f13.net

Vanguard was fail, but not 100% fail.  The classes were creative and the dual targeting system was a step in the right direction.  So... 98% fail.  That's incremental progress for Brad.

Actually it was like 200% fail.

Come on.  There were some great class ideas in that game.  They were just implemented into a shit world with boring as fuck combat mechanics and uninspired dungeon builds. 

767 followers  :awesome_for_real:

767 followers  :awesome_for_real:

I believe that was Vanguard's peak subscriber number  :why_so_serious:

767 followers  :awesome_for_real:

Hotmail? Hotmail?!

Hotmail? Hotmail?!

The good news for those of us who like giving money to MMO developers is that gaming industry legend Brad McQuaid is going to start accepting our money very, very soon.

Hotmail? Hotmail?!

Hotmail? Hotmail?!

I should also add that if you are a younger player & didn't play EQ or VG, but you want a challenging game & not a game that tries to be all things to all players, then you should feel right at home too

This will turn out well.

I Enjoyed the diplomacy system, but I'm sure he had nothing to do with it.

The truly shocking thing is that he actually had a paying job at Sony until August. There really is no justice in the universe.

Bob Slydell: Yeah, we can't actually find a record of him being a current employee here.

Bob Porter: I looked into it more deeply and I found that apparently what happened is that he was laid off five years ago and no one ever told him about it; but through some kind of glitch in the payroll department, he still gets a paycheck.

Bob Slydell: So we just went ahead and fixed the glitch.

Long grueling grinds and difficult corpse recovery for everyone!  I'm sure that's what the current MMOG customers want.

Every MMO I've played in the last 6 years has had some segment of general chat pining for the EQ days.  Every single one.  While I'll accept that most of these people are like the wankers pining for the 'dreadlord days' of UO - i.e. people who weren't actually there - they'll get a segment to at least do box sales and fund this Kickstarter.  

After that, so long as it's not a buggy piece of shit (it will be) and fully feature complete at launch (it won't be) I can see it hitting that 150-300k again.  The pendulum is swinging the other way now and it's an underserved market for the jobless and teenaged who only have stories from us untrustworthy 30 and 40 year olds.

Every MMO I've played in the last 6 years has had some segment of general chat pining for the EQ days.  Every single one.  While I'll accept that most of these people are like the wankers pining for the 'dreadlord days' of UO - i.e. people who weren't actually there - they'll get a segment to at least do box sales and fund this Kickstarter.   

After that, so long as it's not a buggy piece of shit (it will be) and fully feature complete at launch (it won't be) I can see it hitting that 150-300k again.  The pendulum is swinging the other way now and it's an underserved market for the jobless and teenaged who only have stories from us untrustworthy 30 and 40 year olds.

I can't believe that he's going to get enough useful questions to form a proper 2+ minute intro video. Unless he uses sockpuppets to "send" him the questions.
Also, who's going to "interview" him?

I can't believe that he's going to get enough useful questions to form a proper 2+ minute intro video. Unless he uses sockpuppets to "send" him the questions.
Also, who's going to "interview" him?

I love that this isn't a 20 page thread that will probably page 2 and therefore die in a week. Between this and there being no Shroud thread (on purpose), I feel like some of the more ridiculous milestones in the past are finally behind us.

Originally Posted by Convo  View Post
[Brad- will you be talking about your past in regard to VG and what you've learned in the KS? That seems to be a point of contention for a lot of folks.]

If I need to, yes. I really don't want to dwell on the past -- it's time to be forward thinking and to get excited about the future. That said, you guys need to know that we've learned from our mistakes so some discussion may be appropriate. If we aren't honest and we don't learn from the past, then the past was simply a failure and a defeat. I refuse to look at it that way and we won't be defeated by the mistakes of the past, because we are going to learn from them and do a better job this time. I've learned so much, especially about myself, because of both my successes and my failures.

For me it all came in a frustrating sequence. 9 times out of 10 a person fails, fails, fails, and then succeeds (if he ever succeeds at all). For me it was 1. huge success (half a billion dollars of profit for Sony, etc.), 2. Commercial failure (I say commercial because I still think VG was awesome in many ways and I’m still proud of it)

Anyway, the success first and failure second really jacked with my mind. I became extremely arrogant, thinking whatever I touched would turn into gold. And then when things didn't work out so well on my second try it was really quite a blow to me because I had deluded myself big time. I ended up in a bad place and I never want to be back there again, ever.

But also in learning more about myself over the years, I know this is what I want to do for the rest of my life: make MMOs that I and other gamers want to play. It's just who I am and it's the only thing that professionally makes me happy.

I just don't want to get bogged down in the past too much. If it makes sense to discuss something about the past, then I'll participate. But to be totally upfront and honest, I'm here primarily to promote my new game. It's a blast talking with you all, and I'm here for that as well, but let's spend most of the time here together facing forward. We will need your feedback and opinions in order to insure we make the game you guys want and that I want. It's about community building and being accessible.

Anyways, I hope that makes sense.

-Brad

I really don't want to dwell on the past.

Not sure what kind of mea culpa would satisfy you guys. He said he was deluded by initial success and apologized for being arrogant. All of that rang true to me. I like playing great games, so I hope he makes one. I'm certainly not giving him money in a kickstarter, though!

This game has a target audience -- it is not designed to be a huge all-things-for-all-people game. It needs to be focused, and that focus needs to be making sure we're we're making a game that that audience wants. This game will be smaller, it's feature set specific, and the focus will be on making it fun first for that audience. Feature creep would destroy this game, period.

Interesting...


Anyway, I want to say that I liked his apology.

Anyway, the success first and failure second really jacked with my mind. I became extremely arrogant, thinking whatever I touched would turn into gold.

Without rehashing history, isn't that a standard game development -- heck, project development path? You have a successful project -- especially a really successful one -- and your next you tend to bite off way more than you can chew.

Pantheon Rise of the Fallen - the modern, challenging, group-focused MMO game.

This thread will never die.

Pantheon Rise of the Fallen - the modern, challenging, group-focused MMO game.

This thread will never die.

If you want to see him grovel just for the sake of it, you are probably out of luck.

