Council of Stellar Management Voting Active

[Jade Constantine]

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[Calantus]

Disadvantages:  Anything that increases risk will reduce conflict.  Reducing conflict means more fucking NAPtrains which means even less independence in 0.0.  It will make people much more cautious about (re)building an Outpost in the first place.

This is the big thing about making wr more costly. If fighting hurts you do everything in your power to make sure you don't have to fight. More than just more NAP trains it also means that the new alliance setting up shop next to you is more important to stamp out than before. Now if they manage to take a system it's no huge deal, you can finish what you're doing and come back if need be. If they could destroy your stations... yeah you're not going to leave them around long.

If you want more dynamic borders, less NAPs, and a place for new alliances you need to increase conflict. The more fighting there is the more windows of opportunity to set up while the established alliances are too busy to go wipe you off the map, and when they do turn on you it's not going to hurt too badly so long as you can hold out. Sov 4 is the right direction they need to take. Ideally each alliance could have one stronghold system that is highly profitable, very secure, and easy to stage out of. Then give reduced security and profit to the constellation, then after that any new space has a lot less security, less profitability, and it's harder to move around in (no stations outside of home constellations perhaps, no jump bridges, etc). Make that extra space worth fighting over with the incentive of fighting being a fun thing, but not important enough to be too concerned over. The problem is the ability to hold vast amounts of space for no reason. BoB had no reason to hold all that space they had, which is why they had pets. The 3 main alliances in RSF have no reason to hold the space they have now. If tomorrow half of RSF space got taken back I'm sure none of them would even notice the lack of it. They hold it because they can. They can defend all of it because it's no trouble to go from one end to the other and anybody trying to set up down there has no more defencive bonuses than the RSF system next to them.

Make it cheap, easy, and profitable to set up a new alliance's stronghold and make it easy to fight fringe territory wars. Just make it harder to take, profit off, and defend vast amounts of space. Make it harder to completely wipe an alliance off the map so people can get established, they can fight for bigger territory with the big boys later on, but they need a secure foothold first. Making it uniformly hard is just cutting out the startups, not encouraging them.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jade Constantine]

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[bhodi]

Yeah so you have 3 out of 4 posts so far here on page 6, and 10 of 35 on the last page.

You need to simmer down. Just a little.


What I don't understand is that you don't even live in 0.0 -- how are you competent to suggest changes to things like 0.0 or titans when you've probably never even seen one much less been on the giving and/or receiving end of a doomsday or participated in a large scale space holding 0.0 alliance?

This goes for the girl who's been in an NPC corp for life as well, I'm not just picking on you.

[Calantus]

This is the big thing about making wr more costly. If fighting hurts you do everything in your power to make sure you don't have to fight. More than just more NAP trains it also means that the new alliance setting up shop next to you is more important to stamp out than before. Now if they manage to take a system it's no huge deal, you can finish what you're doing and come back if need be. If they could destroy your stations... yeah you're not going to leave them around long.

That kind of thinking is out of some pseudo-intellectual game-theory premise really. You need to remember that a lot of people play eve for the conflict and space-wars, its simply not accurate to map the risk-adverse (lets setup and mine moons for isk and buy our gametime cards) mindset on the rest of Eve online. People play in 0.0 because they enjoy fighting, increasing the cost of wars will actually lead to meaningful results and one sight or another being bankrupted out of their holding and that makes for a more fluid landscape on the frontier and in an game like eve that is a good thing.

My opinion here isn't a game theory premise with no backing, it was proven in Shadowbane where servers became giant NAP-fests because most alliances were too afraid to lose real wars because the cost was devastating. This in addition to the alliances who quit the game when they lost so heavily resulted in a very stagnant PVP game for a number of servers. Make wars cost too much and people stop having them. I don't care how hardcore some players are, the majority of players, even 0.0 players are not. The hardcore will be left to play with themselves in the vast open space that nobody else is willing to pay the price for (or massive NAPs negate the issue entirely).

