SWTOR

[Sheepherder]

Sounds to me like it is *exactly* the Blizzard (WoW not Diablo) system, but without the psychological downside of someone outrolling you for a given piece of loot.

This is not a bad thing.  I think I actually like it.

I also agree with your other post.

[Furiously]

Sounds to me like it is *exactly* the Blizzard (WoW not Diablo) system, but without the psychological downside of someone outrolling you for a given piece of loot.

This is not a bad thing.  I think I actually like it.

I also agree with your other post.

But can they make content quick enough to keep people playing?

[Fordel]

Non-stop, no, probably not.

[eldaec]

Sounds to me like it is *exactly* the Blizzard (WoW not Diablo) system, but without the psychological downside of someone outrolling you for a given piece of loot.

This is not a bad thing.  I think I actually like it.

I also agree with your other post.

But can they make content quick enough to keep people playing?

Originally I thought this was a core requirement of the whole swtor proposition.

However I'm coming to realise that even in a place like f13 people have remarkably low expectation of what their $15 a month should buy them. Maybe for most players it really is ok to be regrinding content and EA don't really have to focus on content outside of expansion packs after all.

[UnSub]

On a cognitive level I appreciate knowing that it takes 25 Sith Lord Hood badges to buy my next Smuggler hat. But it also means that I know I need to run Tatooine 7 times, Hoth 3 times or Corsucant 12 times to reach that goal.

The reward seeking part of me loves that random loot drop.

Not quite sure that it is a good sign that some of these decisions are still being made when SWOR is allegedly launching in 3 to 5 months from now (although I still think 2012 is more likely).

[kildorn]

Sounds to me like it is *exactly* the Blizzard (WoW not Diablo) system, but without the psychological downside of someone outrolling you for a given piece of loot.

This is not a bad thing.  I think I actually like it.

I also agree with your other post.

But can they make content quick enough to keep people playing?

Originally I thought this was a core requirement of the whole swtor proposition.

However I'm coming to realise that even in a place like f13 people have remarkably low expectation of what their $15 a month should buy them. Maybe for most players it really is ok to be regrinding content and EA don't really have to focus on content outside of expansion packs after all.

Comparative to other things I can do with $15 a month? MMOs are actually an amazingly good value proposition for the hours of entertainment provided.

That said, content outside of expansions is somewhat of a requirement to keep people for more than 6 months. Or really cheap and frequent expansions. But nobody is going to churn content fast enough to keep the players occupied unless you set your core player you want to entertain at something like 4 hours a week of playtime.

The hardcore are going to beat your month of written and designed content in under a day. You can't beat that without the kind of cockblocks that will just drive modern players away (you can only do 5 dailies a day to unlock content, you must do 500 of them in order to advance to the next boss! Yeah, fuck that.)

[Sheepherder]

But can they make content quick enough to keep people playing?

It took me the entire length of the TBC expansion in WoW to assemble 4/5 T4 gear on my main just because of luck of the dice and retarded guild politics which completely fucking collapsed the guild in WotLK.  Bioware can't do worse than that.

Then again, when I got my first TBC epic drop off of Aran someone on Ventrilo said "Another soul for Sam's wall," and I'm not entirely certain than they were completely wrong, although Sam (as the raid leader) is assuredly blameless in the matter.

[Azuredream]

I hope they thoroughly eradicate any need for player-run loot systems.

[eldaec]

But can they make content quick enough to keep people playing?

It took me the entire length of the TBC expansion in WoW to assemble 4/5 T4 gear on my main just because of luck of the dice and retarded guild politics which completely fucking collapsed the guild in WotLK.  Bioware can't do worse than that.

Then again, when I got my first TBC epic drop off of Aran someone on Ventrilo said "Another soul for Sam's wall," and I'm not entirely certain than they were completely wrong, although Sam (as the raid leader) is assuredly blameless in the matter.

This is you grinding not 'having suffcient content' (maybe this is your point as well, it can be hard to tell when people seem bizarrely comfortable with grinding in MMOs).

I've said it previously, but it is perfectly possible to generate enough content on $15 a month plus no doubt at least $60 a year of expansions, to keep ahead of me. Probably not possible for people who feel the urge to grind, but they don't need the content anyway.

As someone mentioned above: death to all daily quests. Daily quests are no less ridiculous than spawn point camping.

On a cognitive level I appreciate knowing that it takes 25 Sith Lord Hood badges to buy my next Smuggler hat. But it also means that I know I need to run Tatooine 7 times, Hoth 3 times or Corsucant 12 times to reach that goal.

I too appreciate knowing this, because it means I know that I won't bother and I am immediately able to reconcile myself to a life without that particular smuggler hat.

[Simond]

I've said it previously, but it is perfectly possible to generate enough content on $15 a month plus no doubt at least $60 a year of expansions, to keep ahead of me. Probably not possible for people who feel the urge to grind, but they don't need the content anyway.

Let me guess...anyone who consumes content faster than you personally do is a poopsocker. Right? 

[tmp]

On a cognitive level I appreciate knowing that it takes 25 Sith Lord Hood badges to buy my next Smuggler hat. But it also means that I know I need to run Tatooine 7 times, Hoth 3 times or Corsucant 12 times to reach that goal.

Is that necessarily bad, though? The same applies to knowing the pace of your levelling process but it doesn't make people go "gee, i wish the xp rewards from mobs and quests were random, so i had no idea how long that next level is going to take me". If anything the opposite seems to be the case, with say, WoW addons trying to get the predictions of levelling rate down to Science.

[eldaec]

I've said it previously, but it is perfectly possible to generate enough content on $15 a month plus no doubt at least $60 a year of expansions, to keep ahead of me. Probably not possible for people who feel the urge to grind, but they don't need the content anyway.

Let me guess...anyone who consumes content faster than you personally do is a poopsocker. Right? 

No, I'm saying I doubt most of you run much faster than I do and strongly suspect those who do enjoy raiding the same zone, in which case it doesn't really matter if you run out of content. For the stated approach of SWTOR to be a success, you only need to generate faster than the non-raiders.

[Tannhauser]

I may dip my toe in raiding, but my endgame will be to re-roll.  There will be seven more stories to experience, that should be more than enough for me before I'm sick of the game and move on.  

As far as loot, I like their system but I do hope the drops are useful to your class.  Remove the need for the group to swap out BoE items so folks get something more useful.  

[eldaec]

On a cognitive level I appreciate knowing that it takes 25 Sith Lord Hood badges to buy my next Smuggler hat. But it also means that I know I need to run Tatooine 7 times, Hoth 3 times or Corsucant 12 times to reach that goal.

Is that necessarily bad, though? The same applies to knowing the pace of your levelling process but it doesn't make people go "gee, i wish the xp rewards from mobs and quests were random, so i had no idea how long that next level is going to take me". If anything the opposite seems to be the case, with say, WoW addons trying to get the predictions of levelling rate down to Science.

I think the point he is making is that by making the length of grind visible, fewer people will attempt it. The random drop model means people get suckered into the raid schedule no matter whether they enjoy it or not - because they believe they will enjoy the smuggler hat (in reality they will neither achieve the hat, nor enjoy it if they did).

Being able to avoid bullshit grinds you will never complete is undeniably a good thing for making your life a happy one, but only a good thing for the publishers if, once you establish that this is too much grind for you, they have some other fun and non-repetitive content to direct you into.

[Malakili]

Sounds to me like it is *exactly* the Blizzard (WoW not Diablo) system, but without the psychological downside of someone outrolling you for a given piece of loot.

This is not a bad thing.  I think I actually like it.

I also agree with your other post.

But can they make content quick enough to keep people playing?

Originally I thought this was a core requirement of the whole swtor proposition.

However I'm coming to realise that even in a place like f13 people have remarkably low expectation of what their $15 a month should buy them. Maybe for most players it really is ok to be regrinding content and EA don't really have to focus on content outside of expansion packs after all.

If I go by myself, 15 bucks won't even pay for one movie in a movie theater.  15 bucks won't get you much entertainment almost anywhere.  MMOs are way more cost effective as entertainment than almost anything else I can think of.

[Mosesandstick]

I think the quality of entertainment is also important too, not just how much time you get out of it.

[eldaec]

I don't disagree with any of that, honestly computer games are ridiculously good value in any genre, and I don't always understand why people feel an increase to $20 a month would be unreasonable. I find it difficult to buy more than one round of drinks for $20.

