Camelot Unchained

[Draegan]

Even if they could somehow capture the magic and put out an amazing RvR game from a mechanics point of view...  I think it would still be lacking without the community feeling that DAoC had.  Realm/Server pride and all that.  Seems most MMO players these days don't care for it. 

That's kind of what unexpectedly killed my interest in Guild Wars 2 WvW. Not being able to see the name of my enemies led to not giving a fuck, as it felt like they were smart mobs more than players I had to learn to hate or respect.

You actually learn to hate/respect guilds and not players.  It works better that way because most of the time fights are on the larger end of the scale and you'll often not find specific people to learn to hate or respect.

[Brogarn]

You actually learn to hate/respect guilds and not players.  It works better that way because most of the time fights are on the larger end of the scale and you'll often not find specific people to learn to hate or respect.

Guild tag and server, definitely. Also, I'll recognize a couple of roamers, mainly Thieves, on sight. But mostly it's about the tag and server.

[Falconeer]

I am sure it works for lot of people or they would have changed it. It just doesn't do it for me. At all.

[Nebu]

I am sure it works for lot of people or they would have changed it. It just doesn't do it for me. At all.

I'm with Falc here.  The WvW in GW2 did nothing for me.  I was bored with it in about 3 days.  I'm not sure if my boredom came from a lack of identity or just the mechanics in general.  The WvW just felt really bland.

[Brogarn]

I'm with Falc here.  The WvW in GW2 did nothing for me.  I was bored with it in about 3 days.  I'm not sure if my boredom came from a lack of identity or just the mechanics in general.  The WvW just felt really bland.

Oh, I definitely feel the bland. Rarely is there a sense of urgency or accomplishment. No real server pride. It's nothing like DAoC in that regard. Not sure why I do it, to be honest. I just like this style of PvP, so I keep doing it I guess.

I'm just saying that when you've been in the same tier for a bit, there is a certain level of recognition of your enemy that happens. It's just guild tag or server mostly that you get to know and despise, respect, or otherwise, instead of an actual name or group of names.

[Draegan]

I am sure it works for lot of people or they would have changed it. It just doesn't do it for me. At all.

I'm with Falc here.  The WvW in GW2 did nothing for me.  I was bored with it in about 3 days.  I'm not sure if my boredom came from a lack of identity or just the mechanics in general.  The WvW just felt really bland.

It's the mechanics.  Every day, every week it's the same exact thing.  I've got people in my guild that play this shit for hours.  You get no rewards, not scoring, no gear, no progression feedback.  Just a points per tick measurement that flips minute by minute and an over all score.

Flipping positions takes a small amount of time.  There is really no insentive unless you get into the meta of playing with friends and getting into the whole competition thing on a daily basis.

On the surface it's very bland and I struggle getting worked up about it.  There is nothing "big" about it.  No moments of glory honestly.  Flipping a keep just means you finally worked your way in and now you move on quickly to the next point.  I kind of likened it to running around and pluggin wholes in the dam all night.

We'll see what happens with the new patch and I've got an idea what they're going to do that I think will be pretty neat.

edit to add:
I play and enjoy it because I really like the combat system.  It's very simple (less abilities) and complex at the same time (relies more on timing and synergy).

[Xuri]

I did have one epic moment in GW2 PvP when my server held a small keep/tower thing against BOTH the other servers attacking it at once for over three hours. Last stand kind of moment. We lost, of course, but it was very pleasing to be able to hold out for that long (even for a long while after the walls came down) and frustrate the other two factions.

[Nebu]

I play and enjoy it because I really like the combat system.  It's very simple (less abilities) and complex at the same time (relies more on timing and synergy).

I think the GW2 combat system shines in 5v5, but is overshadowed by team build synergies.  I enjoyed the sport pvp aspect in GW2, but quit when my regular group moved on to other games.  I think that any new MMO could learn a lot from GW2.  I just hope they don't copy it completely.  GW2 did so many things right but pvp wasn't a shining example of them. 

[TheWall]

Sorry but this makes me want to share my favorite memory from that game. I used to roll on Kay server Midgard. Vozk and Thbb my buddy and I had troll skalds. Before they remade thidranki with the robot siege we would bring in our own siege weapons. We found a spot up on the zone wall that we could place a trebuchet that had line of sight on the Albion teleport pad. We learned the timing and every time an alb port happened we would kill 90% of them with a treb bomb. The spam of kills was glorious to behold. The forum tears on VN were life sustaining. I miss those days.

[Xanthippe]

The people who made DAoC are now making TESO, Mark Jacobs made WAR.

Which are the people who made Trials of Atlantis? I don't want to play that game. I want to play the game made by the people who made Shrouded Isles.

The 2nd pointless PVE expansion with ill-fitting lore was bad, but you really miss the first pointless PVE expansion with ill-fitting lore?

Shrouded Isles introduced new race and class (Valkyns/bonedancers). The new areas were cohesive and fairly pleasant to run through, the new class and race were fun additions.

Trials of Atlantis, on the other hand, introduced massive cockblocks (the Trials) and having to level your gear by killing hundreds of particular mobs. It was the most idiotic way to kill a game I have ever seen. Having to wait for 40 non-idiotic people to kill a mob before getting to go to the next Trial was the height of cockblockism. Leveling gear? Please.

[Xanthippe]

I'm enjoying Guild Wars 2 wvwvw. I do wish you could see guild tags on enemies though.

GW2 for me is a good substitute for DAOC. I never did the rvr for the rewards anyway but for the fun of it at the time. DAOC's pve was bad. GW2 is not.