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jade Constantine]

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[bhodi]

Poor assumptions on you behalf really, lets leave it at that.

I'm sorry if I don't have your entire corp history in memory, but this wasn't an answer. You currently live in empire, yes? You've been there for a while? Since before trinity?

If you want to ignore the question, just ignore the question, one sentence flippant replies don't really help your case.

[Jade Constantine]

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[bhodi]

Yeah, see, this is why no one likes you.

Edit: I'll be clearer. Generally, part of an explanation on why someone is wrong includes educating or explaining, instead of just declaring by fiat. You're now talking about the question I asked and trying to sidetrack into a semantics argument instead of just answering my concerns.

Edit2: Now you're trolling. This isn't CAOD, so stop it.

[Jade Constantine]

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[bhodi]

And here we are 7 posts later and you still haven't assuaged my concerns by EXPLAINING instead of ALLUDING to your 0.0 and alliance experience. How much clearer can I possibly be?

Edit: you know what? Nevermind. I'm just shitting up this thread. I'm stopping. Before I do, however, I will say RE: My goony nature, "Poor assumptions on you behalf really, lets leave it at that."

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jayce]

How about just banning this idiot?  He's way worse than even Bruce.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jonny Damordred]

As i said, through one tortuous construction you can make his argument true.  However, Stimulus left SF, fought some empire wars, and rejoined.  Probably repeatedly, though I have no great interest in their comings and goings.

Is it really a "tortuous construction" to say STIMULUS IS NOT IN STAR FRACTION?  - Couldn't you check on the live server?

The fact is that the latest SF/Stim infiltration of Aegis Militia happened last year, and Stimulus was last in The Star Fraction as recently as ten weeks ago.

Mmmhmm, they re-joined briefly for the Alliance tournament and left immediately afterwards. Star Fraction has absolutely no interest in their corp theft/sabotage agenda against Aegis Militia, as I said, you presented falsehoods as "facts" and you've been called out on those.

I am Jonny Damordred, CEO of Stimulus.  Just to set the record straight, we helped SF in the tourney and thats it, period.

We have our own forums: http://www.westimulateyou.com/ and we have our own killboard: http://stim.griefwatch.net/.

Oh and as a response to this:

2 - He and his friends metagame like the Mittani only dreams of, so all the holier-than-thou stuff about goons is a touch rich (goons help out CVA a lot, though, so they are bad metagamers, not good roleplayers).  Coincidentally, one of their usual targets is Aegis Militia.  His presence here is therefore probably not coincidental, as Hakel will doubtless have filled him in on this as well as unleashing him on us (thanks a fucking bunch).  Last time it was the theft of a bunch of POSes, bpos, cash etc by a person - one of Jade's underlings - who spent the better part of a year befriending some of the AM guys, gaining their trust etc.  I, of course, am in a weak position to judge anyone on this, but it's worth bearing in mind (as in lock up your BPOs, don't grant tower rights to anyone but established posters etc).

Since you actually batted an eye at a corp-theft: let me be the first to welcome you to EvE Online, I see you are new here.  Mind you ass and wear your cup, we aren't very friendly.

Cheers,
Jonny D.

[Calantus]

Yeah, see, this is why no one likes you.
Edit: I'll be clearer. Generally, part of an explanation on why someone is wrong includes educating or explaining, instead of just declaring by fiat. You're talking about the question I asked instead of just answering it.

Ah since you actually edited in some content I'll be nicer. You made a false assumption Bhodi, I told you its a false assumption. You said I know nothing about 0.0 space. I'm telling you thats false. I guess if you want to take it to a court of virtual law you're going to need to prove your allegation somehow. Either that or continue being an ass.

This isn't a virtual court of law, it's a discussion. In trials you're guilty until proven innocent and so attacking the allegation makes sense, in a discussion you're supposed to actually discuss the issue instead.

