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Author Topic: State of The Game - Mark Jacobs  (Read 276028 times)
Velorath
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Posts: 7797


Reply #175 on: October 18, 2008, 05:15:21 AM

I do think that some of the problem is the fact that people think 40 < 60 when it comes to levels and that the grinding seems worse because you have only 40 levels to go to max out.

Personally my line of thinking is that that there's 120 levels to go through in order to max out, which is largely why I do scenarios.  It's the only activity that really allows you to grind through two kinds of levels at once.  If open RVR allowed me to do that at the same pace, I'd be switching back and forth between the two.
Fordel
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Posts: 8292


Reply #176 on: October 18, 2008, 05:16:36 AM

Quote
I've played a ton of MMOs and, at least according to the spreadsheet the time to solo most toons is faster here (on paper, I know) than EQ, DAoC, WoW when they launched.  Again, I'm not, not saying working as intended (I hate that phrase) but when we set out the number originally it was still less than those games and I cut that number down even more about 6 months ago.


Try comparing it to WoW's XP curve NOW, since that's what you're competing with   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? (Obvious post is obvious again?).


Raw speed is certainly important (probably most, go fast enough and no one will care HOW), but so is HOW you level up. Reading about Schild and his adventures in the same Scenario over a entire weekend sucks away my interest in playing.

"So I can like Grind WSG/AB, but to level too?" Heartbreak



Like, Schild has said before, Why would you be afraid of people hitting level cap in WAR?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Arthur_Parker
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Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #177 on: October 18, 2008, 05:21:51 AM

Quote
Also on server population balance, I'd put a T4 only quest item drop on the final keep lord before a city attack.  Make it an item that you can mail to an alt on the same account that makes them permanently gain exp at twice the normal rate.  That encourages people to make alts. 

Lol.

It's more reasonable for you to simply gain EXP at double the rate on any alt once you hit T4 at all. Mythic/Mark should not be afraid of having an entire playerbase at Tier 4 and going toe to toe in RvR (if they can find eachother - tee-hee).

Why's it more reasonable?  If you want a double exp alt, be part of an attack that locks down the final zone before a city attack, players value things more if they have to do something to get them.  Also you want people in RVR.  I take it you don't object to the "double exp invite a friend" similar thing for order?  They could even get it for defending their home city during an attack.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #178 on: October 18, 2008, 05:26:04 AM

I think you're spending too much time getting drawn into internet arguments Mark.

Whether it's sniping between you and some Blizzard dudes or debating with the crazies here I don't think it's a good use of your time right now. The things you've been saying online over the last few days make you sound stressed, defensive and a bit desperate. Please don't take that personally, it's just my opinion. Turn off the computers, go and take a shower, have a meal with your family, go for a walk, get all of this shit out of your head and devote your energies to the game, not to fighting with a bunch of cranky internet nerds (even if they happen to be COO's of your competitors).

Also, stop referring to trolls. Anywhere. Sure, there may be people who don't care what they're posting just cos they like getting a rise out of you, but I'd guess that 95% of the posts that you think of as trolling posts are just frustrated players expressing themselves in the language of the medium - i.e. not very eloquently and dressed up in internet-forum hostility dialect. By taking time to specifically label them as trolls it makes it sound like you have contempt for their feelings. And even if that's true, letting people know it is a very bad idea. Behind every "troll" is a pissed-off player or almost-player, neither of which you want to drive away.

Again, just thoughts from another internet nerd. Don't take anything anyone says on the internet personally, even when it's, you know, a personal attack.

Actually, I've probably only used the trolls term a handful of times in the last few months.  And I usually only use it when I know the person is trolling but I've cut way, way down on that from my "Have a cookie, trolls like cookies" days. :)

As far as taking what you said personally, LOL, no worries at all.

As to being stressed, yep, I plead guilty to that.  3+ years on a game, working for someone else for the first time in 20+ years, serious competition, nasty family issues, etc., etc., etc.  So, I probably do sound a bit defensive but it won't last much longer.  I hope to take my first real vacation in a year soon.  Thanks for the concern and the advice, seriously.

Mark
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #179 on: October 18, 2008, 05:29:37 AM

Quote
I've played a ton of MMOs and, at least according to the spreadsheet the time to solo most toons is faster here (on paper, I know) than EQ, DAoC, WoW when they launched.  Again, I'm not, not saying working as intended (I hate that phrase) but when we set out the number originally it was still less than those games and I cut that number down even more about 6 months ago.


