f13.net

Folks,

   After over three years of work and one of the smoothest launches in MMORPG history, WAR is moving quickly towards the end of its first month.  This is a perfect time to take a look at where we were, where we are and where we are going.  First, on behalf of everyone at Mythic, I would like to thank you for your interest in our game.  While it is impossible for me to personally thank all 750K+ worldwide account holders, please know that we are grateful for your support to date and the support we hope you will show us in the future.  It’s been a long road to get where we are today but it has been a worthwhile journey.  While I might be tempted to say that the future’s so bright we have to wear shades, as you’ve seen from our podcasts, we’ll even wear those indoors. 

    So, as to where we are today, WAR is doing fabulously.  We are one of, if not the, fastest selling MMORPG out of the blocks and we are also one of the most highly rated MMORPGs of all time.  While the game is off to a great start, we still have a long way to go before we can declare WAR a major long-term success.  That success will only come by being focused on making a great game even better. How we are going to accomplish this begins with our first major patch (1.1), the subject of this State of the Game message.  While WAR is truly a glorious MMORPG, it is not perfect and over the last month our primary focus has been to correct bugs and tweak a few things here and there.  We’ve stayed away from major feature or career changes until we’ve had plenty of time to gather and analyze the data from our players.  Having done that, we can now move on to what we are going to do over the next couple of months, culminating with the release of patch 1.1 later this Fall.

  Let’s start with what we know is some truly exciting news.  I’m happy to announce that in December, the Black Guard and the Knight of the Blazing Sun will officially be part of WAR.  We have very special plans around their appearance and in our next newsletter we will provide full details about that exciting and rather novel event.  When they were cut from the game launch plans earlier this year, I said that the Black Guard and the Knight would be part of WAR only when they were great and deserved their place alongside all of WAR’s other compelling classes.  I also said that we would not charge any additional fees for this new content or put it in a separate expansion pack; that’s not how we operate.  We’ve kept to that plan and with the introduction of these two classes, Mythic shows that once again we are happy to keep giving players more value for their subscription dollars than any other MMORPG developer.

    Creating an MMORPG, especially an RvR-focused MMORPG, which runs perfectly on all types of PCs, is one of the most challenging technical aspects of game development.  While the performance of WAR is great on most higher spec machines, we know that we can improve its performance on lower spec machines.  We’ve been working non-stop to improve that performance and we’ve got a number of things going into the game between now and 1.1 that we expect will help to address everything from crashes to desktops (CTDs) to stuttering.  We have a number of other client changes that will improve things such as propagation and ghosting.

    Thanks in part to WAR’s success; our mail system that worked well in Beta has been straining to keep up with the heavy demand placed on it.  It’s functional and it works, but it can also be slow and cumbersome to use.  In all fairness to the team, the system’s problems have been magnified by the demand of having so many servers and players using it at the same time.  That’s not an excuse though and we are working hard on deploying a substantially improved mail system for this patch. We will continue to enhance WAR’s mail system until it is one of the best mail systems found in any MMORPG.

    Moving on to some more good news for our RvR players; we have brought additional resources to bear on, and augment, our RvR gear and overall itemization.  In 1.1 (and beyond) we will be doing a myriad of things for our RvR players, including improving gear drops, increasing drop rates, and implementing an RvR-influence system to compliment the current PvE-influence system.  We will also be giving players more incentive to engage in open RvR by improving the rewards for both assaulting and defending in RvR.  WAR is an RvR-centric game and we will continue to do whatever is necessary to encourage people to join in RvR and reward them when they do so.

   Other changes for 1.1 include major additions to the chat system (item linking and more) as well as continued work on our targeting system, including adding Main Assist and Target of Target.  In addition to the server balancing methods that have worked so well over the last week, we will also be offering the first server transfers to our players to continue to help even out the server populations.  These transfers will be free of charge but they will be limited to moves off high-population servers to select mid-population servers or off of low-population servers to a selection of mid-population servers. Much like we are doing now, we will select certain mid-population servers and let people transfer there.  Once they reach a certain population level, we’ll remove them from the list and give their spot to another server.  We will publish the list ahead of time so players can plan their moves accordingly.

   While that might seem like a lot for a month, we’re not done yet! We’ll also be adding more exciting content to the game, including fourteen entirely new quest chains, two new Lairs, and many more Tome of Knowledge unlocks!  This is only the first of what will be our ongoing content updates to WAR and it is a great start.

   So, that about wraps it up for this first annual State of the Game, so without further ado…

   Okay, so I was joking, we’re still not done.  Over the last month the team has been looking at all the careers and building up a list of issues/concerns to address.  Almost every career is going to see some changes and love coming their way and there are very, very few changes that will be seen as reductions to a career’s abilities.  The Combat and Careers team has spent the last month looking at the changes that they want to make with an eye towards making improvements and buffs, not removing or weakening abilities.  I won’t go into details here but the vast majority of careers all have nothing but love coming their way.  Of course, we will continue to monitor and track all the class data so expect, like every other MMORPG, changes to the careers to be an ongoing process.

   Well, that just about wraps my first WAR State of the Game and I hope that it has given you some insight into what we are going to be doing over the next month or so.  This is by no means a comprehensive list of everything we are working on and I won’t go anywhere near talking about general bug fixes.  The items mentioned above are just some of the highlights of our first major patch and I hope you agree that there is a ton of good stuff coming down the pipeline.

As required by lawyers everywhere, here’s the usual disclaimer that this letter is a guide to what we hope to include in this upcoming patch and not a guarantee of any kind. We are working on many things right now and my letters, as always, are just the tip of the iceberg.  Fellow WARriors, we have a lot more big surprises coming your way that I will address in my next State of the Game message and it’s going to be a doozie.

Once again, I thank you for your support, patronage and interest in WAR.

Mark Jacobs

VP, GM Mythic Entertainment

Good to hear that the missing tanks will be coming back sooner than later and that itemization is going to be addressed. Amusing that he accidentally (?) called it "first annual State of the Game" - or is that accurate given Mythic's legendary disdain for communication?

These transfers will be free of charge but they will be limited to moves off high-population servers to select mid-population servers or off of low-population servers to a selection of mid-population servers.

Doesn't moving off of low pop servers seem like an idea that will make those low pop servers even worse? Unless, of course, they really mean server merges. Curious.

In all fairness to the team, the system’s problems have been magnified by the demand of having so many servers and players using it at the same time.

But shouldn't everyone just be moved from High to low instead of medium? If you're going to offer moves off of low servers, you might as well just close those servers and forcibly move those communities onto medium servers, because if the lows are ghost towns NOW, wait until 1/4 of the meager population moves off of them.

is it common to use one server to handle mail for all your game servers?

Folks,

Well, thanks everyone for having the reaction I thought you all would:

1) Trolls - OMG, is this all there is? WTF, addition of two new classes, new content, new influence system, mail system fix, class balances and more, to the game? Is that all you guys can deliver in a month? Yawn

2) Objective folks - Sounds good but still need to deliver on it as well as the other issues with the game!

3) Fans - YIPEE!

So, to the trolls, well, you've shown why you should continue to be ignored here. Please show me another MMORPG which has added new classes to the game without charging the players through an expansion pack. I can't think of one right now but even if there is one that I am forgetting, the vast majority don't. I made a promise that when we cut the content, that it would come back as part of the ongoing patches and not charge players. I'm not surprised that the people who said that when we cut it out, that Mythic would bring it back and charge for it. Well, I kept my promise and I seriously doubt that any of the people who said we were going to charge for it will have the decency to admit they were wrong about me/Mythic once again.

As to the objective folks and the fans, well, this is only part of what will be in 1.1 but we will continue to patch as quickly as we have been the last week. We've already got 1.0.4 in the hopper and I hope we will be able to continue to do a patch a week until 1.1. We have a lot more going in during this time and over the coming weeks I'll talk about our other longer term objectives for the game. We have a lot to talk about and this is only the beginning of some major additions we are going to be making to the game.

As to not going into a lot of detail about the classes or the event surrounding that introduction, we'll be doing that in our next newsletter.   My SoGs are not intended to go into great detail about every thing in them. Since the DAoC days I have been using them to present an overview of the game in terms of where it stands and where we hope to go with it in the near future. They are not intended to be War and Peace, but simply as the title says "State of the Game."

So, expect a lot more from us over the coming weeks in terms of patches, bug fixes, balancing, etc. We're in this for the long haul and as I said in an interview yesterday, success in the MMO world should be seen as a marathon and not a sprint. We're off to a great start but we're not there yet. No successful MMORPG hit its peak within the first year, let alone the first month and that's the approach we're taking with WAR. Tons of new stuff coming and I expect to do more SoGs in the next 9 months to talk about them.

Mark

He needs to stop talking.

Please show me another MMORPG which has added new classes to the game without charging the players through an expansion pack.

is it common to use one server to handle mail for all your game servers?

Horizons. Yeah, that's not the best company to be keeping there. Hey, he asked.

Horizons. Yeah, that's not the best company to be keeping there. Hey, he asked.

"I also said that we would not charge any additional fees for this new content or put it in a separate expansion pack; that’s not how we operate. We’ve kept to that plan and with the introduction of these two classes, Mythic shows that once again we are happy to keep giving players more value for their subscription dollars than any other MMORPG developer."

I'm having many flashbacks to 6 years ago.

Horizons. Yeah, that's not the best company to be keeping there. Hey, he asked.

Mythic has to be real careful saying that.  The company that wins HANDS DOWN for added content free of charge is Turbine with LOTRO.  This content they are adding was taken out before release because it wasn't ready and everyone knows that.

You know for all the talk of "blizzard really grew the industry" I think other developers think they can just put out the same medium-rare mmo's and print money hats cause the industry grew.

I think that's just Turbine's business model.  They do add alot of content to their games free of charge.

In all fairness to the team, the system’s problems have been magnified by the demand of having so many servers and players using it at the same time

Mythic has to be real careful saying that.  The company that wins HANDS DOWN for added content free of charge is Turbine with LOTRO.  This content they are adding was taken out before release because it wasn't ready and everyone knows that.

“The corollary to that is if you’ve seen a game consolidate servers, you know it’s in deep, deep trouble — that’s not a healthy sign for an MMO,” he said, citing Sony’s January-released “Pirates of the Burning Sea” as a recent example. “It will be the same for ‘Warhammer.’ Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”

I think the part that might be tweaking Mythic more is that at this point the number they can float isn't that much more than what AoC could brag about for a brief period. THAT has got to inspire a "get off my lawn kid" McCain-to-Obama feeling for a company who's first launch such an abject trainwreck (AoC by comparison was so very not a wreck).

Folks,

Please show me another MMORPG which has added new classes to the game without charging the players through an expansion pack.