COAD is full of morons easily distracted by semantic arguments and walls of text, but nobody here is going to just fall over and give in because you avoid the issue at hand. You can pull us into a semantics argument easily enough, but it wont change anything.



And yes, I got a Bruce feeling about this guy pretty quickly. From the walls of text saying nothing, arguing semantics and attacking the allegation over discussion, making the topic all about himself, and the Sir Brucing itself. If his picture wasn't posted I would have suspected it was Bruce for sure.

[Jade Constantine]

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[MahrinSkel]

How about just banning this idiot?  He's way worse than even Bruce.

I would be ironic street cred to get banned from a goon-infested forum I'll grant you. But alternatively the numpties could just stop being numpties and everything is peachy. Radical concept I know but a guy's gotta try you know. I'm very happy to return to the discussion if everyone has gotten all their bile and nonsense out of the way now and we've cleared up all of Endie/Bodhi's personal issues now?

Okay, now you're starting to annoy me.  Let me explain something about where you are at the moment.  This is f13.net, heir to the Lum The Mad diaspora (the artist formerly known as Lum is still around here somewhere).  The guys with red names actually work in the MMO industry, most of them as designers (not that we get any special respect, it's more like a target than a badge, but we know what we're talking about).  There are people here who have been participating in discussions and post-mortems of MMO's since the days of M59 and UO (more than 10 years now), which is part of why there are so many "red names", a lot of them are LtM alumni who worked their way into the industry (that would include me).

These people, by and large, know their stuff.  You can't wave that away with some rhetoric about "pseudo-intellectual game theory".  We've been there, done that, seen how this shit works in practice.  Increase the costs of participating in PvP, and you reduce the number of people who will participate and the risks they will take.  Period, full-stop, end of line.  And if you keep acting like this, *I'm* going to be asking the admins to boot you, and I'm no goon (there are only 3 or 4 of them here, and we like to think of them more as mascots than as an infestation).  These people are being comparatively polite to you because I asked them to be, behave yourself or things are going to get ugly.  Keep calling in reinforcements to try and protect your "street cred" and I'm going to go into full on flame mode myself.

--Dave

[Calantus]

I made a contribution to the discussion. You countered by saying that it was pseudo-intellectual game-theory. I countered saying it was based from observation of the exact same phenomenon in actual scenarios (I can add more examples too if Shadowbane doesn't work for you). You countered with in my day..., stated that alliance wealth and security were the changes that caused today's problems, and then proceeded to ignore your own point to push your solution of making the fighting hurt while masturbating to the idea of alliances being destroyed and sent back to empire to rebuild wealth before shoving their dick into the vice again. The reality, which becomes perfectly clear when I make myself actually read what you write, is that you don't care about new alliances making a go of it. You care about destroying what real 0.0 alliances hold before running back to empire.

I stopped discussing the issue with you because you're being insincere about your motives. It's useless for me to point out why your idea doesn't help new alliances starting up in 0.0 when you don't care about that beyond it being a hook you used to reel in the suckers that voted for you. So I went back to attacking you and your arguments because it amuses me.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jayce]

How about just banning this idiot?  He's way worse than even Bruce.

I would be ironic street cred to get banned from a goon-infested forum I'll grant you. But alternatively the numpties could just stop being numpties and everything is peachy. Radical concept I know but a guy's gotta try you know. I'm very happy to return to the discussion if everyone has gotten all their bile and nonsense out of the way now and we've cleared up all of Endie/Bodhi's personal issues now?

And to be clear, I love a good discussion of game mechanics - almost any game that I'm familiar with.  But I'm not seeing it in this thread. Here's a hint:  the mark of a good writer is someone who can bring his point across in FEWER words, not more.

Also, nearly every post seems to include some sort of disparagement about people I've known for years, whose ideas are generally well-considered and whose character is solid.  That disparagement makes me prone to dismissing your opinions before I even read them.  Incidentally, I didn't read them.  I tried, but I recognize forum warfare when I read it, and I can't be arsed anymore with that sort of juvenile bullshit.

