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Author Topic: War  (Read 1923025 times)
Yoru
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Reply #350 on: March 21, 2007, 10:21:37 AM

Uhm, DD kills every support in the grid, so using is requires a lot of skill, unless it's your own fleet you want to burn. Besides, to my best knowledge they didn't use much DDing during the whole op.

Sabababawha? Skill?

No, not really. Warp in a cheap frigate (BoB and pretty much everyone else use Probes) with a cyno gen, pop a cyno, yell over teamsqueak, DD goes off. It's easy enough to scanprobe out the enemy support fleet in a covops if they're not already at a POI - takes about 2 minutes with decent skills. Cynofrig warps to covops, covops warps out while cynofrig is in warp, see above.

The DDs have been used primarily to decimate gatecamps, station camps and the occasional support/sniping BS fleet, from what I hear. The losses inflicted are rather difficult to fully replace in under 20 minutes.

What the DD will do is force the coalition to dramatically shift tactics and find some way to either evade, bait or tank double DDs. If BoB gets 3 titans, it's going to become very difficult on the coalition to make uncoordinated advances. What they'll need to do in that case is focus far more on eliminating BoB vassals and allies while keeping the main fleets tangled up in large engagements elsewhere.

Fortunately, the coalition has the multi-timezone advantage and can thus keep making BoB stay up late or get up early - particularly the Russians. Goonswarm can continually throw meat into the BoB-grinder to keep them occupied, but in the meantime, Evil Thug and friends are free to wreak havoc on the support infrastructure behind enemy lines - taking out T2 production chains and such.

We all knew it wasn't going to be a fast war.
Furiously
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Reply #351 on: March 21, 2007, 12:31:59 PM

We all knew it wasn't going to be a fast war.

No - that's what we all hoped for.... :)

tmp
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Reply #352 on: March 21, 2007, 03:01:41 PM

Off-hour raids are not a sign of good pvp and are not a good sign for BoB.

You don't get to choose hours when you are attacking enemy POSes, the time of final fight is up to the defender. So it's at best sign of defender's (in)competence.
Slayerik
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Reply #353 on: March 22, 2007, 07:36:03 AM

Off-hour raids are not a sign of good pvp and are not a good sign for BoB.

You don't get to choose hours when you are attacking enemy POSes, the time of final fight is up to the defender. So it's at best sign of defender's (in)competence.

The final time is determined by the amount of strontium in the POS. Sure, they could put in 20 hours worth. But that doesn't allow them to decide what time the POS will come out of reinforced unless they know the time they will be attacked in the first place.

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
JoeTF
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Reply #354 on: March 22, 2007, 09:15:33 AM

Off-hour raids are not a sign of good pvp and are not a good sign for BoB.

You don't get to choose hours when you are attacking enemy POSes, the time of final fight is up to the defender. So it's at best sign of defender's (in)competence.

The final time is determined by the amount of strontium in the POS. Sure, they could put in 20 hours worth. But that doesn't allow them to decide what time the POS will come out of reinforced unless they know the time they will be attacked in the first place.

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.

And besides besides, it was Coalition prime-time:P
Well, at least more goon prime than BOB prime.
Simond
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Reply #355 on: March 22, 2007, 10:13:22 AM

The Goonswarm capital fleet is still in its nascent form at the moment, though (and the tactics that worked against LV won't work against 2+ Titans).

Or the existing Goonswarm tactics, I should say....

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
tmp
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Reply #356 on: March 22, 2007, 10:16:15 AM

The final time is determined by the amount of strontium in the POS. Sure, they could put in 20 hours worth. But that doesn't allow them to decide what time the POS will come out of reinforced unless they know the time they will be attacked in the first place.

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.

Amount of strontium can be adjusted in the time between beginning of attack and the time shield level hits reinforced state, thus giving defender ability to determine time of fight. The recent destruction of MC yard raised some eyebrows for this very reason, unless the yard that came out at DT was the first being attacked, they could've adjusted the timing to more convenient for them.
Simond
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Reply #357 on: March 22, 2007, 10:20:40 AM

The recent destruction of MC yard raised some eyebrows for this very reason, unless the yard that came out at DT was the first being attacked, they could've adjusted the timing to more convenient for them.
Or MC were more happy to lose those shipyards and the mothership cooking inside them rather than whatever was in their other shipyards (which has also been put into reinforced).