It seems to me that what he really wants to do is get to work on his "modern, challenging, group-focused MMO game". If he didn't have to address questions about the Vanguard disaster, he wouldn't.

But, if he didn't make that statement (apology, acknowledgement, whatever it is), then people would be after him until he did produce it.

Yes, and it's even possible that in order to achieve your next level, that you'll have to go through a dungeon, perhaps one that wouldn't let you in before, and complete some 'Achievements' in order to advance. Like I've hinted in the past, our Achievement system will be integrated into how you reach your next level, unlike other games where they're just 'cool' to unlock. Unlocking them in Pantheon will have meaning.

Back to the game, Brad just said:


Also, the game will be much more group oriented than Vanguard.

He used a version of my unforgivable word in development.

Meaning(ful).

Pantheon Rise of the Fallen - the modern, challenging, group-focused MMO game.

This thread will never die.

Also, is there a MMO name generator that McQuaid used for this project? I'm struggling to think of a more generic name he could have picked.

He used a version of my unforgivable word in development.

Meaning(ful).

Back to the game, Brad just said:


Also, the game will be much more group oriented than Vanguard.

So in order to actually get to your next level even though you have enough exp, you will have to complete a dungeon instance, probably with strangers.  When one of these strangers fucks up or gets disconnected 80% in, you will have to start over = FUN! damnit.

So in order to actually get to your next level even though you have enough exp, you will have to complete a dungeon instance, probably with strangers.  When one of these strangers fucks up or gets disconnected 80% in, you will have to start over = FUN! damnit.

So what? There are plenty of v solo friendly MMOs out there.

I don't think he really is even interested in catering to the people looking for solo friendly. I get the vibe that Brad is really shooting for just having enough of a loyal group of players looking for this type of niche. I wouldn't be surprised if he was happy with enough players to keep the lights on and keep developing a game that he likes to play. Frankly, I won't be early funding anything he does because of his business track record. However, I don't need any stupid apology or anything from him because I enjoyed the shit out of Vanguard and Everquest 1, and if he manages to execute and deliver on his recent idea pitch I will purchase and or spend money on his game.

No disrespect to the people on this forum, but I am not sure F13 is the place where the proposed game type is going to get a lot of traction.

The idea of having to do a dungeon in order to unlock a character level, as Brad seems to be describing, is not so common in more mainstream MMOs. I personally can't think of another game that does that.

Make one person in the group require the key for the whole group to enter.  Alleviates the average person from needing to do the grind; they can just have their catass friend run with them. 

Doing dungeons in pick-up groups is something you can do in WoW, LotRO, Rift, etc.

The idea of having to do a dungeon in order to unlock a character level, as Brad seems to be describing, is not so common in more mainstream MMOs. I personally can't think of another game that does that.

When he calls the game "group-focused", that means that you'll have to get into a group, pick-up or otherwise, in order to take on more mundane challenges in the game world, i.e. routine leveling. This is the way of such dinosaurs as FFXI, DAoC, and EQ1. Form a group, find a camp, assign a puller, and fight mobs for xp. Any mob that you can tackle by yourself isn't going to give you any xp. And still might kill you anyway. This is the sort of gameplay that Aradune is seeking to resurrect for his challenging, modern game  :awesome_for_real:

Anything's possible but the quote I was interested in was this:

"Yes, and it's even possible that in order to achieve your next level, that you'll have to go through a dungeon, perhaps one that wouldn't let you in before, and complete some 'Achievements' in order to advance. Like I've hinted in the past, our Achievement system will be integrated into how you reach your next level, unlike other games where they're just 'cool' to unlock. Unlocking them in Pantheon will have meaning."

That implies to me that you'll have to go through a dungeon to progress your character on a regular basis, but I took it to mean completing a new dungeon each time and actually moving through it, presumably to defeat some sort of end boss, rather than camping a room.

I don't think the simple fact that the game is "group-focused" has to mean camping either. After all, there are plenty of MMOs already where you can spend most of your time grouped if you wish without having to camp rooms, so I don't see why that should happen in an MMO specifically designed to be group-friendly.

Needs more colon.

Didn't FF11 do something like that, anyway? Called limit breaks or something. I remember it being on my list of interesting ideas in a game I'd never play due to not living in Asia.

If the game works the way a lot of you are suggesting, I think it actually sounds like fun. I'm someone who enjoys doing dungeons with groups, even pick up groups, more than just about any other activity. I know it may be a minority taste but there are a few of us.

One proviso though is that you'd need a way of ensuring it's still possible for lowbies to progress when the game is mature and most players are high level, or if server populations are just generally low.

Star Citizen is probably going to be the best online game in the next decade for sure.

(http://unsubject.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/no-country-for-old-men-wallpaper-hd.jpg?w=300)

tl;dr+irony: and we won't allow a full thread for Shroud of the Avatar.

Which is a shame because Lum works there.

The Kickstarter is happening (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen)

Why should a digital download be a KS tier reward?  How the fuck is he going to distribute the game other than download?  Is he going to try and actually sell the download?

If you're talking about the rewards from the $45 and $100 tiers, that just means that you've paid in advance. When the game is released, you won't have to pay at that time to download it.

Please, gimme picture/gif of a GIGANTIC bowl of popcorns  :grin:

(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/minichart.png) (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/)

Please, gimme picture/gif of a GIGANTIC bowl of popcorns  :grin:

This should suffice

(http://media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/576/157/1157576.gif)

(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/minichart.png) (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/)

Is there even room in the marketplace for this game?  It seems like the high fantasy MMORPG market is saturated at the moment.

The kickstarter is obviously being used to prove consumer interest in the game to secure external investment. If he brings in a couple million, he might get what he wants. Kicktraq predicts around $1m, though, and it is usually spot on.

Comparing a McQuaid's game to Dark Souls is like comparing truffle hunting to polar bears hunting. They are both difficult, just a very different kind of difficult.

Also, Dark Souls was so easy compared to Demon's Souls.

After viewing the KS hype video, I'm convinced that they're trying to make a game so group-based and 1st gen that it'll make FFXI look like WoW.  Considering that FFXI made EQ look like WoW, I'm just going to enjoy the popcorn as this thing drives itself into obscurity and McQuaid takes his KS millions to the Caribbean, never to be heard from again (until he runs out of money again, of course).

