Real ID comes to WoW

[Azazel]

I still don't get what this system is for. My real-life friends and relatives?

I think it's for making the WoW forums sit down and shut up. Turning it into a system is a distraction so the forum users spend their time arguing about what the system is for.

Yes, it's all and only about the forums. 

[Paelos]

When these decisions get made, just follow the money to the right place.

[Bzalthek]

That doesn't make sense, it's not black and white.

It makes perfect sense to me - from my reading of the thread, the majority of people objecting to risk were objecting to it in the context of un- or lightly- controlled release of information like Real ID and the forums change, not to releasing information in a controlled manner to a small number of people. Virtually no one objected to releasing personal information in a limited, controlled context like to individuals you've established a reasonable relationship with. So, the risk aversion demonstrated here was aversion only to a specific kind of reveal, not all relevations. By not posting under his name, it appears that he doesn't choose to engage in the sort of wide release of personal information that most people in this thread are averse to, which puts him in the same broad category.

Maybe you know something that I don't about the posters in this thread since I've just occasionally lurked here before now and don't pay that much attention to individuals, but I'm just responding based on what I've read here.

What the fuck is wrong with you?  Bad! Where's a fucking rolled up newspaper when you need one?

[Cadaverine]

Tried three times to get a parental control email sent, and at this time, still do not have one.  At this point it's less hassle for me to cancel my accounts, and my Starcraft preorder, than jump through whatever hoops they've put up to keep people opted in to something that should be off by default.

I just want to whack foozles, and run the occasional BG in peace.  I don't give a shit about social networking, or any of their other bullshit excuses for this RealID idiocy.

[Ingmar]

Pantastic: the post you were replying to was one I made after they had already backed out the forum change, and which had really nothing to do with that particular piece of the RealID discussion. But feel free to continue arguing about something I wasn't even talking about.

As far as why I keep using "Ingmar" here, I've actually thought about changing to the handle I use these days on most other forums, which is my real name (or most of it), I just haven't gotten around to bothering Trippy to change it. The only reason I'm Ingmar here is that my reading of these forums dates back to a time when I was using my DAOC character name as a handle simply for convenience. You can detect my vast concern that someone might know who I was from my posting of things directly from my flickr and youtube accounts, if you feel like digging through my post history.

He seems to think the only risk-adverse people in the thread were talking about real names being exposed without permission, and that the post he quotes is isolated completely from any context whatsoever, not part of a conversation about how information is casually shared on places like this board and guild lines, making Real ID almost an afterthought for the people most likely to go wiggy and stalkery: people you think you know.

Nope, you're wrong, what you've posted doesn't match the discussion that's been happening or what I think. If you or Ingmar want to discuss what I've said I'd be happy to engage in a conversation, but this passive-aggressive third person stuff really isn't going to produce anything interesting to anyone.

Sjofn is exactly right about the context I made that particular post in, as it happens.

EDIT: Anyway since this has now moved into the arguing-about-what-we-are-even-arguing-about stage, it is probably best to just move on.

[Azazel]

So, Righ/Signe -

Did you call them back?

[UnSub]

Two things I see here:

1) Yes, it is great to see a turn around on this issue, but this only applies as far as the Blizzard forums. Real ID is still a going concern, complete with full real names.

2) Activision Blizzard still apparently don't get the concern over the issue.

First off: Facebook as a business model. Zuckerberg doesn't get the concern about privacy because he's a socially awkward nerd at heart who hacked university servers in order to set up a Hot or Not website that became Facebook. He sees privacy as an unnecessary barrier to looking at hot girls (and now, his business).

At its heart, Facebook is about following friends and people you'd like to see naked. Blizzard titles are about multiplayer competition. It's the competition mindset that should mean Real ID is ultra-conservative about privacy - it's not necessary about being murdered by someone you meet online (although it happens), it's about all the other ways that knowing who someone is when you are competing for resources. If they are around where you live and you are of the mindset, perhaps a phone call or locker room meeting can get you some loot you couldn't (or won't) otherwise earn.

And then there are the issues of people setting up fake Real ID accounts to harass people with. If anything, Real ID doesn't help fix the community, it just shifts the problems to other channels.

Social networking is a pretty new thing and a lot of people are scrambling to make cash out of it. If Blizzard had launched an online gamer version - proxy nic, ties in to your other Activision Blizzard titles, strong personal protections and lots of functionality - it'd be a major success. They've got the in-built player base and the market power to drive players in certain directions. They've got the money to do what they usually do: look at what exists, polish it up and improve it. However, they've gone the worst route possible on Real ID.

And as for optional: I think it was Lum who said that if Real ID is going to be Blizzard's communications platform of choice, it means they don't have to build anything but basic in-game communications functions in any titles moving forward. Real ID can remain optional, but it won't be hard for that to become "optional, but if you actually want to talk to people you'll need to use it".

