Council of Stellar Management Voting Active

[Kamen]

I spent a few hours reading the various CSM threads last night.  The thing that struck me is how even when Jade makes a valid point, is actually right about something, he does it in such an annoying manner that it's bound to cause even more drama and disruption.  Hardly chairmanlike.

Nobody likes an arrogant ass, but after years of board whoring it appears that he simply can't get out of "winning teh internetz" mode.

[Pezzle]

The general EVE public has only been subjected to this for a few weeks.  Some of us have been dealing with it for YEARS.

[SillyFish]

The general EVE public has only been subjected to this for a few weeks.  Some of us have been dealing with it for YEARS.

Why haven't you done extensive infiltration into his corporation structure and stolen some of the 86ish t2 bpo's his corp has. The person who has to deal with him daily would get have of it and a bottle of rum. The rest you uses to make him cry on TS and record it. Also he and peoke seem like they were made for each other.

[eldaec]

It is good for something, providing drama to keep the masses enthralled.

This might be more true than I had previously considered.  Take a look at this thread - second only to War as the biggest thread here.

It's got some catching up to do, but I think this thread is up to it!

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've started checking this thread way more often than I catch up on the War thread.

We haven't had a source of comedy gold like this since Grunk.

Actually, I'm putting up the OMG-Awesome-in-here sign over this thread.

[eldaec]

Ankhesetapemkah - Ankh ese tape mkah.  Call her Leeloo.

EDIT:  eh, I missed an n there.  Ankhesentapemkah.  My mnemonic device won't work now.

Except Leeloo Dallas multi-pass was awesome fifth element is awesome. Milla Jovovich is hot but in some bad movies.

This shit is why I am unlikely to ever buy a character.

[lac]

que?

[Grand Design]

Queso?

Mmmm.

[Pezzle]

Why haven't you done extensive infiltration into his corporation structure and stolen some of the 86ish t2 bpo's his corp has. The person who has to deal with him daily would get have of it and a bottle of rum. The rest you uses to make him cry on TS and record it. Also he and peoke seem like they were made for each other.

Lots of reasons I could give you but the easiest is we do not engage in that kind of activity.

[amiable]

*runs up to thread panting*

Hey guys.  *Gasps for Breath*  What'd I miss?

[Endie]

OK, I know who Jade Constantwhine is, I know Goumindong from his... um...  unique opinions in the PvE/PvP forums in GF while Pezzle is, unless I am very much mistaken, CVA.  So who is Sillyfish?  My guess, from the 86 BPOs reference and the firm opinions on peoke, we're talking another goon.

[Pezzle]

Yes, I am CVA.  Did Peoke claim to own 86 T2 bpo's?  I know Jade bragged at one time about his extensive T2 portfolio, maybe the reference was to that.

[Endie]

Yes, I am CVA.  Did Peoke claim to own 86 T2 bpo's?  I know Jade bragged at one time about his extensive T2 portfolio, maybe the reference was to that.

Yes, the reference is from here, to the goonfleet forums, where you are quoted, on here, where you quote Jade.  If Peoke had amassed such riches then he would have had to be, in some limited way, competent.

[Phildo]

This thread is like an iceberge.  Lots of stuff on the surface, but so much more under the water (Goon forums) that most of us will never see.

[Simond]

It's not exactly difficult to get information from the Goon forums. 

[bhodi]

Welcome to another edition of Jade's eve-o roundup!

Wherein someone finds the eve roleplaying brothel chatroom before Jade took it down (what we were talking about on page 1-2 of this thread)

I'm completely uncomfortable with the direction that Jade Constantine might take this game due to his past involvement in a roleplaying brothel chatroom inside EVE.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040724180503/http://www.mordante.demon.co.uk/Maison.htm
This is the original site for information on this.

http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/viewtopic.php?t=2480&highlight=maison
These are old posts showing he's clearly involved and it's not some goon conspiracy to tarnish his name.

http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=501920#501920
This is a post where he claims the whole thing is a goon conspiracy and denies all of it.

This is not somebody I want to have represent us to CCP since he obviously is very different from your average player. On top of that he apparently likes to lie about things.

Jade agrees to take a revote on the CSM Chair...

Well the meeting was 75% fiasco, 25% useful.

But ultimately good issues got onto the agenda including the council-voted CSM chair.
I'll be pushing that one in Iceland and hopefully it gets added to the constitution.
If it does I'll be stepping down from chair and seeing what the re-vote brings.

