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Sjofn
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Reply #35 on: February 05, 2013, 05:07:21 PM

Anyone who liked the interrupt system in DAoC is crazy, I am sorry. So many balance issues connected to that stupid fucking mechanic.

God Save the Horn Players
UnSub
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Reply #36 on: February 05, 2013, 05:48:42 PM

From the CU site:

Quote
In a few hours, I will post the first of many “Foundational Principles” developer blogs that will detail my vision for this game. It is entitled; “Be careful what you wish for!”

Indeed.

From the Massively article:

Quote
The total budget will be over $10 million, of which we need about half to launch the game.

So, will CU be going for something like a $US5m Kickstarter (or even US$1m+)? I think Jacobs over-estimates how interested people are in DAOC RvR that's a long way away. Or maybe I underestimate player naivety.

Also, didn't Mythic trademark "realm versus realm" to stop other companies using it? Why yes, yes they did.

Finally: sub-based = pretty high chance of failure. Because if CU isn't fantastic at the sub price, you can go off an play something good enough for free.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:51:24 PM by UnSub »

Segoris
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Reply #37 on: February 05, 2013, 05:55:06 PM

Feel free to disagree with me.  What's with the insults?
If I remember from every other DAoC discussion that has gone on here, he's probably still bitchy about thanes and just taking it out on you. But hey, at least there is no rehashed debate about what number of realms for the best RvR in this thread...yet why so serious?

Assist trains worked just fine against people who could fully function as well and not just casters. For example - sometimes it was best to drop a det tank first, who did not suffer from having to worry about cast interruptions. Removing the /assist key won't do much now due to voice chat being even more used now compared to back when teamspeak and ventrillo were first coming out. It would still be beneficial, no doubt about it, since the ability to disguise oneself as a different class was huge (Firbolg heros using smaller shields to look just like their group druid for example) and would only make it take slightly longer to call a target but for my time spent as a main assist that was the only challenge I ever had while trying to call targets when first moving to voice chat.
/Face, while it was a crutch for keyboard turners, was also great for smart casters who wanted to keep line of sight, so it did have its good uses as well. Though /face would be pointless in today's games with autofacing and more lax line of sight checks being the norm.
The interrupt system was undeniably more difficult to be good with compared to today's games, but it was fine if people, you know, were coordinated and worked well together in a team game shocked. As stated previously it did require smart positioning from players when going into a battle.
As for living longer, that was never an issue most of the time for good groups facing each other on even terms, and there were plenty of long lasting fights. Yes there were plenty of steamrolls when outmatched/outmatching, the worst ones were actually at the hands of casters (pbae bomb groups). For the most part short fights were usually the result of outmatching or being outmatched or one team not having any RAs up as they just finished a fight and are getting in another fight right away.

Assist trains were potent because a character being hit by someone couldn't function. If a healer could heal through being attacked assist trains would have been much less useful, an active interrupt system would have meant spreading people out against targets, which means more people live longer in a fight, which is just generally a plus. /stick in particular also tends to make melee a little more viable which is often a problem in these games.

The thing I like about /stick and /face is it slows down the twitchy aspect of things and you get a more strategic pace in your combat. I'm not interested in testing the skills that removing them tests - bunny hopping, circle strafing, etc., all that stuff is lame IMO.

So, serious question, were all of you zergers or something? Not just Ingmar and his crew, I'm only quoting him because everything in that post (and the last ten+ posts, and just about every other conversation when pvp of any kind comes up on these boards) makes it sound like that was the case. That would make quite a bit of sense why there's a lot of difference of opinion. It sounds like a bunch of RR2s in merchant gear wandering around complaining about mechanics when you lost to the the RR8+ group in custom gear as you roam Emain with only a single healer character, on caster speed, and no CC, purges, det, etc. I'm not saying DAoC was perfect, but besides some class balances for hybrids I was perfectly happy before ToA. It had a slightly higher barrier of entry, but there was a firm ceiling to how much gear could give an advantage and it was obtainable by anyone.