- smoothest launches in MMORPG history
- the future’s so bright we have to wear shades 
- WAR is doing fabulously
- fastest selling MMORPG out of the blocks
- most highly rated MMORPGs of all time 
- WAR is truly a glorious MMORPG
- giving players more value for their subscription dollars than any other MMORPG developer
- performance of WAR is great on most higher spec machines
- enhance WAR’s mail system until it is one of the best mail systems found in any MMORPG
- ongoing content updates to WAR and it is a great start.
- a ton of good stuff coming down the pipeline.
- it’s going to be a doozie.

Mythic has to be real careful saying that.  The company that wins HANDS DOWN for added content free of charge is Turbine with LOTRO.  This content they are adding was taken out before release because it wasn't ready and everyone knows that.

Last two nights have had horrible queue times in T3.  My server went from High/High to Med/Med.  Damn WOW 3.0

Last two nights have had horrible queue times in T3.  My server went from High/High to Med/Med.  Damn WOW 3.0

Wait, IainC got fired?

Please show me another MMORPG which has added new classes to the game without charging the players through an expansion pack. I can't think of one right now but even if there is one that I am forgetting, the vast majority don't.

He needs to stop talking.

That's just the patch too, imagine the expansion...MJ is.

DDO just added monks too.

I have no way to be kind about this, so I'll just spit it out.

The EXP grind post-20 to get to 40 and only worry about PVP/Renown is mind-numbing and worse than anything CoH ever threw at it's users. The tiered beta testing, unfortunately, had no way of really revealing that and the open beta wasn't long enough. And those that realized it figured out how to AoE grind before you fixed it. The level disparity, populations, and BLARGH HORRIBLE CRAP SHIT PvE really buggers up the whole equation.

</insanity>

The changes being made and the fixes being applied are not playing enough to the game's stronger qualities. Please revert your attention to shortening the road to 40 and making the journey a leisurely one instead of a head-banging-against-concrete uphill battle against the EXP bar.

Also:
1. Too many scenarios.
2. Too many RvR lakes.
3. Too many ways to split apart the playerbase.
4. Not enough ways to bring them together and focus on the PvP.
5. Someone needs to get punched for 90% of the scenarios, just say the name.

Edit: I feel like I've typed all of this before. Oh, I have, in like 50 threads. /sigh Oh, and NEVER ask the Vault for anything. Christ, they advertise your competitors over there. It's a cess pit. WHA or in Game, thx.

You seem to think this is about bashing Mythic. No, not really, this is about getting as many people to 40 as possible so the full populations of servers can take part in the best part of the game. Sure, it doesn't help that the vast majority of the scenarios are only exciting to those who drool when they hear a bell, but at the same time. Well, hell. If you can datamine a specific character, go ahead and scrape Tryst. See how many times I ran Mourkain and then Tor Anroc and then (now) Serpent's Passage, just to get through the end of t2/t3 and as I trodge through tier 4. It's fucking harsh man and the last thing I'd want to be compared to is City of Heroes - fortunately you have an interesting endgame whereas they had and still have a nebulous factory for me to fuck up Cloned Thug B with a pipe wrench or whatthefuckever.

Basically, apologize to your quest writers, PvE folks, and such for me - but it's all crap keeping me and everyone else from getting to the Awesome. And have someone reitemize the stats on uhhhh everything?

In other words, find bugs, sploits and stopping gold sellers and finding out where things need to be nerfed and attempting to find out what's missing from the game is fine and all - but if the churn on players that keep their already 40 AOE grind characters vs the number of people that leave once they start troding through the 30s is out of wack, well the problem explains itself. I'm sure you all have the metrics, but I can tell you first hand that the PvE is like, 1/1,000,000th as fun as the PvP. Which is a good thing for the design and a terrible thing for the execution and presumably subscription base once WotLK drops.

I think most people would sympathise with the amount of internet retardation you are exposed to Mark, the message still remains though - play it cool.

Mark,

So, it's REALLY obvious you're passionate about Warhammer. Which is entirely justified. In many ways it's your baby.

Doesn't that mean you should NOT be the one responding to various slings and arrows about it in public?

I don't understand why it matters who said what.

I mean, so what, the guy is a dick. A rich dick with a game that has 10M subs. He can say whatever he wants, he's the king of the castle and his players don't care if he's crapping on the competition. He could say just about anything and not hurt his game. In fact, it's probably in his best interest to shit on other titles/companies in terms of being the BIGGEST MEAN BULLY on the block.

At the same time, he is just another dick on the internet. It doesn't matter if it's a CEO or a QA guy or a CRM or a forum member going around flame warrioring it up. They're still just assholes on the net.

Aren't there more pressing matters than even wasting a breath on that schmuck let alone the written word?

Also: Just because I posted again, let me reiterate - the PvE grind is crap. Kill it with the fire of a thousand suns.

I'm not going to put Bob/Missy/James on the frontline when it comes to responding to a competitor, that can be a very dangerous career move and if someone is going to mess it up, I'd rather it be me than them.

he also seems to have distracted you since we're over here piddledicking about this situation instead of addressing the fact that you're in a forum with a 100+ person guild/200+ person alliance that's on the verge of falling apart because the PvE grind is giving us a "Pool's Closed" sign.

Stop trolling the nice man. You made your point already, do you want him to break into the server room tonight and recompile the game servers to boost XP gain or something?

Well, I want angels to descend from heaven and give me strawberry ice cream, too, but I'm not going to hector people on message boards until that happens!

You would if an angel was posting.

Agreed, that part does make eminent sense. From the outside, I just wonder if a lead designer's random snark about NDAs and bitchiness about not being allowed in a beta (a sentiment I can understand for some odd reason!) at a fan fair and an executive's boilerplate comment about not being affected by churn (I remember an almost identical to the word interview response, I think from Pardo, regarding Age of Conan a month after its ship) calls for such a... vehement response.

 do you want him to break into the server room tonight and recompile the game servers to boost XP gain or something?

FUCK YES.

We just lost our 20% bonus on Uthuan/Order, and its really bad now. We have like 0 RVR and I can go for hours questing in t3 / t4 and maybe see one other person cause they are all in scenarios.

My 100 person half of Schilds alliance is also breaking apart as people smash their heads in to the PVE grind. They all came on the promise of awesome RVR and are very let down.

So, let me get this straight.  I've got the COO of the major competitor saying things that make it *look* like 1/2 of our players have left (which is ridiculously untrue), talks about our European launch being bad (oh yeah, WoW's launch in NA and Europe was flawless right?)  while his game director spins BS about how the way Blizzard runs its beta shows its confidence in the game (forgetting of course the large internal alpha with paid employees that the games goes through and only then has a short public beta) while our beta, which has the general public in it for years, shows our lack of confidence.  He then goes on to say that "he's thinking of quitting our game" (and by inference, saying that other players might want to as well) and that our interface looks like his (forgetting how many interfaces were done before WoW) and generally pissing on our game and when I respond, I'm the jackass?  I had the following choices:

What was your server population tonight when you logged in?

So, let me ask you, would you prefer a server type where there are no scenarios and everybody has to open RvR?

Mark

What, you don't?

No I wouldnt Mark, what I want is rewards that give people incentive to RVR more. Right now because of the horrible return on RVR, people are ether in scenarios, or doing quests while waiting for scenarios.

This leads to a feeling of an empty world and no RVR.

I think you need to DRASTICALLY increase quest exp, and RVR exp, right now it is HORRIBLE in RVR. People totally avoide it while leveling up, as its basically a waste of time to any one that feels even slightly like a min/maxer.

You added a bonus to keep taking, and while that is the right step, the diminishing returns and the low amount of exp make it like it wasnt even added. at level 28-30 I can get 12,000 to 16,000 exp every 10 minutes in Tor Anroc. If I went RVRing, I would be extremely lucky to get 10,000 exp in an hour.

People will gravitate to what offers them the best returns. Right now it is Scenarios, and its sucking all life out of the world, and making it a FPS game with a boring PVE lobby.

*edit*

As I told my friend, right now I spend my time 5% RVR, 35% PVE and 60% Scenarios. Thats not what I want. I want 50%+RVR, 30% PVE and 10% Scenarios. I like them, I do. But I didnt sigh up to play Capture the Flag Online (Now with Warhammer skins). In beta there was a lot of RVR all the time cause people didnt worry about leveling, and it was much more fun.

It's why the concept of a no scenario server is appealing because that way you know you are playing with the people who only want to open RvR.

Mark

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh man, that is totally missing the point.

That's not the problem. Like, not even a LITTLE BIT. Here, gonna bullet this out so nothing gets lost in the shuffle. That's like the sort of solution Vault readers would think is applicable, but it's not. As such:

Scenarios:

• The majority of the scenarios suck a big one. They're either too big and you can't use a horse or they're too lopsided to the point that certain powers rule the day (Tor Anroc and knock back, etc). Also, there's simply too many and none of them are really applicable to training for oRvR once you hit 40.
• I've laid it out in other threads, but as I see it, the scenarios should be - as mentioned - a training ground for the real meet - realm control. As such, cater to that. Also, have a reasonable number. I've come to terms with that number probably being around 3 - 2 - 2 - 1, each representing a tier.
• The scenarios themselves are another pack of angry bees altogether. Where are the scenarios that mimic realm situations? Attack/Defend a keep, Attack/Defend a Battle Objective, etc. All this Warball/Capture the Flag shit is for the birds. If i wanted that I'd just go back to TF2. Sorry, but it just doesn't cut it, it's bad and lazy design. These scenarios practically write themself, I'm just not seeing how the current ones came to be.
• It's a natural reaction of the players to join the queue that has the most players at any given time - that being Nordenwatch, Mourkain, Tor Anroc, Serpents Passage - in that order on most of the servers. Not because they don't suck - most of them do, Nordenwatch being the best of the four, none of them really train you for the real endgame.
• This might hurt: There aren't enough goddamn players on each server to support the current number of scenarios. It's obscene.
• Having this many scenarios breaks up the populations too much to actively participate in Open RvR and to make that the focus.

Open RvR:

• Why do you have so many goddamn lakes? For real man, there's just too many. Talk about splitting up the playerbase.
• A possible solution, GET RID OF MOST OF THEM. Alternatively, why have them be little piddledick zones in each area? Don't you want large scale battles? Why isn't there just one full area in each tier that's just open RvR? The current design is just harebrained and does absolutely nothing but remove players from action. Not to mention the zones are BALLS OUT HUGE.