The council will be able to vote for its own chair and I'll probably get to sit back and sip fine wine. But at least I'll have cat-herded some decent issues onto the agenda and made a progressive change to the constitution in the inaugural CSM.

Anything else is pure froth at this point.

Someone notices Jade is taking pointers from a 1944 Business Sabotage manual...

* Insist on doing everything through “channels.” Never permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions.
* Make “speeches.” Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Illustrate your “points” by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences. Never hesitate to make a few appropriate “patriotic” comments.
* Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.
* Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions.
* Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that decision.

That's just a sampling.

An entire Jade callout thread entitled The CSM do not represent the best interests of EVE.

I'm a prophet apparently

All I can say is read again, take on the range of 3rd party opinions, read the op post and have a think about this. Or better still, get over it. If you are interested in the CSM go comment on some actual ISSUEs and stop whining about the fact we're in the jerry-springer show while you're the one trying to burst onto the stage chanting "jerry jerry jerry".

MAN IF EVERYONE WOULD JUST SHUT UP AND AGREE WITH ME WE WOULDNT BE ARGUING

But I'm going to try to put this right. I've started by making a ruling that all potential changes to the constitution/founding documents must be raised in the form of documented ISSUEs and join the queue with the rest for CCP approval. I hope this will stop these things clogging up the beginning of meetings.

Er...you can't actually do that.

He is like the vice president he can do anything even shoot someone in the head and not get in trouble for it because he is emperor palpatine .

Whilst I'm watching you each flame the other here, I do have to ponder the following:

I would like here and now to call on my fellow CSM reps to stop briefing against each other publicly and privately - we shouldn't be fighting over matters of procedure on the forums, and we definitely shouldn't be taking disagreements over meeting moderation to the court of public debate.

I concur that all the CSM would be better serving the electorate if they would moderate their tone and act more reasonably, but these public fora are basically the place presently provided. As the quote goes "There are two things you don't want to see made: sausages and laws." Well, we aren't making laws but we are certainly trying to sort out policies and procedures which is a close thing, and just as you wouldn't expect our state legislatures to hide away in private I do not believe the CSM should either. We were elected in the public eye and should be seen to serve in the public eye. Oh, and yes, I include myself in that 'could all do better' piece.

But then - after enjoining everyone to create world peace and harmony - you then go and write

a motion to allow CSM reps to come and go in meetings and contradicting the stated role of alternates

*again* editorialising a decision of the CSM. Nobody asked for the ability to "come and go", and your re-write to suggest they did is the opposite of "definitely shouldn't be taking disagreements over meeting moderation to the court of public debate".

IZ

... several Jade walls of text later ...

Well Inanna, for the record I also strongly object that rather than asking the Chair and Vice Chair to clarify the muting decision in a private channel...
You have never approached me privately and asked for explanation.

And I never will do so in a private channel! The chat log is a public document and as such everything pertaining to it is also public. To permit such an 'explanation' to take place where it is not and could not be made public would go against serving the voters and players generally who, as much as I do, want to know why you acted as you did (and contrary to your own rules as you have set them out even if not accepted by other members of the CSM)

Clearly, I am not going to get an answer from you; that much is clear. And I have to accept that you will continue to hide behind that statement. You must, therefore, accept that I will continue to feel aggrieved for that same reason.

IZ

Jade's gender bending makes it difficult to figure out what to call him/her/it:

That's just my opinion on the subject. Take it or leave it. To be frank while I may disagree with Jade I could really care less about what it does provided it's not presuming to tell me what I can say, how I have to say it or taking what I said and changing into something else. I can't speak for anyone else in that regard.

Would it be asking too much to suggest you cut out this referring to another person as "it" business? We got elected as people, we know each others names and we're going to be sitting down at a face to face conference next week. We might not like each other but referring to other council members as "it" is hardly helping the atmosphere at this point. You aren't going to be doing this face to face, why act this way on a public forum?

..

"he" and "him" would be quite appropriate since we're talking in an out of character sense. If it was an unintentional slip then fair enough. But please try not to make a habit of it since it can be construed as quite insulting to refer to another human being as an "it".

Thank you.

[Pezzle]

Typical Jade behavior.  I knew about the brothel page a long time ago.  I think it came up on the chatsubo, a place I have all but abandoned.  Unless they have been purged there are some serious hate flame threads in the archives there.  Everything you see in these CSM and related threads is a repeat of behavior that was documented to the point of nausea.

[Grand Design]

Would it be asking too much to suggest you cut out this referring to another person as "it" business?

IT RUBS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN.


Sorry, Jade brings out the Buffalo Bill in me.  But it was asking for it.

