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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen turns out to be a real game (real bad, geddit?) 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen turns out to be a real game (real bad, geddit?)  (Read 326545 times)
Venkman
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Reply #490 on: February 13, 2014, 03:13:36 PM

Oh hehe, on that, you're probably right  Ohhhhh, I see.
Brolan
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Reply #491 on: February 13, 2014, 06:08:31 PM

There can't be anyone that knows the MMO business that thinks this can succeed.  You would have to get some rube and con him.

Best case is they get enough players to lead an WWIIOL-like existence where they get enough to keep the servers running but have nothing for development.
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #492 on: February 14, 2014, 09:18:41 AM

My point is that, in this specific case, I think the KS was supposed to substitute for angel investment, and that the benefits you're talking about were stumbled upon via a combination of serendipity and laziness.
No way. The kickstarter goal was $800k. Even if they hoped to double that, it's still not even remotely close to enough money to fund a MMO. They wanted a successful Kickstarter they could show to potential investors eager to enter the kickstarter zeitgeist they keep hearing about at their hipster san francisco coffee shops.

The Pantheon kickstarter is terrible, but that's not due to laziness. They clearly put a lot of work into creating assets hoping to make a great pitch. They just didn't understand how kickstarter works. Their message wasn't clear, and their pledge levels made no sense. Mistakes were similar to the infamous Wildman kickstarter. Except that Chris Taylor is awesome and McQuaid sucks.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 09:23:20 AM by sam, an eggplant »
Hutch
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Reply #493 on: February 14, 2014, 09:38:05 AM

They clearly put a lot of work into creating assets hoping to make a great pitch.

If they put a lot of work into creating assets, where were those assets? They supposedly were working on this thing for 4+ months before the KS. That's enough time to come up with tons of art, and a much more detailed description of the envisioned MMO. At margin call time, all they had was a couple of pictures, and a list of echoed sentiments about how modern-day MMOs have gotten away from presenting the old-school EQ experience.

This is why I said they were lazy. Never mind the botched KS pledge structure. If they were actually working on this, instead of just sitting around getting high for four months, they'd have had something more impressive to show.

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sam, an eggplant
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Reply #494 on: February 14, 2014, 09:44:06 AM

There was a bunch of concept art, a prototype of the game running in something like unity, their intro video, all the design content they've posted, and all the updates for the past couple of weeks. That's a lot of work. I mean, I thought most of it was crap myself, but someone worked on that stuff.
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Reply #495 on: February 14, 2014, 09:46:50 AM

There was a bunch of concept art, a prototype of the game running in something like unity, their intro video, all the design content they've posted, and all the updates for the past couple of weeks. That's a lot of work. I mean, I thought most of it was crap myself, but someone worked on that stuff.
If by 'a prototype of the game running in Unity' you mean 'they used stock Unity assets in a Unity demo' then fine I guess that counts as prototyping.

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Draegan
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Reply #496 on: February 14, 2014, 10:27:48 AM

The stuff they showed in Unity can be done by a person never using Unity with no programming experience after watching youtube videos for a week.
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #497 on: February 14, 2014, 10:46:15 AM

Really? Well...

That's a whole WEEK of work!
Draegan
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Reply #498 on: February 14, 2014, 11:08:35 AM

Unity is such a great tool to make demos with. The hard parts are actually making your own unique art assets.

Unity engine is limited though, there is no built-in, non-hacky way of make a tunnel or a whole in the terrain (like you can in minecraft). You can make voxel based terrain but the size of that terrain data file is gigantic. Outside that, you'd need maya or blender to make your own assets to place in the game. Which takes time and skill.

What they showed in Unity is like playing with legos. You can download a shit load of UI/AI scripts along with 60$ art packages (I think they used a Medeival Art package from the asset store) and plop them down into a world.

Shit I made this after watching 1 hour of videos. I was quite proud of myself. The Free Unity engine has shit for water dynamics.

Hutch
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Reply #499 on: February 14, 2014, 11:34:57 AM

Really? Well...

That's a whole WEEK of work!

Hmm. Now I want to break out the "not sure if serious" emote.

Are you seriously arguing that the amount of content displayed in the Pantheon KS is the result of 4-5 months' worth of passionate design work by ten MMO industry veterans?

Wait a minute.

That would actually explain a lot about the past decade of MMO history. Never mind. Carry on.

Plant yourself like a tree
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The sun will shine on us again, brother
HaemishM
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Reply #500 on: February 14, 2014, 11:45:57 AM

Are you seriously arguing that the amount of content displayed in the Pantheon KS is the result of 4-5 months' worth of passionate design work by ten MMO industry veterans?

If the content didn't crash or eat all the files on your hard drive when you tried to view it, there's no way it could have been done by MMO industry vets.

dalien
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Reply #501 on: February 14, 2014, 12:57:40 PM

Are you seriously arguing that the amount of content displayed in the Pantheon KS is the result of 4-5 months' worth of passionate design work by ten MMO industry veterans?