Triage, of a sort.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Slayerik
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Reply #358 on: March 22, 2007, 10:22:24 AM

The final time is determined by the amount of strontium in the POS. Sure, they could put in 20 hours worth. But that doesn't allow them to decide what time the POS will come out of reinforced unless they know the time they will be attacked in the first place.

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.

Amount of strontium can be adjusted in the time between beginning of attack and the time shield level hits reinforced state, thus giving defender ability to determine time of fight. The recent destruction of MC yard raised some eyebrows for this very reason, unless the yard that came out at DT was the first being attacked, they could've adjusted the timing to more convenient for them.

Can it be done remotely? Otherwise, its a lot easier said than done. Support should have entrances bubbled since they cant be at the POS for fear of death. A good cap fleet will put a tower into reinforced quickly.

Either way, if someone puts some POS in reinforced during some off hours, there would be no choosing the time.

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
MahrinSkel
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Reply #359 on: March 24, 2007, 02:31:23 PM

Basically, neither side can truely pick a time.
Yes they can, if someone from the POS-owning corp with POS permissions is online.  Plus, you can pre-set things like making sure there are 6-8 hour gaps in your strontium levels, so that as long as the enemy doesn't know precisely what your schedule is, *some* of the POS will be coming out at their worst time. Strontium management is a critical element of defense, you can't control when the enemy will attack, but you can control the timing for the strategically essential Round Two.  Doesn't matter how many times the enemy put a POS *into* reinforced, as long as they never get to follow up and knock it out all they've cost you is strontium.  Trying to stop someone in a covert from getting through the blockade to the POS is an excercise in frustration, I've taken mine past gate-camps of 200 ships with multiple large bubbles.

In theory, the coailition's numbers advantage means they can put together a POS-buster force at any hour.  But in practice, there are only two forces capable of fielding the critical mass, and they have been unable to rely on their allies to pump up the numbers and keep their logistics in order (D2 themselves, and RA/AAA).  And thanks to their diplomatic short-sightedness making sure that every in the BoB camp knew they had to stand and fight, and the steady erosion of their own ranks, they don't have much, if any, of a numbers advantage anymore.

Something you need to keep in mind that BoB has had a "Hardcore only" recruitment policy for years, it's not the hardship for them to pull an alarm clock raid as it is for a less militant alliance like D2/TCF/IAC/IRON/....basically everyone but AAA and RA.  And they aren't as weak in any particular TZ as the typical alliance either, they have a sizable contingent of Aussies/Kiwis, and MC is *very* heavy on the europeans.

In the end, it comes down to morale and momentum.  You win wars in Eve by making it not fun to be the enemy, and the coalition isn't having much fun from their war anymore.  The northern coalition's assault has fizzled, Fountain was a complete failure and Querious is a stalemate.  D2 is supporting IRON and company with a few dreads but damned few smaller ships, when the enemy musters less than 70 FIX fights them and generally gives as good as we get, when they roll with more than 100 MC and BoB join the party and they get hammered, and in between we just bunker up and wait for them to go away.  FIX is probably the hardest alliance to try and break via a siege, both because of the easy logistics offered by the geometry of ED-, and because we've been through that particular trial so often everyone who can't handle it left long ago.

This has freed up BoB and MC to go on the offensive, and they're taking full advantage.  Northern industrial POS are getting taken down almost every day, FAT is about to fall, and the RedSwarm advance has been stopped.  Agressive anti-pod scanning has made AAA and RA leave their good implants at home (and the coming patch that will stop people from logging out to escape bubbles will finish off the days of 3B isk clones), which has cut a lot of their military advantage and they're getting outperformed tactically.  Meanwhile, the turnouts from all the second and third tier alliances in both coalitions are in the toilet, both because of the fracturing of those coalitions and because many of them are waking up to the fact that this war is going to leave the surviving 2 super-powers even stronger and with no counterweights for them to be played off against, while doing little or nothing for them.

