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Author Topic: 1.2 - Legacy etc.  (Read 7069 times)
Rendakor
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Reply #140 on: March 07, 2012, 12:30:19 pm

Except EQ2's 'third' PVP faction (Exiles) fucking ruined the game, as 90% of the players betrayed to Exile for PVE reasons and you ended up with an FFA PVP ruleset instead of a two (or three) faction system. Aside from the split-code you guys like to froth about, everything about PVP in EQ2 was godawful and broken and that game should never be brought up as an example of how to do PVP right in an MMO.

"I think it's time for a dose of F13 RED PILL MOTHER FUCKERS" ~cosapi

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Draegan
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Reply #141 on: March 07, 2012, 12:33:39 pm

I remember EQ2's pvp being awful.  As in, I tried playing and all that happened was I kept getting ganked by uber-decked out twinks on carpets every 5 minutes, in every zone for leveling.

No thank you.

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Sky
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Reply #142 on: March 07, 2012, 12:35:21 pm

Well...yeah. I never pvp'd in EQ2, I couldn't care less.

But I also never had to deal with shit like nerfs because ability X is kerpwning everyone in pvp.

So that would be a pretty good thing to implement.

The Wily Brush: Man vs Paint

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Fordel
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Reply #143 on: March 07, 2012, 12:37:20 pm

Mortar Volley used to be 4 ticks at one point in Beta. They removed a tick but didn't change the animation.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Simond
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Reply #144 on: March 07, 2012, 01:54:05 pm

As in, I tried playing and all that happened was I kept getting ganked by uber-decked out twinks on carpets every 5 minutes, in every zone for leveling.
That's world PvP in every diku, though.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Falconeer
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Reply #145 on: March 07, 2012, 04:17:03 pm

You are missing the point. PvP in EQ2 was not right, it's definitely not an example of PvP done right. It couldn't be, seriously. It just proved that yes you can add a third PvP faction on the fly, and yes you can do split PVE/PVP powers and skills.

eldaec
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Reply #146 on: March 07, 2012, 04:26:25 pm

IIRC there's a 4% discrepancy due to quantization of cells vs heat (12 ammo cells = 96 units, 100 heat = 100 units, but all skills cost the same ammo/heat). edit: aww, ninja'd by Jherad

The bigger differences are the death from above / mortar volley and unload / full auto animations that result in evenly distributed damage for BHs, but backloaded damage for troopers (in fact, you can move 0.5sec before your mortar animation finishes and the last missile will still land). It's kinda clownshoes and I got peeved the first few times my mortar volley failed to interrupt a cap because of the ridonkolous 2-second wind-up time. Oh well!

The thing I find amusing is that we're still fucking this up even after AoC.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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Rendakor
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Reply #147 on: March 07, 2012, 05:00:45 pm

You are missing the point. PvP in EQ2 was not right, it's definitely not an example of PvP done right. It couldn't be, seriously. It just proved that yes you can add a third PvP faction on the fly, and yes you can do split PVE/PVP powers and skills.
Except adding that third faction effectively emptied the other two (since you could just betray to it and didn't need to reroll). You are trying to use EQ2 to make a point that was blatantly incorrect. Please stop.

"I think it's time for a dose of F13 RED PILL MOTHER FUCKERS" ~cosapi

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Nebu
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Reply #148 on: March 07, 2012, 05:13:33 pm

You are trying to use EQ2 to make a point that was blatantly incorrect. Please stop.

I thought he was saying that EQ2 changed things on the fly (put damage on a different system than pve and added a 3rd faction) and that SWTOR could too if they wanted to.  I think he has a point.

I will agree with the rest of you that EQ2's pvp was complete shit.   

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Merusk
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Reply #149 on: March 07, 2012, 05:15:35 pm

I can drop a V8 in a 69 Firebird, surely I can do the same to a Toyota Prius.

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I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
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Nebu
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Reply #150 on: March 07, 2012, 05:16:41 pm

I can drop a V8 in a 69 Firebird, surely I can do the same to a Toyota Prius.

Don't you watch Top Gear?   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Rendakor
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Reply #151 on: March 07, 2012, 05:30:22 pm

The fact that skills worked differently in PVP and PVE is a good thing EQ2 did. Adding a 'third' faction was a bad thing.