[amiable]

This is why I love EvE, in what other game would the exposure of a in-game reverse-gender pornographic chatroom be considered a minor side-issue?

[Simond]

This is why I love EvE, in what other game would the exposure of a in-game reverse-gender pornographic chatroom be considered a minor side-issue?

I was going to say 'Second Life' but then realised that would probably be viewed as a positive over there.

[Pezzle]

mostly because it is fun to say

look at dat fuqqin wall of text!
http://myeve.eve-online.com/mb/news.asp?nid=2072

[Endie]

mostly because it is fun to say

look at dat fuqqin wall of text!
http://myeve.eve-online.com/mb/news.asp?nid=2072

Yep, there is little doubt who wrote that lengthy puff piece up.

[ClydeJr]

First CSM trip to Iceland is over. From what they've been posting, it sounds like it went well. Jade was not killed in any fits of nerd rage.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=801854 - Bunch of the CSMs posting here. Not much real info.

http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=17707 - Hardin and Jade posting here. More info here.

GTCs: After being pushed, CCP agreed that their original reason for the changing of GTCs was pretty much fluff and market-speak. They said that handling all the different cards was difficult to admin, plus the whole thing just didn't help CCPs bottom line. They much prefer people use credit cards and similar things.

0.0: They want to change up the sov system since right now, sov battles are won by who can blob the most. They'd like to do more FW types things where instead of having a 300 man battle over a single objective, have 10 30-man battles instead. Jump bridges force 0.0 to look like a bunch of castles with teleporters in the courtyards. They want to change that so there's more opportunity for logistics pvp.

Destructible outposts: Jade's pet project. They said due to technical issues, they couldn't be blown up. One idea that did come up with the possibility of "pillaging" outposts (taking their fittings and stuff and leaving a husk of a station). The owner still keeps control but it would require a bunch of isk to get it working again.

Black Ops: CCP agreed that they're overnerfed and would like to makes some changes to it. They talked about ships having a additions "fuel" cargohold so they could adjust the jump distances for individual ships. Another idea was to give the deep space transports a covert role so they could use the covert cyno.

[Jayce]

Destructible outposts: Jade's pet project. They said due to technical issues, they couldn't be blown up.

Yeah.  It's "technically" a stupid idea.

[dwindlehop]

Outpost pillaging! Space Vikings are 

Actually, I'd be plenty happy with moon mining POS pillaging which probably has a better chance of being implemented.

[Amarr HM]

Like the sound of deep space transports & black ops tech.

[ajax34i]

All of it, SoonTM though.

[Phildo]

Just flew in a CVA gang and one of the ships was named WALL OF TEXT.

[ajax34i]

Ok, so, I wanted to post what is probably a complete plagiarism of CCP's bunker system and/or the threads about cynojammers and pos warfare etc., and ask your opinions about it.


TLDR version:
- moons and planets function like (ship hi/med/low) slots
- specialized military towers/bunkers should be introduced to function like the modules we use on ships (one tower per moon = one function per moon)
- industrial infrastructure must harvest local resources to fuel military assets (local resources would determine how many towers you can anchor/support)
- cynojammer arrays should function like WCS'es (send a fleet of cyno alts in, to overcome the many cynojammer bunkers the defenders have anchored)
- sov. should be determined by military anchorables, and not by industrial POSes/outposts/infrastructure
- military assets must be taken out in a certain order (like the vulnerable/invulnerable mechanic from FW) and otherwise all contribute to the sov. level.


Long Version:

CCP did the following (not in that order, but that's the result):

- they made moons function like slots that we could anchor things at
- made planets function like higher level slots for anchoring other things at
- randomized the number of moons and planets

- randomized the resources in the system that we can harvest (roids, ice, moon contents, spawns, complexes), and sustaining any anchored assets doesn't depend on local resources as fuel.  Instead, shit must be hauled from Empire to be used as fuel.

- gave us control over the HP and durability of the various modules we can anchor (any module can be placed at the strongest possible deathstar, so everything is super-tanked).

I'd guess that the fix they're looking for is something like this (they haven't said this; this is my own armchair design/compilation/plagiarism):

- Categorize all anchorable assets into two categories:  military and industrial.

- Make each military component a stand-alone, anchorable tower/bunker, with its own shields, HP's, and defense guns (so CCP can balance them).  We should have cynojammer bunkers, system defense bunkers (ze deathstar), gate defense bunkers, system scanner bunkers, and so on, and we should be able to anchor one per moon.  Ships should be able to hide inside the shields of these things and aid in the defense.