PvE

• Sucks. Kill it with Fire.
• Unfortunately, it provides the best loot since renown gear eats ass and the good sets are nearly impossible to obtain due to keep drops and the structure of bag distribution
• We're bordering old school horrible EQ design on the loot distribution, if you want people taking part in RvR, stop removing them from it so goddamn much by making them hunt out the best equipment. Why can't players get a piece of Equipment after every scenario? Sure they'll farm it, but who cares, more people PvPing. Why can't everyone in a PQ get an item - A GOOD ITEM - why can't everyone who takes down a keep lord get a bind on pickup fantastic set piece? Just make it worth nothing, so they'll either trash it or keep it - money already means nothing in the game, so the economy can't be hurt by it.

Tip of the damned iceberg here. TIP.

Then I noticed Mark Jacobs was bashing *me* along with some plain LIES on the Vault. He's definitely out of his mind.

Or maybe what I write is too explicit and he'd like that some things are better unsaid.

No god no, bad idea. And I hate scenarios. Reward with rewards, don't re-invent your game. Your playerbase is already to spread out both amongst servers and playstyles. Don't introduce DAoC Classic server solutions when you don't have a classic game to do so with. Look, players will go where the rewards are - why do you think my SM "Tronk" has run Mourkain Temple and now Tor Annoc 5,000 times? BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE GAME REWARDS - and that's where the people are. Don't make "NEW IMPROVED SERVERS" a month after launch, that's crazy. Reward people for doing what you want them to do for the good of the game. C'mon man, you know this shit cold, don't fold on this kind of problem.

LOL, not folding but I have to wonder if what we are seeing is a split between the DAoC/SB/etc. type of RvR player and the MMO newbie players who came from WoW.  I think it is entirely possible that these groups might have some issues being on the same server.  What I'm beginning to think is that a large percentage of the WoW players simply want to play in the same way that they play in WoW and may not be open to the true open RvR style.  I'm not saying we are going to do it but I have to ask myself if that is a possibility?  We are going to significantly up the rewards first but I also want to be prepared for the possibility that many of the players will love WAR as long as they can run scenarios as much as they want.

Do you think I'm really offbase about this?

Mark

Because it's not about *you* that he's spreading lies.

He continues to say I create accounts on the forums where he posts when there isn't a single real case to prove it true. Then goes on to attack me personally while claiming I do the same with him.

 What I'm beginning to think is that a large percentage of the WoW players simply want to play in the same way that they play in WoW and may not be open to the true open RvR style.

Mark

LOL.  Was that you posting under a different name on the Vault Hrose?  I thought it was and was hoping that my statement would draw you out.  That post (from a new member) was a link to the Cesspit extolling the virtues of Hrose's writing and how insightful, positive and illuminating it was.  My comment back was simply "Alabieno = Hrose" and that he has been bashing Mythic and I for years.  I also went on to say that Hrose was at times intelligent but that when we didn't agree with him, his posts turned negative and personal.  Another poster linked to here and one of Hrose's comments about how I abused the community.

Now, what part of what I said wasn't true?

Mark

Do you think I'm really offbase about this?

I do NOT agree with Schild about the RVR Lakes needing to be smaller, I think what we need is more players in the world.

So, when I was on WHA in the beginning and you came over to post there and complain about me and Mythic and DAoC, you were there why exactly?

Or when years ago you posted under alias at the Vault and I called you on it when the alias said the same stuff about me?

Or all the columns you wrote saying I should be fired, I was liar and a cheat?

No, I'm not misunderstanding anything.  Based on some of what you had written, I really thought you had gotten past doing this sort of stuff but apparently not.  And again, it's a shame because at least I was willing to say in my posts that you are intelligent and you have some good ideas.

Mark

People follow the rewards. Is this where I say obvious design is obvious?


No one ENJOYS BG farming in WoW. It's just leaps and bounds the best reward path. It's practically the ONLY reward path for PvP for the masses.



WAR Scenarios seem like they have the same problem. They simply out weigh everything else reward wise. Buff the world RvR up, consolidate it, profit?


I played DaoC for a really long time, I WANT to like WAR, but you are making it very hard as things stand. "Soul crushing grind doing shit I don't want to do to get to the parts I want to do? Sign me up!  :awesome_for_real: "

People follow the rewards. Is this where I say obvious design is obvious?


No one ENJOYS BG farming in WoW. It's just leaps and bounds the best reward path. It's practically the ONLY reward path for PvP for the masses.



WAR Scenarios seem like they have the same problem. They simply out weigh everything else reward wise. Buff the world RvR up, consolidate it, profit?


I played DaoC for a really long time, I WANT to like WAR, but you are making it very hard as things stand. "Soul crushing grind doing shit I don't want to do to get to the parts I want to do? Sign me up!  :awesome_for_real: "

Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios.  We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it. 

Mark

So, when I was on WHA in the beginning and you came over to post there and complain about me and Mythic and DAoC, you were there why exactly?

Or when years ago you posted under alias at the Vault and I called you on it when the alias said the same stuff about me?

Or all the columns you wrote saying I should be fired

I was liar and a cheat?

Based on some of what you had written, I really thought you had gotten past doing this sort of stuff but apparently not.

Look, I agree with you in theory 100%. However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios. We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it.

Ok but keep in mind that if you won't commit to the game why the fuck should I? This is my money and time. I AM THE DAOC/SB guy you're talking about. So I don't want to fuck around for a few months only to find out that there's a "REAL WAR SERVER" coming in January. Are you sure you want to fracture your base that way?

Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios. 

Can you imagine trying to level on a "No Scenario" server with the way EXP is right now?

 :ye_gods:

Wait a second.  How does me saying "Yeap, we are going to buff up RvR rewards, gear, itemization, new influence system, etc." + "Hey, by the way, would people like a no scenarios server or a tiered scenario server, just curious?" somehow translate to not committing to the game?  Again, let me say again that I'm just concerned even if we do all these things that a sizable portion of our players are so WoW-trained that they will prefer scenario based RvR to open RvR and if that is the case, that we have an option for the player who want to play open RvR more than scenarios.  

Mark

It would have to be boosted extremely high to compensate for the loss of the scenarios.  However, if the choice is sit on servers with all the wowheads playing sport pvp or move my ass to a server where people do real RVR I'd have to move.  Though, I do agree with most here, I would rather have the balance issues fixed, rewards that entice people  to rvr then have to split off on to a new server type.  So far though all I see out of warhammer is a bunch of scenarios designed to attract the wow sport pvp customer base.

Get rid of the bullshit restrictions, the bad PvE quest limitations and let us MAKE WAR. We will. I swear. WoW noobs included - no new server types needed.

Well without invoking the VisionTM - who designs the game - you or the WoW noobs (to quote) that you want to attract? It's pretty clear to me and everyone else in this thread. And Mark - we like you - you make games we enjoy - but you're wrong on this one. New server types will only drive away your fans who already sub and won't grab anyone with WoTLK coming.

WE FOLLOW THE CARROT. ALL OF US. WOW NOOBS INCLUDED.

Get rid of the bullshit restrictions, the bad PvE quest limitations and let us MAKE WAR. We will. I swear. WoW noobs included - no new server types needed.

We just lost our 20% bonus on Uthuan/Order, and its really bad now.

The "No Scenario" idea is dimwitted, short-sighted, easy-way-out design, and pretty much retarded.

There's no nice way to say it.

Solving the problems presented to players of the game is pretty damned easy right now, it just seems Mythic as a whole has no real interest in approaching them from the Reward angle.

Mark can SAY it all he wants, but this incremental shit is for the birds.

20% more of nothing is still nothing, as someone else put it in another thread.

Open RvR doesn't reward in loot or experience, it should reward massively in both.
Scenarios don't reward in decent loot but they have the best exp return (and even that level of EXP return by tier 4 is shit).
PvE has the best loot but by far the most boring gaming experience and crappy EXP gain compared to scenarios.

Loot distribution and itemization, while pretty and well-named, is basically shit.
There's too much too spread out and too everywhere and it's all just turned itself into a nightmare scenario.

I really don't know how else to say it, but the skinner box is fucked up atm.

Dude what you're telling us - the people who bought in - is that we're going to have to re-roll because you don't have the balls to offend the WoWheads with a game-style they're not used to. Who the fuck do you think is going to populate your NO SCENARIO servers anyway? The WoW players? Apparently not. No, it's us, the people who are giving you the advice that it's a bad idea. Think about it man, seriously.

Who said anything about re-rolling?  If I put up a new server rule set I damn well better have free transfers to it.  And I'm not worrying about offending the WoWheads but if you think I'm going to do something like cut scenario exp/renown in 1/2 or anything like that, you also must think I'm nuts.  I'll boost RvR like mad, make it the place to level and gear up but all I'm saying is that I want to be prepared for the possibility that a lot of players still may want to stick with scenarios.  I'm not burying my head in the sane and saying everything is great and we don't need to change anything but I also don't want to bury my head in the sand and say that if I do all these things, everything will be great.  I just want to have options in case we all are wrong.  How is that crazy or having no balls?

Mark

The ex-WoW people are not playing your game for PvE, so you can stop trying to make everyone do it if they don't wanna.

I think wringing your hands about the GOD WHAT IF THEY STAY IN SCENARIOS without even TRYING to make the world RvR really, really, REALLY rewarding (and FOR TEH REALM is not enough reward, sorry. We're greedy.) is ... stubborn? Perhaps that's the word. Make the open RvR stuff reward the crap out of people, and most people, even the "WoW noobs" (be more condescending, I know you can!) will do it. Shit, that's why Blizzard has been TRYING to put more world PvP in (and not doing so hot, in my opinion), people have asked for it because they're sick of BGs and open world PvP is often pretty fun. But if you get more shiny stuff from BGs or whatever ... well, that's what people will still do.

Will there still be people in scenarios? Sure. That's OKAY. I don't think anyone here (or in the game) is really mad people play and enjoy scenarios, we're just annoyed that the part some of us think is way more fun doesn't reward us nearly as much. Scenarios have some things that automatically make it "better" ... the sides will be even and you get to teleport there and back automagically. But if you get reeeeeally sweet stuff from open RvR, people will do that more.

We are going to boost RvR like crazy, it's going to be the place to be.  You'd have to have 10 tons of brain damage not to go open RvR.

And that's exactly what I said we'd do.  We're going to boost it like crazy.  Maybe I would have been better off just saying:

We are going to boost RvR like crazy, it's going to be the place to be.  You'd have to have 10 tons of brain damage not to go open RvR.

Actually, if you're even in theoretical 100% agreement that would be at the very least the tiniest glimmer of hope. But you've brought up the No-Scenario server more than once in this thread alone (which was once too many as we lolled about it in another thread). It's totally not a solution.

I don't think any of it is simple. In the least.

But you still, even in that response, haven't addressed the simple fact that PvE is the best way to get loot, scenarios are the best way to get experience, and RvR is too fragmented. I mean, comeon friendo, you're killing me here. Even if you boost RvR by 300%, the diminishing returns on multiple kills due to the tiers being so removed from eachother is going to kill that fast. And it would basically require that euros and such on US servers play during our peak hours.