Speaking only to original release and the first expansion, EQ wasn't difficult at all. The harsh failure penalties forced players to be heavily risk-averse. It was just extremely time consuming. No real skill or mastery was required, very much unlike dark souls.

Ahahaha.

So, all those tiers except the first one - which gets you nothing - are limited. Those tiers above the first only add up to 972,500 dollars. So he's created a bunch of stretch goals he literally cannot hit without people donating millions of dollars without even a promised reward. His *very first* stretch goal is unreachable with actual rewarded tiers.

 :why_so_serious:

You are correct and this can't be understated.  The game was NEVER hard, it was always time-consuming.  Which is why the catasses with nothing else loved it so much.  Your achievement in game relied heavily on being able to sit at it for hours and hours.  So if you had no responsibilities and could do just that you became a god in the game.

Which is why I'd love to see how many people slam into the brick wall of reality that they're no longer 15-24 and can't maintain a career and family and do that anymore.

This guy (either a troll or a genuine lurker) (http://www.rerolled.org/showthread.php?3460-Pantheon-Rise-of-the-Fallen&p=531980&viewfull=1#post531980) said almost the exact same thing on that rerolled thread, earlier today  :why_so_serious:

Trust me, there are plenty of people on Rerolled that want nothing more to sit at a computer 6-8 hours a day and play this game. There are plenty of people that do that for other games that they discuss over there.

Don't fool yourself to think just because you don't have time that there are plenty of people out there that actually do. These people are actively playing P99 and Vanguard in groups.

Are there enough to get this KS to $800k?

That niche ABSOLUTELY exists. Those people aren't "wrong" simply because they don't agree with everybody in this thread. The question is whether the niche is large enough to support MMO development. Vanguard predicts the answer is no.

This guy (either a troll or a genuine lurker) (http://www.rerolled.org/showthread.php?3460-Pantheon-Rise-of-the-Fallen&p=531980&viewfull=1#post531980) said almost the exact same thing on that rerolled thread, earlier today  :why_so_serious:

Hey! Not a troll, regular lurker here. On both Rerolled (and Fires of Heaven) and F13. Just too shy and lazy to post, plus I'm Italian and English is my second language.  :-P

They aren't wrong for wanting something. They are wrong for trusting Brad McQuaid to do any job bigger than shining shoes for a living.

Hah. Well said!

Going into Nostradamus mode here, my prediction is that the Kickstarter funds at $1.1m, Vision(tm)ary Entertainment goes into dark mode for a couple months using the money to develop a demo while they try to get funding from every studio in existence, then around September 2014 they announce that they are unable to continue development and are really, really sorry. I don't even see Perfect World or ncsoft giving them a chance.

Hey! Not a troll, regular lurker here. On both Rerolled (and Fires of Heaven) and F13. Just too shy and lazy to post, plus I'm Italian and English is my second language.  :-P

I can tell you SOE is watching it closely.

Umm, is Rerolled where the guys from the FoH message board moved after the debacle?

I used to read FoH back in the furor days. What debacle? Hit me up with some juicy gossip!

Ahh, absentee management. Pity, I had hoped for some schadenfreude.

Unless he changes the tiers, 1.1 million dollars would require close to 200k from non-rewarded donors. That seems really unlikely to me.

I'm getting that "The Producers" feeling.

why are the graphics so bad?  thsi game looks like horizons.

Absolutely, right along side L337.

Trust me, there are plenty of people on Rerolled that want nothing more to sit at a computer 6-8 hours a day and play this games.

why are the graphics so bad?  thsi game looks like horizons.

Considering they look almost as menacingly bad as the original EQ ones, I'd say it was deliberate and potentially a good idea.

Considering they look almost as menacingly bad as the original EQ ones, I'd say it was deliberate and potentially a good idea.

This game will have to ship with a hammer.  Punching yourself in the nuts is so 1996. 

This game will have to ship with a hammer.  Punching yourself in the nuts is so 1996. 

This game will have to ship with a hammer.  Punching yourself in the nuts is so 1996. 

The first mmo to embrace remote fleshlight tech is gong to dominate this market.

This game will have to ship with a hammer.  Punching yourself in the nuts is so 1996.

EVE players would like to tell you they aren't a fan of global auction houses either.

EVE players are to gamers as gamers are to non-gamers.  They are the Nerd's nerd, and if CCP is quite content with their niche, so be it.  All I'm saying is that this is the third time that the Vision has been tried to be invoked into this world.  EQ and Vanguard may still be around, but they changed in response to players wanting to play a game like those two, except not as soul-shatteringly obnoxious to play.  So while McQuaid may acknowledge that this new project is going to be niche as fuck, he better be prepared for the day when there aren't enough paying customers to support "The Vision" because they don't agree/believe in it as wholeheartedly as he does.

The funny thing is that I hear Vanguard's actually pretty nice to play these days.

Pantheon Rise of the Fallen will not have a global auction house, because Immersion Breaking.

If your character is in Capital City, and you want some Elf Tails from the far distant province of Windswept Isles, you are going to have to travel there and harvest them yourself, because Hard.

Alternatively, you could pay another player, who harvested them himself, or bought them from another player near the Windswept Isles, and then hauled them back to Capital City. Because Social Interaction.

Ha, who are those 2 idiots in travelers. Why sure I'd love to pay $10 more to be excluded from alpha.

Not having anything is simply a cop out. Disconnected auction houses only work when you have ludicrous travel times like Eve, which themselves aren't acceptable unless you have a ludicrously large world like Eve. Didn't WoW start with auction houses that weren't connected and the reaction was people just gravitated to one and used it exclusively?

Didn't WoW start with auction houses that weren't connected and the reaction was people just gravitated to one and used it exclusively?

Saying that they developed the technology to connect these virtual things does really make it sound awesome.  Someone was probably wearing dark goggles and using a tool that made sparks.

I really don't see them trying to build a robust medieval economic simulation, so there is no need to ditch the global auction.

Not having anything is simply a cop out. Disconnected auction houses only work when you have ludicrous travel times like Eve, which themselves aren't acceptable unless you have a ludicrously large world like Eve. Didn't WoW start with auction houses that weren't connected and the reaction was people just gravitated to one and used it exclusively?