[Arthur_Parker]

That doesn't make sense, it's not black and white.

It makes perfect sense to me - from my reading of the thread, the majority of people objecting to risk were objecting to it in the context of un- or lightly- controlled release of information like Real ID and the forums change, not to releasing information in a controlled manner to a small number of people. Virtually no one objected to releasing personal information in a limited, controlled context like to individuals you've established a reasonable relationship with. So, the risk aversion demonstrated here was aversion only to a specific kind of reveal, not all relevations. By not posting under his name, it appears that he doesn't choose to engage in the sort of wide release of personal information that most people in this thread are averse to, which puts him in the same broad category.

Maybe you know something that I don't about the posters in this thread since I've just occasionally lurked here before now and don't pay that much attention to individuals, but I'm just responding based on what I've read here.

What the fuck is wrong with you?  Bad! Where's a fucking rolled up newspaper when you need one?

It's ironic given the subject but I believe it's because he thinks he is anonymous and can therefore be argumentative for no apparent reason.  I don't think anyone mentioned it yet, but being argumentative (or just being disbelieving of the risks involved) increases the chances of someone taking the time to track you down and probably puts you more at risk of someone messing with you, than just being slightly carefree with your real identity.  As Sheepherder's example should illustrate.  

[Lantyssa]

As far as why I keep using "Ingmar" here, I've actually thought about changing to the handle I use these days on most other forums, which is my real name (or most of it), I just haven't gotten around to bothering Trippy to change it. The only reason I'm Ingmar here is that my reading of these forums dates back to a time when I was using my DAOC character name as a handle simply for convenience. You can detect my vast concern that someone might know who I was from my posting of things directly from my flickr and youtube accounts, if you feel like digging through my post history.

We've got like a billion people here that share your first name.  It'll get confusing.

That's the other odd thing about Blizzard's plan.  For people like me, a name provides an instant way to track me down.  For a more common name, you might end up with John Doe talking to John Doe with a peanut gallery of John Does.  A unique identifier keeps you, well, unique while providing one layer of abstraction to satisfy privacy concerns.

The main problem with their existing system is you can be any character on your account, and since you have fifty character slots, it's easy to be any name you want.

[Modern Angel]

Two things I see here:

1) Yes, it is great to see a turn around on this issue, but this only applies as far as the Blizzard forums. Real ID is still a going concern, complete with full real names.

2) Activision Blizzard still apparently don't get the concern over the issue.

First off: Facebook as a business model. Zuckerberg doesn't get the concern about privacy because he's a socially awkward nerd at heart who hacked university servers in order to set up a Hot or Not website that became Facebook. He sees privacy as an unnecessary barrier to looking at hot girls (and now, his business).

At its heart, Facebook is about following friends and people you'd like to see naked. Blizzard titles are about multiplayer competition. It's the competition mindset that should mean Real ID is ultra-conservative about privacy - it's not necessary about being murdered by someone you meet online (although it happens), it's about all the other ways that knowing who someone is when you are competing for resources. If they are around where you live and you are of the mindset, perhaps a phone call or locker room meeting can get you some loot you couldn't (or won't) otherwise earn.

And then there are the issues of people setting up fake Real ID accounts to harass people with. If anything, Real ID doesn't help fix the community, it just shifts the problems to other channels.

Social networking is a pretty new thing and a lot of people are scrambling to make cash out of it. If Blizzard had launched an online gamer version - proxy nic, ties in to your other Activision Blizzard titles, strong personal protections and lots of functionality - it'd be a major success. They've got the in-built player base and the market power to drive players in certain directions. They've got the money to do what they usually do: look at what exists, polish it up and improve it. However, they've gone the worst route possible on Real ID.

And as for optional: I think it was Lum who said that if Real ID is going to be Blizzard's communications platform of choice, it means they don't have to build anything but basic in-game communications functions in any titles moving forward. Real ID can remain optional, but it won't be hard for that to become "optional, but if you actually want to talk to people you'll need to use it".

This is the best post-mortem. Anyone going "OH NEAT I can resub now that the forums I never used are safe!" missed the point. RealID is still there and, to boot, is still being expanded.

[UnSub]

I'm pretty sure you're okay by this point.

Great! I'll organise my psych to get me a day pass and how about we all meet at the abandoned abattoir that's off the interstate. No-one will disturb us all there.

No-one.

 

[Azazel]

Grunk, anyone? 

[Lantyssa]

I'm pretty sure you're okay by this point.

Great! I'll organise my psych to get me a day pass and how about we all meet at the abandoned abattoir that's off the interstate. No-one will disturb us all there.

