Council of Stellar Management Voting Active

[Endie]

Here’s the problem Endie. You are beginning your post with a lie. Yep it’s an actual falsehood that you are misrepresenting as truth. Stimulus is not a part of Star Fraction.

Here is where Jade's CAOD habits come in again.

As i said, through one tortuous construction you can make his argument true.  However, Stimulus left SF, fought some empire wars, and rejoined.  Probably repeatedly, though I have no great interest in their comings and goings.

The fact is that the latest SF/Stim infiltration of Aegis Militia happened last year, and Stimulus was last in The Star Fraction as recently as ten weeks ago.

As to the rest of your bullshit, well done on the straw man.  I explicitly  say that you didn't want to hold KBP (because you knew you couldn't).  You accuse me of mischeviousness for saying that you did want to hold it.  perhaps you should rebut my accusations that you are behind an international online transvestite conspiracy to sieze control of the banking sector?  Or offer strong evidence that I am wrong to suggest that you sacrifice Christian babies to run your car?

But you tried and failed at POS warfare, more often than once.  For those who think that Jade is being truthful and open, and is aloof from POS warfare and wouldn't deign to attempt it, his most hilarious moment recently - the stealth Bombers vs Dreads - (and I mean hilarious in a good way, since I thought it was audacious and funny) was resorted to after realising that they couldn't defend the POSes they had erected to try and take sov from -7-.

Anyway, as many have pointed out, Jade is entertaining enough at a distance (he looks like Odo, loves to cyber with other guys and is, exhibit A being here, laughably easy to sidetrack with trolls due to his rampant narcissism), but we're talking Woodcock's argumentative tendencies crossed with Telemediocrity's charm and GeldonYetich's insight into design, here, and I imagine that the result will be much the same..

I assure you I have every intention of being the very best representative I can be for those players that voted for my manifesto and want the kind of Eve I talked about there.

There we have it.  300,000 players in the game and Jade intends to be the best representative possible for the 2,500 who agree with him.

edit:  Dammit Calantus you may have won that battle but I have the new page!  Nobody will ever see your witty rejoinder!

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jade Constantine]

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[Calantus]

Voters only matter more than non-voters if your main purpose is (re-)election.

Did we already say that your plan only hurts the losing side? I thought we did. Did you address it? I must confess I didn't read a dozen or so of your posts so I might have missed it.

[Jade Constantine]

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[lac]

who right now will just get their stations taken and locked out of all equipment there by tower spam/conquest) what destructible outposts will do is increase the cost of warfare and rebuilding for large 0.0 powers involved in multi-regional fights and "great wars".

If the invading alliance is conquering space with the intent to keep it, you are right, but that's not my point. I'm talking about 'quick' strikes where the invading alliance pops up somewhere on the map and does whatever is necessary to destroy the station without intent to ever occupy that space later. If they only need system sov to initiate the self-destruct it would make an excellent way to gank a station belonging to a smaller alliance and gtfo.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Endie]

As i said, through one tortuous construction you can make his argument true.  However, Stimulus left SF, fought some empire wars, and rejoined.  Probably repeatedly, though I have no great interest in their comings and goings.

Is it really a "tortuous construction" to say STIMULUS IS NOT IN STAR FRACTION?  - Couldn't you check on the live server?

The fact is that the latest SF/Stim infiltration of Aegis Militia happened last year, and Stimulus was last in The Star Fraction as recently as ten weeks ago.

Mmmhmm, they re-joined briefly for the Alliance tournament and left immediately afterwards. Star Fraction has absolutely no interest in their corp theft/sabotage agenda against Aegis Militia, as I said, you presented falsehoods as "facts" and you've been called out on those.

As to the rest of your bullshit, well done on the straw man.  I explicitly  say that you didn't want to hold KBP (because you knew you couldn't).  You accuse me of mischeviousness for saying that you did want to hold it.  perhaps you should rebut my accusations that you are behind an international online transvestite conspiracy to sieze control of the banking sector?  Or offer strong evidence that I am wrong to suggest that you sacrifice Christian babies to run your car?

Maybe you should calm down a bit and stop frothing.