All that said, and as much fun as I had, I don't think pre-ToA DAoC would work today. The big money is in making the zergy sheep happy as possible (good luck accomplishing that, there's always something for them to bitch about). Even if everything was moved to server-side checks, even if all CC was removed, and even if the assist trains were removed and the interrupt systems were dumbed down to cater to the lowest common denominator, today's players just don't put up with game systems which require teamwork, strategy, build planning, etc. DAoC was a competitive game for the many who truly excelled in it, and it was not friendly to casual players and/or many people with schedules which did not permit many hours to play.

Random thought - while it would mean less server persistence, an ELO system could be sweet if implemented somehow

« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:58:00 PM by Segoris »
Nebu
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Reply #38 on: February 05, 2013, 05:58:03 PM

Apparently they forgot about MOC for casters.  It was a nice strategic ability that dealt with interrupts when you had melee on you or got in a bad situation.  Remember Sorcs when ToA came out?  MoC + SoI + LT for the win.  Kill 8 people at a time.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Segoris
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Reply #39 on: February 05, 2013, 06:02:50 PM

please hire PB please
He is nothing without Paul Barnett, I hope they merge to form greatness again!

That would awful in the best of ways.

Or maybe I underestimate player naivety.
Plenty of people want DAoC again, not many would pay for it now though. RMT would be needed imo. If they did it some weapon glows, armor dye unlocks, xp potions, etc for real cash it could be sustainable. Maybe they could even go old school ala The Realm with a $4.95 sub and then add in some light RMT hybrid.

Apparently they forgot about MOC for casters.  It was a nice strategic ability that dealt with interrupts when you had melee on you or got in a bad situation.  Remember Sorcs when ToA came out?  MoC + SoI + LT for the win.  Kill 8 people at a time.
Yeah, MOC was huge. Also, people always forget about how important guard was. It's like most never played with a shield tank.
Sjofn
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Reply #40 on: February 05, 2013, 06:14:19 PM

Feel free to disagree with me.  What's with the insults?
If I remember from every other DAoC discussion that has gone on here, he's probably still bitchy about thanes and just taking it out on you. But hey, at least there is no rehashed debate about what number of realms for the best RvR in this thread...yet why so serious?

Ingmar was the thane, not Fordel. Fordel was a stinky furbolg hero.

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Segoris
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Reply #41 on: February 05, 2013, 06:15:57 PM

Shit, thanks. I'll have to update my stalking notes! Though, if he was a firbie hero, I don't see what he has to complain about why so serious?
Sjofn
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Reply #42 on: February 05, 2013, 06:16:39 PM

Apparently they forgot about MOC for casters.  It was a nice strategic ability that dealt with interrupts when you had melee on you or got in a bad situation.  Remember Sorcs when ToA came out?  MoC + SoI + LT for the win.  Kill 8 people at a time.

I did not forget. I did say, "So many balance issues connected to that stupid fucking mechanic."


EDIT: Quoted myself PROPERLY, I had the "stupid fucking" in the wrong place.  why so serious?

God Save the Horn Players
Nevermore
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Reply #43 on: February 05, 2013, 06:29:50 PM

Feel free to disagree with me.  What's with the insults?
If I remember from every other DAoC discussion that has gone on here, he's probably still bitchy about thanes and just taking it out on you. But hey, at least there is no rehashed debate about what number of realms for the best RvR in this thread...yet why so serious?

Nah, that's Ingmar.  Fordel was a Hibtard. :P

PS: As far as this bit of vaporware goes, I'll just continue my stance of pointedly never giving a dime to any game with Jacobs' name attached to it.

Over and out.
Sjofn
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Reply #44 on: February 05, 2013, 06:38:39 PM

Also, a reminder: Midgard "zergs" on Igraine were ~10 people. So no, I am pretty sure I was not a zerger. I totally would've been if given the chance, though, I found 8v8 goddamn boring (I vastly prefered keep sieges) and I got sick of hearing them cry when they got "zerged" by another realm actually daring to move in a group bigger than 8 and not giving a fuck if the enemies they saw were only there to farm RPs instead of actually attack their realm (especially when they were Mids, because seriously, 8 people COULD be a keep attack force if it was Mids. :P).