I particularly enjoy not having to pay a monthly fee for it. The world is huge. I am still discovering whole zones I haven't visited.

[Raguel]

Did you guys not play sb.exe?

 

But even so I liked SB. I just preferred old Emain + BGs. SWTOR sub50 kind of feels like BGs, with the added knowledge/belief that there's nowhere for me to go but down once I hit 50.

eta: I just found out about this today and I was wondering why there was no thread about it yet. 

[Njal]

My Dwarf RM used to swim around in the Thid circular river 99% underwater and wait until someone was alone near the banks. Bolt, Bolt, cast enemy dead .... submerge again. Good times

[Hutch]

Jacobs is up to Foundational Principle #6 already? Did we miss some?

Instead of WoW (or WAR) style balance, Camelot Unchained will use Rock, Paper, Scissors.

[Nebu]

What's next?

Rule #7: Players think that they want shit in theory that they really don't want in practice!   

[Megrim]

ugh, rps. Crappy way to balance a game if there ever was one.

[Goreschach]

Jacobs is up to Foundational Principle #6 already? Did we miss some?

Instead of WoW (or WAR) style balance, Camelot Unchained will use Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Calling it right now: he's going to end up trying to balance three dozen different races/classes.

[Merusk]

ugh, rps. Crappy way to balance a game if there ever was one.

Even WoW learned that eventually, and they were sticking to it for a great many years.

Then again, he's mr "go back to the well again."

[HaemishM]

Wait, wasn't a HUGE part of the problem with DAoC was that RPS balancing blew FUCKING MONKEYS? Oh right, it was. It led to stupid shit like casters being gods unless tanks got in their face, at which point they were useless because they were paper and warriors were scissors. Glad to see learning nothing continues to be the main prerequisite for game design.

[UnSub]

Jacobs' "I won't bow to gold sellers!" rant in a previous column pretty much points to his thinking not evolving in the past 5 years. The impact of gold sellers started to wane when devs started to sell in-game resources straight to players.

Oh, and 'meaningful choices' combined with limited respecs in what amounts to a PvP MMO = oh, my sides.

[Ingmar]

DAOC was hardly RPS anyway in a realm sense anyway, which he seems to be implying it was. Everyone had pretty much the same tools, they just combined them differently on different classes in different realms.

[Sheepherder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1dPTAQ5_U

[Hutch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kov2G0GouBw#t=38s

(fake edit: I put a timestamp in the URL. If you're watching in F13's player, the bookmark is at 38 sec.)

[blackwulf]

I was trying to read some of his "foundational principles" and I'm just kind of  in awe that someone trying to raise millions of dollars would put so much really bad writing out on the company website.  I understand if he can't afford an editor yet, but doesn't he have a friend or family member with some kind of degree in English/journalism/creative writing?  I mean, seriously, I head to reread several of his paragraphs twice to make sense of them.

I do like some of his ideas, but others just sound like a rambling discussion you might have with a fellow MMO player after a few beers.  You know - trying to figure what you liked about old games and what's wrong with current ones.  Not really inspiring the donation of my dollars...

[Numtini]

Reading that caught me between outright laughter and pity that it seems like a sad pathetic attempt to recapture past glories.

I think the pity part is winning out. The whole thing is just sad.

[luckton]

Lemme see if I can nutshell this.

Mark Jacobs is to Camelot Unchained as Brad McQuaid is to Vanguard.

Mark Jacobs "Foundational Principles" is akin to Brad McQuiad's "Vision"

What could possibly go fucking wrong?

[Draegan]

Brad didn't have kickstarter though!

[luckton]

Kickstarter or not, we've already seen what happens when one of "the greats" goes and tries to reinvent the goddamned wheel using their traditional way of thinking and applying it to next-gen hardware, support and the market in general.  It wasn't pretty.   What's going to stop history from repeating itself?

[Nebu]

Being fair here, WAR was an improvement over DAoC.  If he could make another incremental improvement over WAR, that would be worth a month of my time.  My fear is that the next step is going to be backwards. 

[Paelos]

Being fair here, WAR was an improvement over DAoC.  If he could make another incremental improvement over WAR, that would be worth a month of my time.  My fear is that the next step is going to be backwards. 

Meaningful choices and RPS? My fear is that he the step backwards is a quantum leap.

[Hutch]

[HaemishM]

Brad didn't have kickstarter though!

Kickstarter won't pay for Oxy.

[UnSub]

The reward tiers are out.

Presented without comment - at the $10k level:

Best of all, pledge owner receives INVITATION TO COME HANG OUT WITH CITY STATE ENTERTAINMENT in beautiful downtown Fairfax, Virginia for 3 days including the Camelot Unchained launch party. You must provide your own transportation to our office, but once here, we will pay for your room at a nearby hotel (you are responsible for your own hotel expenses and you must have a valid credit card), transportation to and from the hotel on a daily basis, all of your meals with the team (unless you go off on your own), special email access to the development team, special credit within the game, the manual and anywhere else we have our credits, and on the final day you get to say the magical words “AOT DEKCUS” and throw your choice of fruit pies at Mark Jacobs during your visit (recorded for posterity of course).

[Lt.Dan]

Is it possible to use Kickstarter to raise money for another Kickstarter project? Someone needs to throw a pie at Mark Jacobs because AOT DEKCUS.

[UnSub]

Is it possible to use Kickstarter to raise money for another Kickstarter project? Someone needs to throw a pie at Mark Jacobs because AOT DEKCUS.

We'll call it performance art and one of our stretch goals will fund the egging of Paul Barnett.