Twilight: New Moon

[Sjofn]

The real life angle is the huge number of teachers that go on to have relationships with former students.

Yeah well, I find that creepy too. And at least those teachers are not there FROM BIRTH hanging around waiting for you to get old enough to fuck.

[NowhereMan]

Time travel stories it's a little weird but really the time-traveller has fallen in love with their future (adult) self. It's not hard to say they're not really in love with the 7 year old they bump into back in time but they do recognise that this is the person they're going to fall in love with, I guess in the way if you find a very early draft of a novel you love you really enjoy seeing the rough outlines of all the ideas that made you love it. It's not the book you love but you can see where it's going to become that and that makes you love it too though not in the same way.

I'd say on the prophesied love type situations it's also usually a case of people not really knowing each other even if they believe they're destined to fall in love, they just think it's going to happen. The werewolf imprinting thing (what I've read of it) is kind of creepy because you're trying to argue they've got the exact same love for the person they're just expressing it in different ways. If you've got the sort of idea of love (that I thought was pretty common in western culture) the Greeks had with all different sorts then that just doesn't make much sense. You can't be a father/older brother figure to someone then change into a friend when they hit their teens and then become a love when they're 18 and it be the exact same love you always felt and it not be fucking weird and really fucking creepy. The reincarnation falling in love thing is kind of creepy too though I don't know if many authors go for the angle of, "Oh my love is dead. Fortunately I know she has been reincarnated and is presently in the body of a 3 year old in the next village. I shall go and announce my love and hang around her until she's of age." When you throw in either memories on both sides of previous lives or just both totally unaware of fate then those stories don't seem nearly as weird and creepy.

Then again reading the site WUA linked to (which has given me far too great a knowledge of Twilight but it's nicely condensed 'too awful to stop' reading) Twilight's author generally seems to have a really creepy view of how love should be or at least manages to do some of the accepted romantic tropes to such a ridiculous degree that they are clearly creepy.

[Der Helm]

I kind of watched Twilight today, thank God that VLC has the ability to speed up the movie so much, that you can't really understand the dialogue anymore.

Sparkling vampires ? What the ... / /

[Johny Cee]

Time travel stories it's a little weird but really the time-traveller has fallen in love with their future (adult) self. It's not hard to say they're not really in love with the 7 year old they bump into back in time but they do recognise that this is the person they're going to fall in love with, I guess in the way if you find a very early draft of a novel you love you really enjoy seeing the rough outlines of all the ideas that made you love it. It's not the book you love but you can see where it's going to become that and that makes you love it too though not in the same way.

I'd say on the prophesied love type situations it's also usually a case of people not really knowing each other even if they believe they're destined to fall in love, they just think it's going to happen. The werewolf imprinting thing (what I've read of it) is kind of creepy because you're trying to argue they've got the exact same love for the person they're just expressing it in different ways. If you've got the sort of idea of love (that I thought was pretty common in western culture) the Greeks had with all different sorts then that just doesn't make much sense. You can't be a father/older brother figure to someone then change into a friend when they hit their teens and then become a love when they're 18 and it be the exact same love you always felt and it not be fucking weird and really fucking creepy. The reincarnation falling in love thing is kind of creepy too though I don't know if many authors go for the angle of, "Oh my love is dead. Fortunately I know she has been reincarnated and is presently in the body of a 3 year old in the next village. I shall go and announce my love and hang around her until she's of age." When you throw in either memories on both sides of previous lives or just both totally unaware of fate then those stories don't seem nearly as weird and creepy.

Then again reading the site WUA linked to (which has given me far too great a knowledge of Twilight but it's nicely condensed 'too awful to stop' reading) Twilight's author generally seems to have a really creepy view of how love should be or at least manages to do some of the accepted romantic tropes to such a ridiculous degree that they are clearly creepy.

I'm not arguing it's a healthy expression of intimacy.  It is a common female sexual hangup, though, and Meyer seems to be brilliant at tickling all those creepy and deep-seated adolscent female sexual fantasies.  The "violent/hyper-agressive/jealous man who really loves you" bit is just a tweaked up version of the cheerleader and the sports meat-head....  and the basis for more than a few Lifetime movies.