RvR is awesome. You're right. Scenarios are pretty great too! PvE could be pretty great if it wasn't so mind-numbingly non-rewarding. Fuck yea I'm pissed off. I did Tor Anroc some odd 200 times to get from 23-32. The fact I'm here arguing should tell you you're on the right path, I've already lasted here longer than any MMOG in the last oh, 5 years. But there are things at stake here, most notably the player base as the clock is ticking on Wrath and you keep referring to WoW players wanting a specific type of game. I'm not even sure Blizzard knows what they want. AFAIK most of those people are there because of the community, because that game is just not very good - it's just very polished. Obviously WAR isn't there yet, but you excel in other areas and unfortunately it seems like the steps being taken are... short-sighted.

If I were you, I'd have official forums.  :awesome_for_real:

It's not that you can't entertain ideas, but you have to be OK with people rejecting an idea, even if it is your very favoritest one.

Really, how many MMO's have Crashed and Burned because "OH LORD I CAN LEVEL TOO FAST AND HAVE FUN!" ?


Seriously, when has that ever happened?


Like Ever?

There are some things, problems that is, with the game that are patently obvious that you could increase in say, as you said, 2 days.

....

Simple things man, keep that loot slot machine going. Keep people PvPing. Make the RvR the best thing during peak hours. Make the scenarios the best thing during off-peak hours. Hell, if you have to shut down Scenarios from 5-8PM eastern, I'd even understand that move. It would ALMOST make sense. Actually, now that I think about it, it kinda does.

We're talking simple numerical changes to exp across the board though. Because right now, it is like 2003, and I'm playing City of Heroes and getting bugfuck insane about it.

Stop saying We Want to Make War. That's not really the point. The point here is to alleviate the mind-numbingness. I agree with Mark, kneejerk chanages to the WAR structure would result in an absolute clusterfuck. But keeping people around with proper rewards/slick-as-hell-level-advancement (as in supa fast) and a working skinner box will let them implement those long term stages.

And, we have always spoken about the amount of time it would take to level and, on *most* servers, most players are leveling exactly as quickly as we said they would.

I wasn't aware saying, "No seriously, don't you think no scenario servers would help?" was really an explanation, exactly. Just restating the same thing ("C'mon, at least KINDA admit no-scenario servers could help!!!!") does, indeed, make it seem like you aren't listening at all. If you can see the issues with the idea, you might want to mention them in your defense, and say what benefits there would be to, you know, balance those. People have brought up a LOT of reasons it would be a bad idea, you have not really "defended" why it isn't besides "It's hard. :("

'Course, it's REALLY LATE now. Maybe it's time for bed. At least for me.

For every person that quested to level 40 quickly, I'm pretty sure I can point you at 10 people that AoE grinded to 40. I find it hard to believe that those numbers aren't lying there.

Point being, the PvE isn't fun. We can talk about cluster density and player progression and how fast it goes, but PvE in this game really does boil down to, press strongest attack, repeat. You could increase it a thousand% across the board and honestly, I'd probably still be banging my head against the wall if I had to do it. Hell, if you made it so that every single little town/hovel gave me at least 1 level from quests that all took me to the same location, I'd still be like WHY THE HELL AM I DOING THIS. To which I'd response "Oh, right, it's offpeak hours" and then a moment later I'd think "Well, at least it's going fast."

As Fordel said, leveling too fast has never killed an MMOG. And he's right. I think maybe, perhaps, you missed the part where I said Player Rank 1-40 should've been the tutorial whereas renown shouldn't be changed. As I've said, no one minds a grind, but the grind has to have meaning. 1-40 is a grind for the sake of grind, the proof is in what you just said:


/snoresville on that man. It rips me apart to read shit like that. This isn't a PvE game. What's it going to hurt if the entire playerbase is level 40?

This is where I'd normally go into a diatribe about this game even having levels being a cop-out design decision, but no, that's not my style tonight. Because I'm exhausted. Suffice it to say, I have 40-50 hours logged on my character. I am VERY good at PvP and I'm not level 40 year because I didn't abuse an AoE grind/exploit, I refuse to take part in T4 questing now, and there's no RvR to speak of because it's either join the zerg and get no reward at T4 or do scenarios and questing. And scenarios just ain't popping outside of select hours.

Out of curiosity, have you done the check on people who canceled their sub for the second month? What percentage of them hit 40? I'm guessing somewhere between 0% and 5% and only because they're broke from the economy kicking them right in the ponch.

My defense was this:

What if we do all the things that people here want (other than cutting scenario exp/renown) and players still won't leave the scenarios.  If this is the case, wouldn't having a scenario-free server work for those players who want non-stop RvR action?


And I've said the same thing more than once.  Again, it's very early now as it past late 3 hours ago, but all I've said and said and said was that *if* we are wrong about the WoWheads and they don't want to move out of scenarios and at the same time we care about our open RvR players, would a no scenario server work?  Nothing more complicated than that.  Because really, if we do everything people think is a great idea and people don't move we only have a limited set of choices:

1) Force them to move out by cutting scenarios at certain levels (tiered)

2) Cut experience/renown from scenarios

3) Try something different like no-scenario server

4) Do nothing


I don't like 2 at all, I truly hate 4, 1 is a possibility and 3 was the no-scenario server or something else like that.  Did I miss anything?

Mark
Mark

Uhhhhh, yea, you missed choices 5 and 6.

5) Increase RvR to the point that scenarios are something you do during offpeak hours.

6) Figure out a way to make sure everyone in any tier knows exactly which RvR zone to go to and offer an instant button-press to get there.

I'm sorry, but some things just have to have the training wheels slapped on them so that people can skip the bullshit (this includes walking across a zone to a damned warcamp).

As to (5), I've already said huge gains for open RvR.  But there's no magic number unless you want me to say "If you do RvR you'll level instantly!" We want RvR leveling to be as fast, if not faster, than PvE.  Yes, I know it's not there yet but that's the goal.

As to (6), that's on my list already and falls under the things we need to do heading.

Mark

Umm yeah. Do 2 with some 1. as is reasonable . Seriously WTF? Are you having an issue with changing the carrot/stick ratio? Players will help those folks find rewards you know. Or are you just afraid? I just don't get it. Assuming accompanying increases in RvR...

Squirrel,

I can tell you right the f now. You never, ever ever ever cut rewards/exp from something when unnecessary. And here it's quite unnecessary. There's WAY MORE than enough wiggle room to get players into RvR. Scenarios aren't THAT lucrative, saying they're the most lucrative place for exp is a misnomer since the exp is still shit.

The first thing I'd cut? That diminishing return bullshit on characters who have been killed recently. Who gives a shit if a guild organizes with another to let them get pwned over and over and be farmed. Great, more people that get to 40 faster! I don't understand this FEAR of everyone in the game being at 40. Hell, the thing is specifically designed to have everyone at 40. /snarl

You really think that cutting scenario exp/renown gain right now and forcing people to open RvR would be a good business decision?  Sorry, got to really disagree here.  I prefer buffing up open RvR (which will still be met with cries of NERF) versus changing the way the vast majority of people play the game overnight by cutting things away from them.  

Mark

Good to hear about #6. Also, making RvR faster than PvE is kinda laughable, as I've said the PvE here is slow like CoH slow. When you say fast, do you mean like 50x faster or like 2x faster? Because the latter we pretty much got with the 20% gain and that was like 20% on top of zero.

No I don't. My prior opinions stand, but yah, cutting xp/rr now is a bad idea.

Yeah it's late - i have to retract that idea. But all my other ones were awesome for real. Honest!

2) Cut experience/renown from scenarios

What if we do all the things that people here want (other than cutting scenario exp/renown) and players still won't leave the scenarios.  If this is the case, wouldn't having a scenario-free server work for those players who want non-stop RvR action?

I prefer buffing up open RvR (which will still be met with cries of NERF) versus changing the way the vast majority of people play the game overnight by cutting things away from them.  

Also on server population balance, I'd put a T4 only quest item drop on the final keep lord before a city attack.  Make it an item that you can mail to an alt on the same account that makes them permanently gain exp at twice the normal rate.  That encourages people to make alts. 

I do think that some of the problem is the fact that people think 40 < 60 when it comes to levels and that the grinding seems worse because you have only 40 levels to go to max out.

I've played a ton of MMOs and, at least according to the spreadsheet the time to solo most toons is faster here (on paper, I know) than EQ, DAoC, WoW when they launched.  Again, I'm not, not saying working as intended (I hate that phrase) but when we set out the number originally it was still less than those games and I cut that number down even more about 6 months ago.

Lol.

It's more reasonable for you to simply gain EXP at double the rate on any alt once you hit T4 at all. Mythic/Mark should not be afraid of having an entire playerbase at Tier 4 and going toe to toe in RvR (if they can find eachother - tee-hee).

I think you're spending too much time getting drawn into internet arguments Mark.

Whether it's sniping between you and some Blizzard dudes or debating with the crazies here I don't think it's a good use of your time right now. The things you've been saying online over the last few days make you sound stressed, defensive and a bit desperate. Please don't take that personally, it's just my opinion. Turn off the computers, go and take a shower, have a meal with your family, go for a walk, get all of this shit out of your head and devote your energies to the game, not to fighting with a bunch of cranky internet nerds (even if they happen to be COO's of your competitors).

Also, stop referring to trolls. Anywhere. Sure, there may be people who don't care what they're posting just cos they like getting a rise out of you, but I'd guess that 95% of the posts that you think of as trolling posts are just frustrated players expressing themselves in the language of the medium - i.e. not very eloquently and dressed up in internet-forum hostility dialect. By taking time to specifically label them as trolls it makes it sound like you have contempt for their feelings. And even if that's true, letting people know it is a very bad idea. Behind every "troll" is a pissed-off player or almost-player, neither of which you want to drive away.

Again, just thoughts from another internet nerd. Don't take anything anyone says on the internet personally, even when it's, you know, a personal attack.

Try comparing it to WoW's XP curve NOW, since that's what you're competing with   :grin: (Obvious post is obvious again?).


Raw speed is certainly important (probably most, go fast enough and no one will care HOW), but so is HOW you level up. Reading about Schild and his adventures in the same Scenario over a entire weekend sucks away my interest in playing.

"So I can like Grind WSG/AB, but to level too?" :heartbreak:

Like, Schild has said before, Why would you be afraid of people hitting level cap in WAR?

I did that (the XP comparison) already. :)  And in terms of being afraid, we're not which is why we, in theory, made it easier to level than most of the competition (I can't say all since I haven't played all MMOs).

