Council of Stellar Management Voting Active

[Phildo]

There was battle between the Goons and Smash&friends a week ago that resulted in many, many dead capitals.  For reference.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jade Constantine]

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[Hoax]

Replies #196 & #202 are the only things worth reading in the last 3 pages.

-Is the problem with 0.0 that space holding makes too much isk with not enough risk of isk loss?  If so what are solutions?

I can tell you right now, making Outposts destructable hardly seems like the big deal everyone is making it out to be.  Not from where I'm sitting at least.  But I've never built an outpost and unlike some people in this thread I'm willing to believe I have no idea as a result.

Here are the good things about the Outpost idea:
1)  Its unrealistic and stupid in eve to have them be invulnerable, nothing else is.
2)  It is a sink on both the attackers and defenders.

Now I need someone to articulate better, to me, not to fucking jade ffs why making Outposts destructable would inflict so much hurt on non-superpower alliances?  I can see what might be some reasons but someone who is so drastically opposed to this idea even being considered please illuminate me.

P.S.  Jade, please stop making this about you, because this is making me think your going to fail hard at being CSM.  A crucial aspect of the position will be to present the issue and step the fuck back.  So far (and not that I'm too surprised having read your posts over the years) you are doing a shittastic job of making this into something more important then Jade versus People who just dont know as much as Jade.  Thats a shitty way to frame something.  Makes you look like a real asshole.

P.P.S.  Stop posting so much, this is a discussion forum, I dont want to read 15 of your posts every page before I get to reply.  Neither does anyone else.

[Endie]

Hoax, it's the Vanguard argument: "make death more meaningful!"  The trouble is that the two proposals here encourage blobbing and napfests: making outposts destructable and making taking space easier.

It is true that there is hyper-inflation in supercaps, outposts and more.  The rixh are getting vastly and inexorably richer.  The poor (us) stay poor.  The ideas suggested here are attempted demand-side solutions, intended to work by increasing demand for replacement goods, while at the same time making those goods less desirable due to increased frangibility.  Of course, that will lead to risk-management by the vulnerable parties, reduced demand for the good in question, and more risk-averse behaviour. 

Money will continue to accrue to the super-rich and only they will be able easily to replace lost goods.  Thus Goons, Bob, RA and a couple of others can keep churning out outposts and supercaps, while the vast majority of Eve will recoil from investing their time into things that will be easily destroyed.  Massive, old alliances will have outposts which are hard to destroy and easy to replace.  Young alliances will have outposts which can be gone in days if they so much as sneeze on Darius or Molle.  The divide will be reinforced.

A supply side solution makes more sense if you want to even the playing field and give young alliances made up of new players a chance to compete.  Alter T2 production and moon mining to reduce its profitability greatly at the upper end.  Finally remove T2 BPOs as has been long discussed.  Reduce the difference in money-making ability between a member of an old, established alliance and a new, young one to a matter of purely how much they want the item they desire: make ratting, mining or mission-running the primary means of accruing wealth.  The massive empires will shrink, the ability to throw nano-ed vagabonds at every problem will disappear, and the days of fielding numerous supercapitals will be in the past.

Edit: grammar

[lac]

Now I need someone to articulate better, to me, not to fucking jade ffs why making Outposts destructable would inflict so much hurt on non-superpower alliances?  I can see what might be some reasons but someone who is so drastically opposed to this idea even being considered please illuminate me.

I'm not drastically opposed to the idea but I do have some concerns.

First making everything that is player build in 0.0 destructible is a sound concept. Leaving destroyed outposts as derelict stations in space with hangars accessible for retrieval only and a lower-cost rebuild option looks particularly interesting although they seem to be a bit mutual exclusive. If a conquering entity rebuilds the station the window for retrieval will close so there would have to be a sufficiently large timeframe for it to occur.

It would however lead to less outposts which might lead to a lesser populated 0.0. I like outposts, I like a densely populated 0.0 and I welcome all initiative to further develop 0.0 space because I think if there is more infrastructure in place more people will hang out there.

It would also give an unfair advantage to those alliances who currently have npc stations in their space.

As I pointed out earlier, I believe it should be balanced so that major powers can't just show up on your doorstep, camp your system for a couple of days, blow up your outpost and move on. Having it tied in with losing constellation sovereignty before a station can be destroyed might make it less of a casual gank thing to do.