It's as crass as the portrayal of women in male wish-fulfillment action movies.  At their best, most times it's a helpless damsel in distress who rewards the hero for his prowess in combat by sleeping with him....  at worst, you have the man overcoming the woman in combat and then she realizes she loves him...  or James "Date Rape" Bond.  That all plays to male adolscent hangups relating to sexual dominance.


Obviously, Meyers can't be too far out of the norm as she is wildly popular with teens and older women from a variety of backgrounds.

[NowhereMan]

Honestly the way that site presents it (and I'm aware she's probably cherry-picking slightly in terms of her own perspective) but nearly every love story in this book takes classic symbols of romance and just goes so far it's really creepy. I think it's probably less intentional for the most part and more, "Normal love can be signified by thinking about your beloved and maybe writing poems and always wanting to be with them. If this is epic love then he should actually always be with her," which she just didn't quite realise was stalking. Since he loved her so much it doesn't count. Seriously this book really is fucked up relationship wise, which I don't think I appreciated until actually finding out what happens in detail.

That said I'm not going to fear that it's about to turn a generation of girls into abused women who constantly go after men that treat them like crap/never manage to have a real relationship because it won't meet expectations.

[Sheepherder]

Robert Jordan is a borderline creeper too sometimes.

[Numtini]

The best stuff I saw on the entire thing was a series of Livejournal posts that go into all the Mormon stuff. Yes, it's just Mormon abstinence porn.

And my favorite feminist answer back, that shows off exactly how creepy the whole male/female attitudes of the series are: And then Buffy staked Edward. The End.

[lamaros]

The best stuff I saw on the entire thing was a series of Livejournal posts that go into all the Mormon stuff. Yes, it's just Mormon abstinence porn.

And my favorite feminist answer back, that shows off exactly how creepy the whole male/female attitudes of the series are: And then Buffy staked Edward. The End.

Excellent video!

[Johny Cee]

Robert Jordan is a borderline creeper too sometimes.

Jordan started out with an interesting theme of separate spheres of male-female power and dominance.  The later books really just devolved into male wishfulfillment and diminishing the circle of female power.  I wouldn't put him in the same ballpark as James Bond's "seduction" of Pussy Galore in Goldfinger, or even the Sleeping Beauty fable if you really look at it...  The only way the princess can be freed from the magical curse is inappropriate sexual contact?  And I'm assuming that it gets told as a kiss, but you know what was really meant.

Even that stuff is pretty tame compared to alot of things that are borderline best-sellers, or topics that were standard for the scifi/fantasy greats to write about decades ago.  



I propose that Morat, WUA and Haemish do a joint review/round table discussion of Anne Bishop's "Dark Jewels" trilogy, or Jacquiline Carey's "Kushiel" books.  One has magical cock-rings to keep males in line, and the other has a powerful female protagonist who's superpower is submissive S&M sex.

That thread would be EPIC.

[Johny Cee]

The best stuff I saw on the entire thing was a series of Livejournal posts that go into all the Mormon stuff. Yes, it's just Mormon abstinence porn.

And my favorite feminist answer back, that shows off exactly how creepy the whole male/female attitudes of the series are: And then Buffy staked Edward. The End.

Umm.  Buffy has the exact same relationship with Angel: 

He's a monster who tries hard to be good, because he loves Buffy so much.  If he's ever bad, and good girl Buffy has sex with him (because good girls don't have sex), he turns into the monster that will try to kill and eat her. 

And this is a series that has explicitly identified vampires feeding with rape.  (Premarital sex leads to rape.)

Not too mention that Buffy doesn't admit she has feelings for Spike until after he beats her up?  I can't remember now, but doesn't Spike do the old hold her down and kiss her routine?

Way to go Joss! 

[Riggswolfe]

I propose that Morat, WUA and Haemish do a joint review/round table discussion of Anne Bishop's "Dark Jewels" trilogy, or Jacquiline Carey's "Kushiel" books.  One has magical cock-rings to keep males in line, and the other has a powerful female protagonist who's superpower is submissive S&M sex.

That thread would be EPIC.

*writes those names down* Huh? What? Uhhh....just for research...