"I think it's time for a dose of F13 RED PILL MOTHER FUCKERS" ~cosapi

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eldaec
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Reply #152 on: March 07, 2012, 05:36:29 pm

As in, I tried playing and all that happened was I kept getting ganked by uber-decked out twinks on carpets every 5 minutes, in every zone for leveling.
That's world PvP in every diku, though.

Classic Daoc didn't have this problem.

You solve it by not having exponentially better and better gear.

I'll take a cheque if EA is listening.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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Fordel
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Reply #153 on: March 07, 2012, 05:55:33 pm

Classic DaoC didn't have world PvP, unless you are talking about the dreds, which certainly had that kind of camping.


If you didn't enter the RvR zones, you had zero chance of being ganked by anyone in DaoC.



I'm still for stat caps though.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Mattemeo
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Reply #154 on: March 07, 2012, 06:08:27 pm

Classic DaoC didn't have world PvP, unless you are talking about the dreds, which certainly had that kind of camping.
If you didn't enter the RvR zones, you had zero chance of being ganked by anyone in DaoC.

Early on there were several ways to break into an opposing realm. I distinctly remember playing a baby Mid waaay back when (I believe it was a Kobold Runecaster, even) and seeing some Albs running around the starter area eating babies or some such.

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Fordel
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Reply #155 on: March 07, 2012, 07:27:58 pm

Classic DaoC didn't have world PvP, unless you are talking about the dreds, which certainly had that kind of camping.
If you didn't enter the RvR zones, you had zero chance of being ganked by anyone in DaoC.

Early on there were several ways to break into an opposing realm. I distinctly remember playing a baby Mid waaay back when (I believe it was a Kobold Runecaster, even) and seeing some Albs running around the starter area eating babies or some such.


Yea, there were zone wall holes, but those were bugs and the CSR's would step in pretty rapidly in my experience. One of the few times you actually saw the little gemstones on live realms.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Draegan
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Reply #156 on: March 08, 2012, 07:13:21 am

It just proved that yes you can add a third PvP faction on the fly, and yes you can do split PVE/PVP powers and skills.

Oh right, I'll agree with that.

I'll edit to add that while you can add a third faction on the fly, the mechanics and incentives of switching were not done properly.

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Koyasha
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Reply #157 on: March 08, 2012, 07:22:29 am

I will argue that while in most MMO's you can add a third faction easily enough, that doesn't really apply to SWTOR because every class would need an entirely new story written and recorded.  In EQ2 it was a matter of a few additional NPC's and setting up the correct faction flags - once those were set, all the normal NPC interactions applied based on your current standing.

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Nebu
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Reply #158 on: March 08, 2012, 07:30:34 am

I will argue that while in most MMO's you can add a third faction easily enough, that doesn't really apply to SWTOR because every class would need an entirely new story written and recorded.  In EQ2 it was a matter of a few additional NPC's and setting up the correct faction flags - once those were set, all the normal NPC interactions applied based on your current standing.

Empire, Republic, Mercenaries.

There, I just added a third faction.  You can always align with a faction until level 50 and then choose your own side.  No story changes required.  Just give each some balanced benefit and people might self-select for which they prefer.

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Mattemeo
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Reply #159 on: March 08, 2012, 07:35:02 am

I felt right from the beginning that both Smugglers and Bounty Hunters should have been available to both Empire and Republic. Having them as their own mini-faction would be interesting as well but mechanically harder given the way the Story runs within the game. But I think Smuggler and Bounty Hunter stories could be very easily tweaked to work for either class, with relatively few changes. Bear in mind that I've only experienced BH/Smuggler content to the late 20s, though.

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Koyasha
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Reply #160 on: March 08, 2012, 08:56:37 am

I will argue that while in most MMO's you can add a third faction easily enough, that doesn't really apply to SWTOR because every class would need an entirely new story written and recorded.  In EQ2 it was a matter of a few additional NPC's and setting up the correct faction flags - once those were set, all the normal NPC interactions applied based on your current standing.

Empire, Republic, Mercenaries.

There, I just added a third faction.  You can always align with a faction until level 50 and then choose your own side.  No story changes required.  Just give each some balanced benefit and people might self-select for which they prefer.
Doesn't work.  None of the dialogue or storylines acknowledge you being a 'mercenary'.  You have to write new dialogue for that.  You can't throw a 'mercenary' into the Trooper storyline without significant changes, or either Jedi storyline, or the Sith storylines, or the Imperial Agent storyline.