Having high cost destructible assets in space would also lead to a more defensive attitude in alliances, which would lead to bigger naps, which leads to bigger blobs.
Sure, these things happen already but a change like this would only strengthen the tendency to do so.

[Tebonas]

I really love the signal-to-noise ratio on these forums.

So can we pretend that this thread happened on another forum? I think I have a headache from actually reading walls of text that don't actually say anything. At least usually when it isn't insightful it is funny. This thread is like a mass suicide of words.

[Simond]

Finally remove T2 BPOs as has been long discussed.

This needs to happen right now. Invention works, so why keep rewarding people who've made their fortunes by merely getting a lucky roll of the internet spaceships dice a couple of years ago?

[Amarr HM]

P.S.  Jade, please stop making this about you, because this is making me think your going to fail hard at being CSM.  A crucial aspect of the position will be to present the issue and step the fuck back.  So far (and not that I'm too surprised having read your posts over the years) you are doing a shittastic job of making this into something more important then Jade versus People who just dont know as much as Jade.  Thats a shitty way to frame something.  Makes you look like a real asshole.

P.P.S.  Stop posting so much, this is a discussion forum, I dont want to read 15 of your posts every page before I get to reply.  Neither does anyone else.

I concur I think some people are a bit dissapointed in your behaviour here you come in telling us what we should believe instead of actually trying to take part on our forums amd then you turn it into a mass offensive. Oh and then Stimulus turn up to fan the flames all I'm hearing now is the psychobabble smack talk of Stimulus translated into a more intelligible and palatable format. Less Jade more Odo I say be a man of the people it's your duty. If you fail at that just be a man.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Amarr HM]

Ok then ... do you really believe CCP will look into destructable outposts & how much of this is your personal project?

Will this be your main objective as head of CSM to try and put forward this idea? and do you feel you have the backing of the majority of the EVE players on this subject, not just your own group of peers?

What do you think is the most important issue that is being looked at seriously right now and what are your proposed changes to this? provide links.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jayce]

You really can't expect external commentators to come and put up with a barrage of abuse and not get in a few jabs of their own - thats not how human interaction works and it certainly isn't how the Internet works.

Nobody really asked you to come in and externally commentate things.  You aren't special in that regard.  You're not some invited guest who was assaulted and now gets to play the outraged keynote speaker.

You (apparently) arrived here in response to what you said is a mistaken characterization of your personality, or something.  That seems to have framed the whole discussion, since you now clearly consider yourself to have license to attack people back.  I guess this discussion is too poisoned on both sides to have a chance of being constructive.

You might take this as a flame, but I'm really just trying to explain why no one seems to like you here.


edited to add quote for context

[Jade Constantine]

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[apocrypha]

I use a nifty Firefox plugin on the offical EVE forums called CAOD-Cleaner that allows me to block individual posters, whole corps and even entire alliances.

Now that Jade's decided to pollute these forums with his streams of unreadable consciousness would it be possible to enable an "ignore user" option here too? Or is that something these forums aren't set up to do?

[Calantus]

You're asking for respect in the same post as calling people out. That doesn't work. Besides, you're the one who cares. We were quite happy to just snipe in your general direction from across the internet before you dropped a wall of text on our heads and began the aggressive defence of your character. We would already have stopped talking about you yesterday and forgotten the whole thing if you hadn't come and given the issue more fuel.

For me this thread is like a mini-politics forum hidden away from Morat, Abagadro, and Margalis (names which mean nothing to you naturally) so the juicy low-lying fruit is still available for picking. I have no incentive to give you the benefit of the doubt.

EDIT: And as a bonus I got to show Endie which one of us wears the pants.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Phildo]

Yes, there is an ignore user feature although I don't remember quite where it is.

Morat reads these forums too, although I think he's been on vacation or something for a while.

Jade: your entire first post was a screen and a half long about Martin Van Buren and had nothing to do with any CSM issues other than this guy being an assclown.  Which you may be right about.  But all you did was call someone ELSE'S character in to question, one who isn't even a member of these forums.  Yet no one's gone running to tell him that you were slandering him here.  That's not the way the game is played.  Does George Bush show up at every Democratic Party gathering and yell "LIES!  YOU'RE TELLING LIES!"?  No, probably not.