Mark

I did that (the XP comparison) already. :)  And in terms of being afraid, we're not which is why we, in theory, made it easier to level than most of the competition (I can't say all since I haven't played all MMOs).

I'm not frothy anymore. Fox just ordered a full season of Sarah Connor chronicles. That said, my description of t3/t4 above still stands. That's seriously how it feels mark and it's terrible.

My God, don't you people sleep?

My God, don't you people sleep?

Not for a thread of this caliber (thejeni quality).  Seriously, this thread needs to be inscribed on plates of beaten gold, read through seer stones, and used as the basis of a religion that has magic underwear and opposes gay marriage.  Even reading the first post or two out loud should summon a horde of flying monkeys.  That's how fucking awesome this is. 

Yup. The Blood God has nothing on this. I'm having it tattooed on my back.

And that's exactly what I said we'd do.  We're going to boost it like crazy.  Maybe I would have been better off just saying:

We are going to boost RvR like crazy, it's going to be the place to be.  You'd have to have 10 tons of brain damage not to go open RvR.

What was your server population tonight when you logged in?

So, let me ask you, would you prefer a server type where there are no scenarios and everybody has to open RvR?

What have you got to lose?

LOL, not folding but I have to wonder if what we are seeing is a split between the DAoC/SB/etc. type of RvR player and the MMO newbie players who came from WoW.  I think it is entirely possible that these groups might have some issues being on the same server.  What I'm beginning to think is that a large percentage of the WoW players simply want to play in the same way that they play in WoW and may not be open to the true open RvR style.  I'm not saying we are going to do it but I have to ask myself if that is a possibility?  We are going to significantly up the rewards first but I also want to be prepared for the possibility that many of the players will love WAR as long as they can run scenarios as much as they want.

Do you think I'm really offbase about this?

Mark

Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios.  We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it. 

Mark

What I really don't understand is that DAoC had those fantastic battlegrounds, that had one mini keep and let people level up doing mini-rvr. Then when some one in this thread suggested some thing like that, Mark reacted as if it was a totally new idea.

It boggles my mind that WAR didn't have something like this. At least like one per tier.

Scenarios are fine.

I'm having many flashbacks to 6 years ago.

1-20 of this game is the most perfect MMO experience I've ever had.

If this game wants to keep me as a customer, here are the things that have to change:
1. Significantly increase experience gains from quests. Pretty no-brainer here. I should be able to progress from tier to tier purely from quests if I want to. Hell, I don't think I should have to change pairing unless I want to hang out with some dwarves, yet I not only have to, but that's not even enough to get me through each tier.
[...]

Which side / pairing?

I'm playing HE with Bat Country and Tier 2 is killing me. That the HE side is pretty much empty contributes a lot to this issue.

Also, I'm aware of the technical issues of having larger server populations, but then the game is called WAR, and "War is everywhere!", not Skirmish: "War is around, if you look hard enough".

I was thinking that the dependence of WAR's PvP on PvE loot really showed that someone lacked the confidence to allow PvP to stand on its own two feet.

If it's the long-term, well, you would look at everything carefully.  You would take safer steps while you plan out the bigger steps. 

Which side / pairing?

I'm playing HE with Bat Country and Tier 2 is killing me. That the HE side is pretty much empty contributes a lot to this issue.

Also, I'm aware of the technical issues of having larger server populations, but then the game is called WAR, and "War is everywhere!", not Skirmish: "War is around, if you look hard enough".

I was thinking that the dependence of WAR's PvP on PvE loot really showed that someone lacked the confidence to allow PvP to stand on its own two feet.

Orc but if you're in t2 now, after everyone has moved on, I imagine it would be a very different experience.

Few thoughts....

Scenarios are fine. People complain that they are the only thing to do at the moment, but honestly... they are the only thing to do at the moment.  I agree, getting rid of them... bad idea. There are some rulechanges that need to be implemented to fix them... Basic shit that any ignrarnus that plays the game can figure out.  Only the ignorant couldn't imagine that expressing the "take away" in any software product is like committing professional suicide.  TWEAK IT BUT DON'T EVER REMOVE A FEATURE.
Make WINNING the match worthwhile...  give more reward for winning and I dont mean 10% more xp or whatever crap algorithm is in place at the moment.  Right now we have people in these scenarios droppin groups for more xp, we have them not even bothering with winning the match because they get more Renown and XP from killing players win or lose.  That needs some fixing.  Make them NOT worthwhile if you're not going to actually PLAY the damn thing the way its supposed to be.  you dont' cap an objective, YOU DON'T GET CRAP.  Seriously.  how can you get more xp and renown even if you LOSE?  I wouldn't even do the damn things if it wasn't worth my while, so why not make it so I need to TRY, and COMPETE?

On that note, it started me thinking how frustrating it is to not be able to warband and join a scenario.  please add that feature.  don't hold us back because "it would make it unfair" we should be able to be as competitive as possible in this game.  That counts for everything.  I joined a guild years ago so I could play with alike minded gamers to advance my GUILD in this game.  I'm forced daily to play with, often times, completely idiot randoms because (and I could be wrong on my reasoning why it isn't allowed) it would make it "unfair" to do these scenarios?  Crap, that might make them "less appealing" to some as a way to grind out renown/xp and drive people out into the world to do it if they're getting it pushed in by elitist idiots like myself.  LET US WARBAND for them.  Eventually let us cross/server do scenarios.  And fix the bugs/exploits in them .. of course.

RVR.  This is where this game is supposed to excel.  Problem is it's the WEAKEST of all the things that this game has going for it.  Currently I'm level 40.  I logged in on a Saturday.  A SATURDAY on a HIGH POPULATION SERVER.  Guess how many KEEPS I took?  ZERO.  We own them all, and we can't advance to the next zone (fortress) because for some reason we can't even lock the damn zone.  I mean, we have been doing PQs all day in a zone to try and get the thing to lock so we can progress, except THE DAMN BAR WON'T EVEN MOVE.  Taking objectives, killing players, completing quests, and winning scenarios is supposed to move that bar, except.. if you dont have players in a zone to fight you, you can't even move the bar.  You can't take back objectives because there aren't any people in there, and if you DID ALL THE QUESTS already you can't move the bar yet again?
Seriously someone needs to fix that.  Put it on a timer.  If we hold everything for an hour, we get to progress... do SOMETHING To keep gameplay going.  Right now... YOU CAN'T EVEN PLAY THE GAME?! 

Another seriously annoying thing in this game.  HOW IN THE HELL CAN SOMEONE THAT JUST SHOWED UP TO A KEEP RAID, DOING LITTLE TO NOTHING win a LOOT BAG?  I bring my guild to a keep, some retard shows up smacks a few buttons and he gets to take the loot kuz he "rolled high?"  Why in the HELL can't we figure out a way to progress our guild?  I mean, RVR means Realm vs Realm not "my guild" vs realm, but with how loot is distributed, it can take literally YEARS to get all your pieces to a set because any idiot is welcome to show up and roll?  Think about how stupid that is.

I keep wondering.  Is this game going to work out?  Maybe its our server?  Should we reroll on another server?  Will that fix it?  If our server is already HIGH population (Badlands) and we can't find anyone to fight.... does that mean we're so ahead of the curve that'll be fixed in time when the opposition levels up?  how long can we tolerate a game that has NOTHING TO DO IN IT?
Should we wait and see if time fixes it?  When will patch 1.1 come out?  Will that buff weak classes to the point where they will be competitive in a game that is built on the very thing some classes can't do.. KILL OTHER CHARACTERS?  Will it make it "worthwhile" to go RVR?  Right now nobody does it, either A because they're not high enough, or B because it doesn't mean jack crap. 

I'm sure you've spent untold hours thinking about how to fix it.  You seem very passionate about this thing, I would be too.

I can't begin to be like some people here and think I know what is going to fix the game, I can only express to you what it is I see that makes me not want to play the game.  THERE IS NO RVR IN THIS RVR GAME.  I don't know how to stimulate the community to RVR in the wild. take keeps, go and pvp outside for a change.  All I know is that is what was promised, and that was NOT delivered.   Closing Scenarios will NOT fix the game.  The CARROT on the STICK might work for a while, but eventually I think something MAJOR has to be done to fix it.  Once we get all our loot what next?  This game isn't competitive by any means, there's nothing MY GUILD can do right now to say, we accomplished something, when the game seems built to appease the masses.. even if they want to just play casual...   No matter how hard I play, how much quests I do, right now.  I get just as much as the next guy who turns up 2 minutes before we're done with our 1 hours worth of work.   Sorry, that shit wont cut it.

I believe in Mark Jacobs. He may very well be the most human MMO developer I have ever had the experience to encounter. His honesty, insight, and willingness to own up to mistakes makes him in my eyes one of the best resources WAR has behind it.

Someone must have linked this thread because the Vaultards have invaded.

WHA, FoH and SA actually, not IGN, though I'd wager there's a link there now also, but no substantial number of visitors.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/35739-war-nda-officially-lifted-post-pics-info-483.html

Edit: People came here, obviously, hoping to get their voice heard. Instead it just seems like dev stalking. Oh well, whatever.

WHA, FoH and SA actually, not IGN, though I'd wager there's a link there now also, but no substantial number of visitors.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/35739-war-nda-officially-lifted-post-pics-info-483.html

Edit: People came here, obviously, hoping to get their voice heard. Instead it just seems like dev stalking. Oh well, whatever.

In regards to Jacobs making polls and posts asking for feedback from VN, it really shocked me as well.  The only reason I ever visit is because I know Mythic posts there.  Why? I really have no idea...  Saying you post on VN is like saying your website is hosted with Geocities.com.

Oh please, he's not going to post at foh for obvious reasons.  They decided not to have official forums, I don't agree with it but considering they aren't doing 40k online I can understand it.  Mythic have a long history with vn because of daoc, pick something else to be shocked about.

Stay on topic guys. We don't really care why you're here or where you came from if your points are solid.

As long as they have a long term plan to improve the game in that regard, I'll be back in 6 months when it's done.

Oh please, he's not going to post at foh for obvious reasons.  They decided not to have official forums, I don't agree with it but considering they aren't doing 40k online I can understand it.  Mythic have a long history with vn because of daoc, pick something else to be shocked about.

Last game that made me read VN boards for the latest word was Horizons.  Not a great association.

Ahh Paelos. Do you know how it hurts me deep in my soul when I agree with you?  :oh_i_see:

So I rolled an ironbreaker on a recommended low pop server. Ouch. Thank god for scenarios or I'd never run into anybody. In those scenario's I meet the same guys over and over again, but that's cool because you can actually go after that a-hole that busted your balls in the previous one. I'm having a good time.
Playing on a low pop server also means you really have to organise your rvr. Unless we give our destruction brethren a time and place, besieging a keep will be pve most of the time.
Of course public quests are undoable. I'm rank 20 now and I have never seen more than 3 people doing a public quest, and even then we wiped out on stage two.
We are on a new server where people from a high pop server can migrate to, yet none of them want to anymore, because people that did get the word back that the server is dead besides t1. And while that isn't exactly true, it isn't all that far from being wrong either.
I'm still enjoying myself but on my server it's pretty clear that unless we get a higher population there won't be much war going on.