As for BoB and Outbreak, consider it a religious thing.  Both are composed entirely of hard-core PvP'ers, but where Outbreak hates alliance politics and is formed of people who just wanted maximum pew-pew without concerning themselves with diplomatic entanglements, BoB considers diplomacy and politics as "war by other means" and embraces them.  Outbreak doesn't *care* what the coalition thinks of them, pro or con, they're going to keep doing their thing regardless.  Their participation in the MC cap-yard defense had nothing to do with their relationship to BoB, and everything to do with their relationship to MC.  It's entirely possible they'll be fighting against BoB next week, and it will mean precisely as much in terms of their long-term intentions: nothing.  Because their long-term intentions have nothing to do with territorial warfare, and are all about the pew-pew.

--Dave

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Comstar
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Reply #360 on: March 25, 2007, 01:59:20 AM

FAT is about to fall, and the RedSwarm advance has been stopped.

Don't be too proud of the technological terrors you setup in FAT.

Granted apperntly BoB payed for the POS's that just got destroyed, so it didn't cost FIX anything bar a couple of tech 1 indys. I am somewhat surprised BoB didn't come to do anything about it, but I'm guessing the'll be back after downtime to put another 10 deathstars down.

Goons came to help at one point and killed some of the POSs, but the majority were IAC (and I don't think AAA particapted either).


It's going to be a long war.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 03:54:58 AM by Comstar »

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Endie
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Reply #361 on: March 25, 2007, 09:11:16 AM

Yeah, when I saw that news about FAT I couldn't help but think back to Mahrin's post.  Better comedy timing for an extended "we r teh killahz and all your bases will shortly belong to us" spiel would be hard to imagine.

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Yoru
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Reply #362 on: March 25, 2007, 01:27:55 PM

Rumor has it that a carrier was also, uh, unfortunately misplaced by a random FIXian.

It somehow later showed up in the Goonfleet inventory.

The darndest things just seem to happen these days. :)
Vedi
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Reply #363 on: March 25, 2007, 02:23:56 PM

So can any of you Goonie types confirm or deny  this Eve-O thread?

The short of it is that Burn Eden got wind of Goonfleet treachery, stole 3 motherships, some BPOs and podded Remedial.

edit: Fixed link to go to right thread.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 02:40:33 PM by Vedi »
Krakrok
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Reply #364 on: March 25, 2007, 02:30:13 PM


I don't think you linked to the thread you thought you linked to.
Simond
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Reply #365 on: March 25, 2007, 02:43:57 PM

So can any of you Goonie types confirm or deny  this Eve-O thread?

The short of it is that Burn Eden got wind of Goonfleet treachery, stole 3 motherships, some BPOs and podded Remedial.

edit: Fixed link to go to right thread.
It's all true, except for the parts which aren't.

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Sparky
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Reply #366 on: March 25, 2007, 03:15:03 PM

So can any of you Goonie types confirm or deny  this Eve-O thread?

The short of it is that Burn Eden got wind of Goonfleet treachery, stole 3 motherships, some BPOs and podded Remedial.

edit: Fixed link to go to right thread.

It's a joke.  BE have left(on good terms) however, but only because they were sick of having so many blue.  Some goon suggested cooking up a scam story to get Eve-o all a flutter and that's what we threw together.
tmp
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Reply #367 on: March 25, 2007, 06:12:18 PM

Rumor has it that a carrier was also, uh, unfortunately misplaced by a random FIXian.

It somehow later showed up in the Goonfleet inventory.

The darndest things just seem to happen these days. :)
Unless there was more than one that's IAC, not Goonfleet. Tyrrax had it shown on screenshot posted on eve-o forums.
Yoru
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Reply #368 on: March 25, 2007, 06:15:40 PM

Rumor has it that a carrier was also, uh, unfortunately misplaced by a random FIXian.

It somehow later showed up in the Goonfleet inventory.

The darndest things just seem to happen these days. :)
Unless there was more than one that's IAC, not Goonfleet. Tyrrax had it shown on screenshot posted on eve-o forums.

Same difference. Just another small laceration.
tmp
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Reply #369 on: March 25, 2007, 08:29:07 PM

Same difference.

If it's same difference then may as well tell it how it really is, rather than try to take credit for someone else's doing.
Yoru
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Reply #370 on: March 25, 2007, 10:12:16 PM

Same difference.

If it's same difference then may as well tell it how it really is, rather than try to take credit for someone else's doing.

