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Title: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on September 30, 2009, 07:42:57 PM
From:  http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/icecrown-citadel-the-frozen-halls/

Icecrown Citadel: The Frozen Halls

Quote from: Blizzard (Source)
Icecrown Citadel will feature a massive five-player dungeon sprawling across three wings of the citadel's foundation. While the Lich King's attention is focused on the Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade ripping through the front gates, players will be tested as they assist Jaina Proudmoore (Alliance) and Sylvanas Windrunner (Horde) in infiltrating the citadel through an alternate entrance.

An epic quest line will present adventurers with the task of weakening Icecrown Citadel's forces, requiring that players defeat the challenges in each dungeon wing before venturing into the next one. Normal and Heroic versions of the dungeon will be accessible to players, although each wing will be considered a separate instance; therefore, on Heroic difficulty, each wing will have its own separate lockout timer. All-new rewards -- including item level 219 (normal) and level 232 (Heroic) loot -- will be offered to those who destroy some of the Lich King's most formidable allies.

The Forge of Souls
Serving as the first wing in this expansive dungeon, the Forge of Souls will quickly put players to the test of carving through the Scourge stronghold into deeper, more treacherous locations. Jaina will command Alliance forces, and Sylvanas will direct Horde forces. The goal is to ruin the twisted engines known as soul grinders found in this portion of the citadel, and then players can advance -- that is, if the Horde and Alliance forces can overcome the foes who confront them.

Bosses

    * Bronjahm, the Godfather of Souls: An instrument of reckoning, Bronjahm watches over the engines in the Forge of Souls. He must be killed if the soul grinders are to be destroyed.
    * The Devourer of Souls: As the chief operator of the engines found in this wing, the Devourer stands guard over the souls stolen by the Lich King.


Pit of Saron
Accessible only to those who have laid waste to the Forge of Souls' unholy operations, the Pit of Saron will bring Horde and Alliance forces deeper into the Lich King's domain. Players who venture here will immediately be confronted by the lord of this lair, Scourgelord Tyrannus. But defeating him will not be as easy as it seems. Before they can present a threat to Tyrannus, the adventurers, instructed by their leaders, will need to free enslaved allies who have been trapped by the Scourge. Until that happens, Tyrannus will leave all adversaries to his minions, workers of the citadel's mines. Perhaps the challenges here will lend clues as to the whereabouts of the Lich King's private chambers outside of the Frozen Throne, deep within the Halls of Reflection.

Bosses

    * Forgemaster Garfrost: A master of Scourge weaponry, the forgemaster hauls stocks of saronite ore and other precious materials to the cold forges where the mechanisms of death are born. With a host of rime weapons and exotic alloys at his disposal, it could get cold in here.
    * Krick and Ick: Zombies serve as mindless muscle in the Pit of Saron's mines, stockpiling metals for Forgemaster Garfrost, and Krick -- a devious leper gnome -- supervises the operations from atop Ick, Krick's ghastly means of transportation.
    * Scourgelord Tyrannus: Tyrannus is a terrible force who will no doubt demonstrate his powers to those brave enough to enter the Pit of Saron. The scourgelord must die if players hope to make their way into the third and final wing of this dungeon.


Halls of Reflection
With Jaina and Sylvanas leading the way, adventurers who make it as far as these frigid halls will quickly recognize the weapon that lies ahead: Frostmourne, the corruptive, legendary device of the Lich King himself. The Lich King's private chambers are within reach, although they may be the death of anyone who ventures there.

Bosses

    * Falric and Marwyn: Captains for Arthas Menethil in life, Scourge commanders for the Lich King in death, Falric and Marwyn will be summoned to the Halls of Reflection for one purpose: destroying all intruders.
    * The Lich King: Sylvanas, thirsty for vengeance against the corrupted prince who sentenced her to an existence as an undead monstrosity, and Jaina, eager to find a flicker of Arthas's soul locked somewhere within the Lich King, have brought their hand-picked allies to this final confrontation. Arthas's true power may only now be discovered. Is there any hope in this mission, or does only death await?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Hawkbit on September 30, 2009, 07:56:54 PM
Wait, what?  Arthas is 5manned?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tannhauser on September 30, 2009, 07:57:01 PM
Not a raid?  But, but but raiders are leet! :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on September 30, 2009, 08:05:35 PM
I think it's gonna be a reverse magisters terrace. You'll fight arthas but at the end he'll show his true power, etc and then you finally stop him in the raid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on September 30, 2009, 08:17:05 PM
Maybe we'll kill Arthas, but the LichKing is still around.

Or something.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Malakili on September 30, 2009, 08:23:55 PM
I think it's gonna be a reverse magisters terrace. You'll fight arthas but at the end he'll show his true power, etc and then you finally stop him in the raid.

Probably this.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on September 30, 2009, 08:44:29 PM
Even so, the forums have been full of sweet sweet "Casuals get to fight Arthas?!" poopsock tears.  :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: pxib on September 30, 2009, 09:12:09 PM
Jaina reignites what remains of Arthas' paladin's soul and, in that touching moment of weakness, Sylvannas kills him... finally bringing Ms. Proudmoore back into the Horde-hater fold. Frostmourn is lost for centuries for some reason, then gets found by a goblin who becomes morbidly obsessed and goes to hide alone with it in some damp cave.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on September 30, 2009, 09:16:47 PM
Or maybe you get to feel heroic and actually put an end to the madness once and for all with just a handful of people?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on September 30, 2009, 09:23:22 PM
Even so, the forums have been full of sweet sweet "Casuals get to fight Arthas?!" poopsock tears.  :drill:

Those are always my favorite.  :heart:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on September 30, 2009, 10:16:29 PM
Or maybe you get to feel heroic and actually put an end to the madness once and for all with just a handful of people?

With the power of positive thinking and kittens!!!  :why_so_serious:

In all seriousness, I do think anything over 10 man groups are stupid in terms of real tactic, oddly enough that number is roughly near the number the classes in the game.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on September 30, 2009, 10:27:01 PM
Someone in my guild had an interesting thought. In the five man you stop 'arthas' but in the 10 and 25 you defeat the lich king/ner'zul.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on September 30, 2009, 10:45:40 PM
I'm not saying this to dampen anyone's outlook, but there's no way Arthas isn't at the end of the 25 man dungeon.  There's just been too much buildup.  He's on the damn box.  And he's been looming up there on his dickhead ice throne since WC3.  He's just gotta be as epic as possible.

That' said, I probably won't be 25 manning him either, as I'm just too tired of tending to 25 egos.  It's cool you'll be able to fight him in the 5 man.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on September 30, 2009, 10:48:21 PM
Someone in my guild had an interesting thought. In the five man you stop 'arthas' but in the 10 and 25 you defeat the lich king/ner'zul.
This is pretty much what my group felt as well.  The 5-mans will lead into a raid where whatever happens, happens on the grand scale.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 01, 2009, 12:20:50 AM
That' said, I probably won't be 25 manning him either, as I'm just too tired of tending to 25 egos.  It's cool you'll be able to fight him in the 5 man.

It's been my experience that guilds hold together best when your egotistical twats aren't allowed to snipe others with impunity, which implies equality under the law or dog-eat-dog.  The best one I've known had leadership that sat back and watched as a regular member and a new app had man-on-mangina cybersex in /g for the lulz of the inevitable "Whips out her cock" moment, the subsequent verbal abuse along with the "Hey, you enjoyed it too" moments, and the ultimate /gquit fifteen minutes later of someone dumb enough not to realize that the Very Hairy Man Guild would get up to some freaky shit when bored.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 01, 2009, 02:13:25 AM
The screens look great.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 01, 2009, 02:44:13 AM
Don't make me explain why this is awesome.

"Bronjahm, the Godfather of Souls"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on October 01, 2009, 06:21:35 AM
Jaina reignites what remains of Arthas' paladin's soul and, in that touching moment of weakness, Sylvannas kills him... finally bringing Ms. Proudmoore back into the Horde-hater fold. Frostmourn is lost for centuries for some reason, then gets found by a goblin who becomes morbidly obsessed and goes to hide alone with it in some damp cave.
Minor detail: There's nothing left to redeem. (http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=13364)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 01, 2009, 06:40:01 AM
Someone in my guild had an interesting thought. In the five man you stop 'arthas' but in the 10 and 25 you defeat the lich king/ner'zul.

I really hope not.  All signs indicate that the Lich King is a separate being that has the personalities and powers of Arthas (as a death knight) and Ner'zhul (as a warlock).  I think there's no way to separate the two.  As for him being 5 manned, no problems there.  I'd like to experience this as I love Warcraft 3.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 01, 2009, 06:48:14 AM
Don't make me explain why this is awesome.

"Bronjahm, the Godfather of Souls"

I pointed this out in the 'Dungeon Blather' thread, but I'm unsure if anyone got it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 01, 2009, 10:04:29 AM
Don't make me explain why this is awesome.

"Bronjahm, the Godfather of Souls"

I pointed this out in the 'Dungeon Blather' thread, but I'm unsure if anyone got it.

If he doesn't drop a brand new bag I will be disappointed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Hutch on October 01, 2009, 11:09:04 AM
(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1217291/Misc/brandnewbag.png)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 01, 2009, 11:15:54 AM
Don't make me explain why this is awesome.

"Bronjahm, the Godfather of Souls"

I am going to have to make you explain the awesomeness.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on October 01, 2009, 11:18:53 AM
Don't make me explain why this is awesome.

"Bronjahm, the Godfather of Souls"

I am going to have to make you explain the awesomeness.

Heathen.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on October 01, 2009, 11:19:03 AM
Don't make me explain why this is awesome.

"Bronjahm, the Godfather of Souls"

I am going to have to make you explain the awesomeness.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMjOn7YjtWI


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on October 01, 2009, 11:29:49 AM
That' said, I probably won't be 25 manning him either, as I'm just too tired of tending to 25 egos.  It's cool you'll be able to fight him in the 5 man.

It's been my experience that guilds hold together best when your egotistical twats aren't allowed to snipe others with impunity, which implies equality under the law or dog-eat-dog.  The best one I've known had leadership that sat back and watched as a regular member and a new app had man-on-mangina cybersex in /g for the lulz of the inevitable "Whips out her cock" moment, the subsequent verbal abuse along with the "Hey, you enjoyed it too" moments, and the ultimate /gquit fifteen minutes later of someone dumb enough not to realize that the Very Hairy Man Guild would get up to some freaky shit when bored.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the management options.  Nobody enjoys lulz more than me.  After a while though, the shock value wears off.  Be very wary of 'girls' with 'no mic.'


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on October 01, 2009, 11:45:02 AM
That' said, I probably won't be 25 manning him either, as I'm just too tired of tending to 25 egos.  It's cool you'll be able to fight him in the 5 man.

It's been my experience that guilds hold together best when your egotistical twats aren't allowed to snipe others with impunity, which implies equality under the law or dog-eat-dog.  The best one I've known had leadership that sat back and watched as a regular member and a new app had man-on-mangina cybersex in /g for the lulz of the inevitable "Whips out her cock" moment, the subsequent verbal abuse along with the "Hey, you enjoyed it too" moments, and the ultimate /gquit fifteen minutes later of someone dumb enough not to realize that the Very Hairy Man Guild would get up to some freaky shit when bored.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the management options.  Nobody enjoys lulz more than me.  After a while though, the shock value wears off.  Be very wary of 'girls' with 'no mic.'

*eyes sjofn and her "my voice chat isn't working again"*

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on October 01, 2009, 12:23:43 PM
You're just jealous her voice is deeper than yours.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 01, 2009, 12:40:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMjOn7YjtWI

Epicness confirmed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 01, 2009, 12:48:03 PM
Jaina reignites what remains of Arthas' paladin's soul and, in that touching moment of weakness, Sylvannas kills him... finally bringing Ms. Proudmoore back into the Horde-hater fold. Frostmourn is lost for centuries for some reason, then gets found by a goblin who becomes morbidly obsessed and goes to hide alone with it in some damp cave.
Minor detail: There's nothing left to redeem. (http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=13364)
I disagree, especially considering that Matthias Lehner (aka, Mr. Anagram) leads you along by the nose showing Arthas' descent into depravity.  It's pretty good speculation that Matt actually IS the fully disembodied remains of what was "good" in Arthas' soul, and that while you did end up destroying his Heart in an effort to weaken Arthas at the end of the quest chain, no one really knows what happened to Matt.  It is possible Matt is actually still out there, waiting for a chance to fight back more directly, so to speak.

Of course, there is also an opposite speculation that the Matthias Lehner vision is actually an illusion created by Yogg Saron, who leads you around purposely to get you to destroy the heart and weaken Arthas for his own ends.

Personally, just considering that we basically deal with Yogg before Arthas in the raid / lore / story line progression, i'm leaning more towards the first option being the more likely scenario of the two.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 01, 2009, 12:55:12 PM
You have to consider for a moment that Matthias and the heart can't BOTH be the last bit of good in arthas, that would be stupid.  Well if Matthias was all the good left in him and all the good left in him lay in the heart then Matthias is no more. That's what I took away from it at least, Matthias was that last bit of good inside him and at the end, you kill even that. Well, tiron does...

and while I'm at it when you see the lich king in the trial of the grand crusader and tiron says "Lay down frostmourne and I shall grant you a just and swift death"  don't you just want to pinch tirion's cheek for being such an adorable lawful stupid paladin?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 01, 2009, 01:21:15 PM
Well, maybe Matthias has you assist in destroying the heart for some other reason.  It is possible that Arthas removed his own heart because he THOUGHT it would assist in severing his ties to his humanity / weakness, but in actuality did not (or maybe exposed a vulnerability instead).

My personal theory is that currently Matthias IS all that remains of the good that was in Arthas' soul, and is somehow managing to exist as a completely independant entity, for all intents and purposes as spirit that can't yet move on to the afterlife because it is not "complete" or something similar. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 01, 2009, 01:31:40 PM
*eyes sjofn and her "my voice chat isn't working again"*

 :awesome_for_real:

Eh? I always have my voice chat working.

I have to conclude that proudft is right, you're jealous of my husky man voice.

EDIT: On the topic of Arthas, I think Mr. Anagram is the good left over, and the naaru are going to show up and help him off to the afterlife when all is said and done. There's a big ol' quest chain that seemed to forshadow that (to me).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on October 01, 2009, 01:32:40 PM
*eyes sjofn and her "my voice chat isn't working again"*

 :awesome_for_real:

Eh? I always have my voice chat working.

I have to conclude that proudft is right, you're jealous of my husky man voice.

Was that ing? I remember one of you was never on voice because of random "sound card issues" :P

But hey, I SOUND like a girl, so I could totally pull this scam in guild.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 01, 2009, 01:35:09 PM
I think you're high. That is the only explanation.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 01, 2009, 02:10:45 PM
Update to add some New Patch Notes:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html

Quick Summary of the Big changes -
- Pet Classes are getting reamed HARDCORE in PvP (gg feeding your pet into the Bladestorm Meat Grinder)
- Small Revert to the "downranking" nerf (Welcome back rank 1 frost bolt spam for low mana cost snares)
- 1 Second immunity to Vanish breaking from damage / hostile actions after Vanishing.
- Shaman get some AoE love.
- Bunch of quality of life changes for characters level 1-15?  wtf

Quote

General

    * Icecrown Citadel
          o The Forge of Souls, the first wing of the 5-player dungeon, is currently available for testing.
          o Additional Icecrown Citadel dungeon and raid content will be made available in future test builds.
    * Dazed: Creatures attacking a player from behind can no longer cause players level 1-5 to be dazed, and have a reduced chance to cause players level 6-10 to be dazed.
    * Copied Test Realm characters will no longer be copied with their achievement history in order to better facilitate the character copy process.

Classes: General

    * Default Equipment: Starting weapons are now more uniform. Rogues now start with a pair of daggers equipped. All other classes except shamans start with a 2-handed weapon equipped and the required skill already known. Shamans start with a 1-handed weapon and a shield, as they benefit more from the shield than they would from a 2-handed weapon.
    * Glancing Blows: The mage, warlock, and priest classes no longer have an increased chance for their melee attacks to be glancing blows; and the damage penalty due to their glancing blows is the same as for other classes.
    * Health and Mana Regeneration: These regeneration rates have been increased by up to 200% for low level characters. As a player's level increases, the regeneration rates gradually reduce, returning to normal rates at level 15.
    * Spell Mana Costs: These costs have been reduced for almost all lower level spell ranks. In general, if a spell decreased in cost with a higher level rank in patch 3.2.0, that spell now has the decreased cost at all ranks. In addition, spells learned before level 20 with reduced cast times and/or durations have even further reduced mana costs, proportionate to their reduction in cast time or damage.

Races: General

    * Racial Attribute Bonuses: These bonuses have been recalibrated to even out the amount of starting health on the various races. All races start with a standardized level of stamina, except for orcs, dwarves, and tauren who now start with 1 extra point of stamina. For each class, bonuses and penalties to all attributes have been adjusted so that each race has an equal attribute total.

Death Knights

    * Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle: There is now a 1-handed version of this rune in addition to the current 2-handed rune.
    * Talents
          o Unholy
                + Night of the Dead: Now reduces the damage your pet takes from area-of-effect damage by 45/90%, but no longer applies to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.

Druids

    * Pets
          o Avoidance (passive): Now reduces the damage your pets take from area-of-effect damage by 90%, but no longer applies to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.

Hunters

    * Misdirection: Redesigned. Instead of having finite charges, it now begins a 4-second timer when the hunter using Misdirection performs a threat-generating attack, during which all threat generated by the hunter goes to the friendly target. In addition, multiple hunters can now misdirect threat to the same friendly target simultaneously.
    * Talents
          o Beast Mastery
                + Intimidation: If the hunter's pet is in melee range of its target, the stun from Intimidation will now be applied immediately instead of on the pet's next swing or attack.
    * Pets
          o Avoidance: Now reduces the damage your pet takes from area-of-effect damage by 30/60/90%, but no longer applies to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.

Mages

    * Talents
          o Arcane
                + Arcane Empowerment: This talent now also grants 1/2/3% increased damage done by the mage's party or raid for 10 seconds after the mage gets a critical strike with Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, or Arcane Blast. This effect is exclusive with Ferocious Inspiration and Sanctified Retribution.
    * Pets
          o Avoidance (passive): Now reduces the damage your pets take from area-of-effect damage by 90%, but no longer applies to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.

Priests

    * Pet
          o Avoidance (passive): Now reduces the damage your pet takes from area-of-effect damage by 90%, but no longer applies to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.

Rogues

    * Dual Wield: Rogues now know this ability upon logging into the game at level 1.
    * Stealth: This ability no longer has multiple ranks. While active, the single rank of this ability (available at level 1) allows rogues to move at 70% movement speed.
    * Vanish: For the first second after this ability is used, neither Vanish nor Stealth can be broken by taking damage or being the victim of a hostile spell or ability.

Shamans

    * Fire Nova Totem: This totem has been replaced with a new spell, Fire Nova, which is available at the same ranks as the old Fire Nova Totem. Existing characters will automatically learn this new spell in place of the totem. With a Fire Totem active, shamans will be able to use Fire Nova (fire magic) to emit the same area-of-effect damage as the old Fire Nova Totem from the active Fire Totem, not consuming the totem in the process. Fire Nova will activate a 1.5-second global cooldown when used and has a 10-second spell cooldown. The caster must be within 30 yards of the totem to use this ability, but does not need to be within line of sight of the totem.
    * Talents
          o Elemental Combat
                + Improved Fire Nova Totem: Renamed Improved Fire Nova. This talent now provides an additional 10/20% damage to the spell and reduces the cooldown by 2/4 seconds.

Warlocks

    * Pets
          o Avoidance (passive): Now reduces the damage your pets take from area-of-effect damage by 90%, but no longer applies to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.
          o Summon Imp: This ability is now available from the trainer for level 1 warlocks and no longer requires a quest to learn.

Warriors

    * Victory Rush: This ability is now trainable at level 6.
    * Talents
          o Protection
                + Damage Shield: This ability will no longer trigger any chance-on-hit effects from the warrior or the opponent it damages.

User Interface

    * Quest Tracking Feature
          o This system is currently under development and is not fully functional.
    * Looking For Group System
          o This feature is undergoing several improvements and is not available for testing at this time.
    * For additional notes on Lua and XML changes please visit the UI & Macros forum.

Graphics

    * A new feature has been added to the D3D graphics engine to improve texture management (particularly for Windows XP users). This is currently enabled by default on the public test realms. For more information please visit our Test Realm forum.

Professions

    * Enchanting
          o Black Magic: This enchantment now sometimes increases haste rating for the caster rather than inflicting the caster's target with a damage-over-time effect. It is also now triggered by landing any harmful spell rather than inflicting damage with a spell.

Items

    * Glyphs
          o Death Knights
                + Glyph of Icy Touch: Instead of granting additional runic power, this glyph now causes Frost Fever to deal 20% additional damage.
          o Shamans
                + Glyph of Fire Nova Totem: Renamed Glyph of Fire Nova. This glyph now reduces the cooldown of Fire Nova by 3 seconds.