You can actually see subscriptions fizzling out in tier 3. They should make an animation for it.

It's struck me how WoW's time investment has evolved with their playerbase and it's even more glaring with the issues WAR is experiencing. A guy who started WoW in, say, his senior year of college at release is now 26 years old. The free time and outlook of a 22 year old is very different than a 26 year old. I started at 26 and am now 31; that's a big difference, too. So while I'm certain that some of the in-game issues prompted the moves from 40>25>10 man raiding and the like I'm just as certain that Blizzard being cognizant of how large portions of their playerbase "growing up" with their game was a big factor.

So when people talk about WAR competing with WoW now as opposed to WoW four years ago I think this is another factor. WAR made a game which, due to the grind, is catered to a group of people with more free time and tolerance than I currently have. If WLK were not shipping with 10 mans as an option I would probably be out. As it is, for all the talk of WoW being a kid's game, it's the only one on the market that caters to adults. To me.

That's such a strange thing to me, that the game which required such amazing catassery in the late AQ40/early Naxx days would become the only thing out there for an adult's schedule. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that making a game for late teens/early twenties is the way to go about this. It's a big pie now but I think it's aging far more quickly (along with the rest of the PC market) than the XBox Live crowd which is constituting such a big part of the internet gaming market moving forward.

As it is, for all the talk of WoW being a kid's game, it's the only one on the market that caters to adults. To me.

One thing i haven't seen addressed adequately is the gear aspect of PQs. I'm a little confused, as per lac's post for example, as to why people bother with PQs at all - from everything i've seen of the game so far (Tiers 1 and 2) Renown gear is leaps and bounds better then PQ gear. There does not, quite literally, seem to be any point in doing them.

lol so wrong

lol show me

Ok, i did say i don't know anything about T3/T4. What colour bags were you getting in T1/T2?

Ok, i did say i don't know anything about T3/T4. What colour bags were you getting in T1/T2?

PQ gear is good for some classes and just plain ass for others.  I rarely find a PQ I actually want to grind all they way for an item. 

Yes, but in my defense, I did have to suffer through 7 pages of text to get here.

Mark knows this, so give your suggestions, but then get out of his way.

 I said it more jokingly than anything else (WELL NOT REALLY).  The post was more for this thread's posters' benefit than for Mark's (YOU BUYING THIS?), as I realize he hasn't posted in a few pages (OH PLZ PLZ PLZ MARK READ ME).  Most of what I said is more or less "MMO design 101," so I'm sure he's quite equipped without my advice. (FLATTERY NEVER HURTS)

  However, you should consider that from a developer's perspective, it's really the people who peep their head over the fence whose posts warrant the most attention (CAUSE I DID).  I'm not speaking about myself here because I post slightly more often on other forums, but you can tell what the real issues are with your game by the number of first-time posters they bring out of the woodwork (CAUSE I'M ONE).  There is always going to be a passionate segment of the population that will post their thoughts at the drop of a hat, but they won't always -- or even frequently -- represent the views of the population as a whole (BUT I DO).  I'm not claiming to (I LIED I AM), but when someone who has yet to post about your game makes a lengthy one about any topic, it's probably a topic worth considering on some level.(CAUSE MINE ARE)


 Or he simply made a mistake.  At this point it's really hard to say.  I know that when I make a mistake, I have the luxury of it not affecting hundreds of thousands of people.

 I think some of the larger concepts inherent in War's design bear witness to Mark and his team's knowledge of the genre and its caveats, which is why I have faith that they'll correct their mistakes in due time.  But as I alluded to in my last post, it will take time.  They have all of these data mining tools these days precisely because -- contrary to popular opinion -- one of the worst things you can do in MMO development is listen to the players. (UNLESS ITS ME)
 

Edit: People came here, obviously, hoping to get their voice heard. Instead it just seems like dev stalking. Oh well, whatever.

So it can tell you what people are or are not doing, however it cannot tell you why.  Even if you ask directly, people aren't always sure themselves.

wow, i only signed up to let you know most of you are a bunch of assholes. Why Mark bothers with you guys is a mystery.

A player ties up far, far more server resources than a NPC guard, so their impact is fairly negligible.  Slayerik's explanation probably has a lot more to do with it.  We all saw how AoC handled "truly massive battles," though that's not the best example.

First, I would like to say, THANK YOU Mark for the desire to make World RvR the "place to be". I've had faith that you guys were working on that since you did boosts to it already, but it's good to hear it directly sometimes.

I also apoligize because many of these ppl are acting like idiots in responses to you. Since I started playing this game I have always appreciated the fact that you personally respond to people on the forums, because I have never seen a developer reguarly do that on any other forums. I just wish it was a little bit more of a productive debate, but I guess people acting like idiots is what you typically get online.

With that said, I would just like to give you some constructive feedback on the "no scenario" server idea. I am completely against the idea.

If many players leave the server to go to a "no scenario" server, this would effectively kill a large part of world RvR on the existing servers. While I would prefer not to do scenarios all the time, I enjoy them as a minigame occasionally, typically if I have a small group of just a couple people going and not quite enough to make much of an impact in RvR.

We are at a point where many people have the desire for more world RvR, and if you opened up a server like this, it would help the world RvR on that server, but it would wreck havok and make world RvR nearly non existant on the existing ones.

Fragmenting the population is not a good idea. The existing servers would basically be the servers that the majority of the scenario players stay at, and the world RvR'ers go to the other. Players like me would be stuck in the middle. While I love world RvR, I would not want to go to a "no scenario" server because as I said, I enjoy them occasionally.

I fear the idea being implemented. I fear I would be stuck with a bunch of scenario players, like how the game is now. Once we get the game to a point that world RvR is more prominent, it would suck so badly to revert to the current state. I fear many of my friends leaving for a world RvR server, and being torn about which one I should go to.

This has been the first time I actually have gotten worried by something the developers of the game said. Most MMO's end up becoming great 6 months to a year after release, but then a couple years in, a bad decision effectively ruins the game. I feel very strongly that if you go thru with this idea, one of those "Game ruining implementations" will happen much earlier then with the usual game. And to be honest, I hope that nothing like that is ever implemented in to this game.

I honestly think this game is the most successful adaptation of a game for PvP players that has came out in a long. long time. Please dont ruin it!

Obviously you do not remember UO beta, when the guards actually roamed around and used pathfinding to get to targets. Before they were teleporting, instant kills.

You could cause a lot of crimes in a town and it would spawn more guards to deal with the crimes, kind of like Concord in Eve, and the server would grind to a halt. Anyways, just sayin'.

It would depend upon the AI and other coding for which takes up more resources.  Probably players, unless the mob of mobs in question have very CPU-intensive scripts.

One also has to interpret the data one has correctly.

Their data probably shows an incredible amount of participation in scenarios.  One might draw the conclusion people only want to play scenarios.  Someone else might realize people only play scenarios because nothing else gives as high a reward/time ratio.

So it can tell you what people are or are not doing, however it cannot tell you why.  Even if you ask directly, people aren't always sure themselves.

I think Mythic gambled that you could both get the Orvr crowd and the wow BG grind crowd pleased,

wow, i only signed up to let you know most of you are a bunch of assholes. Why Mark bothers with you guys is a mystery.

Hmm,
 
Well, WHA easily dwarfs every other WAR forum in existance in terms of size and actual readers/posters. So I'm not sure why Mark wants to post stuff where a large potion of the community isn't reading (We've got a fix for this comming soon). As to why Mark doesn't post here, well here is Marks own words why Mark isn't coming back here.


So there you go. Personally, I think his remark needs a few cycles in the no spin zone, with a liberal amount of truthiness added to it. Anyway, I'm going to take the high road and say this.
 
Before Mark started posting, before Mythic even announced the title, the foundation of the Warhammer Alliance community existed and was kindled. For more than three years this site has been about the Warhammer Online community. Today, we have dozens of people volunteering their time and hundreds of thousands of WAR customers visiting our forums. The staff and I are completely commited to providing a comprehensive community resource.
 
To that end we are working on some tools that will end the "where's the dev post" game that exists. I belive the community, and the customer shouldn't have to look in 3, or 4, or even two different places to find out the latest developer musing.
 
In the future, hopefully late this fall, we'll begin syndicating all developer posts, regardless of where they post. What this means, is that if a developer posts at Bobs Sellout Palace, we're going to have that post added to our forums, easily found in our devtracker. Over time we'll search out and begin to syndicate developer posts from wherever they are posting on a regular basis. Those developer posts will then in turn be resyndicated via our developer post RSS feed generator, so other fansites can take those developer posts and post them at their fansites.
 
This ensures that no matter where a developer posts, you'll be able to find the information either here at Warhammer Alliance, or any side that chooses to reproduce the developer posts from our DevRSS feed.
 
That said folks, hang in there we've got even more really cool things in store here at Warhammer Alliance.

Regarding a SCENARIO-FREE Server:

Yes, this is a GOOD idea

Regarding a SCENARIO-FREE Server:

Yes, this is a GOOD idea

At least it's still producing a few lulz before it poops itself and falls over dead.

So...  I see this thread has boarded the bus to crazytown.

If this is an RvR-centric game why is the PVE so grindy? 
...
They have to keep scenarios.  But make lake RVR the best way for renown and xp and gear.  Scenarios need to stay because sometime folks just want to pop in and get in a quick fight.  Variety is good.

This Thread

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

"Well, one of them we hope to put back in," Mark Jacobs told Eurogamer and GamesIndustry.biz when he spoke to us last week.

"I can't tell you which yet, that's a surprise. We're probably going to be replacing one and putting in another class in its place. But we'll be talking about that in a few months."

According to EuroGamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=263782).


Don't think I noticed that before.

stuff

That's great news because I know a lot of people wanted something a little more exciting than the hammerer (and yeah it's pretty much a given they're talking about the hammerer and not the choppa).

My post history on VN

Thread on Warhammer Alliance (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158809)

Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios.  We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it. 

Mark

>>>>Seriously, go look at T3 and T4 quests. Why haven't those been increased in value by 3-400%? Is there any reason at all?

And, we have always spoken about the amount of time it would take to level and, on *most* servers, most players are leveling exactly as quickly as we said they would.  

Mark

Uhhhhh, yea, you missed choices 5 and 6.

5) Increase RvR to the point that scenarios are something you do during offpeak hours.