- Regular POSes should contain industrial modules (harvesters, reactors, hangars) and be anchorable at any moon not used by a military installation (and viceversa).

- The industry should supply the military (for example, must harvest atmospherics at a POS in order to keep cynojammers fueled).

- The military assets should be inter-linked so that the presence of all of them contributes to system defense / sovereignty, and so that they're vulnerable / invulnerable in some order, and must be attacked in a particular sequence.  For example, take out system defense bunkers before cynojammers become vulnerable, etc.  Mandatory wait periods (based on stront) can be built into this mechanic to give defenders time to react.

- Make Sovereignty level depend on the presence and health of military bunkers only and not depend on the industrial POSes.  Give each industrial and military asset a bonus per level of sov., so that bigger sov increases defenses a little and increases the industrial side quite a bit.  (Make Sov. level function like the "per skill level" ship bonuses.)

- Switch cynojammers to the WCS system:  let us anchor as many cynojammer bunkers as the local moon slots can support, and if the enemy wants to beat that they can send in a whole bunch of cyno alts to beat the total jamming strength.  For example, if there are 6 cynojammers in the system and the enemy sends in 7 (fleeted) cyno alts, and the defenders don't take them out fast, the enemy cap fleet can get a lock on one of the alts and jump in.

- POSes and Outposts should just be rally points and industrial bases (with some defenses).  Taking them out should not be neccessary to gain sov. or conquer the system, and it shouldn't be as hard as it is now.  Taking out the military bunkers should be the only requirement for conquering the system, and should be where the difficulty and the need for firepower is.  The POSes / Outpost should just be the (optional) loot drops once the system is conquered / Sov is taken.

Is something like this feasible?  Is it desirable?  Would they have to re-seed all 0.0 solar systems to re-balance moon counts and harvestables, in order for this to work?

[MahrinSkel]

Sound like certain Outposts that were deliberately placed in low-moon systems back when keeping more than a dozen reserve POS was a stretch would wind up very vulnerable, almost unholdable in some cases (the lowest count I know of was 5, FIX built our ED- station there because it had 11).

It's a lot more workable than destructible outposts.  Throw in Stargates as a garrison point so you can keep the enemy from camping your own gates with trivial forces, and you'd have a plan.

--Dave

[Phildo]

What does the gate bunker idea mean for roaming gangs?  Each red system you warp into will have a scram and web battery at the gate to catch one or two of you?

[UnSub]

Ok, so, I wanted to post what is probably a complete plagiarism of CCP's bunker system and/or the threads about cynojammers and pos warfare etc., and ask your opinions about it.

STOP IT YOUR RUINING THIS THREAD ABOUT JADE HOW CREATING SUPER-POWERD SPESUL POSTERS HAS NO DOWNSIDES.

 

I think actually playing EVE would reduce my enjoyment of it.

[ajax34i]

What does the gate bunker idea mean for roaming gangs?  Each red system you warp into will have a scram and web battery at the gate to catch one or two of you?

Well, these things would be defensive structures that a fleet would need to destroy in order to take sov., and not freeform towers that the defenders can deathstar and anchor webs and scrams and set to aggro.  Basically, CCP decides how many HP's and shields a gate bunker would have, and whether it has guns, ewar capabilities, etc.  We just plop it down to add to sov.; we can defend it with ships, but it's not a POS tower that we can anchor stuff at.

The idea is to let us customize the whole system (the smallest sov. unit) by fitting it out like a ship with various fixed-capability towers (not neccessarily deathstars).  The solar system is customizable, the POSes aren't anymore (unless they're industry POSes, then we can feel free to mix and match harvesters, reactors, silos, and manufacturing arrays to our hearts content). 

[Pezzle]

Guns on gates is a bad idea.  Your haulers would become much less vulnerable (in some ways less than low sec).  How would the guns know what to shoot?  Standings lists?  Yeah, there is a potential clusterfuck.  Even if we fix the related issues do we really want to force more combat to system gates?  Further, small roaming gangs should not have a direct impact on sov, not ever.

[MahrinSkel]

Haulers are already invulnerable to ordinary attacks once they get into the JB networks.  You can kill them, but you're going to need battleships, and you're going to lose a few (and forget about taking out the freighters).

--Dave

[Jayce]

[Captain Obvious says] The difference between a POS and a gate gun is that you can ignore the POS if you are just toodling around the system looking for PvP.  You can't avoid the gate no matter what you do.

Reducing 0.0 roaming gangs but increase lowsec "canned" warfare sounds like a move in the wrong direction to me.