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Author Topic: SWTOR  (Read 845576 times)
Rasix
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Reply #8645 on: July 29, 2011, 04:10:55 PM

Without its macro system, some builds in Rift would be damn near unplayable due to the plethora of abilities. Even then, with a tank setup you've got more buttons than a TBC era WoW shaman.

Too many abilities is something I can do without.  KOTOR played just fine with few active abilities.

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eldaec
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Reply #8646 on: July 29, 2011, 04:15:17 PM

My EQ2 defiler had over 40 buttons to push. And it was beautiful.

My CoH defenders generally had less than 20, but CoH was much better at making them more situational and making position matter, so that made up for it.

It's not really about how many abilities but how much decision making is going on. EQ2 and CoH managed it in different ways, I'll be happy enough if swtor has some other method, it only has to outdo wow I guess.

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sam, an eggplant
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Reply #8647 on: July 29, 2011, 04:38:42 PM

Without its macro system, some builds in Rift would be damn near unplayable due to the plethora of abilities.
I was just going to mention Rift in the same context. It's an abomination. Every button is a macro that casts between 3 and 12 abilities in strict order of priority. None of those abilities are interesting or spec-defining. Terrible, terrible design.

Rift designers need to get rid of pretty much every ability off the GCD and put their thinking caps on.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 04:40:58 PM by sam, an eggplant »
Evildrider
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Reply #8648 on: July 29, 2011, 04:51:58 PM

I'm pretty sure that during the Q&A's the devs said there are about 30 abilities that you will have at level 50.  Besides people are just going to keep cycling the highest damaging/healing abilities they can.
Furiously
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Reply #8649 on: July 29, 2011, 04:52:11 PM

I play League of Legends and realize how quickly just doing 6-7 buttons right is a lot more interesting for me.

Fabricated
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Reply #8650 on: July 29, 2011, 05:40:13 PM

I mean, I know it's just as dumb in WoW or any other DIKU when enemies just kinda stand there with 300 people hitting them but the end where there's 2 Jedi hacking at a badguy and a smuggler with the gun up his fucking nose...it just looks ridiculous.

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Tannhauser
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Reply #8651 on: July 29, 2011, 05:49:43 PM

LOTRO has that problem where you have 10 skills, all with 20-30 minutes cooldowns.  Highly annoying.  BUT they have slightly improved it.

Nevermore
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Reply #8652 on: July 29, 2011, 05:51:27 PM

One thing that does disappoint me about SWTOR is I'm not seeing much in the way of interesting control or support abilities. It all seems to be direct damage or direct heal - hopefully something more interesting is hidden in the detail.

I hope there's nothing that's even remotely like a 'control' ability in this game, outside of maybe a snare.  Having no controls worked out just fine in GW and that game had hands down the most fun PvP.  It was miles head of the stunned/feared/rooted 80% of the time in WoW.

'Controls' are the worst, least fun aspect of dikus.  Even in PvE.

Over and out.
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #8653 on: July 29, 2011, 06:40:55 PM

One thing that does disappoint me about SWTOR is I'm not seeing much in the way of interesting control or support abilities. It all seems to be direct damage or direct heal - hopefully something more interesting is hidden in the detail.

I hope there's nothing that's even remotely like a 'control' ability in this game, outside of maybe a snare.  Having no controls worked out just fine in GW and that game had hands down the most fun PvP.  It was miles head of the stunned/feared/rooted 80% of the time in WoW.

'Controls' are the worst, least fun aspect of dikus.  Even in PvE.

There did seem to be some stun abilities in that film, such as the one that freezes the boss for a moment.
Merusk
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Reply #8654 on: July 29, 2011, 08:10:08 PM

Also, eat some fresh cake Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

The cake is no more. I knew I should have checked at work.

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sam, an eggplant
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Reply #8655 on: July 29, 2011, 08:15:25 PM

I hope there's nothing that's
Imagine an ability from WoW. It doesn't matter which ability. It's in SWTOR.
Sky
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Reply #8656 on: July 29, 2011, 08:18:50 PM

It's been down since late last night/early this morning. Nothing to see at work :)

About abilities, on the one hand I liked the variety you got in EQ2, also the mechanics of how they worked. On the other hand, Rift has shown me I want a limited, GW2-style ability set, because I don't want to macro and at some point you either do what the hardcore do or you go roll an alt. So far macroing isn't in and I hope to hell it never goes in, it's an awful addition that ultimately hurts the game and splits the player base.