They're design "goal" or idea or whatever the fuck you want to call it, is to create local economies or environments. It's a "hardcore" game so they want travel to have feeling to it. So in order to reach certain auction houses, you have to move around. There is a large subset of people that like that sort of design.

Nothing wrong with that idea.

Without a fully fleshed out economy behind it, all this amounts to a on tax casual players(time staved) by the hardcore(time abundant).  Which is fine for the groin-kicking theme of the game, but lets not pretend it will add character to the game world.

Without a fully fleshed out economy behind it, all this amounts to a on tax casual players(time staved) by the hardcore(time abundant).  Which is fine for the groin-kicking theme of the game, but lets not pretend it will add character to the game world.

Is he wanting us to all hang out in a cave in the commonlands again?  That wasn't fun no matter how nostalgic we get about it.

Is he wanting us to all hang out in a cave in the commonlands again?  That wasn't fun no matter how nostalgic we get about it.

Can't wait for the Alpha to start.  I'll be reporting in live with all the latest news!

So you actually paid $45?

Do report from the Alpha though, if serious. I'm sure it will be interesting.

Reading Rerolled on this topic makes me wish I could virtually strap on a Flamethrower and just kill everything and everyone in that thread.   How did Brad trick that one online community into thinking he was Video Game Jesus.

 :awesome_for_real:

Seriously, you need a gigantic bowl of popcorn to read that thread.
Also amusing is that on ANY other gaming forum the general reaction to this kickstarter was pretty much a universal MEH, while on Rerolled McQuaid is currently revered as MMOs' last hope, and Pantheon is suddenly crucial to saving the industry from impending doom.

Please, the majority of people in that thread are lurkers and star fuckers. The rest of the forum wishes him well but think he's full of shit.

I want to fund this for shit and giggles.

Just like when an old roomate hire two strippers just so he could throw salami and various other deli meat at them for an hour.

Please, the majority of people in that thread are lurkers and star fuckers. The rest of the forum wishes him well but think he's full of shit.

As a star citizen backer it's good to have something to look down upon, thanks Brad.

Apart from the usual suspects of "WoW is Satan Incarnate and ruined everything!!!!111!! Blizzard are teh evil", of course.

(NB: Just to be clear, I'm still talking about Rerolled and not F13.  :drill: )

 :awesome_for_real:

Seriously, you need a gigantic bowl of popcorn to read that thread.
Also amusing is that on ANY other gaming forum the general reaction to this kickstarter was pretty much a universal MEH, while on Rerolled McQuaid is currently revered as MMOs' last hope, and Pantheon is suddenly crucial to saving the industry from impending doom.

Same thing could be said her but in reverse. WOW is great, it's the best, super casual games 4 lyfe!!!

Maybe it's just Paelos and Ingmar.

Personally, I'm sick of diku MMOs.

Everything comes back though. It's like fashion. Platform shoes, or flared pants, or ukuleles. Sandbox, and PvP with permadeath and full body loot? You can say what you want but here's 2 million copies sold (Rust and Day Z) in 2 months. Something that has been considered dead long long time ago is coming back for a second round. So I am pretty sure that applies to everything. There's always the vintage round, the retro round, and the hipster round. Give it time.

He also thinks we agree on stuff. Which is cute.

I can't see house stealing '(teehee) coming back.

because zombie games just won't fucking die.

Is Minecraft a fad?

Is Minecraft a fad?

Awh the two little puppies are getting along.

All the boys in my kid's first grade class play it to one extent or another. I don't get the allure, but they seem to love it.

The easiest way to explain it is you have to be really in to Legos.  My son and his friends (4th grade) are and love the hell out of Minecraft.  He'll spend hours just building huge structures like castles and houses and moats.

I like it for the random exploration and survival mode along with the ability to build my own little encampment but it makes it hard to play with him because our goals are so different.  He'll cheat a bunch of stuff in to our camps that ruin my drive to play.  It's no good to me when you're decked out in diamond gear with 5 enchants and thousands of bricks to build whatever you want.

Sounds like daddy is hardcore and son is casual.  :why_so_serious:

The easiest way to explain it is you have to be really in to Legos.  My son and his friends (4th grade) are and love the hell out of Minecraft.  He'll spend hours just building huge structures like castles and houses and moats.

I like it for the random exploration and survival mode along with the ability to build my own little encampment but it makes it hard to play with him because our goals are so different.  He'll cheat a bunch of stuff in to our camps that ruin my drive to play.  It's no good to me when you're decked out in diamond gear with 5 enchants and thousands of bricks to build whatever you want.

Sometrollone just pledged 10k  :awesome_for_real:

I have noticed this as well with my Nephew.  When I try to explain that the fun part of getting something really cool in a video game is earning it through hard work, he just blank stares at me like I'm an idiot.  In fact, just explaining it here, I *do* feel like an idiot.  Instant gratification is the norm now, not just in video games, but life.  We are outdated.

Hmm, I wonder which pot of money Brad dipped into to make that donation, hookers or blow? :awesome_for_real:

pledge withdrawn  :drill:  :awesome_for_real:

pledge withdrawn  :drill:  :awesome_for_real:

And as a result, trending level has fallen below $900k and reduced the pledge level a whole point from 24% to 23%.  Fucking  :drill:

That Paragon pledge is just astounding.  For $250 you get to work for us unpaid and we reserve the right to cancel you at any time!  Punishment is your reward!  Clean my boots! 

Paragon tier lets you be a QA person but does not give you a free subscription, and another tier doesn't let you be QA but gives you a free (or $1) year subscription and people were agonizingly trying to pick which one was better..

Actually the best part of that is reading the comments (yes I was bored this morning).  Paragon tier lets you be a QA person but does not give you a free subscription, and another tier doesn't let you be QA but gives you a free (or $1) year subscription and people were agonizingly trying to pick which one was better.

Also the "I have computer experience so I would be good to help find issues" is quite amusing.

The current generation of gamer doesn't have the attention span to play original EQ.  Ever watch streams of people playing LoL?  Constantly alt+tabbing, hitting tab to check stats, etc.  Does every gamer under 25 have a debilitating case of ADD?  I'm just going to assume that Darwin will take care of this by killing most of them off as they text and drive.