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Segoris
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Reply #45 on: February 05, 2013, 06:47:58 PM

Nah, that's Ingmar.  Fordel was a Hibtard. :P

PS: As far as this bit of vaporware goes, I'll just continue my stance of pointedly never giving a dime to any game with Jacobs' name attached to it.

Understandable. I can't say for sure either way. I wouldn't buy some $50 box or pay a sub of $10 or more, but I'd be open to the idea of MJ making something aimed at a smaller crowd that is not trying to serve corporate overlords or take on WoW.

Also, a reminder: Midgard "zergs" on Igraine were ~10 people. So no, I am pretty sure I was not a zerger. I totally would've been if given the chance, though, I found 8v8 goddamn boring (I vastly prefered keep sieges) and I got sick of hearing them cry when they got "zerged" by another realm actually daring to move in a group bigger than 8 and not giving a fuck if the enemies they saw were only there to farm RPs instead of actually attack their realm (especially when they were Mids, because seriously, 8 people COULD be a keep attack force if it was Mids. :P).

Yeah, I think the "zergs" for mid on Bedevere were 10-11 people as well, but when needed the 8mans would get their shit together and tear it up before returning to our regularly scheduled farming program. It really was down there as lowest/next to lowest pop servers but you wouldn't be able to tell based on organization between premades.
Ingmar
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Reply #46 on: February 05, 2013, 06:57:25 PM

IMO the MoC/kill 8 people! thing is a really good illustration of why the interrupt system was so bad. Because casters were so useless if someone was hitting them, their abilities had to be beefed up to the point of being dangerously overpowered when they *did* work. (And that's not even getting into gating stuff like MoC behind a bunch of RP grind.)

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Segoris
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Reply #47 on: February 05, 2013, 07:01:30 PM

IMO MOC was a fallback tool on a long cooldown. If someone/group was only able to kill people when MOC was up, the problem is not with MOC and/or the interrupt system, it was with the players relying on it and thinking they were useless until it was up again.
Fordel
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Reply #48 on: February 05, 2013, 07:10:56 PM

Shit, thanks. I'll have to update my stalking notes! Though, if he was a firbie hero, I don't see what he has to complain about why so serious?


Bad Mechanics are Bad. It's really not that hard to figure out. Casters either did NO damage, or they did ALL the damage (or possibly still NO damage depending on which era of resist stacking we are in). It was a fucking Binary system that made for awful, awful gameplay.

Bitch about needing less CC, but keep the interrupt mechanic that basically kept casters constantly CC'd.  swamp poop





and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Segoris
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Reply #49 on: February 05, 2013, 08:16:02 PM

Bad Mechanics are Bad. It's really not that hard to figure out. Casters either did NO damage, or they did ALL the damage (or possibly still NO damage depending on which era of resist stacking we are in). It was a fucking Binary system that made for awful, awful gameplay.

Bitch about needing less CC, but keep the interrupt mechanic that basically kept casters constantly CC'd.  swamp poop

Since I never said anything about needing less CC, I'm guessing the part about bitching about less CC was aimed at Nebu?

As for the first part - true, for casters/groups that were not that good, adaptive, or coordinated. I guess it really is that hard to figure out for some.  swamp poop
rk47
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Reply #50 on: February 05, 2013, 08:18:53 PM

MMO devs need to take a step back and look at the damn market before shooting off another project.
Just how many subbed MMOs are people willing to pay for at the moment.
So stupid of these guys to keep diving in and flushing cash down the toilet.

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Nebu
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Reply #51 on: February 05, 2013, 08:26:04 PM

I played casters in DAoC for nearly 5 years and had very few issues with interrupts.  Placement, knowing your range limits, and moving constantly while panning were key.  I found playing melee far more frustrating with all of the snares and stuns in game.

Yes, DAoC had some severe mechanics flaws, but I still found the system far preferable to many since.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #52 on: February 05, 2013, 08:45:22 PM

Ohhh, sweet Lucifer's fiddle, I had to listen to this conversation twice a week for the entirety that my friends played DAoC.

Let's be real folks, this is never getting made.

