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Author Topic: State of The Game - Mark Jacobs  (Read 260535 times)
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #140 on: October 18, 2008, 02:24:47 AM

Actually, if you're even in theoretical 100% agreement that would be at the very least the tiniest glimmer of hope. But you've brought up the No-Scenario server more than once in this thread alone (which was once too many as we lolled about it in another thread). It's totally not a solution.

I don't think any of it is simple. In the least.

But you still, even in that response, haven't addressed the simple fact that PvE is the best way to get loot, scenarios are the best way to get experience, and RvR is too fragmented. I mean, comeon friendo, you're killing me here. Even if you boost RvR by 300%, the diminishing returns on multiple kills due to the tiers being so removed from eachother is going to kill that fast. And it would basically require that euros and such on US servers play during our peak hours.

RvR is awesome. You're right. Scenarios are pretty great too! PvE could be pretty great if it wasn't so mind-numbingly non-rewarding. Fuck yea I'm pissed off. I did Tor Anroc some odd 200 times to get from 23-32. The fact I'm here arguing should tell you you're on the right path, I've already lasted here longer than any MMOG in the last oh, 5 years. But there are things at stake here, most notably the player base as the clock is ticking on Wrath and you keep referring to WoW players wanting a specific type of game. I'm not even sure Blizzard knows what they want. AFAIK most of those people are there because of the community, because that game is just not very good - it's just very polished. Obviously WAR isn't there yet, but you excel in other areas and unfortunately it seems like the steps being taken are... short-sighted.

First, I'm glad to know that you realize how complicated changing things is.  Just so you know, I've already had this exact same conversation with the key guys twice in the last week.  And when I talk about baby steps or doing things slowly it is precisely because I know WotLK is coming.  If we jump the gun (or jump the shark) now, it will be hard to get people to come back even after the ice melts.  OTOH, if we take a little longer, make the right changes and don't FIU, then people will either stay and play both or leave and then come back.  But, if we FUBAR, they won't.  Ask yourself this, if you were me, would you take a long-term approach to this game's success or a short-term?  If it's the long-term, well, you would look at everything carefully.  You would take safer steps while you plan out the bigger steps.  You would spend more time polishing key things and have more surprises in the wings.  You would do everything you could to keep the game going nicely but expect the worst and be ready for it.  If you take a short-term approach, you would immediately rush to action like the world is coming to an end.  You would too quickly nerf and add just to keep players happy because you believe that they are right and you didn't gather enough evidence because you didn't have the tools or the time.  You'd make all sorts of promises that you believe in and hope you can deliver but then reality rears its ugly head.  You'd spend a ton of time trolling the forums and spending way too much time listening to what is said there and make other changes accordingly.  You'd be looking for the modern equivalent of bread and circuses.

Now, which sounds like a better plan?  And which sounds more like 2001?

Mark
Sjofn
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Truckasaurus Hands


Reply #141 on: October 18, 2008, 02:26:58 AM

If I were you, I'd have official forums.  awesome, for real

God Save the Horn Players
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #142 on: October 18, 2008, 02:27:42 AM

If I were you, I'd have official forums.  awesome, for real

FAK YOU BIATCH. THIS LEGANDARY THRED NOW.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54452


WWW
Reply #143 on: October 18, 2008, 02:28:38 AM

There are some things, problems that is, with the game that are patently obvious that you could increase in say, as you said, 2 days.

Seriously, go look at T3 and T4 quests. Why haven't those been increased in value by 3-400%? Is there any reason at all?

Why haven't - at the very least - set items been reitemized to be in line with the classes they support. I don't want intelligence or wisdom on my damned shadow warrior - and it's not just a localized issue to that class. It's _EVERY_ class. There really aren't that many set items.

Why hasn't the amount of loot in RvR lakes and Scenarios been doubled or triples?