Every since the infamous UO counselor lawsuit, MMOs can't provide free subscriptions in exchange for anything that could be considered work that would normally be paid. They have zero choice there.

While that's true, it's not a free subscription it's a $1 subscription I think.  Also you are getting the subscription because you are paying for a KS tier, so it's not exactly the same thing.

Regardless, my point is more along the lines of it's extremely funny to watch people having a crisis because they have to choose wheither to pay to be unpaid QA slaves or if they should get a full year subscription for essentially nothing.

While that's true, it's not a free subscription it's a $1 subscription I think.  Also you are getting the subscription because you are paying for a KS tier, so it's not exactly the same thing.

Regardless, my point is more along the lines of it's extremely funny to watch people having a crisis because they have to choose wheither to pay to be unpaid QA slaves or if they should get a full year subscription for essentially nothing.

While that's true, it's not a free subscription it's a $1 subscription I think.  Also you are getting the subscription because you are paying for a KS tier, so it's not exactly the same thing.

New playable class:  The Dark Knight. :oh_i_see:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/725112

Such creativity.

The sub isn't a "payment" for being a QA; you get nothing for your QA job except your name in the credits and a forum title or some silly shit.

I'm torn whether I want this KS to fail so I can get the instant gratification of lulz or have it succeed so I can get some epic lulz at a later date after the fanboys build this up as MMO Jesus only to watch it crash and burn. :grin:

With harm touch even.

Harm touch is the least of it.  That's the exact same class symbol that the Shadowknights of EQ had. 

So how is that other game that had more pledges on its first day comparing? :grin:

I guess a lot of people are looking to fuck with him. First time I've heard of that sort of thing actually making a difference on kickstarter.

Yeah, that symbol is shamefully similar.

It's not that we're rooting for him to fail...

No wait, we totally are.  :awesome_for_real:

I'm not rooting for him to fail. I'm already certain that failure will be the outcome.
I just want to be entertained  :why_so_serious:

The real question is this:  Is Brad McQuaid's name a blessing or a curse to his own project?  Would this be doing better if we didn't know he was apart of it, or is it just a poorly put together kickstarter to begin with? 

I would personally be much more likely to fund the project if he was not involved, but I agree that the public at large really has no clue who he is.

There is only one person on the VR team who writes actual code. Ask ANYone who's ever worked on a small team project or a startup whether your first 11 people should look like this:

Vision guy - B. Mcquaid
Engineer - J. Weimann
Artist (concept) - J. Rochelle
Artist (props) - F. Beleno
Artist (environment) - V. Nguyen
PR guy - B. de la Durantaye
Designer - S. Grant
Designer - T. Garcia
Designer - N. Walling
Designer - C. Lefever
Designer - L. Gullo

Personality defects aside, none of these designers can write useable code for an MMO. I know this because I've worked with most of them, some directly, some indirectly.

Fwiw, it should look more like:

Vision guy/CEO (gets dat money)
Engineer (server and backend)
Engineer (tools and pipeline)
Engineer (gameplay)
Engineer (gameplay/AI)
Artist (concept and props)
Artist (props)
Artist (environment)
Designer (systems and content, must have excellent excel/scripting/writing skills)
Designer (systems and content, must have excellent excel/scripting/writing skills)
PR guy


As for myself, I was one of those unfortunates fired in the parking lot (still employed in MMOs though!), so I have a certain negative reaction to seeing Brad's shenanigans once again in full swing. It looks like this ill-thought-out project probably won't make it, so at least he won't be rewarded again for deceiving folks, but even people who don't know much about game design or MMO production should be able to understand production bottlenecks. With their current team of SOE/Trion castoffs and their egregious lack of technical skills (not a personal attack per se - this is a problem endemic to MMO designers), they would have no chance of producing a playable anything even WITH plenty of funding and a real game design document, which I do not believe they even have.

lol at 5 designers for 1 engineer.   :awesome_for_real:

lol at 5 designers for 1 engineer.   :awesome_for_real:

I don't see this as necessarily a big deal. You don't hire people until you can pay them and actually need them, and neither appears to be currently true.

Yet he managed to hire 5 designers at an extremely pre-production stage.

Nah. Those are a bunch of buddies that got together to do a kickstarter. You think those guys have 401ks? Not a chance.

Also they did pre-production work for the kickstarter pitch. All those concept pics, the unity engine demo, etc. That was a non-trivial amount of work. Nothing compared to making a real game, much less a MMO, but you don't knock that out in an afternoon.

lol at 5 designers for 1 engineer.   :awesome_for_real:

Nah. Those are a bunch of buddies that got together to do a kickstarter. You think those guys have 401ks? Not a chance.

Also they did pre-production work for the kickstarter pitch. All those concept pics, the unity engine demo, etc. That was a non-trivial amount of work. Nothing compared to making a real game, much less a MMO, but you don't knock that out in an afternoon.

Funded (after 3 days)

Funded (after 3 days)

Style: Proficient in most melee weapons and can cast beneficial spells when following a god. Can equip two shields for ultimate defensive abilities.

For a second I thought you meant that Pantheon had gotten funded  :why_so_serious:

I... wut?

Why the fuck would equipping TWO ACTUAL SHIELDS help at all? Is the class just meant to curl up in a fetal shield stance and get whaled on?

Although, to be fair, that's a pretty good description of what tanks in EQ1 were forced to do.

Topical news. SOE announced that Vanguard is closing (https://forums.station.sony.com/vg/index.php?threads%2Fwith-heavy-hearts-we-announce-the-sunset-for-vanguard.71211%2F) just today.

How did that fucking game last for 7 years?  :uhrr:

Topical news. SOE announced that Vanguard is closing (https://forums.station.sony.com/vg/index.php?threads%2Fwith-heavy-hearts-we-announce-the-sunset-for-vanguard.71211%2F) just today.

You should've read the Rift Alpha forum. Nonstop Vanguard (or WoW of course).

To be fair, the tabbing in league is to check your opponents items or lack of items (i.e. knowing when someone placed a ward).

Huh ? How does that work ?