The bounty hunter and smuggler storylines are (as far as I have played) indeed much closer to being 'independent' and they should have been set up that way from the start.  You probably could theoretically split those two off into their own faction by tweaking the stories a bit.  At least, up to the point I have played them.

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Sky
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Reply #161 on: March 08, 2012, 10:29:06 am

TOR was originally going to have a Hutt faction, I was pretty bummed when they pulled that early on.

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Falconeer
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Reply #162 on: March 08, 2012, 01:11:48 pm

You are missing the point. PvP in EQ2 was not right, it's definitely not an example of PvP done right. It couldn't be, seriously. It just proved that yes you can add a third PvP faction on the fly, and yes you can do split PVE/PVP powers and skills.
Except adding that third faction effectively emptied the other two (since you could just betray to it and didn't need to reroll). You are trying to use EQ2 to make a point that was blatantly incorrect. Please stop.

No, the point is three factions, or more, are necessary in any game that has open PvP, and so making the Exiles in EQ2 was a good idea and an amazing effort. The way they fucked it up, and that you keep mentioning, was pretty amusing and would be hard to replicate it in a new game. EQ2 has been used as an example of a team trying to make PvP without forgetting rule #1 (two sides are just wrong if you have open world PvP) and rule #2 (don't mess PvE skills due to PvP and vice versa), but no one said EQ2 was PvP done right. Stop missing the point.


I'll edit to add that while you can add a third faction on the fly, the mechanics and incentives of switching were not done properly.

Yes. That's for sure. They pulled out a great thing, only to make it rot when it didn't behave as they planned. I think we all agree that to make those mechanics right, after all they've done, would have been the easiest thing. There were obvious viable solutions, and still they did... not much. Pretty sure they didn't have the resources or the incentives to do so anymore at that point.

Let's archive EQ2 and add the fucking Hutt faction to SWTOR pretty please.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 01:19:05 pm by Falconeer »

Sky
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Reply #163 on: March 08, 2012, 01:22:19 pm

And the broker!


 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

The Wily Brush: Man vs Paint

"I want to get off MR BONES WILD RIDE"
"I have not seen a penis yet." - Signe
"I don't think the penis invasion will ever be as bad as anyone predicted" - Falconeer
waylander
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Reply #164 on: March 08, 2012, 01:48:37 pm

OMG! Guild Banks! That's so 10 years ago!

Flashpoints don't interest me unless they drop columi weapons, implants, earpieces, and rating 136 mods.  Right now you cannot get anythhing other than columi armor from flashpoints so they lose their replayability value once you've got a set of armor.

A new warzone and warzone rankings!!! OMG, but honestly PVP sucks in this game because crowd control is OUT of control.  The resolve bar always seems to be down so you are stunned, knocked back, slowed, yanked back again by a merc, and then knocked down by an operative. If you happen to still be alive after all of this happening to you within the pace of 10 to 15 seconds, maybe your resolve bar will save you from another chain CC sequence for a whole 3 seconds.  

I'm legacy level 20 something on my main, but I'd be happy if legacy levels just helped your ALT's to level faster.

Improved Textures!!!! So I can lag more in Ilum doing the daily and weekly because the 1.1.5 patche that tried to give Ilum credit for Warzone kills was a horrible failure!

New appearance options!!! So we can go back to mid summer beta, and get a return of the feature to allow matching outfits!

New Corellia dailies! Because the daily commendation vendor selections are so limited that we want to give you more dailies to do to get more commendations to hoard since there will be nothing on the vendors worth a crap to buy after a few hardmode flashpoint runs!

Min-Pets!!  So we can all lag out more while standing around in the Fleet!

Anyway a lot of 1.2 should have really been in at release, but one thing that really bugs me is that there is no real sense of community in this game.  Their absolute reluctance to put up server specific forums, IMHO, makes this game feel somewhat lifeless.  It is very hard to recruit for a guild, manage PR, etc when you're lumped in the official forums trying to talk or bump threads over several other servers at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 01:51:28 pm by waylander »

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Sky
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Reply #165 on: March 08, 2012, 02:08:44 pm

I'm legacy level 20 something on my main, but I'd be happy if legacy levels just helped your ALT's to level faster.
Oh gods no. I am constantly overleveling everything. Wish they'd put in xp locks, ffs.