[Jade Constantine]

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[Jonny Damordred]

Okay, now you're starting to annoy me.  Let me explain something about where you are at the moment.  This is f13.net, heir to the Lum The Mad diaspora (the artist formerly known as Lum is still around here somewhere).  The guys with red names actually work in the MMO industry, most of them as designers (not that we get any special respect, it's more like a target than a badge, but we know what we're talking about).  There are people here who have been participating in discussions and post-mortems of MMO's since the days of M59 and UO (more than 10 years now), which is part of why there are so many "red names", a lot of them are LtM alumni who worked their way into the industry (that would include me).

These people, by and large, know their stuff.  You can't wave that away with some rhetoric about "pseudo-intellectual game theory".  We've been there, done that, seen how this shit works in practice.  Increase the costs of participating in PvP, and you reduce the number of people who will participate and the risks they will take.  Period, full-stop, end of line.  And if you keep acting like this, *I'm* going to be asking the admins to boot you, and I'm no goon (there are only 3 or 4 of them here, and we like to think of them more as mascots than as an infestation).  These people are being comparatively polite to you because I asked them to be, behave yourself or things are going to get ugly.  Keep calling in reinforcements to try and protect your "street cred" and I'm going to go into full on flame mode myself.

Well, first off, I am not a reenforcement.  Yes, Jade mentioned to me that my Corporation's name was being drug through the mud here, but I made the decision to post.

With that being said, let me touch on two points:

Firstly, I don't doubt you when you say that there are people with vast experience in the MMO world.  I would point out however, that not all MMO's are created equal.  Using knowledge from one MMO (WOW for instance) and putting it against another (EvE) would lead you to a highly dubious prediction.  I would also point out that someone with a general knowledge of the landscape would never outdo someone with specific knowledge of the domain in question.

Secondly, Jade is right, 0.0 as a whole is stagnate.  There may be some ripples at the edges, but behind those edges are regions full of nothing, no people and no resource harvesting.  Now I've seen mention that EvE as a playerbase needs more systems to expand, but I know, from looking at the environment of the game, that there is a huge underutilization of the space the playerbase has.  Why?

The reason why the underutilization of 0.0 is simple:  The balance of difficulty between attacker and defender is too skewed in the defenders favor.  All it takes is two mods on a pos and it goes from "hard" to "meh, I'd rather do something else".  Two mods, costing a total of less than 100m isk (a pittance) together are the reason for the stagnation.

Cheers,
Jonny D.

[Calantus]

You and that CEO are both missing Endie's point. The fact that they rejoined just to help with the tournament is inconsequential to the point that you obviously did not have that big of a problem with them if they were allowed to rejoin for any reason. I honestly don't even know why it is an issue because I skipped the posts wherein I assume it was explained yet still I know why your arguments are pointless semantics. Either you know this as well and are just talking sideways because you can't concede any point ever, or you missed the point because you're an idiot.

goons

There are like 4 goons here, and since goons are basically everywhere on the internet, having a handful of goons is meaningless. We also have many roleplayers and LARPers here and they don't get laughed at for doing it. It's true we don't like people like you, but the "people like you" in this instance is not "roleplayers". You roleplay a politically charged female prostitute in space, you can't expect people not to laugh at you. But in the end we will just laugh and move on because after the initial hilarity it's not important. Hell, the guy we're comparing you to confessed to having sex with a dog yet he was around for years until his annoying posting style pissed off too many people.


Also Jonny, you're describing a problem we all know and agree with. It's the solution we're disagreeing on. If sprawl is because defences are too strong you break the defences, raise offencive power, or disincentivise sprawling empires. You don't simply add the ability to make it hurt if the too-strong defence is overcome.

[Phildo]

1. What exactly ARE Jade Constantine's credentials in regards to 0.0 spaceholding alliances?  I'm being serious.

2. What you're proposing is to take people who have invested YEARS building up their space (Providence, for example) and making it easier for them to lose that investment.  That WOULD drive many to quit the game.