Simple things man, keep that loot slot machine going. Keep people PvPing. Make the RvR the best thing during peak hours. Make the scenarios the best thing during off-peak hours. Hell, if you have to shut down Scenarios from 5-8PM eastern, I'd even understand that move. It would ALMOST make sense. Actually, now that I think about it, it kinda does.

We're talking simple numerical changes to exp across the board though. Because right now, it is like 2003, and I'm playing City of Heroes and getting bugfuck insane about it.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #144 on: October 18, 2008, 02:30:59 AM

It's not that you can't entertain ideas, but you have to be OK with people rejecting an idea, even if it is your very favoritest one.

Reject away.  All I ever said was that I put it out there (VN) for people to consider and I talked about it here as a *possibility* and nothing more.  Where did I take anyone to task for rejecting the idea?  All I've said is that I want to consider the possibility that even if we boost things like crazy, it still may not bring people out of the scenarios.  Somehow, that got translated into me trying to convince you/people that it was my favorite idea and that I wanted to do it.  

If I have the right to entertain ideas and share them and you have the right to reject them then shouldn't I also have the right to defend/explain them without people thinking that a) I want to do that; b) I don't see how the idea could be a bad one; c) that I think you're wrong simply because I'm making a counter-argument.

Mark
Fordel
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Posts: 8292


Reply #145 on: October 18, 2008, 02:32:03 AM

Really, how many MMO's have Crashed and Burned because "OH LORD I CAN LEVEL TOO FAST AND HAVE FUN!" ?


Seriously, when has that ever happened?


Like Ever?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
schild
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Reply #146 on: October 18, 2008, 02:33:52 AM

I've said it countless times in this forum, Scenarios up to tier 4 should've been the training wheels. They should mimic - and you agreed earlier - real RvR. Get people excited about Tier 4 RvR. Now, I still think at least one scenario should be necessary in Tier 4, but perhaps there's a better way to get around that. For example - and I'm just throwing shit against the wall here - when you click the scenario button in tier 4, it isn't actually a scenario button. Designate maybe, a new RvR area that effects the entire region, with a bunch of BOs and maybe a keep in the middle or something - and when you click that button, it takes you to that RvR lake. Or maybe the most populated RvR lake.

Long term wise, steps need to be taken to BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

Short term, move the decimal point on the goddamn EXP gain.
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #147 on: October 18, 2008, 02:34:01 AM

Really, how many MMO's have Crashed and Burned because "OH LORD I CAN LEVEL TOO FAST AND HAVE FUN!" ?


Seriously, when has that ever happened?


Like Ever?

I think all our other arguments have been made and really this is a big one. WE WANT TO MAKE WAR! Let us.

Sincerely
F13

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54452


WWW
Reply #148 on: October 18, 2008, 02:36:19 AM

Stop saying We Want to Make War. That's not really the point. The point here is to alleviate the mind-numbingness. I agree with Mark, kneejerk chanages to the WAR structure would result in an absolute clusterfuck. But keeping people around with proper rewards/slick-as-hell-level-advancement (as in supa fast) and a working skinner box will let them implement those long term stages.
Sjofn
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Truckasaurus Hands


Reply #149 on: October 18, 2008, 02:36:27 AM

I wasn't aware saying, "No seriously, don't you think no scenario servers would help?" was really an explanation, exactly. Just restating the same thing ("C'mon, at least KINDA admit no-scenario servers could help!!!!") does, indeed, make it seem like you aren't listening at all. If you can see the issues with the idea, you might want to mention them in your defense, and say what benefits there would be to, you know, balance those. People have brought up a LOT of reasons it would be a bad idea, you have not really "defended" why it isn't besides "It's hard. :("

'Course, it's REALLY LATE now. Maybe it's time for bed. At least for me.

God Save the Horn Players
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #150 on: October 18, 2008, 02:39:25 AM

There are some things, problems that is, with the game that are patently obvious that you could increase in say, as you said, 2 days.

....