Try comparing it to WoW's XP curve NOW, since that's what you're competing with   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? (Obvious post is obvious again?).


Raw speed is certainly important (probably most, go fast enough and no one will care HOW), but so is HOW you level up. Reading about Schild and his adventures in the same Scenario over a entire weekend sucks away my interest in playing.

"So I can like Grind WSG/AB, but to level too?" Heartbreak

Like, Schild has said before, Why would you be afraid of people hitting level cap in WAR?

I did that (the XP comparison) already. :)  And in terms of being afraid, we're not which is why we, in theory, made it easier to level than most of the competition (I can't say all since I haven't played all MMOs).

Mark
FatuousTwat
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Reply #180 on: October 18, 2008, 05:38:22 AM

I gotta say that it is pretty fucking awesome that Mark is actually willing to discuss this with us here.

The way that the majority of people are responding to this thread is great. People seem to care about this game.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 05:59:36 AM by FatuousTwat »

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Goreschach
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Reply #181 on: October 18, 2008, 05:42:23 AM


I did that (the XP comparison) already. :)  And in terms of being afraid, we're not which is why we, in theory, made it easier to level than most of the competition (I can't say all since I haven't played all MMOs).

Mark

You're missing the point. Leveling in this game is incredibly tedious, much moreso than in wow. This is just compounded by the fact that most of the players aren't even here for the diku leveling shit, they're here for the pvp. Even if leveling is objectively faster in war, that isn't necessarily good enough because expectations are different. And that isn't even taking into account the general bugs and weirdness players have to put up with, which will just aggravate anything they already find to be annoying.

Let me put it this way: I like the pvp. I like scenarios. I won't even mention open rvr, because it basically doesn't exist. If it did, I suppose I'd at least try it. Offhand, I can think of at least 3 classes that I'd be interested in playing as alts. And right now I'm considering canceling my account. Why? Because leveling is around five times slower than I'd be happy with.

There's no way in hell I'd currently make a single alt, as I'm mind numbingly tired of even leveling my main character. Maybe you think people would get bored once they hit 40, and maybe after a while they would. I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm already bored. There are things I'd like to do in the game, but I'm not going to bother with the grind the way it is.
Fordel
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Reply #182 on: October 18, 2008, 05:45:26 AM

I did that (the XP comparison) already. :)  And in terms of being afraid, we're not which is why we, in theory, made it easier to level than most of the competition (I can't say all since I haven't played all MMOs).


Theory failed!   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?



No seriously, there is a massive disconnect between what you deem an acceptable rate of leveling and what the players will seemingly stand for. People shouldn't be going "T1 fine, T2 mostly fine, T3 HOLY COCKSHITWALLBLOCKFUCK, T4 /wrist".  Leveling stops being any kind of fun after awhile AND it slows the fuck down.

Like I said before, I have yet to see a game fail because they leveled too fast.

Plenty of games that don't even exist anymore because of the opposite though!




-fake preview edit- See Goreschach? He is exactly what I am referring too. "Is the end game fun? Fuck if I know, I'm stuck at level 22" (note: I don't actually know what level Gore is  Ohhhhh, I see. )

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
FatuousTwat
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Reply #183 on: October 18, 2008, 06:18:57 AM

I'd like to throw out an idea that just came to me...

Could you somehow connect ORVR and scenarios? Something along the lines of DAOC's Darkness Falls... Keeps have to change hands so many times before a certain scenario opens? Or maybe a certain amount of people have to be killed in ORVR? Limit the amount of scenario games played each time they open?

Perhaps have the scenarios somehow effect keeps as well?

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Nija
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Posts: 2092


Reply #184 on: October 18, 2008, 06:24:00 AM

One of the main problems, to me, is the that the zones weren't made with the server technology in mind. The zones are huge. I like huge zones - I love them in fact. But I only truly like them when they are filled with people.

I know it's 4am PST on a Saturday morning, but I just logged on my level 31 Archmage, who can't do anything worthwhile solo, (absolutely nothing.) and I then went to every T3 Warcamp and did a /who, and then I manually counted the people I saw sitting next to the scenario quest turn in people.

Every single person on my various /who searches was accounted for at the various Warcamps, waiting on a queue to pop. There wasn't a single person out doing quests, PQs, exploring, anything. Not a single one.

2k people per server is about 8k too few. Look at all of the T4 zones. You should entirely close down the Elf area and the Dwarf/Greenskin area until those cities are in the game, and until you've done a couple waves of server merges.