Bug Fixes

    * Druids
          o Rejuvenation: Rank 15 of this spell was providing a 15-second duration. It has been correctly reduced to 12 seconds.
    * Mages
          o Flame Strike: Some ranks of this spell had an incorrect cast time of 3 seconds. All ranks now share a 2-second cast time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on October 01, 2009, 02:17:26 PM
I know they were unhappy with pets/avoidance and pvp, but this pretty much moves pets back into the "will not be alive 5 seconds into any encounter" range with no other forms of defense against the rather large amount of AE damage found in some forms of PVP.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 01, 2009, 02:21:57 PM
Quote
Warlocks

    * Pets
          o Avoidance (passive): Now reduces the damage your pets take from area-of-effect damage by 90%, but no longer applies to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.
          o Summon Imp: This ability is now available from the trainer for level 1 warlocks and no longer requires a quest to learn.

Is honestly too much to just ask for better scaling for the damn pet?  Seriously, as a warlock, my defense relies on having my pet out.  Several key abilities are located on the pet.  Without it, I've got Demonic Circle!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 01, 2009, 02:26:42 PM
I lol at that fire nova change. LOL YOU HEAR?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 01, 2009, 02:29:13 PM
I know they were unhappy with pets/avoidance and pvp, but this pretty much moves pets back into the "will not be alive 5 seconds into any encounter" range with no other forms of defense against the rather large amount of AE damage found in some forms of PVP.
I think they need to give it a conditional scaling based on the type of pet.  Having 90% avoidance to AoE in PvP is pretty broken for a permanent pet, like Hunter pets or Warlock Combat pets (like a Doomguard or Felguard), since they do considerable damage, and fighting against them is almost like fighting against 2 people.    However, for temporary pets, like Treants, Mage elementals, Shaman wolves, and such, completly removing the AoE avoidance basicly makes them worthless.  Nothing like popping your Trees on someone only to have their 7k hp get instantly melted by 2 quick AoE's.

I think maybe having something like

- Warlock / Hunter pets get 40 or 50% avoidance
- Temporary pet get 70 or 80% avoidance

Either that, or temporary pets need a BIG increase in Hitpoint pools to compensate.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 01, 2009, 02:34:52 PM
Quote
    * Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle: There is now a 1-handed version of this rune in addition to the current 2-handed rune.

Looks like I might be going back to DW Tanking after all.  It would be really interesting if the 1H version of the rune slows down the attack speed of the weapon so DKs can get better use out of the current 1H tank weapons.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 01, 2009, 02:49:54 PM
I lol at that fire nova change. LOL YOU HEAR?

For a second I thought that the Improved FN talent with that stun would suddenly be useful, then I saw they removed the stun from the talent.  Still, talented and glyphed that thing will have a 3 second cooldown.  I have no idea if it would be worth it, though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 01, 2009, 02:58:05 PM
It gives shamans a more reliable aoe which is a good thing. Drop a magma toem and then start some fire nova spam, good times.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 01, 2009, 03:21:04 PM
Quote
    * Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle: There is now a 1-handed version of this rune in addition to the current 2-handed rune.

Looks like I might be going back to DW Tanking after all.  It would be really interesting if the 1H version of the rune slows down the attack speed of the weapon so DKs can get better use out of the current 1H tank weapons.

You better not roll on my Quel'Serrar.  :ye_gods:

Anyway, re: the "downranking" change, remember they're getting rid of spell ranks entirely in 4.0. This is just a temporary patch to fix the "my level 7 shaman casts 4 lightning bolts and is OOM and the mob still has 60% of its health left" problem.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 01, 2009, 03:44:08 PM
It gives shamans a more reliable aoe which is a good thing. Drop a magma toem and then start some fire nova spam, good times.

Yeah, it looks fun.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 01, 2009, 03:59:05 PM
My Treants have 4220 HP. That's like one divine storm.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 01, 2009, 04:01:03 PM
It gives shamans a more reliable aoe which is a good thing. Drop a magma toem and then start some fire nova spam, good times.

It doesn't solve the fundamental problem of shaman AE, which is that you have to run up and drop your totem in the middle of the mobs. Its vaguely useful in that you can still give your totem of wrath buff while doing it - although then you're again still making the choice to not maximize your AE potetial - but otherwise meh.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 01, 2009, 04:14:35 PM
Quote
    * Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle: There is now a 1-handed version of this rune in addition to the current 2-handed rune.

Looks like I might be going back to DW Tanking after all.  It would be really interesting if the 1H version of the rune slows down the attack speed of the weapon so DKs can get better use out of the current 1H tank weapons.

Yeah I was just thinking the same thing. *sigh* I hate dual wielding as a DK.


Quote
    * Misdirection: Redesigned. Instead of having finite charges, it now begins a 4-second timer when the hunter using Misdirection performs a threat-generating attack, during which all threat generated by the hunter goes to the friendly target. In addition, multiple hunters can now misdirect threat to the same friendly target simultaneously.

Nice change, with a revert back to the original Misdirection that was deemed to be way too over the top lo these many years ago.  I like it, but I bet they're going to be nerfing the aggro on Volley.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Montague on October 01, 2009, 04:15:41 PM
So... was anyone really complaining that level 1-15 was too hard? I'm kinda dumbfounded by that change.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 01, 2009, 04:18:05 PM
On casters you tend to run out of mana a lot.  Which is tiresome.  Not that you couldn't just buy cheap water, but no one really wants to sit down after killing a few mobs.

This would make me play my ally mage alt a bit more. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 01, 2009, 04:20:21 PM
So... was anyone really complaining that level 1-15 was too hard? I'm kinda dumbfounded by that change.


Yes, as a casting class it sucks giant donkey balls.


-edit-

is, it, all the same!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 01, 2009, 04:39:27 PM
So... was anyone really complaining that level 1-15 was too hard? I'm kinda dumbfounded by that change.

Before they change it, go level an orc or troll shaman from 1-8. Ever since they made the change where spells cost a % of base mana instead of a flat amount by rank, levels 6-7 have gotten excruciatingly painful, because spell damage only goes up when you get a new rank, but mana cost goes up every level. At level 7 as a shaman you can empty your entire mana bar into a single mob and it gets to you with over half its health bar left - and because there's no gear with stats on it you're stuck with your base mana pool with no real way to improve it so you can get more casts.

It isn't as obvious as a draenei because their quests (and quest rewards) are better, but as a horde shaman it is really awful for the last couple levels before you get rank 2 of lightning bolt at level 8.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 01, 2009, 04:40:46 PM
Quote
    * Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle: There is now a 1-handed version of this rune in addition to the current 2-handed rune.

Looks like I might be going back to DW Tanking after all.  It would be really interesting if the 1H version of the rune slows down the attack speed of the weapon so DKs can get better use out of the current 1H tank weapons.

You could just use a slow-ass DPS weapon instead, since you'd be getting an ass ton of defense with that rune.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 01, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
Quick, go exploit someone looking to offload a tankard.  Beer tanking!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 01, 2009, 04:47:36 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47508

Has a socket to cram a 30 stamina gem into, its a mace so you get your expertise bonus as a human DK, has some hit rating which you can't really get enough of as a dual wielding tank who has some stuff that goes off the spellhit cap, and the agility even turns into a little dodge.

Two of them would be 120 stamina out of your weapons with epic gems, that's solidly competitive with the available 2hs at the same gear level (219).

The model is even nice.

EDIT: NOT THAT I HAVE ANY REASON TO TALK YOU INTO IT  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 01, 2009, 06:03:34 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47508

Has a socket to cram a 30 stamina gem into, its a mace so you get your expertise bonus as a human DK, has some hit rating which you can't really get enough of as a dual wielding tank who has some stuff that goes off the spellhit cap, and the agility even turns into a little dodge.

Two of them would be 120 stamina out of your weapons with epic gems, that's solidly competitive with the available 2hs at the same gear level (219).

The model is even nice.

EDIT: NOT THAT I HAVE ANY REASON TO TALK YOU INTO IT  :grin:

Yes, because it's not like I haven't been using that mace as one of my two DPS weapons for over a month now, Captain Perceptive.  :roll:

The reason I brought up attack speed is because I'm wondering how they'll balance that rune for 1H weapons.  If it adds straight defense like the the 2H rune, then you'll either have a rune that doesn't add enough defense to a slow 1H DPS weapon so as not to overpower a DK using an actual tank weapon or it'll add a metric asston of defense to a faster 1H tank weapon if it adds enough defense to make it worthwhile to use the slower DPS weapon for tanking.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 01, 2009, 06:09:59 PM
At some point DW frost wanted fast weapons right? I have this vague memory that they changed something to nerf fast weapons for DKs - I thought it was rune strike but I went to look up what it did today and it seems like it should favor fast weapons, much like heroic strike, which would make the normal 1.5-1.7 type tank weapons good.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 01, 2009, 06:10:34 PM
I assume the two weapons being enchanted with that rune will equal the 2h rune. That's how the parry ones work. Nothing weird needed.

Basically, if you need the gargoyle one to hit the defense cap when using a 2h weapon, putting it on both weapons you're DWing with would have the same effect. There's not really a reason to worry about someone putting it on a tank weapon and being "overpowered," because you'd still prefer tank plate over dps plate for the stamina/avoidance stats.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 01, 2009, 07:05:48 PM
I know they were unhappy with pets/avoidance and pvp, but this pretty much moves pets back into the "will not be alive 5 seconds into any encounter" range with no other forms of defense against the rather large amount of AE damage found in some forms of PVP.
I think they need to give it a conditional scaling based on the type of pet.  Having 90% avoidance to AoE in PvP is pretty broken for a permanent pet, like Hunter pets or Warlock Combat pets (like a Doomguard or Felguard), since they do considerable damage, and fighting against them is almost like fighting against 2 people.    However, for temporary pets, like Treants, Mage elementals, Shaman wolves, and such, completly removing the AoE avoidance basicly makes them worthless.  Nothing like popping your Trees on someone only to have their 7k hp get instantly melted by 2 quick AoE's.

I think maybe having something like

- Warlock / Hunter pets get 40 or 50% avoidance
- Temporary pet get 70 or 80% avoidance

Either that, or temporary pets need a BIG increase in Hitpoint pools to compensate.

Using a felguard is a bad example.  At that point, the player has invested enough points into demonology that the pet is the warlock's greatest strength and greatest weakness.  While the pet is out, the warlock is very powerful, once that pet is dead, the warlock is a weak mage with no real escape mechanism.  For some classes, killing the pet is hard, but for others (warlocks, priests, and paladins), the pet is a minor roadblock.   That being said, warlocks stand out in the pet crowd, even from hunters, in that our we rely on having our pet out for basic defense (Soul Link) and our pets provide many of our basic abilities.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 01, 2009, 07:10:45 PM
At some point DW frost wanted fast weapons right? I have this vague memory that they changed something to nerf fast weapons for DKs - I thought it was rune strike but I went to look up what it did today and it seems like it should favor fast weapons, much like heroic strike, which would make the normal 1.5-1.7 type tank weapons good.

DK strikes work off straight weapon damage.  It's not normalized for the speed of the weapon.  That means you want the weapons with the highest actual damage, which are almost always going to be the slowest weapons given similar dps.

If you look at the description of Heroic Strike it just says 'increases melee damage by X' while DK strikes always specify 'X% weapon damage + Y'.  Don't ask me why it's different, but it is.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 01, 2009, 10:18:59 PM
DK strikes work off straight weapon damage.  It's not normalized for the speed of the weapon.  That means you want the weapons with the highest actual damage, which are almost always going to be the slowest weapons given similar dps.

If you look at the description of Heroic Strike it just says 'increases melee damage by X' while DK strikes always specify 'X% weapon damage + Y'.  Don't ask me why it's different, but it is.

Your concept of normalization is wrong.  No "Next Melee" attacks are ever normalized, because they in fact tend to be so naturally (being limited by weapon speed).  The formulae for weapon damage per auto-attack is as follow:

Code:
Result = Weapon Damage + (Attack Power / 14) x Weapon Speed

The obvious problem is instant attacks, which are independent of weapon speed, receive massive damage increases when using a slow weapon due to both the higher base weapon damage and the slower speed which acts as a multiplier for attack power.  Thus the formula for most instant attacks now employs a fixed weapon speed dependent upon the weapon type rather than the actual weapon speed, weapon damage as used in this formula remains unaffected.

Weapon TypeNormalized Speed
Two-Hander3.3
One-Hander2.4
Dagger1.7
Ranged Weapon   2.8

Normalizing any "next melee" attack would be redundant and it is simply not done.  A few instant attacks exist which also creatively evade the rule, being either based on weapon DPS or pure attack power, both of which are speed agnostic and therefore don't scale wildly with weapon speed.  The current fate of Slam I am not aware of, but it evaded the initial round of normalization and may remain one of the sole weapon damage based attack that is not normalized whatsoever.

The difference between Rune Strike and Heroic Strike is the coefficients on weapon damage and attack power versus a flat damage increase per attack.  What Blizzard was trying to do is make Rune Strike scale better, with obvious success.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 02, 2009, 12:45:33 AM
It gives shamans a more reliable aoe which is a good thing. Drop a magma toem and then start some fire nova spam, good times.

It doesn't solve the fundamental problem of shaman AE, which is that you have to run up and drop your totem in the middle of the mobs. Its vaguely useful in that you can still give your totem of wrath buff while doing it - although then you're again still making the choice to not maximize your AE potetial - but otherwise meh.
Shaman do have a distinct advantage over EVERY other AoE capable class in the game however.  100% threatless AoE.  Fire Totem AoE generates absolutely no threat, so you can drop it in the middle of a giant swarm of spawning adds and never need to worry that the tank not landing a hit or two on ALL of them is going to end up getting you killed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 03, 2009, 02:16:17 AM
IF THIS WERE THE DRUDGE REPORT, THE SIRENS WOULD BE HERE

On the PTR, COI is on DR!  CHRISTMAS HAS COME EARLY!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 03, 2009, 02:29:51 AM
Not a big deal to me, as in pvp I am probably the single least affected-by-COI spec (I can charge/intercept/intervene out of it, and duration is reduced 30% besides) but I bet Fordel will be pleased.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 03, 2009, 02:51:17 AM
Chains is (was?) such total bullshit. No damage Cap, No DR, No cooldown, ranged, instant root.

"But it's just a snaaaaaare"
 :awesome_for_real:


-edit- Don't even start that bullshit argument that is uses precious runes and costs DPS. Those are runes that weren't being used for DPS regardless because you were still 20-30 yards out from whatever potential DPS target you had in mind, and BEHOLD, each DK spec has a second melee range snare that is part of their normal DPS rotation.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on October 03, 2009, 06:09:10 AM
Oh hey, yet another DK nerf because Blizzard is balancing around PvP. That makes a fucking change.  :roll:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 03, 2009, 06:44:35 AM
Oh hey, yet another DK nerf because Blizzard is balancing around PvP. That makes a fucking change.  :roll:
The only fight where this nerf would affect you would be Faction Champs, which is explicitly supposed to be like a PVP fight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 03, 2009, 09:19:52 AM
Yeah, of all the DK nerfs over the last year, this one bothers me not at all.  All the other snares/ roots are on DR I never understood why COI wasn't.   


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on October 03, 2009, 09:34:03 AM
Oh hai, COI is not on DR until 3.3 drops?   :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on October 03, 2009, 09:45:34 AM
Being the skill a flagged level 80 used to harrass me with after I tagged him, good.  (Bastard started bouncing around me when I had like six mobs on me.  No way I couldn't miss him and not die to the mobs.)  I ragequit so hard after that BS.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 03, 2009, 10:47:27 AM
All the other snares/ roots are on DR

No they aren't.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: ezrast on October 04, 2009, 02:06:41 AM
Quote
                + Arcane Empowerment: This talent now also grants 1/2/3% increased damage done by the mage's party or raid for 10 seconds after the mage gets a critical strike with Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, or Arcane Blast. This effect is exclusive with Ferocious Inspiration and Sanctified Retribution.
Does arc really still need help or are they just taunting me?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 04, 2009, 02:12:21 AM
Quote
                + Arcane Empowerment: This talent now also grants 1/2/3% increased damage done by the mage's party or raid for 10 seconds after the mage gets a critical strike with Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, or Arcane Blast. This effect is exclusive with Ferocious Inspiration and Sanctified Retribution.
Does arc really still need help or are they just taunting me?
They're just spreading that buff around.  That particular one's somewhat hard to come by because only one spec each of two classes provides it and BM is a very unpopular PVE spec.  Arcane had a serious lack of raid buffs compared to fire or even frost, so at least arcane now provides something.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 04, 2009, 03:35:49 AM
Arcane was pretty good before 3.2, but I'm not complaining.

Also, people raid as frost?


EDIT


Also, Blizzard needs to do something about...

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1143749/Popular.png)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 04, 2009, 07:19:42 AM
I fail to see the problem.

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 04, 2009, 07:54:11 AM
I blame Runescroll of Fortitude.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Malakili on October 04, 2009, 09:58:46 AM

Also, Blizzard needs to do something about...


I think this is why hybrids used to be not as good as base classes in each of their roles.  Even in vanilla WoW i was happy with my druid that I barely ever alted, and while now I have a lot of alts just because.... I would more than ever never NEED any other character than my druid, I can literally fill any role in the game, and well.  That being said...not everyone wants to play as an elf than turns into animals.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on October 04, 2009, 11:17:48 AM
That being said...not everyone wants to play as an elf than turns into animals.

The adding of worgens will remove my block on wanting to try out a druid class. I simply won't play an elf in any game.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on October 04, 2009, 11:52:20 AM
I just want IC to drop so some people in my guild stop wanting to do totc heroic. The hard modes are ridiculously unfun. Yeah, I like the same encounter with three times the damage and marginally better loot that will be worse than normal IC10 loot.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Signe on October 04, 2009, 11:55:24 AM
Cows can turn into animals.  (http://www.democraticwarrior.com/forum/images/smilies/Moo.gif)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 04, 2009, 12:03:35 PM
MMO's have evolved.  It used to be that you had to choose between being outstanding at one thing or ok at doing a few things.  Blizzard has closed this gap by allowing hybrids to also excel at several roles... or at least excel to a point where they can fill that role without much loss. 

I'm guessing that games will ultimately move to a place where groups will be looking for a 5th person rather than a particular class.  Beyond pet classes, I think that every class should have access to a dps tree, a tanking tree, and a healing tree.  You should also be allowed to have access to all three specs for a fee (like dual spec now) and a gear manager able to cope with the changes.  The next logical step is to then make gear class specific so that you don't have people needing everything because they're greedy bastards. 



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on October 04, 2009, 12:19:01 PM
MMO's have evolved.  It used to be that you had to choose between being outstanding at one thing or ok at doing a few things.  Blizzard has closed this gap by allowing hybrids to also excel at several roles... or at least excel to a point where they can fill that role without much loss. 

This is a good point. While the hybrid/pure class distinction is an interesting choice, it tends to push people to picking a class based on the role they (think they) want to play, and having to make the decision at level 1.  It's a little bit of a risk to make hybrids as good as the pure classes because then (so the story goes), why would anyone be a pure class when they can be a hybrid and do any one of a variety of roles?

But it turns out the risk was probably overstated, because people still play pure classes.  I, for example, play a warrior because I like tanking though I've never been able to stick to a druid or paladin.  I guess the hybrids ended up being good for those who are ADD about their role, but those who only care about one thing, or just enjoy the archetype, still play the pure classes.

So you have people playing what they want rather than what they feel forced into.  Win.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 04, 2009, 12:58:06 PM
If DKs are Hybrids, so are Warriors.

Just sayin'.

Seriously, though, the only PURE classes left are Mages, Rogues, Hunters and Locks.  They can spec into 3 DPS specs and nothing else.  Sure one may survive better than the others so you can call it a "PVP" spec, but it's still DPS.  They won't be healing a group or tanking a raid boss in it. (Outside of special fights Blizz designs with that intent.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 04, 2009, 01:10:08 PM
Blizzard is just trying to make wow fun.

Why pick barbarian over amazon in diablo? they're both dps.  They're trying to move away from classes as roles in a group to class as preferred playstyles.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kail on October 04, 2009, 01:10:36 PM
I'm guessing that games will ultimately move to a place where groups will be looking for a 5th person rather than a particular class.  Beyond pet classes, I think that every class should have access to a dps tree, a tanking tree, and a healing tree.  You should also be allowed to have access to all three specs for a fee (like dual spec now) and a gear manager able to cope with the changes.

At that point, why even have classes?  The main point of them (I'd argue) is to set out clear roles both for what the player needs to do.  You get in a group with two death knights, a priest, mage, and a hunter, and the only question is which DK is going to tank and which is going to DPS.  You get in a group with five people who can do anything, and you have to wrangle around with who can and is willing to do what, and if he's doing this then he can't do that, so someone else will have to, but they don't have the gear, so a third guy can full the first hole if someone can do his old job etc. etc.  You'll still have players (and characters, assuming this is a gear based MMO) who can't heal, you just won't be able to tell who they are until you're just about ready to start.

