1.2 - Legacy etc.

[Paelos]

But I'm going to dig my heels in on the unfinished thing. That's nothing but unrealistic expectations and entitlement. It is literally impossible for an MMO to come out that will make everyone happy with its exact feature set.

The endgame wasn't ready. Gamebreaking bugs that were rampant in beta were rampant at release. Itemization had duplications that weren't exposed in QA. Systems in Ilum broke down.

You're being obtuse over semantics. It's not entitlement to expect that a month post-release you shouldn't be running into 5 mans and raids that may or may not be completable due to mechanical issues.

[Rokal]

And as you say, LFD was patched in later. As was appearance tabs. And some of the end game. And is the UI moddable yet? A slew of stuff...and yet they basically can't fix the blandness at the core of it. TOR at least has a great setting and interesting stuff to do (for casual players, I guess).

The Rift UI was customizable in a big way from Day 1: similar to what was shown in the SWTOR 1.2 video, just better (more action bars, sleeker, etc.). But yes, it also has full mod support now and has had it for 6+ months.

I'm in Ingmar's boat though. People saying the game was unfinished when it launched are crazy, or just have unrealistic expectations. SWTOR launched in pretty good shape and, short of LFD, they're patching in the features they need to at an acceptable pace. No MMO, to my knowledge, has ever launched with a good LFD system. It's a complex feature that is completely useless unless you implement it right. LFD wouldn't really fix the big problems with SWTOR end-game anyway, which are design problems.

[Nebu]

I'm debating that key features should have been in at release.  Features that EVERY AAA budget MMO should have at release in the current market.  That has nothing to do with whether I like the game or not. 

Hell Ingmar, I'd wager that I play SWTOR more than nearly everyone here.  It's a good game.  I would have rather they spent their resources on mechanics and gameplay than voice acting and weak story.

[Threash]

Not asking for much, are you 

Been waiting 15 years + for someone to get it right.  They've had more resources to do it than anyone before them... and THEY BLEW IT!   

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that i need around 30-50 million to make my own damn game in order to get what i want.

[eldaec]

Holy crap I just watched the trailer again and it has inquisitor pants in it.

[Ingmar]

I'm debating that key features should have been in at release.  Features that EVERY AAA budget MMO should have at release in the current market.  That has nothing to do with whether I like the game or not. 

Hell Ingmar, I'd wager that I play SWTOR more than nearly everyone here.  It's a good game.  I would have rather they spent their resources on mechanics and gameplay than voice acting and weak story.

If you played it a little less you wouldn't need those features so fast. 

[Nevermore]

I am largely disappointed in the species unlock system they've talked about so far.

In fact, disappointed is the wrong word. Incredulous would be more fitting. I really cannot see the logic behind it. Playing a species to 50 unlocks it for use in classes that species was previously unavailable for. Call me crazy but doesn't the average player seek an entirely new experience for their next character? More importantly, what happens when I get that character to 50?

Example: I roll a Chiss Imperial Agent. I hit level 50, and therefore unlock Chiss Smuggler etc. I roll a Chiss Smuggler. I hit level 50.... what now? Oh hai loop.


I'm aware it would be naive of me to believe they'd actually bother allowing us to play one of the dozens of other races already present in the game (ho ho ho, without some sort of monetary exchange? EA thinks not) but the system as they've described it currently is bafflingly obtuse. Here's hoping the species for credits unlock thing is at least affordable. As a Human Jedi Knight Sentinel player, I already feel like I've done everything wrong since starting the game.

I already told you like 4 times that you can spend credits to unlock races as well, so you don't have to get a particular race to 50.  They haven't said how much it'll cost yet, though.

[Ingmar]

I would be kind of surprised if it will be cheap enough that the first character someone is leveling could afford it before 50.

Technically they said "in game currency" rather than credits, which means it could be through commendations too.

[caladein]

The end-game is plenty ready.  I've run into just as many unmanageable bugs or inconsistencies in Heroic Dragon Soul as I have in Hard Eternity Vault/Karagga's Palace.  And now a few months later, they're both fine (just let South finish first).

[Lakov_Sanite]

You mean the complete lack of creativity, setting and story?

Dude, SWTOR had it's setting, story and creativity handed to it in a pre-packaged mint condition blister pack with lucas stamped all over it.  Nothing about SWTOR is original beyond changing some names around in the setting.  For fuck's sake you have a smuggler with a wookie sidekick...seriously.  Now I know wow is no better in that dept, warcraft3 established it though both games did expand to some degree on established lore, the groundwork was done.

The problem with Rift was that they were trying to introduce a setting like wow without having first had their own warcraft.  I'm not sure the setting was terrible but it really needed more time in the incubation chamber first to refine it and turn it into something memorable.