We need an in game population density about equal to Oakland, California. Currently it's at Kansas levels. This game is like Eve in that it requires people playing it in order to be fun. The content will be self sustaining once the correct rewards are in place. I don't see that happening with the current pop. density, though.

As for people constantly doing scenarios, just disable the ones that can be done quickest for the best xp/hr. That would be Mourkain and Tor Anroc. I'd do something other than scenarios if there were other people doing something other than scenarios. My class requires other people, so I'm kind of up shit creek if the PVE game is empty. The point of disabling those scenarios is to get some good data points from the other scenarios that barely get played. See how much exp people are getting from a 15 minute game of Phoenix Gate. See why that cemetary one scores so low. You need to have every single scenario giving out the same relative exp over a 15 minute timeframe.

Like Schild, I leveled through T3 entirely by doing Tor Anroc. I've played two other scenarios one time each. It went very fast because I grouped with two friends who were Bright Wizards, and I just kept them healed so they ran around with 100 combustion and skullfucked entire teams. We'd all 3 get about 8% of a level after quest turn ins per scenario. We'd make our own group as to not share any of our solo kill experience, and the xp gained per game was substantial. There were several games where all three of us got over 20k exp. We can finish a game in under 6 minutes, with 4:30 being the quickest one that I've noticed so far.

T4, so far, is a nightmare. Destruction is filled with level 40 guys who have been level 40 for 3 weeks now - all using the AE kill streak "bug" (not a bug, just not as intended) to level extremely fast. Now we're forced into the PVE game, after having done almost 0 PVE, because we lose 90% of the T4 scenarios. Losing = bad exp. Bad exp from scenarios makes them inefficient.

Take a look at my characters. My first guy was on a server that ended up being unbalanced 3:1 in Destructions favor. I could do tons of PQs because there were tons of people always there. But I never got into any good, evenly matched fights. It was a disgusting zerg. We uprooted our entire guild 2 weeks ago and rolled Order characters, no +xp bonus or server transfers or anything. The old fashioned, pain in the ass way.

Click the Influence tab for each of these guys. It shows which chapters the character has participated in, as far as Inf goes. The reason I've done barely any PVE on Plincess Toadstoor is that there isn't anyone doing PVE, anywhere.





The main reason you see everyone talking about the PVE game being so shitty between the T3 and T4 junction, especially on this forum - with everyone playing on a Destruction stacked server, is they are getting their goddamn cocks crushed in T4 scenarios fighting squads of level 40 characters doing the only thing that has given them decent risk/rewards/time investment for the entire life of their character. Now we're all collectively being forced into the wild-goddamn-wilderness, that is fucking empty BTW, (in case you missed that) and doing quests that net .75% of a level per turn in. Not good.
Kirth
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Reply #185 on: October 18, 2008, 07:13:22 AM

I'm not frothy anymore. Fox just ordered a full season of Sarah Connor chronicles. That said, my description of t3/t4 above still stands. That's seriously how it feels mark and it's terrible.

Good to see fox stopped being so  swamp poop

As to Warhammer, if we are throwing ideas out there: Add a chest similar to what you get off killing a keep lord for successfully defending a keep(make keep defense a public quest with some goal of kill xx players), give defenders a way to "Push" out attackers and lock the keep down for anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour+. I've participated in attacks and defense, attacks tend to be more hit and run affairs, where you want to avoid massive amount of enemy's so you can increase rewards (keep lord chests). Defense is just a delaying the inevitable , where attackers bust in the front gate, bust in the keep and depending on number you just hold the floor with the keep lord on it or they wipe you out bag the keep lord and move on. Defense is alot fun but there is no end to it, no goal no reward. Coming from Order side I think alot more people would be engaged in saving a keep if they knew they could "Win" if only temporarily. Another thing that would be nice is to have the NPC defenders power level related to the number of Player defenders, this would be an answer tot he early morning keep raiding problem. I'm not saying have them so powerful that its impossible to get past them but to make it so small bands can't ninja keeps in the wee hours when no one is on, just so that it might slow larger forces down slightly until defenders can be mustered. . 
Modern Angel
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Reply #186 on: October 18, 2008, 08:23:13 AM

I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but the PvE is *bad*. Bad bad. And I know that's a subjective thing but there aren't even escort quests. I hate escort quests but they at least show that scripting can be done, even if it's rudimentary.