Umm.  Buffy has the exact same relationship with Angel: 

He's a monster who tries hard to be good, because he loves Buffy so much.  If he's ever bad, and good girl Buffy has sex with him (because good girls don't have sex), he turns into the monster that will try to kill and eat her. 

Uhhh...you're confusing Angel and Spike. Angel is good because of a curse and massive amounts of guilt. Something he gets teased about relentlessly by Spike and others. As for the Angel and Buffy sex issue it was a metaphor for typical teenage girl fears which I'm not sure is what you meant in your post above. It is very much a literal version of "I had sex with him and now's dumped me and turned into a jerk."

Not too mention that Buffy doesn't admit she has feelings for Spike until after he beats her up?  I can't remember now, but doesn't Spike do the old hold her down and kiss her routine?

Way to go Joss! 

Well, that's Season 6 stuff and they'd pretty much left some of the metaphors and such from earlier seasons behind. Buffy was pretty fucked up in that season though from the resurrection and being pulled out of Heaven. I'd argue that Buffy in earlier seasons would have just kicked his ass. That season's Buffy was in a bad place.

[Sjofn]

The best stuff I saw on the entire thing was a series of Livejournal posts that go into all the Mormon stuff. Yes, it's just Mormon abstinence porn.

And my favorite feminist answer back, that shows off exactly how creepy the whole male/female attitudes of the series are: And then Buffy staked Edward. The End.

OK, that live journal thing about the mormonism is cracking my shit up. My favorite so far is:

"HI THERE CREEPY AUTHOR WANTING TO BONE YOUR PROPHET. (I have no problem with bible slash, etc. Just... I don't think she knows she's doing it.)"

laaaaawl

[Sheepherder]

Jordan started out with an interesting theme of separate spheres of male-female power and dominance.  The later books really just devolved into male wishfulfillment and diminishing the circle of female power.

Birgitte is also a cougar.

[Margalis]

Johny Cee is ripping into Buffy and James Bond. This is awesome.

One of the reasons I can't hate on Twilight that much, even though it's obviously extremely lame, is that it really isn't much lamer than a bunch of stuff that we just accept because they are expressions of dominant male culture. James Bond is the perfect example of that, he's basically a serial killer who preys on women. I like how Alan Moore put it in his intro to Dark Knight Returns:

"we begin to see that the overriding factor in James Bond's psychological makeup is his utter hatred and contempt for women." it's always amazed me that a single woman on earth could stand to watch those movies.  Not only are they pure schlock but the type of wish fulfillment they represent is more than a little disturbing. Apparently the perfect life is sleeping with and then killing as many women as possible while taking time out to masturbate with cool gadgets.

I can't honestly say that sparkly 14-year-old super douche vampires is any worse.

Edit: As far as Whedon goes, his female characters strike me as obviously created by a dude to appeal to dudes. Buffy was conventionally hot, SMG was laughably bad in fight scenes (but it doesn't matter cause she's hot), and her entire character was defined by her angsty relationships with men. Compare that to say Xena, who looked like a genuine ass kicker and didn't spend half of each episode pouting about how the latest Vampire Cyborg forgot her birthday or some shit.

[Nerf]

 

[Velorath]

One of the reasons I can't hate on Twilight that much, even though it's obviously extremely lame, is that it really isn't much lamer than a bunch of stuff that we just accept because they are expressions of dominant male culture. James Bond is the perfect example of that, he's basically a serial killer who preys on women.

That might be an interesting point if James Bond fans were anywhere near as obsessive as Twilight fans.  I think that's the main reason anyone even takes notice of this Twilight shit.  It has nothing to do with dominant male culture and everything to do with the "what the fuck is wrong with kids today" mentality.  It's probably more similar to how older people felt when everyone was going crazy over the original Star Wars trilogy.  "Wait, those two who just kissed are actually brother and sister?  What the fuck is this shit?".

[Ironwood]

So I'm watching Snow White at the moment with the wean.

It's clear to me that this Prince is a 45 year old man and Snow White is about 16-17.

Also, she's a domestic slave to seven twisted almost men.

My advice would be not to overthink current fads and JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE.

Don't even get me started on the Socio-economic theories inherent in Special Agent OSO.