Xuri
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Reply #502 on: February 14, 2014, 01:00:24 PM

What they showed in Unity is like playing with legos. You can download a shit load of UI/AI scripts along with 60$ art packages (I think they used a Medeival Art package from the asset store) and plop them down into a world.
This is true. Here's something I've been working on in Unity, using only stock assets and some asset store packages.

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Venkman
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Reply #503 on: February 14, 2014, 01:22:36 PM

Fable screenshots.

(kidding. nice work smiley )

On topic? I got nuthin'. Dabbled with Unity a year or so back. Managed to drive a flaming ball through some trees. Which was about as far as I got with the NWN creation tools. Thing of it is, I used to actually be a content creator, and now that they're practically giving away all this shit for free and it's all super easy to learn and master, I don't got the freakin' time!

Ok, sure, actually I do if I wasn't constantly trying to play other people's creations too  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #504 on: February 14, 2014, 02:21:25 PM

Are you seriously arguing that the amount of content displayed in the Pantheon KS is the result of 4-5 months' worth of passionate design work by ten MMO industry veterans?
I thought it was plausible. I'm not a developer or an artist, so I don't have a real feeling how long creating assets and demos actually takes. Some of you apparently do. I'm not 14, so solid arguments can change my mind when I'm wrong. That's so unusual on the internet you took my flippant response as serious!

I heard it was modular with tons of free assets, and well documented, I had no idea the barrier to entry was so low with unity. A single week to make a demo! Very cool.
dalien
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Reply #505 on: February 15, 2014, 12:54:50 PM

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone but Brad admitted during his last AMA that this Kickstarter money isn't to make a game, or move into an office, or anything like that.  It's meant to pay his team for all their hard work over the past few months.  No, really.

Quote
and reference my swindle remark, on the ama he stated that the ks money was intended to back pay his team for the month(s) of pro bono work they had already contributed.

not to make a game, as already discussed.
not to move out of his garage, as theorized.

but to divvy up 75k each or so, for their well deserved and hard earned effort on everything you were fortunate enough to feast your eyes upon during the kickstarter. to keep their heads above water and wives off their ass until someone figured out what to do next.

fuck. that.

[–]AraduneMithara 9 points 10 hours ago

The goals haven't really changed. Whether or not we meet the KS goal doesn't change what we'd planned on doing post KS (being reaching out to investors).

I don't have a minimum amount... the team is working pro-bono and has been for months now. We want to give them $$ for their hard work as soon as those dollars start coming in (either from KS, or if KS doesn't succeed, from our website which will mirror all of the KS info).


And... I think I'm done here.  As sad of a show as this has been, at this point it's starting to feel like we're piling on the fat kid.
Paelos
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Reply #506 on: February 15, 2014, 01:00:58 PM

Nope, we're kicking the shitheel who wanted to bilk people out of their money.

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sam, an eggplant
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Reply #507 on: February 15, 2014, 01:43:47 PM

This sort of thing really is fraudulent and kickstarter should put a stop to it.
KallDrexx
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Reply #508 on: February 15, 2014, 02:10:14 PM

Btw, in case anyone was suspicious about the forum subscription model, it is real.  And what's sad is you can already see some people posting on the forums which means some idiots actually subscribed..   swamp poop

*edit*

Long post on why Brad thinks he'd be a good CEO   awesome, for real
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 02:16:53 PM by KallDrexx »
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #509 on: February 15, 2014, 02:36:53 PM

Quote
Full Access to the Site. Champions are the heart of our community, and held is highest regard.
You'd think they'd proofread before asking people to pay $15/month for fuck all.
Rendakor
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Reply #510 on: February 15, 2014, 03:08:22 PM

Maybe if you offer them $30/month you can be their editor.

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Venkman
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Reply #511 on: February 15, 2014, 03:16:51 PM

Here's what I don't get.

He was last relevant, what, 7 years ago when Vanguard was supposed to be a thing. Like, until it launched. So, call it even longer because that one was entirely on the cache of his starpower to a certain culture of MMORPGers who hated all that carebear shit like teleporting and quests that explained what you were supposed to do. Ya know, all the easymode stuff that utterly killed the genre after the heyday of the late 90s.

So who exactly a) still recognizes his name at all; and, b) thinks he can actually do all the stuff he's promised (quite verbosely) since all his ranting on the Vanguard boards?

I need to know who these people are, so I can avoid them.
Lantyssa
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Reply #512 on: February 15, 2014, 03:20:34 PM

People who live in their parents' basements and dream of the Vision at night.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Venkman
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Reply #513 on: February 15, 2014, 03:26:06 PM

Sure I could see that maybe 10 years ago. That's a pretty long time to not change one's lifestyle smiley
Hutch
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Reply #514 on: February 15, 2014, 03:36:04 PM


He is still blaming Microsoft and SOE for Vanguard being a buggy, sloppy mess. A good CEO would be taking responsibility for the state of his own software project.