The PvE in this game feels like a terrible grind. When I stepped outside a little bit I realized that it's not any grindier than WoW time wise but it *feels* that way. It's stultifying. For all the cool scripting events on some of the PQs not one whit of it was spared for the standard PvE. To level at any sort of a reasonable rate (for my sanity at least) I was doing PvE and scenarios all at the same time, which is about what I suspect you guys wanted me to do. But somewhere in t3 it all changed and the bar just wasn't moving fast enough.

Now, like I said, this is all subjective and part of what I as a player see but holding up a spread sheet and saying it's not actually grindy doesn't change anyone's perceptions. Perceptions are what matter. Out of the tons of people I play with or know who play (dozens and dozens) precisely three have objected to my saying that the grind was getting to me. The rest nodded their heads and said something to the effect of everything else being so awesome but god, the grind... that's not good.
Typhon
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Reply #187 on: October 18, 2008, 08:36:25 AM

I like RvR (played DAOC for two years), but I also really like scenarios due to the numbers of combatants being even and the "click a button to queue for the scenario... no matter where you are or what you are doing".

I would love it if:

1) scenarios represented some tactical/strategic value in RvR. Example: playing (and winning) Nordenwatch boosts guard NPCs at a particular location in RvR. Playing a scenario that was a key value to an underway RvR engagement should provide greater reward (some folks want to participate in RvR but their machines can't handle it)

2) there was a UI that lets us know which scenarios are being queued for by the opposite side

3) there was a mechanism to encourage people to play something beside fucking Tor Anroc.  I fucking hate Tor Anroc, and I play a class with knockback. Give scenario's a "rested bonus", so that ones that aren't being played as much are worth more so that people who hate the popular scenarios get a little variety.

Lum
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Hellfire Games


Reply #188 on: October 18, 2008, 09:57:26 AM

My God, don't you people sleep?
schild
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WWW
Reply #189 on: October 18, 2008, 10:37:42 AM

My God, don't you people sleep?

Some of us don't sleep much.
Triforcer
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Reply #190 on: October 18, 2008, 10:47:18 AM

My God, don't you people sleep?

Not for a thread of this caliber (thejeni quality).  Seriously, this thread needs to be inscribed on plates of beaten gold, read through seer stones, and used as the basis of a religion that has magic underwear and opposes gay marriage.  Even reading the first post or two out loud should summon a horde of flying monkeys.  That's how fucking awesome this is. 

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #191 on: October 18, 2008, 10:53:40 AM

My God, don't you people sleep?

Not for a thread of this caliber (thejeni quality).  Seriously, this thread needs to be inscribed on plates of beaten gold, read through seer stones, and used as the basis of a religion that has magic underwear and opposes gay marriage.  Even reading the first post or two out loud should summon a horde of flying monkeys.  That's how fucking awesome this is. 

Yup. The Blood God has nothing on this. I'm having it tattooed on my back.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Lantyssa
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Reply #192 on: October 18, 2008, 11:31:20 AM

Yup. The Blood God has nothing on this. I'm having it tattooed on my back.
You need it in glowing ink, like a Bright Wizard.  We can call the followers Forumites.  Or something.  Definately Chaos followers of some type.  Rant for the Word God!

Unfortunately most of the points I'd like to make already have been.  Someone needs to come up with something while everyone else is asleep.  I will add:

And that's exactly what I said we'd do.  We're going to boost it like crazy.  Maybe I would have been better off just saying:

We are going to boost RvR like crazy, it's going to be the place to be.  You'd have to have 10 tons of brain damage not to go open RvR.
For future reference, something of this magnitude which addresses the biggest concern people have needs to be highlighted early on.  Good to hear.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Righ
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Teaching the world Google-fu one broken dream at a time.


Reply #193 on: October 18, 2008, 12:09:18 PM

Man, the Chinese get a Formula 1 Grand Prix so the qualifying is in the middle of the night in US time, and I miss the great debate.

What was your server population tonight when you logged in?

So, let me ask you, would you prefer a server type where there are no scenarios and everybody has to open RvR?

I wouldn't know Mark, you gave a 20% bonus to Destruction on the server where my Orc was and I went and played him. Does that make me a bad man?