Also, why exclude pet classes from this?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on October 04, 2009, 01:12:21 PM
Read the post before yours.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 04, 2009, 01:14:32 PM
Blizzard is just trying to make wow fun.

Why pick barbarian over amazon in diablo? they're both dps.  They're trying to move away from classes as roles in a group to class as preferred playstyles.

Which can only be a good thing, IMO.   I'm hoping they figure out a way to let clothies tank and implement it into the next hero class.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 04, 2009, 01:15:24 PM
Also, why exclude pet classes from this?

Pet classes are largely designed as an option for solo players.  They need to have spec options that cater to the solo style of play.  At least this is my opinion on the matter. If you don't intend them to be solo classes, then they should have the same options available to them as well.  I agree with you.  

I agree with you on the rest.  The only reason that I see for the existence of classes is to help some people build logical (and useful) skill sets.  If MMO's became a purely skill-based affair, they would ultimately end up as class games anyway.  The moment that someone with a spreadsheet found the most powerful skill combos, you'd be back to classes again anyway.  They'd just have a different name attached to them than say "Rogue" or "Priest".  

Similarly, having class templates limits the number of ways that players can break their toon.  CSR issue avoidance is a good thing. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 04, 2009, 01:59:14 PM
Seriously, though, the only PURE classes left are Mages, Rogues, Hunters and Locks.

Without exception these four are also among the most under-represented on my server.  Really, they need to give every class either a tank or healing role if not both.


You'll still have players (and characters, assuming this is a gear based MMO) who can't heal, you just won't be able to tell who they are until you're just about ready to start.

Also, why exclude pet classes from this?

  • More standardized gear sets across all specs and classes (It really don't take that much lorelol to say that a Paladin with 5k Strength should be dropping some vicious healbombs).
  • Tier gear that transforms based on spec/stance for when different stat preferences are absolutely necessary.
  • Hit and crit.  Make them go away or give them a number of uses which changes based on context (so healers can use hit gear, without making heals miss-capable).
  • Pet classes either tank/heal remotely via the pet (send it in, DPS as per usual, possibly an ability to transfer your threat to the pet), or gain "Eyes of the Beast" type abilities that grant control of a utility pet that when under this effect gains 100% of player's stats, or the class gains tanking ability naturally (Gogo Warlock Drain Tank!).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 04, 2009, 02:24:15 PM
I don't really think they need to give every class a tanking and healing tree simply because sure, lots of people are playing hybrids, but they're playing those hybrids mostly to DPS. :P

It would be nice if every class could do at least two roles, I dunno if they need to be able to do all three. It works for druids because they have forms to limit what they can do while filling their role, but paladins have been a balancing problem for as long as I can remember.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 04, 2009, 02:34:17 PM
It would be nice if every class could do at least two roles, I dunno if they need to be able to do all three. It works for druids because they have forms to limit what they can do while filling their role, but paladins have been a balancing problem for as long as I can remember.

Which brings up the old question: Why do classes need to be balanced in a PvE game?  I don't think they need to be.  PvE is all about whacking foozles and collecting loot. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 04, 2009, 02:35:26 PM
Well, for starters, people who play the shitty class at whacking foozles and collecting loot will be pissed off they suck at it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 04, 2009, 03:29:35 PM
I'd rather the pure dps stay DPS.  I've taken up a warlock as a main and am finishing up leveling my old forgotten rogue (parked at 68 since midway through TBC). I'll be making a goblin hunter with the xpac.  I've relegated my DK and shaman to mere crafting/daily bots.  I've decided not to level my druid, which already has epic flying.  

I'm sick of people asking me to tank or heal.  I don't like doing either.  I don't like playing a class that can even do that anymore because my DPS will be affected indirectly by my ability to take a beating or play GRID/clique whack-a-mole.  Plus, it's a lot easier as a time-starved player if you can focus on one roll without having the others even available.  


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 04, 2009, 04:09:28 PM
I'm sick of people asking me to tank or heal.  I don't like doing either.  

Few people like doing these things.  They do it because it's a steady way to get groups and/or they enjoy controlling the flow of the action. 

MMO's will improve greatly when the healer/tank need goes away.  I don't see this happening as long as they cling to the diku model. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ragnoros on October 04, 2009, 05:12:13 PM
I'm sick of people asking me to tank or heal.  I don't like doing either.  

Few people like doing these things.  They do it because it's a steady way to get groups and/or they enjoy controlling the flow of the action.  

MMO's will improve greatly when the healer/tank need goes away.  I don't see this happening as long as they cling to the diku model.  

I'd Like to think that Blizzard's next MMO will forgo the Diku model. Because frankly they would be hard pressed to do a better job at it than they already have. Sure they could just reskin WoW with Starcraft or whatever. But I'd like to hope they have bigger plans. Either way I doubt it will have traditional healer/tank/dps rolls.

The Death Knight is a good example of roll blurring/simplification . You get DPS stance, Tank stance, and PvP Stance, more or less anyway, and no matter what stance you are in you are using basically the same skills. The only thing standing in your way is gear, which is really the biggest cockblack in WoW, beyond class restrictions or any other issues. They could quite easily make a class that was able to fill any roll with one set of gear using a similar system. Heck retrofitting a Warlock would be cake.

Stance one is Heal, now in exchange for (much) less damage your skills leach life (enough to be a "proper" healer) to your party or raid.
Stance two is Tank, gives you permanent demon form, with your caster stats becoming your demon's tanking stats.
Stance three is DPS, PEW PEW.

With the introduction of the DK this scenario seems a lot less far fetched than it might have been in the past. While Cataclysm is revamping old zones rather than old game play-- logically a better choice for attracting and retaining players--I would be very surprised if the following expansion is just five/ten more levels and associated content.

/derail


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 04, 2009, 05:13:48 PM
Well, for starters, people who play the shitty class at whacking foozles and collecting loot will be pissed off they suck at it.


To say nothing of the fact most encounters in WoW demand some kind of minimum DPS benchmark and utility.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 04, 2009, 05:28:56 PM
Few people like doing these things.  They do it because it's a steady way to get groups and/or they enjoy controlling the flow of the action. 

MMO's will improve greatly when the healer/tank need goes away.  I don't see this happening as long as they cling to the diku model. 

I know plenty of people who enjoy tanking and healing; hardly a 'few' relative to all the people I play with. It's a different style of gameplay to DPS, which I find frankly dull and less engaging than healing. What you assert reflects your particular bias, rather than a true statement about how people like to play the game.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 04, 2009, 05:51:35 PM
I know plenty of people who enjoy tanking and healing; hardly a 'few' relative to all the people I play with. It's a different style of gameplay to DPS, which I find frankly dull and less engaging than healing. What you assert reflects your particular bias, rather than a true statement about how people like to play the game.

What do you see played more: tank specced toons, healing specced toons, or dps spec toons? 

I'm going to bet that more people play dps specced toons as their main than both tanks and healers combined.  You know this just by watching LFG or looking at shouts for groups. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 04, 2009, 05:55:29 PM
Sheep - A lot of what you said re: gear is starting to happen in Cata with the Mastery stat.  All we need now is the final step towards normalizing the stats a CLASS uses rather than a Spec uses.

The class role thing, yeah we've already seen rogues tank in BC days.  I had a friend who built a defense leather set and tanked some of the easier heroics. It was hilarious.  Those are the same classes disappearing on my server, too, and I imagine all others.  Blizz just needs to recognize this is why these classes are disappearing and shift towards implementing such changes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 04, 2009, 06:04:08 PM
I love tanking 5-mans but hate tanking raids.  Raid tanking involves so much more bullshit and lets you use so few of your abilities that I'd rather 4-button DPS than tanking.  Plus, you don't get yelled at for messing a button or some stupid small flashy mechanic you didn't know about when you dps the way you do as a raid tank.  Instead you get laughed at and given shit.  It's much less stress, so I go for that role.  How many others do it for the same reason?

Healing just takes a special kind of mental disorder to enjoy.  Most healers I've known do it for the reason you listed, Nebu, and said they'd much rather DPS.  For every 3 of them I've come across one that did it for the adoration (Healers always seem to have this group of folks that love them and have always been at the center of the guild melodrama I've witnessed) and maybe one that said they really really like it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 04, 2009, 06:10:00 PM
Healing just takes a special kind of mental disorder to enjoy.  Most healers I've known do it for the reason you listed, Nebu, and said they'd much rather DPS.  For every 3 of them I've come across one that did it for the adoration (Healers always seem to have this group of folks that love them and have always been at the center of the guild melodrama I've witnessed) and maybe one that said they really really like it.

I almost always play healers in MMOs.  In EQ, I did it because I thought it was what I enjoyed.  In every MMO since, I've played healer because I hate playing in groups with shitty healers and found that playing the healer was the easiest way to avoid that.  Now I'm the shitty healer in the group!  :why_so_serious:

Let's be honest here.  As a healer you spend your entire play session staring at the interface while the rest of the group gets to watch the action unfold.  Until healers are allowed to heal interactively rather than reactively, healing in MMO's will continue to suck.  


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 04, 2009, 06:26:45 PM
Without a doubt.  Disc priests are the closest to it, but they're still staring at the interface 99% of the time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 04, 2009, 06:59:11 PM
I love tanking 5-mans but hate tanking raids.  Raid tanking involves so much more bullshit and lets you use so few of your abilities that I'd rather 4-button DPS than tanking.  Plus, you don't get yelled at for messing a button or some stupid small flashy mechanic you didn't know about when you dps the way you do as a raid tank.  Instead you get laughed at and given shit.  It's much less stress, so I go for that role.  How many others do it for the same reason?

Healing just takes a special kind of mental disorder to enjoy.  Most healers I've known do it for the reason you listed, Nebu, and said they'd much rather DPS.  For every 3 of them I've come across one that did it for the adoration (Healers always seem to have this group of folks that love them and have always been at the center of the guild melodrama I've witnessed) and maybe one that said they really really like it.

My Paladin is Prot/Holy.  You mess up as a tank, everyone dies.  Your gear has to be top-notch even in pugs.  And if you're not in a guild already, they already have their tanks, so you're probably not getting subbed into their raids.

And Holy I spend the entire time looking at Grid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tannhauser on October 04, 2009, 06:59:32 PM
I am another person who plays shitty healers.  I honestly like healing, most of the time I can sit back and  let the other guys fight for my xp and loot.
Also, I don't want to tank and dps'ers are a dime a dozen.  Also I get groups fast because the healer spot is the hardest one to fill.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 04, 2009, 07:07:19 PM
Most people play DPS because it's the most self sufficient.

There is pretty much no situation in game where moar dps is bad. Or it's irrelevant or helpless.


You can have too many tanks and healers and both specs suffer from group dependency or lack of role in some aspect of the game. I see a lot more tanks around these days, simply because farming or pvping as a tank spec isn't totally brutal.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 04, 2009, 07:23:28 PM
You can have too many tanks and healers and both specs suffer from group dependency or lack of role in some aspect of the game. I see a lot more tanks around these days, simply because farming or pvping as a tank spec isn't totally brutal.

This.  I remember booting up Wrath and saying 'Thank god, I can solo well!'. 

I stil remember fighting this mob in Terrokar Forest.  The mob itself was essentially a tree druid with the instant rolling hots that come with the class.  Utter fucking stalemate.  I could not put out enough damage to kill it before the Hots healed it, but it couldn't kill me because of Seal of Light procs.

AoE farming was always fun, but against a single target?  My prot pally was a bunch of shit.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on October 04, 2009, 07:46:46 PM
I honestly think more people prefer to play dps characters than tanks or healers. My personal experience matches Nebu's, except that I hated shitty tanks, so now I'm the tank (DK Tank, Prot warrior just hit 80 and I'm probably picking up my mid-20s pally and speccing him prot as well).

Almost all players who are new to MMOs roll DPS as their first character. All my RL friends who picked up WoW as their first MMO ended up as mages, locks and rogues.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Hawkbit on October 04, 2009, 08:24:10 PM
It's because tanks can't be passive players and DPS can.  I've done both; I know how easy it is to screw around on DPS.  Not as a tank though.  98% of tanks lead instances and set the pace. 

That, and tanking is pretty fucking thankless. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 04, 2009, 08:57:41 PM
You're clearly not a Prot Paladin.  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 04, 2009, 09:02:37 PM
Prot pally was zzzzzz in BC.  Toos out a few concs, keep holy shield up and taunt if things get away.   I hear it's not as easy in LK raids, but is even more OP in Heroics.  I can't see how.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 04, 2009, 09:11:41 PM
Once you got past X gear point, it's just a matter of mashing the 969 cast sequence macro in 5 mans. TBC was even better/worse depending on your view point.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on October 04, 2009, 09:12:34 PM
I honestly think more people prefer to play dps characters than tanks or healers. My personal experience matches Nebu's, except that I hated shitty tanks, so now I'm the tank (DK Tank, Prot warrior just hit 80 and I'm probably picking up my mid-20s pally and speccing him prot as well).

Almost all players who are new to MMOs roll DPS as their first character. All my RL friends who picked up WoW as their first MMO ended up as mages, locks and rogues.

My first WoW character was a night elven warrior. Mainly because I didn't want to be a human (play one in real life, after all), and it was the only NE class that interested me. I usually play tanks in MMRPGs. Big mistake. One of THE most sucktastic leveling experiences I've ever had. When I eventually hit 60, I was fury and things weren't too bad, but TBC killed it completely. Tanking in TBC was just a painful experience in general and was pure shit for warriors in particular. So was fury. So was arms. Goodbye warrior...

So I rolled a shaman. Went enhance, since that's what I wanted to do in these games (beat on things with weapons), and the rest is history. Lot more fun, and leveling was pretty easy--aside from that bit between the RFK axe and when shamans get DW. Nowadays, I have several tanks again, since WotLK pretty much fixed the day-to-day play thing. Tanking still sucks, but it's not nearly as bad as it was in the last expansion.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 04, 2009, 09:22:13 PM
Prot pally was zzzzzz in BC.  Toos out a few concs, keep holy shield up and taunt if things get away.   I hear it's not as easy in LK raids, but is even more OP in Heroics.  I can't see how.

In BC: Seal Righteousness, Consecrate, Holy Shield, Righteous Defense if it goes bad.  Righteous Defense would misfire every now and then and you'd curse your life as a pally.  If you weren't taking enough damage, your mana would eventually dip into nothingness.  On a single target, you were far less effective.  Silences completely locked you out from doing anything. Oh, spell power and Intellect on gear.

In Wrath: 969 rotation, keep Divine Plea up - which generally means sprinting from pull to pull, Hand of Reckoning is the greatest taunt ever.  Hell, with the changes to BoSanc, we don't even have the issue of whether to choose that or Kings anymore.  We're still shit for magic damage, silences suck ass for threat, but we're in a great spot for raids, and absolute gods in Heroics.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on October 04, 2009, 10:10:54 PM
Tanking in wotlk kinda sucks right now if you're a warrior since all of the hardmode content requires near precognition to know when to bust your cooldowns. Damage in most of ulduar and all of heroic totc is so xxxtreme you have to use CDs like they're your regular rotation. This sucks since it is literally what blizz said they did not want to do.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 04, 2009, 10:22:54 PM
Tanking in wotlk kinda sucks right now if you're a warrior since all of the hardmode content requires near precognition to know when to bust your cooldowns. Damage in most of ulduar and all of heroic totc is so xxxtreme you have to use CDs like they're your regular rotation. This sucks since it is literally what blizz said they did not want to do.


But the cooldowns on Divine Protection (Holy Shield Wall), Divine Shield and Lay on Hands are so low now, there's no reason not to use them.  Lay on Hands went from being used once in a blue moon in BC, to whenever I felt like it.

I'm unsure how Warrior cooldowns are.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 04, 2009, 10:35:36 PM
I'm unsure how Warrior cooldowns are.

Not good.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 04, 2009, 10:45:10 PM
Quote
but we're in a great spot for raids
That's an understatement.  Protadins are so absurdly and obviously overpowered compared to other tanks by every single possible metric that the only remaining explanation is that Blizzard is trying to see how overpowered they have to make them to get top guilds to abandon the warrior tanks they've been using for 5 years.

---

Almost every tank or healer I know also has a DPS spec except for the PVPers that maintain a PVP heal spec which doesn't help the supply at all.  I kind of feel bad whenever I DPS the daily heroic on my tank char because I know in my heart that I'm damning someone else in my guild to a terrible pug tank (oh god pug tanks are SO BAD I didn't know I DIDN'T KNOW). 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 04, 2009, 11:04:33 PM
Quote
but we're in a great spot for raids
That's an understatement.  Protadins are so absurdly and obviously overpowered compared to other tanks by every single possible metric that the only remaining explanation is that Blizzard is trying to see how overpowered they have to make them to get top guilds to abandon the warrior tanks they've been using for 5 years.

Only thing I'd probably fix is Ardent Defender and taking it back to what it was is useless, as it was frequently leapfrogged.  So they'd have to come up with something completely different for the slot.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 05, 2009, 12:40:35 AM
Only thing I'd probably fix is Ardent Defender and taking it back to what it was is useless, as it was frequently leapfrogged.  So they'd have to come up with something completely different for the slot.
You'd need to nerf more than that to bring them into line with all of the other tanks, or else massively buff feral druids, DKs, and warriors.

-Paladins do more single target and AOE threat than any other tank.
-Paladins bring a wider variety of buffs than any other tank (kings, might(potentially improved), wisdom, and sanc)
-Paladins apply their attack power debuff just by facerolling on their keyboard, while a druid or warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds AND would have to spent 5 precious talent points to get what a paladin gets for two AND has to just pray it doesn't get resisted.
-Paladins apply their attack speed debuff by just doing their standard rotation whereas a warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds and pray it doesn't get resisted.
-Paladins can bring the JOL or JOW debuffs, both of which are a significant benefit to the raid.
-Paladins have not one but two ranged taunts on an 8 second cooldown each, one of which hits as hard as Heroic Throw, a one-minute warrior cooldown.
-Paladins have the best mitigation on trash and in heroics because they realistically block every single incoming hit from every mob.  I have sometimes healed protadin tanks in heroics where I did not have to cast a single heal on them in boss fights.
-Paladins do more DPS while tanking than any other tank.
-Paladins are the only tank that can cleanse any debuffs off of themselves while tanking.

That the current argent defender gives them the best EH of any tank by a wide margin is just the icing on the cake.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 05, 2009, 12:54:34 AM
I know plenty of people who enjoy tanking and healing; hardly a 'few' relative to all the people I play with. It's a different style of gameplay to DPS, which I find frankly dull and less engaging than healing. What you assert reflects your particular bias, rather than a true statement about how people like to play the game.

What do you see played more: tank specced toons, healing specced toons, or dps spec toons? 

I'm going to bet that more people play dps specced toons as their main than both tanks and healers combined.  You know this just by watching LFG or looking at shouts for groups. 

Given that the ratio of dps:tank or dps:healer builds is heavily skewed this isn't a fair question; the layout of the classes is innately prone to generating more DPS. This doesn't mean that the number of people who play and like to play healers and/or tanks is insignificant.

I almost always play healers in MMOs.  In EQ, I did it because I thought it was what I enjoyed.  In every MMO since, I've played healer because I hate playing in groups with shitty healers and found that playing the healer was the easiest way to avoid that.  Now I'm the shitty healer in the group!  :why_so_serious:

Let's be honest here.  As a healer you spend your entire play session staring at the interface while the rest of the group gets to watch the action unfold.  Until healers are allowed to heal interactively rather than reactively, healing in MMO's will continue to suck.  

When I play DPS I spend my whole time staring at my cooldown monitors and I'm a lot less flexible in where I get to be and what I have to do. While being a healer does rely more on the interface; good interfaces can minimise this. I play healer and DPS on two toons and I get to spectate more as a healer than a DPS. Good healers are watching what's going on anyway.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 05, 2009, 02:56:20 AM
Only thing I'd probably fix is Ardent Defender and taking it back to what it was is useless, as it was frequently leapfrogged.  So they'd have to come up with something completely different for the slot.
You'd need to nerf more than that to bring them into line with all of the other tanks, or else massively buff feral druids, DKs, and warriors.

-Paladins do more single target and AOE threat than any other tank.
-Paladins bring a wider variety of buffs than any other tank (kings, might(potentially improved), wisdom, and sanc)
-Paladins apply their attack power debuff just by facerolling on their keyboard, while a druid or warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds AND would have to spent 5 precious talent points to get what a paladin gets for two AND has to just pray it doesn't get resisted.
-Paladins apply their attack speed debuff by just doing their standard rotation whereas a warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds and pray it doesn't get resisted.
-Paladins can bring the JOL or JOW debuffs, both of which are a significant benefit to the raid.
-Paladins have not one but two ranged taunts on an 8 second cooldown each, one of which hits as hard as Heroic Throw, a one-minute warrior cooldown.
-Paladins have the best mitigation on trash and in heroics because they realistically block every single incoming hit from every mob.  I have sometimes healed protadin tanks in heroics where I did not have to cast a single heal on them in boss fights.
-Paladins do more DPS while tanking than any other tank.
-Paladins are the only tank that can cleanse any debuffs off of themselves while tanking.