Simple things man, keep that loot slot machine going. Keep people PvPing. Make the RvR the best thing during peak hours. Make the scenarios the best thing during off-peak hours. Hell, if you have to shut down Scenarios from 5-8PM eastern, I'd even understand that move. It would ALMOST make sense. Actually, now that I think about it, it kinda does.

We're talking simple numerical changes to exp across the board though. Because right now, it is like 2003, and I'm playing City of Heroes and getting bugfuck insane about it.

>>>>Seriously, go look at T3 and T4 quests. Why haven't those been increased in value by 3-400%? Is there any reason at all?
Well, let's start with the fact that we have more than a few quests.  So we would have to either review them all individually or simply say all quest experience is upped by a certain percentage.  And, we have always spoken about the amount of time it would take to level and, on *most* servers, most players are leveling exactly as quickly as we said they would.  Some servers are different and that's what we are trying to pin down.  Also, we've found a disparity in some of the T3/T4 quests based on location as well.  I wish it was as simple as you think it is. We've got reports from all of our servers with graphs showing the exact amount of time that people have spent doing rvr, pve, pqs, etc. and how long it took them to level.  There is a wide disparity on the servers and we are looking at that.

>>>>Why haven't - at the very least - set items been reitemized to be in line with the classes they support. I don't want intelligence or wisdom on my damned shadow warrior - and it's not just a localized issue to that class. It's _EVERY_ class. There really aren't that many set items.
You really don't think the team thought they did that.  Of course they did and they are trying to figure out what went wrong.

>>>>Why hasn't the amount of loot in RvR lakes and Scenarios been doubled or triples?
Again, we're looking at doing that but you can't just snap your fingers and say 2X and its done.

Mark
Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8292


Reply #151 on: October 18, 2008, 02:42:58 AM

I wanna dub it, CoH Syndrome.

"I want to enjoy your game, but you make it so fucking hard!"

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #152 on: October 18, 2008, 02:43:12 AM

Stop saying We Want to Make War. That's not really the point. The point here is to alleviate the mind-numbingness. I agree with Mark, kneejerk chanages to the WAR structure would result in an absolute clusterfuck. But keeping people around with proper rewards/slick-as-hell-level-advancement (as in supa fast) and a working skinner box will let them implement those long term stages.

Actually yeah dude it is the point. It's a fucking game. RAR. We do want to make war, or at least I do. I don't fucking care how many douchebag liners WoTLK has supplied to make they're game smooth. I really couldn't care less. I'm not asking for knee-jerk changes to anything, but you know all the promotions with the whole "War is Everywhere" shit? Yeah, ok, where the fuck is it? You and I are in agreement on this but yes, I DO WANT TO MAKE WAR. FOR ME THAT"S THE FUCKING POINT.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
schild
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Reply #153 on: October 18, 2008, 02:46:05 AM

For every person that quested to level 40 quickly, I'm pretty sure I can point you at 10 people that AoE grinded to 40. I find it hard to believe that those numbers aren't lying there.

Point being, the PvE isn't fun. We can talk about cluster density and player progression and how fast it goes, but PvE in this game really does boil down to, press strongest attack, repeat. You could increase it a thousand% across the board and honestly, I'd probably still be banging my head against the wall if I had to do it. Hell, if you made it so that every single little town/hovel gave me at least 1 level from quests that all took me to the same location, I'd still be like WHY THE HELL AM I DOING THIS. To which I'd response "Oh, right, it's offpeak hours" and then a moment later I'd think "Well, at least it's going fast."

As Fordel said, leveling too fast has never killed an MMOG. And he's right. I think maybe, perhaps, you missed the part where I said Player Rank 1-40 should've been the tutorial whereas renown shouldn't be changed. As I've said, no one minds a grind, but the grind has to have meaning. 1-40 is a grind for the sake of grind, the proof is in what you just said:

Quote
And, we have always spoken about the amount of time it would take to level and, on *most* servers, most players are leveling exactly as quickly as we said they would.

/snoresville on that man. It rips me apart to read shit like that. This isn't a PvE game. What's it going to hurt if the entire playerbase is level 40?