I certainly don't see the need for a "no scenarios" server. Go ahead and do it if you like - you've already stated that you intend to greatly increase the skirmish & keep RvR, and that's the solution that most of us here are looking for. We can live with people playing scenarios so long as its not all the people. Optional transfer servers bring their own problems - they fracture groups/guilds and they often result in low populations or populations of people who are trying out one last changed variant before packing in playing. I'm not really interested in those odds with any of my more 'developed' characters.

As well as the incentive for pukka RvR - please make keep taking and defending the greatest rate of both XP and renown gains and improve loot there both from keep lords and player kills while engaged in that activity - there should be a slowed rate associated with repeated scenario playing. Rewarding Schild for grinding Tor Anroc and becoming unmotivated to play was foolish - after a certain number of runs of the same scenario cut the gains for a character. That forces people to do something else, even if its another scenario, which breaks up the monotony and aids retention - and means that more than four scenarios get played regularly on each server. But the gains elsewhere have to be as good. That's a must. Whatever you do, please make significant open RvR XP gains a very very high priority. Version 1.0x priority.

Also, could you please look into the zone control? Something is broken, and I suspect victory points are accumulating multiplied by the number of participants, rewarding mass participation more than a smaller but competent group. The consensus seems to be that "the other side is exploiting" but you guys must have the stats to know the score.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
UnSub
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Reply #194 on: October 18, 2008, 12:50:20 PM

On the original topic: hire a PR person.

We, the customers, aren't stupid on the whole. When someone from MMO studio A talks down a competitor product from MMO studio B, we kinda figure out that they have a reason for doing so that isn't pure of heart. It's the same when MMO studio A makes positive comments about the future of their game - it's self-interest.

Where this becomes fun for the rest of us is seeing the CEO of one company responding longhand to comments made by some guys from the other company. Blizzard doesn't talk about their competitors except when they can point out how small they are. You know what would have worked better? A two sentence reply that dismisses WoW's comments in a pithy way, such as: "We know there are those at Blizzard who have been playing WAR non-stop and we look forward to Kaplan joining us. We can give him a few levelling and PvP tips if he needs it."

You can get your new PR person to check through your SoGs and related comments to check them for factual accuracy. The "no other MMO has EVAH offered free classes!" was stupid because it was so simply disproved (and since no-one else mentioned it, DDO introduced the Drow free as well back in 2006). It also makes you look like you haven't been paying attention to what the rest of the industry is doing.

Also, you can say how nice you were to Blizzard all you want, but Paul Barnett wasn't adverse to putting the boot in. From Blizzard's (and everyone else's really) viewpoint, that's still Mythic saying bad things about Blizzard.

We are going to boost RvR like crazy, it's going to be the place to be.  You'd have to have 10 tons of brain damage not to go open RvR.

Hello.

I play off-peak times. My ORvR experience has been running around an empty RvR area, looking at the various control points. No deleveling means no going back to previous locations. Glad to hear the teleport to RvR is under consideration, because the alternative is to wait in a warcamp just in case, which isn't what I want to pay $15 a month to do.

WAR's biggest problem is the lack of population proportional to world / content size. Scenarios work because they bring players together easily. Technical miracles aside, the next server type should be double (at least) your current population limits. Give those free transfers, give out lots of xp rewards on the new server, merge servers, whatever - RvR (and PQs, for that matter) don't work off-peak because there are not enough people around. From a lot of people's comments, it appears that this issue flows over to peak periods as well.

All the talk of no-scenario servers or what the WoWheads may or may not want is obscuring the issue. More players per server = more targets in RvR / PvP.

Finally, everyone who thinks cutting rewards for scenarios in any way, shape or form is a good idea has that "10 tons of brain damage" mentioned above. Buff the other rewards, don't nerf the reward scheme you currently have.

Sjofn
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Truckasaurus Hands


Reply #195 on: October 18, 2008, 01:20:53 PM

One problem with the "we need WAY MORE PEOPLE PER SERVER" thing is that the game really, really hates when a lot of people are on my screen. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a bit of the reason people don't go do open RvR as well. I really like taking keeps, but even when I turn everything down it gets pretty slideshow-y, and when you're a tank class, that's really bad. :(

God Save the Horn Players
Khaldun
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Reply #196 on: October 18, 2008, 02:37:42 PM

Mark:

I think the thing I'm looking for, which I've written about, is a lead developer for a MMOG who recognizes the peculiar character of their job in relationship to the customer base. I don't think there is an easily comparable service industry. You're the public representative of a team of people who combine the roles of political rulers, gods, authors, customer service, and seller of goods in relationship to their players/customers/citizens. I don't really think any developer has understood how that melange of roles and responsibilities ought to impact how and when they talk about their gameworld. Raph probably gets closest to understanding what this means and crafting a public voice to go with it.