So leave out macros, give a limited amount of varied and useful abilities.

Sjofn
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Reply #8657 on: July 29, 2011, 08:41:53 PM

Eh, macros are fine, the problem is when you have to macro to make your class remotely playable. I can count the number of macros I use(d) in WoW on one hand, and I can only think of two that I needed to use (both were for specific raid thingies where you had to target something NOW NOW OMG NOW). But Rift sounds like it's pretty fuckin' mandatory.

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Reply #8658 on: July 29, 2011, 08:43:53 PM

My EQ2 defiler had over 40 buttons to push. And it was beautiful.

I realize this is entirely a matter of taste, but that sounds awful to me.

Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me.  awesome, for real

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
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sam, an eggplant
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Reply #8659 on: July 29, 2011, 08:49:37 PM

Right, macros aren't the problem. Giving players two dozen abilities off the GCD is the problem.

It's such an obvious design flaw that I'm really surprised it's in Rift. They copied WoW so adroitely elsewhere.
Amaron
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Reply #8660 on: July 29, 2011, 08:50:51 PM

They'll use tricks to keep you getting gear at roughly the same rate I'm betting.   They might not give a bag for every boss for instance.   Probably something like super rare mounts/etc as well.
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Reply #8661 on: July 29, 2011, 09:49:12 PM

Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me.  awesome, for real

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Surlyboi
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Reply #8662 on: July 29, 2011, 11:04:12 PM

Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me.  awesome, for real

Too late. They picked me.  why so serious?

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Koyasha
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Reply #8663 on: July 30, 2011, 12:19:52 AM

'Controls' are the worst, least fun aspect of dikus.  Even in PvE.
While I agree in PvP, I disagree in PvE - EQ's most fun character classes for me were the bard and enchanter, and mezzing was a big part of that, and I rather dislike that pretty much every recent game that I can think of offhand has gone with the 'limited to one mez at a time' that wow introduced.

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eldaec
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Reply #8664 on: July 30, 2011, 12:25:48 AM

Also, not all control is snare, message, stun, root. CoH did a decent job of soft control through knockback and buff/debuff, even DA didn't do badly in that regard.

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Simond
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Reply #8665 on: July 30, 2011, 04:47:15 AM

Loot system is going to lead to rapid burnout and quitting. Let me drop my science on those assembled to explain why.

tl;dr - the strongest behavioural reinforcement (read: most likely to keep people playing) is...

*drumroll*

...random rewards on an unpredictable schedule. Sound vaguely familiar to anyone?

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luckton
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Reply #8666 on: July 30, 2011, 05:40:03 AM

It's random but guaranteed-for-everyone loot on a predictable schedule, assuming one's team can overcome the encounter on a regular basis.  I'll take that over loot councils/DKP or even just need/greed of the random and limited number rewards.  Play me out, Steven Reid!

Quote
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7811164#edit7811164

'Loot containers' (name is still a work in progress!) do indeed exist and are designed to alleviate the frustration some feel around high-level loot drops.

As it's currently implemented, at the end of a key encounter within an Operation, upon looting a high-level opponent, everyone in the Operations group will get an individual container which has a chance to give you a random piece of loot that's specific to your class. It could be part of an armor set, a weapon, and so on. If you don't get loot, you'll get commendations which can be used to purchase gear.

Please note, this feature is currently in Game Testing and may well be modified before launch.

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cironian
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Reply #8667 on: July 30, 2011, 05:49:20 AM

Having at least some guaranteed useful drops every time is also a great psychological aid for people first getting into this kind of thing.

While the classical unpredictable drops certainly keep stuff most addictive to those who already are hardcore raiders, those who first try raiding may stop entirely if they don't get anything worthwhile after their first three times through. After all, reinforcement won't kick in at all until you "won" for the first time, and players are asked for quite a time investment for each try.