When you press tab, you can see your opponents items and CS score. Sometimes you'll notice that a player has an empty slot between items. Typically that might mean a player just placed a ward somewhere. You can also track their progression.

If they've got an angel waiting in the wings, they're going to make it no matter what. They could stop getting pledges today and still fund, if their sucker has deep enough pockets.

DAOC 2 seemed similarly doomed, and still managed to "make it". Since I still believe that there's an easy scam process behind these projects (meaning you put in your own money to get to the goal in order to avoid losing the real pledges), I am pretty sure it will miraculously ramp up in the last three days and even more miraculously get funded 2 hours before the deadline.

Trending levels are continuing to fall, as the amount of :uhrr: updates they're putting out continues to rise.  I suppose McQuaid's going to break out the "Miracle Update" here this week?

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen and Shroud of the Avatar Collaborate for Crowdfunding

Good morning, Pantheon fans! We have some great news to share today.

Brad has been talking with Richard 'Lord British' Garriott this week of Shroud of the Avatar and the two of them have been brainstorming ways to support both games. The result? Backers of both games can now claim a cross-game cloak in both Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen and Shroud of the Avatar. To qualify for the special Pantheon/SotA cross-game cloak you must be a Pantheon backer at the Fallen's Special tier or higher and the SotA First Responder (Kickstarter) or Adventurer (post-Kickstarter) pledge tier or higher. You'll then be able to wear the cloaks in both games.

You'll then be able to wear the cloaks in both games

AND LO, THE MIRACLE UPDATE HAS ARRIVED!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/734671


 :why_so_serious:

I really, really, REALLY want to give Lum a hard time, because TOTALLY COINCIDENTALLY he 'liked' this mockery of game design on Facebook today.

But hey, he doesn't set corporate policy and I don't pay for his healthcare.

The rerolled thread has been arguing recently over the notion that a simple graphical LFG tool would retard community building. I love this game and it doesn't even exist yet  :why_so_serious:

I think I agree with you -- porting out and calling it a night works for me.

Awesome thread... it twisted and turned a bit, but mostly stayed on track.  Great feedback too, thanks.

The distinctions between LFG tools and just flagging yourself LFG in chat and shouting you're looking for a group?  The latter, old school way is a little annoying to others.  I'm not sure why some of you *really* don't want any UI element that lists people near you who are LFG. 

I shall return to the team the next design meeting and argue against dungeon finders.

People who are against LFG tools really need to be punched in the dick repeatedly.

People who are against LFG tools really need to be punched in the dick repeatedly.

There are situations where you would want your dick to be punched?  :uhrr:

What I would really like is some way to be super powerful and awesome like a level 50 EQ1 character at initial release with cloak of flames, twin ykeshas, etc, and lording that over the noobs. But I don't want to actually receive the pummeling to my dick and balls required to get there. Nor do I want to pay out a lot of money, to eBay or elsewhere. Ideally there would be a very popular MMO with oldschool difficulty like EQ, and I would have unlimited GM powers to endlessly fuck with thousands of people, consequence-free. Make THAT game.

griefing sim?

If you want pvp play Eve literally anything other than a diku mmo..

Supporter ($5.00 monthly)
 As a supporter, you will have access to the all player areas as well as supporter forums, participation in the game Q&A system, the lore forums, and community events with Visionary Realms, Inc. staff, designers, and developers.

 Champion ($14.95 monthly)
 As a Champion, you will have access to supporter areas, plus private champion areas, and be able to join and listen/watch monthly progress meetings. Champions will appear in book of lore and receive the collectors edition of the game of release.

I don't think they're the first game to restrict forum posting to subscribers.

charging a sub to view a fucking alpha forum for a game that is years away from being released, if ever.

Charging a sub that allows you to play a game and also grants you forum access is a little bit different to charging a sub to view a fucking alpha forum for a game that is years away from being released, if ever.

Did you not notice the cherry on-top of that shit sandwich? Not only do you get access to forums, but you also get access to their Q&A system, which means you get to pay for the privilege of finding bugs. So not only do the devs not have to pay for extra Q&A, or deal with the volunteer work issues, they expect people to PAY for this privilege?

That's some fucking evil genius shit there, man.

Q&A system? Nah. It's quality assurance.

That is truly extraordinary. Charging $15/month to access a forum.

Shit, I hope Lowtax doesn't see that.  :why_so_serious:

I assumed Q&A was questions and answers rather than quality assurance.

Yeah that's an important ampersand.

"Brad McQuaid ‏@Aradune 2h
If anyone knows an angel investor or other type of investor who might be interested in investing in VR, please let me know."

 :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:

"Brad McQuaid ‏@Aradune 2h
If anyone knows an angel investor or other type of investor who might be interested in investing in VR, please let me know."

 :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:

I will say that KS is doing for Brad exactly what it was designed to do. It's a great way to test the waters, to see if you have the cache to generate interest before triple mortgaging ones life with a pie-in-sky high cost demo or playable.

I think that someone with some business acumen and/or common sense might have used a KS to test the waters for the level of interest in this project. Such a person would probably have put together a more impressive KS in the first place. Put on display a more detailed vision than just "Like EQ, not like WoW, I'm Aradune, pay me lol."

"Brad McQuaid ‏@Aradune 2h
If anyone knows an angel investor or other type of investor who might be interested in investing in VR, please let me know."

 :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:

I think that someone with some business acumen and/or common sense might have used a KS to test the waters for the level of interest in this project. Such a person would probably have put together a more impressive KS in the first place. Put on display a more detailed vision than just "Like EQ, not like WoW, I'm Aradune, pay me lol."

Well yes. KS is not for people whose success comes from companies buying them out :-) All I was saying that better for him to slap something small together to gauge interest. At least then it's mostly emotional cost rather than a financially catastrophic one.

My point is that, in this specific case, I think the KS was supposed to substitute for angel investment, and that the benefits you're talking about were stumbled upon via a combination of serendipity and laziness.

They clearly put a lot of work into creating assets hoping to make a great pitch.

There was a bunch of concept art, a prototype of the game running in something like unity, their intro video, all the design content they've posted, and all the updates for the past couple of weeks. That's a lot of work. I mean, I thought most of it was crap myself, but someone worked on that stuff.