Blizzard solves this problem largely by hiding the decision-making layer of their live management away entirely, and leaving it almost entirely to an intermediary layer of customer service representatives to speak on behalf of the gameworld sovereigns to the playerbase. I don't think that's the right way to go, but they stick to it with some consistency and it functions fairly well as a result. If you think in terms of political sovereignty, it's rather like a mysterious kind of royalty who appears only in glimpses in public, with decisions being shrouded behind layers of pomp and circumstance in the royal court. They do ok with this approach largely because they deliver a very polished, reliable product.

I don't think you have that luxury if you want to hold steady at 500k subs, not the least because Blizzard also is pretty damn smart about undercutting competition in all sorts of ways, including public jabs designed to put competitors off their feed. But the public voice you've built up over the years isn't a consistent alternative that will create loyalty in players through rough patches in the development of a game. I think a couple of other people have used this analogy, but I hear too much Smedley in some of what you say--too much promotion, too much all-is-well, too much Oval Office press secretary.

I think a consistent alternative to Blizzard's remote, chilly inaccessibility is to take people inside the structure of your decision-making, to create a transparent kind of affect, to go for sustained honesty. I don't think a single MMOG has helped its retention rates by saying, "All is basically well! We hear your concerns, and believe me, we take them seriously! Great things are coming, and great things have already come!" It just doesn't work with your audience. They've usually played a lot of these things, they're often pretty savvy about design issues.

 This isn't just about saying, "Players are right! I am sorry! We suck!", either. Taking people inside the process of decision-making is about laying out the issues clearly, and not ceding to players your judgment about the right way to go on some of the tougher issues. On the RvR lakes, for example, you could say, "Ok, here's what we're thinking. We can tweak this and that in the short-term  and see what works better. Our *design goal* is XYZ for those lakes. But we can't do some of the things you're suggesting, either because they are impossible given our resource limitations or our code base, or because we think they're honestly not good ideas." Etc. Really, almost no one has taken this approach, in part because they don't want to demoralize their own team by appearing to criticize them in public. Or, if I can be brutal, because at least some MMOG designers don't understand the problems and issues in MMOGs half as well as some of their most experienced players. I think you understand well enough, so why not work your way towards transparency, inclusion, straight-talking honesty?

What have you got to lose? The current approach to communication is really not going to get you over the problems I see you having *very soon*. I know I'm fairly close to unsubbing myself now that I feel I've seen most of the interesting issues that Warhammer poses for the MMOG form and its future. I generally find that in terms of whether I'm having fun or not in a MMOG, I'm right about where the consensus judgment falls--when I've unsubbed, I'm usually in the middle of a wave of unsubbing.
Righ
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Reply #197 on: October 18, 2008, 03:23:30 PM

What have you got to lose?

Typically, time. Engaging your customers in that level of frank discourse generally requires not only that one or more people are reading the hundreds or thousands of responses to every official statement, but also that they are digesting them, evaluating them and responding to them. That doesn't just take up the time of the customer facing staff, but also all the development staff who have to explain each technical issue to those staff and why certain suggestions may or may not work.

In other words, the decision making process in a 300 person development team involves enough voices. When you add in a million customers at every meeting and evaluate every idea that each of those 1,000,300 people come up with, nothing gets done.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Khaldun
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Reply #198 on: October 18, 2008, 03:43:59 PM

I'm not saying you evaluate every idea: if you don't have a good heuristic for sorting out high-value communications from low-value ones, you're not a good user of online information, period. That's like learning how to read. It's a basic skill.

Nor am I saying that Mark's personal job is to do that evaluation. But neither should his personal job be the hands-on implementation of specific coding or designs, either. If his job is to communicate in any respect, best he do it in a way that builds retention rather than does nothing for it. I think honesty, transparency, and a respect for the general levels of savvy about this form of entertainment in his customer base is a smart way to do that.
Hayduke
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Reply #199 on: October 18, 2008, 04:19:13 PM

It makes me want to cry when I hear people complain about the grind in T3/T4 when I can't even manage to get out of T2.  Maybe I'm too suggestible and should stop reading these boards, but I just don't feel like I'm enjoying the journey.  The PvE is really quite terrible, there's some great lore in it I'm sure but that stuff has never really interested me.  The scenarios are repetitive and while more rewarding from an xp and rp standpoint are still pretty horrible.  The ORvR when it happens is a blast though hard to find and often anti-climatic when there's too little participants on one side or the other, and of course you can't really advance that way.