Anyway, as many have pointed out, Jade is entertaining enough at a distance (he looks like Odo, loves to cyber with other guys and is, exhibit A being here, laughably easy to sidetrack with trolls due to his rampant narcissism), but we're talking Woodcock's argumentative tendencies crossed with Telemediocrity's charm and GeldonYetich's insight into design, here, and I imagine that the result will be much the same.. 

Well Endie, I'd hate to think that a spotty internet geek behind the protection of internet anonymity was making mileage about other people's appearance without putting himself up for the record.  Oh wait, thats exactly what you're doing - my bad 

There we have it.  300,000 players in the game and Jade intends to be the best representative possible for the 2,500 who agree with him.

Well Endie, here's the hard word, the 26000 odd players who cared enough to vote are worth more than the 200,000 odd who didn't. Thats democracy.
 

Didn't I say Jade would Woodcock?  As foretold in prophecy.

To wearily repeat: saying you split with Stimulus last year because you thought they were nasty meta-gamers is rather weakened when they have, since then, been welcomed back into your arms.  I always said your stance could, just, be construed as true to the letter.  But it is deliberately misleading.

Accusing somebody of "frothing" when they say things you disagree with is a very poor troll.  I think you'll find that calling a spade a spade, a kneading-trough a kneading-trough and bullshit bullshit here is not going to have people tutting.

I have no spots - time on the mountains yields dangerous amounts of UV so spots ain't the problem - but neither am I an oil-painting.  Considering that a picture of me was my avatar here for most of last year, however, accusing me of not putting myself up for ridicule is a shot that misses its mark.

And It's just not true that voting in the council elections makes ones account subscription worth more, and therefore one's opinion.  Fortunately, CCP rely on the full playerbase for their subs, and will ignore partial and selfish advice, whether from you, Hardin, the goons or anyone else.

Anyway, you really need to stop with the narcissism and try doing your job, which is listening to the opinions of the playerbase.  Let's try.

You are absolutely right about the difficulty for new corps and alliances to become engaged in 0.0 without joining or submitting to the large alliances.  I also agree that that is one of the biggest problems, maybe even the biggest problem facing eve right now.  I blogged about that recently, myself, and our corp here has faced something of the same problems.  But making it easier to destroy player investments in the form of outposts is, far from being a solution to that, actually a recipe for greater imbalance.  Bob, the Goons, MM, Rzr and more than a few others can easily despatch several mid-sized fleets (assuming that anti-blobbing mechanics are in place) of the sort that Joe Newbie and his hundred alliance-mates

If you're saying that you also want substantially more low-quality 0.0 space, hard to reach with caps from existing space, made available, and that the costs of outposts must be divided by twenty or so given that they'll be like big, stationary, vulnerable supercaps at best, then fine: I disagree with the destructibility but it is a rational position.  But NewbAllianz aren't going to spend 18 months mining and ratting themselves into oblivion to blow 30 billion on something that will be gone the first time one of them talks rude to Molle.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Endie]

Ah, my attempts at serious discussion are ignored.  Serves me right for not voting for him, I suppose 

[Jade Constantine]

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[Endie]

Would it help if I pretended to be a space hooker?

[lac]

the only difference to what happens currently is that the losing players will be able to get their stuff out afterwards

Another small difference to current mechanics is that they, obviously, will never be able to reconquer their station, an option I would prefer to a docking window in which you try to get all your stuff out while being station camped. Tastes differ, I suppose.
I'm sure a change like this would make alliances that live in NPC stations happy in their pants, I guess you try to cater to your audience.

[Jayce]

An adult discussion about pretend spaceships?

[Jade Constantine]

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[Endie]

If you want a serious discussion you will need to leave "endie-style" childish sniping at the door.

Like I foretold in the thread in the private forum, he will do this until eeettteeerrrnnniiitttttyyyyyyy.  You cannot disagree with him.  It will be "lies" or "superior-than-thou [sic]" or some other dismissal.  Just join him like I have in the joy of the ad hominem.  It'll end there anyway.

[Megrim]

Would it help if I pretended to be a space hooker?

Oooooooh, that's it. I'm officially addressing you as a our Battlefield Psychosexual Therapist from now on.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Endie]

Jade, this isn't debate.  You can't "debate" by breezing in and alienating all and sundry because they won't bow down and worship your ego.