Really? Well...

That's a whole WEEK of work!

Are you seriously arguing that the amount of content displayed in the Pantheon KS is the result of 4-5 months' worth of passionate design work by ten MMO industry veterans?

Are you seriously arguing that the amount of content displayed in the Pantheon KS is the result of 4-5 months' worth of passionate design work by ten MMO industry veterans?

What they showed in Unity is like playing with legos. You can download a shit load of UI/AI scripts along with 60$ art packages (I think they used a Medeival Art package from the asset store) and plop them down into a world.

Are you seriously arguing that the amount of content displayed in the Pantheon KS is the result of 4-5 months' worth of passionate design work by ten MMO industry veterans?

and reference my swindle remark, on the ama he stated that the ks money was intended to back pay his team for the month(s) of pro bono work they had already contributed.

not to make a game, as already discussed.
not to move out of his garage, as theorized.

but to divvy up 75k each or so, for their well deserved and hard earned effort on everything you were fortunate enough to feast your eyes upon during the kickstarter. to keep their heads above water and wives off their ass until someone figured out what to do next.

fuck. that.

[–]AraduneMithara 9 points 10 hours ago

The goals haven't really changed. Whether or not we meet the KS goal doesn't change what we'd planned on doing post KS (being reaching out to investors).

I don't have a minimum amount... the team is working pro-bono and has been for months now. We want to give them $$ for their hard work as soon as those dollars start coming in (either from KS, or if KS doesn't succeed, from our website which will mirror all of the KS info).

Full Access to the Site. Champions are the heart of our community, and held is highest regard.

Long post on why Brad thinks he'd be a good CEO (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1439852-Fan-of-Everquest-Vanguard-New-MMO-Kickstarter-by-Brad-Mcquaid-Pantheon?p=25377961&viewfull=1#post25377961)   :awesome_for_real:

Long post on why Brad thinks he'd be a good CEO (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1439852-Fan-of-Everquest-Vanguard-New-MMO-Kickstarter-by-Brad-Mcquaid-Pantheon?p=25377961&viewfull=1#post25377961)   :awesome_for_real:

He had his chance, Vanguard was his chance.  It did have 'potential' (god I hate the word but there you go), I could see what he was going for, but the execution was so inept I didn't last two hours in it in some free beta.

He's a fucking dinosaur, he doesn't realize the MMO landscape has changed for the BETTER not worse.  Well it may have peaked at GW2 it seems to me.

No, he doesn't get the basic truth that EQ succeeded in spite of his vision, not because of it.

People who live in their parents' basements and dream of the Vision at night.

He's also still snorting oxy if he thinks he can make a decent MMO for the same $8-$10 million they spent on EQ1. That was over a decade ago,almost twenty years ago you fucking muppet, things cost more now.

This sort of thing really is fraudulent and kickstarter should put a stop to it.

How much of a kickback does kickstarter get from funded projects?

Nah, it's Kickstarter working as intended. Kickstarter only checks that the pitch looks good, not that the person behind it will keep their promises. They rely on 'the crowd' for that.

I disagree. The pitch was for a game. Taking the money to pay for services already rendered to create the pitch itself is fundamentally fraudulent.

(http://www.rerolled.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=60490&d=1392759546)

I was told this just happened on SA.

A shot for those of us without Rerolled accounts, if you please?

I wonder if he's trying to get it shut down so he can blame Kickstarter for the failure?

For some insane reason they are designing their website on the fly using the public url instead of on an internal site that only they can see so every terrible idea they come up with and try is viewable by everyone.  It is the same slapstick, fly by night, poorly run mess that the game would be so it's sort of like accidental truth in advertising.

The domain https://www.pantheonrotf.com/ is one L short of making fun of itself.

I want him to get funded just so the LOLZ will continue.

He's being eviscerated on SA right now. He still hasn't noticed (or isn't commenting on) his avatar either. Last Bradpost was yesterday.

I hate say this, but while you were busy growing up and getting a job, a whole new generation of people without time on their hands came about.

But these people will never experience the glory that is a game where you have to put any effort towards winning. Your everyone-must-get-a-trophy mentality is what is not only ruining the MMO genre, it's ruining the entire fucking world. Because "no one has time to play anymore" everything is now designed to fit your cookie-cutter 2-hour-maximum playstyle. You can now buy your way to victory through kickstarter initiatives and cash shops, and get the best loot from all the dungeons by simply standing in line for it. You don't even have to talk to people anymore because that is a waste of your precious fucking time.

All I can say is fuck you, and your shameful mentality. If you don't have time to play MMOs then you should get back to your fucking work and leave video games to the people who enjoy playing video games.

And look what you did making me get all emotional on the internet. Fuck you.

Not that we should really care, there are worse tragedies in the world, but considering his emotional fragility this whole thing is probably gonna hurt him for real. Real. If it isn't already.

We have found him. McQuaid's perfect target demographic. Hopefully his mom doesn't cancel the internet service to the basement when he doesn't clean the cat box.

McQuaid was excellent at designing

Funny thing about this guy is that the game he pines for isn't really a game.  It's a queue.  EQ rewarded people that had the time to wait in long queues, not those that were indeed skilled at the game.  McQuaid was excellent at designing queues with a game-like interface attached.  That's a lot of what I liked about EQ.  It was a chat interface.  I got to meet and interact with some very cool people while we were waiting. Waiting for mana to regen, waiting for a camp to respawn, waiting for a quest mob to appear, waiting for the boat to come... you get the picture.

To be honest, there are times when I miss that slower pace. I have decided that I loathe the linear quest hub to quest hub theme parks, with everyone dancing to their own tune and almost no interaction between people (even though I hate everyone). EQ was certainly different. I actually miss things like dangerous high level mobs wandering around lowbie zones and swatting the unwary, and hair-raising runs across high level zones. It felt like an adventure rather than a safe Disneyfied 'experience'.

(even though I hate everyone)

Oh I know..there was a lot of horribleness too. But every game these days has a terrible homogenous sameness that something outside of the WoW blueprint would be refreshing.