-Rasix
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Reply #53 on: February 05, 2013, 09:32:28 PM

I played casters in DAoC for nearly 5 years and had very few issues with interrupts.  Placement, knowing your range limits, and moving constantly while panning were key.  I found playing melee far more frustrating with all of the snares and stuns in game.

Yes, DAoC had some severe mechanics flaws, but I still found the system far preferable to many since.

What was your main?  I'm going to guess an Enchanter.

Over and out.
Nebu
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Reply #54 on: February 05, 2013, 09:39:07 PM

What was your main?  I'm going to guess an Enchanter.

For the most part, enchanters had no real role in an 8v8.  I would have liked to try one though.  I played runemaster, shaman, healer, and theurgist mostly but also had a scout, ranger, hunter, blademaster, valkyrie, friar, skald, vampyre, and valewalker over RR7.  Once I figured out theurgist, that class was pretty ridiculously overpowered.  Especially with the range advantage that Albion got.  You could extend people like crazy and kill large numbers with a small force.  Still preferred mid though.  I loved playing that realm.  A good pac healer could really make things happen.  

Keep in mind that 99% of my play was solo on a stealther or in 8v8.  My play was probably a different experience from most people as we has a pretty tight 8v8 group with scheduled times.  I'm sure my gaming life will never be like it was back then and my view of things now would be pretty different as a result.  Rose-colored glasses from playing in groups with some very good gamers and all that.  
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:04:36 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #55 on: February 05, 2013, 09:53:40 PM

I've never played DAOC, but what was it about the interrupt system that made it so stabby? Did every melee attack count as an interrupt / hard pushback on cast times or something?  why so serious?

Sjofn
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Reply #56 on: February 05, 2013, 10:00:00 PM

Basically, if anyone so much as sneezed at you, you had a three second lockout to deal with. There was a point during the game where unsheathing your weapon while you had someone targeted would interrupt them.

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Nebu
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Reply #57 on: February 05, 2013, 10:02:49 PM

If you were a caster there were many ways that you could have your cast time completely reset (worse than pushback).  This was to offset the distance that melee had to cover to close on a target.  The trade-off was that an uninterrupted caster did insane dps.  If you positioned well, kited, and used terrain, you could kill people insanely fast.  If they found you, you were toast in seconds.  It was the true example of a glass cannon in ways that were far harsher than mmo's since.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Nebu
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Reply #58 on: February 05, 2013, 10:05:25 PM

Ohhh, sweet Lucifer's fiddle, I had to listen to this conversation twice a week for the entirety that my friends played DAoC.

Let's be real folks, this is never getting made.

You didn't have to read this thread.  You knew what was going to be inside.  

I'm just excited about the possibility.  WoT is the only PvP game worth playing right now and I'd love to think about an alternative, particularly one with nostalgia attached.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Nevermore
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Reply #59 on: February 05, 2013, 10:07:27 PM

What was your main?  I'm going to guess an Enchanter.

Played runemaster, shaman, healer, and theurgist mostly but also had a scout, ranger, hunter, blademaster, valkyrie, friar, skald, vampyre, and valewalker over RR7.  Once I figured out theurgist, that class was pretty ridiculously overpowered.  Especially with the range advantage that Albion got.  You could extend people like crazy and kill large numbers with a small force.  Still preferred mid though.  I loved playing that realm.  A good pac healer could really make things happen.  

Keep in mind that 99% of my play was solo on a stealther or in 8v8.  My play was probably a different experience from most people as we has a pretty tight 8v8 group with scheduled times.  I'm sure my gaming life will never be like it was back then and my view of things now would be pretty different as a result.  Rose-colored glasses from playing in groups with some very good gamers and all that.  

Now I had a Theurgist alt too, and I agree it was incredibly fun..  in PvE (relative to the rest of the classes in DAoC PvE, of course  why so serious? ).  The reason I asked is I spent 99% of my time on my Minstrel or Ranger, both solo or grouped.  The only caster class that ever gave me trouble was a buffbotted Enchanter, and it was entirely because of the BS interrupt system.

