Patch 3.3

[AutomaticZen]

Apparently not going live in that form:

I wouldn't worry too much on the Lay on Hands change at this point. I don't want to promise we won't change the spell for 3.3, but our intent was to revert the others only change before it went out to the PTR, which is why we didn't patch note it. We have already changed it back on our local builds. --GC

I'm sure that's a bitch in PVP.  I personally don't PVP myself, my pally is PVE Prot/PVE Holy.  Generally, if I get stuck in world PVP, I just stand there and die.

[Gobbeldygook]

LOH, army of the dead, & elementals should removed or nerfed until they're appropriate for 10 minute cooldowns.  Having to grind a paladin's HP down three goddamn times for it to finally die is infuriating, although doing it by yourself is extremely satisfying.

In the case of elementals, that might be 'not nerfed at all'.  The only common use for earth elemental I've seen is countering army of the dead and fire isn't much better.

[Ingmar]

I am 100% against lower the cooldown on earth elemental, that would just make it more often that our enhance shaman drops it at totally inopportune times in PVE no matter how many times we tell him not to ARGHGHGHGHGHGH

[Sheepherder]

It would certainly make soloing those three person quests in Dragonblight easier on my 75 shaman.

[El Gallo]

Fuck paladins.  It is asinine to refuse to even try to balance 1:1 pvp in a game where 99% of the pvp is essentially 1:1 (i.e. random people fighting on battlegrounds).  And by taking the best rewards out of 2-person arena teams, Blizzard is admitting that they won't ever try to seriously balance 2v2 play either.   I'd pay $100 a month for an account on a battlegroup where paladins were not available and consider it a bargain.

[WindupAtheist]

Sometimes I run into a DK who has AOTD available while my bubble is down or I've just popped wings, and it's pretty much an instant victory button from them. Somehow I manage to avoid crying big soppy emo tears on every available forum over it, since it's like a 15 minute cooldown being used in a battle that's guaranteed to be over before he can think about doing it again. Suck it up and learn to play, because if 99% of your battleground combat is one-on-one then you're doing it wrong anyway.

Oh hell, who am I kidding? They can remove LOH completely and the same faggot rogue who thinks randomly sapping me in the Field of Strife in AV makes him an awesome death ninja and totally helpful to his team will still run to the forums and bawl his little eyes out about PLATE HEALS AND BUBLE OMG when I turn around and rip his face off.

[Sjofn]

I am 100% against lower the cooldown on earth elemental, that would just make it more often that our enhance shaman drops it at totally inopportune times in PVE no matter how many times we tell him not to ARGHGHGHGHGHGH

You stole my post!


EDIT: Actually, WUA stole the other thing I was thinking of posting. Bitching about paladins and LoH is soooo 2004.

[WindupAtheist]

Seriously. I am so completely tired of soaking up tears from people who just fell off the turnip truck and went "WHY DOES IT KEEP SAYING IMMUNE WHEN I HIT THIS PALADIN? OMG HAX! TO THE FORUMS!" Yeah, you go ahead and balance around one-on-one. Maybe then I'll get to kill a mage someday.

[Sjofn]

Long ago, when I still actually played my paladin, I used to loooooove when four or five Horde would chase me across AV. I liked to see how far I could get before they managed to kill me (if I got far enough, they would get killed themselves by the Alliance zerg). It was the main time I'd use LoH, I could feel their poutrage through the internets whenever I fired that off. <3

[Triforcer]

The last time I played WoW for more than 2 days was pre-BC.  My mage would equip his Goblin Rocket Helmet, I'd fight a pally and be down to zero mana as he popped all his cooldowns.  Then I'd hit him for a guaranteed 30 second sap and bandage and drink to full    As a finisher, my gnomish death ray was always fun. 

...god world pvp back then was awesome.  I wasn't a pvp god with my engy trinkets by any means, but it was a fun way to win a fight. 

[AutomaticZen]

Maybe then I'll get to kill a mage someday.

HAHAHA!  No.  Blizzard doesn't love us that much.