That the current argent defender gives them the best EH of any tank by a wide margin is just the icing on the cake.

Some of those are whining just to be whining, imo. Some of those things are just part of the class (JoL/W, for example) and while they're nice, no one is saying "we need a paladin TANK for <blah>." They may want a paladin, but they don't care what kind, so I don't really think it counts as "omg paladin tanks need to be nerfed."

That is, incidently, part of why I don't think classes should be able to do all three roles in the style of the paladin. You get people sniffling about Standard Issue Class Abilities as a reason they're overpowered for Role X, Y or Z.

When I play DPS I spend my whole time staring at my cooldown monitors and I'm a lot less flexible in where I get to be and what I have to do. While being a healer does rely more on the interface; good interfaces can minimise this. I play healer and DPS on two toons and I get to spectate more as a healer than a DPS. Good healers are watching what's going on anyway.

It's even worse when you're a tank, I find. You may know what's happening in a fight, but you don't SEE what's happening in the fight, usually. It's especially bad when you have to tank as a bear with your ass to the wall. ><


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on October 05, 2009, 06:21:05 AM
Nah, paladins are now slightly above where DK tanking was back in 3.0. The nerfs are going to be crippling...and then warriors will move on to whinging about how overpowered druid tanks are. A lot of warriors don't just want to be the best tanks, they want to be the only tanks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on October 05, 2009, 06:45:05 AM
My main is a paladin since launch.  My experience:

Healing:  Once I hit the cap level, I always went healer for the guild runs.  I've always been counted as one of the main healers.  The game has consistently given more and more ability to heal better each major expansion.  Today, I feel like I can heal most anything with very little risk of a wipe.  In most cases, our failures come down to too little DPS (25 man ToC on last boss currently.)  My healing is reactive even more so with Beacon.  I can spot heal the entire raid and heal the tank I'm assigned to at the same time.  I do have to say the latest build for my Disc Priest is great for "fun" healing too.  At least he can run around and heal at the same time.

DPS:  Up until this last expansion the Ret build has been good one day and bad another.  Now, it is quite good and I'm having fun switching back and forth with Holy.  It has been really great for dailies.  I can whip through 10 or more in very little time.  We've had more and more healers in the giuld so I get chances to do some impressive DPS even on my offspec build.  This just gets me into even more raids now.

Tank:  I've never been considered a guild tank, not even now.  I do have a very good tanking set from picking up greed rolls on raids.  I have tanked several heroics in a pinch and had absolutely no issue.  However, I'm not practiced enough to just jump into Raids, and since we have several Tanks in our guild, I will most likely never be a true Tank.  Our main tanks are a warrior and a druid.  They make it to all the big raids, so breaking into that job, even with a so-called glorious tanking class, will be very difficult.  We currently have zero regular paladin tanks in our guild.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 05, 2009, 08:11:26 AM
Nah, paladins are now slightly above where DK tanking was back in 3.0. The nerfs are going to be crippling...and then warriors will move on to whinging about how overpowered druid tanks are. A lot of warriors don't just want to be the best tanks, they want to be the only tanks.


Paladin superiority is pretty much about Ardent Defender. Specifically the "I should be dead, but I ain't, praise jebus!" part. Nothing else would make anyone go 'Prot Paladin or bust' for their MT in a raid.


I totally agree about Warrior's though. Bunch of pricks they are.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 05, 2009, 08:26:11 AM
Only thing I'd probably fix is Ardent Defender and taking it back to what it was is useless, as it was frequently leapfrogged.  So they'd have to come up with something completely different for the slot.
-Paladins do more single target and AOE threat than any other tank.
I'd say more consistent.  DK AoE is far stronger outside of HotR range, and Warrior snap AoE is great as mobs can frequently run right through consecrate.  I'm flush on undead/demons mobs as I can use Holy Wrath, but otherwise, no dice.  Of course a missed Shockwave is turmoil.

Warriors' DPS is quite low though.  Plus it's all Heroic Strike, Heroic Strike, Heroic Strike.
Quote
-Paladins bring a wider variety of buffs than any other tank (kings, might(potentially improved), wisdom, and sanc)
Might is rarely used if you're speccing to main.  Waste of time too.  Shout is better, and without improved wis which only Holy has, Mana totem is better.  

Generally I just buff Sanc on myself and other tanks and Kings on everyone else.
Quote
-Paladins apply their attack power debuff just by facerolling on their keyboard, while a druid or warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds AND would have to spent 5 precious talent points to get what a paladin gets for two AND has to just pray it doesn't get resisted.
Not specced into Vindication myself.  It's a another crapshoot if the Pally takes it.
Quote
-Paladins apply their attack speed debuff by just doing their standard rotation whereas a warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds and pray it doesn't get resisted.
Agreed.
Quote
-Paladins can bring the JOL or JOW debuffs, both of which are a significant benefit to the raid.
Tanks generally toss out JOL.  I let ret toss out JOW if they're around.
Quote
-Paladins have not one but two ranged taunts on an 8 second cooldown each, one of which hits as hard as Heroic Throw, a one-minute warrior cooldown.
Super agreed!  Hand of reckoning is a godsend.
Quote
-Paladins have the best mitigation on trash and in heroics because they realistically block every single incoming hit from every mob.  I have sometimes healed protadin tanks in heroics where I did not have to cast a single heal on them in boss fights.
Realistically is a bit strong.  Holy Shield has 8 charges, and an 8 second cooldown.  Multi-mobs can eat up those charges in 2-3 seconds, as which time we trust mitigation.  

I fix this by having a seperate trash and boss tanking set.  Trash set is high on Block rating and value.
Quote
-Paladins do more DPS while tanking than any other tank.
-Paladins are the only tank that can cleanse any debuffs off of themselves while tanking.
Quote
That the current argent defender gives them the best EH of any tank by a wide margin is just the icing on the cake.
I believe the last I read was that Druids now had the highest EH post-3.2.2.  I'll have to hunt it down.
Quote
Nah, paladins are now slightly above where DK tanking was back in 3.0. The nerfs are going to be crippling...and then warriors will move on to whinging about how overpowered druid tanks are. A lot of warriors don't just want to be the best tanks, they want to be the only tanks.

Of course they are.  Blizzard trained them that way.

And the breakdown of raiding tanks (via Tankspot) still remains:

Quote
45% Warrior
25% DK
20% Paladin
10% Bear

In then end, any nerfs will probably go towards AD in my mind, with a possible slight tune towards our Stam multiplier.  But it won't happen in 3.3.  There's literally no changes for Prot Pallies in 3.3.  

Warriors are on the bottom rung, but GC has all but said it's probably not changing that much due to Warrior tanks stranglehold on raid guilds.  Perception is everything.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 05, 2009, 10:49:29 AM
Blizzard is now saying the Chains DR is a bug.


I need that vader pic now.  Noooooo!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 05, 2009, 10:54:33 AM
This one?

(http://www.anaitgames.com/wp-content/darth_vader_nooo1.jpeg)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 05, 2009, 10:55:49 AM
This one?

(http://www.anaitgames.com/wp-content/darth_vader_nooo1.jpeg)


Perfect!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on October 05, 2009, 11:33:44 AM
The pally "auto-wings/cheat death" is pretty much the reason they're better. Warrior CD's are great and when glyphed down to 2 minutes are still good (40% damage reduction, 30% more HP, 30% HP regeneration). The problem is that damage has been made so insanely spiky to compensate for tank avoidance/healing power that as a non-pally tank you can literally die instantly before hitting a CD. It's not like "oh shit" and hit a button. It's Gormok hitting you for 15k, then instantly using impale on you for 25k, then you taking 15k from an impale tick and whoops you're from literally full HP to dead in an instant.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 05, 2009, 11:55:47 AM
Blizzard is now saying the Chains DR is a bug.


I need that vader pic now.  Noooooo!

Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.

 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 05, 2009, 12:21:06 PM
Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.
Because unlike all of the other snares, which are at best a 70% snare in the case of rogue, COI starts at 95% and then ticks downward.  For a lot of classes there is little difference between a 95% snare and a root except this has no DR.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 05, 2009, 12:22:51 PM
The Rogue snare is nearly as bad as Chains really, at least in combination with that Deadly Brew talent.


Triple Poison applications, hurrah!  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 05, 2009, 12:32:53 PM
Blizzard is now saying the Chains DR is a bug.


I need that vader pic now.  Noooooo!

Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.

 :popcorn:

Because a snare that starts at 90% is only a snare in the most technical sense.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on October 05, 2009, 12:37:19 PM
Blizzard is now saying the Chains DR is a bug.

I need that vader pic now.  Noooooo!
(http://i37.tinypic.com/2sbo74p.gif)
 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 05, 2009, 12:43:18 PM
And the breakdown of raiding tanks (via Tankspot) still remains:

Quote
45% Warrior
25% DK
20% Paladin
10% Bear

In then end, any nerfs will probably go towards AD in my mind, with a possible slight tune towards our Stam multiplier.  But it won't happen in 3.3.  There's literally no changes for Prot Pallies in 3.3.  

Warriors are on the bottom rung, but GC has all but said it's probably not changing that much due to Warrior tanks stranglehold on raid guilds.  Perception is everything.

That's not what I take away from GC's comments, really, but I'm an optimist when it comes to that sort of thing. Ardent Defender is going to eat a nerf eventually (here, you can have Last Stand but you don't have to spend a glyph to get it to 2 minutes, you don't have to know ahead of time when to push the button, OH AND WE'LL ADD A FANTASTIC LOW HEALTH MITIGATION PASSIVE ON TOP OF IT), and warriors will get some of the fixes they want, like getting rid of HS spam. The changes to tanking gear in Cataclysm will make a big difference too. Also I'd take Tankspot stats on tanks with a grain of salt, too, since it isn't the most popular pally tank site (maintankadin is) and so their representation may be artificially low there. I'm not placing any bets on 3.3 not having any changes, the patch cycle is very very young.

(Also you're absolutely nuts if you're not speccing vindication, unless you have a ret pally applying it reliably.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 05, 2009, 01:15:44 PM
Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.
Because unlike all of the other snares, which are at best a 70% snare in the case of rogue, COI starts at 95% and then ticks downward.  For a lot of classes there is little difference between a 95% snare and a root except this has no DR.

Well, aside from the fact that it's only greater than 70% for 2 seconds out of its 10 second duration.  It's an annoying ability in PvP to be sure, but it's hardly the only annoying ability in PvP.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 05, 2009, 01:40:46 PM
That's not what I take away from GC's comments, really, but I'm an optimist when it comes to that sort of thing. Ardent Defender is going to eat a nerf eventually (here, you can have Last Stand but you don't have to spend a glyph to get it to 2 minutes, you don't have to know ahead of time when to push the button, OH AND WE'LL ADD A FANTASTIC LOW HEALTH MITIGATION PASSIVE ON TOP OF IT), and warriors will get some of the fixes they want, like getting rid of HS spam. The changes to tanking gear in Cataclysm will make a big difference too. Also I'd take Tankspot stats on tanks with a grain of salt, too, since it isn't the most popular pally tank site (maintankadin is) and so their representation may be artificially low there. I'm not placing any bets on 3.3 not having any changes, the patch cycle is very very young.
I actually read and post on Maintankadin, but we're frequently rather myopic on there, so I wasn't able to find those type of statistics.

HS spam will be changed, and I think AD will be adjusted as I said earlier.  The problem is in its previous form it was completely useless as most boss damage would completely leapfrog it, and we didn't have many cooldowns to help us out until Holy Shield Wall.  I'd drop the health mitigation because generally I don't get to use it.  AD saves me from one crazy boss hit, but if another follows it, I'm dead.  It's a far far stronger talent against trash or PVP.  In fact I assume it's most of the reason your started seeing Prot in Arenas.

Quote
(Also you're absolutely nuts if you're not speccing vindication, unless you have a ret pally applying it reliably.)

I do. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 05, 2009, 01:59:28 PM
Looks like we're getting raid quests with ICC, happy days.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 05, 2009, 02:01:29 PM
Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.
Because unlike all of the other snares, which are at best a 70% snare in the case of rogue, COI starts at 95% and then ticks downward.  For a lot of classes there is little difference between a 95% snare and a root except this has no DR.

Well, aside from the fact that it's only greater than 70% for 2 seconds out of its 10 second duration.  It's an annoying ability in PvP to be sure, but it's hardly the only annoying ability in PvP.

Those are the 2 seconds of the duration that matter, though. That's enough time for a healer to gain distance on you or for the DK to close. Over and over and over and over.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 05, 2009, 02:55:23 PM
Yeah, DKs are still good at peeling.  That's pretty much the only thing left they excel at in an arena setting (which is what it sounds like you're talking about).  But CoI can still be dispelled if you're having that much trouble with it in the arenas, and as much as people like to imply it can be infinitely reapplied it does still cost a Frost rune every time it's used.  It can also be resisted (Frost Mages especially can do that a lot) and for extra hilarity, reflected.  It's not like their aren't counters to it out there.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 05, 2009, 03:57:37 PM
It's still basically a root, so DR should apply. If you'd rather nerf the 90% part down to a normal snare speed, that would work too.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 05, 2009, 04:03:25 PM
It's better then a root, since it doesn't have a damage cap.


If they turned Entangling Roots into 'Chains of Ivy', Moonkin representation would skyrocket overnight!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 05, 2009, 04:03:59 PM
Yeah, DKs are still good at peeling.  That's pretty much the only thing left they excel at in an arena setting (which is what it sounds like you're talking about).  But CoI can still be dispelled if you're having that much trouble with it in the arenas, and as much as people like to imply it can be infinitely reapplied it does still cost a Frost rune every time it's used.  It can also be resisted (Frost Mages especially can do that a lot) and for extra hilarity, reflected.  It's not like their aren't counters to it out there.

Nah they still do plenty of damage, are very resilient, and the popular arena spec in particular, unholy, has a ton of control above and beyond just CoI.

If we're talking about things that cause me *personally* a lot of problems playing against DKs, its the self-healing that needs to be nerfed.   :-P


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 05, 2009, 04:08:13 PM
I've watched so many games where he loses 1v1 to a DK due to that.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 05, 2009, 04:23:51 PM
How are DKs healing that much against you when you have Mortal Strike?  Warriors always gave me the most trouble of the melee classes because of that, even more than Rogues.  I realize part of my problem is my refusal to spec into Unholy because of my irrational hatred of that tree (which is why I haven't bothered PvPing for months now anyway), but that shouldn't have any effect on healing.

As for CoI, the only way it's 'basically a root' is if you're spamming it literally every couple of seconds.  If that warrants putting it on DR then just make the damned thing a real root.  Somehow I think that would make it even more annoying, though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 05, 2009, 04:24:13 PM
Quote
but we're in a great spot for raids
That's an understatement.  Protadins are so absurdly and obviously overpowered compared to other tanks by every single possible metric that the only remaining explanation is that Blizzard is trying to see how overpowered they have to make them to get top guilds to abandon the warrior tanks they've been using for 5 years.

Didn't someone here previously link a Tankspot article wherein Ghostwalker said this was exactly what was going on?  They wanted to see more Druid and Pally tanks, so they are deliberatly overpowered when compared to Warriors and DKs - with DKs being constantly  nerfed because there's too damn many of them. The same thing that happened to Hunters prior to WLK.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 05, 2009, 04:26:38 PM
I totally agree about Warrior's though. Bunch of pricks they are.

Agreed.  A lot of this issue is oldschool rollover from EQ and previous games that's carried forward by the current Warrior community.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 05, 2009, 05:01:43 PM
How are DKs healing that much against you when you have Mortal Strike?

Ingmar PvPs as a protection build. It is surprisingly not shitty.


Also, you CAN spam CoI every few seconds, or at least often enough that you can use it to do what a root does, which is make the target stop moving until you can kick their ass in melee. It would be a little different if DKs were casters, as then they would be using the root to keep people away from them (in which case, yes, it's not actually that great), but given it is for closing distances and used more as a "hold still you asshole," it is essentially a root.

Would it be more annoying as a regular snare? I'm not sure. It would probably still be annoying, as it would be a ranged snare, but it would smell less like total bullshit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nonentity on October 05, 2009, 05:12:12 PM
I just gave up PvPing in WoW, even though supposedly warriors are okay now? I don't know.

I miss Arms warriors. I have to be Fury these days to be competitive in PvE.

On an unrelated note, I always have to go to the WoW forum to find you guys.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 05, 2009, 05:21:28 PM
Chains is actually really great at keeping people away too, since it doesn't have a target limit either. For the first 5 seconds of the spell effect, your target will have moved all of 3-5 yards. I wish my root worked like chains.




Non - Arms Warriors are dominant, have been for awhile again. Weapon dependent as always though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nonentity on October 05, 2009, 05:36:40 PM
It's a tossup. At the top top top of the tree, Arms can't compete with Fury. But for middleground, an Arms warrior can beat a Fury warrior, it's true.

As far as PvP is concerned, yeah, Arms always has and always will be the PvP spec of choice.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 05, 2009, 05:59:17 PM
Yeah I PVP/arena as a special protection spec:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Doomhammer&n=Thorgrim&group=2

Mind you I've barely done any arena this season so far, but DKs don't seem to have changed much from my side of things. I could go arms, but protection typically serves me better in 2v2 arena, particularly with a moonkin partner.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 05, 2009, 06:05:45 PM
He pretty much carries me, it's sad.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 06, 2009, 09:29:37 AM
Looks like we're getting raid quests with ICC, happy days.

You mean goddammittofuckinghell days, right?  Right?

Because I know my entire guild was just needing a reason to go back into naxx and kill mobs we stopped caring about well over eight months ago.  Much less Malygos.  Yes, I want a three phase fight that culminates in a buggy ass vehicle phase.  Even though I'm in the #2 or #3 guild hordeside, I've downed the 25 man version of Malygos exactly once.  We tried to do it a second time, and gave up after too many tries where idiots wouldn't move, died to fire, and my personal favorite, we got to phase three, Malygos broke the platform, and we all plunged past the drakes to our deaths.  We've never been back to Malygos since that.

Wait.  That's completely wrong.  I actually don't want that.

Yes, I know, 10 man versions.  I'll probably end up doing those, as we can't get enough interest in guild to do much more than one or two heroic dailies, despite them being free emblems.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on October 06, 2009, 10:31:14 AM
You're too close.  Back away from the keyboard.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 06, 2009, 11:48:52 AM
They've pretty much shitcanned the idea of raiding gear progression in the "Hey newbie, want to see Icecrown? Okay go start Naxx and we'll see you in six months!" sense. From what I understand, come 3.3 you'll be able to pick up Naxx 25 level gear in a five-man normal dungeon. With that being the case, they apparently feel they need a reason for people to continue running the early-expansion raids, and quests are it.

I can't say I disagree with their reasoning. Not that I'll bother to do anything except grab whatever the new shiny heroic weapon is for my pally.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 06, 2009, 11:56:06 AM
Its also a way to deliver more badges for people to gear up with who aren't ready to go right into Icecrown. Full approval here.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 06, 2009, 12:06:35 PM
Good stuff.  I like how Blizzard is trying to make content accessible to anyone.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Thrawn on October 06, 2009, 12:22:51 PM
Good stuff.  I like how Blizzard is trying to make content accessible to anyone.

I think it's also likely to help people get bored of the game quicker since it's so much easier for everyone to "see everything".


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 06, 2009, 12:26:52 PM
I think it's also likely to help people get bored of the game quicker since it's so much easier for everyone to "see everything".

Why will that make them quit faster than the barrier to raiding? 

Being able to get decent purple gear on a casual schedule will do nothing but help the game.  People give up when they have nothing to do.  If you're not someone with a raiding guild handy, this happens pretty quickly already.  Now they have the option to keep improving their toon in a more user-friendly manner.  This may do a lot to encourage alts which will also keep people around. 

The changes seem like a huge win to me. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 06, 2009, 01:09:14 PM
They're just applying the PVP model of advancement to PVE.  In PVP, you can get the gear that's two seasons behind by afking in AV and the gear that's a season behind by not being terrible.  In PVE, you can get the gear that's two 'seasons' behind (ulduar-25 normal) by facerolling through heroics and one season behind (ulduar-hard mode) by not being terrible (toc 10/25 normal).  I wouldn't be completely surprised if they changed all heroics to start dropping triumph badges in 3.3.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on October 06, 2009, 01:13:50 PM
They've pretty much shitcanned the idea of raiding gear progression in the "Hey newbie, want to see Icecrown? Okay go start Naxx and we'll see you in six months!" sense. From what I understand, come 3.3 you'll be able to pick up Naxx 25 level gear in a five-man normal dungeon. With that being the case, they apparently feel they need a reason for people to continue running the early-expansion raids, and quests are it.

