worth talking about.

--Dave

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Simond
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Reply #551 on: May 02, 2007, 02:42:14 AM

Yup, both sides have titans and are almost certainly building more - which means neither side want to commit their fleets (titans make non-capital ships explode, capital ships without a non-capital ship escort are vulnerable, therefore nobody risks anything), and it'll only get worse as more titans get built.

Awesome game design. rolleyes

Fixes required right now:
* Cap rechargers need stacking penalties (someone figured out that an apoc fit in the same way as an avatar regens cap from empty to full in 3 seconds...that's just crying out for someone to abuse it with some sort of insane tank fit. Preferable right outside the Jita undock).
* Remote DD removed or crippled
* Assigned fighters need to be nerfed a little.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
LC
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Reply #552 on: May 08, 2007, 02:39:16 AM

Yup, both sides have titans and are almost certainly building more - which means neither side want to commit their fleets (titans make non-capital ships explode, capital ships without a non-capital ship escort are vulnerable, therefore nobody risks anything), and it'll only get worse as more titans get built.

I would love to see a GoonSwarm titan fitted with T1/Civilian mods.
Krakrok
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Reply #553 on: May 08, 2007, 10:19:11 PM


Rumor I heard was BoB using titans to knock ships out of POSes. 'Titan Bowling'. Could have been a joke though.
Ratadm
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Reply #554 on: May 09, 2007, 12:12:37 AM

Pretty sure that's true.  I've seen vids of them doing it.
Yoru
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Reply #555 on: May 09, 2007, 12:20:01 AM


Rumor I heard was BoB using titans to knock ships out of POSes. 'Titan Bowling'. Could have been a joke though.

It's true. They've used motherships too. Opinions from the GMs seem to vary as to whether it's an exploit or not.
Wolf
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Reply #556 on: May 09, 2007, 12:46:44 AM

Creative use of game mechanics?  rolleyes

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Fordel
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Reply #557 on: May 09, 2007, 12:49:40 AM

Not that I'm terribly surprised that GM's are seemingly ineffective, but which part of using super caps massive size to circumvent POS shields could not be considered an exploit?


It seems like a text book example of an exploit.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Simond
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Reply #558 on: May 09, 2007, 01:57:32 AM

Oh, I don't know - CCP's stance is pretty clear:
When someone else does it to BoB, it's an exploit and people get warned.
When BoB does it to someone else, it's a creative use of game mechanics and people get told to suck it up.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Yoru
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Reply #559 on: May 09, 2007, 11:02:49 AM

Oh, I don't know - CCP's stance is pretty clear:
When someone else does it to BoB, it's an exploit and people get warned.
When BoB does it to someone else, it's a creative use of game mechanics and people get told to suck it up.

Not quite. There were a handful of incidents in the C3 system, I believe, where some BoB mothership pilots got told to knock it off after doing it to a GF or KOS POS. The responses have varied between GMs, from what I've read, with the solution being to escalate the petition.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 05:18:18 PM by Yoru »
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