I think if you can't make the content compelling you should at least make sure it's not a huge barrier to the 'real game'.  Which is one of the few things Shadowbane did right.  T1-T3 are meant to be important for the war as a whole I know, but you can always put in mechanisms later on for people to roll alts and stick them in those tiers.

BTW this thread was a great read.  I hope MJ comes around and toughs it out with Schild more often or at least tries WHA.  VNboards really is the cesspit of the MMO world (and yes I've been to the WoW forums).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 04:22:14 PM by Hayduke »
Howitzer
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Reply #200 on: October 18, 2008, 06:06:57 PM

It's why the concept of a no scenario server is appealing because that way you know you are playing with the people who only want to open RvR.

Mark

No god no, bad idea. And I hate scenarios. Reward with rewards, don't re-invent your game. Your playerbase is already to spread out both amongst servers and playstyles. Don't introduce DAoC Classic server solutions when you don't have a classic game to do so with. Look, players will go where the rewards are - why do you think my SM "Tronk" has run Mourkain Temple and now Tor Annoc 5,000 times? BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE GAME REWARDS - and that's where the people are. Don't make "NEW IMPROVED SERVERS" a month after launch, that's crazy. Reward people for doing what you want them to do for the good of the game. C'mon man, you know this shit cold, don't fold on this kind of problem.

LOL, not folding but I have to wonder if what we are seeing is a split between the DAoC/SB/etc. type of RvR player and the MMO newbie players who came from WoW.  I think it is entirely possible that these groups might have some issues being on the same server.  What I'm beginning to think is that a large percentage of the WoW players simply want to play in the same way that they play in WoW and may not be open to the true open RvR style.  I'm not saying we are going to do it but I have to ask myself if that is a possibility?  We are going to significantly up the rewards first but I also want to be prepared for the possibility that many of the players will love WAR as long as they can run scenarios as much as they want.

Do you think I'm really offbase about this?

Mark

Long-time reader. I barely ever post here Mark but you have got to hear me out on this.

I've played MMO's since UO.  I've played DAoC and quit a month after TOA and sadly never looked back.  I have played WOW from 2004 to 2008 and I played it being a member of one of the top 20 guilds in the World.  I left to play your game.  DO NOT SPLIT YOUR PLAYERBASE ON DIFFERENT SERVER RULESETS.  YOU WILL, (as someone else said), KILL YOUR GAME.  I came from WoW and I'm telling you that people left wow to play your game because its NOT wow.  Get it?

DON'T DO IT.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 06:57:55 PM by Howitzer »

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Howitzer
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Reply #201 on: October 18, 2008, 06:24:26 PM

Quote

Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios.  We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it. 

Mark

Mark, open your eyes a little.  Just because someone is "used" to something doesn't mean that is how it should be.  WOW's most beloved and successful "scenario" was Alterac Valley. Why? Because it was 40 vs 40, LARGE scale battle allowing whole guilds to queue up against one another across servers creating large competition. Of course, they screwed it up royally, but thats Blizzard for you.  They should have stuck to B.Net and Diablo if you ask me, (again, thats another story). 

Here is what I see that needs to be changed with your game Mr. Jacobs:

1) XP grind from 20-40 is just stupid-long.  Please end this.
2) Gear seems pointless, up the stats, do something with it.
3) Its clear to me that people join scenario queues because they can sit on their asses in 1 spot and instantly join the fight AND because its the best way to get renown, not just xp.  Do the same thing with RVR perhaps and notice the shift? (IN-ADDITION-TO all the XP boosts and rewards to ORVR)?
4) Too many small rvr lakes.  I have been searching for something like "Emain" or one huge RVR zone and haven't found it.  What the hell happened? Whats with all these little spots of battle-specific areas?  Do you know how bad that cuts immersion for me personally?  Lets say I fight on this side of the fence, punch you in the face, then jump on the other side and suddenly you can't fight back?  I realize there is a timer, but even with it, it doesn't make sense.  Entire zones need to be designated RVR areas. 
5) The higher-end gear is split up all over the place.  You want to promote RVR but pull people away from it to go do PVE and vice versa.  It creates quite a bit of chaos as it stands.