It's much better than back in BC, when the only PVP I could possibly win was against Warriors/Rogues, and that was just them killing themselves on Holy Shield, Shield Spike and Ret Aura.  Anything else, and I just gave up and died.

Now I have more of a chance.  I see a mage or warlock, I throw my Avenger's Shield and get a small chance to catch them without being nuked from orbit.

They don't balance around 1:1 pvp because it's never going to fucking happen.  The best you'll get is maybe some Paper, Rock, Scissors shit. 

And even then, shit, I'm a Prot Pally.  I use LoH to save against wipes.  If it's too powerful, move it back to the old cooldown and I'll go back to never using the shit for fear the 'real bad wipe' will be the next one.

[dd0029]

I don't get the LoH nerf.  That's one of those things where I am more, Ha!  I made you burn a 15 min CD. 

If they want to nerf something, nerf that fucking hammer.  Make it like fear in that it has a progressive chance to break on damage.  For that matter they need to do the same thing to Hex.  Frankly, CC needs more drastic diminishing returns.  Which is just my way of saying, fuck druids.  God I hate fucking trees in 2s.  If you can't burst them in like 5 seconds, you are out of fucking luck.  I really hate the ones they rub in my suck by staying in caster form nearly the whole time.

[Sjofn]

For a second I thought you meant the "I FINISH YOU" hammer and was confused. The stun I get though, because no one likes being stunned.

[Gobbeldygook]

I don't get the LoH nerf.  That's one of those things where I am more, Ha!  I made you burn a 15 min CD. 

If they want to nerf something, nerf that fucking hammer.  Make it like fear in that it has a progressive chance to break on damage.  For that matter they need to do the same thing to Hex.

You have no idea what you're talking about.  Hex does break on damage just like fear.  Shaman even have a glyph that makes it take more damage to break.

Retadins were one of the most frustrating classes to fight when my shaman was a fresh, undergeared 80, but once I was sufficiently geared to survive a full duration hammer of justice, they became cute and adorable.  Yesterday, I kited one around in WG for about 8 minutes before he said fuck this and flew away while I was drinking myself back to full mana.

[WindupAtheist]

You can have the Hammer of Justice as long as you give me some sort of actual distance-closer. Because man, if they trinket out of that stun... Let me tell you, running after a guy who's kiting you with nothing going for you but Hand of Freedom, a repent that breaks on 1 even point of damage, and the fact that you run a whole 15% faster than normal isn't NEARLY as cool as it apparently seems to people.

[Soulflame]

DEPLOY SUNWELL ICECROWN RADIANCE!

I'm just trying to picture the thought process behind this.

Developer:
Hm... two problems.
Low druid tank representation... but I'm sure it could be lower still!
High tank avoidance.
...
I know!  I'll break our promise to never use a stupid mechanic like Sunwell Radiance, and have it affect dodge!
My work here is finished.

[AutomaticZen]

The best part is I knew this was coming.

I'm sitting here wondering, 'where is all the block rating on fucking Prot Pally/Warrior gear?  Did they forget it existed?  There's a lot of dodge. Every now and then I see some parry.  Doesn't Blizzard see they're going to have to nerf dodge?'

Blizzard nerfs dodge. 

Blizzard, YOU DID THIS!  *points at Heroic Northrend Beasts!*  GOR-FUCKING-MOK!  YOU GAVE ME NO CHOICE!

[Soulflame]

I hate goddamn Gor'mok the Impaler.  I've seen our tanks get globaled for 53k damage in heroic 10 ToC.  Woo unhealable tank damage!   

I've seen sensibly written posts say this avoidance nerf hits all tanks equally, so it should not impact bear tanks in any meaningful way.  OTOH, I'm sure most people with a barely working knowledge of bear tank mechanics (that's meeeee!) will immediately think "... isn't that the only druid avoidance stat, and now it's reduced?  That can't be good for druids at all."

It does reduce the effectiveness of trinkets that give dodge, or proc on dodge, or melee swings that require a dodge to be usable (DK tanks?)

[Gobbeldygook]

I'm sitting here wondering, 'where is all the block rating on fucking Prot Pally/Warrior gear?