I can't say I disagree with their reasoning. Not that I'll bother to do anything except grab whatever the new shiny heroic weapon is for my pally.
Actually you'll be getting Ulduar 10 level gear from the normal icecrown 5-man, and the gear from the heroic version will be the same quality as the current bleeding edge 10 man. A gear reset from a 5-man! Blizzard rules, this is a godsend for my guild's new players and people who are coming back after RL stuff (like oh, the two officers in
my guild who are in Iraq right now).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: dd0029 on October 06, 2009, 01:15:14 PM
http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/icecrown-citadel-the-frozen-throne/

I think the fantasy name generator seems to have gotten stuck on "Batman".  Professor Putricide and Ashen Verdict?



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 06, 2009, 01:15:28 PM
A certain middlecore level of raider might be more inclined to quit because they've seen everything. (Hardcore enough that they want to see everything, but not so hardcore that seeing it all is a given anyway.) But those people are a subset of a subset, and easily made up for by casual raiders who would otherwise be stuck running heroics until they get bored and quit.

Edit:

Quote
Actually you'll be getting Ulduar 10 level gear from the normal icecrown 5-man, and the gear from the heroic version will be the same quality as the current bleeding edge 10 man.

So one can theoretically go from heroic Icecrown 5-man straight into 10-man Arthas? I see what they did there.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 06, 2009, 03:07:26 PM
Good stuff.  I like how Blizzard is trying to make content accessible to anyone.

I think it's also likely to help people get bored of the game quicker since it's so much easier for everyone to "see everything".

Yeah no. Prior to this approach, guilds like mine who can do 10 mans but not 25s were stuck with fuck-all to do once our one 10 man was cleared (and prior to THAT, in Vanilla, we had NOTHING AT ALL to do besides the same ol' 5 mans). We could do Zul'Aman if we really wanted, but the time investment for us was not worth it until it got nerfed. Now we have an actual damn progression, and actually have a hope of seeing the last boss of the expansion. Without that, I would've been bored months and months ago, because I would know there was no way I was going to see the "end."

It might hurt the hardcore epeen knowing plebes like me might actually see shit, but there are waaaaaay more people like me playing the game.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 06, 2009, 03:46:08 PM
We could do Zul'Aman if we really wanted, but the time investment for us was not worth it until it got nerfed.
ZA was never nerfed, unless you mean the pre-WOTLK patch that nerfed every raid to the ground.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 06, 2009, 03:47:53 PM
We could do Zul'Aman if we really wanted, but the time investment for us was not worth it until it got nerfed.
ZA was never nerfed, unless you mean the pre-WOTLK patch that nerfed every raid to the ground.

That was what I meant, yes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 06, 2009, 05:11:11 PM
ZA did experience a couple nerfs, IIRC.  Mostly to take bear runs from OMG IMPOSSIBLE to just barely doable.

I have no problem with gear resets, I just find it annoying that I have to try to drag a bunch of reluctant idiots into old content in order to get badges for current gear.

Stupid lazy players.  /grumble

Having said that, we'll probably end up seeing how much of it we can five man.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on October 06, 2009, 07:10:04 PM
Blizzard has been resurrecting, refocusing, and outright redoing old content in an effort to make it relevant/necessary for as long as I can remember.  It's not out of the blue.  Just embrace it, and realize that for better or worse, this is one of the tools they use to keep people playing.  Expect it to continue.  Personally I just view it as one of those things where they can't always please all the people all the time.  Sometimes you're going to fall into the category of people who aren't pleased.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on October 06, 2009, 09:24:18 PM
Blizzard has been resurrecting, refocusing, and outright redoing old content in an effort to make it relevant/necessary for as long as I can remember.
Considering only like 1% of a given server ever got to see Naxx-40 and very few guilds were clearing Blackwing Lair and AQ-40 combined with the insane keying requirements of TBC, I welcome recycling content to be able to see it without all of the old cockblocks that were in place years ago.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on October 06, 2009, 09:42:35 PM
Redoing AQ40 would be horrid.

Let's just toss that out of the equation right now if possible. Don't remake mistakes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 06, 2009, 09:49:58 PM
AQ40 had what, 3 different guild breaker bosses?

FUN TIMES.  AQ20 wasn't all bad, however.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on October 06, 2009, 09:59:07 PM
AQ20 was damned fun. AQ40...not so much.

I enjoy large raids, but it really is easier on everyone involved in 10 mans. Less wear and tear on the guild administration is a good thing. New 5mans with progression loot? Yeah, sign me up. I stil enjoy 25s, but what I really play these games for is to grow and fiddle with my character. Anything that allows me to do this more easily is a good thing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: bhodi on October 06, 2009, 10:01:18 PM
Hey guys, let's go farm marudon for nature resist blues and greens!

Oh it'll take 25 minutes to get there since you have to take a boat and fly across an entire continent, then across the entire desolace zone from north-west to south-east, and if you want to run it more than once, you'll have to hearth since there's no way out of the final area, it'll be fun!

While we're there, we can finally get that enchantment trainer for our guildie firiend, too!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on October 06, 2009, 10:45:37 PM
Redoing AQ40 would be horrid.
Well obviously.  Guild destroying bosses and encounters, I *never* understood why it had to be so hard.

Hey guys, let's go farm marudon for nature resist blues and greens!
Combine that with "farm MC and Ony for months to get materials to make Onyxia Scale Cloak to even stand a chance in the next progression of the raid (BWL)" and you have a recipe for fail.  Luckily the Shadowbreath doesn't exist anymore.  I did BWL the other night and can only imagine how painful it would have been coordinating 40 people through that at 60.  Some of the mobs and bosses had hit points similar to Naxx-25 bosses and mobs.  At least with Mara you could run it over and over again with 2-3 people at 60 unlike MC where you had to gather 39 of your best personal friends a few times a week for the *chance* that you would be "approved" by the guild for the materials for your cloak and fire resist gear to craft if they actually dropped...

I still run into people who insist the old 40-man days were the best and how they wish they were still around.  And how Blizz should have gone to 60 and 80 man raids... I don't understand those people.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ratadm on October 06, 2009, 10:46:57 PM
I kind of liked aq40 although I know C'thun wrecked 3 or so 2nd tier guilds on my sever. The only bad parts were the trash (pre emps and pre cthun)  and farming nature resist gear (lol go run mara 40 times to get trinkets and other random crap).  C'thun was a really well done fight I thought and I laugh that pugs still have trouble on Twin emps.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 06, 2009, 11:17:55 PM
I kind of liked aq40 although I know C'thun wrecked 3 or so 2nd tier guilds on my sever. The only bad parts were the trash (pre emps and pre cthun)  and farming nature resist gear (lol go run mara 40 times to get trinkets and other random crap).  C'thun was a really well done fight I thought and I laugh that pugs still have trouble on Twin emps.
I have been in a few 20 man AQ 40 pugs, with pretty much 90% of the people in the raid at level 77 or higher, and somehow they STILL manage to fuck up Twin Emps enough times that the pug falls apart.  Usually they do the 2 tanks strat (being you only have 2 tanks, and let the bosses teleport and then run back to their old positions) and it is amazing how difficult is it for people to understand the two simple concepts: Don't fucking chase the boss when it ports, let it run back to it's tank; and If you grab aggro, don't fucking stand there like an idiot, run it away from the other Boss.   It's not really THAT hard of a fight, but appearently the VAST majority of modern raid noobs have no concept of how to deal with mobs that periodically wipe all threat.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 06, 2009, 11:34:08 PM
Combine that with "farm MC and Ony for months to get materials to make Onyxia Scale Cloak to even stand a chance in the next progression of the raid (BWL)" and you have a recipe for fail.  Luckily the Shadowbreath doesn't exist anymore.  I did BWL the other night and can only imagine how painful it would have been coordinating 40 people through that at 60.  Some of the mobs and bosses had hit points similar to Naxx-25 bosses and mobs.
Actually, BWL was kind of entertaining at 60.  And don't forget, things were a LOT easier to coordinate, simply because there was a lot less "role spreading" going on among the classes.  There was really 1 viable tank class Warrior, with Feral Druids / Prot paladins tied for Dead last as a second option.  Paladins, priests, Druids, and Shaman usually stuck to healing, with the odd Feral Druid or Ele shaman in there.  Everyone else was plain old DPS, and i think Ret DPS, Enhance DPS or Moonkin DPS were about as rare as baron rivendare's mount.

  About the only thing i never liked about that place was the Suppression room, which always came across as a poorly contrived excuse to provide something for your rogues to do.  The rest of it had some pretty nice theme and interesting encounters.

Fun part now is running BWL at 80, where everything is rediculously easy, and then getting to Neff and watching nearly an entire 20 man raid of full 80's die to Shadowflame because the Paladin Tank couldn't stance dance to avoid fear (It was awesome, we ended up 3 manning neff from about 60% with only my Enhance Shaman (who was wearing her old Ony Cloak) the Prot Pally tank, and a Resto shaman left alive.  Fucking Forrest of Hostile totems by the end of the fight, stupid shaman class calls.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 07, 2009, 04:14:43 AM
I kind of liked aq40 although I know C'thun wrecked 3 or so 2nd tier guilds on my sever. The only bad parts were the trash (pre emps and pre cthun)  and farming nature resist gear (lol go run mara 40 times to get trinkets and other random crap).  C'thun was a really well done fight I thought and I laugh that pugs still have trouble on Twin emps.
I have been in a few 20 man AQ 40 pugs, with pretty much 90% of the people in the raid at level 77 or higher, and somehow they STILL manage to fuck up Twin Emps enough times that the pug falls apart.  Usually they do the 2 tanks strat (being you only have 2 tanks, and let the bosses teleport and then run back to their old positions) and it is amazing how difficult is it for people to understand the two simple concepts: Don't fucking chase the boss when it ports, let it run back to it's tank; and If you grab aggro, don't fucking stand there like an idiot, run it away from the other Boss.   It's not really THAT hard of a fight, but appearently the VAST majority of modern raid noobs have no concept of how to deal with mobs that periodically wipe all threat.

Your experience mirrors mine exactly.  I only got it done a month ago because a group of about 7 competent raiders from another mid-pack guild decided they wanted the achieve and I happened to be on.   After pounding this strat into the 4 other people's heads, the 12 of us were able to finish it up fairly easily. 

I understand this to have been the issue when AQ was original content as well, so I'm not surprised people still don't get it.   We nearly gave up on C'Thun because a few continued to not understand the whole "Run in as a group so we don't Die, dummy" thing.   Hell, the only reason we actually killed him was because C'Thun ate 2 people who knew to attack the thing in his stomach, not just run out.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on October 07, 2009, 08:34:22 AM
Have you tried pugs with voice comms? I know that sounds like a terrifying prospect, but my one and only visit to Naxx was a pug and it was going realy badly until someone said "why don't we put the voice comms on?".

Sure, it took 15 mins to get those with mics on and volumes sorted etc, but from that point on it was a walk in the park. We didn't finish it because of time constraints but it was sooo much easier with someone saying "don't stand in that thing" etc.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Thrawn on October 07, 2009, 09:12:53 AM
I was in a Naxx 25 pug last night that had great dps, great tanks, great healers.  We breezed through spider wing, then wiped 3 times to the slimes in early part of abom wing before the pug broke apart.  :uhrr:

I'm never gonna get my Naxxramus achievements.  :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morat20 on October 07, 2009, 11:08:54 AM
Everyone else was plain old DPS, and i think Ret DPS, Enhance DPS or Moonkin DPS were about as rare as baron rivendare's mount.
Speaking of, I'm seeing a surprising number of people riding that mount. Is undead Strat soloable for 70s and 80s?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 07, 2009, 11:10:17 AM
Everyone else was plain old DPS, and i think Ret DPS, Enhance DPS or Moonkin DPS were about as rare as baron rivendare's mount.
Speaking of, I'm seeing a surprising number of people riding that mount. Is undead Strat soloable for 70s and 80s?

They recently upped the droprate on the mount to around %5 and yes, very soloable at 80 by most classes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 07, 2009, 11:22:36 AM
The 10 minute long diseases (especially the one that prevents all health regen) can make it incredibly annoying for certain classes.  Still isn't difficult.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on October 07, 2009, 11:30:53 AM
Don't forget the mana burn on the dead side. It's still there and surprisingly brutal on classes like protection pallies. Mine got a very rude awakening because of it. Interestingly, it doesn't bother my shaman particularly, but then she pretty much one shots everything she runs across. Heck, the magma totem alone about does that.

On my warrior, however, it's like an evil, violent trip through fantasyland. As either arms or protection it's a giggle-worthy outing. Money isn't bad, either.

Most entertaining is taking a friend along and getting mind controlled by the baroness and then beating said friend down. It doesn't get much better than that.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on October 07, 2009, 11:54:05 AM
Running Strat is hilariously awesome on a DK:
"Skeletons? Skeletons?! That's not an army of the dead"
pres butan
A couple of dozen ghouls claw their way out of the ground.
"That's an army of the dead! Bloody amateur"  :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 07, 2009, 12:05:16 PM
I'm running around on my shaman last night and come across this level 69 DK fighting two level 68 mobs.  As I run by, he yells for my help.

I'm no WoW expert, but this seemed like a whole new level of bad to me.  



EDIT: I just realized that maybe he/she was a little kid.  I can excuse that. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morat20 on October 07, 2009, 12:06:32 PM
Everyone else was plain old DPS, and i think Ret DPS, Enhance DPS or Moonkin DPS were about as rare as baron rivendare's mount.
Speaking of, I'm seeing a surprising number of people riding that mount. Is undead Strat soloable for 70s and 80s?

They recently upped the droprate on the mount to around %5 and yes, very soloable at 80 by most classes.
Would be difficult on my hunter, I would think. I've found that I'm surprisingly squishy if I gain aggro, and I have a hard time dealing with multiple mobs. Of course, I'm level 71 and still gearing up to Northend stuff.

I suspect going back to Undead strat at 80, with the gear and HP and such -- might be easier than I thought. I always wanted that mount....although it'd fit my DK better. :)

Nebu: Really? That's fucking awful. My 58 DK is playing around in Outland and can take multiple even level mobs, even though she's still geared with the crap you get for finishing the DK opening. Of course, mostly I let my perma-ghoul handle it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shatter on October 07, 2009, 12:12:31 PM
Goddamit!  I used to farm Strat by 2 boxing my level 60 rogue and druid, musta killed that asshole 100+ times, quit the game a year + ago and after I left they up the drop rate...sonsofbitches.  Im almost inclined to resub just for that mount...meh nm. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 07, 2009, 12:12:44 PM
Those diseases are nasty plain and simple.  I can't take the warlock there because I go through health pots and bandages too quickly. As for the mount, meh, she's a Forsaken warlock.  The warhorse or the dreadsteed look just as cool.  Especially because I got my dreadsteed the old way.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 07, 2009, 12:14:06 PM
Would be difficult on my hunter, I would think. I've found that I'm surprisingly squishy if I gain aggro, and I have a hard time dealing with multiple mobs. Of course, I'm level 71 and still gearing up to Northend stuff.

Get a bear pet.  The swipe combined with the thunderstomp will take care of the aggro problem.  Also, I think there's a minor glyph that reduces the cooldown on feign.  I love that glyph for pve.  Pulling with misdirection or sending the bear into a crowd also helps. 



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morat20 on October 07, 2009, 02:17:19 PM
Get a bear pet.  The swipe combined with the thunderstomp will take care of the aggro problem.  Also, I think there's a minor glyph that reduces the cooldown on feign.  I love that glyph for pve.  Pulling with misdirection or sending the bear into a crowd also helps. 
I have that glyph. Frankly, finding minor glyphs on the AH is a pain in the ass.

Warlock soul bags and herb bags are just as big a PITA, unless you want the absolute top-end, god-knows-how-many-hundreds-of-gold ones.

Currently my tanking pet is Mister Turtle, but I still have a slot open. I could always get rid of the Raptor. He looks cool, but that's about the only reason I have him.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 07, 2009, 02:39:16 PM
Warlock soul bags and herb bags are just as big a PITA, unless you want the absolute top-end, god-knows-how-many-hundreds-of-gold ones.

The reason for herb bags being so expensive is that the only ones that offer more space than standard bags are rep rewards and require large quantities of expensive mats. That said, Mycah's Botanical Bag isn't too expensive mats-wise, it's just from a fairly obscure rep.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 07, 2009, 02:44:46 PM
The current top end herb bag is expensive because it requires 4 cooldowns on a 4 day timer to make one.  I've never understood why Blizzard was so hellbent on introducing days long cooldowns on materials required for tailoring.  No other tradeskill has such an enormous cockblock.  So far as I am aware, of course.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 07, 2009, 03:04:49 PM
The current top end herb bag is expensive because it requires 4 cooldowns on a 4 day timer to make one.  I've never understood why Blizzard was so hellbent on introducing days long cooldowns on materials required for tailoring.  No other tradeskill has such an enormous cockblock.  So far as I am aware, of course.

Blacksmithing does (titansteel) as does jewelcrafting (main source of dragon's eyes is a daily quest.) Although the timer in those cases is 1 day not 4 (assuming I'm reading you right.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morat20 on October 07, 2009, 03:11:32 PM
Warlock soul bags and herb bags are just as big a PITA, unless you want the absolute top-end, god-knows-how-many-hundreds-of-gold ones.

The reason for herb bags being so expensive is that the only ones that offer more space than standard bags are rep rewards and require large quantities of expensive mats. That said, Mycah's Botanical Bag isn't too expensive mats-wise, it's just from a fairly obscure rep.
Hell, my wife just wants a soul bag so her shards go there automatically. Don't herbs do the same thing? 20 slot is more than enough for her at the moment, and the auto-sort thing is tops.

I'm not even sure WHY soul shards don't stack.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 07, 2009, 03:19:26 PM
If you want a 20-slot bag you might as well just get a Frostweave Bag


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 07, 2009, 04:11:12 PM
I wouldn't be completely surprised if they changed all heroics to start dropping triumph badges in 3.3.
Quote from: Bornakk
The current plan is to make Emblems of Triumph the "base" of emblems so everything that drops Emblems of Conquest would be changed to Triumph and then the new raid content would drop the new highest emblem along with things like the heroic daily and such.

New patch notes up.  Nothing too exciting, divine guardian was nerfed TO THE GROUND, just lots of quality of life improvements for everyone (like destro burst getting smacked on the nose with a newspaper).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 07, 2009, 04:24:57 PM
The 10 minute long diseases (especially the one that prevents all health regen) can make it incredibly annoying for certain classes.  Still isn't difficult.

Go to STV, kill Medicine Men for their potions, problem solved.  Still, if I'm in there for 10 mins on my DK it's a long run.  I imagine most DPS classes it's the same story.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 07, 2009, 04:27:10 PM
Or just be a dwarf.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 07, 2009, 04:28:17 PM
I'm not even sure WHY soul shards don't stack.

At this point they should.  They're going away in 4.0, may as well let them stack right now for convenience's sake.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 07, 2009, 05:21:53 PM
I used to solo Stratholme at 70. In PVP blues and quest greens. Pally FTW.  :awesome_for_real:

Also, the horse dropped on my 2nd kill. I don't even ride it. Mahahahaha.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on October 08, 2009, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: MMOChampion
# Item - Priest T10 Shadow 2P Bonus - The critical strike chance of your Shadow Word: Pain, Devouring Plague, and Vampiric Touch spells is increased by 5%.
# Item - Priest T10 Shadow 4P Bonus - Reduces the channel duration and period of your Mind Flay spell by 51%

I'll just be over here.

Giggling insanely.

(Well, at least until the gear preview shows up, and with any indication of how hideous the current T10 previews are, then I'll alternate giggling with weeping)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 08, 2009, 09:57:37 AM
A lot of them are placeholder values. I get it's really something crap like 5%

I'm trying to figure out if the Priest healer set boni are good or not. I am happy that they are a bit imaginative for a change if nothing else,


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on October 08, 2009, 10:16:22 AM
After appraising the current T10 previews (DK, Druid, Hunter, Rogue, Warrior) I am not as repulsed as I was initially. Since 99.9% of the time, I play with helm /off, the worst offending pieces won't ever really affect me. Some are just plain wrong, though.

I appreciate that geists are cool in that creepy gimp manner of theirs, but now the... er... 'eyehole' is glowing on the Rogue T10, it looks... well. I'll let others draw their own conclusions on that, I doubt I'm the only one who can't unsee.

At first, I looked at the Druid set and thought 'oh well, Druids got by far, far the best looking T9 set, guess they drew the short straw this time', but now I get a different vibe - did anyone ever read Sláine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sl%C3%A1ine_(comics))? The druids in Sláine were dark, scary motherfuckers dressed in heavy skins, features completely covered, heads adorned with thorns and horns. That's what I get from the T10 set now. Arguably the first Druid set in a while that isn't feminine in any way whatsoever. Don't think it'll be met with a lot of love overall, and I still think it's ugly, but at least I think I get the idea behind it now.