3. There are already plenty of penalties for losing your space.  I made the case of Ushra'Khan earlier.  It's been over a year and they have yet to reclaim any slice of 0.0 and are pretty much stranded in empire for the time being.

4. I don't even think there are four Goons here.  Most of us are in Bat Country which has the Goons set to red.

5. What Mahrin said.

Edit for 6: How can you say not enough has changed hands?  The largest space-holding alliance was reduced to 1 region in the last year, and has since taken back several of its old holdings.  Three major space-holding alliances have folded in the last month.  Goonswarm lost a Titan.  There's PLENTY of flux in 0.0, thanks.

[MahrinSkel]

Okay Mahrin, very interesting and thank you for making all that clear. Let me quickly fill you on on where I thought I'd arrived and we can see where perceptions differ.

Silly me, simply by reading this thread I'd got the impression it was some kind of practical joke forum which was about trolling people and then pretending the other person was to blame all along. Pardon my mistake Mahrin, but given the content of this thread before I posted anything can you honestly blame my confusion?

Try reading more than one thread, or more than one forum here.  Anyway, there's a fair chance that somewhere out there, somebody is taking a dump on my reputation, and how I haven't done anything worth talking about in the last few years.  I could follow the lead of He Who Must Not Be Named, track them down, and defend myself.  Or I could just not even let it occur to me that it would be worth my time.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on the specific point of Eve online 0.0 space conquest. What we've seen is a cheapening of combat buy-in for the major empires over the past 18 months and a diminished involvement in territorial warfare as the status quo become static and boring. There are many more capital ships in the game right now than at any point in the past - and yet the incidence of meaningful conflict in 0.0 is growing rarer by the day.

It's been static before, but I really have a hard time believing that the problem is that not enough is on the line.  In a major battle, hundreds of billions of ISK can go up in smoke, adding to the stakes is not going to help things.  The roots of the stasis lie elsewhere, in those POS warfare mechanics, and the fact that the stakes may already be too high and that is part of the problem.  The "buy-in" isn't going down, instead we've gone from a major battle being 12 capitals to 120, which has increased the lag and unpredictability (and therefore the uncontrollable risk of loss), but the investment as a proportion of total wealth has, if anything, gone *up*.
 

Nope, some of these people have behaved like complete assholes, lets be honest about it. If that can change then good. If not then fair enough. Absolutely no need to get all tangled up in each other's community standards.

From their POV, you stepped into a spectator's discussion of the CSM and took a giant dump in their forum.  And you really need to learn to write more succinctly, I can brain-dump a wall of text with the best of them, but I don't on forums.  You think you've got it bad, should see some of the stuff they've dumped on me over the years.  You've got to learn to take a punch without taking it personally, or you're going to go insane.

Anyway, the parallels are being drawn to Shadowbane because that's the closest one to draw, the only other game that involved substantial player investment in destructible infrastructure.  I could give you some examples from DAoC, which wasn't as hard-core as SB but had some of the same dynamics playing out.  There's also UO, Lineage, a few other games with PvP capital losses, none are nearly as "on point" as Shadowbane, but they are all consistant with the pattern.

--Dave

[Jonny Damordred]

You and that CEO are both missing Endie's point. The fact that they rejoined just to help with the tournament is inconsequential to the point that you obviously did not have that big of a problem with them if they were allowed to rejoin for any reason. I honestly don't even know why it is an issue because I skipped the posts wherein I assume it was explained yet still I know why your arguments are pointless semantics. Either you know this as well and are just talking sideways because you can't concede any point ever, or you missed the point because you're an idiot.