No-one.

 

Funny.  Except I know of a large network of people who seem to have not been abducted by them despite meeting in person, including Non.  Though maybe they've taken over all their identities and multi-box with proxies all day in some elaborate ruse to lure me into their trap...

[kildorn]

I'm pretty sure you're okay by this point.

Great! I'll organise my psych to get me a day pass and how about we all meet at the abandoned abattoir that's off the interstate. No-one will disturb us all there.

No-one.

 

Funny.  Except I know of a large network of people who seem to have not been abducted by them despite meeting in person, including Non.  Though maybe they've taken over all their identities and multi-box with proxies all day in some elaborate ruse to lure me into their trap...

Skin suit doubles. It's a plot by Ingmar to create a guild who specs the way he wants them to.

[Outlawedprod]

Clearly Acti-Blizz needs the social gamer to compete.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/07/10/google-secretly-invested-100-million-in-zynga-preparing-to-launch-google-games/

If that report is true then the amount of capital Zynga has is truly nuts.  May god have mercy upon our souls.

[Lantyssa]

Skin suit doubles. It's a plot by Ingmar to create a guild who specs the way he wants them to.

With my crazy specs it's no wonder I'm a priority target.  If you ever catch me raiding, you know they've gotten to me.  Tell my parents I love them.

[Arthur_Parker]

Hello,

Thank you for your email. If you would like us to proceed to the permanent deletion of your World of Warcraft account, please send us a cover letter by postal mail at the following address:

Blizzard Entertainment Europe
Billing Support
TSA 60 001
78143 Velizy Villacoublay Cedex
France

The cover letter will have to include confirmation of your deletion request along with:
- Your account name
- Your full real name
- Your full address including postal or zip code
- Your full email address (currently registered on the account)- The authentication key used to create the account
- Your secret question and answer
- A legible scan or photo of a piece of government-issued photo identification, such as a passport or driving license matching the first and last name of the registered account owner

Once the details have been received, we should be able to process your account deletion request.

I suspect the chances of my posting some government-issued photo identification to France are fairly low.

[Pennilenko]

I suspect the chances of my posting some government-issued photo identification to France are fairly low.

I decided not to bother with all that. I just told the BBB that they are refusing to permanently delete my private information  after cancellation.

[Kail]

I suspect the chances of my posting some government-issued photo identification to France are fairly low.

The whole requirement is weird.  Making an actual physical counterfeit passport is kind of difficult, sure.  Counterfeitting a scan of a passport takes like two minutes, though.

[tmp]

I suspect the chances of my posting some government-issued photo identification to France are fairly low.

The whole requirement is weird.  Making an actual physical counterfeit passport is kind of difficult, sure.  Counterfeitting a scan of a passport takes like two minutes, though.

It's probably effective at making 9 out of 10 people go "ah fuck, i'm not going to bother".

[caladein]

Going at it from the other direction, is there another way they could go about "Delete my information forever."?

The only thing I can think of is allowing you to fax the letter instead of mailing it, but I don't know the legal status of faxed documents outside the United States.

[Azazel]

I'd think that requiring you to send the paperwork to France is a little odd. Vivendi or not. I can't see why US residents couldn't do similar to a US address to confirm that yes indeed, you are really you. Requiring that you send all this to France just smacks of making it intentionally and unnecessarily more difficult.

[caladein]

Well, I assumed it was for a European WoW account since Arthur's British (?).

If a US account requires me sending a letter to France, then yeah, that's of a high order.

[Arthur_Parker]

Well, I assumed it was for a European WoW account since Arthur's British (?).

Yeah, it's an EU account.  I'm querying it with them, there might be other avenues to explore, interesting that they sent me the real id statement, even though I haven't even mentioned real id.

[UnSub]

Hello,

Thank you for your email. If you would like us to proceed to the permanent deletion of your World of Warcraft account, please send us a cover letter by postal mail at the following address:

Blizzard Entertainment Europe
Billing Support
TSA 60 001
78143 Velizy Villacoublay Cedex
France

The cover letter will have to include confirmation of your deletion request along with:
- Your account name
- Your full real name
- Your full address including postal or zip code
- Your full email address (currently registered on the account)- The authentication key used to create the account
- Your secret question and answer
- A legible scan or photo of a piece of government-issued photo identification, such as a passport or driving license matching the first and last name of the registered account owner

Once the details have been received, we should be able to process your account deletion request.

I suspect the chances of my posting some government-issued photo identification to France are fairly low.

Why is it easier for me to quit my job than remove my info from Blizzard's hands?

Also, why is Blizzard asking you send the exact same info that could be used to hijack your Blizzard account in written form? Again, I could cancel my credit card and it would be less hassle. Man, does Blizzard ever suck at customer service.