I didn't actually know the guy was IAC. Christ. Remove sand from vagina, please.

Sanitized chatlog:

Quote
X: well i did spend 9 hours of my time helping setup those pos. 4 of them i personally put up
X: also did want my carrier
X: which was stolen by goons saturday
X: bout 2 bill there. its replaceable im not concerned overly. but mildly annoying
X: gg spies
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 10:19:43 PM by Yoru »
Wolf
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Reply #371 on: March 26, 2007, 12:13:22 AM

Just skimming through BoB's killboards to get a feel for what's going on, I saw thisshocked Anyone got infoz? I don't have the time to browse through scrapheap-challenge :(

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Endie
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Reply #372 on: March 26, 2007, 03:41:57 AM

Just skimming through BoB's killboards to get a feel for what's going on, I saw thisshocked Anyone got infoz? I don't have the time to browse through scrapheap-challenge :(

As i understand it, he got jumped by a well-thought-out BoB trap, decided to tank instead of try to escape, and got popped (along with some other ships that tried to help him out.  The post I saw from RA about it said something like "We make mistake.  It no happen again."

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JoeTF
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Reply #373 on: March 26, 2007, 04:35:32 AM

Russkies though they were smart, ambushing RISE forces sieging  their POS, little they knew entire attack was part of a plan to ambush the ambushers :mrgreen:
Moment RA forces engaged, BoB titan opened warp gate and cunning ambush become slaughterhouse. I believe 2 Carriers and one Mothership was downed.
Two days ago 6 D2 dreads were atomized, however that seems happening so frequently those days it's not worth reporting.

On FIX spy scandal:
Uhm, if RAgoon has to use spies to fight against "pet"* few orders of magnitude smaller than them, it says a lot about their fighting skills, or rather lack of thereof:P

On BE:
Birds say Goons hired BE (they're mercs after all) and at this fake drama-bomb is just a smoke screen.


*this one got teeth:P
Simond
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Reply #374 on: March 26, 2007, 08:34:18 AM

On FIX spy scandal:
Uhm, if RAgoon has to use spies to fight against "pet"* few orders of magnitude smaller than them, it says a lot about their fighting skills, or rather lack of thereof:P
Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.
Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

;)

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Comstar
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Reply #375 on: March 26, 2007, 08:41:43 AM

AFIAK, and rembembering Tyraxx is/was a member of the GHSC so anything he says is a lie anyway....Goonswarm Intel Service had nothing to do with the FIX FAT spy, it was a FIX pilot who decided to come over to the good guys side (my guess is was "Hey Tyraxx, I have access too the FIX POS's in FAT, how much will you bid for them?", and Tyraxx paid the ISK needed).

It was cool when I was undocking from FAT to see 3 OHGOD Caldari Dreadnoughts warping out to one of the POS's. The IAC fleet outnumbered the Goonswarm fleet though. I used about 5000 rounds of torpedo's myself and spendt 1/2 the battle AFK, just alt-tabing to rearm more torpedos.

Tyraxx also stole the carrrier I think using the same agent (while he had an IAC lockdown the system while he quickly trained "Carrier 1").

I do not know if the agent was discovered or not, I think he was, but I'm not sure. I'm sure FIX isn't sure either.


I do think it's a pity that many FIX pilots will die for BoB's and T20's mistakes.

Defending the Galaxy, from the Scum of the Universe, with nothing but a flashlight and a tshirt. We need tanks Boo, lots of tanks!
Simond
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Reply #376 on: March 26, 2007, 08:48:30 AM

Speaking of mistakes: The ISS Convoy scheme listed in the EVE-O news - [Img-Ackbar] or genuine stupidity?

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Yoru
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Reply #377 on: March 26, 2007, 11:02:40 AM

I do not know if the agent was discovered or not, I think he was, but I'm not sure. I'm sure FIX isn't sure either.

From what I've read, FIX doesn't know who the spy/spies was/is/were/are. At least, not as of early yesterday, I haven't paid attention since then.

And anyway, the use of spies is just another form of warfare. In fact, it's often a better one since it costs less than fielding ridiculous numbers of capships and can actually turn a profit if the spies are good at quietly funneling assets away.