6) Figure out a way to make sure everyone in any tier knows exactly which RvR zone to go to and offer an instant button-press to get there.

I'm sorry, but some things just have to have the training wheels slapped on them so that people can skip the bullshit (this includes walking across a zone to a damned warcamp).

I do it because from 1-20 I loved this game, even with the RvR deficiencies. Make the rest of the game like Tier 1 with improved RvR and you have me for life (and many others I suspect).

you may ban me now.

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

I want to do just that and that's what I told the team last week.  However, don't you think I should be prepared just in case we're all wrong and the ex-WoW players  would rather play more scenarios no matter if the experience, gear and leveling speed is faster in open RvR and the RvR guys want to do more RvR and less (or no) scenarios?

Mark

People aren't playing scenarios because they are Ex-WoW players. They play for the same reason people masturbate. It's easy and rewarding.

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

Amen. Schild you are on point. I could not agree more.

Also, he seems knowledgeable of the situation and most of all, he agrees with me and I'm a whore.

I agree with Garthilk wholeheartedly.  It's just about the strongest argument for official forums that one can make.

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

30-40 is just a cockblock to the end game. They shouldn't be looking at ways to make it less painful other than lessening the EXP requirements by a shitton post 20. Once again, I reiterate, 1-40 should've gone balls-out fast and been nothing more than a tutorial. Were I running this game, I'd want everyone at 40 within 48 hours played - particularly with how hugemongous the T4 zones are.

Adding a class to the Dwarves and NOT making it the Slayer would be the height of stupidity. Slayers are congealed bits of awesome sauce gravy on a bed of awesome lettuce with awesome bits sprinkled all over. The lore really doesn't have a lot of good dwarf classes other than Slayers.

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

BTW, like our fix for the mail system?  Seems to be working great now.

Mark

Haemish - I never said all our players were WoW or ex-WoW players.  What my point was, and still is, that part of what I believe is going on in the game are due to the different expectations of different groups of players.  Not all WoW players played DAoC/SB and not all DAoC/SB players play WoW.  As much as you might not want to believe that, some players might actually prefer to play in scenarios versus open RvR even if we raise the rewards from open RvR substantially.  And I drew a possible correlation with that approach to players being used to playing in WoW versus DAoC.  So, tone down the drama a bit okay?  I'm a lot of things but not stupid enough to call all our players ex-WoW players because I know they are not.  Like I said in one of my posts in regards to potentially different needs/wants of different players is that we have two choices, believe that all players want the same thing from a game or believe that there are different communities of players within a game.  And I was saying to Schild, I choose to believe the second option and *prepare* to take steps in case I am right.

I have a challenge for anyone that works at Mythic, or anyone else who wants to try it. 

Haemish -

BTW, like our fix for the mail system?  Seems to be working great now.

Mark

Thread on Warhammer Alliance (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158809)

Taking the high road while making plans to implement dev stalking tracking via RSS.  Inter forum drama is da best, greetings to all Warhammer Alliance readers, please make sure to fully read this f13 thread (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=2502.0), before posting.

Since I'm one of them feeble 'carebear' types who wants the games I play to appeal to as many playstyles as possible

Now add an "open all mails" function, an "automatically get attachment when opening a mail" setting, and an "automatically delete mail after taking attachment" setting and it'll all be gravy. :p

Carebear or no, you need to realize that when games try to appeal to everyone, they risk losing appeal to anyone.  Mythic does PvP well... we'd all like to see that nurtured.  Want PvE, play WoW.  They do it best.

Adding a class to the Dwarves and NOT making it the Slayer would be the height of stupidity. Slayers are congealed bits of awesome sauce gravy on a bed of awesome lettuce with awesome bits sprinkled all over. The lore really doesn't have a lot of good dwarf classes other than Slayers.

And should never be challenged?

The biggest issue here, isn't that they didn't announce the Slayer.  It really seems like, if they were going to go with that, they would have said so, because it would have been, optimistically thinking here, a big win population wise for Order.  Same with verifying the Choppa still being around for destruction, since it wouldn't be a population push there, since most of that crowd went for the Black Ork, for now at least.  This reeks of misdirection for all the wrong reasons, and I hope I'm very wrong on this.   It really seems like there should be no reason for not confirming the classes otherwise.

I still stick with what I said in beta... you don't need more or new order classes.  You just need to make the existing order classes look cool.  If I don't want to play a dwarf or a gay elf, I'm stuck with a genero-human as a choice.  That's not much of an option.  Have I mentioned that I really am getting sick of fucking elves?  If I'm going to be stuck playing an elf in a game due to lore at least make the elf look cool.  Is that so much to ask?  A MAN WEARING A DRESS (or a nightgown) ISN'T COOL!  

I still stick with what I said in beta... you don't need more or new order classes.  You just need to make the existing order classes look cool.  If I don't want to play a dwarf or a gay elf, I'm stuck with a genero-human as a choice.  That's not much of an option.  Have I mentioned that I really am getting sick of fucking elves?  If I'm going to be stuck playing an elf in a game due to lore at least make the elf look cool.  Is that so much to ask?  A MAN WEARING A DRESS (or a nightgown) ISN'T COOL!  

I think you may be reading too much into this.  I suspect they announced the Knight first because Order desperately needs folks to roll tanks, and the current ones aren't very appealing for aesthetic reasons.

- Crafting being overly complicated and annoying You tried a little bit to fix this with seed drop rates but came at it wrong - the problem wasn't how much they dropped, the problem was there are far, far too many different kinds that didn't stack with each other. Get rid of all the adjectives like 'wispy/hairy/horny beardweed seed' and just have beardweed seeds. Same for potions while you're at it. If an initiate's healing potion heals 300, and a healing potion heals 300, then nothing is being added to the game by having those names being different other than making it so they don't stack. That is an irritant, and when you put enough irritants together you lose players just as much or more than you do from Big Issues.

I don't know how many of you have made it into Tier 4 yet, but you may not be aware of the potential issues regarding zone capture.

Of course you don't know. You registered for this forum and posted five minutes later. It has been discussed.

This will be entertaining when multiplied 50,000 times.

No.
And that's the only comment I can make on the subject.

I think Schild is loving this.

While we still seem to have some of Mark's attention let me add that adding a /level command like the one found in DAOC would lessen the amount of eye-bleeding involved with trying another class. Granted, DAOC is 50 levels vice WAR's 40, so the /level should give R18 instead of 20 perhaps? That would put you at the Tier 2 rank that no longer needs bolstering. Just a thought.

I'm upset because Mark is actually having dialogue with people (mainly the site's admin Schild). It's crazy, look at what kind of dialogue he is having with this guy, and HE'S TAKING IT ALL VERY SERIOUSLY. Our game is being directly influenced by a minority of jerks like this guy Schild that runs that forum.

The problem with doing that is you want T1 players, T1 battlegrounds are fun, plus you don't want new players to login to see a ghost town either.  I fully agree alts are very important, if you look at long time WoW players they have several max level characters.  I think a lot of the PVE grind complaints would disappear for WAR if they vastly increased the exp/rr rewards for open RVR and also doubled exp for alts once you had one character at T4, or even rank 40. 

The way it is at the minute, I'm going to have a max level Witch hunter, but I dread starting an alt, that's a shame because I'd love to play a Warrior Priest or an Iron breaker.

It continues:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159953

Apparently this is a terrible no-name forum.

Edit - I didn't read down:

Sorry guys, I went to lunch.

I don't bring my phone on lunch. Getting an Android on Wednesday!!!!

Allrite im the guy with the "retarded" name, as if itchees meant crabs or whatever you thought it meant.

Lets see now if it was my post that made you delete it, or my name. By the way, yes its a wall of text, but no its not "starfucking" or "stalking" and i had valid point to make that by tracking dev postings that are pertinent to the game and arent officially published, this is hardly "stalking" but this comment dissapeared as well. My post is not OMG GUYS THE GAME SUX0RZ LAWL and ive worked 2 years in a game company. It was a big thread so yeah i got things to say.

So here it is again, take 2

Jesus christ. You sir, are a fucking maroon.

Yeah but the truth is when people write wallo texto like that its saying i love the game but please make it better. 

This thread is the best thing since... since... 1925 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese_slicer)!

Edit 2: Nothing feels better than pushing 2 buttons and making 30 minutes of work disappear.

Edit 2: Nothing feels better than pushing 2 buttons and making 30 minutes of work disappear.

See, you woulda loved playing UO with Rasix and I!

God, sometimes I wish I had a penis. 

I just spent some time constructing an elaborate joke that somehow managed to involve both Warhammer, Signe and strap-on penises - but luckily I came to my senses before posting it.

Oh my god, Schild's *in* that thread over there.

 :popcorn:

Oh my god, Schild's *in* that thread over there.

 :popcorn:

The thread was linked earlier, but it is already locked. Assuming its the same thread!

There are several.

Oh my god, Schild's *in* that thread over there.

 :popcorn:

Someone give me a link... I beg you.

The whole argument against "walls of text" is idiotic, how can you do a well argumented point about the state of this game with 3 lines of text

The whole argument against "walls of text" is idiotic, how can you do a well argumented point about the state of this game with 3 lines of text

You should have kept Itchees around his a good replacement for grunk:


 :why_so_serious:

So? theyd rather have what, a bunch of people posting witty images that have nothing to do with the OP, than my constructive criticism of the game?

I'd suggest a 1 day delay on new account being able to post. Or not ...  :why_so_serious:

Thanks for the links. 

I went over to WHA to see their side of the story.  You really can't understand nor appreciate the value of any community until you've spent some time with it.  Most of us have been rattling around the same posters for 10+ years... I'm guessing they don't understand that level of familiarity.  They're passionate about WAR and I can certainly appreciate and respect that.  Sadly, it's not really about WAR in this case.  It's about barging into a community that you aren't a part of and beating your chest.  I'm not sure they recognize this as the case... ok, some appear to.

I apologize for the derail.

 

except that EA wanted to shut down UO when they gave it to us but I convinced them to spend more money on the game

I went over to WHA to see their side of the story.  You really can't understand nor appreciate the value of any community until you've spent some time with it.  Most of us have been rattling around the same posters for 10+ years... I'm guessing they don't understand that level of familiarity.  They're passionate about WAR and I can certainly appreciate and respect that.  Sadly, it's not really about WAR in this case.  It's about barging into a community that you aren't a part of and beating your chest.  I'm not sure they recognize this as the case... ok, some appear to.

I'd love for a horde of people to register to write thousand word essays

I have nothing to add to this thread. I just want to point out that it's funny how they come charging in and address MJ directly, like he's the dear abbey of giving a fuck.

I'm talking about registering at those other boards.  For a very specific poster whose feelings are hurt, to drive home a point 'cause the schadenfreude is strong with me today.