DK set is kind of uninspiring but at least it's vaguely in-keeping, sort of like Arthas' pyjamas. The Tron-lines on the Warrior T10 are odd, but the orange/black set looks ok. Don't like the pig-face shoulders at all, though.

I've heard some complaints about the Hunter T10, specifically the helmet, which oddly I don't mind so much - you've torn off the head carapace of a Crypt Lord and stuck it on your own head! That's pretty hardcore. I actually think the overall design of the Hunter set is probably the nicest of what's been revealed so far.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 08, 2009, 10:17:19 AM
The current top end herb bag is expensive because it requires 4 cooldowns on a 4 day timer to make one.  I've never understood why Blizzard was so hellbent on introducing days long cooldowns on materials required for tailoring.  No other tradeskill has such an enormous cockblock.  So far as I am aware, of course.

Trying to get all the patterns in Jewelcrafting is an enormous cockblock, or a vicious moneysink.  Take your pick.

Quote
Item - Paladin T10 Protection 2P Bonus - Your Hammer of the Righteous ability deals 20% increased damage.
Item - Paladin T10 Protection 4P Bonus - When you activate Divine Plea, you gain 12% dodge for 10 sec.
:drill:

Yeah, that won't make it to live.  Or it will, but tied to the most horrendous armor design ever.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 08, 2009, 10:19:12 AM
Quote from: MMOChampion
# Item - Priest T10 Shadow 2P Bonus - The critical strike chance of your Shadow Word: Pain, Devouring Plague, and Vampiric Touch spells is increased by 5%.
# Item - Priest T10 Shadow 4P Bonus - Reduces the channel duration and period of your Mind Flay spell by 51%

I'll just be over here.

Giggling insanely.

(Well, at least until the gear preview shows up, and with any indication of how hideous the current T10 previews are, then I'll alternate giggling with weeping)

Shadow priest High five?  Also mindflay now a base 30yds....thank god.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 08, 2009, 11:59:48 AM
Hooray for more terrible holy paladin tier bonuses.  Makes it that much easier to ignore them.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Thrawn on October 08, 2009, 02:03:44 PM
Hooray for more terrible holy paladin tier bonuses.  Makes it that much easier to ignore them.

Hurray for patch notes making me even happier I shelved my paladin to play something else for a while.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 08, 2009, 03:12:29 PM
Quote
We are trying to make haste a slightly more attractive stat for classes that utilize a lot of damage or healing over time spells, specifically Shadow priests, warlocks (though especially Affliction) and Resto druids. We realize other classes use hots and dots too, but I think we can all agree that it's a bigger problem for the ones I mentioned.

I'm going to share with you an idea that the class and item designers came up with for 3.3. This is a work in progress so it's possible we'll end up going a different way after we see how it plays. However I also wanted to explain our logic here in case it wasn't obvious.

We have new tech that will allow specific hots and dots to tick faster -- the time between ticks would decrease. This means more damage or healing per time but also having to refresh those spells more often. Since there is a trade-off, we're not sure the change is a no-brainer, especially in the healing case.

Because of this, we are planning on introducing the concept through glyphs. Glyphs represent a great test bed for new ideas because they are easier to change (and easier on the players when we do change them) compared to core spell functions or even talents. If we like the way it feels and players like the way it feels and the glyphs prove popular or fun, then this may be the kind of thing that shifts from glyphs over time -- not unlike the way some favorite set bonuses eventually become talents.

For 3.3 we are talking about introducing three new glyphs for Shadow Word: Pain, Corruption and Rejuvenation that would allow these spells to tick faster with the more haste you have. There are glyphs of Corruption and Rejuv already, and we're not sure how we're going to resolve those yet. For Shadow Word: Pain, we are likely to rename the current glyph to Glyph of Mind Flay, remove the old Glyph of Mind Flay, and increase Mind Flay by 10 yards in the base spell.

Again, these are not promises (nor ponies). For a variety of reasons, you may see these changes on the PTR or you may not. If you do see any or all of the three glyphs implemented however, we wanted you to have some idea of what we were trying to do. Feedback is certainly appreciated, especially if you get to try them out.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 08, 2009, 04:08:38 PM
I appreciate that geists are cool in that creepy gimp manner of theirs, but now the... er... 'eyehole' is glowing on the Rogue T10, it looks... well. I'll let others draw their own conclusions on that, I doubt I'm the only one who can't unsee.

You are definitely not alone.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 08, 2009, 04:27:51 PM
In the furor over the armor, nobody mentioned this; New Achieves for the X-Realm Dungeon tool. The title reward is  :drill:

Quote
    * Looking for More - Use the Dungeon tool to finish random heroic dungeons until you have grouped with 10 random players total.
    * Looking for Many - Use the Dungeon tool to finish random heroic dungeons until you have grouped with 50 random players total. Title Reward - the Patient.
    * Looking for Multitudes - Use the Dungeon tool to finish random heroic dungeons until you have grouped with 100 random players total.

The DK T10 set is very much in keeping with the sets they've had before.  I have no complaints at this, but the verdict isn't final until we see the helm.  The T7 helm was horrible.

Hunters are probably irritated because their helm looks like the old Might helm.  Sharkblade jokes are back, baby!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 08, 2009, 05:46:20 PM
Ha, I like that title reward.  :heart:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ratadm on October 08, 2009, 10:08:08 PM
My initial reaction is t10 dk is a total copy of t3 warrior.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on October 08, 2009, 10:17:56 PM
Warriors look great, hunters look stupid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 09, 2009, 12:17:59 AM
Druid

    * 2 Pieces (Balance): (Updated) When you gain Clearcasting from your Omen of Clarity talent, you deal 15% additional Nature and Arcane damage for 6 seconds.
    * 4 Pieces (Balance): (Updated) Your critical strikes from Starfire and Wrath cause the target languish for an additional 5% of your spell's damage over 4 seconds.

I sort of liked the old 4 Piece bonus (had something to do with reducing the internal cooldown on eclipse procs, but the time value was not a proper number) but the new one seems like it would be MUCH better.  A lot of it depends on if that bonus damage over time STACKS.  Ie, if i crit 3 times in 4 seconds, later crits better not overwrite previous ones).  When i can crit for 10 to 12k on Starfires and 9k on wrath, and currently sit at around a 38% raid buffed base crit (ie, not counting + crit talents that only effect certain spells) that could end up as a LOT of damage over time...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 09, 2009, 05:41:40 AM
The previous cooldown bonus was literally useless. Assuming the RNG gods let you proc perfectly, you can already have 100% eclipse up time. The previous bonus would have done nothing to change that in the slightest.


The new one will most likely "roll" like ignite and other similar bonus DoT mechanics.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on October 09, 2009, 08:18:54 AM
Quote from: MMOChampion
# Item - Priest T10 Shadow 4P Bonus - Reduces the channel duration and period of your Mind Flay spell by 51%

Obviously too good to be true, the 4pc bonus is now

Quote
4 Pieces (Damage): (Updated) Reduces the channel duration and period of your Mind Flay spell by 0.5 seconds.

which pretty much means 2.5 second Mind Flays instead of the proposed 1.5. BOO! Still, if they can get haste to work properly on the tic speed of DoTs/HoTs, maybe it'll all work out. Plus the 30 yard base range and redux of the Mind Flay glyph will make things peachier for sure.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 09, 2009, 11:35:46 PM
The previous cooldown bonus was literally useless. Assuming the RNG gods let you proc perfectly, you can already have 100% eclipse up time. The previous bonus would have done nothing to change that in the slightest.


The new one will most likely "roll" like ignite and other similar bonus DoT mechanics.
Actually, the internal cooldown thing might have been more useful then you think.  Yes. With good procs, you CAN have 100% uptime on Eclipse, but you have to swap between Lunar and Solar.  If the change to the internal cooldown allowed you to proc either eclipse, say, 50% more frequently, that could have been HUGE, since certain dps rotations / gear combos are MUCH better at getting more dps out of a specific eclipse proc over another.

Would have to leave it up to the number crunchers on the theorycraft sites, but being able to maintain a much longer uptime on Solar or Lunar eclipse over a given time period could easily have been pretty nice.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Oban on October 10, 2009, 12:26:09 AM
Why do they insist on making rogues glow?  If I am a stealthy thing, why would I put huge lights on my shoulders or head?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on October 10, 2009, 05:59:17 AM
Why do they insist on making rogues glow?  If I am a stealthy thing, why would I put huge lights on my shoulders or head?

Beats me, it's like the stupid glowing IR goggle/headset Sam Fisher wears in Splinter Cell.

Sam Fisher: "I am teh darkness lol"
Guard 1: "Dude, what're those three green glowy things in the shadows over there?"
Guard 2: "Localised Aurora Borealis. You get that shit round here."
*muffled cry*
Guard 1: "Wat, even underground? Dude? Dude, where'd you go? Oh hey, the glowy things have gone."
*muffled cry*
Sam Fisher: "I am teh darkness lol"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Setanta on October 10, 2009, 05:33:38 PM
Those diseases are nasty plain and simple.  I can't take the warlock there because I go through health pots and bandages too quickly. As for the mount, meh, she's a Forsaken warlock.  The warhorse or the dreadsteed look just as cool.  Especially because I got my dreadsteed the old way.

Respec to Demonology. Felguard and dots - I hit Revered just putting the guard on aggressive and letting it go to town while dotting and draining everything in sight. Felguard absorbs most of the punishment and if he takes diesease, let him die and resummon him. I've never had a problem with a loch in there although my enhance shammy is faster at tearing through the place as is my DK (DK got the mount on its 3rd run).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 13, 2009, 02:42:16 PM
New PTR up, official changes below the fold

The shadow priest buffs are well-deserved, the resto druid change will eliminate a lot of stupid and repetitive questions about haste, the cooldown changes are just meh.

Sketchy MMO-champ datamined changes:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 13, 2009, 04:14:05 PM
The DK changes were expected and announced. They don't like that Unholys are forgoing Scourge Strike, so it keeps getting futzed with.  This latest change meant that SS does less damage than 2x Blood Strike.. so now Unholys are ignoring SS AND their Death Rune Talent.  I'm sure it made them do flips, but they acknowledged the problem prior to pushing 3.3 and said they'd "fix" it in 3.4. 

The UB nerf is probably because spamming DC takes priority over even rune abilities right now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on October 13, 2009, 04:23:25 PM
Sign me up for that water elemental change if it is real.  Although technically not really important since I don't do much solo PvE on my mage anymore...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 14, 2009, 10:50:34 AM
# Item - Paladin T10 Holy Relic (Holy Shock) - Your Holy Shock spell grants 85 spell power for 15 sec. Stacks up to 3 times.


Oh boy, spell power libram that stacks off of using Holy Shock!  Yet another tier where I can ignore not only the set bonuses, but also the libram!

1.  This in no way trumps the ilvl 200 heroic badge libram, which is an efficiency libram.
2.  HL builds do not require spell power, they require longevity. Also, the only time an HL build uses Holy Shock is:
a.  You're moving
b.  Someone is possibly going to die before you can cast FoL or HL.
3.  FoL builds do require spell power, in which case go do arena for a couple of weeks, and get a libram that:
a.  Doesn't require repeated use of a mana and HPS inefficient heal with a cooldown to keep up and
b.  Has way more spell power in any case.

On top of that, the 245 libram has nearly 100% uptime if you use HL consistently, doesn't require stacking, and is only slightly less spell power, assuming you even wanted it.  Which most holy paladins don't, as they are using the HL mana efficiency libram, or the pvp flash of light libram.

Similar arguments apply to the prot and ret librams, with the difference being at least it's adding to a useful stat, and the abilities are part of their regular rotation.  With the added hilarity that ret paladins are noting that the PvE libram will be better than the PvP libram... for PvP.

 :facepalm:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morat20 on October 15, 2009, 10:40:03 AM
What the hell is "Call stabled Pet"?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 15, 2009, 10:42:57 AM
What the hell is "Call stabled Pet"?

A level 80 ability that allows you to use a pet stable from anywhere in the world on a 30 min timer.  It's AWESOME!  Being able to swap pets on the fly is wonderful when you get summoned for a BG or WG.  Just change specs and grab your pvp pet without hitting a town.  Also nice for pet swapping from tank to dps on the fly for pve. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 15, 2009, 10:43:30 AM
What the hell is "Call stabled Pet"?

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=62757

I am glad to see the changes to Improved fel hunter will prompt me to continue ignoring the talent and using an imp whilst raiding.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: DraconianOne on October 15, 2009, 11:47:04 AM
I understood that the felpup talent actually made it more viable as an aff pet than it currently is?  What have you heard?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 15, 2009, 12:18:50 PM
Yes, actually.  The changes to Improved FelHunter and the Glyph of Lifetap (now procs off of Dark Pact) do make Affliction the highest damage spec on the PTR.  Throw in change for haste and DoT spells (tick faster now) and Affliction goes through the roof as compared to the other 2 builds.  

I may switch to this spec wen the patch goes live:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#Ifxr0zrAoiAohktZE00q:ITMzV0

It's nice t know that no matter how much Blizzard tries, Shadow Bolt will always be in the Affliction's rotation.

Still debating if I want to go Destro for PvP, though,


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 15, 2009, 07:14:32 PM
Quote
Chill of the Throne
   The chilling presence of the Frozen Throne deals Frost damage to all nearby enemies. Removes 1% of your health every 3 sec


this seems to be up throughout the icecrown zone.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 15, 2009, 07:40:01 PM
All of Icecrown?  That can't be right. :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: bhodi on October 15, 2009, 07:55:32 PM
People are postulating a bug since it goes away after the first boss dies.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 16, 2009, 03:04:52 AM
Interesting mechanic


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 16, 2009, 03:47:02 AM
Sunwell Radiance 2.0?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 16, 2009, 06:32:29 AM
Sunwell Radiance 2.0?

I call it 'Instant Rage Generation for AFKers'.

Until the first boss is down, fuck taking a shit, grabbing a pizza, or whatever the hell you think you have to do.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 16, 2009, 08:18:11 AM
Actually, people are saying that it dropping on the first boss kill is the bug. Supposedly it gets stronger the closer to the frozen throne you get.  Mind you it's only base health so 1% is only about 77hp or something like that but it would potentially get much worse.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 16, 2009, 08:23:10 AM
Why not call it the "pad the meters for Resto Druids" aura?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 16, 2009, 02:12:46 PM
Why not call it the "pad the meters for Resto Druids" aura?


Healing stream totem, I choose you!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on October 16, 2009, 02:20:45 PM
Actually, people are saying that it dropping on the first boss kill is the bug. Supposedly it gets stronger the closer to the frozen throne you get.  Mind you it's only base health so 1% is only about 77hp or something like that but it would potentially get much worse.

If that's true, it's quite possibly the stupidest thing they've ever implemented in a dungeon. Obviously we don't need breaks, and we enjoy getting hit by magical auras that never stop. I mean, can you eat with that up?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 16, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
Actually, people are saying that it dropping on the first boss kill is the bug. Supposedly it gets stronger the closer to the frozen throne you get.  Mind you it's only base health so 1% is only about 77hp or something like that but it would potentially get much worse.

If that's true, it's quite possibly the stupidest thing they've ever implemented in a dungeon. Obviously we don't need breaks, and we enjoy getting hit by magical auras that never stop.


Break Area's are probably sections the Dawn or EbonBlade have already broken into, if it does go in as is.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on October 16, 2009, 02:28:17 PM
I mean, can you eat with that up?
Just like the old days of Strat with the 30m diseases that interrupted eating every 5s...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 16, 2009, 04:05:00 PM
 :ye_gods:

(http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/october/boss_10596_1.jpg)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 16, 2009, 04:38:11 PM
New patch going up tonight, notes are up at mmo-champion.com, I am too lazy to cut and paste them all but I am most excited about:


# Top-level helm and shoulder faction-related enchants are now available as Bind-on-Account items that do not require any faction to use once purchased (they still require the appropriate faction level to purchase).

YES

SUCK IT FROST GIANTS POLISH YOUR OWN HELMET


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on October 16, 2009, 05:18:18 PM
Best change ever.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on October 16, 2009, 05:30:03 PM
:ye_gods:
*snip* Probably quite a nice chap if you took the time to know him *snip*

Neither Igor here or his good friend Bone Daddy (as seen on MMO-champ) looks right, yet. Unfinished and quite obviously just plain wrong texture mapping problems. On the other hand, super batwing magicpony (also as seen on MMO-champ)  is fully rendered and complete, he just looks a bit... special.

Also, Mage T10 looks like someone murdered and skinned a family of Sims. Wat.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 16, 2009, 05:35:25 PM
With the latest warlock changes, it's clear Affliction is meant to use the Fel hunter, and the Destro is meant to use the imp.   It will be interesting to see how more damage I can do with my new talent build.  If they could figure out how to remove Shadow Bolt from my rotation, I'd be really happy.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 16, 2009, 06:52:47 PM
Last time I check the Succy is still the highest DPS pet for Affliction, did they buff anything or is it worth the slight DPS hit to take the hunter for mana regen?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 16, 2009, 08:04:17 PM
Basically, they added more damage to Afflication viathe fel hunter's shadow bite.  IFH will boost the damage of SB by 15% and now apparently Pandemic will boost crit damage of SB by 100%.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 17, 2009, 03:16:49 AM
IFH will boost the damage of SB by 15%.

I see.  Pandemic change and IFH change.

Why the hell do they seem to take great delight in shoehorning players into using a specific pet for each spec?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on October 17, 2009, 03:22:44 AM
Because it makes sense.

I love my Fel Doggy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 17, 2009, 04:05:42 AM
IFH will boost the damage of SB by 15%.

I see.  Pandemic change and IFH change.

Why the hell do they seem to take great delight in shoehorning players into using a specific pet for each spec?


If they don't make each spec have it's own superior pet, then every Warlock will use the exact same pet, the one with the highest raid DPS, 95% of the time. Despite the 'shoehorning', this actually promotes warlock pet diversity for the overall game. Also helps with spec identity and allows for better pet/spec interaction.


The only real loser pet is the Succubus really, it has a narrow PvP niche at this point and that's about it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: DraconianOne on October 17, 2009, 04:29:24 AM
Yes, actually.  The changes to Improved FelHunter and the Glyph of Lifetap (now procs off of Dark Pact) do make Affliction the highest damage spec on the PTR.  Throw in change for haste and DoT spells (tick faster now) and Affliction goes through the roof as compared to the other 2 builds.  

I may switch to this spec wen the patch goes live:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#Ifxr0zrAoiAohktZE00q:ITMzV0

Surprised you're going for Grim Reach & Shadowburn over Death's Embrace.

EDIT: For that matter, Improved Drain Soul over Soul Siphon?

EDIT 2: Just to be clear, I'm curious, not criticizing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 17, 2009, 09:26:50 AM
If they don't make each spec have it's own superior pet, then every Warlock will use the exact same pet, the one with the highest raid DPS, 95% of the time. Despite the 'shoehorning', this actually promotes warlock pet diversity for the overall game. Also helps with spec identity and allows for better pet/spec interaction.

The only real loser pet is the Succubus really, it has a narrow PvP niche at this point and that's about it.

No, it doesn't help, because then you just whip out the Felhunter the vast majority of the time.

Really, they should all do the same base DPS and be selected on the basis of which abilities you need.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 17, 2009, 02:08:07 PM
Destruction will still want to use the Imp
Demo the Felguard

Destro and Aff will use the Void whenever they need a tank


Woo we are using them all! Except the Succubus, she's just for Silvermoon RP sessions now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 17, 2009, 06:15:07 PM
Yes, actually.  The changes to Improved FelHunter and the Glyph of Lifetap (now procs off of Dark Pact) do make Affliction the highest damage spec on the PTR.  Throw in change for haste and DoT spells (tick faster now) and Affliction goes through the roof as compared to the other 2 builds.  

I may switch to this spec wen the patch goes live:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#Ifxr0zrAoiAohktZE00q:ITMzV0

Surprised you're going for Grim Reach & Shadowburn over Death's Embrace.

EDIT: For that matter, Improved Drain Soul over Soul Siphon?

EDIT 2: Just to be clear, I'm curious, not criticizing.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent#Ifxr0zMAoiAoIktZE00V:ITMVz0

While it's true Drain Soul can put out some impressive numbers, especially when you get the mob under 25%, Shadow Bolt is still better to cast because it does do more damage and it it put 2debuffs on the mob.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 17, 2009, 06:35:56 PM
So only using the one pet intrinsically linked with your spec makes them equally viable?  Is that not like, the definition of not equally viable in addition to being the exact reason that Blizzard introduced dual-specs?