The market is ripe for a lot of things, but not at the idiotic mega-budgets that publishers are spending on MMOG's. These things need to be built for niche audiences with smaller, tighter budgets using off-the-shelf components for servers and backend technology. Shit, as many MMOG's have been released, you'd think that part of the process would be fairly standard by now but no one seems able or willing to do that. Fucking Minecraft has decent server tech, FFS.  Niche budgets, niche audiences, embrace the niche.

In other words, you're describing Richard Garriott's new endeavour.


*ducks*

onvo yes, we are aware. Which means we will be working hard to show what we can do. The team has plenty of experience in game development, so it's just a matter of showing y'all what we've got. The initial funding will help with that.
We're also upping the team size in our efforts to address concerns and answer questions. We've learned a lot from the KS and also have new team members coming aboard with plenty of skills to help in avoiding any oversights we initially had. So, moving forward, you'll see some more streamlined rollouts and faster turnaround to get out the kinds of information and adjustments the community is looking for.
We are also looking into making some public appearances where we can talk about any concerns that may have come up during the Kickstarter funding.

@Buccaneer Right now my focus has been to get more eyes on the Kickstarter and the project. We're pretty confident that we've reached a large segment of the gaming audience who have been looking for a game like this (that's verified by the 3k+ backers). So right now I'm working on ways to get more eyes on the project - the people who have been waiting for a game like this but aren't necessarily reading gaming sites or forums. It's a bit tricky to get those eyes here, but we've been making progress. This kind of outreach will be going on not just for the next few days, but beyond the kickstarter.

@Buccaneer - Doing another Kickstarter is not currently in the plans. We do have some other options in addition to our crowdfunding efforts on the game site, but I can't get into details about that right now.

@Jave This kind of goes in line with my comments to Buccaneer. There are some options right now, but it's too early for me to go into detail. I can say though, that we have received a great amount of interest in the project and things are looking good. And I totally hear you - we don't expect anyone to make an investment that they're not sure of. So we will be working hard to show you something much more substantial in the near future to ease your minds a bit. And hey, even after that, if you're not convinced - no worries. We don't want anyone jumping in where they're uncomfortable, and we'd be ecstatic to see you at launch if that's the case.

@Brunt thank you for your kind comments :) The team has been doing what they can to keep transparent and keep everyone up to date - that's going to be much easier in the near future with more team members aboard so that everyone can focus on their personal skill set.

@Buccaneer We're going to keep pushing here. We're aware of the numbers, but we're also not ashamed in the least bit of having over 3,000 backers and over $400k in pledges for such an early stage of the project.
If you're asking if there's going to be a demo unveiled or a teaser vid within the next few days, no, that won't happen unfortunately, but we are going through all our connections to make sure everyone knows the Kickstarter hours are few remaining

I don't know that I'd go that far. Many of the titles I listed are quite successful, making enough money to continue releasing content, with committed players. They don't make money hand over first like WoW, but that's not such a tragedy.

I like that these games exist, that innovation continues. I don't know of any huge games like TOR in production today; everything is scaled down, and that's a good thing. ESO and WIldstar will release, make a bunch of money, then go F2P or Buy2Play in a year and continue serving their players, and that's a good thing too. You don't need to beat WoW. I'd rather have dozens of smaller multiplayer titles competing in a vigorous market than 3 WoWs.

Also MOBAs are a huge multiplayer genre that didn't exist a couple years ago. They compete with WoW for revenue. I tend to keep them separate from this sort of discussion because they lack persistence, but they are multiplayer and they are RPGs. Who would have imagined that a completely new genre was even possible 5 years ago? But there'll be another one soon enough.

More team members they can't pay for?  I wonder how many designers they have ready to jump on board  :awesome_for_real:

This just in! Pantheon is moving to Rhode Island for loan guarantees!

This just in! Pantheon is moving to Rhode Island for loan guarantees!

..... This has been fun, but it's over now. ....

Hahahahahahhahah aahhhhh hahaha.

He thinks this is over.

Hahahahahahhahah aahhhhh hahaha.

He thinks this is over.

In 20/20 hindsight we should have both used a smaller goal and also one of the other crowdfunding sites out there that lets you keep the money, even if it’s short of the original goal.

The rest of the letter is laughable navel-gazing solipsism, but this line sure as shit rings true!

Wow.  There's the truth right there.  Trying to milk his fanboys, how anyone can still support him after that I don't know.  What a piece of shit.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict this is, indeed, the end.  No bucks, no Buck Rogers.   He should start losing people immediately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wsWf-z1SI8

 :awesome_for_real:

An average of $132 per person  :facepalm:

Or just pay $100 a month or $1,000 upfront (https://www.pantheonrotf.com/signup) and you get a lifetime subscription to a game that will never exist, plus lifetime apprentice developer title!

Atleast this thread is making me feel better about going in at pro level on the hex kickstarter (this proves that there are far worse ways to spend my money)  :why_so_serious:

* The expectations for those who pledge this tier are simple. Be ready and able to help us with any type of game testing and be willing to spend time submitting detailed bug reports.All of those who participate in this pledge must sign a Non-disclosure Agreement (NDA) and cannot work for any other game company. If at anytime we feel it is justified your access can be removed by the development team.

Or just pay $100 a month or $1,000 upfront (https://www.pantheonrotf.com/signup) and you get a lifetime subscription to a game that will never exist, plus lifetime apprentice developer title!

Well at least we know the term 'developer' is being thrown loosely around their offices.  So if customers can be developers and they're trusting their designers to be developers, how is this getting made?

Sir, I wish to speak to the captain of this ship, on the double!

Well at least we know the term 'developer' is being thrown loosely around their offices.  So if customers can be developers and they're trusting their designers to be developers, how is this getting made?

Sir, I wish to speak to the captain of this ship, on the double!

$400,000 would've bought a whole lotta speed.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict this is, indeed, the end.  No bucks, no Buck Rogers.   He should start losing people immediately.

The downside now is that our initial resources have depleted, which regrettably means that development is going to slow down until finances can be secured.

In the past few months we have seen some of the most passion bubble up from the Internet than we have in some time;

What the fuck does that even mean?

Not really surprising: https://www.pantheonrotf.com/blogs/355/91/pantheon-s-financial-situation

Ok, now it's just getting sad.

Not really now, not really just or not really sad?  :why_so_serious: