f13.net

You can vote, here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/council/voting/).

I'd appreciate your solidarity in voting for either Bane Glorious or Darius JOHNSON. Bane Glorious's essay on titans was likely a contributing factor of their eventual nerf. Darius is currently goonfleet's CEO.

You could also vote for someone else, I guess. Go ahead, throw your vote away!

CVA's rep is Hardin.  Niall Dologhan.

Edit: Seems like we only get one vote... seems ridiculous considering how many candidates there are.

What, you don't have 5 accounts like the rest of us?

i voted early, and voted often.

I voted for the guy from Axiom.  Was that bad?

You droll troll.

Against all my better judgements & even though shes always primarying myself and flav I'm thinking of voting for Jade Constantine. I enjoyed reading his blog and wants to revamp the bounty hunting system, anyone working towards that is gonna win my vote. Ive read a lot of the other blogs I got bored with most of them and they are all pretty run of the mill by comparison. Apart from being one of the only real RP candidates most of the others strike me as idiots or yeasayers we need some radical opinions in there.

What exactly is this council anyway?

I probably won't even vote, too many canidates to read up on.  They really should of narrowed it down a bunch more.  :ye_gods:

It's shocking that CCP implemented somthing poorly designed and hard to navigate.  Mind boggling, even.

I don't think even the CSM reps know what the CSM is.  Some of them are like "Yeah we don't have to have an opinion, our job is to present YOUR opinions to CCP, vote for us!" and others give you their opinions in posts and you reply and argue with them some to no effect other than publicity for them.  I figured I'd wait out the first one, see what they actually do and what tasks CCP gives them, and vote on the next batch in 6 months.

Besides, I don't think they can accomplish what I want, which would be to get CCP to not only acknowledge the issues the playerbase considers important, but actually commit to fixing them, with due dates and everything (no more "soon").  Not that the playerbase will reach consensus on anything, ever.  I just want to somehow get a "fix the fucking overview bugs" through to them and then see them be forced to fix it, like, next day.

Speaking of which, it's a feature not a bug.  They added code to move all the windows about and make them attach themselves to each other automatically, in order to avoid the map buttons being covered by other windows.  I guess they wanted to "fix" any instance of any button being overlapped by any other window/button, so they fixed it at some core level.  And they're not getting rid of it, despite how annoying it is (to me), because they want that feature in.

Anyway, sorry for the derail.

CCP have themselves admitted that they don't exactly know what the CSM will do - it's a work in progress as far as they are concerned.

I've voted for Jade Constantine...him being my CEO is only part of the reason  :grin:

How come Goonswarm has so many people running?  Have you all agreed on one candidate, or is it every man for himself?

They are blobbing so they can lag out the csm. I think I read somewhere that the 'official' candidates are those Bhodi posted and they have asked their members to spread their votes between the two so they both get in. The others are probably just trying their luck/doing it for the lulz.

One of the candidates is an old LARPing acquaintance of mine. How odd...

I don't know how GoonSwarm got so many candidates, whether it was because of their alliance size or the regions they hold. We had an internal vote to pick the top two candidates, with the hope if we spread our votes between them, both have a good shot at getting in.

I don't see myself ever giving an ounce of support to a group who's leader feels that "the ability to inflict huge amount of actual, real-life damage on someone is amazingly satisfying" (Wired Magazine Feb, 2008 "Griefer Madness") Certainly I know not everyone is part of GoonFleet for that reason and other benefits apply, but because of the ambiguity of the internet I'm left with an objective view based on simple principles of fun in multiplayer gaming and support for my fellow players, or as it's more widely known, carebearism.

I'm aware how impotent the CSM idea is at the moment, yet I like it for simply being a unique thing even if it's worth nothing more than a publicity stunt yet. It's still a good chance to let people with an initiative (greater than that which belongs to the obstinate morons collectively coughing up forum furballs made out of whine and inane bickering) direct their concerns to CCP. The current lead game designer for EVE, Noah Ward, started out as a volunteer bughunter. I'm sure something similar might happen to one of the candidates.

Personally I'd like to see simple yet large aspects of the game fixed. Mainly the newbie experience, which is dreadful. Throwing more info and tutorial windows at the player isn't making the game easier and certainly not much fun. I felt that telling people to read more theory about the game turned me into the guy sucking fun out of the game.  When I pictured myself as if I was playing the game for the first time, I was surprised how I didn't feel any of the old cockstabs disappear. I tried to get many friends and guildmates to join our group, but it mostly failed as the game was such a turn off to many of the guys I have played other games with in the past. I spent several days letting newbies private message with their problems and the same questions kept popping up over and over again. CCP doesn't seem to have a working Q&A department, or everything test-related happends on the test server where nothing resembles the issue I'm derailing this thread with.

So if the Council of Stellar Management manages to convince CCP how unattractive the game is to the consumer not because it's "really niché (of a niché of a niché - Schild)"  but because it deliberately fails to satisfy some level of standard consumer gratifications. How many new players get to experience the fun of liberating someone's cargo instead of waiting for their manufacturing mission to finish? Or maybe they don't really want more people playing their game.

Yeah voting for a goon would be fucking dumb, because well, goons are dumb and at their core are prone to doing things that are bad for everybody because it is funny and doesn't matter because this is internet spaceships.  Fine by me but putting them in charge of speaking for the game community at large?  FFS.

I voted for Jade because as Amarr said, Jade has always put waaaay too much work into the game, respects RP and the game lore, respects the game itself and will undoubtedly be more worried about helping out smaller gang combat then the large alliance versions of pewpew.

It was either Jade or the CVA guy but I've been reading Jade's posts since 2003 so it wasn't that hard for me.

Ah, but is the newbie experience dreadful in and of itself, or is it dreadful because the parts of the game that need explaining (to newbies) are so damn counterintuitive and poorly designed?

The questions I see asked the most aren't about what goals to pick in the game, or about what the end-game content is, or anything like that, they're about the UI.  People just don't understand it.  Or they're about ships and fittings, or the aggro/flag mechanics, which I again attribute to the UI being crap.  This is the only game I've seen where the UI flashes the button to open a container (a silo) at 3000 m, then pops out an error message saying you have to be within 1500 m to open said container (and other similar examples).

Polish matters, and I wish we could demonstrate to CCP just how much (by getting them to fix the damn bugs and UI, and then letting them see just how many MORE players they get).

But I don't think that the CSM can do that.  I got the impression from the various blogs and news items that CCP isn't willing to give the CSM or the playerbase much decision-making power.  Or any kind of power, really.

It's alot more than UI, it's useless bullshit that serves no purpose except to cockstab newbies.  Like learning skills,  early level missions that need heavy polishing, etc, etc.

CCP needs someone to tell them that only crazy people will play for hours and hours and hours trying to "find the fun" in an otherwise unfun game.  Hear that CCP? FUN IT UP!

CCP notices your attempts and draws the "It's a sandbox" card.

I love the fact that it's more of a simulation or "true virtual world" or how you want to call it. It allows us, the experienced players, to find or create our own fun, but this aspect isn't being grasped, instead, as Nerf suggested, blurred out with serious gaps in gameplay, or lack thereof actually. To EVE players it should be obvious, to really old EVE players it's less of that (and guess which part of the community makes the most noise). I know subscription numbers are slowly but steadily rising, but I feel it's because EVE has improved only a tiny amount in regard to attractiveness and mostly it's because of the MMO market boom. It does well at holding onto old players, but the bait'n'hook department is undermanaged.

Counterpoint: You could replace 'goon' with 'CCP' in that sentence and it'd still hold true.

I think at this point, Eve has tamed the goons.  They may still have their unique "Fuck all of you" flavor, but the infestation that was determined to destroy the game has pretty much burned themselves out.  If you think of them as just another set of roleplayers, everything fits right into place.

--Dave

ice burn

Sorry, couldn't resist. Actual content to follow shortly.

GF has definitely changed several times.  It reflects the character of the leaders, which in turn reflects the membership.  So we had a fat lulz griefer (Remedial), a fuck-CCP emo spymaster (Mittens) during whose reign we became pretty rabidly anti-CCP on the grounds of their cheating and game-imbalances, a general (Sesfan) during whose leadership we became focussed on war and took massive tracts of space, and now Darius, who has started by lending his official imprimatur to scamming and griefing, with (apparently) a series of wars against long-deserving targets developing.

And as I blogged about, I think that the CSM has to focus on getting CCP to release more, low-quality 0.0 space, difficult to get to from existing space, into which younger characters and alliances can move without the problem of being tiny fish in a shark-pond.

I was lucky enough to get snapped up in a corp soon after I started the game, and got involved in the (very old and experienced) role-playing community of EVE. Without the guidance and experience provided by my corpmates I don't know if I'd still be playing the game.

Then again, solo-eve is fucking boring.

Or do...something with low sec.

New blog about what the CSM is all about. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=555)

You know, I've been thinking about the CSM, and CCP seems to be hoping that these volunteers and the process itself will block the noise and just get the gems (good ideas) out to them, but I'm waiting for the next occurrence of the following:

Bungled patch -> record number of "issues" gaining 10,000 votes the very same day -> CCP being forced, per their own rules, to "document" and "address" everything they did wrong (that's what "issues" are, right?  stuff that's wrong) -> beating on the dead horse with these issues up to and through the next live meeting (possibly, for months).

Repeat a few times, and all you have as a result of the CSM process is a string of published and very very documented instances of "oops we did that wrong", "oops, our fault", "oops, we did it again", and "oops, but here's what we're doing about it".  Then "oops, that didn't work".

Of course, the language will actually be "The Game is in this state/condition, and that's not good, so we'll improve it this way," which sounds much better.

Jade Constantine takes three long ass posts before he even gets to the "what I believe" stuff.  Thanks for the 3000 words telling me it's Eve Online we're discussing Jade, just in case my taskbar was fucked up and I'd forgotten.  Though if tons of words no-one will read passes for intelligent then Jade is your man.  However worst of all he thinks titan proliferation is just dandy and titans are somehow "anti-blob".  Anyway who's actually tried to take down one of the fuckers would laugh at that notion.

He's right about cyno jammers + titans being extra retarded but it's just too much triangulation when he's praising the dumb ships and looking forward to everyone DDing the shit out of each other in following paragraphs.  Forget Capitals Online it'll be Supercaps Online if they keep getting produced at this rate and barely dying.  He's the Hillary Clinton of this election.

Bane Glorious on the other hand wrote that monster Titan Manifesto which I believe was instremental in if not actually getting the things nerfed then at least reducing the outcry from the older playerbase with it's methodical detail of everything wrong with them.

Bane '08!

I haven't been following this CSM stuff at all other than just reading about it on the login screen. But from what I've read here it seems every candidate has some titan agenda. I wonder what percentage of the player base actually gives a flying fuck about titans. I've never even seen a supercapital during the six months+ I've spend playing the game. What was it, 75% of the players stay in empire? Are there any candidates that would appeal to the majority (i.e. people not in 0.0)?

Best point so far Nurtsi.

Good job of elucidating why I can't seem to work up a flying fuck about this election.

Unfortunately, that majority in Empire is also interested more in PVE than in PVP, and CCP's not into PVE much.

From what I've seen, a lot of candidates (not all of them) have agendas that promote radical changes to the game / to game mechanics, and I think CCP's gonna cut that short very fast.

The only things I want are UI improvements, and not just better / faster bugfixing, but for CCP to improve their QA to the point where it shows they care.  The question of whether any candidate has this on the agenda has been asked, with only a couple resposes, so I guess we'll just have to ram it through via 10,000 votes.  Maybe next patch day.

If you aren't in 0.0 than you are a second class citizen. Didn't you get the memo?

I'm only in Empire because the slave trash decided to declare war on us.  Does that count?

Surely you are in Empire to fight the slave trash, and not to escape from them :)

Well, the clearly goes without saying, doesn't it?  I hear they're missing a few battleships now.

Don't think it's particularly remarkable that ship(the closest analogue to "class") balance gets people excited in a pvp mmo like no other issue.  What do the empire players in particular want that you could base an interesting manifesto on?  More missions and so forth?  I saw a bunch of candidates talking about no insurance for suicide ganks - which won't solve the "issue" but that's besides the point.

I'm under no illusions the CSM will actually accomplish anything though - but it'd be nice to see the Anti-Capitals Online candidates win if only for symbolic purposes.

Well, the anti-capitals (even basic dreads & carriers) might ring some bell for the new people. Being part of a small casual alliance in low sec one of our annoyances is that we can't setup a POS anywhere. Whenever we put one up a 15+ cap fleet will arrive in few days at most and blow it up. We just don't have the numbers to defend stuff against that. Even if we did on one timezone, the buggers can just do it while we all sleep. POS in hi sec is a pain to setup because of the corp standings. Joining a bigger alliance is not really a solution because "I want to play with my friends". It's kinda hard to get into carebear action like manufacturing when you can't research your BPOs. Maybe a hi sec POS will become more viable with the faction warfare *shrug*

As for missions, maybe not more of them but make them more interesting. Add more levels, they're too easy. Add fleet missions and gang missions (it's always more fun to fly together). Make missions for covops ships where you need to fly some course and avoid detection. Add nano ship NPCs and other tech 2 opponents to missions, stealth bombers, and spider tank NPCs. Add 'healer missions' (eww) where you need to rep a gang in combat etc. You could make missions more like actual PVP so it would be like practice for the 'real thing' and you'd need to think a bit how to engage and take stuff down.

I could see myself capable of voting for someone who would have a manifesto based entirely on mission running. As for mining, I couldn't care less but a lot of other people probably would. Then again, maybe the hardcore PVPers are once again the vocal minority that by being active on the forums gets to dictate how the rest should play the game. Or maybe they're not a minority in EVE, dunno.

WoW. Even in Eve if that number is true, the devs are taking a big risk bringing the war to Empire with the next expansion. I guess CCP is used to surviving on minimal subscription numbers though.

I saw at least one(can't remember the name now) putting forth the proposition that mission payouts should be lowered. His premise was that there was too much money in the game now, ruining the economy. Someone should tell him about game card sales I think. I'd bet that's bringing way more money into most people's hands than mission payouts. He had some other flaky claims about the economy that were shot full of holes by a real economist too. :)

Minimal sub numbers? These guys been holding strong/gaining for a long time now. As much or more than any non-WoW MMO. The reason for that? They keep their game gritty.

This doesn't bring any extra money into the game, it only transfers money from one player to another. Now, if the game itself let you sell it a GTC for money, then yah.

I do agree that industrial characters may need more money sinks, as only pvp'ers really spend a lot of cash (on replacing ships).

There are only two ways to get money from the game itself: Missions, and NPC Rats. (Plus some NPC commodity trading I suppose - did I miss any others?).

However, there are a lot of ways to "pay" the game: War fees, skill books, etc.

Anything outside of those don't increase or decrease the overall money in player wallets. (Of curiosity, as more players join the game I wonder if the average wallet size gets smaller or bigger).

While EvE may offer "grit",  it's undeniable the bulk of the players aren't taking advantage of it.  And if they try to strong arm people into pvp, they'll lose subs.

 

Of course, if it wasn't for us "gritty" EVE players, all those carebears might as well be playing Freelancer.

Even if they don't participate directly, they are involved indirectly and that's part of the appeal.

All the factional warfare stuff is optional right - you actually have to choose to participate in the missions or go to the warfare areas?  A little direction and lower entry barriers for PVP can only be a good thing.  As it stands way too many leave after their free trial muttering "mining simulator".

Results are in (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=562).

The Roleplayer wins and two Goons are up there too. This should prove... interesting.

Yuck....

I guess thats all I have to say.  :nda:

Wewt, Jade won!

The Goon vote-splitting strategy worked well - shame about Goumingdong not making it though  :awesome_for_real:

Edit: Three role-players (i.e. in specific RP corps/alliances - perhaps Darius RP's the roof off in GS alliance channels, but I have no way of knowing) on the council, Jade, Hardin and Inanna. The GS dudes are the only candidates from a big alliance on the council (not sure though if there were candidates from other big'uns in the running).

Ha, they should make them come to Iceland in February.

Yay, my rp guy got in.

What's going to be hilarious is the first time Jade posts a thesis on "Why 0.0 space should work the way I demand it to" and CCP turning around and saying "nop, sry".  :awesome_for_real:

I used to LARP with Andy Cruse....

Isn't Serenity Steele someone?  I swear that name sounds familiar.

Grats to Jade, I figure if nothing else he'll try hard and take it seriously, probably too seriously.

It'll be interesting, one way or the other.  CCP says they want them to be legit but than makes them sound like secretaries.

Serenity Steele ran the ISS, the Outpost alert (http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/) and made the map book (http://www.eve-online.com/eon/strategicmaps.asp).

Its not in Empire it's in low sec so there's more PvP for those who dare and the carebears can still hang out in Empire.

Non-sequitur much?

I was too lazy to quote, here this statement.



Its not in Empire it's in low sec so there's more PvP for those who dare and the carebears can still hang out in Empire.  :-P

The CSM is off to a dramalicious start; Goons demanding a no confidence vote and bitching about a supposed promise to step down from the chair - Jade threatening to disenfranchise a goon council member and flat out stating he'll ignore goon viewpoints - tons of bickering.  It's more fun than the primaries thread!

Thread is in the CSM forums, and it's been moderated quite a bit, apparently.

By the way:

Jade Constantine:
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3144/andybz8.jpg)

Fuck the Goons tbh.  Taking anything anyone who flies Goonswarm seriously when it comes to something like GSM is so assbackwards retarded that it hurts to think about it.  It was hilarious reading a thread in MD started by some Goon who wanted to run an IPO.  Everyone basically told him to piss off or make an alt for his scam.

You can't have your alliance mission statement be "to ruin the game" then expect anyone to care that now that your a superpower you want to fix some of the problems with supercaps.   Give me a fucking break.

Mostly page 11 on in Jade's campaigning thread: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=759968&page=11
But the sniping is all over.

They have added two forums to the CSM section of the EVE-O forums, one where we can discuss issues and vote to support (you do that by posting and checking a box before submitting your comments) and one that looks reserved for the CSM reps to post their reports.

?

What's the point of posting the picture? Is it simply "omg jade is a dewd!!!" or what?

Hence comes the term "To do a jade."

My personal judgement is that this is going to be a clusterfuck of monumental proportions.  My professional judgement is that it's going to be a fascinating experiment in the dynamics of player governance.  The difference between the two is that as a professional, someone else's monumental clusterfuck is my learning opportunity.

The fact that Jade Constantine has been elected Chairman on a platform of essentially taking over the game design from CCP is not that surprising.  The fact that he's a gender-bending roleplayer and the Goons are in the mix as well....  It should be interesting.

--Dave

If we're going to be honest here - and I suspect you know the answer yourself -  I think the picture was posted because he looks funny, Hakel.  If a guy gets elected, goes back on his first campaign "promise" within minutes then within only a few hours starts on a crusade fuelled by personal dislike of a sector of the electorate then he has to expect that his reception is going to be mixed at best.  He is busily provoking confrontation and happily sowing the wind.

I'm genuinely disappointed in him.  I think I am on record on these forums in the last couple of weeks saying that i thought he'd be a pretty thoughtful rep, and I was impressed by the stated willingness to stand down and put his putative chairmanship to the vote.  At the moment, it looks like Mahrin has it spot on, and the whole process is going to be made into a colossal, pitiful disaster, and the astonishing thing is that it won't be the goons that do it.  I'm having trouble believing what I'm seeing.

He's a changeling!
(http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08214/odo7638.jpg) (http://xs.to)

?

I was going to post a bunch of text about Goonswarm but honestly, who fucking cares.   :popcorn:  I hope Jade gets they kicked off the CSM.

Hoax, do you know anything about Something Awful gaming groups other than running into them in EVE?

I ask because while goons are always "fuck pubbies" in every game they play, and love to goof off and grief/scam, they always know their shit and help eachother out. I guarantee that there's a large number of goons that know far more about the game than anyone ever should and care about its health more than they'll let on.

If the goons hadn't tried to "ruin" the game, I never would have tried EvE.  I wish them the best of luck.

EDIT: And I not even the griefer type, just think they add coloor to an otherwise drab universe.

It's far more likely that Jade quits, IMO. Bane, Darius and the CVA bloke understand 0.0 warfare and want to fix the various issues with it, the various carebears want to improve Empire, but Jade wants to smash EVE into little pieces so that everybody plays the 'correct' way (read: How Jade wants to play)...and I suspect CCP will ignore pretty much everything he personally proposes for that reason.

Goons haven't had the "ruin eve" thing going on (other than for trolling purposes) since the Mittani went postal. Sesfan was pretty clear then that CCP had admitted their fuckups, and other than the cyno-jammer HP thing, most patches have been pretty beneficial to us, on the whole.

Actually fuck it.

I don't really know who started it and who's keeping it going, but the fighting between CSM reps is comedy gold and IMO SO representative of the type of community EVE has.  I expect the whole thing to fail for two reasons: 

1.  11% voters proved that not many care, and that's gotta be disappointing to CCP, who I imagine are looking to make big publicity out of this thing.

2.  The CSM reps flaming each other ... in a way, that's typical of a politics forum (we have one here, discussions there are much more heated and ... hostile), but CCP has to moderate theirs because it's *trumpets* THE CSM */end trumpets* and eventually it will require too much moderation effort to keep it clean and be able to get any sort of PR out of it.  Or a good signal/noise ratio, which was the original purpose.

One way they could save it - make it seem more useful and stop the fighting - would be for CCP to reassess their stance on how many votes a topic needs to get to be pushed through regardless of what the CSM Reps want.  Cause, right now, the only issues that will be on the agenda will be each rep's pet issues; there's no way any topic will gather 11,000 support votes if only 26,000 players voted in the elections.  I'm looking at the threads out there, and they have, what, 20-40 support votes, each?  Heh.

They need to let us put issues on the agenda much more easily, so that regardless of what Jade, the Goons, or anyone else wants, the agenda gets filled with a zillion issues, thereby drowning out Jade's, the Goons', and every other rep's.

Woah, let's get this back on track: Continuing to make fun of Jade.

This is what he does when he's not fencing (http://www.mordante.demon.co.uk/Maison.htm).

Um, I think I speak on behalf of a great many people on these boards when I say that making fun of people who play PnP RPGs is not a route we want to go down  :oh_i_see:

By all that is holy, though, who writes an adventure in that much detail?!?  It's like a Berlin Wall of words :jade:  If we can deal with it on its own merits, it is an awful, awful adventure: massively linear, constrained and scripted, and absolutely doomed either to leave the DM railroading the players until they start sabotaging stuff on purpose or forcing him to throw away the adventure and wing it.  Someone is (as if we didn't know this) a bad writer disguising it as a module.

Edit: spellink

BTW, I want photomugs of two goon CSM members.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen pictures of Darius already, and that he's depressingly normal, but we can see what we can dig up.  On a law of goon averages, therefore, Bane will be nearly as fat as Lady Scarlet.

Edit:What a happy chap he is.

(http://www.dariusjohnson.net/posters/poster2.jpg)

Aha!  He had changed the link by then.

This is what even Jade was ashamed of... (http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm)


More like "are you a geek who wants to cyber, one-handed, with other geeks in the absence of genuine females in your life?"

My character is an Intaki... this bears investigating.   :nda:

I've read about cybersex in EVE (http://kotaku.com/gaming/sex/selling-sex-in-eve-online-155871.php) in exchange for ISK a long while back on Kotaku. The assumption that they were likely men was less surprising than the fact that there was such a service available. Wonder how the Amarr roleplay code stands on this both IC and OOC. I bet "kill it with lasers" for both occasions  :awesome_for_real:

I prefer listening to podcasts while I'm warping from place to place, but whatever rocks your spaceboat. Now, 100mil ISK for the one who finds out which of the candidates rubs against small boys on the bus.

The voting turnout was disappointingly low, but what can you do. At least it says something. When the elections were announced it was assumed that the 80% Empire pubbie population would determine the real outcome of the voting. I'm guessing the actual fact is when you never set foot outside Empire you don't really have a reason to care and be interested. Then again I assume everyone who got elected are all in some degree EVE fanatics and not just people who really wanted to go to Iceland but didn't have the money. Which of the candidates will get their opinions replied with the international middle-finger from CCP will determine the worth of this council. They won't have the power to audit anyway, I'm sure, since they are customers representing customers. I'm not that big of a political analyst to assume where things will go from here, but Mature Men Online Roleplaying Girls included it's still an interesting thing to observe.

This is as good a thread as any. I'm reposting this little bit of awesomeness both because of the entertaining burn and because it gives you an idea of what goons really think about the CAOD olympics and, by the transitive property, the council itself.

WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT

Edit On third thoughts, never mind.

Jade you roleplay a space whore - in space.

Everybody play nice now....

Jade, you want to talk about the dynamics and philosophy of player government, you could find much worse places to do it.  You want to continue the Council CAOD-style wrangling in these forums, I'm going to have to hurt you.

--Dave

It's an ill-conceived idea anyway.  People lose enough of their stuff being on the wrong end of a failure cascade.  If you have "Lose a city in Shadowbane" type penalty then I could see large numbers quitting outright and even more swearing off the idea of even venturing out of empire.

Your posts are long because you do not pay attention to your audience.  In this case, you are on a sub-forum dedicated to the game, with stickies at the top explaining all the acronyms.  So you could have cut out the three opening paragraphs, and compressed a few sentences here and there in the rest of your post, too, because we know much about EVE and what Outposts are.

In any case, what you are proposing will result even more in "the strong stay strong".  Your "horribly expensive wars" are only so for the losing side.  Where is the expense for the winners?  Come in with overwhelming force, raze everything to the ground, and the victim can never recover.  You are proposing the equivalent of an increase in the death penalty, and are arguing that this will make fighting more fun, and that more people will fight.

Right.

EDIT:  Besides, it's between you and CCP now.  I am waiting to see what they do when:

1.  None of the issues that the boards have been screaming about for the last 6 months get brought up, because the biggest thread only has 150 support votes and isn't likely to get much more.

2.  The various CSM reps bring up their own pet issues, and you bring up yours, and CCP realizes that most of you are proposing to change the balance of some part of the game drastically.

I think the word people are groping for in response to War And Peace up there is "Shadowbane".

Also, welcome. Perhaps you'd like to browse a bit before assuming overmuch about the audience here. :-)

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Hey, hey, hey, guys. Guys. Seriously, guys. Can we, can we like, get like, an official rank in BAT, which is like "Psychosexual Battlefield Therapist".






srsly

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Sorry but I just get a bunch of gibberish from that link; looks like an executable viewed in wordpad.  Must be temporarily broken.

You don't seem to appreciate player outposts are already a risk.  You risk being locked out of your assets, risk a load of POSes and most importantly risk your alliance going to pieces when they get kicked out.  There's certainly risk even if some people might think it's not risky enough.  However if you forever blow up all of AverageGrunt#231344's stuff with no hope of recovery then it's more than likely he'll simply say "fuck it" and quit the game.  This has been amply demonstrated in previous failed PVP games.

I want people to PVP and experience everything 0.0 has to offer.  Your idea is just too harsh and will chase people out of the game or make them way too risk averse to even try.

If you think sov warefare is too cheap then how about increasing the cost of POSes again or something else that won't wipe out your average alliance grunt if they lose bad?

edit: nevermind that link just hates Opera.  Loads up fine in IE

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In that case if players could get their assets out without too much difficulty and there was a good deal more NPC 0.0 for baby alliances to grow up in (I think they should add that in any case but that's another discussion) then I could see your idea working.  I'll have to think on the implications some more though.

I agree with the destructible outpost they need to be defendable and in ways that exciting and not more blob fleet lag. Also a way for pilots to clear their stuff out is imperative. Players on board during destruction also dying would also be interesting especially if "ambulation" would allow you to look out into space from a watchtower or something to that effect. Outposts should also be given pretty good defenses I would like to hear what CCP think of this idea (any links).

Also Jita Park top threads are
Jade Constantine : Your views on ownership of PvP loot and salvage? and some other one about salvage ownership,  is CCP only allowing you to discuss menial subjects not that I'm expecting monumental changes but why aren't what's discussed here top discussions in Jita Park?

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I could tell that this transvestite was a CAOD faggot by the sudden emergence of walls of text, before even looking at the username. And I didn't even play or browse the damn forums for over a year.

Two things to bear in mind when skim-reading Jade's tediously lengthy posts:

1 - During a period when massive amounts of 0.0 space have changed hands (almost everywhere except Stain, Delve and RA's home system), Jade's attempts ("hay guyz let's get scores of stealth bombers and blow up a dread!") have, for years, failed.  Thus, his interest in making 0.0 alliances somehow more vulnerable are not born of benign disinterest.

He's right about the problem: smaller, younger alliances are locked out of heaven.  I prefer the idea of making more conquerable space.  But then I don't nurse a grudge against CVA a mile wide.

2 - He and his friends metagame like the Mittani only dreams of, so all the holier-than-thou stuff about goons is a touch rich (goons help out CVA a lot, though, so they are bad metagamers, not good roleplayers).  Coincidentally, one of their usual targets is Aegis Militia.  His presence here is therefore probably not coincidental, as Hakel will doubtless have filled him in on this as well as unleashing him on us (thanks a fucking bunch).  Last time it was the theft of a bunch of POSes, bpos, cash etc by a person - one of Jade's underlings - who spent the better part of a year befriending some of the AM guys, gaining their trust etc.  I, of course, am in a weak position to judge anyone on this, but it's worth bearing in mind (as in lock up your BPOs, don't grant tower rights to anyone but established posters etc).


Jade was banned for a lot of that time anyway.

Firstly yes makes some sense to allow self destruction but it should have timer (24 hour or whatever length of time it takes to regain sov) to allow the defenders time to recoup their loss if they are capable and average pilots time to collect their goods. Goods not collected can be salvaged from wreckage perhaps. That is if this ever gets implemented so no point in getting deep into it unless CCP show any signs of vetoing such an idea.

Yes I gathered that you were ambivalent to the subject of Empire loot, I was just curious why these were top discussions (as opposed to things I deem more important :P ) are CCP asking you to push certain things or are these things you feel should be dealt with first? I believe first thing that should be looked at is the bounty system Im sure a majority would be interested in this.

Note: I don't think previous altercations should stop Jade being allowed a soapbox here but also people should also be aware of her associations.

Once nice idea I've heard for moving away from POS warfare would be awarding sov to whichever alliance actually uses the space most.  You'd get a rolling total of points for NPCing, mining, exploration, production and so forth but mostly weighted to PVP and after a certain threshold + whatever the other guy had "Grats it's yours".  This would give defenders the advantage as they'd have points built up from using the space but because of the PVP weighting it'd be far from insurmountable.  Of course you'd be able to transfer your points to any alliance to allow for tendency arrangements.

It's probably unworkable and full of exploits but, hell, anything to get away from fucking POS warfare.

That hardcore Eve players continue to call wow players catasses who are way too into their game still amuses and horrifies me.

Good god, go get laid. Or drunk.   You're investing way too much time in a video game.

Says the guy with 5000 posts!

/em runs from the thread in a flood of tears

You've never been in an alliance where an outpost has been lost.  You don't get lots of your stuff out, since the system is hostile by then, so you end up with masive firesales.  It doesn't matter about blowing up: just the siezure of an outpost is sufficient to see massive riches locked up inside.  When GF took one of the Querious stations a single Bob hangar had 30 bill of fuel and T2 production materials in it.  Almost everyone in the south has stuff locked up in enemy outposts.  Outposts already have risk, your enemy just needs to have the allies, the strategy and the will to take it from you.

Damn, Sparky beat me to it.

Anyway, hardcore Eve players are what hardcore "Metaverse" Second Life players aspire to be (without the furries in the mix).  They play at creating a government and society and tell themselves that they're creating the 3D web and will replace every inferior form.  Eve players just create an actual functioning system of governance without worrying about trying to replace anything.  Second Life is full of LARP'ers, Eve is just gamers trying to win in a PvP game where social structure is as important as every other means of putting guns on the target.

The "CSM" thing I'm not so sold on.  At a minimum, it could be a democratic replacement for the Team Lead program I started at Mythic (which got copied, with varying degrees of success, all over the place).  It might even be able to grow into a working democratic system for prioritizing future development.

As for taking it too seriously: What the hell, it beats television.  Clay Shirky is currently pushing a meme about "cognitive surplus", just as BOINC or SETI@Home can make use of CPU cycles that otherwise would do nothing, social networks and Wikipedia and online games make use of human brainpower that would otherwise be wasted staring at re-runs.  Who knows what wonders that much distilled concentration could produce, even by accident.  Of course, the chances that Eve is going to produce the sociological equivalent of the cure for cancer is about as remote as it coming from my personal Rosetta@Home installation.  But what the hell, everybody needs a hobby.  In the meantime, it's producing more *new* information about how to design online games than all the boiler-plate-fantasy games put together.

--Dave

EDIT: Endie's right.  I've still got about 3B worth of stuff stuck in Z-UZZN, not to mention that I owned about 4B worth of that station.

Yeh I know hehe. I think the idea of something being indestrucitble is a bit odd to me & Endie just cause you have invested more time and energy in a game and have more invested in the world of outposts doesn't invalidate my opinion. But as I said I don't see CCP vetoing this idea never really did so I take it with a pinch of salt. Lets talk about bounties or something less hypothetical that CSM could work towards.

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I think I've read about 80% of what's been posted since Jade showed up.  Here's my thought:

Ask Ushra'Khan how reclaiming their outposts is going.

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DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!  If you let in-game politics take control of the CSM agenda, the whole thing will go down in a huge stinking fireball.  If people feel that a particular faction of in-game power has taken control of the development agenda, the shit will hit the fan, bigtime.  Just having personal connections between BoB and CCP that was perceived, rightly or wrongly, as letting BoB inject politcally/strategically motivated changes into patches was a major catalyzation point in the anti-BoB coalition's formation and a huge PR nightmare for CCP, if people perceive that the CSM is recommanding changes because they are to the advantage of the factions represented in the CSM, it will be 10 times worse.  Because this isn't through the back door social networking corruption, this would have the official CCP imprimatur of legitimacy.

The CSM is an asset to the game and to CCP only to the extent that it is seen as an impartial feedback mechanism dedicated to the improvement of the game for all players.

--Dave

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My point was that you should keep in-game politics *far* away from your justifications for a change.  Everything you advocate is going to be viewed through that filter by the uncharitable, yes.  But if the ordinary Eve player decides that the CSM is in the pocket of a particular faction, it will lose legitimacy.

If you find yourself in a consistant pattern of 5-4 votes, with the same 5 and 4, you're on your way to destruction no matter how pure your motives.

--Dave

Knowing what we know about Eve, and hearing what we've already heard, I find it hard to believe there ISN'T a bias.  You guys are going to have to work hard to prove that there isn't one, especially to those of us with some knowledge of Eve behind-the-scenes.  I've only been playing a few months, but I've invested a lot of time into the game and as much as I'd like to trust the CSMs, I'm not there yet.  Politics in space is still politics, until it's proven otherwise.

Image banner sigs? Really?

Seriously, I don't usually get all TL:DR on this forum but Jesus that was some long and tedious reading before I gave up after the second paragraph in his first post.

5k posts over 4 years.  Yeah, I'm really hitting the board hard.  Those 4 posts a day take HOURS.  This one alone took me about 6.  :oh_i_see:


Beat you to what?  Saying, ha ha you're posting on a board? Pft.  It's not the 'taking it too seriously' that I'm amused with.  Yes, it's better than TV.  If it weren't I wouldn't be here or playing games, I'd be watching TV like normal folks.  I wouldn't have played the MMOs I have over the years and would instead, perhaps, understand the fascination with American Idol or Desperate Housewives.  At least I'd be able to have a conversation with my coworkers about it instead of saying, "why would anyone watch that shit?"

No, it's none of that.  It's the superior attitude.   It amuses and befuddles me at the same time.  Even more than the Second Life crazy who was posting over on Lum's blog for a bit.   See, THEY are making money - real money - for their time spent.  Those are the SL obsessive you chose to ignore up above. They aren't deluding themselves into thinking they're anything more than a collection of geeks playing with computer spaceships.  I can understand a SL catass's obsessive behavior so much more than I ever could an EVE or WoW catasses'.   One of the latter is not better than the other.. they're both frittering large chunks of their lives and their time to combat boredom.  Yet somehow it becomes a huge integrated part of one's life. 

Really, I want to see what happens to folks THIS into a game when it finally shuts down.  It won't happen for a long time, but I hope some Phd candidates in psychology are following it when it does.

Who is next?  Sirmolle or DB Preacher?
-dbp

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It's just that it's often hard to distinguish "good for the game" and "good for me/my corp/my alliance."  But I like the open chat log idea.  Where can I sign the petition?

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Why do people play at any amateur sport?  All over the country, amateur softball, darts, and bowling leagues continue to operate, not too long ago they were thriving.  It's all just games, right?  Except "the guys are counting on me."  So you set the alarm clock, load up on the Mountain Dew, and log in at 5am to run your internet spaceship to save your internet space station so you don't let your internet buddies down.  Because in the end, it's the buddies that count.

As for SL catasses making money: Maybe a couple of dozen people are making more money than they could by knitting sweaters and selling them on eBay.  A few dozen more are making money by selling professional services building islands to real life companies that buy into Linden Labs "We're going to replace the Internet" pitch.  Compare to the hundreds, maybe thousands, of gold farmers making their living in WoW.

--Dave

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No.

Not really.

The corp thief is still part of Stimulus.  Stimulus is still part of Star Fraction.  There is a way in which you can construct Jade's post so that it is true, but it's tortuous to do so.  People should draw their own conclusions about the veracity of the rest of his conclusions from that.  Like I said, I'm in no position to judge and it's not like I was impacted by the situation, which was just something I saw happen (in detail).  Like Jade says, he is about the only person here who doesn't know who my characters are, and therefore has made the serious mistake of saying "hohoho stupid little Endie" when my knowledge of what happened came from watching it from two extremely well-informed (and mutually antagonistic) viewpoints.  Everyone here (except Jade) knows what at least one of those was.

As regards Jade's "I have no interest in holding 0.0 territory" this is, yet again, an example of his CAOD posting style.  It's literally true, but ignores the fact that he does want to be able to take (even if only to dispose of) 0.0 space.  So he doesn't mention that what i referred to was that half of Eve was chuckling at his attempts in -7- space in Providence, in KBP7-G, to take a system, while CVA was distracted by a Tri invasion.  The conventional approach didn't work so well (we joined in for a bit and I got 17 kills, one a carrier, from his non-existent, not-wanting that 0.0 space anyway campaign) so he tried stealth bombers.  At least some goons thought that was funny enough to be a good laugh.

And Jade, don't be such a condescending, fatuous fool.  This is not CAOD: despite your protestations, you've clearly not read around to discover what the point and nature of F13 actually is.  There is a massive amount of experience in 0.0 politics here, and if I go saying something that's bollocks then LC, JoeTF or others will very quickly jump on it and correct me, just as people are mocking the bits you're used to getting away with saying on Eve-O.

Why not stop insulting long-term board members here like TripleDES (if you think people will side with you because of what he wrote you're misreading the culture here again) and do your job: consult with (not lecture) the eve community and pass their concerns on to CCP like a good representative?

I wouldn't hold your breath Endie. The smart money is on him having ran for CSM more for the larger soapbox to push his views and the illusion of power than to actually be a good representative.

"Freed from the shackles of territorial ownership, our PvP roaming gangs shall now hurf de blurf durf!"
You do realise that every single 0.0 alliance that is either not good enough to hold space in the first place or lost their space says pretty much the same thing, right?

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 :popcorn:

This has probably come up somewhere before but wouldn't destructible outposts mean it would be a lot harder for small alliances to get established in 0.0?
The powerhouses would be freed from large scale pos operations to deny station access, they could just hop around the galaxy and capblob the stations of any alliance that isn't part of one of the large naps.

You will be the very best representative you can be for those who agree with you? Tell me more oh benevolent one.

Here is where Jade's CAOD habits come in again.

As i said, through one tortuous construction you can make his argument true.  However, Stimulus left SF, fought some empire wars, and rejoined.  Probably repeatedly, though I have no great interest in their comings and goings.

The fact is that the latest SF/Stim infiltration of Aegis Militia happened last year, and Stimulus was last in The Star Fraction as recently as ten weeks ago.

As to the rest of your bullshit, well done on the straw man.  I explicitly  say that you didn't want to hold KBP (because you knew you couldn't).  You accuse me of mischeviousness for saying that you did want to hold it.  perhaps you should rebut my accusations that you are behind an international online transvestite conspiracy to sieze control of the banking sector?  Or offer strong evidence that I am wrong to suggest that you sacrifice Christian babies to run your car?

But you tried and failed at POS warfare, more often than once.  For those who think that Jade is being truthful and open, and is aloof from POS warfare and wouldn't deign to attempt it, his most hilarious moment recently - the stealth Bombers vs Dreads - (and I mean hilarious in a good way, since I thought it was audacious and funny) was resorted to after realising that they couldn't defend the POSes they had erected to try and take sov from -7-.

Anyway, as many have pointed out, Jade is entertaining enough at a distance (he looks like Odo, loves to cyber with other guys and is, exhibit A being here, laughably easy to sidetrack with trolls due to his rampant narcissism), but we're talking Woodcock's argumentative tendencies crossed with Telemediocrity's charm and GeldonYetich's insight into design, here, and I imagine that the result will be much the same..


There we have it.  300,000 players in the game and Jade intends to be the best representative possible for the 2,500 who agree with him.

edit:  Dammit Calantus you may have won that battle but I have the new page!  Nobody will ever see your witty rejoinder!

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Voters only matter more than non-voters if your main purpose is (re-)election.

Did we already say that your plan only hurts the losing side? I thought we did. Did you address it? I must confess I didn't read a dozen or so of your posts so I might have missed it.

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If the invading alliance is conquering space with the intent to keep it, you are right, but that's not my point. I'm talking about 'quick' strikes where the invading alliance pops up somewhere on the map and does whatever is necessary to destroy the station without intent to ever occupy that space later. If they only need system sov to initiate the self-destruct it would make an excellent way to gank a station belonging to a smaller alliance and gtfo.

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Didn't I say Jade would Woodcock?  As foretold in prophecy.

To wearily repeat: saying you split with Stimulus last year because you thought they were nasty meta-gamers is rather weakened when they have, since then, been welcomed back into your arms.  I always said your stance could, just, be construed as true to the letter.  But it is deliberately misleading.

Accusing somebody of "frothing" when they say things you disagree with is a very poor troll.  I think you'll find that calling a spade a spade, a kneading-trough a kneading-trough and bullshit bullshit here is not going to have people tutting.

I have no spots - time on the mountains yields dangerous amounts of UV so spots ain't the problem - but neither am I an oil-painting.  Considering that a picture of me was my avatar here for most of last year, however, accusing me of not putting myself up for ridicule is a shot that misses its mark.

And It's just not true that voting in the council elections makes ones account subscription worth more, and therefore one's opinion.  Fortunately, CCP rely on the full playerbase for their subs, and will ignore partial and selfish advice, whether from you, Hardin, the goons or anyone else.

Anyway, you really need to stop with the narcissism and try doing your job, which is listening to the opinions of the playerbase.  Let's try.

You are absolutely right about the difficulty for new corps and alliances to become engaged in 0.0 without joining or submitting to the large alliances.  I also agree that that is one of the biggest problems, maybe even the biggest problem facing eve right now.  I blogged about that recently, myself, and our corp here has faced something of the same problems.  But making it easier to destroy player investments in the form of outposts is, far from being a solution to that, actually a recipe for greater imbalance.  Bob, the Goons, MM, Rzr and more than a few others can easily despatch several mid-sized fleets (assuming that anti-blobbing mechanics are in place) of the sort that Joe Newbie and his hundred alliance-mates

If you're saying that you also want substantially more low-quality 0.0 space, hard to reach with caps from existing space, made available, and that the costs of outposts must be divided by twenty or so given that they'll be like big, stationary, vulnerable supercaps at best, then fine: I disagree with the destructibility but it is a rational position.  But NewbAllianz aren't going to spend 18 months mining and ratting themselves into oblivion to blow 30 billion on something that will be gone the first time one of them talks rude to Molle.

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Ah, my attempts at serious discussion are ignored.  Serves me right for not voting for him, I suppose  :oh_i_see:

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Would it help if I pretended to be a space hooker?

Another small difference to current mechanics is that they, obviously, will never be able to reconquer their station, an option I would prefer to a docking window in which you try to get all your stuff out while being station camped. Tastes differ, I suppose.
I'm sure a change like this would make alliances that live in NPC stations happy in their pants, I guess you try to cater to your audience.

An adult discussion about pretend spaceships?

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Like I foretold in the thread in the private forum, he will do this until eeettteeerrrnnniiitttttyyyyyyy.  You cannot disagree with him.  It will be "lies" or "superior-than-thou [sic]" or some other dismissal.  Just join him like I have in the joy of the ad hominem.  It'll end there anyway.

Oooooooh, that's it. I'm officially addressing you as a our Battlefield Psychosexual Therapist from now on.

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Jade, this isn't debate.  You can't "debate" by breezing in and alienating all and sundry because they won't bow down and worship your ego.

And you're missing my point in the last post.  I said i had joined you in the joy of the ad hominem.  You have converted me.  I stand by your side, ready to tell everyone how stupid they are to disagree with us or, when they are patently correct, to attack their motivation.  I have rolled up an alt, "Sister Sultry" and am already touting myself out in Jita for ISK in return for "delicious enticements and spine-shivering wickedness in my space-brothel".

Edit: correcting conjugation of the verb "to attack"

Did you two used to be pretend RP-style space-married?  :grin:

I think this is still the courting phase. Those space-french RP courtship rituals are damn complicated.

There I am, warming up to the idea as I become better informed and then you have to go and throw a forum tantrum, tsk, tsk.

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This is not a debate.  Jade, you're just re-stating your agenda (in too many damn words - we've seen it already on the EVE-O forums) and we're not buying it.  And, in lieu of either side budging even an inch, both are exchanging smack-talk and going off on tangents.  That's what "CAOD-style" is.

You didn't come here to debate, you came here to give more exposure to your views, and because you like flames and smacktalk.  May I suggest the Something Awful forums too, they will offer more of the same:  more publicity, more flames, more chances for you to valiantly defend your beliefs.

Too bad CSM's can't hold more than two terms.  This forum-warrior meta-game that CCP has introduced seems to be fun for you; Jade Constantine has been completely absent from the  EVE-O forums / game for the past year, but as soon as they announced the CSM thing, boom, there you were, suddenly running as an expert in the game, for the good of everyone, and with a huge agenda.  I remember thinking "WTF did you come from?" but, good for you.  Have a fun two years (one year running, one year basking in the glow of having been a CSM leader).

I'm gonna go play the game.

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That was a disappointingly tedious restatement of previous insults.  I think he's getting distracted by my sultry space charms.

And Jade, I begin to suspect that Hakel (or skim-reading) has failed to fill you in on the part of my eve career that isn't filled with goonie goon goonery.  It's probably not an exaggeration to say that as many as half the eve-playing registered people reading this first pvped in my gangs, first came to 0.0 space in a deal I set up, first tried out empire warfare, even in many cases first tried eve after my recruitment post, first wondered what the fuck the Scot with the awful mic was calling as primary, and much more.

Simply pointing at me and saying "lol endie is a dick", whatever the unarguable accuracy of the statement may be, is not going to swing the argument relentlessly in your favour when they probably know that I have spent most of my day off today* moving stuff in haulers and sitting in a lowsec station waiting for a 500mill skill to finish training so I can jump shit to and from their POSes.

*lol internet space nerd

Jade,



first of all, learn how to be succinct. The vast majority of people on f13 have played MUDS at some point. We've moved beyond walls of text.

Second, no-one is going to bother having a serious debate with you, because you've as yet to say anything of worth.

Third, stop calling it a serious debate. It is a telltale sign of a buffoon with an overinflated sense of worth, a person who calls these conversations "debates". Let alone serious ones.

Forth, an ad-hominem is a fallicy by default and as such can never be valid (by virtue of being a fallicy).

Fifth, respect is earned and not given. No-one here is going to have a respectful discussion with you, because no-one here respects you. You have not earned anyone's respect.

Sixth, stop being such a dud kid.



loev,
f13

So I disagree with the destructible outpost idea.  Where you really lost me, though, was the part where you said voters mattered more, and most of what's happened since then has been bickering.  If you really do want to debate, and I'm admittedly curious, what else has come up for discussion among CSM?

And you and yours are still worse at holding 0.0 space than a bunch of ADHD 'sperger nerds playing internet spaceships with newbie characters. Yeah, right, you don't want to hold space - that's very convenient bearing in ind that every time your lot tried to pick a fight with anyone not utterly useless you lost.
How much must you suck? No, that's neither a request for an invite to your mangina cyberchat website, nor an excuse to post chat logs.

Explain to me, in 200 words or less, how starbase destruction is a positive change from the current mechanic?

Since it's already been noted that there are no small corps holding stations, only larger alliances (who can destroy other, smaller alliance stations) and those who own no stations (who live in lowsec/empire) would benefit from this change. Since it would only take a few hundred people to destroy something that thousands have worked for and relied on in both these cases, the 'fun' balance is simply not there.

A lot of the 'fun' in eve comes from revenge, and in one of these cases, the ones who lose a station have no opportunity for recourse. EvE devs saw this and the whole sovereignty mechanic was put in place to prevent such an imbalance. 0.0 empires are built on stability, and this change would completely reverse the current paradigm.

We would have a situation where larger kids can run in and kick over your space sandcastle, or where small kids can run in and kick over your space sandcastle in the night and then go running to the skirts of mommy empire, impervious to counter assault.

Well I personally am ambivalent to the idea though it does seem strange that something is indestructable. I think one of Jade's points that was made in his blog is what happens in a couple of years when 0.0 is littered with outposts. I'm pretty sure people didn't vote for Jade because of his ideas on Outposts alone and I don't see it being vetoed just cause the Head of CSM says so, he still needs to get the backing of the players and other CSM members. The majority of people probably don't really want it so all we are doing is a fuellling a discussion that's fit for the blackhole that is Eve-o's Features and Ideas thread. In other words lets move on here.

 So why not make a vote of game issues that people feel need most attention and whichever tops it we can discuss here in detail and try and remove ourselves from this ad-hominem (of which I admit I took a small part in) it's not really progressive at all.

Features and ideas has this thread which will give you an idea of the most requested features players want though it is an old thread would be nice to update something like this.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=475749

I informed Jade of the fact that his picture had been posted on this forum (AM or BAT were not mentioned). I had only ever seen the picture in question on our internal forums and thought it possible that the origin of the picture lay there. I don't think I have to defend telling my CEO of a possible security breach, however unlikely.

If this makes me look like a huge spy, so be it. Your conversations with Jade are between you and him though.

Because a picture probably posted by the person in the picture somewhere else is a security breach when it hits our forums. :oh_i_see:

If there's a security breach for you guys, it was probably through the Goons, and irrelevant to this board.  There's a private board where BAT discusses internals, this is a public board for everyone at f13 who is interested in Eve (not all are members of BAT, we have some goons, a couple of BoB, and others not affiliated with any faction).  IOW, your internal security issues are none of our affair.  And please don't try to fight the council battles here, we're more interested in the overall gameplay/game design implications than the moral arguments.

--Dave

Indeed, that picture was all over gf.com days ago.  Given Jade's outspoken attitude towards the goons and close links to Bob members I don't imagine anyone can be terribly surprised when they take the time to infiltrate SF pretty thoroughly.

Thoughts:

1)  Jade your going to have to do better. 

2)  Endie, stop, stick with destructable outposts or some other policy issue.


Destructable Outposts --

Advantages:  More lost by winners and losers = more money sink = less supercap funds
Disadvantages:  Anything that increases risk will reduce conflict.  Reducing conflict means more fucking NAPtrains which means even less independence in 0.0.  It will make people much more cautious about (re)building an Outpost in the first place.

So while it will put more sinks into the top of the food chain alliance's wallet, it also will seemingly increase the gap between the Outpost holding alliances and those who can not secure one.  Which side of the scale is better for the game?  No fucking clue personally.

Thats really all there is right?  I'm 50/50 on it, because I'm not in a 0.0 Outpost/Supercap building alliance and that shit happens far beyond my 200mil or less in the wallet character's playstyle.  I have no issue with it being discussed though and nobody has really presented anything that makes me say, nope thats so stupid its not even worth talking about.

Of course that could be because this thread was littered with so much eve-o style bullshit and space politics that I couldn't stand reading most of it.  Cut that shit out, this is still f13 so act like it or fuck off.  I dont know dick about the subject so I'd be happy to read an informed discussion if it can at least maintain the level of single:noise ratio that we have in the War thread most pages.  Right now this thread is a big failure.

Did I miss anything?

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This is the big thing about making wr more costly. If fighting hurts you do everything in your power to make sure you don't have to fight. More than just more NAP trains it also means that the new alliance setting up shop next to you is more important to stamp out than before. Now if they manage to take a system it's no huge deal, you can finish what you're doing and come back if need be. If they could destroy your stations... yeah you're not going to leave them around long.

If you want more dynamic borders, less NAPs, and a place for new alliances you need to increase conflict. The more fighting there is the more windows of opportunity to set up while the established alliances are too busy to go wipe you off the map, and when they do turn on you it's not going to hurt too badly so long as you can hold out. Sov 4 is the right direction they need to take. Ideally each alliance could have one stronghold system that is highly profitable, very secure, and easy to stage out of. Then give reduced security and profit to the constellation, then after that any new space has a lot less security, less profitability, and it's harder to move around in (no stations outside of home constellations perhaps, no jump bridges, etc). Make that extra space worth fighting over with the incentive of fighting being a fun thing, but not important enough to be too concerned over. The problem is the ability to hold vast amounts of space for no reason. BoB had no reason to hold all that space they had, which is why they had pets. The 3 main alliances in RSF have no reason to hold the space they have now. If tomorrow half of RSF space got taken back I'm sure none of them would even notice the lack of it. They hold it because they can. They can defend all of it because it's no trouble to go from one end to the other and anybody trying to set up down there has no more defencive bonuses than the RSF system next to them.

Make it cheap, easy, and profitable to set up a new alliance's stronghold and make it easy to fight fringe territory wars. Just make it harder to take, profit off, and defend vast amounts of space. Make it harder to completely wipe an alliance off the map so people can get established, they can fight for bigger territory with the big boys later on, but they need a secure foothold first. Making it uniformly hard is just cutting out the startups, not encouraging them.

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Yeah so you have 3 out of 4 posts so far here on page 6, and 10 of 35 on the last page.

You need to simmer down. Just a little.


What I don't understand is that you don't even live in 0.0 -- how are you competent to suggest changes to things like 0.0 or titans when you've probably never even seen one much less been on the giving and/or receiving end of a doomsday or participated in a large scale space holding 0.0 alliance?

This goes for the girl who's been in an NPC corp for life as well, I'm not just picking on you.

My opinion here isn't a game theory premise with no backing, it was proven in Shadowbane where servers became giant NAP-fests because most alliances were too afraid to lose real wars because the cost was devastating. This in addition to the alliances who quit the game when they lost so heavily resulted in a very stagnant PVP game for a number of servers. Make wars cost too much and people stop having them. I don't care how hardcore some players are, the majority of players, even 0.0 players are not. The hardcore will be left to play with themselves in the vast open space that nobody else is willing to pay the price for (or massive NAPs negate the issue entirely).

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I'm sorry if I don't have your entire corp history in memory, but this wasn't an answer. You currently live in empire, yes? You've been there for a while? Since before trinity?

If you want to ignore the question, just ignore the question, one sentence flippant replies don't really help your case.

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Yeah, see, this is why no one likes you.

Edit: I'll be clearer. Generally, part of an explanation on why someone is wrong includes educating or explaining, instead of just declaring by fiat. You're now talking about the question I asked and trying to sidetrack into a semantics argument instead of just answering my concerns.

Edit2: Now you're trolling. This isn't CAOD, so stop it.

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And here we are 7 posts later and you still haven't assuaged my concerns by EXPLAINING instead of ALLUDING to your 0.0 and alliance experience. How much clearer can I possibly be?

Edit: you know what? Nevermind. I'm just shitting up this thread. I'm stopping. Before I do, however, I will say RE: My goony nature, "Poor assumptions on you behalf really, lets leave it at that."

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How about just banning this idiot?  He's way worse than even Bruce.

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I am Jonny Damordred, CEO of Stimulus.  Just to set the record straight, we helped SF in the tourney and thats it, period.

We have our own forums: http://www.westimulateyou.com/ (http://www.westimulateyou.com/) and we have our own killboard: http://stim.griefwatch.net/ (http://stim.griefwatch.net/).

Oh and as a response to this:


Since you actually batted an eye at a corp-theft: let me be the first to welcome you to EvE Online, I see you are new here.  Mind you ass and wear your cup, we aren't very friendly.

Cheers,
Jonny D.

This isn't a virtual court of law, it's a discussion. In trials you're guilty until proven innocent and so attacking the allegation makes sense, in a discussion you're supposed to actually discuss the issue instead.

COAD is full of morons easily distracted by semantic arguments and walls of text, but nobody here is going to just fall over and give in because you avoid the issue at hand. You can pull us into a semantics argument easily enough, but it wont change anything.



And yes, I got a Bruce feeling about this guy pretty quickly. From the walls of text saying nothing, arguing semantics and attacking the allegation over discussion, making the topic all about himself, and the Sir Brucing itself. If his picture wasn't posted I would have suspected it was Bruce for sure.

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Okay, now you're starting to annoy me.  Let me explain something about where you are at the moment.  This is f13.net, heir to the Lum The Mad diaspora (the artist formerly known as Lum is still around here somewhere).  The guys with red names actually work in the MMO industry, most of them as designers (not that we get any special respect, it's more like a target than a badge, but we know what we're talking about).  There are people here who have been participating in discussions and post-mortems of MMO's since the days of M59 and UO (more than 10 years now), which is part of why there are so many "red names", a lot of them are LtM alumni who worked their way into the industry (that would include me).

These people, by and large, know their stuff.  You can't wave that away with some rhetoric about "pseudo-intellectual game theory".  We've been there, done that, seen how this shit works in practice.  Increase the costs of participating in PvP, and you reduce the number of people who will participate and the risks they will take.  Period, full-stop, end of line.  And if you keep acting like this, *I'm* going to be asking the admins to boot you, and I'm no goon (there are only 3 or 4 of them here, and we like to think of them more as mascots than as an infestation).  These people are being comparatively polite to you because I asked them to be, behave yourself or things are going to get ugly.  Keep calling in reinforcements to try and protect your "street cred" and I'm going to go into full on flame mode myself.

--Dave

I made a contribution to the discussion. You countered by saying that it was pseudo-intellectual game-theory. I countered saying it was based from observation of the exact same phenomenon in actual scenarios (I can add more examples too if Shadowbane doesn't work for you). You countered with in my day..., stated that alliance wealth and security were the changes that caused today's problems, and then proceeded to ignore your own point to push your solution of making the fighting hurt while masturbating to the idea of alliances being destroyed and sent back to empire to rebuild wealth before shoving their dick into the vice again. The reality, which becomes perfectly clear when I make myself actually read what you write, is that you don't care about new alliances making a go of it. You care about destroying what real 0.0 alliances hold before running back to empire.

I stopped discussing the issue with you because you're being insincere about your motives. It's useless for me to point out why your idea doesn't help new alliances starting up in 0.0 when you don't care about that beyond it being a hook you used to reel in the suckers that voted for you. So I went back to attacking you and your arguments because it amuses me.

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And to be clear, I love a good discussion of game mechanics - almost any game that I'm familiar with.  But I'm not seeing it in this thread. Here's a hint:  the mark of a good writer is someone who can bring his point across in FEWER words, not more.

Also, nearly every post seems to include some sort of disparagement about people I've known for years, whose ideas are generally well-considered and whose character is solid.  That disparagement makes me prone to dismissing your opinions before I even read them.  Incidentally, I didn't read them.  I tried, but I recognize forum warfare when I read it, and I can't be arsed anymore with that sort of juvenile bullshit.

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Well, first off, I am not a reenforcement.  Yes, Jade mentioned to me that my Corporation's name was being drug through the mud here, but I made the decision to post.

With that being said, let me touch on two points:

Firstly, I don't doubt you when you say that there are people with vast experience in the MMO world.  I would point out however, that not all MMO's are created equal.  Using knowledge from one MMO (WOW for instance) and putting it against another (EvE) would lead you to a highly dubious prediction.  I would also point out that someone with a general knowledge of the landscape would never outdo someone with specific knowledge of the domain in question.

Secondly, Jade is right, 0.0 as a whole is stagnate.  There may be some ripples at the edges, but behind those edges are regions full of nothing, no people and no resource harvesting.  Now I've seen mention that EvE as a playerbase needs more systems to expand, but I know, from looking at the environment of the game, that there is a huge underutilization of the space the playerbase has.  Why?

The reason why the underutilization of 0.0 is simple:  The balance of difficulty between attacker and defender is too skewed in the defenders favor.  All it takes is two mods on a pos and it goes from "hard" to "meh, I'd rather do something else".  Two mods, costing a total of less than 100m isk (a pittance) together are the reason for the stagnation.

Cheers,
Jonny D.

You and that CEO are both missing Endie's point. The fact that they rejoined just to help with the tournament is inconsequential to the point that you obviously did not have that big of a problem with them if they were allowed to rejoin for any reason. I honestly don't even know why it is an issue because I skipped the posts wherein I assume it was explained yet still I know why your arguments are pointless semantics. Either you know this as well and are just talking sideways because you can't concede any point ever, or you missed the point because you're an idiot.


There are like 4 goons here, and since goons are basically everywhere on the internet, having a handful of goons is meaningless. We also have many roleplayers and LARPers here and they don't get laughed at for doing it. It's true we don't like people like you, but the "people like you" in this instance is not "roleplayers". You roleplay a politically charged female prostitute in space, you can't expect people not to laugh at you. But in the end we will just laugh and move on because after the initial hilarity it's not important. Hell, the guy we're comparing you to confessed to having sex with a dog yet he was around for years until his annoying posting style pissed off too many people.


Also Jonny, you're describing a problem we all know and agree with. It's the solution we're disagreeing on. If sprawl is because defences are too strong you break the defences, raise offencive power, or disincentivise sprawling empires. You don't simply add the ability to make it hurt if the too-strong defence is overcome.

1. What exactly ARE Jade Constantine's credentials in regards to 0.0 spaceholding alliances?  I'm being serious.

2. What you're proposing is to take people who have invested YEARS building up their space (Providence, for example) and making it easier for them to lose that investment.  That WOULD drive many to quit the game.

3. There are already plenty of penalties for losing your space.  I made the case of Ushra'Khan earlier.  It's been over a year and they have yet to reclaim any slice of 0.0 and are pretty much stranded in empire for the time being.

4. I don't even think there are four Goons here.  Most of us are in Bat Country which has the Goons set to red.

5. What Mahrin said.

Edit for 6: How can you say not enough has changed hands?  The largest space-holding alliance was reduced to 1 region in the last year, and has since taken back several of its old holdings.  Three major space-holding alliances have folded in the last month.  Goonswarm lost a Titan.  There's PLENTY of flux in 0.0, thanks.

Try reading more than one thread, or more than one forum here.  Anyway, there's a fair chance that somewhere out there, somebody is taking a dump on my reputation, and how I haven't done anything worth talking about in the last few years.  I could follow the lead of He Who Must Not Be Named (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/02/14/gametap-severs-ties-with-derek-smarts-galactic-command/), track them down, and defend myself.  Or I could just not even let it occur to me that it would be worth my time.
It's been static before, but I really have a hard time believing that the problem is that not enough is on the line.  In a major battle, hundreds of billions of ISK can go up in smoke, adding to the stakes is not going to help things.  The roots of the stasis lie elsewhere, in those POS warfare mechanics, and the fact that the stakes may already be too high and that is part of the problem.  The "buy-in" isn't going down, instead we've gone from a major battle being 12 capitals to 120, which has increased the lag and unpredictability (and therefore the uncontrollable risk of loss), but the investment as a proportion of total wealth has, if anything, gone *up*.
 
From their POV, you stepped into a spectator's discussion of the CSM and took a giant dump in their forum.  And you really need to learn to write more succinctly, I can brain-dump a wall of text with the best of them, but I don't on forums.  You think you've got it bad, should see some of the stuff they've dumped on me over the years.  You've got to learn to take a punch without taking it personally, or you're going to go insane.

Anyway, the parallels are being drawn to Shadowbane because that's the closest one to draw, the only other game that involved substantial player investment in destructible infrastructure.  I could give you some examples from DAoC, which wasn't as hard-core as SB but had some of the same dynamics playing out.  There's also UO, Lineage, a few other games with PvP capital losses, none are nearly as "on point" as Shadowbane, but they are all consistant with the pattern.

--Dave

The point is: Corp theft is an everyday occurance in EvE.  Part of the landscape, up there with Suicide ganking and scamming.  All, by the way, condoned and (albet half-privately) cheered by CCP.  Hell, when the first major Corp theft happened, CCP used it to recruit more players.  Using the fact that we (Stimulus) did it against a third-party (Jade) is hilarious in the extreme.


I'd suggest you do a bit of research, Jade doesn't roleplay a prostitute.


Part of three steps:
1.) Nerf Cynojammers to hell by making them only carry fuel for a short amount of time (in the works already).
2.) Disassociate Sovereignty from POSes, hopefully with something more dynamic.
3.) Make outposts distructable, forcing people to actually defend what they have.

These three things alone would:
A.) Ballance out the attacker / defender scales.
B.) Collapse the size of 0.0 entities, since they'd actually have to defend.

Cheers,
Jonny D.

All I can do is respond with a quote from CCP themselves:

CCP Wrangler: "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for."

And a piece of old EvE-Online wisdom:

"If you can't defend it, you don't deserve it"

Cheers,
Jonny D.

As I see it, you make 0.0 easier to attack and add a huge penalty to the defenders.  The point of defending is that's SUPPOSED to be easier than attacking.  See: Thermopoly/300.

No, a promethium moon will make you on the order of a billion isk a week, and trust me, all but the smallest alliances control several.  Add in random officer spawns  from ratting, complexes and just plain old mining, and the cash flows like water.  Hell, any alliance worth the name is so freaking liquid in isk it isn't funny.

The fact of the matter is, 0.0 is so easy to defend that groups starting today can't ever get into the fight.

If you want proof, go look at the south-west, there is an assload of empty space, with it's occupants now fighting in the drone regions.  Ask yourself how and why they get away with that... it's a better question. 

Cheers,
Jonny D.

Um, fair enough.   It should be "easier" to defend, not "keep the cyno and jumpbridge pos fueled, then pick your nose" easy. 

Cheers,
Jonny D.

I've read this whole thread.

I don't know what the fuck is going on. But if any of you spent this much time on a real job, you'd be fucking loaded.

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There was battle between the Goons and Smash&friends a week ago that resulted in many, many dead capitals.  For reference.

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Replies #196 & #202 are the only things worth reading in the last 3 pages.

-Is the problem with 0.0 that space holding makes too much isk with not enough risk of isk loss?  If so what are solutions?

I can tell you right now, making Outposts destructable hardly seems like the big deal everyone is making it out to be.  Not from where I'm sitting at least.  But I've never built an outpost and unlike some people in this thread I'm willing to believe I have no idea as a result.

Here are the good things about the Outpost idea:
1)  Its unrealistic and stupid in eve to have them be invulnerable, nothing else is.
2)  It is a sink on both the attackers and defenders.

Now I need someone to articulate better, to me, not to fucking jade ffs why making Outposts destructable would inflict so much hurt on non-superpower alliances?  I can see what might be some reasons but someone who is so drastically opposed to this idea even being considered please illuminate me.

P.S.  Jade, please stop making this about you, because this is making me think your going to fail hard at being CSM.  A crucial aspect of the position will be to present the issue and step the fuck back.  So far (and not that I'm too surprised having read your posts over the years) you are doing a shittastic job of making this into something more important then Jade versus People who just dont know as much as Jade.  Thats a shitty way to frame something.  Makes you look like a real asshole.

P.P.S.  Stop posting so much, this is a discussion forum, I dont want to read 15 of your posts every page before I get to reply.  Neither does anyone else.

Hoax, it's the Vanguard argument: "make death more meaningful!"  The trouble is that the two proposals here encourage blobbing and napfests: making outposts destructable and making taking space easier.

It is true that there is hyper-inflation in supercaps, outposts and more.  The rixh are getting vastly and inexorably richer.  The poor (us) stay poor.  The ideas suggested here are attempted demand-side solutions, intended to work by increasing demand for replacement goods, while at the same time making those goods less desirable due to increased frangibility.  Of course, that will lead to risk-management by the vulnerable parties, reduced demand for the good in question, and more risk-averse behaviour. 

Money will continue to accrue to the super-rich and only they will be able easily to replace lost goods.  Thus Goons, Bob, RA and a couple of others can keep churning out outposts and supercaps, while the vast majority of Eve will recoil from investing their time into things that will be easily destroyed.  Massive, old alliances will have outposts which are hard to destroy and easy to replace.  Young alliances will have outposts which can be gone in days if they so much as sneeze on Darius or Molle.  The divide will be reinforced.

A supply side solution makes more sense if you want to even the playing field and give young alliances made up of new players a chance to compete.  Alter T2 production and moon mining to reduce its profitability greatly at the upper end.  Finally remove T2 BPOs as has been long discussed.  Reduce the difference in money-making ability between a member of an old, established alliance and a new, young one to a matter of purely how much they want the item they desire: make ratting, mining or mission-running the primary means of accruing wealth.  The massive empires will shrink, the ability to throw nano-ed vagabonds at every problem will disappear, and the days of fielding numerous supercapitals will be in the past.

Edit: grammar

I'm not drastically opposed to the idea but I do have some concerns.

First making everything that is player build in 0.0 destructible is a sound concept. Leaving destroyed outposts as derelict stations in space with hangars accessible for retrieval only and a lower-cost rebuild option looks particularly interesting although they seem to be a bit mutual exclusive. If a conquering entity rebuilds the station the window for retrieval will close so there would have to be a sufficiently large timeframe for it to occur.

It would however lead to less outposts which might lead to a lesser populated 0.0. I like outposts, I like a densely populated 0.0 and I welcome all initiative to further develop 0.0 space because I think if there is more infrastructure in place more people will hang out there.

It would also give an unfair advantage to those alliances who currently have npc stations in their space.

As I pointed out earlier, I believe it should be balanced so that major powers can't just show up on your doorstep, camp your system for a couple of days, blow up your outpost and move on. Having it tied in with losing constellation sovereignty before a station can be destroyed might make it less of a casual gank thing to do.

Having high cost destructible assets in space would also lead to a more defensive attitude in alliances, which would lead to bigger naps, which leads to bigger blobs.
Sure, these things happen already but a change like this would only strengthen the tendency to do so.

I really love the signal-to-noise ratio on these forums.

So can we pretend that this thread happened on another forum? I think I have a headache from actually reading walls of text that don't actually say anything. At least usually when it isn't insightful it is funny. This thread is like a mass suicide of words.

This needs to happen right now. Invention works, so why keep rewarding people who've made their fortunes by merely getting a lucky roll of the internet spaceships dice a couple of years ago?

P.S.  Jade, please stop making this about you, because this is making me think your going to fail hard at being CSM.  A crucial aspect of the position will be to present the issue and step the fuck back.  So far (and not that I'm too surprised having read your posts over the years) you are doing a shittastic job of making this into something more important then Jade versus People who just dont know as much as Jade.  Thats a shitty way to frame something.  Makes you look like a real asshole.

P.P.S.  Stop posting so much, this is a discussion forum, I dont want to read 15 of your posts every page before I get to reply.  Neither does anyone else.

I concur I think some people are a bit dissapointed in your behaviour here you come in telling us what we should believe instead of actually trying to take part on our forums amd then you turn it into a mass offensive. Oh and then Stimulus turn up to fan the flames all I'm hearing now is the psychobabble smack talk of Stimulus translated into a more intelligible and palatable format. Less Jade more Odo I say be a man of the people it's your duty. If you fail at that just be a man.

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Ok then ... do you really believe CCP will look into destructable outposts & how much of this is your personal project?

Will this be your main objective as head of CSM to try and put forward this idea? and do you feel you have the backing of the majority of the EVE players on this subject, not just your own group of peers?

What do you think is the most important issue that is being looked at seriously right now and what are your proposed changes to this? provide links.

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Nobody really asked you to come in and externally commentate things.  You aren't special in that regard.  You're not some invited guest who was assaulted and now gets to play the outraged keynote speaker.

You (apparently) arrived here in response to what you said is a mistaken characterization of your personality, or something.  That seems to have framed the whole discussion, since you now clearly consider yourself to have license to attack people back.  I guess this discussion is too poisoned on both sides to have a chance of being constructive.

You might take this as a flame, but I'm really just trying to explain why no one seems to like you here.


edited to add quote for context

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I use a nifty Firefox plugin on the offical EVE forums called CAOD-Cleaner that allows me to block individual posters, whole corps and even entire alliances.

Now that Jade's decided to pollute these forums with his streams of unreadable consciousness would it be possible to enable an "ignore user" option here too? Or is that something these forums aren't set up to do?

You're asking for respect in the same post as calling people out. That doesn't work. Besides, you're the one who cares. We were quite happy to just snipe in your general direction from across the internet before you dropped a wall of text on our heads and began the aggressive defence of your character. We would already have stopped talking about you yesterday and forgotten the whole thing if you hadn't come and given the issue more fuel.

For me this thread is like a mini-politics forum hidden away from Morat, Abagadro, and Margalis (names which mean nothing to you naturally) so the juicy low-lying fruit is still available for picking. I have no incentive to give you the benefit of the doubt.

EDIT: And as a bonus I got to show Endie which one of us wears the pants.

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Yes, there is an ignore user feature although I don't remember quite where it is.

Morat reads these forums too, although I think he's been on vacation or something for a while.

Jade: your entire first post was a screen and a half long about Martin Van Buren and had nothing to do with any CSM issues other than this guy being an assclown.  Which you may be right about.  But all you did was call someone ELSE'S character in to question, one who isn't even a member of these forums.  Yet no one's gone running to tell him that you were slandering him here.  That's not the way the game is played.  Does George Bush show up at every Democratic Party gathering and yell "LIES!  YOU'RE TELLING LIES!"?  No, probably not.

(this is not an attempt to bring real-life politics into the discussion and please don't treat it as such, it was just the first example that popped into my head.  You may as well replace George Bush with Mickey Mouse and Democratic Party with Warner Brothers)

Ok I get the VG/SB comparisons, I have been around the block a few times.  But how many people are really losing an Outpost and shrugging it off because they know they will get it back someday?  Really?  Is that happening at all?   Unfortunately I didn't notice all the details because I was focused on avoiding all the terrible posting going on.  So I'm just dealing with making Outposts destructable on its own.  I don't buy the argument that this will make a major alliance failure cascade so much more painful.


All true and sensible, something that a proponent of the system would have to address and I'm sure has been addressed in some 640 page thread on eve-o that you couldn't pay me to touch.   


Ok I've been operating under the, Sov would have to be broken before you could destroy it idea.  Anything else is quite retarded. Making it possible to Ninja Gank something that took that much time and effort to build would clearly be a bullshit attempt by certain parties to favor their playstyle.  Afterall, how many empire dwelling groups actually have the capfleet to invade 0.0?  Obvious bias is obvious if we're talking about destructable outposts ala destructable towers.


I think that passive income is better, because grinding isk sucks.  However I think that the passive income opportunity should be looked at because clearly the rich are getting too rich too fast with nothing to spend it on but more supercaps that nobody likes fighting against anyways.


Personally I never touch the Outposts in Provi, so I just dont quite see that fear as founded for the people who aren't doing Big Things in 0.0.  While I think that people in 0.0 is better, I'm not sure lack of infrastructure is really the issue.  Instead its the huge rent fees, kowtowing to big alliances, space-politics and mostly fear of losing your stuff.


For me, this is the big fear, but its a hard thing to be sure about one way or the other.  If you packaged this change with changes that would reward aggression and make fighting wars more fun, which should be a huge fucking priority anyways CCP/CSM (shooting unmoving structures from big slow unmoving ships = not fun) way above this Outpost thing on the list of Shit To Do.

This is sort of fun for some reason, so I'll bite.

You just reiterated my point.  You arrived here with a lack of respect, acting like an asshole.  Now you're being treated like an asshole.  Very succinct way of putting it!


By the way, what is a numpty?

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Thanks for answering my questions, although I feel you are slightly pushing your own personal manifesto I think you have been mostly respectful in the face of a pretty hefty tirade, kudos for that. I think most reasonable people here see that is the case but when you put yourself in a position of power or fame you open yourself up to ridicule and debate. It's best to just ride with it. I think people should at least try and keep this thread inline with the CSM discussion.

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Are there really that many people out there that just want to ruin other another Alliance's day by breaking their sovereignty, destroying their station then going home to empire?

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You're to CCP as HRose is to DAOC you uppity sack of shit. You think CCP gives a fuck what you think? I have more pull with them you uppity self-righteous assclown no-life motherfucker. Get the fuck out of here.

Edit: I forgot a comma or two in this post. But I don't care, because you're a self-entitled assbag who is too obsessed to be taken seriously. Also, people think you're a walking joke. So, let me reiterate: Get the fuck out of here.

Numpty is an English slang word meaning buffoon, idiot, clown... 'tard in late 00's internet-speak. However it's a gentle word, a jokey kind of word, not really offensive in the same way as 'tard is for instance.

It's a very middle-class kind of word now that I think about it, the kind of thing an affectionate parent might say in a humourous fashion to a child.

Why, and how?

Why do we need these wars?  The only reason you seem to give is "for the good of the game" because things are stale etc etc.  Meanwhile, every player in EVE will think in terms of his losses/gains, and oppose this because they don't want to lose more stuff, and the gain of conquering someone else's territory is, at best, meh (the vast majority of 0.0 space has crap moons and crap NPCs).

And how would CCP go about getting players to fight more?  They cannot make us fight if we don't want to, and we certainly won't want to if the only thing that changes is "brutal loss of assets for the loser."

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(http://www.ut.ee/~a73440/jade_posting.jpg)

I was trying to be civil:


Since you're obviously new at this but consider yourself experienced because you're a dirty dirty neckbeard roleplayer, I was giving you the option of leaving with some dignity intact. No one takes you seriously. You're a walking joke. You're considered a stalker by people beyond f13 and a creepy asshole who's sitting on the edge of the abyss in the game you love so much that you need to attack with WALL OF TEXT every time you have an opinion.

You have a problem. You might want to get it checked out.

Edit: Just because I called you an assbag doesn't mean I'm not civil. Should I have posted 9,000 words about why you're an assbag or maybe thrown in some clever English humor to seem "huuuuuuuuuuuularious?" Stick a knife in your dick.

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WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT

You're not in any real guild or alliance? You formed an alliance of roleplayers?

http://www.jericho-fraction.net/smf/index.php

That's your thing, rite?

Seriously? No wonder you want to be on this interstellar inneffective goverment republic spaceship lazerbeams bullshit.

It's like people will HAVE TO listen to your silly gibba-gabber about how SPACE SHOULD BE RUN.

Fucking fruitloops.

Edit: I'm not trying to burn you. I just think you're psychotic and don't know it. There's no burn there. Only the genuine feeling that you need professional help.

Goddamn, you're weird. Do you like Doug Winger?

Edited out because I really don't want to interrupt Jade's unstoppable hurf-de-blurf meeting an immovable object.

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But this isn't about RP funnies! You're missing the fucking point! Which is pretty much the MO for subversive little passive aggressive deviant fucks like yourself. I came into this forum because AoC was down. I see some new punk motherfucker in a matter of days with 52 posts and a WALL OF TEXT for every single one of them. So I think, should I just delete all of his "work" (you're self-employed right? gold farmer? no? writer? No, writing a lot doesn't make you a writer. SCA fag? probably.) or should I read it? So I read it.

You're insane. Like, literally insane. I have genuine need to help you get the help you deserve. You're insane like Arkham Sanitarium Crazy. Do you fancy yourself a game developer? Like you're going to have some sort of effect on CCP? Fuck, there might be some corrupt people over there, but you think you're going to make a lick of difference? They don't pay you. Your soapbox is made out of cardboard. Do you do it because you find it fun? I highly doubt it's just for the giggles. Otherwise you'd go get a copy of some bad indie roleplaying game and just toss some dice with your "chaps."

I have to assume you don't have a forum to call home. Most Sirbruce/Hyu/Dash types don't. They eventually drive any sort of friends they have away with their constant onslaught of insanity. We've seen it a million times. If I ban you, you'll find somewhere else to inhabit. Maybe I'm not a fan of the death penalty and want to go the rehab route. Unfortunately, the buck stops here. So you have to pick, can you turn off the self-righteous, self-entitled, assbag part of your brain and be civil and stop posting 9,000 word responses when a sentence or two will do? Can you stop talking about how you're so fucking awesome that you just have to have other people read how awesome you are? Can you say something that won't make me change you name to "dickgirl" and make it a personal vendetta to get you kicked out of Eve forever? You shit in the wrong cereal this morning. I'm high on painkillers and looking for a punching bag.

Also, you're a towel.

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We have standing policy not to ban people for making fun of admins.

I have a personal policy to not meddle in the affairs of space politics.

Furthermore, we're civilized. I don't need to prove myself to anyone because everyone here knows who I am. I don't need to prove myself to you because I've already learned everything about you. You inhabit spaces where no one likes you. It's a social disease. We helped Grunk and Broughden, we can help you too. Just let us into your heart, you silly RPing fag.

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I'm faded on percocet. I don't feel anything right now.

Actually, I never feel anything. I'm a psychopath. What's your excuse?

I'm a metro, but I don't do fur.

Contrary to popular belief, I don't have to get involved in EVERY mile-long argument. Sometimes I just like to spectate. :)

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So, in less than a paragraph, YES GODDAMN IT, "for the good of the game" is the reason you have for these changes.

Without quoting the second part, vulnerable outposts means they don't get built, and losing access to 0.0 means people just don't go there.  Maybe Factional Warfare in Empire is more interesting.  And fighting for vengeance?  HAHAHAHAHAHA!  People play to relax, they can go to AOC or WAR next for as minor reasons as "those games are more interesting" or if CCP increases its prices with those GTC's, what "vengeance"?  Only someone whose entire life revolves around EVE politics could think that way.

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WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT

Goddamn, you're weird.

You truly, actually believe that I don't want you to seek help and I'm doing it for the funnies. You're like SirBruce meets Dash meets Serek Dmart. It's absolutely unreal that anyone in Eve can tolerate you at all. Until I read your horrible platform for Interstellar Space Dork, I thought you were like 18 or 19 and I'd be able to chalk it up to No-Pussy Virginity like a few other folks on the net. But that's not it, you're 39 and just love being strange. I'm not asking you to be normal, wave that freak flag high.

But fucking hell man, learn how to talk to people. Go back through this thread. YOU'RE IMPOSSIBLE. YOU'RE EGO TAKEN FORM.

Mostly though, you need serious help. You don't have to take my opinion for it. I don't have rep in 0.0 space.

Ok, that just got too gay.

Anyway, a word of advice. No one ever accepted you. Now matter how much your mum said you were a unique snowflake with the wings of an angel.

Fake Edit: Ajax, man, you're killing my high.

Wow! I don't think I've seen someone make himself as instantly unpopular as Jade since Schild first showed up at Waterthread.org.  :awesome_for_real:

It's an innate ability due to his corrupt self-gratifying passive aggressive personality.

Me, however? I aim to please.

Ha.  I wrote that.   :awesome_for_real:

Cheers,
Jonny D.

Is the thread over?


 :cry:

It will live on in our hearts

It was a wild ride, but let's not do it again in a hurry.

The first couple of pages of this thread are amusing in retrospect.

I'm kind of sorry I missed it.

It was always going to end in fireworks.

?? Confused I am ??

I wasn't aware that ego concentrate needed sleep. If I could get rid of one thing on the web, it would be Google Alerts.

Did you edit his posts or did he really go that far to cover up how crazy he is?

I'm actually kind of bummed, I had a long post being drafted explaining what was wrong with his idea, why it wouldn't do what he said it would, and what would like happen instead (among other things, "small but leet" PvP outfits that aren't interested in holding territory and can't match even a small alliance capital throw weight would have a way to inflict serious damage on them, and with dedication and numbers could make any arbitrary chunk of 0.0 unsuitable for any level of exploitation higher than that of around 2004.  Number of super-powers would quickly be reduced, with no-man's-land regions between them where they allowed no development at all, only hunt-gatherer operations like 2003.  IOW, he hides it under a wall of text and a few convincing lies, but Jade really is just pushing an agenda that will be better for his faction, he's just been an effective enough demagogue to convince a lot of other people it would be good for them to.

0.0 warfare has definitely gotten just too damned expensive, and too random.  There may be 100's of capitals running around, but their pilots do *not* think of them as disposable, they were the product of weeks of effort and can't be replaced in a hurry.  If two 100 capital fleets meet, and one loses 20 and the other loses 40, the "winning" side has 20 guys pissed as hell about the time it will take them to rebuild (and the losing side has that problem twice over, plus they probably just lost something strategically important).  Only a few alliances have supercap blobs, for everyone else the loss of a supercap is a threat to their continued existance, but they have to use it in coordination with allies or they won't get support when they need it.

Against the background of this, you have players finally realizing that scannable complexes and belts combined with JB freighter logistics has hugely increased the amount of people who can be supported by a chunk of 0.0.  And since there's safety in numbers, they gather in places of strategic utility and just own the rest strictly in terms of denying it to others.  The ppotential productivity of a single, fully developed, region is staggering, which is why Jade can bitch about so much money flowing around 0.0, they own turf that is making them rich, he doesn't want the hassles of owning turf, so he wants a way to take away their territorial advantage since he won't adopt it.

All the wealth of 0.0 is ultimately dependant on JB's and Outposts, and their defense is hinged on cyno jammers.  So he's metagaming the designers into letting him break the big alliances.  Or trying, anyway, I hope they're smarter than that.

--Dave

It looks like I kicked his dickgirl avatar out and jumped in there myself.

(http://www.filedump.net/dumped/gfbyewhore1211952285.gif)

edit: damn black text on a dark grey background

And it's the only thing that means I still visit the official EVE forums occasionally, I'm eternally grateful for it Jonny :p

I know that Jade Constantine (go go Google Alerts) will never be able to help himself from reading this thread again. As such, I just want everyone to know that a 39 year old man in Merry Olde England just replaced all of his posts with Wall of Text and probably felt he won the day.

Except that he's 39 years old.

And he just got made to look like an asshole to the entire Eve community by a 26 year old psychopath who knows nothing about Eve and was totally faded on percocet.

Hahahaha you fuckers voted this guy into a fake position.

Oh god.

Today was awesome. Thanks, internet.

Jade, Don't suck any dick on your way through the parking lot.

Can we post pictures of "LOL INTERNETS!" now?

Please?

OK maybe not.


 :awesome_for_real:

Damm, I wasn't paying enough attention to this thread and missed all the fun.

I wonder if JD knows how much...esteem...there was placed on him to be named to be in such company to get such a response.

What the fuck happened in this thread ?  :ye_gods:

Good God!

There are only 2 reasons why someone would go back through an eight page thread (of which he was the majority poster) and meticulously erase every single post after the avatars of his forum identity were altered by a moderator.

Possibility 1: He threw the internet equivalent of a kindergarden hissy-fit because he couldn't stand on being the butt end of a joke.

Possibility 2: He thought that by erasing his posts he was denying everyone the golden nuggets of wisdom contained therein, since anyone that makes fun of him obviously does not deserve them.


Possibility 1 just makes him look like a self-absorbed dick with a catastrophically inflated ego and no sense of humor.

Possibility 2 proves that he is a self-absorbed dick with a catastrophically inflated ego and no sense of humor.

Edit: Spelling

We had a tea party!  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

A pissing match.  Schild won.  Now we're all a little damp.

--Dave

With tears of joy.

Schild has valiantly defended our nest from the invader and we are safe once more from the walls of text and soapbox posturing.

You missed #3, which is far simpler and more likely.

He's bug-fucking nuts.

Well it looks like the CSM is a total flop and CCP are rueing the day. It seems that less than 10% of active the player base voted on it, Jita park gets about 4 posts a day and is fast becoming as retarded as the feautures and ideas discussion.

I now rename it the "Council of Fail" or COF.

OK I am taking back this thread now.

The first meeting chatlogs are out (here (http://www.eve-csm.com/#csmmeetings)) but they are really fucking boring and 36 pages long. There's nothing in there... except jade being all serious business and darius being funny.

It's clear now that it's high school all over again in there:

Notables for fun!


Hardin > we are all equals here
Jade Constantine > I’ve got no problem with that
Darius JOHNSON > Wait I AM AN IMPORTANT SPACE CEO

Jade Constantine > now then we've got a slight issue
Darius JOHNSON > Type fast frauline
Jade Constantine > only applicants for v sec are already in roles
Ankhesentapemkah > Will do, Darius.
Darius JOHNSON > Ankh bane thinks you're a qtpie btw

[ 2008.05.24 18:55:48 ] Inanna Zuni > ((Darius ... Goons have a reputation which I do not know if it is true or not from personal experience, but you were elected to serve here so please do so,. Thank you))

LaVista Vista > While I do see why everything being public is good, I do find that there is some people on the forums, who don't respect CSM, and try to make our lives hard with no reason.

Jade Constantine > and Darius, you said you had nothing more to add could you please respect the process of the meeting
Darius JOHNSON > farts

[ 2008.05.24 18:19:02 ] Ankhesentapemkah > You can trust me, Darius.

[whether jade should have the power to sign off papers before being sent to CCP]
[ 2008.05.24 18:50:02 ] Darius JOHNSON > We all sign or there's no signing
[ 2008.05.24 18:50:06 ] Darius JOHNSON > period

[ 2008.05.24 17:37:16 ] Darius JOHNSON > I also agree with Jade's call for brevity

[ 2008.05.24 18:52:14 ] Darius JOHNSON > Don't tell me when to and when not to speak
[ 2008.05.24 18:52:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > that too yes
[ 2008.05.24 18:52:20 ] Jade Constantine > Sorry Darius , but yes .... shush please

[ 2008.05.24 18:48:45 ] Darius JOHNSON > What the fuck am I voting on?

[ 2008.05.24 18:36:04 ] Bane Glorious > Sunday would be nice considering that Saturday is the Sabbath and all

[ 2008.05.24 17:37:24 ] Inanna Zuni > Xhagen, if I might ask you to step away from your wall a moment (!) .. as you/CCP started this great idea how do you see the mechanics of making it happen effectively?
[ 2008.05.24 17:37:59 ] Darius JOHNSON > I think it's important for us to have blue text as well
[ 2008.05.24 17:38:10 ] Leandro Salazar > /emote wonders what he is missing as he sees no Xhagen in the channel
[ 2008.05.24 17:38:19 ] Inanna Zuni > not blue - we aren't devs and don't have any power - but something to signify on forums especially
[ 2008.05.24 17:38:25 ] Hardin > yep
[ 2008.05.24 17:38:26 ] Jade Constantine > Inanna please
[ 2008.05.24 17:38:33 ] CCP Xhagen > I do not have anything to put on the agenda
[ 2008.05.24 17:38:36 ] Inanna Zuni > Leandro - whilst devs appear on SiSi not here
[ 2008.05.24 17:38:37 ] Jade Constantine > we're trying to finalize the agenda so that Ank can take notes
[ 2008.05.24 17:38:38 ] Darius JOHNSON > You're totally banned when I get ban power

Forty minutes later:

[ 2008.05.24 18:17:34 ] Darius JOHNSON > Xhagen when do I get blue text? This is important

I made this account yesterday to respond to his insanity but for some reason the website stopped responding.  Here i am now.   
I really hope CCP sees the powergrap and spoiled attitude of Jade.  I know they won't let him ruin our game, but it's annoying to watch him try.

That being said.  Hi, i'm arrogant and kind of a prick.

You'll fit right in then.

I was actually going to post a link to this thread's Jaderush in the "CSM RESULTS ARE OUT" thread on gf, but I thought that it was going really well as it was, and we really didn't need HCLChicken and Nuvanito practising their awesome burns in here and making Jade look good.

 :oh_i_see:

Jita Park isn't getting any more posts because everyone has switched to Assembly Hall, where you can vote to support whatever thread you're replying to.  Assembly Hall, however, only has people re-iterating the issues they brought up in Jita Park previously, and most of the issues have less than 50 votes.

Also, the issues posted are, in my opinion, too narrow...  I mean, "Fix 1400mm artillery guns please" as an issue?  Nobody seems to be going for the broader stuff, like "review / rebalance the different weapon types" or stuff like that.

EDIT:  I think CCP was expecting the CSM members to, sort of, moderate Assembly Hall, or at least bang a gavel and yell 'Order!  Order!" and post some issues and have discussions, but they don't seem to be doing that.  I see a Lavista Vista one, and that's about it.

Right, so i know this was asked on the first page, but could anyone actually explain wtf these elected people are supposed to do? To help Bhodi get this thread back on track, could someone also make some kind of bullet-point list of what they think could be changed, and is in the realm of the possible?

I suspect some good points were brought up earlier, but the WALLOFTEXT monster killed my brain at some stage.

Fortunate for those fans of pure, non-revisionist history, most of Jade's posts were quoted by other posters.  Unless he somehow managed to find a way to edit OTHER people's posts too.

They are supposed to gather the issues we feel are most important, discuss them with us, and then present them to CCP in some bulleted form.  CCP will then respond to each issue in a formal way.  CCP's posted a dev blog about it, with a long PDF (http://myeve.eve-online.com/download/devblog/CSM.pdf) and a short PDF (http://myeve.eve-online.com/download/devblog/CSMSummary.pdf).

Instead, here's what happened:

1. Semi-polite introductions
2. Election of positions within council
3. Mode of communication between council members, coming to agreement that it should be hosted by CCP
4. Disclosure/transparency discussion in which council members differed in opinion as to how much should be divulged publicly
5. Discussion about how to decide what issues were important - this went nowhere slow
6. Pissing match about Jade signing minutes of meeting prior to sending to CCP, followed by persistent protest by Darius that the Chair is equal to the rest of the council and should not have exclusive document signing rights

Admittedly, it's only the first, but still.

So they didn't even GET to the issues? They only got as far as deciding (or trying to decide) "how to decide which issues are important"? Jeeeeesus..

I would've though that point (5) is what they should have bloody well started with.

Right, well, my interpretation of the various CCP blogs I've read is that "what issues are important" is supposed to be decided via voting in the Assembly Hall, and that hasn't taken off (yet?).  CCP's idea behind the CSM members was that they'd be free to "champion" whatever issues they have, and thus those with issues on their agendas will likely forward those issues without prompting from us. 

But, the playerbase was supposed to also have a vote and be able to forward issues, by voting on them.  However, CCP wants 11,000 votes per issue before it can be pushed through, and that ain't happening.  Like I've been saying, 50 votes seems to be the average.

Thus, it's a failure until CCP decides to reduce that 11,000 number to something more realistic.  And, until then, the only issues on the table are personal agenda ones, and the problem with that is that a few CSM's have agendas, but the majority of them don't.  They're waiting for the players / someone else to vote and thus build an agenda for them.

It may be an absurd oversimplification, but I think the results of this indicate why "inmates running the asylum" is regarded as a bad thing.

Does anyone really think that CCP cares about our opinions anyway?  They're likely to ignore all but the most easily-implemented, practical issues.  Everything else will get "we're looking into this" or some similarly vague response.  I'm pretty sure someone else already mentioned it, but the whole CSM thing strikes me as a way of diverting our displeasure away from CCP and onto our elected officials.  Next time there's a dev scandal, we get to go running to Winger Dickgirl instead of directly to the company.

You ever have a close brush with something truly horrible but didn't realize it at the time?  After reading this thread I now realize how close I came to the abyss.  See, back when I played Eve I almost joined Star Fraction.  Unfortunately, real life interrupted which ended up being the beginning of the end of my time in Eve so I never did join.  I can only assume that there is indeed a Benevolent God, for in retrospect I see what really happened was Him kindly steering me away from the mountain of fucktardery that is Jade Constantine.

He does work in mysterious ways  :grin:

Yeah, I wound up back where I started, the CSM is going to be a clusterfuck of truly monumental proportions.  Unless CCP realizes what a mess they've made, and has the courage to take the PR hit for simply ignoring them and disbanding it after this cycle.

--Dave

They should have just gone down the forums, picked two or three regular forum posters with a solid understanding of that aspect of the game (modules, trading, invention, corp, PvP, PvE, whatever) and the respect of the mouth-breathers in that sub-forum and told them "Hey, would you keep a running list of what you guys think is causing the most grief? And if anyone has any good suggestions in terms of gameplay mechanics, we'd love to hear them. Here, you can be a mod and make stickies. We'll check back quarterly".

Actually, thats a pretty solid idea that would probably accomplish more then this whole CSM mess.

Reading through that chatlog, there's a subtle point that CCP Xhagen makes that the CSM's are supposed to pick up issues and forward them, with the 11,000 votes only being neccessary if they all vote NO to an issue and we still want to push it through despite that.  I.E. we don't need 11,000 votes after all, all we have to do is post issues for them to look at.  I wonder if they've picked up on that.

To be honest that doesn't really work either in this particular instance. Remember that this is CCP who are fighting a fairly major credibility issue over their impartiality. The CSM program isn't just to empower players it's so that CCP can point at the changes they make and say 'See! We did this because the guys you picked asked us to.' Unfortunately what they have is neither fish nor fowl. It falls short of being a player empowerment program because the noise to signal ratio is off the scale (as it always will be with this type of program) and it isn't an oversight committee either because the CSMs have no oversight on anything.

The way I'd have done it would be to pull the SiSi logs and figure out who spends a lot of time testing shit out there. Anyone with time on their hands and an agenda to push can manage a crazy postcount but the guys who are heavy duty theorycrafters on test are the guys who really care about the game. Do some background checks to make sure that they aren't someone too crazy and to make sure you have a reasonable mix of racial pilots, industry types, traders, guys with political experience etc and then send them a nice email. Tell them that you're trying to work more closely with the players and if they want to they can come and discuss their theorycrafting on a subforum of your internal boards. Assign a CM and a producer to keep an eye on them and to throw them the occasional bone while they happily do ivory tower building or stat crunching for you. Be pretty harsh on kicking people out of the garden if they start being jerks and be reasonably flexible about inviting new people in if theres a good chance they'll be productive. No-one has unrealistic expectations, it costs you nothing and anything that comes out of it is gold-plated PR. Unfortunately that approach won't work for CCP because a lot of their players don't trust them.

I'm sure CCP are more interested in getting a few "CCP breaks new ground again with the first player elected council blah blah blah" write-ups than anything else.

That's a good idea and might have worked, not sure.  Honestly I don't know how many people they get on SiSi nowadays; I know that when I want to do "theorycrafting" about ships I run to EFT or similar tools, and if it's industry or POSes or traderun profitability calculations, there are tools or Excel is good enough for my purposes.  So, I don't see myself using SiSi for theorycrafting; it's there if I want to specifically help them test bugs or for a preview of upcoming attractions, and not much else.

You just basically described the Team Lead program I started at Mythic.  Most of them were for classes, but we had some "at large" TL's for things like Crafting and Frontiers issues.  It was basically a parliamentary cabinet sort of deal, when it was time to replace a TL, the existing TL's (and the outgoing one, if they weren't getting booted) put forward candidates that seemed to understand that area (and voiced any objections to others candidates), and the Mythic employee that interfaced with them (me at first, when it was completely informal) picked the one that seemed the best fit.  And they submitted reports on a private forum, which then got distilled down to a "hot list" of bullet items and mixed with similar lists coming from Sanya and customer service.  I regularly pinged developers in charge of various systems to come read or particpate in discussions of their area of responsibility.

Thing was, I wasn't trying to create a system of player governance, just close some feedback loops.  You put so much emphasis on it, and make it democratic, you get too many of *exactly* the kind of people I tried to keep out of it, political animals with an agenda that went way beyond just providing information about what was wrong in the game, and why.  Or drama queens who were just trying to stir shit up, God save me from those.

--Dave

This. They got some decent PR & exposure out of it with the added bonus that as long as they entertain this CSM thingy they can both use it to funnel discontent among the users and proclaim it as an accolade of user/corporate interaction without having to invest much into it.
It's a pretty good idea even if it leads to nothing constructive in the end.

I don't know, with these personality types they seem likely to have to invest more time and energy than they bargained for.


Agreed - the problem with democracy is that you then need politicians.  And lawyers.  Yeesh..

Plus we got an entertaining thread out of it, and also get to mock the people who posted "Jade is sure to be better for EVE than the ebil Goonies!!!11"  :grin:

Would just like to point out that I totally called it on page 1.

Wait, what the fuck? I thought you were just being a dick by running an UPDATE query on all of his shit. I guess that proves that the space whore is really a fucking faggot.

Nah, we didn't fuck with it. If you'll see, they all have the edit sig by him and a timestamp that's different.

An CAOD-active EVE player that managed to rank first in the votes produced an overinflated ego. Who would've thought.

This whole CSM stuff will degenerate due to shit like this. I'll predict the transgendered dicksucker shitting up all these meetings until either he gets kicked out by CCP or the others call it quits.

Feel free to try but just because he's a raging ego maniac fucked in the head RP'er doesn't mean that he's worse for EVE then the GS candidates who can barely even pretend that they aren't trolling the entire process.  Goons are still terrible for CSM I stick by that.  Fuck GS if they aren't making funny videos/songs.  I stick by that also.  If nothing else Jade will try to take the whole thing seriously (too seriously most likely) and try to make it work.  The GS guys are probably looking to just fuck it up completely for laughs, if not that they are looking to help GS, if not that they are just morons who got elected because their alliance is big.  Woohoo I'm making friends today! 

Btw, anyone else notice that the War thread is quiet as fuck now adays?  Funny that...    :oh_i_see:

I'll say it for the 10th time, I have nothing against any single member of any single organization be it SF or GS (Endie and Bhodi can we still be buddies??  :-P) but as a whole GS has always annoyed the fuck out of me, I've always been rooting for BoB and I'm glad GS and their righteous coalition is falling apart.  I look forward to when BoB forms their own little NAPtrain and wtfsmashes GS.  Then again right now they can't even seem to handle the idiots in the north who couldn't even outnumber and own IRC/ED according to the shit I've read on CAOD (see that forum is good for something lol).

You've always had an irrational hatred for GS, I don't hold it against you :)

I've been updating the war thread pretty regularly, though... or maybe you mean non-GF updates?

I'm thrilled that Jade's visit has made it suddenly OK to spout homophobic bile.  And to think I'd been holding myself back all of this time.

Dont be such a queen.

Being gay would have given him some normalcy.

I don't regret my 2 votes for Goumingdong at all now. CCP :uhrr:

Only if they can somehow work this in:

"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently."

Reading the log, it was never entirely clear why CCP would want to recieve minutes.

CCP just has to keep it going. As long as they can keep some people interested, it's real and marketable.

Several issues are now marked with "CSM have voted to take this to CCP" in this sticky they have (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=783002).  I did not see any mention of a second meeting, logs or anything like that, perhaps I missed it.  Or perhaps they're not posting logs, ever again.

EDIT:  Oops sorry my bad.  The second meeting's chat log is here (http://www.eve-csm.com/#csmmeetings).

EDIT2:  Summary:  they picked the 10 most popular issues on the forums and voted on whether or not to send them over to CCP.  That's what's marked in the sticky above..   Sometimes they express their own opinions on the various issues, before they vote on them, if you want to read through all that.

Heh, Amarr:

Heh, Amarr:

 :-o

What's this all about?

Those who read through Jade's self-serving diatribes about how 0.0 was static and risk-free will no doubt suffer cognitive dissonance at the fact that 18 outposts changed hands - all due to violence - in the last 12 days.

More information, please.

Unfortunately you can't link to Outpost Alert pages until they're a month old, but here's a cut and paste from the email:

This being for 5-19 to 6-1

I finally came to the conclusion that CSM must be an ironic in-joke or something, by name and execution. You know, stellar management.

I enjoyed how the entire first hour of the second meeting was spent complaining about how last time they spent too long on process, bureaucracy, and dick waving.

Irony thy name is Stellar.

EXCITING times in the world of the council!

There have been two logs since we last saw..

http://www.eve-csm.com/meetings/chatlogs/20080531councilofstellarmanagementlogs.rtf
Not much happened of note here...


HOWEVER, in the latest one...
http://www.eve-csm.com/meetings/chatlogs/20080608councilofstellarmanagementlogs.rtf

FINALLY some drama!
Here's (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=788122&page=3) an increasingly entertaining thread about it.
a few choice quotes:

Four hours. That bullshit lasted for four hours..

I think the second and third times he was trying to unmute her but either typed the wrong command (mute) or there's no un-mute function.  Likely that there's no un-mute, and the only way to un-mute someone is to mute them again but with a very short expiration timer (one minute?) so that in fact it runs out and the person can type again.  It's a beautiful UI.

I liked the part where it turns out that the meeting minutes haven't been published because CCP hasn't signed off on them, and they tell CCP to "do your job." 

It's a pretty lousy setup for this CSM term.  First CCP forces them to have the live meeting merely weeks after they've been voted, then they schedule the release of their Factional Warfare expansion within the same time-frame, which of course means that they're too damn busy to do any of this CSM stuff. 

IMO, typical CCP behavior; despite being a company with (now) multiple departments, they still cannot do more than one thing at a time, and the "Soon" crap is still happening.

This is the bit that I find most revealing:


I am deilghted that the "Fuck, Jade is a self-obsessed, self-serving shithead" constituency is growing exponentially.

Edit: "[ 2008.06.08 19:47:50 ] Bane Glorious > i just want to talk about spaceships please"

And people thought that Goons would be the disruptive ones?  By my maths there are now 4 solid and one likely votes of no confidence in the chair.

Yeah, there are many many threads about it all over the E-O forums now.

Oh hey, I was right again?  :grin:

Simond, you're prophetic!

It takes a special kind of douche bag to flat out deny something written, while said something is plain for everyone to see.


"THE SKY IS GREEN FUCKERS, GREEN!"


 :awesome_for_real:

Someone on Goonfleet spotted this thread and posted it in the warroom.  Schild is currently being quoted verbatim and at length, while receiving the maddest of furious props.

We're also getting a running commentary on Jade's shenanigans: he seems to be pretty close to the edge, and having lost votes on his powergrabs (to do with voting procedures and alternates, clearly in an attempt to railroad stuff in the absence of some of the five members now ranged against him) twice in a row, has now scheduled an identical vote for Sunday while appealing directly to CCP to ignore the previous decisions of the council of which he is the chair?!?

Edit: and he forced the council to vote on his pet destructible stations idea, despite it getting a paltry total of well under a hundred approvals, tops, from a playerbase of hundreds of thousands.

The ccp guy in charge of that crap will squish him the first good chance he gets, this boat is going nowhere with that mad napoleon at the helm. But doing that while maintaining the 'omg look at the player democracy in our game' message they have been trying to send out will be a delicate job.

Jade's pretty much just gone off the rails - Darius is giving us updates on his email conversations. He's just a screaming frothing mess at this point; he just found out that the e-mail thread that endie's talking about is being CC'd to the goonfleet boards. Not Jade's words, mind you, as there may be some legal reasons behind it, but Darius's (and Bane's) responses to his crazy walls of text. He's threatening to "take action" due to this "breach of trust".

I'd love to post the email logs, I'm leaving it alone until it cooks a bit more and comes out on eve-o or something, but I will post them here when I can. It's a delicious drama-filled tasty treat!

Yep at the moment it boils down to:

Darius "Well guys, jade is trying x so here is a quote of my reply"

Jade "You cannot share what we are discussing with others, even if you don't share my emails!"

Darius "So you believe that transparency to the electorate is a bad thing?  I move to have the full email thread put in the public domain!  Information wants to be free!"

 :popcorn:

Oh man F13 is getting mentioned on Eve-O now.  Prepare for the threadnaught!

Someone link to the Eve-O thread that links back to F13, to complete the circle or something!

(it's here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=4)) (and here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=792532&page=12))

Don't worry those who don't have an eve account and can't see it, I'll let it fill up and then post a digest for everyone to laugh at.

That is unbearably awesome!

 :woot:

I feel insular and super-nerdy just asking this but did this forum see a spike in guest browsing once Jade vs f13-gate hit Eve-O?

When Jade was still posting there were a LOT of "Guests"

Great and I'm the idiot who was supporting him before all this happened...   :ye_gods:

Tbh I dont trust GS to this day to put the "good of the game" first, or even have a great perspective of what that might mean.  But Jade proved here and continues to prove a complete inability to let an issue stand on its own and not make it be either the issue versus jade or jade + the issue versus everyone.  He can't not have it be about him, thats pretty sad.  I figured someone who dedicates so much time and really isn't a total moron (be fair) would be bothered to actually do a good job.  Instead he's taken the rope given by GS and fucking hung himself, while putting on clown makeup.

Shoving through the stupid OMG destructable stations thing sort of makes me think he already senses either his position as chairman or position on the CSM all together might be coming to a quick end.

/waves to eve-o guests.

Don't worry Hoax your not the only one who supported him. /me runs for the hills ...  :mob:

At least Hardin's not descending into the mud-slinging with the rest of them.  Or is he and I hadn't noticed?

Do you really think he even needs to mud-sling with people doing it for him. Hell does he even need to actively post right now posting only gives people things to misinterpret and try and fling back. Right now he is stay clean and out of it so that when he does have something to say people will actually look at it and not see static.

Jade you reading this ? what sillyfish just said... pronto.

I know its kinda old but .. "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt "

But jade will never be anything but static because no one will ever read his posts unless he can make a point and not a three page essay.

I think best course of action would be CCP turning EVE into a singleplayer game with a NPC filled world, every NPC shouting obscenities into local chat. This would probably be more enjoyable than the retard fest it has become. In 2004, when I started playing, the retards were just a low noise floor. Now it's turned 180°. Maybe it's just faux memories, tho.

Sounds like my memories of UO. Then I played on official servers after tram. Reminded me at least my memories will be rose tinted.

Of course, the true hilarity of this whole thing is we (Goonswarm) can just back one candidate next time, crowbar them into the chairman's position, then have them mute everybody except themselves and win every vote with a majority of 1-0.  :awesome_for_real:

After all, that is the final destination of the route Jade is currently heading down.

Works for me. Stuff would probably get done to.

Something I enjoyed on the forums:


Awesome on so many levels.

Another good one from Jade:


30 tech 2 battleships on a major pvp op would have been an interesting thing to see.

My tech 2 battle ships :tantrum: I't doesn't matter that black ops ships blow and the only other tech 2 battle ships are meant for pve and have shitty sensor strength. If he means t2 fit ships well he still has no idea how to play the game or fit a ship.

No, but that doesn't mean he's not getting talked about (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=501893#501893)


(the response is worth mentioning as well)

Jade's way of dealing with the fact that people don't agree with it has been to divide the council into make-believe "factions" of "with it" and "against it". Attacking Hardin has been a Jade pastime for a while now. v0v At least I got some sweet nothings out of the deal. (I wish I got Bane's end of the bargain)

I never realized the CSM was such a sexy place!

Doesn't seem a very smart way to split the council either.

I mean, if Jade imagines Hardin as the leader of some subversive CVA/Goon dominated element, then that's three members, plus presumably that guy who Jade muted makes four, one more dirty goon lover and you got yourself a permanent majority. Woot?

When you're never wrong and the only reason people don't agree with you is because they hate you personally because they're jealous of you or something this is an easy mistake to make.

Jade doesn't strike me as a very politically savvy person.  He FANCIES himself one, though.  That leads to a lot of buffoonated attempts to pull stunts like this that almost always misfire. 

His presence here was one too.  I mean, he thinks he won the intarnet but replacing all your posts with WALL OF TEXT I think strikes most people as more a tantrum than anything.

I used to LARP with Andy Cruse. Back then he was a powergaming egomaniac who would bludgeon his way through forum discussions by avoiding the discussion of any relevant points but instead responding with long and rambling walls of text on how anyone who disagreed with him was fundamentally retarded. Giving him any credibility is a mistake, giving him any actual power is a disaster.

More please.  Much, much more.  Anecdotes involving inappropriate touching would be best.

It was many years ago and the boards in question no longer exist. If anyone wants to play internet detective though, he was leader of House Constantine who were a part of the Harts Faction in the Lorien Trust's Gathering system.

Doing 'an Andy Cruse' became the accepted term for walls of text that sapped your will to live.

Found this forum at the office today.  Highly entertaining, a pity I missed out on the now edited content, ah well ;)

I think Inanna is a woman, actually, so muting her was doubly disastrous, as he's been finding out.

Correct, the rep from Electus Matari is female (or so they tell me when we are not threatening each other).  The other female being ankjrutfh64y3ujtfg or whatever her name is =)

Ankhesetapemkah - Ankh ese tape mkah.  Call her Leeloo.

EDIT:  eh, I missed an n there.  Ankhesentapemkah.  My mnemonic device won't work now.

see how my answer is better?  :P

Except Leeloo Dallas multi-pass was awesome fifth element is awesome. Milla Jovovich is hot but in some bad movies.

What in the holy fuck are you silly assholes talking about?

MUL TI PASS

Anyway.  It is a pity the CSM is such a mess right now.  Better hopes for the future and all that.


**Edit**
I believe we are talking about the gender breakdown of the CSM.  My original post was amusement at this thread.  The group I am a part of has dealt with this sort of thing for years..

I hate to break it to you - The CSM means nothing, never will and is a completely flawed idea. I don't even play the game. But banking on it meaning anything, ever meaning anything, or as anything more than a symbol is just harebrained. It's time to move on. Go mine or blow up some guy and laugh about the haul.

Oh, it may indeed mean nothing.   It might have meant *something* but this is just a mess.  I had hoped for a small start.  Let them tackle a few issues and build momentum.  This is just a comedic disaster.

I think it was just an excuse for CCP to get us to post more signal than noise on a separate forum (or two), rather than in General Discussion or whatnot.  They don't need a face-to-face meeting with a bunch of players / forum warriors to see what we're whining about - the [issues] are now conveniently all sorted in one forum, with votes (however few) ranking them by importance, and all the "discussion" that they can possibly handle reading.  The whole meeting thing and handing out the answers is for the benefit of keeping us talking and keeping the S:N ratio high in the Assembly Hall forum.

EDIT:  Of course, it's degenerating into CAOD and that's probably not good in their eyes.

It is good for something, providing drama to keep the masses enthralled.

GIven CCP's efforts in the past to duck, avoid and blame shift onto the whistle blowers I find it highly doubtful the CSM would ever have amounted to anything but a distraction that could simultaneously shut up the complainers and distract people from looking too closely at CCP.

This might be more true than I had previously considered.  Take a look at this thread - second only to War as the biggest thread here.

It's got some catching up to do, but I think this thread is up to it!

I spent a few hours reading the various CSM threads last night.  The thing that struck me is how even when Jade makes a valid point, is actually right about something, he does it in such an annoying manner that it's bound to cause even more drama and disruption.  Hardly chairmanlike.

Nobody likes an arrogant ass, but after years of board whoring it appears that he simply can't get out of "winning teh internetz" mode.

The general EVE public has only been subjected to this for a few weeks.  Some of us have been dealing with it for YEARS.

Why haven't you done extensive infiltration into his corporation structure and stolen some of the 86ish t2 bpo's his corp has. The person who has to deal with him daily would get have of it and a bottle of rum. The rest you uses to make him cry on TS and record it. Also he and peoke seem like they were made for each other.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've started checking this thread way more often than I catch up on the War thread.

We haven't had a source of comedy gold like this since Grunk.

Actually, I'm putting up the OMG-Awesome-in-here sign over this thread.

(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/913/13signit1.jpg)

This shit is why I am unlikely to ever buy a character.

que?

Queso?

Mmmm.

Lots of reasons I could give you but the easiest is we do not engage in that kind of activity.

*runs up to thread panting*

Hey guys.  *Gasps for Breath*  What'd I miss?

OK, I know who Jade Constantwhine is, I know Goumindong from his... um...  unique opinions in the PvE/PvP forums in GF while Pezzle is, unless I am very much mistaken, CVA.  So who is Sillyfish?  My guess, from the 86 BPOs reference and the firm opinions on peoke, we're talking another goon.

Yes, I am CVA.  Did Peoke claim to own 86 T2 bpo's?  I know Jade bragged at one time about his extensive T2 portfolio, maybe the reference was to that.

Yes, the reference is from here, to the goonfleet forums, where you are quoted, on here, where you quote Jade.  If Peoke had amassed such riches then he would have had to be, in some limited way, competent.

This thread is like an iceberge.  Lots of stuff on the surface, but so much more under the water (Goon forums) that most of us will never see.

It's not exactly difficult to get information from the Goon forums.  :grin:

Welcome to another edition of Jade's eve-o roundup!

Wherein someone finds the eve roleplaying brothel chatroom before Jade took it down (what we were talking about on page 1-2 of this thread)

Jade agrees to take a revote on the CSM Chair...

Someone notices Jade is taking pointers from a 1944 Business Sabotage manual (http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2008/06/11/simple-sabotage/)...

An entire Jade callout thread entitled The CSM do not represent the best interests of EVE. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=794225)
... several Jade walls of text later ...
Jade's gender bending makes it difficult to figure out what to call him/her/it:

Typical Jade behavior.  I knew about the brothel page a long time ago.  I think it came up on the chatsubo, a place I have all but abandoned.  Unless they have been purged there are some serious hate flame threads in the archives there.  Everything you see in these CSM and related threads is a repeat of behavior that was documented to the point of nausea.

IT RUBS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN.


Sorry, Jade brings out the Buffalo Bill in me.  But it was asking for it.

This is why I love EvE, in what other game would the exposure of a in-game reverse-gender pornographic chatroom be considered a minor side-issue?

I was going to say 'Second Life' but then realised that would probably be viewed as a positive over there.

mostly because it is fun to say

look at dat fuqqin wall of text! :ye_gods:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/mb/news.asp?nid=2072

Yep, there is little doubt who wrote that lengthy puff piece up.

First CSM trip to Iceland is over. From what they've been posting, it sounds like it went well. Jade was not killed in any fits of nerd rage.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=801854 - Bunch of the CSMs posting here. Not much real info.

http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=17707 - Hardin and Jade posting here. More info here.

GTCs: After being pushed, CCP agreed that their original reason for the changing of GTCs was pretty much fluff and market-speak. They said that handling all the different cards was difficult to admin, plus the whole thing just didn't help CCPs bottom line. They much prefer people use credit cards and similar things.

0.0: They want to change up the sov system since right now, sov battles are won by who can blob the most. They'd like to do more FW types things where instead of having a 300 man battle over a single objective, have 10 30-man battles instead. Jump bridges force 0.0 to look like a bunch of castles with teleporters in the courtyards. They want to change that so there's more opportunity for logistics pvp.

Destructible outposts: Jade's pet project. They said due to technical issues, they couldn't be blown up. One idea that did come up with the possibility of "pillaging" outposts (taking their fittings and stuff and leaving a husk of a station). The owner still keeps control but it would require a bunch of isk to get it working again.

Black Ops: CCP agreed that they're overnerfed and would like to makes some changes to it. They talked about ships having a additions "fuel" cargohold so they could adjust the jump distances for individual ships. Another idea was to give the deep space transports a covert role so they could use the covert cyno.

Yeah.  It's "technically" a stupid idea.

Outpost pillaging! Space Vikings are  :heart:

Actually, I'd be plenty happy with moon mining POS pillaging which probably has a better chance of being implemented.

Like the sound of deep space transports & black ops tech.

All of it, SoonTM though.

Just flew in a CVA gang and one of the ships was named WALL OF TEXT.

Ok, so, I wanted to post what is probably a complete plagiarism of CCP's bunker system and/or the threads about cynojammers and pos warfare etc., and ask your opinions about it.


TLDR version:
- moons and planets function like (ship hi/med/low) slots
- specialized military towers/bunkers should be introduced to function like the modules we use on ships (one tower per moon = one function per moon)
- industrial infrastructure must harvest local resources to fuel military assets (local resources would determine how many towers you can anchor/support)
- cynojammer arrays should function like WCS'es (send a fleet of cyno alts in, to overcome the many cynojammer bunkers the defenders have anchored)
- sov. should be determined by military anchorables, and not by industrial POSes/outposts/infrastructure
- military assets must be taken out in a certain order (like the vulnerable/invulnerable mechanic from FW) and otherwise all contribute to the sov. level.


Long Version:

CCP did the following (not in that order, but that's the result):

- they made moons function like slots that we could anchor things at
- made planets function like higher level slots for anchoring other things at
- randomized the number of moons and planets

- randomized the resources in the system that we can harvest (roids, ice, moon contents, spawns, complexes), and sustaining any anchored assets doesn't depend on local resources as fuel.  Instead, shit must be hauled from Empire to be used as fuel.

- gave us control over the HP and durability of the various modules we can anchor (any module can be placed at the strongest possible deathstar, so everything is super-tanked).

I'd guess that the fix they're looking for is something like this (they haven't said this; this is my own armchair design/compilation/plagiarism):

- Categorize all anchorable assets into two categories:  military and industrial.

- Make each military component a stand-alone, anchorable tower/bunker, with its own shields, HP's, and defense guns (so CCP can balance them).  We should have cynojammer bunkers, system defense bunkers (ze deathstar), gate defense bunkers, system scanner bunkers, and so on, and we should be able to anchor one per moon.  Ships should be able to hide inside the shields of these things and aid in the defense.

- Regular POSes should contain industrial modules (harvesters, reactors, hangars) and be anchorable at any moon not used by a military installation (and viceversa).

- The industry should supply the military (for example, must harvest atmospherics at a POS in order to keep cynojammers fueled).

- The military assets should be inter-linked so that the presence of all of them contributes to system defense / sovereignty, and so that they're vulnerable / invulnerable in some order, and must be attacked in a particular sequence.  For example, take out system defense bunkers before cynojammers become vulnerable, etc.  Mandatory wait periods (based on stront) can be built into this mechanic to give defenders time to react.

- Make Sovereignty level depend on the presence and health of military bunkers only and not depend on the industrial POSes.  Give each industrial and military asset a bonus per level of sov., so that bigger sov increases defenses a little and increases the industrial side quite a bit.  (Make Sov. level function like the "per skill level" ship bonuses.)

- Switch cynojammers to the WCS system:  let us anchor as many cynojammer bunkers as the local moon slots can support, and if the enemy wants to beat that they can send in a whole bunch of cyno alts to beat the total jamming strength.  For example, if there are 6 cynojammers in the system and the enemy sends in 7 (fleeted) cyno alts, and the defenders don't take them out fast, the enemy cap fleet can get a lock on one of the alts and jump in.

- POSes and Outposts should just be rally points and industrial bases (with some defenses).  Taking them out should not be neccessary to gain sov. or conquer the system, and it shouldn't be as hard as it is now.  Taking out the military bunkers should be the only requirement for conquering the system, and should be where the difficulty and the need for firepower is.  The POSes / Outpost should just be the (optional) loot drops once the system is conquered / Sov is taken.

Is something like this feasible?  Is it desirable?  Would they have to re-seed all 0.0 solar systems to re-balance moon counts and harvestables, in order for this to work?

Sound like certain Outposts that were deliberately placed in low-moon systems back when keeping more than a dozen reserve POS was a stretch would wind up very vulnerable, almost unholdable in some cases (the lowest count I know of was 5, FIX built our ED- station there because it had 11).

It's a lot more workable than destructible outposts.  Throw in Stargates as a garrison point so you can keep the enemy from camping your own gates with trivial forces, and you'd have a plan.

--Dave

What does the gate bunker idea mean for roaming gangs?  Each red system you warp into will have a scram and web battery at the gate to catch one or two of you?

STOP IT YOUR RUINING THIS THREAD ABOUT JADE HOW CREATING SUPER-POWERD SPESUL POSTERS HAS NO DOWNSIDES.

 :grin:

I think actually playing EVE would reduce my enjoyment of it.

Well, these things would be defensive structures that a fleet would need to destroy in order to take sov., and not freeform towers that the defenders can deathstar and anchor webs and scrams and set to aggro.  Basically, CCP decides how many HP's and shields a gate bunker would have, and whether it has guns, ewar capabilities, etc.  We just plop it down to add to sov.; we can defend it with ships, but it's not a POS tower that we can anchor stuff at.

The idea is to let us customize the whole system (the smallest sov. unit) by fitting it out like a ship with various fixed-capability towers (not neccessarily deathstars).  The solar system is customizable, the POSes aren't anymore (unless they're industry POSes, then we can feel free to mix and match harvesters, reactors, silos, and manufacturing arrays to our hearts content). 

Guns on gates is a bad idea.  Your haulers would become much less vulnerable (in some ways less than low sec).  How would the guns know what to shoot?  Standings lists?  Yeah, there is a potential clusterfuck.  Even if we fix the related issues do we really want to force more combat to system gates?  Further, small roaming gangs should not have a direct impact on sov, not ever.

Haulers are already invulnerable to ordinary attacks once they get into the JB networks.  You can kill them, but you're going to need battleships, and you're going to lose a few (and forget about taking out the freighters).

--Dave

[Captain Obvious says] The difference between a POS and a gate gun is that you can ignore the POS if you are just toodling around the system looking for PvP.  You can't avoid the gate no matter what you do.

Reducing 0.0 roaming gangs but increase lowsec "canned" warfare sounds like a move in the wrong direction to me.

No they aren't. Its not all that hard to kill a hauler at a jump bridge actually.

Its a lot easier and better to just make strategic POS structures easier to assault and disable. (possibly with a reinforced timer)

Only if the guy who set it up was an idiot and didn't put in the right gun mix.  Put a small pulse/AC/blaster turret on it, a couple of small arty/beams/rails, and a couple of warp scrams.  Make sure you keep them turned on and loaded.  Then your only vulnerability is to T2 snipers that can sit 251km from the tower.

--Dave

Would that lock stealth bombers fast enough to stop a couple firing then cloaking?

It should, yes.  Small arty locks frigates in around 10 seconds.  Of course, it would be on auto, so it would only lock one.

--Dave

Nope, not nearly, your stealth bombers will only stay up for one volley. They have no lock penalty from the cloak and will be fitting a sensor booster. They will have locked a second after they decloak and be damping their target so they cannot be locked back in time.

 Stealth bombers only die on POS when they get targeted by what they are attacking or they lag out. Whatever they are targeting will get damped, so that isn't much of a threat either.

A hauler will go down in 2-3 volleys depending on the ship. You can kill them at POS with tech 1 cruisers if you get lucky at the right time.

edit:

E.G. here is a run from Vio Geraci in BWF and then another in TDE4. There are few other guys that do this, but i haven't looked at their boards

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/206417
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/205991
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/206368
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/206191

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/207082

Martin gets a hauler alone at a bridge
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/208851
and another
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/208464
and another
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/208372

I still think it's a combination of bad POS fitting and people using cheap-ass T1 haulers with no tanks in 0.0.  You're not going to kill a T2 hauler with a couple of stealth bombers without scrambling it, not if it has any kind of tank.  You're safer than low-sec, but it's 0.0 for crying out loud.

--Dave

No, no bad POS fittings needed, nor did you need an untanked hauler. Though a good tank will make it harder.

You also do not necessarily need a scrambler, but it does help.

The answer is that you are simply not safe at jump bridges, safer, but not safe.

So, the new york times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/arts/television/28eve.html?ref=television) had a piece on this thing... It all sounds so reasonable, the way they paint it!

here's (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/arts/television/28beve.html?_r=1&ref=arts&oref=slogin) an article in arts that seems like 1/4th an article with 3/4s of it cut off and hidden somewhere. It ends really abruptly weird.

Molle is a lot less intimidating when you know what he really looks like.

I liked how disappointed the Eve dev seemed with the CSM (http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/4995-CSM-Interview-with-EVE-Lead-Designer-Noah-Ward).

"How dare they point out all the bugs and that the UI sucks instead of working on pie-in-the-sky ideas!"  :awesome_for_real:

I'm worried now that CCP seems to actually want the CSM to come up with something like the car that Homer built.  And that they'd actually listen to them.

(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6853/blueprintsio5.jpg)

Those "niggling UI issues" affect your entire player base, piss us off every time we undock, showcase your incompetence as a company, and drives newbies away.

Why would you think it wouldn't be brought up? Why don't you think they are serious issues?

What a douchebag.

Agreed.

CSM should just go "UI, UI, UI, UI" over and over and suggest nothing else until some issues are resolved.  Then point to this guy as the reason.  :oh_i_see:

Yeh he needs to take the hair out of his eyes, literally and metaphorically.

That won't work.  CCP got what they wanted, their spot in front of the cameras.  Now we have to wait through the "Soon" and "This stuff takes time to code and push through our QA procedures" and "We can't have mini-patches in between our regularly scheduled patches that are 6 months apart" periods.  It'll be a year before any changes from this CSM meeting see the Live server, and we'll have to convince the next two CSM terms to keep focus on things like the UI or whatnot to see anything get implemented.

The whole thing is a fucking joke. 

They (CCP devs) want to play, not work.  They want to spend time coding pie in the sky shit, not put effort into debugging minutiae and making their product actually work better.

I think it was that article that pointed out the key flaw in the whole CSM idea: neither CCP nor the CSM has set a plan for what it meant to achieve. Does CCP want the CSM to come to them with brilliant new ideas, or to represent the concerns of the community? No-one knows!  :uhrr:

Also, the 6-month terms, while they sound 'fair' to all the people not on the CSM, means that the members have just enough time to settle in and try to achieve something before they have to campaign to be elected again (should they want the full 12 month period they are allowed to be a CSM). It's going to see a lot of time lost to exactly what we've seen already - time spent laying down how things should work just to have a meeting, what ideas should be discussed, who is in charge of what, etc.

I'm beginning to think that CCP hadn't really thought through the whole CSM idea in any great detail.  :awesome_for_real:

CCP doesn't think through a lot of things.

The heads of CCP are UO griefers and a lot of their designers hired out of the player base. Sure as hell isn't going to generate a lot of stupid shit.

Mind you, the same applies to WoW.  :awesome_for_real:

Looks like Jade was right CCP are gonna be taking Destructible outposts seriously

Priority List

After internal discussion, the following priority list was established by the CSM. Note that a few issues were only informally discussed, and thus not included in the minutes above.

High Priority:

0004 Black Ops Improvements
X Jump Bridges and Cynojammers
0029 Eve-Mail Issues
0019 Contract Improvements
0018 0.0 Sovereignty Issues
0013 Skill Page Tweaks
0007 Double Click function on avatars

Medium-High Priority

0026 Suicide Ganking
0012 Minimum Size of HUD elements
0009 Alliances and Factional Warfare
0017 Empire War Decs
0030 PVP Wreck Ownership
0003 Problems with Aggression Timer
0001 Skill Queue

Medium Priority

0016 Switching all Ammo at the same time
0015 Pilot Avatar Listing
0002 Bombs need a Boost
0039 Roleplay Storylines
0028 Forum Issues and Fixing
0021 Assembly Array Issues
0022 Shares and Dividends Issues
0024 Experimental Industry Issues
0027 Drone Implants
0036 Small Freighter
X Corp -> Alliance sync

Low Priority

0006 Pillageable Outposts
X More Corp Standing Slots
0011 Electronic Warfare Icons
0033 Color Deficiency
0014 Personal Assets and HUD
0038 Buff Large Autocannons

Rejected/Unfeasable/Completed

0025 Game Time Codes
0020 Public POS Arrays
0023 Sell order availability
0008 Cargo Hold Size

Pillageable outposts is given the same priority as more corporation standings slots?  Lame.

Fuck you CCP, seriously, fuck you in the poopchute with a Brutix. GTC's are now going for 400m isk for 60 days, that's a 50% increase ffs. In my current Real Life situation I can't justify 3 EVE accounts and 2 WoW accounts all paid for with Real Money! This is gonna be a tougher decision than having to choose between training Minmatar or Gallente Cruiser 5!  :uhrr:

Also... "0007 Double Click function on avatars" - High Priority? WTF? Is that list of High Priority issues REALLY what the EVE playerbase is most concerned about? Or has the CSM spectacularly failed to do any of the assorted jobs it was set up to do?

Minus twelve million points all round I think.

Yeah I quit over timecodes. Oh well.

Yeh it's a sham I can't believe that double clicking on avatars is in the hi-priority list. I don't even know what that is, nor do I really care.

It might be just some low-hanging fruit thing. Something that they can bang out quickly which improves some little part of the game so they can say they're following up on the CSM items.

It's because Inanna Zuni saw it fit to break up the "UI Sucks!" issue into tiny little bits, and present those to CCP in small bits at a time, because she thought they wouldn't be able to handle overhauling the client or whatever.  As a result, CCP's patching parts of the UI here and there, rather than fixing the whole thing.  And, it's hard to keep saying "the UI is an important issue" in response to every little "wtf is the avatars thing?" question that will rise every time a tiny little problem is brough up.

She fucked the whole thing up.

Ah a female compartmentalising things who would have thought  :drillf:

And the same priority as color changes to actually make the stupid game a little more reasonable. I am so tired of red text.

I agree, standing slots is far more important than some other issues raised!

Anyone know the details for the next term, ie who is nominating and when the voting starts?

Here's another issue that I keep forgetting about: how about letting us see how our stats are effecting our drones?  Why does my damage multiplier never go above 1.92?  Why does the game never show what their modified optimal range is?

"Working" for Wikimedia and playing EVE all day long. I'm sure with all the expected fat slabs, you'll be unable to define whether that are real breasts or not, or whether there's a penis or clitoris in that camel toe.

WTF, cut that out.   You don't know what she does or how much work that is, and what she looks like doesn't matter in any way (and you're wrong, pictures of the CSMs have been published, go look).

I'm pissed off that the CSM didn't submit a broader "UI sucks" issue, and I'm pissed off that they aren't taking the initiative to do some work.  They would have had to read all the UI-related threads and compose an actual document, and they didn't put any effort into doing that.  They just copy-pasted text straight into their agenda. 

They're still doing that.  To CSM reps:  CCP can read the damn forums, you idiots.  Your job isn't to cut/paste, your job is to manage the damn issues, put them together, compile them, figure out the root causes.  If you get 15 "buff ship x" issues, but they're all about different ships, you're supposed to analyze that and submit a "CCP, take another look at overall ship balance and roles, because the y mechanic isn't working" issue.  Do some work putting shit together and analyzing why the complaints are there.

Eh, nobody's paying them, so I guess it's "do as little as possible and get a free ride to Iceland."  The whole CSM thing is stupid.

Well I wouldn't quite have taken it that far, I mean I admit I'm being slightly sexist but that's just a bit OTT.


Links? for my voyeuristic penchant please.

(http://www.alisonwheeler.net/rsrc/pics/alisonwheeler_100x160.jpg)

So that's what Captain Phil Harris does in his off time?

(http://media.canada.com/c6faf935-c07d-40db-88e6-42f806cb47be/3crab.jpg)

Look, last time we did this we had Jade Constantwhine come in and stalk us for 48 hours, and frankly I'm not ready for someone who was actually born a woman to do the same.

Must ... resist.. catty ... comment ... gah!

Oh come on, she's not that bad looking!  Gotta love a redhead.

C'mon admit it, it was fun though.

Indeed it was.

Fixed that for you.

Whoops, wrong thread.  :uhrr:

Hey, remember when I said that Jade Constantwhine only stood for a CSM post so he could try to crowbar through his retarded ideas to remake 0.0 so his alliance would no longer be utterly worthless, while simultaneously wrecking everyone else?

Sup. (http://lhttp://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=823580)

vvvv No I didn't  :grin:

Forgot a letter.  :oh_i_see:

I feel obligated to point out that he got the most votes, too.

Apparently you have not seen the csm item on sov revamp

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=823580

It is so fucking horrible. 

static npc objectives.  Undefendable objectives.

Times to Capture a Neutral Stargate/Contest a Captured Stargate
10 Battleships: 30 minutes
10 Cruisers/Battlecruisers: 40 minutes
10 Frigates/Destroyers: 60 minutes


This enables small group griefing of larger groups forcing needless wastes of time 'fixing' things and large groups can dance all over smaller ones easier than they can now.

Yes CSM is still going and Constantine is still pushing an agenda born of those with no understanding of territory upkeep.

Jade Constantin, the worst problem to the game CCP ever created.

Jade's proposal was rejected in today's CSM meeting, apparently.  :woot:
Edit: Fun thread in EVE-O General (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=837481). No, really.

Good.  The presented package was terrible.  Not that this will stop Constantine from forwarding a paper on the idea anyhow.  Oh and all the forum angst and screaming about it has made for an entertaining skim.

3rd reply:

Rells might be really annoying, both on the forums and on Vent (if you've ever flown any of the Agony courses), but I always find myself agreeing with pretty much everything he says.

And yeah, that thread is funny... but he's right... the CSM is a total failure really.

Drama starts again!!!

Chatlog here: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0808/How_to_Not_Act_as_Chairman_of_CSM.txt (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0808/How_to_Not_Act_as_Chairman_of_CSM.txt)

Threads about it
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=839662 (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=839662)
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=839674 (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=839674)

The first one has more potential.

The Star Fraction/Stimulus brain trust in action!  But remember, they're not affiliated with each other at all!

Why does that read like the aristocrats of eve gathering to discuss society's woes?

WTF is with their brain dead forum software? Trying to follow either of these links results in the following bit of foolishness.

Thread Locked
 
You are trying to post to a locked thread
CONCORD has been notified
 
Continue


Is this some tricky way of locking threads so they can't be read at all? Why dont they just  fucking delete them then?

I think they *have* deleted them. That's their retarded "thread deleted" message. Yeah, EVE-O forum software is pretty bad.

For those of us who missed the threads before they were locked, and who cannot access Eve-Files at work (well, i can, but I like to use that power sparingly): http://eve-search.com/thread/839662/page/1

Edit: those who can read the eve-files link please post tl;dr version tia kthxbye.

Summary of the log! :awesome_for_real:

Viper jumps into a stim channel in eve. 

Jade and Viper go round.

Jade Constantine > vyper being a verone suck up fanboi
Jade Constantine > that bloody moron "ruleofbone" pisses me off too
Jade Constantine > basically sucked Hardin's cock in the elections


Nothing can get done about 0.0
Jade Constantine > because goons+inanna+hardin and most of the time serenity will oppose anything that reduces 0.0 powerbloc power

Rambling topics begin
Jade Constantine > if I griefed corelli out of empire rp
Jade Constantine > let me add another victory pin to our public channel
Viper ShizzIe > It's not griefing if you don't understand how massive of an idiot you are
Nadine Desaix > Yes. That's something to be proud of for sure. Destroying another piece of the RP community.
Jade Constantine > and you Nadine can piss off too - if you can't handle a war then cry me a river
Jade Constantine > eve isn't a sanctuary for worthless sandboxers

more talk, Jonny kicks Nadine from channel
Jonny boots Righteous Fury from channel


More back and forth stuff about not being able to take criticism and the like.
Then a strange twist.

Vlad Cetes > well viper u still have one key advantage
Vlad Cetes > you didnt go so damn emo u lost ur GF OVER A FUCKING GAME

Jonny kicks Vlad

They end up on the topic of Kyoko, who Jade insults.

Talk about the mito war, more insults.
Tri bashing starts
Talk about Stim being dumb or awesome
Jade Constantine > they are pretty cool these days Smile
Talk about free caps

It wraps up with a nice round of 'wardec or STFU' from SF/STIM

Wel,l thank you for that. I suddenly like Viper :grin:

I still can't make sense of all of it, but does that quote imply that space whore lost his girlfriend over a game?

I am not entirely certain on it either.  My only guess is some sort of drama involving Revan and Jade.  Whatever.

Yes. He did as far as anyone can tell. Revan and Jade had a falling out sometime during the election cycle. I got a few eve-mails from a person in SF/Blood Whatever(Revans Corp) regarding the issue and some other things(a claim that Revan was buying Jade votes, but no hard info), and it came out publicly not too long after that(and not by my hand).

Short answer. There was a bunch of internal drama between the two and they broke up over a video game.

Edit:

Also, i am kinda sad that no one linked the two other threads with the exact same idea that everyone shat on, when that guy re-posted the idea... twice.

edit 2:

It happened right around the time Revan biomassed Revan and went to go play her BoB alt/main supposedly.(that was another thing that was alleged, though not confirmed)

Well, the CSM may not be useful for anything else, but it's certainly provided a lot of highly entertaining drama  :popcorn:

I quite disagree. I expect sometime in the future Eve will be the touchstone for why player government can't work.

It was pointed out in the suicide ganking nerf thread that the CSM actually IS having some kind of impacts.  Thanks, ankhewhatever!

I'm starting to lean to the camp that says CCP already had these changes planned and is seizing on the CSM support for the issues to deflect a lot of the hostility it's gonna generate.

Team doughnut or whatever was underway before the CSMs to Iceland, so yes.

His girlfriend played EVE, too? And they've broken up over in-game politics? Did I get this right?











What the fuck?! :drill:

Don't you know that intarnet is serious business?

Yeah.




But...




That's really fucking stupid! Then again, I wonder who'd put up with that cock juggler to begin with.

And Revan, of all people?  That's a pretty infamous name in certain RP circles too.

Infamous how?  Gossip about Eve is always so much more interesting than the game itself!  :drillf:

See I was expecting the old "spends more time with the game than her" story but that's just, um, wow.

Revan Neferis (http://bloodveil.translatio.be/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=19#p19)

These pictures must be pre-EVE, 200 pounds ago. If they're not, it'll be time to get playing again.

Third relationship  (that I know of) for Revan with players of EVE.  She had a reputation for spending lots of money to get things done in game.  If you really want the details wade through chatsubo.  Some of it is there and you will know who to ask for more details.  Of course they may not want to talk about it ;)

Those pictures must be from the 70s. When people had fucking square wine glasses.

Yellow square wineglasses...(they could also be cylindrical, but Jesus that is terrible)

So what your basically trying to say is Jade's ex is a 200 pound woman in her 60s ?

Bump

Who's everyone voting for?

Sophie Dagneau (niarT epaR) and Darius.  :patriot:

NOTA can't see anyone that's drama enough to have some fun.

That link is closed right now.

Since we got onto the topic of Revan, here is some stuff from Lowa, now a goon (who was with us in ZS- last night) that touches on Revan and on Aegis Militia:


Lowa was the FC in the fleet fight in KBP in December last year when we whipped the arses of the various Minmatar invaders who were taking advantage of the attack from Triumvirate to try and take that northern constellation.  That was probably the best FCing I have seen.

Yeah, he's good.

I like that Aegis Militia gets the longest entry.

I abstained twice :colbert:

I guess this is done.  Darius got on it again I gather.  :patriot:

I can't read the actual results from work. TLDR version anyone?

TL:DR

8.6% voter turnout

A turnout which signals a victory for democracy.

Couple of raging "zomg ban pirates" carebears got in.  I'm excluding Anhkthingy from that descriptor, she's pretty moderate in her 'bearings.

I voted for Promithius as I know him. Hes a good guy and his hearts in the right place and I respect him a great deal.

Pity he didn't get the votes he needed

If they do not can the project after this session you can all vote for me!

GS is kinda like the Republicans. Low voter turn out is good for us[Not me, but GS].

Of course, this only works if GS and allies get off their ass and vote[for the right people].

So Avalloc was the new Ross Perot?