This is where I'd normally go into a diatribe about this game even having levels being a cop-out design decision, but no, that's not my style tonight. Because I'm exhausted. Suffice it to say, I have 40-50 hours logged on my character. I am VERY good at PvP and I'm not level 40 year because I didn't abuse an AoE grind/exploit, I refuse to take part in T4 questing now, and there's no RvR to speak of because it's either join the zerg and get no reward at T4 or do scenarios and questing. And scenarios just ain't popping outside of select hours.

Out of curiosity, have you done the check on people who canceled their sub for the second month? What percentage of them hit 40? I'm guessing somewhere between 0% and 5% and only because they're broke from the economy kicking them right in the ponch.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #154 on: October 18, 2008, 02:47:21 AM

I wasn't aware saying, "No seriously, don't you think no scenario servers would help?" was really an explanation, exactly. Just restating the same thing ("C'mon, at least KINDA admit no-scenario servers could help!!!!") does, indeed, make it seem like you aren't listening at all. If you can see the issues with the idea, you might want to mention them in your defense, and say what benefits there would be to, you know, balance those. People have brought up a LOT of reasons it would be a bad idea, you have not really "defended" why it isn't besides "It's hard. :("

'Course, it's REALLY LATE now. Maybe it's time for bed. At least for me.

My defense was this:

What if we do all the things that people here want (other than cutting scenario exp/renown) and players still won't leave the scenarios.  If this is the case, wouldn't having a scenario-free server work for those players who want non-stop RvR action?


And I've said the same thing more than once.  Again, it's very early now as it past late 3 hours ago, but all I've said and said and said was that *if* we are wrong about the WoWheads and they don't want to move out of scenarios and at the same time we care about our open RvR players, would a no scenario server work?  Nothing more complicated than that.  Because really, if we do everything people think is a great idea and people don't move we only have a limited set of choices:

1) Force them to move out by cutting scenarios at certain levels (tiered)

2) Cut experience/renown from scenarios

3) Try something different like no-scenario server

4) Do nothing


I don't like 2 at all, I truly hate 4, 1 is a possibility and 3 was the no-scenario server or something else like that.  Did I miss anything?

Mark
Mark
schild
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Reply #155 on: October 18, 2008, 02:49:59 AM

Uhhhhh, yea, you missed choices 5 and 6.

5) Increase RvR to the point that scenarios are something you do during offpeak hours.

6) Figure out a way to make sure everyone in any tier knows exactly which RvR zone to go to and offer an instant button-press to get there.

I'm sorry, but some things just have to have the training wheels slapped on them so that people can skip the bullshit (this includes walking across a zone to a damned warcamp).
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #156 on: October 18, 2008, 02:50:39 AM

For every person that quested to level 40 quickly, I'm pretty sure I can point you at 10 people that AoE grinded to 40. I find it hard to believe that those numbers aren't lying there.

Point being, the PvE isn't fun. We can talk about cluster density and player progression and how fast it goes, but PvE in this game really does boil down to, press strongest attack, repeat. You could increase it a thousand% across the board and honestly, I'd probably still be banging my head against the wall if I had to do it. Hell, if you made it so that every single little town/hovel gave me at least 1 level from quests that all took me to the same location, I'd still be like WHY THE HELL AM I DOING THIS. To which I'd response "Oh, right, it's offpeak hours" and then a moment later I'd think "Well, at least it's going fast."

As Fordel said, leveling too fast has never killed an MMOG. And he's right. I think maybe, perhaps, you missed the part where I said Player Rank 1-40 should've been the tutorial whereas renown shouldn't be changed. As I've said, no one minds a grind, but the grind has to have meaning. 1-40 is a grind for the sake of grind, the proof is in what you just said:

Quote
And, we have always spoken about the amount of time it would take to level and, on *most* servers, most players are leveling exactly as quickly as we said they would.