[Numtini]

The difference between James Bond and Twilight is that Bond is feeding male supremacist fantasies to men. Twilight is feeding male supremacist fantasies to girls.

[Morat20]

I propose that Morat, WUA and Haemish do a joint review/round table discussion of Anne Bishop's "Dark Jewels" trilogy, or Jacquiline Carey's "Kushiel" books.  One has magical cock-rings to keep males in line, and the other has a powerful female protagonist who's superpower is submissive S&M sex.

That thread would be EPIC.

My wife would kill me. I have a book list two feet high of stuff she wants me to read (half of which is teenage literature -- the best of the modern stuff that she tries to get her classrooms to read, and wants a male perspective on), and if she found out I read a new series entirely to get ready for a slap-fight online about it's literary merits, psychosexual hangups, or general ridiculousness/awesomeness -- well, she'd either kill me or demand to get to name the next set of books.

On the other hand, magical cock rings? You  have my attention.

[schild]

I'm on my phone so I'll be brief: Margalis, that was some super retarded shit.

[Mrbloodworth]

Johny Cee is ripping into Buffy and James Bond. This is awesome.

One of the reasons I can't hate on Twilight that much, even though it's obviously extremely lame, is that it really isn't much lamer than a bunch of stuff that we just accept because they are expressions of dominant male culture. James Bond is the perfect example of that, he's basically a serial killer who preys on women. I like how Alan Moore put it in his intro to Dark Knight Returns:

"we begin to see that the overriding factor in James Bond's psychological makeup is his utter hatred and contempt for women." it's always amazed me that a single woman on earth could stand to watch those movies.  Not only are they pure schlock but the type of wish fulfillment they represent is more than a little disturbing. Apparently the perfect life is sleeping with and then killing as many women as possible while taking time out to masturbate with cool gadgets.

I may agree, if not for bonds back story of how he got that way.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Alan moore is also one of the last people that should be commenting on how to write female characters.

[Ironwood]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Ratman_tf]

My advice would be not to overthink current fads and JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE.

End of the internet right there.

[Ingmar]

Put me down on the "emperor has no clothes" side for Whedon too. The embracing of Buffy as a "feminist" hero of any kind that I see happening (not just here, all over zee Internet) fairly baffles me.

[Ironwood]

My advice would be not to overthink current fads and JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE.

End of the internet right there.

I'm strangely ok with that.

[Morat20]

Put me down on the "emperor has no clothes" side for Whedon too. The embracing of Buffy as a "feminist" hero of any kind that I see happening (not just here, all over zee Internet) fairly baffles me.

I've never thought of her as feminist, although casting her in the role of vampire hunter rather than vamipire bait was at least a depature.

With everything else, she seemed...complicated. (Although I'd like to pretend everything after High School never happened).

[Sjofn]

One of the reasons I can't hate on Twilight that much, even though it's obviously extremely lame, is that it really isn't much lamer than a bunch of stuff that we just accept because they are expressions of dominant male culture. James Bond is the perfect example of that, he's basically a serial killer who preys on women.

That might be an interesting point if James Bond fans were anywhere near as obsessive as Twilight fans.  I think that's the main reason anyone even takes notice of this Twilight shit.  It has nothing to do with dominant male culture and everything to do with the "what the fuck is wrong with kids today" mentality.  It's probably more similar to how older people felt when everyone was going crazy over the original Star Wars trilogy.  "Wait, those two who just kissed are actually brother and sister?  What the fuck is this shit?".

I am pretty confident part of the reason ladies are overdoing the OMG SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE thing with Twilight is that it's one of those glorious few times they get to openly lust over a pretty, pretty man and generally be complete morons over something silly. Dudes are allowed to indulge in their "durrrr, EYE CANDY YAY" all the time, and are also more often allowed to be stupid fans of stuff that just isn't that important or good. Ladies are supposed to be ABOVE wanting men just for their hot, hot bodies and are also alleged to be too "mature" to obsess over silly things like HOBBIES or FANDOMS.

[HaemishM]

That might be an interesting point if James Bond fans were anywhere near as obsessive as Twilight fans.  I think that's the main reason anyone even takes notice of this Twilight shit. 