Over and out.
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Reply #60 on: February 05, 2013, 10:07:52 PM

Yea, making every single attack do pummel/kick as a side effect sounds like ACK!. Those things have cooldowns in other games for a reason!

If there's an actual interrupt button the guy with the swords has to push at the right time, it's a lot more engaging -- it also opens up mind games like juking, casting different spells to draw out the interrupt, etc. Ditto with interrupt immunity auras (on a decent cooldown) requiring the guy with swords to use a CC ability if they want to get the caster interrupted.

Nevermore
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Reply #61 on: February 05, 2013, 10:10:50 PM

If you were a caster there were many ways that you could have your cast time completely reset (worse than pushback).  This was to offset the distance that melee had to cover to close on a target.  The trade-off was that an uninterrupted caster did insane dps.  If you positioned well, kited, and used terrain, you could kill people insanely fast.  If they found you, you were toast in seconds.  It was the true example of a glass cannon in ways that were far harsher than mmo's since.  

This is exactly why Fordel called it a binary system.  Casters had to blow people up insanely fast since they would be rendered completely useless (outside of one cooldown) if a melee got on them.  It's a very poor way to balance a game.

Over and out.
Fordel
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Reply #62 on: February 05, 2013, 10:17:10 PM

I really cannot stress how binary the system was Zetor. A Caster either did nothing at all, or they literally 3 shot you. Maybe it took 4 or 5 if you were a tanky type or had some kind of cooldown available. A caster could spend entire fights trying to find 3 seconds of space, then once they found that space they obliterated 1-3 people near instantly.


Like, the only things that ever compared in WoW were things like 3 min mages using stacking trinkets and shit. Except DaoC casters could do this at will if they were allowed to cast.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Nebu
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Reply #63 on: February 05, 2013, 10:17:38 PM

This is exactly why Fordel called it a binary system.  Casters had to blow people up insanely fast since they would be rendered completely useless (outside of one cooldown) if a melee got on them.  It's a very poor way to balance a game.

It created some interesting combat strategies though.  Groups had to start using dedicated 'peelers' to keep healers and casters free.  Groups had dedicated interrupters and buff shearers as well.  While it was a very flawed system, it made for years of group building, theorycrafting, and strategy sessions that kept me well entertained.

Yes, the game was flawed.  Overcoming the imperfections and competing against players dealing with the same limitations is what made the game so enjoyable.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:22:19 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Fordel
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Reply #64 on: February 05, 2013, 10:35:32 PM

None of those things remotely required the casting system to be as utterly retarded as it was (is I suppose, DaoC isn't technically dead yet is it). They all exist in every other MMO with group PvP.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Nebu
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Reply #65 on: February 05, 2013, 10:39:09 PM

None of those things remotely required the casting system to be as utterly retarded as it was (is I suppose, DaoC isn't technically dead yet is it). They all exist in every other MMO with group PvP.

I agree, but it's what we had to work with... so we did the best we could.  I liked the idea of the interrupt system far more than the implementation.  I just wasn't offered an alternative that I enjoyed as much at the time I was nose-deep in DAOC.

I spent more time and money on DAoC than any other MMO in my life.  I have a biased view.   
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:41:37 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Fordel
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Reply #66 on: February 05, 2013, 11:24:04 PM

Which is why you are a confirmed Dumbo!  tongue

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Nebu
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Reply #67 on: February 05, 2013, 11:34:10 PM

Which is why you are a confirmed Dumbo!  tongue

 Heartbreak

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
JRave
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Reply #68 on: February 06, 2013, 12:34:46 AM

Now I never played casters outside of PvE, but was it really that bad?  On my server (Tristan) all of the top 8man groups were caster based.  I remember shortly after clustering began some people from the other servers were shocked to see full groups of RR9+ casters running around.  Hell we even had a RR8+ alb stealth group.
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Reply #69 on: February 06, 2013, 12:57:26 AM

I really cannot stress how binary the system was Zetor. A Caster either did nothing at all, or they literally 3 shot you.

It wasn't unusual for a fire wizard to take me from full to dead in 2 nukes. Fully buffed, in a 99% spellcrafted suit.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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