/snoresville on that man. It rips me apart to read shit like that. This isn't a PvE game. What's it going to hurt if the entire playerbase is level 40?

This is where I'd normally go into a diatribe about this game even having levels being a cop-out design decision, but no, that's not my style tonight. Because I'm exhausted. Suffice it to say, I have 40-50 hours logged on my character. I am VERY good at PvP and I'm not level 40 year because I didn't abuse an AoE grind/exploit, I refuse to take part in T4 questing now, and there's no RvR to speak of because it's either join the zerg and get no reward at T4 or do scenarios and questing. And scenarios just ain't popping outside of select hours.

Out of curiosity, have you done the check on people who canceled their sub for the second month? What percentage of them hit 40? I'm guessing somewhere between 0% and 5% and only because they're broke from the economy kicking them right in the ponch.

I can say, without any fear of contradiction or of EA's Investor Relations folks, that I don't know of a single cancellation right now because we just started billing this morning and I don't have the report yet. :)

Mark
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #157 on: October 18, 2008, 02:51:52 AM


My defense was this:

What if we do all the things that people here want (other than cutting scenario exp/renown) and players still won't leave the scenarios.  If this is the case, wouldn't having a scenario-free server work for those players who want non-stop RvR action?


And I've said the same thing more than once.  Again, it's very early now as it past late 3 hours ago, but all I've said and said and said was that *if* we are wrong about the WoWheads and they don't want to move out of scenarios and at the same time we care about our open RvR players, would a no scenario server work?  Nothing more complicated than that.  Because really, if we do everything people think is a great idea and people don't move we only have a limited set of choices:

1) Force them to move out by cutting scenarios at certain levels (tiered)

2) Cut experience/renown from scenarios

3) Try something different like no-scenario server

4) Do nothing


I don't like 2 at all, I truly hate 4, 1 is a possibility and 3 was the no-scenario server or something else like that.  Did I miss anything?

Mark
Mark

Umm yeah. Do 2 with some 1. as is reasonable . Seriously WTF? Are you having an issue with changing the carrot/stick ratio? Players will help those folks find rewards you know. Or are you just afraid? I just don't get it. Assuming accompanying increases in RvR...

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #158 on: October 18, 2008, 02:53:02 AM

Uhhhhh, yea, you missed choices 5 and 6.

5) Increase RvR to the point that scenarios are something you do during offpeak hours.

6) Figure out a way to make sure everyone in any tier knows exactly which RvR zone to go to and offer an instant button-press to get there.

I'm sorry, but some things just have to have the training wheels slapped on them so that people can skip the bullshit (this includes walking across a zone to a damned warcamp).

As to (5), I've already said huge gains for open RvR.  But there's no magic number unless you want me to say "If you do RvR you'll level instantly!" We want RvR leveling to be as fast, if not faster, than PvE.  Yes, I know it's not there yet but that's the goal.

As to (6), that's on my list already and falls under the things we need to do heading.

Mark
schild
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Posts: 54452


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Reply #159 on: October 18, 2008, 02:54:45 AM

Squirrel,

I can tell you right the f now. You never, ever ever ever cut rewards/exp from something when unnecessary. And here it's quite unnecessary. There's WAY MORE than enough wiggle room to get players into RvR. Scenarios aren't THAT lucrative, saying they're the most lucrative place for exp is a misnomer since the exp is still shit.

The first thing I'd cut? That diminishing return bullshit on characters who have been killed recently. Who gives a shit if a guild organizes with another to let them get pwned over and over and be farmed. Great, more people that get to 40 faster! I don't understand this FEAR of everyone in the game being at 40. Hell, the thing is specifically designed to have everyone at 40. /snarl
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #160 on: October 18, 2008, 02:55:07 AM

Uhhhhh, yea, you missed choices 5 and 6.

5) Increase RvR to the point that scenarios are something you do during offpeak hours.

6) Figure out a way to make sure everyone in any tier knows exactly which RvR zone to go to and offer an instant button-press to get there.