SWTOR has no excuse when it comes to mechanics, the game was essentially written when it comes to storyline and most of the systems were just lifted wholesale from other games.  It's DIKU, there's not a lot of shit that's new.  Sure the voice acting was all a nice touch and I'm not sure how much development time it took to get ready but it couldn't have been much.

[Simond]

So what happened to "one planet per patch per month" anyway?

Same thing as Hero Classes

[Fordel]

 




Is this how the game works?

[Simond]

Wrong sci-fi MMO with "Star" in the title.

[Sjofn]

I am largely disappointed in the species unlock system they've talked about so far.

In fact, disappointed is the wrong word. Incredulous would be more fitting. I really cannot see the logic behind it. Playing a species to 50 unlocks it for use in classes that species was previously unavailable for. Call me crazy but doesn't the average player seek an entirely new experience for their next character? More importantly, what happens when I get that character to 50?

Example: I roll a Chiss Imperial Agent. I hit level 50, and therefore unlock Chiss Smuggler etc. I roll a Chiss Smuggler. I hit level 50.... what now? Oh hai loop.

Nevermore has told you four times, but perhaps me also telling you will help: You can unlock races with credits.

But no, I don't think people think the different species are anything but cosmetic, rather than an "entirely new experience." So if they really like the Chiss, being able to roll their next class as a Chiss is awesome.

[FieryBalrog]

But no, I don't think people think the different species are anything but cosmetic, rather than an "entirely new experience." So if they really like the Chiss, being able to roll their next class as a Chiss is awesome.

I think what he meant was, people generally diversify their races, go for something new, even if they really like a particular race.

At least from my observation.

[Sjofn]

Yes, I figured that's what he meant. But I don't think people generally do that.

[Koyasha]

Yeah, I tend to pick the races I like and play them exclusively.  In WoW that was night elves and draenei, except for classes that weren't available to those.  Or horde side, blood elves and orcs.  In SWTOR I have a lot of twi'leks, primarily because I goddamn hate hoods and I don't want to EVER have to deal with a hood-up so a lot of the reasoning for playing twi'lek is purely to avoid that.  Even without that, though, it's pretty much just Twi'lek, Chiss, Human that I have much of any interest in.  Theoretically I'm interested in playing a Sith Pureblood to see reactions, but I honestly expect that the dialogue differences, if any, are so incredibly minor as to be barely-noticeable.

[Mattemeo]

Here's hoping the species for credits unlock thing is at least affordable.

Clearly it bears repeating so much I even noted it in my original post 

[eldaec]

Bearing in mind that your guys are all meant to be related somehow, it kind of makes sense that you can make them all the same race.

[Amaron]

Looks like a great patch.   Unfortunately it also seems like it will be coming out after D3.

[apocrypha]

Unfortunately it also seems like it will be coming out after D3.

Oh dear.

I really hoped that the quality of life issues in SWTOR wouldn't drive me away, but after going back to WoW the last couple of days and being unavoidably aware of just how much better WoW is in every single way except for the voice acting I think it's too little, too late for me.

I don't want to be one of those people who hangs around in theads for games I no longer play, sniping, because that's an incredibly annoying thing to do, so all I'll say further is that it was actually really nice to meet some f13'ers in-game for once and that maybe I'll revisit it in 6+ months time. I got 2-3 months of play out of it, which isn't bad really!

[DraconianOne]

Here's hoping the species for credits unlock thing is at least affordable.

Clearly it bears repeating so much I even noted it in my original post 

Wrong word - it'll always be affordable to those who can afford it. But it probably won't be cheap.

[eldaec]

I hope it is incredibly expensive.

I'll play humans anyway, and like the idea of seeing a few but not many blue jedi and green sith.

[Falconeer]

From this article.

Class changes in 1.2 include new abilities for the Warrior and the Knight, a nerf for the Bounty Hunter,

What did I miss? A nerf for the Bounty Hunter but not for the Trooper? That would prove my conspiracy theory that BHs vent out heat quicker than Troopers recharge ammo. Not to mention channeled skills...

[eldaec]

More buttons for the Knight, awesome, Ingmar will be pleased.

Also, it says in there you'll only be able to use legacy abilities when using your 20 minute exciting-music cooldown, which also means only in places you can use companions.

Which makes quite a bit of sense, both in restricting overpowered shit, and making the exciting-music cooldown more exciting.

[Sky]

I read it as more that it's on a shared CD with the same restrictions, not activated with the music ability.

Sad face about the BH nerf, hope they aren't targeting shieldtechs, because things slowed to a crawl on Ilum without dps (Mako in heal mode and me tanking).

[Jherad]

What did I miss? A nerf for the Bounty Hunter but not for the Trooper? That would prove my conspiracy theory that BHs vent out heat quicker than Troopers recharge ammo. Not to mention channeled skills...