I recall in early DAOC when the entire realm would congregate at the gates to the RVR zone forming groups, guilds, alliances, etc... getting ready for a relic raid or major offensive on Emain or keep takeovers.  It was an absolute blast because you saw your whole realm there as one.  Here, I feel like everything is a mini-game so far.  I am failing to feel the epic glory of battle I felt before and I  believe that it is only because the rest of the population is stuck with their head in the sand doing some random scenario for the 500th time. That doesn't mean get rid of scenarios, it just means you need to get your team to change the way people prefer to do battle.

P.S. - Please do something about travel.  Its tedious to find flight paths to get to where I need to go quickly.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 07:02:44 PM by Howitzer »

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FatuousTwat
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Reply #202 on: October 18, 2008, 08:00:19 PM

I don't want to make it seem like I think my idea is OMG SOLID GOLD GENIUS!, but does anyone have an opinion on it?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 02:59:32 AM by FatuousTwat »

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #203 on: October 18, 2008, 08:37:49 PM

Man this thread takes forever to say, "Hey why the grind in the middle?"

I will say this: I stopped doing scenarios when I was coming up because it was just murderball popping, so I quested. I ran out of quests in all my orc places, so I went to the chaos place. Then I ran out of quests in Chaos and went to elf. I was in elf when I gave up at 24.

The xp on quests alone is just wrong. Like, not even close to getting me to the next tier of content in my lands wrong. You should have the option to advance through questing, advance through scenarios, or a combo of both. It shouldn't place undue influence on one particular form.

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Khaldun
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Reply #204 on: October 18, 2008, 08:51:18 PM

"Why the XP grind in the middle?"

Because they don't have confidence in their endgame. Which speaks volumes, given the emphasis in the design. If there's any game which should be able to sustain a quick trip to endgame, it's an RvR-centric game. If the developers are afraid of that, it tells you that they don't have anything special planned for endgame RvR, no objectives or items or anything, or worse yet, they do have something planned and it's *not ready*. So the middle grind is what you do when you're getting panicky about that before launch. And guys? It doesn't work. Don't you know that by now?  Isn't it obvious? Don't do it. You can't slow down the people determined to race to the end, no matter what you do. If there are problems, they'll spread the word. And in the meantime everyone who isn't a hardcore is hating the midgame slog.

Modern Angel
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Reply #205 on: October 18, 2008, 10:05:25 PM

1-20 of this game is the most perfect MMO experience I've ever had. All of this brings into stark relief just what WoW's biggest polish is: they have the pacing down to a science. I am absolutely convinced they have a team of QA timing and spreadsheeting every single quest and point of xp constantly for maximum effect. Nobody else does.

Change this.
Slayerik
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Reply #206 on: October 18, 2008, 10:23:03 PM

The more I read I keep thinking, why not make PVP games with a system more like Planetside?

You didn't have to grind to get to the fun. Time played gave you more options. It really was a good, fun concept. Some of the systems in place weren't great...but for about 6 months I played with a 'raiding outfit' and had an absolute blast. There was plenty wrong with the game, but anyone that got into it for a while has some fond memories of it.

Fuck the grind, period. Seriously. By now, we have all PAID OUR FUCKING DUES. Any real MMO guy has fought through horrible grinds to get to the endgame, now as soon as I start feeling it I just quit. When Burning Crusades came out, I made it to level 64. I had a sick amount of hours played before that and just realized...been here, done this....never came back.


"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Fordel
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Reply #207 on: October 18, 2008, 11:14:38 PM

It's been said already, but the leveling in WAR should have just been a 'tutorial' for the real game. Sorta like how GuildWars does it now. 1-20 in Guild Wars is like... a Saturday afternoon if you're really motivated and it's all designed to ease you into the "real" game at the end.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Morfiend
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Reply #208 on: October 18, 2008, 11:25:55 PM

What I really don't understand is that DAoC had those fantastic battlegrounds, that had one mini keep and let people level up doing mini-rvr. Then when some one in this thread suggested some thing like that, Mark reacted as if it was a totally new idea.

It boggles my mind that WAR didn't have something like this. At least like one per tier.
Soln
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Reply #209 on: October 18, 2008, 11:31:22 PM

Someone should PM Mark with this irony -- WoW has been unplayable every night since 10/15 for many people, including myself and my wife.  Latency, db item loss, many "preventable" things because of the 3.0.2 patch that just went live in support of WotLK.

mod post on state of many servers: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11296564495&sid=1
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