I'm sorry, but some things just have to have the training wheels slapped on them so that people can skip the bullshit (this includes walking across a zone to a damned warcamp).

As to (5), I've already said huge gains for open RvR.  But there's no magic number unless you want me to say "If you do RvR you'll level instantly!" We want RvR leveling to be as fast, if not faster, than PvE.  Yes, I know it's not there yet but that's the goal.

As to (6), that's on my list already and falls under the things we need to do heading.

Mark

Once you do (5) that will be huge. I know there's no magic number but that will be huge - particularly once people experience it first-hand.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
FatuousTwat
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2223


Reply #161 on: October 18, 2008, 02:55:34 AM

The only thing that kept me from buying this game at release was my worries over the t3/4 grind. It was why I quit the beta as well.

Perhaps I've just been trained too well, and was searching out the grind myself, instead of trying to find alternate ways of leveling. I'm not playing ATM, so I can't say for sure.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54452


WWW
Reply #162 on: October 18, 2008, 02:56:06 AM

Good to hear about #6. Also, making RvR faster than PvE is kinda laughable, as I've said the PvE here is slow like CoH slow. When you say fast, do you mean like 50x faster or like 2x faster? Because the latter we pretty much got with the 20% gain and that was like 20% on top of zero.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #163 on: October 18, 2008, 02:57:02 AM


My defense was this:

What if we do all the things that people here want (other than cutting scenario exp/renown) and players still won't leave the scenarios.  If this is the case, wouldn't having a scenario-free server work for those players who want non-stop RvR action?


And I've said the same thing more than once.  Again, it's very early now as it past late 3 hours ago, but all I've said and said and said was that *if* we are wrong about the WoWheads and they don't want to move out of scenarios and at the same time we care about our open RvR players, would a no scenario server work?  Nothing more complicated than that.  Because really, if we do everything people think is a great idea and people don't move we only have a limited set of choices:

1) Force them to move out by cutting scenarios at certain levels (tiered)

2) Cut experience/renown from scenarios

3) Try something different like no-scenario server

4) Do nothing


I don't like 2 at all, I truly hate 4, 1 is a possibility and 3 was the no-scenario server or something else like that.  Did I miss anything?

Mark
Mark

Umm yeah. Do 2 with some 1. as is reasonable . Seriously WTF? Are you having an issue with changing the carrot/stick ratio? Players will help those folks find rewards you know. Or are you just afraid? I just don't get it. Assuming accompanying increases in RvR...

You really think that cutting scenario exp/renown gain right now and forcing people to open RvR would be a good business decision?  Sorry, got to really disagree here.  I prefer buffing up open RvR (which will still be met with cries of NERF) versus changing the way the vast majority of people play the game overnight by cutting things away from them.  

Mark
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #164 on: October 18, 2008, 02:57:17 AM

Squirrel,

I can tell you right the f now. You never, ever ever ever cut rewards/exp from something when unnecessary. And here it's quite unnecessary. There's WAY MORE than enough wiggle room to get players into RvR. Scenarios aren't THAT lucrative, saying they're the most lucrative place for exp is a misnomer since the exp is still shit.

The first thing I'd cut? That diminishing return bullshit on characters who have been killed recently. Who gives a shit if a guild organizes with another to let them get pwned over and over and be farmed. Great, more people that get to 40 faster! I don't understand this FEAR of everyone in the game being at 40. Hell, the thing is specifically designed to have everyone at 40. /snarl

You're probably right, I know I'd hate that. MAKE THEM FIND THE WRIGGLE ROOM THEN. K?

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1765


Reply #165 on: October 18, 2008, 02:58:41 AM



You really think that cutting scenario exp/renown gain right now and forcing people to open RvR would be a good business decision?  Sorry, got to really disagree here.  I prefer buffing up open RvR (which will still be met with cries of NERF) versus changing the way the vast majority of people play the game overnight by cutting things away from them.  

Mark

No I don't. My prior opinions stand, but yah, cutting xp/rr now is a bad idea.