So I guess it's another thing where you either make the few hardcore players happy or focus on making stuff more accessible to the broad masses.
eldaec
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Reply #8668 on: July 30, 2011, 05:53:10 AM

Most of time your bag of rewards will presumably contain worthless crap. I doubt this would affect the variability of raid rewards - but hopefully will at least make people feel it is 'fair'.

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Amaron
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Reply #8669 on: July 30, 2011, 05:53:36 AM

Loot system is going to lead to rapid burnout and quitting.

You're reading too much into it.   They didn't say they were going to let you pick your gear at the end or something.   It doesn't even say you will get gear every time.   The tokens could easily be Blizz style Valor badges or whatever you wish to call them.
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Reply #8670 on: July 30, 2011, 07:30:30 AM

It's semi-Diablo loot.  The boss will always drop something.  It may be good or it may be crap, but you're guaranteed to get something.  That's a fine system.  As critical as I've been of SWTOR, this is a Good Thing.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #8671 on: July 30, 2011, 07:37:58 AM

My EQ2 defiler had over 40 buttons to push. And it was beautiful.

I realize this is entirely a matter of taste, but that sounds awful to me.

Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me.  awesome, for real

I really don't see why these games always insist on providing the same degree of involvement and decision making to everyone.

Starcraft is a pretty good example of how class choice can provide macro or micro focussed playstyles.

EQ2 went halfway there, the tanks still have 40 buttons but largely just use 10 of them on rotation, wheras most of the support characters had to assess the situation to a more detailed degree.

Dragon Age does it pretty well - a 2H warrior just sets his stances and goes for a sandwich, but a mage typically has to pick every spell and step manually. No reason designers couldn't make more people happy than just Ingmar.

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Malakili
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Reply #8672 on: July 30, 2011, 08:14:06 AM

I think a lot of games already do this.  Not to the degree to 40 buttons vs. 10 buttons, but playing a warrior tank in wow v. playing a druid tank in WoW fills the same role but is WAY different, just for example.

As for Starcraft (2? I presume?), I don't know if thats the best example.  For a long time people thought zerg was the macro race, but now people are finding out that zerg can be extremely powerful as  "low econ" race too (July style).  The point being that I think what makes Starcraft a great game is that it allows for a variety of viable styles within each race, and then some differences in how those strategies actually work between races (i.e playing macro Protoss and macro Zerg is quite different).  I think MMOs would do well to copy that.  Want to push 40 buttons, make one spec "complex" and one "simple" but the problem is, I'm guessing 99% of your population, probably even higher, will choose the simple one assuming their output is the same, and if the output ISN'T the same then you're going to have the good old fashioned "must be speced X and able to play it well" in order to group for anything not trivially easy.
kildorn
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Reply #8673 on: July 30, 2011, 09:44:47 PM

'Controls' are the worst, least fun aspect of dikus.  Even in PvE.
While I agree in PvP, I disagree in PvE - EQ's most fun character classes for me were the bard and enchanter, and mezzing was a big part of that, and I rather dislike that pretty much every recent game that I can think of offhand has gone with the 'limited to one mez at a time' that wow introduced.

My annoyance with the whole "CC is strong in pve" thing is that when nerfed for pvp (because long controls in pvp are the anti-fun), is that the CC classes tend to, well, suck in pvp then. A class that was properly balanced around being able to lock down a target or two while killing them just dies if they can't lock things down. Easier to just have soft or short controls across the board and make the class viable with those short controls.

Or have completely different rulesets/skill stats in pvp.
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Reply #8674 on: July 30, 2011, 09:47:28 PM

My EQ2 defiler had over 40 buttons to push. And it was beautiful.

I realize this is entirely a matter of taste, but that sounds awful to me.

Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me.  awesome, for real

I really don't see why these games always insist on providing the same degree of involvement and decision making to everyone.

Starcraft is a pretty good example of how class choice can provide macro or micro focussed playstyles.

EQ2 went halfway there, the tanks still have 40 buttons but largely just use 10 of them on rotation, wheras most of the support characters had to assess the situation to a more detailed degree.

Dragon Age does it pretty well - a 2H warrior just sets his stances and goes for a sandwich, but a mage typically has to pick every spell and step manually. No reason designers couldn't make more people happy than just Ingmar.