Also, nobody in their right mind uses the Voidwalker to tank.  It simply does not put out enough threat.  It would, however, make for really nice survivability without any loss in DPS in fights with heavy AoE, or for pushback resistance, but that's okay, because I'm sure those functions aren't useful anyways.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 17, 2009, 08:24:28 PM
Not when the raid needs a tank, when the Warlock needs one, like to cheese some elite mob that is fear immune while soloing. (insert link to voidwalker tanking Sarth 3D here)  :why_so_serious:



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 17, 2009, 09:22:37 PM
Last time I checked, they nerfed the ability to do that into the fucking ground, and it required a specialized build to begin with.

Again, a specific build making a single pet useful isn't exactly the definition of equally viable, unless you want to take the shortbus approach and conclude that effectively nothing in the game has ever been not viable because they've always has a niche they could build and/or gear into.

Of course, that may very well be true.  The infernal was an excellent pet in TBC if you happened to need a three second stun that summoned a level 60 pet that did shit for damage and broke incapacitate effects.  And of course the doomguard's niche was to spare a lucky party member a repair bill during a wipe, after which the warlock could use Hellfire to wipe himself in a similar manner, amirite?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 17, 2009, 09:55:39 PM
Of course, that may very well be true.  The infernal was an excellent pet in TBC if you happened to need a three second stun that summoned a level 60 pet that did shit for damage and broke incapacitate effects.  And of course the doomguard's niche was to spare a lucky party member a repair bill during a wipe, after which the warlock could use Hellfire to wipe himself in a similar manner, amirite?
If you're suggesting the doomguard and infernal weren't good in TBC or aren't good now, you're wrong.  Warlocks used the infernal on brutallus precisely because it was more DPS.  The doomguard is currently used by the current theoretical max DPS warlock build.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 17, 2009, 10:02:13 PM
I have no idea what you are even trying to argue anymore Sheep. Let alone what you think I am trying to debate with you apparently.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 17, 2009, 11:42:15 PM
Last time I checked, they nerfed the ability to do that into the fucking ground, and it required a specialized build to begin with.

Again, a specific build making a single pet useful isn't exactly the definition of equally viable, unless you want to take the shortbus approach and conclude that effectively nothing in the game has ever been not viable because they've always has a niche they could build and/or gear into.

Of course, that may very well be true.  The infernal was an excellent pet in TBC if you happened to need a three second stun that summoned a level 60 pet that did shit for damage and broke incapacitate effects.  And of course the doomguard's niche was to spare a lucky party member a repair bill during a wipe, after which the warlock could use Hellfire to wipe himself in a similar manner, amirite?

in my guild our warlock gm is always, always number one in damage on raid bosses. All of these lock arguments are therefore pointless.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 18, 2009, 01:32:07 AM
If you're suggesting the doomguard and infernal weren't good in TBC or aren't good now, you're wrong.  Warlocks used the infernal on brutallus precisely because it was more DPS.  The doomguard is currently used by the current theoretical max DPS warlock build.

In 2.4 they were nerfed or broken to max out at level 50, same for the doomguard.  I don't recall when they were changed again.

I have no idea what you are even trying to argue anymore Sheep. Let alone what you think I am trying to debate with you apparently.

All the pets should conribute the same DPS regardless of your spec except the Felguard (or the Felguard should be given other things to offset the talent point cost).  The ability sets and buffs granted by the pet should dictate which pet you use for a fight, because the warlock class is obviously designed to be able to swap pets with ease, presumably there is or was a reason for this.  Not a hard concept.

More to the point, more options is better than less, "For your spec you must use the felhunter/imp/felguard or you lose DPS" just encourages people to always use the same pet unless a fight mechanic blatantly requires another.

EDIT: Lakov, I think we all understand that warlocks don't need buffs.  But thanks for pointing out the obvious.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: DraconianOne on October 18, 2009, 01:01:37 PM
Do you play a 'lock Sheep?  Couldn't see your chars in the Expose Yourself thread.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 18, 2009, 03:48:20 PM
I have some serious nostalgia for Scholomance. (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Burning+Legion&cn=Gandling&gn=IRONFIST)

It was the last character I leveled, because TBC burned me out on warlock badly, and I just finally hit 80 today.  I'm currently cycling through the various specs to see which I like playing.  Affliction is nice but high maintenance, though I haven't glyphed yet, so my CoA is shorter than it could be.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 18, 2009, 04:47:17 PM
Quote
All the pets should conribute the same DPS regardless of your spec except the Felguard (or the Felguard should be given other things to offset the talent point cost).  The ability sets and buffs granted by the pet should dictate which pet you use for a fight, because the warlock class is obviously designed to be able to swap pets with ease, presumably there is or was a reason for this.  Not a hard concept.


Except neither the Mana dog nor the Succubus provide any kind of meaningful utility to a raid and both are melee limited, so now everyone just uses the Imp. Hurrah for 'choice' ?

Having a Pet relate to a Spec is just like having a Nuke relate to a spec. It allows the pet abilities to interact with the talent and spell choices of the spec in a substantive way. Maybe you want FireMages to be able to cast FrostBolt though? /shrug


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 18, 2009, 05:25:04 PM
Except neither the Mana dog nor the Succubus provide any kind of meaningful utility to a raid and both are melee limited, so now everyone just uses the Imp. Hurrah for 'choice' ?

I hate that.  Right now, as Affliction, I leave the imp on passive as a mana source from DP and HP buff.  If I was Destro, he'd be defensive so I could get the Empowered Imp buff.  These changes to Improved Fel Hunter are positive in my book, because the puppy is my favorite pet.  The only reason I don't use him while questing is that Sacrifice has saved my life more than once. 

Quote
Having a Pet relate to a Spec is just like having a Nuke relate to a spec. It allows the pet abilities to interact with the talent and spell choices of the spec in a substantive way. Maybe you want FireMages to be able to cast FrostBolt though? /shrug

Pets present a special problem that nukes don't in that a Fire spec'ed mage can cast frost bolt.  It's not as good as a frost spec'ed mage, but he can do it.  By tying a pet to specific pet, it means, in general, I will have access to only the powers on that pet, and I want others, I need to blow a cooldown or wait a long time.  I don't think the pets should have the same dps because they all do offer diferent powrrs and are designed for different situations, but I completely understand where Blizzard is coming from because a warlock is more reliant on his or het pet regalrdd of his or her spec than say n unholy DK or a B<M hunter.

They can, it's just not as good


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 18, 2009, 06:45:39 PM
On that same notion, every caster 'can' melee too. Doesn't make it a good idea 99% of the time. Choice isn't really choice if there is a clearly superior choice to choose from.


/She sells seas shells by the sea shore


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 18, 2009, 07:51:04 PM
Except neither the Mana dog nor the Succubus provide any kind of meaningful utility to a raid and both are melee limited, so now everyone just uses the Imp. Hurrah for 'choice' ?

Imp: Easiest to manage, supplies health buff to casters (might be better suited on the voidwalker, or not, depending on usage of the respective pets).
Succy: Thunderclap debuff (Soothing Kiss) lets the tank use higher DPCT abilities (it's only 10% atm), something else probably needed (Fortitude?)
Voidwalker: Sacrifice for pushback-less casting on low damage high frequency AoE, making it an alternative to Intensity/Fel Concentration.
Fel Hunter: Mana return, interrupt, purge.

Could also give appropriate melee pets a cheat death, Reincarnation (Improved Feign Death), or a "Your summon spells are instant cast and cost no mana after your pet dies."  Or something along that line, to improve the comparison between Imp and non-Imp.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 18, 2009, 08:35:54 PM

Imp: Easiest to manage


Everyone uses the Imp, hurrah!


3 of 4 tanks apply their T-Clap debuffs as a side effect of their normal tanking rotations. A AP debuff would match up better then Fort, but still would be moot for 3 of 4 tanks.

The Void walker is never going to have DPS comparable to the other pets, and the pushback protection isn't going to out weigh the DPS loss.

The Mana Dog cleanse and interrupt aren't going to be reliable and readily usable for a raid, not compared to Free Health EZ-Street imp.


None of the pet abilities are on par with actual class abilities. The mythical realm of swapping pets in and out as situation requires died around the same time they made Druid forms spec specific. The idea just doesn't work in practice.



Affliction will use the Mana Dog for DPS, and the Voidwalker if they need to solo tank something for a quest.

Demonology will use the Succubus for DPS untill they can spec Felguard. They'll use the Voidwalker to solo tank untill Felguard again.

Destruction will use the Imp for DPS, and the Voidwalker to solo tank etc.


The only real loser will be the succubus, she's just a shitty CC bot once the felguard shows up (The Felguard pretty much fucks everything up if you really look at all the pets, but it isn't going away at this point). If a raid REALLY needs something seduced, the locks will break out the bus, just like if they REALLY need another interrupt, the mana dog shows up. The only thing that the shoehorning is doing, is ensuring every spec isn't using the Imp the other 95% of the time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 18, 2009, 09:21:31 PM
The Void walker is never going to have DPS comparable to the other pets, and the pushback protection isn't going to out weigh the DPS loss.

Right.  Blizzard shouldn't buff Voidwalker DPS because it will never be equal to other pet DPS, I get it.  But if that's the case, shouldn't you want them to buff the Voidwalker to increase the DPS of everything else?

TL; DR: it's always been this way and always will be this way is not a compelling argument, try harder.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 18, 2009, 09:27:30 PM
This sounds a lot like an argument between two people that don't play warlocks.   Apologies if you do.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 18, 2009, 09:35:40 PM
No, but we're fine for DPS.  So we have to bitch and argue about pets.  Or maybe armor set appearances and the lack of an outfit tab.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 18, 2009, 09:43:21 PM
Warlock set armor is far superior to most class choices really, way more 'hits' then 'misses' overall.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on October 18, 2009, 09:59:50 PM
No, but we're fine for DPS.  So we have to bitch and argue about pets.  Or maybe armor set appearances and the lack of an outfit tab.
It's always been this way and always will be this way.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: DraconianOne on October 19, 2009, 12:03:04 AM
My everyday/questing spec is an aff/demon hybrid. (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Wildhammer&cn=Mordraen&gn=Nil+Desperandum)  I've recently been using this on heroics too as it tends to give me better DPS on trash than my pure aff build (which is also talented for Demonic Power to increase succ/imp dps).   I've never played Destro although I feel I should give it a go as it's meant to be easier.

I regularly cycle pets although I rarely use Imp unless we're in need of the stam buff. I will occasionally use Felpup for the Int buff if the group is entirely made up of mana classes or if there's another lock with an Imp out. I use Succ for DPS and occasional crowd control if we're lacking in that department.  I don't use the voidy much unless I'm in need of soloing elites (like the G5 elite frostwyrm quest in Dragonblight which I did at the right level irrc) in which case it gets used along with a threat meter.  It's slow, but possible.

I love my hybrid spec.  Can normally AOE an area clear in not much time and the only downtime I face is because I've run out of things to kill.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 19, 2009, 07:04:39 AM
Switch your meta (don't gem for int either).  Your PVE gear is almost identical to mine.  Hooray for not raiding.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: DraconianOne on October 19, 2009, 11:01:42 AM
TBH, the AH was pretty sparse with gems that I was willing to part money on so I took whatever I could find with +SP.  Never normally spec for +int.  Don't feel I can justify spending 150-200g a pop on epic gems so I took what I could at the time and there was no +STA and no other metas with +SP.  When our guild JC comes back, I will be cornering him and pinning him down for better gems.  (Even our Guild bank was only full of +AP or some such crap).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 19, 2009, 04:34:53 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41285


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 19, 2009, 05:16:22 PM
I'm not sure I'd use that, even I was SL/FG.  Unless you're Destro, warlocks tend to go for SP or Haste. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 19, 2009, 05:56:00 PM
For a dpser, 3% bigger crits basically outweighs anything any other meta can give you (though melees should really use the 21 agility/3% critsize version of that since it only requires 1 blue gem instead).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 19, 2009, 08:52:41 PM
I'm not sure I'd use that, even I was SL/FG.  Unless you're Destro, warlocks tend to go for SP or Haste.

There has not ever been a caster spec where that meta or it's TBC equivalent is not best in slot.  That includes Affliction back in TBC, including early TBC where the only variant of that gem available was the agility / +crit bonus one (as I recall).  Which they then changed by nerfing the melee one and adding a casting one.

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=1016252493


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 20, 2009, 06:25:23 AM
Well color me confused.  I was under the impression that Affliction was the only talent line that didn't make use of Crit as compared to the others lines.  I know Pandemic tries to fix that, but I always aim for haste and spell power because haste makes DoTs tick faster.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 20, 2009, 07:09:41 AM
haste makes DoTs tick faster.

Not until 3.3 and only with a glyph at the moment.  Stat weights are still hit (to cap), SP, haste, crit, spi in order.   Haste could overtake SP at really high levels of gear once if the corruption change becomes baseline.  Haste, I believe, will make channeled spells tick faster and shadowbolt spam is still a heavy component of any affliction build.

From EJ regarding the CSD:

Quote
Note: The [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond]'s special effect increases the damage coefficients for critical hits from 150%/200% to 154.5%/209%. This also affects DoT crits, increasing our DPS by 50.37 / 79.98 / 125.19 . So, the effect itself completely outdamages every other Meta Gem, making CSD a clear choice. As a side note, the +2% Intellect of the Ember Skyflare Diamond are in fact a dps increase, but a small one: E.g. with 1000 Intellect buffed, it would only give ~4.2 dps.
There is some discussion about using the run speed Meta because Death Knights do not give the raidwide runspeed increase anymore, but the feet enchant seems a more reasonable choice if you decide you need the extra speed: The whole Icewalker Enchant is worth 29.2 dps, less than half of the Meta Gem effect.

The best any other meta can muster is a 35DPS increase.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 20, 2009, 08:34:26 AM
Well color me confused.  I was under the impression that Affliction was the only talent line that didn't make use of Crit as compared to the others lines.  I know Pandemic tries to fix that, but I always aim for haste and spell power because haste makes DoTs tick faster.

Very few (maybe only Frostfire?) caster specs scale well enough with crit to stack it, but for all of the the CSD meta is best in slot.

That didn't help your confusion, did it?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 20, 2009, 08:48:51 AM
Not at all..

Although most other talents lines have talents that specifically boost crit chance and crit damage, like Ruin and Devastation, so I thought those talents plus crit was better than spell haste. It seems as though my understanding of casting mechanics is outdated.  Whe the amory cpmes back online, I'll post my character and get some advice on how to improve her damage.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 20, 2009, 09:35:39 AM
Short answer:

33 haste rating is 1% haste.  46 crit rating is 1% crit chance.  The stats on gear are purposefully unbalanced to favour haste, because haste would actually be pretty terrible compared to crit if they were equal point for point.  Conversely, because talents give percent buffs rather than ratings the crit chance talents are highly valuable.

Both stats scale in a multiplicative fashion, whereas spell power scales additively.  Thus spellpower begins as the best stat and is constantly decreasing in value as you gain upgrades/raid buffs, crit and haste however always scale at the same rate until you start hitting caps and so become exceedingly good at high levels of gear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 20, 2009, 10:31:01 AM
Some interesting changes since I last followed WOW closely.  I like the faction change etc.  I havn't played since... god March?  April maybe?

The only thing I think that keeps me from seeing how insane I am and paying for this game again is the gold grind.  I think all my characters are broke.  That and I know no one that plays the game.

Maybe I'll level up a new toon with Cataclysm with all the changes. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 20, 2009, 10:34:50 AM
The only thing I think that keeps me from seeing how insane I am and paying for this game again is the gold grind.  I think all my characters are broke.  That and I know no one that plays the game.

There are a ridiculous amount of easy dailies available at 80.  Not to mention the Argent Tournament is a gold factory.  A lot of professions can make pretty good money too with little effort.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 20, 2009, 11:01:00 AM
Aion was the first MMOG I've attempted to play while living with a girlfriend.  It's nearly impossible.  Which makes me finally realize why so many people like WOW.

Anyway.  Beyond the gold grind, what would motivate me to play again?  I have a 68 Priest, 70 Paladin/Shaman, 80 DK.  I have a 60 hunter on another account I used to RAF with.  My DK was fun but getting a group to do anything was nearly impossible.  Then I picked up a new BE priest (since my 68 was a dwarf on a shitty server) and I wanted to play on the same server as my DK and now I find out they stink as well. 

I guess the game has gotten stale to me.  I want to come back, but the reality of it is that I don't think I'd server the transition from 60-80 again.  Or even 1-60 playing another class.

I'll see if I'm still itching when Borderlands comes out.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on October 20, 2009, 12:07:30 PM
Gold is pretty easy to come by.  Taking my Druid from 1-79 I was able to afford everything except for the final riding training.  I had a small amount of help with dual spec but paid for most of it myself.  The outland riding also had help, but I got it a few months before they dropped the cost of everything.  Once I hit 80 I suspect I'll be able to pay back the riding training fairly quickly.

Gathering professions still seem to sell well if your server is populated, so you can easily supplement your income with those.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 20, 2009, 01:22:30 PM
Assuming a decent server, which class have the easiest time getting groups these days?  I'm assuming it's still healers then tanks of any flavor then DPS.  Has it gotten class specific yet?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 20, 2009, 01:28:16 PM
Assuming a decent server, which class have the easiest time getting groups these days?  I'm assuming it's still healers then tanks of any flavor then DPS.  Has it gotten class specific yet?

Paladins seem to be the safe & preferred choice for tanks, although I grouped with a particularly shitty one yesterday. DKs and bears seem to be less desirable, although really, no PUG is going to refuse a tank on spec unless it's gear checking HTOC groups.

Healers, it doesn't seem to matter. Shaman just seem to be the least common.

On my less than decent server, it seems to be tanks, healers, dps in terms of need. Sometimes a group will specify ranged dps needed, but not often.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 20, 2009, 01:33:56 PM
DKs have still got a bit of that old "huntard" stigma so you'll see PUGs be a lot more picky about DK tanks than the other ones, I think.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 20, 2009, 01:41:40 PM
Paladin tanks eh?  That's interesting I played one back in TBC and did Kara a few times.  She's still sitting there at level 70.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 20, 2009, 01:52:13 PM
I've never managed to wrap my head around the disdain that the WoW 'community' has for bear tanks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 20, 2009, 02:08:43 PM
For 5-mans, roll a tank, nobodies picky about class, althuogh if you don't have 30k health they might boot you.  You don't see many DKs because bad DPS always roll up DKs thinking it's their class that is holding them back and not that they suck ass.  Paladins >> Druids > Warriors ~ DKs in raiding.  It's very rare to see bear tanks in 5-mans for a variety of reasons (It's stupidly simple to play, it doesn't feel interactive, they're not the Best Tank, resto druids siphon off a lot of the personality types that would tank if they were a DK or warrior, they have two strong PVP specs so that eats up dual specs).  If you want to raid, roll a healer that isn't a priest (More than any other class, a LOT of people rolled priest to heal, so most guilds are full up on priests, plus shadow priests are sad so the few that rolled shadow to melt faces are forced to heal to raid).  Due to the tank:healer:DPS ratios and the kinds of personalities attracted to tanking, most raids are covered on their tanking needs.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on October 20, 2009, 02:19:55 PM
I've never managed to wrap my head around the disdain that the WoW 'community' has for bear tanks.
Bear ass.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 20, 2009, 02:38:08 PM
For 5-mans, roll a tank, nobodies picky about class, althuogh if you don't have 30k health they might boot you.  You don't see many DKs because bad DPS always roll up DKs thinking it's their class that is holding them back and not that they suck ass.  Paladins >> Druids > Warriors ~ DKs in raiding.  It's very rare to see bear tanks in 5-mans for a variety of reasons (It's stupidly simple to play, it doesn't feel interactive, they're not the Best Tank, resto druids siphon off a lot of the personality types that would tank if they were a DK or warrior, they have two strong PVP specs so that eats up dual specs).  If you want to raid, roll a healer that isn't a priest (More than any other class, a LOT of people rolled priest to heal, so most guilds are full up on priests, plus shadow priests are sad so the few that rolled shadow to melt faces are forced to heal to raid).  Due to the tank:healer:DPS ratios and the kinds of personalities attracted to tanking, most raids are covered on their tanking needs.

So basically make a druid?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: bhodi on October 20, 2009, 02:40:24 PM
Yes, make a druid. They are the most versatile and by time you hit 80 you migth want to try something new, that's cool, druid can do it all. You won't have to reroll.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 20, 2009, 02:49:02 PM
I've played a Warrior, Priest, Paladin, DK, Shaman all in endgame situations since Molten Core. 

This is my longest time off of WOW, and I really don't want to go back, I really don't want to level from 1-60 (60+ isn't all that bad)... again.  So I'm not sure why I'm even engaging in this conversation with myself.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 20, 2009, 02:50:11 PM
I see no issues with using your paladin.  Only thing off limits is ranged DPS.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 20, 2009, 04:17:08 PM
I've never managed to wrap my head around the disdain that the WoW 'community' has for bear tanks.