Yeah it's late - i have to retract that idea. But all my other ones were awesome for real. Honest!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 03:02:32 AM by squirrel »

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #166 on: October 18, 2008, 03:03:07 AM

Good to hear about #6. Also, making RvR faster than PvE is kinda laughable, as I've said the PvE here is slow like CoH slow. When you say fast, do you mean like 50x faster or like 2x faster? Because the latter we pretty much got with the 20% gain and that was like 20% on top of zero.

I don't know what the number is right now.  Here's one damn thing I would change, I would make this game have 70 levels and keep dinging all the way, all the time.  I do think that some of the problem is the fact that people think 40 < 60 when it comes to levels and that the grinding seems worse because you have only 40 levels to go to max out.  I'm not saying you guys feel that way but I do think, at some level, it is having an effect on some people.  I've played a ton of MMOs and, at least according to the spreadsheet the time to solo most toons is faster here (on paper, I know) than EQ, DAoC, WoW when they launched.  Again, I'm not, not saying working as intended (I hate that phrase) but when we set out the number originally it was still less than those games and I cut that number down even more about 6 months ago.

Mark
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #167 on: October 18, 2008, 03:05:44 AM



You really think that cutting scenario exp/renown gain right now and forcing people to open RvR would be a good business decision?  Sorry, got to really disagree here.  I prefer buffing up open RvR (which will still be met with cries of NERF) versus changing the way the vast majority of people play the game overnight by cutting things away from them.  

Mark

No I don't. My prior opinions stand, but yah, cutting xp/rr now is a bad idea.

Yeah it's late - i have to retract that idea. But all my other ones were awesome for real. Honest!

LOL.  Well, it looks like things are settling down now.  It was quite a good thread for a while, wasn't it?

Mark
Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8292


Reply #168 on: October 18, 2008, 03:06:02 AM

Quote
2) Cut experience/renown from scenarios



Who the shit is saying this?

"Please make the scenarios shittier, while not improving the other parts of the game?"

No one wants that. Other then the professed crazies.  why so serious?


Quote
What if we do all the things that people here want (other than cutting scenario exp/renown) and players still won't leave the scenarios.  If this is the case, wouldn't having a scenario-free server work for those players who want non-stop RvR action?

No, that wouldn't work, because even the most Die Hard RvR-Fanatics need non-RvR downtime. So now you've locked away your RvR player base in a all or nothing situation with no middle ground, the middle ground provided by scenario PvP. You've also alienated your mythical scenario only player base into thinking they are 'doing it wrong'.

You know what was one of DaoC's greatest strengths? The ability to go "fuck, I'm tired of this shit, I just want to gank a noob" and run off to a low level BG for half an hour or so, or to do some quests, or run your guilds newbies through Muire Tomb so the mobs pathing through the floor wouldn't kill them.

Making a "RvR-Only" server, just removes an option, an option a RvR player would enjoy. It isn't a fucking "OR" question here. People want to do both. The entire issue people are having is the RvR option IS NOT an option for most players. Replacing a non-option with another non-option is not a fix. It's not even a band-aid.

There is no such thing as non-stop RvR action. It would be rad if it existed, but people need to sleep/eat/work/postonMMORPGforums  Ohhhhh, I see.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54452


WWW
Reply #169 on: October 18, 2008, 03:07:44 AM

It'll be a good thread when I can log into the game and not see that i have  600k experience to gain for the next level with 7 levels left to go to 40 before I can even start caring about RR and seeing a quest that makes me walk 10 goddamn minutes and kill some shitty mobs for 5k exp staring at me because Serpent's Pass won't pop and the RvR zones are just sitting there being red on my map.

I think that probably sums up the T3/T4 experience for most people, except that Tor Anroc pops.
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #170 on: October 18, 2008, 03:08:40 AM

I prefer buffing up open RvR (which will still be met with cries of NERF) versus changing the way the vast majority of people play the game overnight by cutting things away from them.  