And you're missing my point in the last post.  I said i had joined you in the joy of the ad hominem.  You have converted me.  I stand by your side, ready to tell everyone how stupid they are to disagree with us or, when they are patently correct, to attack their motivation.  I have rolled up an alt, "Sister Sultry" and am already touting myself out in Jita for ISK in return for "delicious enticements and spine-shivering wickedness in my space-brothel".

Edit: correcting conjugation of the verb "to attack"

[Reg]

Did you two used to be pretend RP-style space-married? 

[lac]

I think this is still the courting phase. Those space-french RP courtship rituals are damn complicated.

And cut the nonsense superior-than-thou claptrap about NPC station living pilots please. If you want a serious discussion you will need to leave "endie-style" childish sniping at the door.

There I am, warming up to the idea as I become better informed and then you have to go and throw a forum tantrum, tsk, tsk.

[Jade Constantine]

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[ajax34i]

This is not a debate.  Jade, you're just re-stating your agenda (in too many damn words - we've seen it already on the EVE-O forums) and we're not buying it.  And, in lieu of either side budging even an inch, both are exchanging smack-talk and going off on tangents.  That's what "CAOD-style" is.

You didn't come here to debate, you came here to give more exposure to your views, and because you like flames and smacktalk.  May I suggest the Something Awful forums too, they will offer more of the same:  more publicity, more flames, more chances for you to valiantly defend your beliefs.

Too bad CSM's can't hold more than two terms.  This forum-warrior meta-game that CCP has introduced seems to be fun for you; Jade Constantine has been completely absent from the  EVE-O forums / game for the past year, but as soon as they announced the CSM thing, boom, there you were, suddenly running as an expert in the game, for the good of everyone, and with a huge agenda.  I remember thinking "WTF did you come from?" but, good for you.  Have a fun two years (one year running, one year basking in the glow of having been a CSM leader).

I'm gonna go play the game.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Endie]

That was a disappointingly tedious restatement of previous insults.  I think he's getting distracted by my sultry space charms.

And Jade, I begin to suspect that Hakel (or skim-reading) has failed to fill you in on the part of my eve career that isn't filled with goonie goon goonery.  It's probably not an exaggeration to say that as many as half the eve-playing registered people reading this first pvped in my gangs, first came to 0.0 space in a deal I set up, first tried out empire warfare, even in many cases first tried eve after my recruitment post, first wondered what the fuck the Scot with the awful mic was calling as primary, and much more.

Simply pointing at me and saying "lol endie is a dick", whatever the unarguable accuracy of the statement may be, is not going to swing the argument relentlessly in your favour when they probably know that I have spent most of my day off today* moving stuff in haulers and sitting in a lowsec station waiting for a 500mill skill to finish training so I can jump shit to and from their POSes.

*lol internet space nerd

[Megrim]

Jade,



first of all, learn how to be succinct. The vast majority of people on f13 have played MUDS at some point. We've moved beyond walls of text.

Second, no-one is going to bother having a serious debate with you, because you've as yet to say anything of worth.

Third, stop calling it a serious debate. It is a telltale sign of a buffoon with an overinflated sense of worth, a person who calls these conversations "debates". Let alone serious ones.

Forth, an ad-hominem is a fallicy by default and as such can never be valid (by virtue of being a fallicy).

Fifth, respect is earned and not given. No-one here is going to have a respectful discussion with you, because no-one here respects you. You have not earned anyone's respect.

Sixth, stop being such a dud kid.



loev,
f13

[Phildo]

So I disagree with the destructible outpost idea.  Where you really lost me, though, was the part where you said voters mattered more, and most of what's happened since then has been bickering.  If you really do want to debate, and I'm admittedly curious, what else has come up for discussion among CSM?

[Simond]

And you and yours are still worse at holding 0.0 space than a bunch of ADHD 'sperger nerds playing internet spaceships with newbie characters. Yeah, right, you don't want to hold space - that's very convenient bearing in ind that every time your lot tried to pick a fight with anyone not utterly useless you lost.
How much must you suck? No, that's neither a request for an invite to your mangina cyberchat website, nor an excuse to post chat logs.

[bhodi]

I actually came to correct a falsehood posted by a member of this forum but since some posters here have expressed a desire for proper debate I'll be happy to take up the gauntlet and do just that.

Explain to me, in 200 words or less, how starbase destruction is a positive change from the current mechanic?