[Azazel]

Well, I assumed it was for a European WoW account since Arthur's British (?).

Yeah, it's an EU account.  I'm querying it with them, there might be other avenues to explore, interesting that they sent me the real id statement, even though I haven't even mentioned real id.

Ah, sorry. Didn't realise you were outside the US. Which realID statement?

Why is it easier for me to quit my job than remove my info from Blizzard's hands?

Also, why is Blizzard asking you send the exact same info that could be used to hijack your Blizzard account in written form? Again, I could cancel my credit card and it would be less hassle. Man, does Blizzard ever suck at customer service.

Well, in many ways it'd be "easier" for me to quit my job with a phone call than to go down the shops to buy some milk, so I'm not quite sure what your meaning is. As to why - apparently Blizz is seeing how quickly they can destroy the huge bank of goodwill that gamers hold towards them which was built up over many years. For imaginary Facebook money.

hm..
I wonder if you're automatically opted-in to RealID even if you're not subscribed to World of Warcraft? Will my real name show up on friends' lists and friends of friends' lists despite not having played in almost 2 years? We do have battle.net accounts for D2.

edit - sent them an email. We'll see what they say.

[Arthur_Parker]

Ah, sorry. Didn't realise you were outside the US. Which realID statement?

The fifth principle of the uk data protection act is that data is "Not kept for longer than is necessary", which would seem to apply considering I haven't used the account since 2005.  Also sending me the real id statement unprompted was a bit silly because they basically admitted it's relevant to a 5 year dead account.

[Stabs]

Why is it easier for me to quit my job than remove my info from Blizzard's hands?

Because your info is an asset from which they hope to make money.

I complained too. I asked them to remove my personal information. They sent me back a form email stating that they've decided not to go ahead with RealID for the forums.

That isn't what I asked for, I asked for deletion, a request with which they are legally obliged to comply. Next stop complaint to the Information Commission.

They are in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights in several aspects of their privacy policy. They've probably always been in breach but no one cared. Now that people care, even if we're a minority, operating in Europe is about to become more difficult and more expensive.

Edit: had to add this, from Matticus:

[WindupAtheist]

The fifth principle of the uk data protection act is that data is "Not kept for longer than is necessary", which would seem to apply considering I haven't used the account since 2005.  Also sending me the real id statement unprompted was a bit silly because they basically admitted it's relevant to a 5 year dead account.

The fact that they're attaching that message to all account deletion requests by default seals it for me. They didn't make this sudden change of plans because Kotick's wife was getting obscene phone calls from forum trolls named Penisfart or something. They made it because enough people were actually cancelling/deleting/whatever to strike a little fear into Blizzard.

I'm pleasantly surprised.

[Ironwood]

Indeed.

My suprise, however, isn't all that large.  This is one that cuts both ways :  The Dicks don't want it because they'd stop being dicks and the decent people don't want it because it's a vile, vile violation that they believe WON'T remove the dicks.

[Arthur_Parker]

Thanks for the reply, I'd be grateful if you could escalate this request internally as providing more personal information to yourselves does seems to go against the spirit of the request, not to mention my understanding of logic and common sense.

As I reserve the right to make comment on this exchange with yourselves in a written form, I'd also be grateful for any official statement on why the extra requirements you have listed are not detailed on http://eu.blizzard.com/en-gb/company/about/privacy.html

Thank you for your email. Unfortunately this information is required to completely remove an account, if you are not able to provide or willing to do so we can not assist you further in this matter. Please also note that you can disable the Real ID feature ingame under the Interface options.

If you have any further questions don't hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards,

Blizzard Entertainment Europe
Andreas M.
Customer Support

Note a couple of things, at no point have I mentioned Real ID in any way.  Also despite asking for the request to be escalated, I've yet to receive a reply from anyone at Blizzard who appears willing to give their full name.

Now threatened them with a complaint to http://www.ico.gov.uk/ , I'm fully expecting the next refusal to be even shorter.  Fuck em, I was only messing with them to start with, now I will complain just to waste even more of their time.

[Paelos]

This is getting ridiculous on many levels. To get rid of information you have to send more information than you originally sent to set up the account? What?

We're not launching nuclear missles here. We shouldn't have to turn our keys at the same time just to fully delete an account.

[Musashi]

Fuck em, I was only messing with them to start with, now I will complain just to waste even more of their time.

I am entertained by these proceedings.  Carry on, sir.

[Stabs]

He sees privacy as an unnecessary barrier to looking at hot girls (and now, his business).

This delightful piece of cynicism inspired me to try my hand at parody:

http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/07/nakedid.html

[Bzalthek]

I wouldn't go pissing in yer boss's coffee anytime soon, just sayin'