Can you make the launch client window larger highlighting the latest improvements?  It's great adding extra incentives to encourage people to open RVR, but it's only going to help if they know about it.

Also on server population balance, I'd put a T4 only quest item drop on the final keep lord before a city attack.  Make it an item that you can mail to an alt on the same account that makes them permanently gain exp at twice the normal rate.  That encourages people to make alts.  

For order players on servers where they are outnumbered, have an extra item that give them an invite a friend code that will allow the friend to play order on that server with the double exp bonus.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54452


WWW
Reply #171 on: October 18, 2008, 03:10:25 AM

Quote
Also on server population balance, I'd put a T4 only quest item drop on the final keep lord before a city attack.  Make it an item that you can mail to an alt on the same account that makes them permanently gain exp at twice the normal rate.  That encourages people to make alts. 

Lol.

It's more reasonable for you to simply gain EXP at double the rate on any alt once you hit T4 at all. Mythic/Mark should not be afraid of having an entire playerbase at Tier 4 and going toe to toe in RvR (if they can find eachother - tee-hee).
schild
Administrator
Posts: 54452


WWW
Reply #172 on: October 18, 2008, 03:12:02 AM

I'm not frothy anymore. Fox just ordered a full season of Sarah Connor chronicles. That said, my description of t3/t4 above still stands. That's seriously how it feels mark and it's terrible.
Evildrider
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5521


Reply #173 on: October 18, 2008, 03:12:22 AM

Open RvR is fun, but there's no way thats going to be fun 100% of the time.  XP rewards being upped will help alot in this area though.  However for as much T4 open RvR I've been doing lately there are just some things that make it totally unfun.. that being attackers being able to exploit their way into keeps without breaking down the keep doors and using abilities to pull attackers into keeps and then nuking them.  Those are the main two.  

Scenarios, there just needs to be a cut down on the total number of them and some rework of some of the maps.  Deathmatch/ffa maps would be an awesome addition with less of the whole ctf/objective play.  I personally love doing scenarios, the maps aren't always the best but hell I liked Tor Anroc.  It was just too big of a map.

PvE isn't necessary but you still have to have it in there, just let it be worth more xp and give better rewards.  It shouldn't be absolute top shelf rewards.. leave that to RvR drops and reknown gear.  i don't see how people can say the PvE is worse then WoW's because imo it's pretty much the exact same thing.  The xp rewards need to be tweaked a bit but i don't see this game being CoX grindy.  I've managed to do pretty well xp wise in T4 with supplemented scenarios and open RvR.  I'll pretty much be at one week played when I hit 40 and that's not too bad imo.  The RR levels are going to be alot more of a pain though.
apocrypha
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6686

Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!


Reply #174 on: October 18, 2008, 03:12:53 AM

I think you're spending too much time getting drawn into internet arguments Mark.

Whether it's sniping between you and some Blizzard dudes or debating with the crazies here I don't think it's a good use of your time right now. The things you've been saying online over the last few days make you sound stressed, defensive and a bit desperate. Please don't take that personally, it's just my opinion. Turn off the computers, go and take a shower, have a meal with your family, go for a walk, get all of this shit out of your head and devote your energies to the game, not to fighting with a bunch of cranky internet nerds (even if they happen to be COO's of your competitors).

Also, stop referring to trolls. Anywhere. Sure, there may be people who don't care what they're posting just cos they like getting a rise out of you, but I'd guess that 95% of the posts that you think of as trolling posts are just frustrated players expressing themselves in the language of the medium - i.e. not very eloquently and dressed up in internet-forum hostility dialect. By taking time to specifically label them as trolls it makes it sound like you have contempt for their feelings. And even if that's true, letting people know it is a very bad idea. Behind every "troll" is a pissed-off player or almost-player, neither of which you want to drive away.

Again, just thoughts from another internet nerd. Don't take anything anyone says on the internet personally, even when it's, you know, a personal attack.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
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