I agree in theory, but normally the "this class needs a lot of buttons and knowledge to play well" means they have to, if played awesomely, match a simpler class played normally. Because otherwise you get DAOC Sorcs/Minsts, and randomly throughout the game's history Warlocks. Where when played decently, they sucked, but when played well they were unkillable gods among men.

Basically, I don't mind having a skill requirement on a class, but the skill CAP has to stay equal to the easier to play classes. And that tends to piss off the people playing the complicated class.
Malakili
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Reply #8675 on: July 30, 2011, 10:05:59 PM


Basically, I don't mind having a skill requirement on a class, but the skill CAP has to stay equal to the easier to play classes. And that tends to piss off the people playing the complicated class.

Incidentally, this is exactly the problem with TF2 class balance.  The classes are sort of balanced when played decently, but the skill cap on demoman, soldier and scout is so disproportionately high that they are literally the only classes (besides medic) you see in competitive play, and you'll often see a good player with one of those classes utterly dominate a pub server.

Personally, I think a high skill ceiling is the key to longevity in a game.  But I'm fine with it not really mattering either.  If I can work my ass off and learn to play a bit better, it'll keep me more motivated than trying to get those epic pants I need.  But I'm perfectly happy people who are willing to put in less also getting those pants.  Note that of course this only really works in a PvE environment.  In PvE the lower end can dictate the required level of play, but in PvP the top end does.  In something like SWTOR which is really going to be PvE centered, it seems like they could find a best of both worlds solution if they put their mind to it.
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Reply #8676 on: July 30, 2011, 11:10:22 PM

Yea, most people don't do that Malakili, they have no interest in really improving and will readily blame everything else for any shortcomings in their play.


You want mass market, keep the the ceiling low and the floor high with both of them being nice and level.


Fool them into thinking they are awesome  why so serious?



and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #8677 on: July 30, 2011, 11:30:36 PM

It's semi-Diablo loot.  The boss will always drop something.  It may be good or it may be crap, but you're guaranteed to get something.  That's a fine system.  As critical as I've been of SWTOR, this is a Good Thing.

Sounds to me like it is *exactly* the Blizzard (WoW not Diablo) system, but without the psychological downside of someone outrolling you for a given piece of loot.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Ingmar
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Reply #8678 on: July 30, 2011, 11:33:09 PM


Basically, I don't mind having a skill requirement on a class, but the skill CAP has to stay equal to the easier to play classes. And that tends to piss off the people playing the complicated class.

Incidentally, this is exactly the problem with TF2 class balance.  The classes are sort of balanced when played decently, but the skill cap on demoman, soldier and scout is so disproportionately high that they are literally the only classes (besides medic) you see in competitive play, and you'll often see a good player with one of those classes utterly dominate a pub server.

Personally, I think a high skill ceiling is the key to longevity in a game.  But I'm fine with it not really mattering either.  If I can work my ass off and learn to play a bit better, it'll keep me more motivated than trying to get those epic pants I need.  But I'm perfectly happy people who are willing to put in less also getting those pants.  Note that of course this only really works in a PvE environment.  In PvE the lower end can dictate the required level of play, but in PvP the top end does.  In something like SWTOR which is really going to be PvE centered, it seems like they could find a best of both worlds solution if they put their mind to it.

TF2 is also a good example of why the skill cap conversation and the number of buttons conversations are essentially unrelated. Nothing in TF2 has a lot of buttons.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #8679 on: July 31, 2011, 12:48:15 AM

It's semi-Diablo loot.  The boss will always drop something.  It may be good or it may be crap, but you're guaranteed to get something.  That's a fine system.  As critical as I've been of SWTOR, this is a Good Thing.

Sounds to me like it is *exactly* the Blizzard (WoW not Diablo) system, but without the psychological downside of someone outrolling you for a given piece of loot.

Yeah, ragnaros dies you MAY get loot, you may just get a couple badges to buy loot.  The difference of course being that there is no longer a human factor to it, no loot councils, dkp or other player made system.  I'm cautiously optimistic about this system but I worry about going too far from a tried and true model, the more wow turned into a player-lobby game the less sticky is has become and this could be a change in that direction for swtor.

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