Since it's already been noted that there are no small corps holding stations, only larger alliances (who can destroy other, smaller alliance stations) and those who own no stations (who live in lowsec/empire) would benefit from this change. Since it would only take a few hundred people to destroy something that thousands have worked for and relied on in both these cases, the 'fun' balance is simply not there.

A lot of the 'fun' in eve comes from revenge, and in one of these cases, the ones who lose a station have no opportunity for recourse. EvE devs saw this and the whole sovereignty mechanic was put in place to prevent such an imbalance. 0.0 empires are built on stability, and this change would completely reverse the current paradigm.

We would have a situation where larger kids can run in and kick over your space sandcastle, or where small kids can run in and kick over your space sandcastle in the night and then go running to the skirts of mommy empire, impervious to counter assault.

[Amarr HM]

Well I personally am ambivalent to the idea though it does seem strange that something is indestructable. I think one of Jade's points that was made in his blog is what happens in a couple of years when 0.0 is littered with outposts. I'm pretty sure people didn't vote for Jade because of his ideas on Outposts alone and I don't see it being vetoed just cause the Head of CSM says so, he still needs to get the backing of the players and other CSM members. The majority of people probably don't really want it so all we are doing is a fuellling a discussion that's fit for the blackhole that is Eve-o's Features and Ideas thread. In other words lets move on here.

 So why not make a vote of game issues that people feel need most attention and whichever tops it we can discuss here in detail and try and remove ourselves from this ad-hominem (of which I admit I took a small part in) it's not really progressive at all.

Features and ideas has this thread which will give you an idea of the most requested features players want though it is an old thread would be nice to update something like this.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=475749

[Hakeldaima]

His presence here is therefore probably not coincidental, as Hakel will doubtless have filled him in on this as well as unleashing him on us (thanks a fucking bunch).

I informed Jade of the fact that his picture had been posted on this forum (AM or BAT were not mentioned). I had only ever seen the picture in question on our internal forums and thought it possible that the origin of the picture lay there. I don't think I have to defend telling my CEO of a possible security breach, however unlikely.

If this makes me look like a huge spy, so be it. Your conversations with Jade are between you and him though.

[gimpyone]

Because a picture probably posted by the person in the picture somewhere else is a security breach when it hits our forums.

[MahrinSkel]

If there's a security breach for you guys, it was probably through the Goons, and irrelevant to this board.  There's a private board where BAT discusses internals, this is a public board for everyone at f13 who is interested in Eve (not all are members of BAT, we have some goons, a couple of BoB, and others not affiliated with any faction).  IOW, your internal security issues are none of our affair.  And please don't try to fight the council battles here, we're more interested in the overall gameplay/game design implications than the moral arguments.

--Dave

[Endie]

Indeed, that picture was all over gf.com days ago.  Given Jade's outspoken attitude towards the goons and close links to Bob members I don't imagine anyone can be terribly surprised when they take the time to infiltrate SF pretty thoroughly.

[Hoax]

Thoughts:

1)  Jade your going to have to do better. 

2)  Endie, stop, stick with destructable outposts or some other policy issue.


Destructable Outposts --

Advantages:  More lost by winners and losers = more money sink = less supercap funds
Disadvantages:  Anything that increases risk will reduce conflict.  Reducing conflict means more fucking NAPtrains which means even less independence in 0.0.  It will make people much more cautious about (re)building an Outpost in the first place.

So while it will put more sinks into the top of the food chain alliance's wallet, it also will seemingly increase the gap between the Outpost holding alliances and those who can not secure one.  Which side of the scale is better for the game?  No fucking clue personally.

Thats really all there is right?  I'm 50/50 on it, because I'm not in a 0.0 Outpost/Supercap building alliance and that shit happens far beyond my 200mil or less in the wallet character's playstyle.  I have no issue with it being discussed though and nobody has really presented anything that makes me say, nope thats so stupid its not even worth talking about.

Of course that could be because this thread was littered with so much eve-o style bullshit and space politics that I couldn't stand reading most of it.  Cut that shit out, this is still f13 so act like it or fuck off.  I dont know dick about the subject so I'd be happy to read an informed discussion if it can at least maintain the level of single:noise ratio that we have in the War thread most pages.  Right now this thread is a big failure.

Did I miss anything?