This isn't the first time he's tried to blame Microsoft for transforming a software project that was on its way from being a well-managed, on-time, within-budget AAA gaming experience into the utter failure that got sold to SOE for pennies on the dollar. If Sigil was on track to putting out a good game, I think the people at Microsoft wouldn't have changed management teams on them in the first place.

The thing he doesn't blame Microsoft for is backing Sigil financially. How many millions of their dollars got flushed down the toilet? I bet they took a look at what Sigil had produced, saw an analogue of the Pantheon KS, and decided to cut their losses.

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Tannhauser
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Reply #515 on: February 15, 2014, 06:12:43 PM

He had his chance, Vanguard was his chance.  It did have 'potential' (god I hate the word but there you go), I could see what he was going for, but the execution was so inept I didn't last two hours in it in some free beta.

He's a fucking dinosaur, he doesn't realize the MMO landscape has changed for the BETTER not worse.  Well it may have peaked at GW2 it seems to me.
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Reply #516 on: February 15, 2014, 06:59:49 PM

Brolan
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Reply #517 on: February 15, 2014, 07:26:58 PM

He had his chance, Vanguard was his chance.  It did have 'potential' (god I hate the word but there you go), I could see what he was going for, but the execution was so inept I didn't last two hours in it in some free beta.

He's a fucking dinosaur, he doesn't realize the MMO landscape has changed for the BETTER not worse.  Well it may have peaked at GW2 it seems to me.

No, he doesn't get the basic truth that EQ succeeded in spite of his vision, not because of it.
luckton
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Reply #518 on: February 15, 2014, 07:55:01 PM

KickTraq reporting that pledges dipped into the negative for the second time today, though that may be a result of the Kickstarter hacking and people withdrawing their money out of fear than it is over Bard's commentary the last few days.

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Venkman
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Reply #519 on: February 15, 2014, 08:22:00 PM

He had his chance, Vanguard was his chance.  It did have 'potential' (god I hate the word but there you go), I could see what he was going for, but the execution was so inept I didn't last two hours in it in some free beta.

He's a fucking dinosaur, he doesn't realize the MMO landscape has changed for the BETTER not worse.  Well it may have peaked at GW2 it seems to me.

No, he doesn't get the basic truth that EQ succeeded in spite of his vision, not because of it.

Yea probably this.

I wouldn't think anything wrong with any of this except he's trying to cash in on whatever people associate with his personal brand, without realizing that brand is tarnished and archeic and the only people attracted to it are the very last audience anyone actually wants.

Like, if he wanted to found a studio and build a game and it got good ratings and was fun and THEN it came out that he was behind it, shit, I'd be cheering that right along. But don't lead with the idea that you are the reason everyone loves something when you're the only one that thinks that, and only because of an extreme lack of self awareness.

But like I said earlier, at least he's doing it on the cheap, and i imagine the folks who donated some time assumed they were gifting it rather than loaning.
El Gallo
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Reply #520 on: February 16, 2014, 03:08:26 PM

People who live in their parents' basements and dream of the Vision at night.

I believe, Father Brad *scourges self* please forgive me *scourges self* for playing WoW that one time *donates life savings to help fund The Game That Was Promised*

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
HaemishM
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Reply #521 on: February 17, 2014, 01:27:30 PM

Man, fuck this guy SO HARD.

Kickstarters aren't meant to be "pay my boys back for the spec work I conned them into doing." They are supposed to be for something concrete - if it's a demo to show to investors, at least that's something. He's also still snorting oxy if he thinks he can make a decent MMO for the same $8-$10 million they spent on EQ1. That was over a decade ago, you fucking muppet, things cost more now. As for his qualities as a CEO, if you can't be arsed to come and lay off your whole staff yourself because of your piss poor management skills, you shouldn't be CEO of a goddamn hot dog stand.

Ginaz
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Reply #522 on: February 17, 2014, 07:53:46 PM

I wonder how long it will be until the fanboys start claiming that the reason this didn't get funded was because KS got hacked?  Because we all know its going to be one of the excuses. awesome, for real
Merusk
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Reply #523 on: February 17, 2014, 08:13:49 PM

He's also still snorting oxy if he thinks he can make a decent MMO for the same $8-$10 million they spent on EQ1. That was over a decade ago,almost twenty years ago you fucking muppet, things cost more now.

You're off by almost a factor of two.  He started dev in 1996, 18 years ago.  You're old, man.

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Reply #524 on: February 18, 2014, 06:47:04 AM

This sort of thing really is fraudulent and kickstarter should put a stop to it.

Nah, it's Kickstarter working as intended. Kickstarter only checks that the pitch looks good, not that the person behind it will keep their promises. They rely on 'the crowd' for that.

For all Brad's blaming of MS, MS (initially at least) had faith in Sigil. Not only were they funding Vanguard's development, but MS had also given Sigil the Marvel MMO licence to develop. That project was quietly dropped when Vanguard turned into a rolling disaster and new MS management weren't interested in funding an obvious trainwreck.

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