If I ever see a single point of block rating or value on prot warrior tier gear again, it'll be too soon.

[Ingmar]

I don't think they promised never to use Sunwell Radiance again, but they did say they had a plan to avoid having to go back to it. The problem apparently is they abandoned their gear plan for WotLK at some point due to deciding to introduce the heroic/hard mode stuff and ended up introducing way more tiers of gear then originally planned.

[Fordel]

Retadins were one of the most frustrating classes to fight when my shaman was a fresh, undergeared 80, but once I was sufficiently geared to survive a full duration hammer of justice, they became cute and adorable.  Yesterday, I kited one around in WG for about 8 minutes before he said fuck this and flew away while I was drinking myself back to full mana.

That is more due to the fact they dramatically nerfed Ret's burst over the patches, then due to gear. If WotLK release Ret was still around, they would be dropping 40k HP tanks inside a HoJ still.

I'm still at a loss as to how they thought buffing Ret up to Raid DPS levels through their instant strikes was going to end well.

[Gobbeldygook]

That is more due to the fact they dramatically nerfed Ret's burst over the patches, then due to gear. If WotLK release Ret was still around, they would be dropping 40k HP tanks inside a HoJ still.

I'm still at a loss as to how they thought buffing Ret up to Raid DPS levels through their instant strikes was going to end well.

My shaman only hit 80 after 3.2.  It's pretty easy to forget just how squishy a fresh 80 is vs geared 80s.

[Selby]

It's pretty easy to forget just how squishy a fresh 80 is vs geared 80s.

And it becomes *really* obvious on those fresh 80s that never learned how to assist a tank running heroics for the first time...

[Sheepherder]

I've seen sensibly written posts say this avoidance nerf hits all tanks equally, so it should not impact bear tanks in any meaningful way.  OTOH, I'm sure most people with a barely working knowledge of bear tank mechanics (that's meeeee!) will immediately think "... isn't that the only druid avoidance stat, and now it's reduced?  That can't be good for druids at all."

With diminishing returns on dodge the debuff hits you harder than everyone else if you have high dodge, because at aforementioned high levels you are paying significantly more item budget for every real percent of avoidance, and druids are compelled to take this avoidance or nothing.

[Lt.Dan]

DEPLOY SUNWELL ICECROWN RADIANCE!

Does it apply to the 5-man Icecrown Citadel content too?

[Fordel]

DEPLOY SUNWELL ICECROWN RADIANCE!

Does it apply to the 5-man Icecrown Citadel content too?

Probably not, no.

[Ironwood]

That's a stupid way to solve a silly problem.

I missed all this during the Sunwell due to, er, not giving a fuck about the sunwell content.

[Ashamanchill]

I missed all this during the Sunwell due to, er, not giving a fuck about the sunwell content.

As long as this just affects the 10 man and up raid, I could give a fuck. I can always kitty form it. If it affects the five man....fuck it. I wanted to come back this patch cycle too.

[Ingmar]

It isn't going to affect the 5 man stuff, that wouldn't make any sense.

[Soulflame]

I've seen sensibly written posts say this avoidance nerf hits all tanks equally, so it should not impact bear tanks in any meaningful way.  OTOH, I'm sure most people with a barely working knowledge of bear tank mechanics (that's meeeee!) will immediately think "... isn't that the only druid avoidance stat, and now it's reduced?  That can't be good for druids at all."

With diminishing returns on dodge the debuff hits you harder than everyone else if you have high dodge, because at aforementioned high levels you are paying significantly more item budget for every real percent of avoidance, and druids are compelled to take this avoidance or nothing.

See, this is exactly what I thought initially as well.  I guess it's countered by the budget value for parry being bad enough that you can't compensate by gearing for parry, so you're better off gearing dodge anyway.  Shield block isn't terribly good when you're talking about 20k+ hits, and although GC says that tanks will be hit more often for less damage, he also notes that tanks will still be able to die in two hits.  Soooo... at a guess, we're looking at tanks having a lot less avoidance, and still eating 20k hits + specials, which means tons of fun watching your tank randomly getting globaled for 60k damage!  I adore fights like that.