If $20 was the price of continuous content updates I'd be ok with that (you pay more than that once you add expansions anyway)  But personally wouldn't see the attraction of staying subbed for a raid or daily grind no matter what the price.

[Lantyssa]

I can buy a huge bottle of Skyy, some cranberry, and lime for $20.  Bars are for the privilege of having a drunk audience.  You can get a month worth of Netflix for the cost of a movie at the theater.

[Furiously]

I can buy a huge bottle of Skyy, some cranberry, and lime for $20.  Bars are for the privilege of having a drunk audience.  You can get a month worth of Netflix for the cost of a movie at the theater.

I didn't figure you for a sea-breeze drinker... But can you get a huge bottle of Milagro, some agave nectar and some lime juice for $20.

[Sheepherder]

This is you grinding not 'having suffcient content' (maybe this is your point as well, it can be hard to tell when people seem bizarrely comfortable with grinding in MMOs).

You think that taking several years to get a near full set of gear is poopsocking?  Wat?

The point is, the loot system is shitty when people are jockying to get other people excluded from raids because they don't want to compete for the same shit.

[eldaec]

The jockeying will still happen in SWTOR - because the raid size is so inflexible.

[Velorath]

The jockeying will still happen in SWTOR - because the raid size is so inflexible.

But then if you don't get into one raid, it would probably be trivially easy to just form another one since you only need to find 7 other people.

[Evildrider]

I can buy a huge bottle of Skyy, some cranberry, and lime for $20.  Bars are for the privilege of having a drunk audience.  You can get a month worth of Netflix for the cost of a movie at the theater.

I didn't figure you for a sea-breeze drinker... But can you get a huge bottle of Milagro, some agave nectar and some lime juice for $20.

That's a Cape Codder, a seabreeze has grapefruit juice instead of lime. 

Being in the unemployed sector atm, 15 bucks is a big deal for me, and the main reason I stick to MMO's.  I can't afford to pay 60 bucks for stand alone games that maybe have 8 hours of single player play.

[Merusk]

I can buy a huge bottle of Skyy, some cranberry, and lime for $20.  Bars are for the privilege of having a drunk audience.  You can get a month worth of Netflix for the cost of a movie at the theater.

The Alcohol won't last you a month.  The Netflix will, but in both cases you're avoiding people.

[UnSub]

I don't disagree with any of that, honestly computer games are ridiculously good value in any genre, and I don't always understand why people feel an increase to $20 a month would be unreasonable.

Because $15 and under is the price anchor point. It's what I consider acceptable to pay as a monthly fee. You go over that level and what is on offer has to be exceptional.

Value is a funny thing. There are issues with trying to compare the price points of different entertainment experiences - it might be cheaper to pay $15 a month to play SWOR, but my date and I might appreciate it more if I spend $200 on a meal spread over a few hours.

On a $ per minute basis, any entertainment media that has a fixed price and can be played permanently from then on is the 'best' value, but its hard to say that buying 'Catwoman' on DVD for $1 is better long-term value than paying $150 then $20 a month on a SWOR CE.

[Amaron]

The jockeying will still happen in SWTOR - because the raid size is so inflexible.

With 8 man basically being a group I'm curious if we will see some larger guilds that just run 8 mans whenever enough people are on.

[Sheepherder]

The jockeying will still happen in SWTOR - because the raid size is so inflexible.

But it will be over raid size, not raid size and class composition.

[Mrbloodworth]

You guys are really going for that 300 pages A?

[Malakili]

You guys are really going for that 300 pages A?

What with Diablo 3 suddenly alienating people, the TOR thread is our last best hope!

[Threash]

You guys are really going for that 300 pages A?

This will be easily at 500 before the game launches, we are halfway there already and still have a long way to go.

[Rasix]

You guys are really going for that 300 pages A?

Is that a typo at the end or did you seriously just "A" an "eh"?

This thread will probably do 25+ pages the week the NDA drops.

[Draegan]

I say 370 before launch assuming the NDA drops a month prior to release.  I'm putting my money on a November release date.

[Mrbloodworth]

I just "A'ed" and "Eh" yes. But now I know.

[Mosesandstick]

Pretty sure the one-two of the NDA and release date will push this way past 300. Maybe we should aim for 400.

[Sky]

I just "A'ed" and "Eh" yes.