Actually, my problem isn't with the fans so much, as let's face it, these are just bodice rippers without the bodice or ripping. There will always be shit lit out there, whether abstaining chick or not - it makes lots of money, and at least people are reading. No, my problem with this is the same problem I had with Harry Potter - the goddamn media. The first movie and the books make a mint selling shit lit to functional emotional retards, and suddenly, I can't turn on the GODDAMN TELEVISION without hearing otherwise rational news people wanking over the newest book or movie release like it was the goddamn second coming. Same problem I have with Dan Brown - not only are there fucktastically bad writers out there making huge advances and selling movie rights (bad enough in itself but understandable) while I can't get the time of fucking day, but they are getting an absolute metric fuckton of BIG TIME EXPOSURE FOR FUCKING FREE. Diane Sawyer is slavering over the New Moon premiere on the morning show? Do you know how I would stab to death with my rigid cock to get 15 seconds of air time and one URL mention on Good Morning America? And this sloppy cunt writing rape fantasies and the douchiest looking boy band reject in the world are plastered on every media outlet I can find? I can't even get a fucking pancake platter at Burger Goddamn King without being ejaculated on by the latest media wankfest, and everyone involved is treating this shit like it's the modern goddamn Wuthering Heights. At least Wuthering Heights had some redeeming qualities - Twilight is just a Harlequin Romance without the sex.

[Nevermore]

I am pretty confident part of the reason ladies are overdoing the OMG SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE thing with Twilight is that it's one of those glorious few times they get to openly lust over a pretty, pretty man and generally be complete morons over something silly. Dudes are allowed to indulge in their "durrrr, EYE CANDY YAY" all the time, and are also more often allowed to be stupid fans of stuff that just isn't that important or good. Ladies are supposed to be ABOVE wanting men just for their hot, hot bodies and are also alleged to be too "mature" to obsess over silly things like HOBBIES or FANDOMS.

So Twilight is just a live action American bishonen anime.

[Velorath]

I am pretty confident part of the reason ladies are overdoing the OMG SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE thing with Twilight is that it's one of those glorious few times they get to openly lust over a pretty, pretty man and generally be complete morons over something silly. Dudes are allowed to indulge in their "durrrr, EYE CANDY YAY" all the time, and are also more often allowed to be stupid fans of stuff that just isn't that important or good. Ladies are supposed to be ABOVE wanting men just for their hot, hot bodies and are also alleged to be too "mature" to obsess over silly things like HOBBIES or FANDOMS.

I don't know, I see ladies openly lusting over men all that time.  For instance, any time a movie with Channing Tatum comes out. 

[lamaros]

The difference between James Bond and Twilight is that Bond is feeding male supremacist fantasies to men. Twilight is feeding male supremacist fantasies to girls.

I think this is what bothers me the most, but then I might just be trying too hard.

So I'm watching Snow White at the moment with the wean.

It's clear to me that this Prince is a 45 year old man and Snow White is about 16-17.

Also, she's a domestic slave to seven twisted almost men.

My advice would be not to overthink current fads and JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE.

So we're cool with perpetuating world views in which 45 year old white men act out their fantasies? I mean, sure, I get your point, but there's certainly scope for people to say "hang on, think about it: that's fucked up!" too.

[gryeyes]

So we're cool with perpetuating world views in which 45 year old white men act out their fantasies?

World views should be based on reality right?

[Sjofn]

I don't know, I see ladies openly lusting over men all that time.  For instance, any time a movie with Channing Tatum comes out.  

It isn't really the same. I don't know how to explain to a guy just how pervasive their "right" to check out women and declare their worth at the drop of a hat is compared to "omg Channing Tatum is hot." (I don't even know who that is, I'm so old and hermity. :( ) Also how they're allowed to declare if they would have sex with a woman, personality be damned, and no one ever cares. But women shrieking over sparkly vampire guy (in a safe silly way, even!)? Man, what's WRONG with them?


EDIT: Yeah, Nevermore, I guess that's pretty much what I am saying. :P

[Samwise]

But women shrieking over sparkly vampire guy (in a safe silly way, even!)? Man, what's WRONG with them?

Women openly shrieking over a hot guy isn't really what's being made fun of here.  What's being made fun of is women who pretend that that's not the reason they're going to see the movie.