(this is not an attempt to bring real-life politics into the discussion and please don't treat it as such, it was just the first example that popped into my head.  You may as well replace George Bush with Mickey Mouse and Democratic Party with Warner Brothers)

[Hoax]

Hoax, it's the Vanguard argument: "make death more meaningful!"  The trouble is that the two proposals here encourage blobbing and napfests: making outposts destructable and making taking space easier.

Ok I get the VG/SB comparisons, I have been around the block a few times.  But how many people are really losing an Outpost and shrugging it off because they know they will get it back someday?  Really?  Is that happening at all?   Unfortunately I didn't notice all the details because I was focused on avoiding all the terrible posting going on.  So I'm just dealing with making Outposts destructable on its own.  I don't buy the argument that this will make a major alliance failure cascade so much more painful.

It is true that there is hyper-inflation in supercaps, outposts and more.  The rixh are getting vastly and inexorably richer.  The poor (us) stay poor.  The ideas suggested here are attempted demand-side solutions, intended to work by increasing demand for replacement goods, while at the same time making those goods less desirable due to increased frangibility.  Of course, that will lead to risk-management by the vulnerable parties, reduced demand for the good in question, and more risk-averse behaviour.

All true and sensible, something that a proponent of the system would have to address and I'm sure has been addressed in some 640 page thread on eve-o that you couldn't pay me to touch.   

Money will continue to accrue to the super-rich and only they will be able easily to replace lost goods.  Thus Goons, Bob, RA and a couple of others can keep churning out outposts and supercaps, while the vast majority of Eve will recoil from investing their time into things that will be easily destroyed.  Massive, old alliances will have outposts which are hard to destroy and easy to replace.  Young alliances will have outposts which can be gone in days if they so much as sneeze on Darius or Molle.  The divide will be reinforced.

Ok I've been operating under the, Sov would have to be broken before you could destroy it idea.  Anything else is quite retarded. Making it possible to Ninja Gank something that took that much time and effort to build would clearly be a bullshit attempt by certain parties to favor their playstyle.  Afterall, how many empire dwelling groups actually have the capfleet to invade 0.0?  Obvious bias is obvious if we're talking about destructable outposts ala destructable towers.

A supply side solution makes more sense if you want to even the playing field and give young alliances made up of new players a chance to compete.  Alter T2 production and moon mining to reduce its profitability greatly at the upper end.  Finally remove T2 BPOs as has been long discussed.  Reduce the difference in money-making ability between a member of an old, established alliance and a new, young one to a matter of purely how much they want the item they desire: make ratting, mining or mission-running the primary means of accruing wealth.  The massive empires will shrink, the ability to throw nano-ed vagabonds at every problem will disappear, and the days of fielding numerous supercapitals will be in the past.

I think that passive income is better, because grinding isk sucks.  However I think that the passive income opportunity should be looked at because clearly the rich are getting too rich too fast with nothing to spend it on but more supercaps that nobody likes fighting against anyways.

It would however lead to less outposts which might lead to a lesser populated 0.0. I like outposts, I like a densely populated 0.0 and I welcome all initiative to further develop 0.0 space because I think if there is more infrastructure in place more people will hang out there.

Personally I never touch the Outposts in Provi, so I just dont quite see that fear as founded for the people who aren't doing Big Things in 0.0.  While I think that people in 0.0 is better, I'm not sure lack of infrastructure is really the issue.  Instead its the huge rent fees, kowtowing to big alliances, space-politics and mostly fear of losing your stuff.

Having high cost destructible assets in space would also lead to a more defensive attitude in alliances, which would lead to bigger naps, which leads to bigger blobs.
Sure, these things happen already but a change like this would only strengthen the tendency to do so.

For me, this is the big fear, but its a hard thing to be sure about one way or the other.  If you packaged this change with changes that would reward aggression and make fighting wars more fun, which should be a huge fucking priority anyways CCP/CSM (shooting unmoving structures from big slow unmoving ships = not fun) way above this Outpost thing on the list of Shit To Do.

[Jayce]

Deal with respect and you'll get respect back. Act like an asshole and get treated like an asshole.

This is sort of fun for some reason, so I'll bite.