DKs are kind of up in arms about Rune Strike, although GC seems to think their concerns are unwarranted.  I guess we'll see.  Lower threat generation, plus lower avoidance, and no block mechanic, all of this could add up to the real impact being on DKs, not druids as I first thought.

I figure all that means is I'll have less overheal, but will continue to spam FoL until I need to spam HL.     Or possibly I'll be forced to spam HL all the time!  That will be even more fun and dynamic.

[Ingmar]

They say the level of incoming damage will be lower and smoother, and the spikes will be predictable sorts of things.

BTW it may be counterintuitive, but putting that big -20% on dodge up front actually doesn't make dodge any less valuable; in fact if this really does translate into lower per-hit boss damage it increases the value of avoidance in general vs. stacking stamina which is really the only meaningful choice tanks have to make gear-wise. Remember, tanks suddenly started gemming for avoidance in Sunwell, and Sunwell *didn't* have the stated goal of toning down (relative) boss damage.

It may take getting into some Icecrown gear before you start seeing people make the switch, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see some avoidance gemming come back as people up their stamina farther from new gear.

[Merusk]

DKs are kind of up in arms about Rune Strike, although GC seems to think their concerns are unwarranted.  I guess we'll see.  Lower threat generation, plus lower avoidance, and no block mechanic, all of this could add up to the real impact being on DKs, not druids as I first thought.

Yeah, this is directly where I thought things were aimed. DK tanks have been constantly and consistently nerfed, not because "Omg we din't plan 4 a hole x-tra tier" like GC claims, but because He, as a lead designer, doesn't understand the mechanics of the game he's working on.

 When WOTLK first launched there were plenty of smart theorycrafters out there saying, "Uh, guys.. DKs can hit damn near the avoidance AND armor cap in BLUE gear.. you might want to look at that."   There were some adjustments but nothing big until Dks were the sole tank being looked at for hard modes and Sarth 3d.  Then, suddenly, "oh wow we have to fix this!"   And it's been the same story ever since.

[Ingmar]

Its not just DKs. All tanks have very high levels of total avoidance right now. I'd not be surprised to see rune strike get a threat buff, though, since DK single target threat was already slightly weak and getting less procs could theoretically hurt them. The question is will taking dodge out of the equation lower the procs on it enough that they won't be able to hit it every swing, which probably depends on the DK. The ones who would have trouble probably aren't geared enough to tank in IC anyway, is probably the theory. I guess it would definitely screw a dual wielder tank (not that there are many), for the slow 2h users it is likely to be dependent on where the individual DK sits on parry and such.

[Sheepherder]

I just did a bit more research, apparently druids have a higher dodge cap (from which the DR's are calculated).

The people claiming that other tanks gear for dodge anyways, and thus there is no difference are right, for the wrong reason.  Because the amount of gear/talents with parry still decreases the amount of dodge they would have to gear for to get __% level of avoidance, even though that parry is sub-optimal.

The buff is still a fucking retarded solution, when they could fix it by merging all the avoidance DR's into one and equalizing the value of dodge/parry.  Of course, parry still has the haste proc, but that isn't exactly game-breaking, or even wanted in some cases (tanks under the parry cap, which is probably most of them).

[Ingmar]

The buff is still a fucking retarded solution, when they could fix it by merging all the avoidance DR's into one and equalizing the value of dodge/parry.  Of course, parry still has the haste proc, but that isn't exactly game-breaking, or even wanted in some cases (tanks under the parry cap, which is probably most of them).

Nah, the real way to fix it is just to keep the ratings lower. The system they have is a little obtuse but it works fine if you input the right numbers into it to start with; the problem is that the rating numbers on gear are just too high for the conversion rate they have, for the very end content. Its fine in lower instances/gear - changing the conversion rate would negatively impact lower-geared players and raise the difficulty of lower instances probably more than they want. This is the most sensible/least-likely-to-introduce-crazy-bugs way to patch it at this point in the content cycle, and they can rebalance it at 80-85 in the expansion patch.