The Wily Brush: Man vs Paint

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"I have not seen a penis yet." - Signe
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Nebu
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Reply #166 on: March 08, 2012, 02:19:36 pm

Oh gods no. I am constantly overleveling everything. Wish they'd put in xp locks, ffs.

Xp locks would be a good idea.  I'd love it if my legacy level allowed me to level only through the story quest.  After leveling enough toons to get to almost legacy 30, I'm tired of the kill and fetch-me quests.  My replay value is in the different story arcs, not the time wasters required to be the appropriate level for the story arcs.

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Jherad
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Reply #167 on: March 08, 2012, 05:34:18 pm

You'd have to allow PvP to level you also though - I really don't want the sub 50 warzones to be ruined with twinkage.
koro
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Reply #168 on: March 08, 2012, 06:22:22 pm

I dunno, would it really be ruined? Assuming we're talking WoW-style battlegorund twinking here, of course. WoW's twinking revolved around getting all sorts of weird rare gear way before you were really meant to due to oversights when assigning quests minimum levels along with things like enchants meant for people far above your level. I don't really see how much of that would or could apply to TOR, seeing as how everything equipment-wise is pretty strictly level-gated.
Merusk
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Reply #169 on: March 08, 2012, 06:55:55 pm

I'm legacy level 20 something on my main, but I'd be happy if legacy levels just helped your ALT's to level faster.
Oh gods no. I am constantly overleveling everything. Wish they'd put in xp locks, ffs.

Yes, but you're a weirdo.   I can't even log in for more than 30 min at a time now, Taris the 2nd time through has broken me.  I'm just so damn sick of the planet stories and only want to run the class story quests.

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I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
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Evildrider
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Reply #170 on: March 08, 2012, 06:57:34 pm

I'm legacy level 20 something on my main, but I'd be happy if legacy levels just helped your ALT's to level faster.
Oh gods no. I am constantly overleveling everything. Wish they'd put in xp locks, ffs.

Yes, but you're a weirdo.   I can't even log in for more than 30 min at a time now, Taris the 2nd time through has broken me.  I'm just so damn sick of the planet stories and only want to run the class story quests.

This is perfectly feasible if you are willing to supplement with pvp and/or space missions.  I did nothing but class/planet on my second character.

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Jherad
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Reply #171 on: March 08, 2012, 08:50:59 pm

I dunno, would it really be ruined? Assuming we're talking WoW-style battlegorund twinking here, of course. WoW's twinking revolved around getting all sorts of weird rare gear way before you were really meant to due to oversights when assigning quests minimum levels along with things like enchants meant for people far above your level. I don't really see how much of that would or could apply to TOR, seeing as how everything equipment-wise is pretty strictly level-gated.

The gear difference wouldn't be as sickening as it is in the lvl 50 warzones, but you'd end up with a whole bunch of 49s in the best gear they can get dominating the field nonetheless (the difference between say a 20 and a 49 still being huge, and they'd have full custom gear slotted with purple crafted lvl 49 mods). I have three 50s at the moment, and on each I've felt a twinge of 'ugh, now I start at the bottom again' as I dinged 50 - I'm sure many would just rather not have to. There is usually a good spread of levels in the <50 warzones, and this would change quickly if you could lock XP.

Zetor
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Reply #172 on: March 08, 2012, 11:13:29 pm

They could do the same thing WOW did (have a separate bracket for the xp-off people). I don't really see a downside to that approach.

FieryBalrog
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Reply #173 on: March 09, 2012, 02:20:55 am

A single server XP-off bracket is never going to pop, ever.

WoW's XP-off brackets didn't work even across a battlegroup of a dozen servers. Not until they got rid of battlegroups entirely and had the PvP brackets span every server in the region.
DraconianOne
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Reply #174 on: March 09, 2012, 02:36:13 am

Oh gods no. I am constantly overleveling everything. Wish they'd put in xp locks, ffs.

 I'd love it if my legacy level allowed me to level only through the story quest. 

They quite explicitly said that they recognise this so they're going to be adding specific XP buffs to allow alts to be levelled quicker by doing just the bits you want to do - like pvp or story quests only. Not in 1.2 obv.

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