The point is: Corp theft is an everyday occurance in EvE.  Part of the landscape, up there with Suicide ganking and scamming.  All, by the way, condoned and (albet half-privately) cheered by CCP.  Hell, when the first major Corp theft happened, CCP used it to recruit more players.  Using the fact that we (Stimulus) did it against a third-party (Jade) is hilarious in the extreme.

goons

There are like 4 goons here, and since goons are basically everywhere on the internet, having a handful of goons is meaningless. We also have many roleplayers and LARPers here and they don't get laughed at for doing it. It's true we don't like people like you, but the "people like you" in this instance is not "roleplayers". You roleplay a politically charged female prostitute in space, you can't expect people not to laugh at you. But in the end we will just laugh and move on because after the initial hilarity it's not important. Hell, the guy we're comparing you to confessed to having sex with a dog yet he was around for years until his annoying posting style pissed off too many people.

I'd suggest you do a bit of research, Jade doesn't roleplay a prostitute.

Also Jonny, you're describing a problem we all know and agree with. It's the solution we're disagreeing on. If sprawl is because defences are too strong you break the defences, raise offencive power, or disincentivise sprawling empires. You don't simply add the ability to make it hurt if the too-strong defence is overcome.

Part of three steps:
1.) Nerf Cynojammers to hell by making them only carry fuel for a short amount of time (in the works already).
2.) Disassociate Sovereignty from POSes, hopefully with something more dynamic.
3.) Make outposts distructable, forcing people to actually defend what they have.

These three things alone would:
A.) Ballance out the attacker / defender scales.
B.) Collapse the size of 0.0 entities, since they'd actually have to defend.

Cheers,
Jonny D.

[Jonny Damordred]

2. What you're proposing is to take people who have invested YEARS building up their space (Providence, for example) and making it easier for them to lose that investment.  That WOULD drive many to quit the game.

3. There are already plenty of penalties for losing your space.  I made the case of Ushra'Khan earlier.  It's been over a year and they have yet to reclaim any slice of 0.0 and are pretty much stranded in empire for the time being.

All I can do is respond with a quote from CCP themselves:

CCP Wrangler: "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for."

And a piece of old EvE-Online wisdom:

"If you can't defend it, you don't deserve it"

Cheers,
Jonny D.

[Phildo]

As I see it, you make 0.0 easier to attack and add a huge penalty to the defenders.  The point of defending is that's SUPPOSED to be easier than attacking.  See: Thermopoly/300.

[Jonny Damordred]

It's been static before, but I really have a hard time believing that the problem is that not enough is on the line.  In a major battle, hundreds of billions of ISK can go up in smoke, adding to the stakes is not going to help things.  The roots of the stasis lie elsewhere, in those POS warfare mechanics, and the fact that the stakes may already be too high and that is part of the problem.The "buy-in" isn't going down, instead we've gone from a major battle being 12 capitals to 120, which has increased the lag and unpredictability (and therefore the uncontrollable risk of loss), but the investment as a proportion of total wealth has, if anything, gone *up*.

No, a promethium moon will make you on the order of a billion isk a week, and trust me, all but the smallest alliances control several.  Add in random officer spawns  from ratting, complexes and just plain old mining, and the cash flows like water.  Hell, any alliance worth the name is so freaking liquid in isk it isn't funny.

The fact of the matter is, 0.0 is so easy to defend that groups starting today can't ever get into the fight.

If you want proof, go look at the south-west, there is an assload of empty space, with it's occupants now fighting in the drone regions.  Ask yourself how and why they get away with that... it's a better question. 

Cheers,
Jonny D.

[Jonny Damordred]

As I see it, you make 0.0 easier to attack and add a huge penalty to the defenders.  The point of defending is that's SUPPOSED to be easier than attacking.  See: Thermopoly/300.

Um, fair enough.   It should be "easier" to defend, not "keep the cyno and jumpbridge pos fueled, then pick your nose" easy. 

Cheers,
Jonny D.

[schild]

I've read this whole thread.

I don't know what the fuck is going on. But if any of you spent this much time on a real job, you'd be fucking loaded.

[Jade Constantine]

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