WTS:

1 F13 posting account. 625 posts.

Write walls of text to Mark Jacobs without grinding posts and rep!

Only $1500. Paypal only please.

Mark does this thing where he seems to keep a relatively low profile, but then he comes here and shoots from the hip a little, and the crazies flock over here to scream for the attention of their master. It happened with the "UO dev team shitcanned" story when some Stratics retards came over here to yell at him for not posting there.

i read the threads and while i agree with most of the sentiment i must say the admin and mods there are jerks. Epeener jerks who believe that their access to MJ makes them better than anyone else.

i wanted to post there but realized theres no reason, the whining is just as loud there as it is on the VN boards, the whining however is coming from the admins and mods ....

I am amazed MJ cannot see the trap there tbh. MJ has already explained while he agrees with most of the points there he cannot snap his fingers and make it happen instantly. And yet the admin and mods keep trolling him telling to do it now do it now do it now cos they know better .. its a sucker trap, MJ should never respond like that . Its foolish to respond to threads like that , they are just attention wh0ring with him as an audience. And now they got him, they wont let go.

Only thing i can say about f13 is this place is full of stone cold tolls tards.

I mean you can't go 1 page without seeing a troll...damn the mods in this forum must have an easy job.
& i'm not happy about the state of RVR now but i'm overall happy about warhammer as a game.
It's a casual game that have great features & fun to play though it needs like 3 months to be polished but that's all fine.

One thing i believe is that MJ needs to leave these trolls alone.
Man you did a good job on the game & if the whiners don't shut up then leave the...nothing you can do about tards you know....it's their nature.

Why would any dev listen to anybody anywhere? That's a serious question. I don't think we are special and unique snowflakes here. I think we type in mostly well-documented English. Perhaps that seperates F13 from other forums. I don't know, and I don't want to find out.

Gift that keeps giving. These guys are awesome.

Mark does this thing where he seems to keep a relatively low profile, but then he comes here and shoots from the hip a little, and the crazies flock over here to scream for the attention of their master. It happened with the "UO dev team shitcanned" story when some Stratics retards came over here to yell at him for not posting there.

When do we raise our banner and attack back? Apparently this is customary in these kinds of internet turf wars.

I'm down. You guys don't realize it, but I actually make an effort to behave here. In my natural state, I'm even more insufferable.

stalker shit

stalker shit

Geez!
It hurts my eyes to see so much retardation on the internet. It looks like 4chan is down and /b/ let out all its users.

Mark, I freaking love you. And I'm not being sarcastic or stalker-ish now.
I love WAR. It's like your not-hot-but-cute girlfriend: she's got her quirks but you love her.
There're a few things I'd change, but as I see, they're on their way. So, as a patriot, I'll wait for the patches and just be happy that it's being worked on.
Imagine that WAR wasn't being updated...?

Keep up the good work!

F13 does not house a majority of their player base. It houses the vast minority of verbally disruptive, rude, and entitled players.

I didn't think there would be a place where mental retards who just want the chance to flame a games designer exisisted!

Boy those people need to learn some maners and respect .... although saying that 1/2 the post here these days feel like they were written by a 9 year old retard filled to the brim with coffee!


Good to see old MJ defending himself and not letting the retards get away with flamming comments, but personaly he should just ignore them ... getting a respence is like giving a kid a new toy ... they will just sceam even more next time for the next toy!

Mythic "flattered" by Warcraft's imitation combat
Blizzad's latest move to introduce open world PVP combat to World of Warcraft is "absolutely a reaction to Warhammer," according to Mark Jacobs, CEO of Mythic.

Speaking to GamesIndustry.biz, Jacobs talked about the latest PVP features to be included in the World of Warcraft expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, many of which, he claims, are based on Warhammer Online.

"Oh absolutely," responded Jacobs, when asked if this was a move by Blizzard to position World of Warcraft against Warhammer Online. "I think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

"You have a game that's been out for four years, they've never put in world PVP like ours, they've never been able to level through PVP like in ours. I think it's absolutely a reaction to Warhammer," Jacobs added. "It wasn't like all of a sudden the idea of open world PVP or levelling through PVP came into their heads and went 'nobody's ever done this before'."

"I don't think it was accidental that they're talking about doing it when Warhammer comes out. Four years and suddenly, miraculously, at the same time Warhammer comes out that's when they start talking about these things... I think it was Jeff Kaplan who said they like to look at other games and learn from them - well, I'm flattered."

Mythic's CEO, went on to discuss the uncertainty involved in predicting how many of the currently registered users will be converted into paying subscribers, following the end of the 30 day free trial that comes packaged with the boxed product.

"If we're successful, we'll have a high conversion rate and we'll keep the vast majority of our subs," he explained, adding: "No one has been billed yet, so we won't know this really for at least several months, in terms of how well we're doing, unless we start off horribly."

"Everything we've done internally, in terms of looking at internal polls, people posting on forums, emails from people, all we've seen so far is that we're well on track."

Mark Jacob's full interview with GamesIndustry.biz can be found here (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/mmo-war).

I didn't think there would be a place where mental retards who just want the chance to flame a games designer exisisted!

snip

Who said "new"?  Blizzard said half of the WoW players who left for WAR came back.  Mythic is now saying WoW is copying WAR for pvp level advancement.  It's a press release pointing out an alternative, it's not meant for us, it's meant for ex-WoW players, current WoW players or potential WoW players.

Who said "new"?  Blizzard said half of the WoW players who left for WAR came back.  Mythic is now saying WoW is copying WAR for pvp level advancement.  It's a press release pointing out an alternative, it's not meant for us, it's meant for ex-WoW players, current WoW players or potential WoW players.

Do we really want to troll back through who said what first? I can find comments from Barnett that dis WoW very easily.

I really don't care if Mythic and Blizzard get into a pissing contest - it's really all just  :popcorn: for us anyway. What I hate is Mythic trying to act all innocent and outraged just because Blizzard said some things that most people agree with.

Really?  That's great, when is it going live?

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

Somebody mentioned tattoos as a possible replacement for armour on Slayer characters.

I keep seeing these new guys posting hoping for some quality material, but it looks like we are through the mouthbreather phase and on to the possible "hey maybe I'll not hump legs and scream from mark's attention" crowd.

Part of me is disappointed, the other relieved.

Welcome, non-idiots!

lol this forum is like North Korea. If you don't agree with the management, your out.

lol this forum is like North Korea. If you don't agree with the management, your out.

It's called 'Stalinizing Posts' and has a long tradition. Don't mock our traditions!

Did that one guy mean "stone cold TROLL TURDS"?  because "trolls tards" isn't making any sense to me.  He must have meant "troll turds".  I'm sure of it.  Anyway, hello to all the new people!   Please stay!  :vv: 

I miss thejeni.  Maybe these are her heavy hitters.

... okay?
Well it should say on the registration page: "We keep the right to Stalinize all your posts. It's tradition".

I would like to say that WOW is a much better game than warhammer which will ultimately fail and turn into a niche product). All the warhammer players that keep hoping their game will improve are just delusional and shouldn't be wasting their time arguing about something that won't improve and that they will probably quit in a month when WOTLK comes out.

You are mixing board mythology!  "Heavy hitters" was some other retard whose name escapes me at the moment.  He wasn't quite at the level of the Big Four (itchees, thejeni, Vajuras, Grunk, I'd add $P$Money but thats before this board's time) but he was close.  Damn, now I won't be able to sleep until I find the original reference.   :|

lol this forum is like North Korea. If you don't agree with the management, your out.

Did that one guy mean "stone cold TROLL TURDS"?  because "trolls tards" isn't making any sense to me.  He must have meant "troll turds".  I'm sure of it.  Anyway, hello to all the new people!   Please stay!  :vv: 

I miss thejeni.  Maybe these are her heavy hitters.

Oh and just wanted to add that the slayer does not make sense to be added in the game. A slayer is supposed to be a dwarf who, and here i quote wikipedia, "suffered a great shame, loss or humiliation" and "He will then go out into the world, seeking out an honorable death in combat". This game is based on an IP which it must follows so I doubt that Gameworkshop will allow that.

I don't know about basement dwellers, but most of us here are long time community veterans who love gaming and who generally know what we are talking about.

I, for one, dwell in an attic. With my equally aged sister and other younger siblings. Our mother has left us in the care of our grandmother, but promised she'll be back any day now. For now, we feast on donuts.

... I know where that came from, and I'm ashamed :ye_gods:

Level 22 just hit me in the junk. I now have a total of 2 quests in my current racial area. To get to those quests, I have to fight through mobs that are 5-8 levels above me, and who knows what level the quest mobs are. That's it, there are no other quests being given in the Talabacland area. Which really means I have to hit the scenarios or use up the content in other racial areas (which will kill my ability to experience new content with alts). And the rewards for those quests will probably not go over 4000 xp - which is roughly 2% of my level or less? WTF? There has got to be a decimal point missing in some table somewhere, because that is totally fuxx0red. People are running Tor Anroc because there's just nothing else to do for experience.

It's called 'Stalinizing Posts' and has a long tradition. Don't mock our traditions!

I'm new here, so these may have been discussed already

You know ... I looked at the "f13 guys/gals" website yesterday. And ... wow .. what a bunch of whining, prattling children! MMO 'veterans' my a$$. All you have over there are hardcore MMO 'grinders' and gold farmers.

I've been playing MMO's/MUD's for nearly two decades, and these 'kids' at f13 don't remind me of anyone from my Me59, UO, Avalon, etc. days. At best, they've played Shadowbane, DAoC and WoW--and think they have the authority to tell every other MMO gamer what to think. It's pretty damn hilarious, to be honest.

If MJ doesn't want to post here, that's fine: He's only shooting himself in the foot, however, by doing so.

What about allowing guild banners to be planted at PQs as well as in RvR areas and then having a tele-port to banner ability?

GUYS, STOP GOLD FARMING. JESUS.

The spawn time on jesus is too long for effective farming.

damm dat got dang f13 webbsite sure is dum

Man. 100 pages here we come. Only thing that's going to blunt this is MJ posting in the Bioware/LA annoucement today.

I think that's a valid observation in general, however I don't necessarily think it applies in this case. They're a fansite that feels slighted, one-upped by a bunch of nobodies in some site they had to google. It's the entitlement thing mentioned by others here. They're Warhammer Alliance, only doing one thing. So of course they should be the eipcenter of all things WAR and how dare Mythic send official representation anywhere else. So instead of accepting that they didn't do things well enough and maybe, ya know, changing, they lash out. Introspection is hard and stuff. The icing is just the irony of them thinking we're doing something better over here, in a sub-game forum probably graveyard'ed before Christmas  :awesome_for_real:

lol this forum is like North Korea. If you don't agree with the management, your out.