It's also amusing to see how, even on this neutral board, people aligned with either side, either in fact or in mind, are utterly convinced they're the ones winning.
Slayerik
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Reply #378 on: March 26, 2007, 11:06:43 AM

I'm aligned with the coalition and I don't think we are going to win.

The reason? Its a massive clusterfuck :)

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Yoru
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Reply #379 on: March 26, 2007, 11:09:09 AM

I'm aligned with the coalition and I don't think we are going to win.

The reason? Its a massive clusterfuck :)

Agreed. I think we're just going to have a giant stalemate for a long time. The current target has had its ass against the wall several times before, for extended periods of time, without breaking down into the cascade failure the leadership is expecting.

But that just means more shooty for me. :)
dwindlehop
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Reply #380 on: March 26, 2007, 12:59:12 PM

POS warfare is too inherently stalematey. Maybe the deadlock will be broken with Revelations 2.0, but the devs really haven't given out sufficient information to make that call yet.
Verify
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Reply #381 on: March 27, 2007, 09:40:23 AM

This was too good not to post here:

Quote
Originally Posted by Goons on the way and starting a campaign of shenanigans!
Ok so Malindah kindly passed me this intel today from a source (reliable)

"Goons are being recalled to Agil. Not for any specific op but in general - against FIX. There is Mittani's sticky thread on their forums giving a lot of details about FIX - names of their leaders, officers, known directors and so on. Mittani is telling his goons to scam them, harass and do other... not very nice things He also listed complexes, choke points and other important info about Querious."

Be on the alert for scams and other such crap and stuff like you really shouldnt have to deal with in an on-line game, keep logs too incase it crosses a line!

Do not deal with anyone claiming to be an alt of leadership or anyone else etc etc, basically just take extra care in everything and be ready for it.

Yesterday I was contacted by an alt claiming to belong to Laird about cheap POS's after passing it onto Mal he then claimed to be Breakerjoe's alt.

I will put out a less specific alliance mail to this effect too.

James


---

Phase two it is, then. This one's going to be the hectic part

---

(Ok, here we go.)

What has become of a game that would drive people this low? What has become of honor? Will such people be allowed to complete their goals using such dishonorable and underhanded and downright mean tactics. I pray not.

In the SA war, even in the CODA war, I have never heard of our advarsaries going this low. Again, what has become of honor, even among advarsaries?

EVE is become a game that is very difficult to play these days. Between being very poor in PVP, being cruely ganged upon by the Goons, RL needs, and to top it off hearing about CCP's decision to give suicide gankers the means and rewards to search for big payoff targets in areas meant to be safe (see my rant in the relevant thread in the general forum) makes my sorrow all the more unbearable.

There is not much I can do for my corp or alliance these days, except pray. IMHO, God has delievered FIX many times from the brink since the first SA war. The prayer I posted above 9cg station has been answered. I thank Him for that, and I hope God will answer it now, and defeat those who wish to undermine us so cruelly and thoughtlessly.

It is one thing to fight against BOB and allies because of ideals. (they aren't perfect either, and I don't always like the manner they conduct themselves, regardless of recent allegations), but to go this low...It's just unexcusable.

I hope we can be lifted up, strengthened in resolve, Christ-like in mutual charity, and fight this. Fight with honor, fight with conviction, and make a good accounting of ourselves amd Gpd willing, rout this foe. I hope I could be a little more like that, and the time available to do that, maybe I could. But it's hard...JAKD and FIX has suffered much these past months, some wounds self inflicted, and they have yet to fully heal.

We need to get back on our feet, and stand tall again, even in the face of such darkness.

God save FIX.

Creed

ps...Please forgive this little emotional piece, recent events and reading have brought my spirits down and I needed to vent a bit.

This is from FIX director forums.
Yoru
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Reply #382 on: March 27, 2007, 10:48:07 AM

Holy shit, I actually just fell out of my chair laughing.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #383 on: March 27, 2007, 10:49:17 AM

Are they an RP guild with some sort of futuristic church cult leaning or was he serious about all the God and Jesus coming down to help him in an MMO stuff?
Verify
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Reply #384 on: March 27, 2007, 10:59:52 AM

He is serious.

We will definitely be using that post in our future newbie recruiting drives.
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