You just reiterated my point.  You arrived here with a lack of respect, acting like an asshole.  Now you're being treated like an asshole.  Very succinct way of putting it!


By the way, what is a numpty?

[Jade Constantine]

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[Amarr HM]

Thanks for answering my questions, although I feel you are slightly pushing your own personal manifesto I think you have been mostly respectful in the face of a pretty hefty tirade, kudos for that. I think most reasonable people here see that is the case but when you put yourself in a position of power or fame you open yourself up to ridicule and debate. It's best to just ride with it. I think people should at least try and keep this thread inline with the CSM discussion.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Phildo]

Are there really that many people out there that just want to ruin other another Alliance's day by breaking their sovereignty, destroying their station then going home to empire?

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jade Constantine]

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[schild]

You're to CCP as HRose is to DAOC you uppity sack of shit. You think CCP gives a fuck what you think? I have more pull with them you uppity self-righteous assclown no-life motherfucker. Get the fuck out of here.

Edit: I forgot a comma or two in this post. But I don't care, because you're a self-entitled assbag who is too obsessed to be taken seriously. Also, people think you're a walking joke. So, let me reiterate: Get the fuck out of here.

[apocrypha]

By the way, what is a numpty?

Numpty is an English slang word meaning buffoon, idiot, clown... 'tard in late 00's internet-speak. However it's a gentle word, a jokey kind of word, not really offensive in the same way as 'tard is for instance.

It's a very middle-class kind of word now that I think about it, the kind of thing an affectionate parent might say in a humourous fashion to a child.

[ajax34i]

What we need are wars with significant expense and brutal loss of assets for the big-time losers.

Why, and how?

Why do we need these wars?  The only reason you seem to give is "for the good of the game" because things are stale etc etc.  Meanwhile, every player in EVE will think in terms of his losses/gains, and oppose this because they don't want to lose more stuff, and the gain of conquering someone else's territory is, at best, meh (the vast majority of 0.0 space has crap moons and crap NPCs).

And how would CCP go about getting players to fight more?  They cannot make us fight if we don't want to, and we certainly won't want to if the only thing that changes is "brutal loss of assets for the loser."

[Jade Constantine]

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[Gets]

[schild]

I was trying to be civil:

My real name is Andrew Cruse; I’m 39 years old, a self-employed communications and business writing professional from the south of England. I’ve had a varied education mingling sensible qualifications with the esoteric (I’ve got a Master’s Degree in Arthurian Literature) and in the course of earlier adventures in the realm of venture capital startups I’ve appeared on television in the guise of an expert on Internet censorship and consulted for the Gartner Group at international conferences.

Though Eve was the first massively multiplayer online game I ever played, I do have a long history with social gaming and game communities, having been involved with societies in Oxford and Bangor and spending most of my adult life playing games in all shapes and sizes within my extended group of friends.

It’s a little strange to step beyond the veil of character anonymity to the general community in this way, but hey, ultimately I imagine none of us have anything to hide and we’re all decent normal people behind the avatars and online names.

Since you're obviously new at this but consider yourself experienced because you're a dirty dirty neckbeard roleplayer, I was giving you the option of leaving with some dignity intact. No one takes you seriously. You're a walking joke. You're considered a stalker by people beyond f13 and a creepy asshole who's sitting on the edge of the abyss in the game you love so much that you need to attack with WALL OF TEXT every time you have an opinion.

You have a problem. You might want to get it checked out.

Edit: Just because I called you an assbag doesn't mean I'm not civil. Should I have posted 9,000 words about why you're an assbag or maybe thrown in some clever English humor to seem "huuuuuuuuuuuularious?" Stick a knife in your dick.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jade Constantine]

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[schild]

WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT

You're not in any real guild or alliance? You formed an alliance of roleplayers?

http://www.jericho-fraction.net/smf/index.php

That's your thing, rite?

Seriously? No wonder you want to be on this interstellar inneffective goverment republic spaceship lazerbeams bullshit.

It's like people will HAVE TO listen to your silly gibba-gabber about how SPACE SHOULD BE RUN.

Fucking fruitloops.

Edit: I'm not trying to burn you. I just think you're psychotic and don't know it. There's no burn there. Only the genuine feeling that you need professional help.

Goddamn, you're weird. Do you like Doug Winger?