Yeah, my understanding is that BHs have more effective energy than Troopers, and I know Death From Above channels evenly whilst Mortar Volley is completely backloaded. I'd also heard something about Full Auto not being quite equal to the BH version, but I've not noticed anything in particular.

With some of these differences between Republic and Empire abilities (particularly channels), I do wonder if they were done by two different teams, with little more than bullet points on a whiteboard for reference.

[Koyasha]

From this article.

Class changes in 1.2 include new abilities for the Warrior and the Knight, a nerf for the Bounty Hunter,

What did I miss? A nerf for the Bounty Hunter but not for the Trooper? That would prove my conspiracy theory that BHs vent out heat quicker than Troopers recharge ammo. Not to mention channeled skills...

Ammo is made of chunks, heat is granular, I think that's the reason why heat feels faster than ammo.  They recharge at the same rate, but with ammo you have to wait for a full chunk to recharge while heat only needs to come back to a particular percentage point.

[Lantyssa]

Nevermore has told you four times, but perhaps me also telling you will help: You can unlock races with credits.

To be fair, I could roll up a Republican Sith for free, but Mattemeo would have to spend credits.  You should get a free unlock if you get a race to 50 that is human or already unlocked.

[Falconeer]

While the delay thing between channeled Vanguard and Powertech skills is obvious and factual and demonstrated, the thing about power usage and regen is definitely not something I'd put my money on, still trying to determine it. I just watched over and over the video of a Powertech doing very high damage and noticing he seldom runs out of ammo (overheat in his case) regardless of what he does. Considering I've been playing for a long time with what is pretty much the top pvp equipment (and relative mod-twinking) and with his same spec (I asked him about it), not only I wonder how he can pull out such damage (difference in timing of channeled skills is certainly one reason), but most importantly how can he do that without even stressing his energy bar that much. That bothered me a lot, on top of Bioware stupidity in the lobnger animations issue which is still not fixed after 2 months. It's already annoying enough, but to move to ranked PvP with that shitty imbalance would be very annoying.

Here's the video I'm talking about. 648k Powertech in Voidstar, good grief.

[Jherad]

12 Ammo, Heat goes from 0 to 100.

Comparing two abilities:

Stock Strike - costs 2 ammo.
Rocket Punch - generates 16 heat.

Rocket punch 'should' be 16.666 heat, but is rounded down. The argument from the min-maxers is that over the course of an extended fight, these rounding differences add up (as many of the bread and butter abilities cost 2 ammo/16 heat).

Meh.

[Zetor]

IIRC there's a 4% discrepancy due to quantization of cells vs heat (12 ammo cells = 96 units, 100 heat = 100 units, but all skills cost the same ammo/heat). edit: aww, ninja'd by Jherad

The bigger differences are the death from above / mortar volley and unload / full auto animations that result in evenly distributed damage for BHs, but backloaded damage for troopers (in fact, you can move 0.5sec before your mortar animation finishes and the last missile will still land). It's kinda clownshoes and I got peeved the first few times my mortar volley failed to interrupt a cap because of the ridonkolous 2-second wind-up time. Oh well!

[Falconeer]

I think that is the case. It's rounded down, giving an advantage to the Powertech, especially due to the aforementioned granularity: the needed amount of energy comes back to execute a skill comes back to a BH earlier than it does to a Trooper, since heat goes down at 3%/tick while takes longer to restore a full chunk-ammo. All combined, longer animations and delayed channels, that explains to me the difference in Powertech max DPS over Vanguard max DPS. Not sure about Mercs/Comms but it's probably similar.

Simply put, no matter how little, a Powertech is more PvP-efficient than a Vanguard. And that's not just about the DPS race, it's about winning games considering that sometimes a fraction of seconds determines the difference between a win or a loss. As a vanguard, good players can interrupt my channels before they start doing any damage since they can see the casting bar before it hits them. Ion cannon being the most affected by this crap.

Ah well, bummer. But I don't remember shit like this since the Age of Conan debacle with women chars being handicapped in melee fighting due to animations timing. Took them months to fix it too.

[Sky]

Without clicking....you linked a pvp video, didn't you Falc.

For fuck's sake, split the code. EQ2 did it in 2004.

(See I can be grumpy, too!)

[Falconeer]

You want to know another AMAZING thing EQ2 did at the time (well, Hartsman did it), around 2006? Not only they added PvP to their ultra-PvE game, with the not so complicated but seriously awesome mechanic of the split code, but they added a third player faction on the run one year later, the "without-faction" ones, because obviously a game with PvP could not function with only two sides.

Sad thing number 1: Hartsman forgot about it and didn't do anything like that in Rift.

Sad thing number 2: They will claim it's too hard to do it for SWTOR so they probably won't ever do it (I'd love to be proven wrong). So harder than it was in EQ2? One wonders...