Me either, because they are awesome, and have been for a while. My only outright rejection (the healer fled the group while it was forming) was on my bear tank, because the healer felt bears were not real tanks. That was in TBC (I haven't tanked PUGs much in WotLK), but I was still surprised, because bear tanks were perfectly fine for fuckin' five mans.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on October 20, 2009, 05:29:06 PM
plus shadow priests are sad so the few that rolled shadow to melt faces are forced to heal to raid

Still melting faces since I rolled Shadow Priest in January. It's a hard life, but it's still possible to live the Dream!
Though thinking about it, that might be because my Guild are a very understanding bunch...

...very understanding about me possibly being even worse at healing than DPS.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lt.Dan on October 20, 2009, 07:15:39 PM
I've never managed to wrap my head around the disdain that the WoW 'community' has for bear tanks.
Bear ass.

Being a healer in frequent PUGs the biggest problem with a Bear tank is that DPS can't count to 3 while waiting for the tank to grab aggro.  They're so used to Pallie tanks instantly grabbing aggro on all the mobs.

The typically pull goes.  Tank pulls and starts to get aggro on all mobs...1...1 and a half....dps goes AE on the group and grabs aggro...messy pull as the tank rounds up all the mobs.  Pull #2 - tank says 'ok guys wait for me to get aggro'...1...1 and a half....dps goes AE :P


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 20, 2009, 07:22:52 PM
I really wish I could buy WOW by the hour/day.  I have a hankering to play but I don't need a monthly sub.  I think I'd get it out of my system in a few hours.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on October 20, 2009, 10:39:26 PM
Being a healer in frequent PUGs the biggest problem with a Bear tank is that DPS can't count to 3 while waiting for the tank to grab aggro.  They're so used to Pallie tanks instantly grabbing aggro on all the mobs.
That really is the main issue I noticed with bear tanks.  DPS won't wait like in the old days for 5 sunders or whatever to let the tank build aggro.  They unleash on the mob (or worse, they don't know how to assist and randomly target all 3-4) and the tank loses aggro quickly.  Especially with the cooldowns on the taunts that the bear has, you can blow them all on one fight and still lose aggro to DPS.  DK's, Pallies, and warriors all do a much better job that I've found in my experience (I have run with some damn good bear tanks though, so it's not all doom and gloom and is definitely possible to be a good tank as one).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morfiend on October 20, 2009, 11:18:07 PM
I really wish I could buy WOW by the hour/day.  I have a hankering to play but I don't need a monthly sub.  I think I'd get it out of my system in a few hours.

Aion make you want to play WoW also?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 21, 2009, 06:18:28 AM
I really wish I could buy WOW by the hour/day.  I have a hankering to play but I don't need a monthly sub.  I think I'd get it out of my system in a few hours.

Aion make you want to play WoW also?

No not really.  I've been bored at work and for shits and giggles I opened up a few WOW threads.  I got nostalgic, but I know I wouldn't be able to put up with the game for more than one play session most likely.  

I like the preparation and the character building that comes with the "end game" whether that's 5man or raiding.  I like the optimization etc.  I hate the journey though.  But I know it's the enjoyment of the "idea" and not that actual actions of it.  I've done it to many times to put up with the time it takes to get a new character from level 1 to 80; especially without a guild or people I know. 

I don't want to RAF again, and I don't have enough stuff for heirlooms.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on October 21, 2009, 08:10:02 AM
Well, Paladin and Priest T10 previews are up at MMO-Champion. I have to say, while the helmet is obviously bugged, the rest of the Pally set is a work of art, there's so much detail in it that it looks like it's been done by an entirely different generation art team to the one that did the Priest set (which looks rather mage-y to me, and echoes the dead sim's mood crystal theme). Priest isn't bad, in fact it's relatively tasteful, for which I am thankful, but graphically it's not in the same ball-park as Pally T10.

Horrible Flesh Golem Baby guys have been properly rendered now and look fantastic.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 21, 2009, 08:26:06 AM
The new LFG tool and Daily Random Dungeon. (http://s.nihilum.eu/image/image/mainsite/news/2009/oct/21/newlfg.jpg)

Looks like we're going to be doing a complete pug once a day for money and badges.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 21, 2009, 08:29:36 AM
It'll be like russian roulette, except with bullets that have a severe learning disability.

Edit:  It'll depend on how the rewards scale.  If it's always 2 frost badges, and only the gold scales, then I doubt I'll ever attempt this with anything but guildies.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 21, 2009, 08:31:38 AM
68g doesn't seem like a lot.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 21, 2009, 08:34:13 AM
68g doesn't seem like a lot.

On top of tokens and the cash you make running the dungeon?  Seems like plenty to me. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 21, 2009, 08:34:36 AM
At this point, 68 gold is enough to cover eight wipes for my paladin.

I can see maybe forming a PUG for kicks, and seeing what dungeon it selects for your displeasure.  HUK?  Fine.  HOK or HOc?  Hell fucking no.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on October 21, 2009, 08:40:50 AM
Anything that encourages less of the current formula of 'You must have 226 ilvl gear to go to dungeon that drops ilvl 219' has got to be a good thing.  Personally, I always say form your own groups.  But the internet is full of social retards.  Think of this as speed dating for loot.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 21, 2009, 08:46:15 AM
It apparently will also teleport you directly to the dungeon, so makes it easy to get a foot into the boiling water.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on October 21, 2009, 09:12:33 AM
That sounds great fun. I do the daily heroic in PUGs every day and have a nearly zero ratio of terrible:excellent groups, but maybe I'm just lucky on my server.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 21, 2009, 09:38:20 AM
I'm looking forward to that tool, it has a promise of making it a little tolerable to run a dungeon.  Anyways, here's my character.  Looking for suggestion on how to improve her:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Andorhal&n=Delily


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 21, 2009, 10:19:34 AM
I assume this is just the armory bugging out, but equip some rings if not  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on October 21, 2009, 10:40:04 AM
I noticed that myself, I'm using the two SP rings from the HH/


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 21, 2009, 11:18:25 AM
Another new model. (http://s.nihilum.eu/image/image/mainsite/news/2009/oct/21/lavaman.jpg) Lavaman. (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/october/lavaman.jpg)

People are assuming that due to the bottom part it's definitely Bolvar, per the 'Immolated Champion' comment in Ulduar.

Bolvar (http://static.wowhead.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/94875.jpg) as he appeared before he died.

My first thought is it was a human form for Deathwing.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 21, 2009, 11:52:43 AM
Another new model. (http://s.nihilum.eu/image/image/mainsite/news/2009/oct/21/lavaman.jpg) Lavaman. (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/october/lavaman.jpg)

People are assuming that due to the bottom part it's definitely Bolvar, per the 'Immolated Champion' comment in Ulduar.

Bolvar (http://static.wowhead.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/94875.jpg) as he appeared before he died.

My first thought is it was a human form for Deathwing.



No question, it's bolvar.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on October 21, 2009, 11:54:54 AM
They should use that frame for the human PC model.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 21, 2009, 12:18:54 PM
I noticed that myself, I'm using the two SP rings from the HH/

Those are good starters.  The MP5 is somewhat wasted on one of the rings.  You could replace that will the titantium spellshock or the ring from H UK.

-You could start doing Wintergrasp.  25 marks could net you a nice SP or hit trinket. Some pvp gear will be upgrades for you.  
-There's a trinket at the start of the Icecrown quests that's a decent crit trinket.  
-Get a new weapon.  Either buy a titansteel spellblade or do enough argent tournament to get the weapon there.  You're missing out on a couple hundred SP.  Offhands should be cheap AH purchase (or make them with inscription)
-Very nice cloak you can get out of Ebon Blade for only honored rep.
-There's a decent neck piece you can get out of HVH I think, along with a hit trinket.  It's easy so if you're doing shit dps it likely won't matter.
-You should only be gemming really for SP or hit at your level of gear.  
-Get some cheap enchants on your stuff that's actually decent. No reason your gloves and legs shouldn't have enchants.  No reason your belt shouldn't have a socket.
-Faction want out of the Oracles is nice.
-Replace the Siphon Life glyph for a COA glyph in your DPS spec.
-Hat Wintry Doom should be cheap and it has a slot for a meta.

That should be enough to get you started.  Run heroics and buy yourself some tier 8.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on October 21, 2009, 02:48:55 PM
You guys are better at this than I am...when do y'all think the patch will be out? Ballpark. I know it's futile to ask most times, but depending on how long it is I may not be in the country any more.

Edit: Thanks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 21, 2009, 02:55:44 PM
They've got the raid fights starting testing in the PTR now so I'd guess no more than a month, month and a half tops.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Drubear on October 21, 2009, 04:37:15 PM
re: Random Dungeon LFG. What level was your char? And I see icons for Tank, Heal and DMG, but what's the crown? Also, if you're 80 can you sometimes get random classic Deadmines? That's an easy 68g...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 21, 2009, 09:24:32 PM
The crown means you're willing to be the leader.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on October 22, 2009, 03:36:06 PM
Hey, this is a pretty nifty bug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSyj0IGZwo4
...and it still works on the Test servers, too.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 23, 2009, 07:11:55 AM
Supposedly you can do the "random" dungeon daily with an already selected group of 5 people if you want to avoid the "pugs suck" part.  You just wont get the extra rewards that scale based on the number of random people in your party.   Just form a group and spin the wheel.   So basicly, if you know a good tank and a good healer, you could form a 2 person (or 3 person) group, and let the wheel of disaster pick 2 dps to fill the spots for you to carry.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Oban on October 23, 2009, 07:20:20 AM
Hey, this is a pretty nifty bug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSyj0IGZwo4
...and it still works on the Test servers, too.

Err, can other people see you in the new model or is it a client side glitch only?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Malakili on October 23, 2009, 07:30:25 AM
Supposedly you can do the "random" dungeon daily with an already selected group of 5 people if you want to avoid the "pugs suck" part.  You just wont get the extra rewards that scale based on the number of random people in your party.   Just form a group and spin the wheel.   So basicly, if you know a good tank and a good healer, you could form a 2 person (or 3 person) group, and let the wheel of disaster pick 2 dps to fill the spots for you to carry.

A friend and I once leveled a warrior/priest combo together under the assumption that "as long as we've got a tank and healer, we can find any 3 idiots to dps."  This was during Burning Crusade.   As it turns out, any three random people most often could not actually DPS well enough  (and more often, no CC well enough, cause this is back when CC mattered quite a lot).

Nowadays is a much more reasonable plan I think though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 23, 2009, 09:03:47 AM
Err, can other people see you in the new model or is it a client side glitch only?

It will be client only.  The server won't be polling your client for model data when it has all that shit stored on-site, right?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Signe on October 23, 2009, 05:12:29 PM
If you're doing the Halloween quests and have some weighted pumpkins to throw at people, throw it just as they leave on a gryphon.  It'll follow them as far as you can see in the distance.  It's funny!  I'm sure it's even more funny if you turn your camera around while you're the one being chased. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 23, 2009, 05:14:28 PM
New PTR notes up and put below in the spoiler, diffs courtesy of World of Raids.


All of those changes are good.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 23, 2009, 05:58:24 PM
If you're doing the Halloween quests and have some weighted pumpkins to throw at people, throw it just as they leave on a gryphon.  It'll follow them as far as you can see in the distance.  It's funny!  I'm sure it's even more funny if you turn your camera around while you're the one being chased. 

You can do this on the deeprun tram too.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 23, 2009, 08:05:53 PM
Quote
* Knockbacks no longer dismount players. If on a flying mount, you will be knocked back a short distance before being able to resume flying.

Hah, fuck you, moonkin!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 23, 2009, 08:16:21 PM
Quote
* Knockbacks no longer dismount players. If on a flying mount, you will be knocked back a short distance before being able to resume flying.

Hah, fuck you, moonkin!


 :cry2:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on October 23, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
All of those changes are good.

Nerfing the new Predatory Swiftness buff to near uselessness is good?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 26, 2009, 03:17:48 PM
FEEEEESH: http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/northrend%27s-new-kalu%27ak-fishing-derby!/

-edit- Fixing Link, I think.  (http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/northrend%27s-new-kalu%27ak-fishing-derby!/)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on October 26, 2009, 03:19:08 PM
FEEEEESH: http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/northrend%27s-new-kalu%27ak-fishing-derby!/

8pm. Fantastic.  My son's bedtime.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 26, 2009, 05:48:36 PM
Heirloom ring is pretty cool; might actually have a go at this one.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 27, 2009, 02:25:10 AM
If you're doing the Halloween quests and have some weighted pumpkins to throw at people, throw it just as they leave on a gryphon.  It'll follow them as far as you can see in the distance.  It's funny!  I'm sure it's even more funny if you turn your camera around while you're the one being chased. 

You can do this on the deeprun tram too.
This works with pretty much any in game projectile visual effect that has a travel time.  If you can get your speed up to a point where you are slightly faster then the projectile, it NEVER goes away untill it actually hits your character model.  I once spent about 10 minutes flying around Outlands with a bunch of Shadowbolts chasing me because i could out run them while in flight form :P    Another fun one to do is see how many Booterangs you can get following you around Netherwing Ledge (i think my best count was about 45 or so).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 27, 2009, 03:08:21 AM
I will totally PVE more if I can just click "throw me in as DPS for what the fuck ever" and forget about it, like I was queueing for a BG.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Flinky on October 27, 2009, 03:13:11 AM
If you're doing the Halloween quests and have some weighted pumpkins to throw at people, throw it just as they leave on a gryphon.  It'll follow them as far as you can see in the distance.  It's funny!  I'm sure it's even more funny if you turn your camera around while you're the one being chased. 

An old trick (don't know if it still works) used to use snowballs. Stand near the flight master and toss a snowball just as a party member takes off. It dismounts them to play the knockdown animation, the game cuts to a loading screen and then they instantly appear at their destination. Used to be fantastic for those long haul cross-continent flights.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Signe on October 27, 2009, 06:33:57 AM
I've done it with snowballs and other stuff.  I had just never seen it done with the Jack O Lantern head.  It was very cute.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 28, 2009, 06:00:21 AM
Updated Patch 3.3 Notes (http://www.wow.com/2009/10/27/ptr-patch-3-3-patch-notes-updated/):

Quote
Players can join as individuals, as a full group, or a partial group to look for additional party members.

Groups using this tool will be able to teleport directly to the selected instance. Upon leaving the instance, players will be returned to their original location. If any party member needs to temporarily leave the instance for reagents or repairs, they will have the option to teleport back to the instance. :awesome_for_real:

Players can choose the Random Dungeon option.

The Heroic Wrath of the Lich King Daily Random Dungeon option will award two Emblems of Frost no more than once a day.
The normal Wrath of the Lich King Daily Random Dungeon option will award two Emblems of Triumph no more than once a day.
Continuing to complete Wrath of the Lich King Heroic instances using the Daily Random Dungeon option will award players two additional Emblems of Triumph each time. :awesome_for_real:

Daily Heroic and normal dungeon quests have been removed. These quests have been replaced with weekly raid quests (see the "Quests" section for details).

Level-appropriate rewards will be offered to players who choose the Random Dungeon option for pre-Wrath of the Lich King dungeons.

Players can be placed in a group for a random dungeon no more than once every 15 minutes.

Random Dungeon rewards will be placed in each player's inventory automatically upon completion of the dungeon (final boss killed). A pop-up notification will display any rewards earned through the Dungeon System.

Instead of choosing a random dungeon, players can also choose specific dungeons appropriate for their level range. Multiple instances can be selected at one time. The feature no longer limits the choice to look for only 3 dungeon groups at one time.

Pick-Up Groups
Cross-realm instances are now available and use an improved matchmaking system to assist players in looking for additional party members. As with Battlegrounds, the realms in each Battlegroup are connected.

As part of the matchmaking system,  some of the more difficult dungeons will have a minimum gear requirement.Players also need to meet the requirements for dungeons that require attunement, such as keys or quests. If a player does not meet the requirements for a particular dungeon, a lock icon will be displayed next to that dungeon. Hovering over this icon will display the requirements which have not been met.

Only conjured items and loot dropped in a dungeon for which other party members are eligible can be traded between players from different realms.

A Vote Kick feature will be available in the event a member of a party is not performing to the expectations of the other members.

Players who leave the group prematurely are subject to a Deserter debuff preventing them from using the Dungeon System tool for 15 minutes.

If an existing group loses a member, the leader will be asked if he or she wants to continue the dungeon. Choosing to continue will automatically place the group back into the Dungeon System queue.

A Player will not be placed in a group with people on his or her Ignore list.

Players who take part in groups who have one or more members who have been matched with them randomly from within the Dungeon System will receive extra rewards, up to and including the coveted Perky Pug non-combat pet. The more random players with whom one groups, the faster the pet can be obtained.

The Need Before Greed loot system will be the unalterable default looting system for pick-up groups in the Dungeon System and has been updated.
Need Before Greed will now recognize gear appropriate for a class in three ways: the class must be able to equip the item, pure melee will be unable to roll on spell power items, and classes are limited to their dominant armor type (ex. paladins for plate). All items will still be available via Greed rolls as well as the new Disenchant option should no member be able to use the item.
Players will be able to roll on items with a required minimum level higher than a player's current level.

Quote
Paladin
Sacred Shield: The damage absorption effect from this ability now triggers only once every 30 seconds.
Damn.

And hiding in the wings, but not in the patch:

Quote
Paladin
Holy
Sacred Shield can now only occur every 30 sec. (Up from 6 sec)
Lay on Hands can no longer be cast on yourself.
Infusion of Light now also reduces the cooldown on the effect of Sacred Shield by 12/24 sec.
Aura Mastery now lasts 6 sec. (Down from 10 sec)
:ye_gods:

Quote
Will of the Forsaken now shares a 45-second cooldown with similar effects, including the Medallion of the Horde, Titan-Forged runes, Insignia of the Horde, etc.
I'd care, but I don't play Undead.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on October 28, 2009, 06:16:23 AM
Quote
Paladin

Lay on Hands can no longer be cast on yourself.

That change may be enough to get me to start playing again.  I doubt it will ever make it to live though. 

I hate Belfadins with a passion in pvp.   


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 28, 2009, 06:35:21 AM
Apparently not going live in that form:

Quote
I wouldn't worry too much on the Lay on Hands change at this point. I don't want to promise we won't change the spell for 3.3, but our intent was to revert the others only change before it went out to the PTR, which is why we didn't patch note it. We have already changed it back on our local builds. --GC

I'm sure that's a bitch in PVP.  I personally don't PVP myself, my pally is PVE Prot/PVE Holy.  Generally, if I get stuck in world PVP, I just stand there and die.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 28, 2009, 07:00:14 AM
LOH, army of the dead, & elementals should removed or nerfed until they're appropriate for 10 minute cooldowns.  Having to grind a paladin's HP down three goddamn times for it to finally die is infuriating, although doing it by yourself is extremely satisfying.

In the case of elementals, that might be 'not nerfed at all'.  The only common use for earth elemental I've seen is countering army of the dead and fire isn't much better.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 28, 2009, 11:53:00 AM
I am 100% against lower the cooldown on earth elemental, that would just make it more often that our enhance shaman drops it at totally inopportune times in PVE no matter how many times we tell him not to ARGHGHGHGHGHGH


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 28, 2009, 11:59:08 AM
It would certainly make soloing those three person quests in Dragonblight easier on my 75 shaman.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: El Gallo on October 28, 2009, 02:10:23 PM
Fuck paladins.  It is asinine to refuse to even try to balance 1:1 pvp in a game where 99% of the pvp is essentially 1:1 (i.e. random people fighting on battlegrounds).  And by taking the best rewards out of 2-person arena teams, Blizzard is admitting that they won't ever try to seriously balance 2v2 play either.   I'd pay $100 a month for an account on a battlegroup where paladins were not available and consider it a bargain.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 28, 2009, 03:56:55 PM
Sometimes I run into a DK who has AOTD available while my bubble is down or I've just popped wings, and it's pretty much an instant victory button from them. Somehow I manage to avoid crying big soppy emo tears on every available forum over it, since it's like a 15 minute cooldown being used in a battle that's guaranteed to be over before he can think about doing it again. Suck it up and learn to play, because if 99% of your battleground combat is one-on-one then you're doing it wrong anyway.

Oh hell, who am I kidding? They can remove LOH completely and the same faggot rogue who thinks randomly sapping me in the Field of Strife in AV makes him an awesome death ninja and totally helpful to his team will still run to the forums and bawl his little eyes out about PLATE HEALS AND BUBLE OMG when I turn around and rip his face off.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 28, 2009, 04:25:40 PM
I am 100% against lower the cooldown on earth elemental, that would just make it more often that our enhance shaman drops it at totally inopportune times in PVE no matter how many times we tell him not to ARGHGHGHGHGHGH

You stole my post!


EDIT: Actually, WUA stole the other thing I was thinking of posting. Bitching about paladins and LoH is soooo 2004.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 29, 2009, 01:33:19 AM
Seriously. I am so completely tired of soaking up tears from people who just fell off the turnip truck and went "WHY DOES IT KEEP SAYING IMMUNE WHEN I HIT THIS PALADIN? OMG HAX! TO THE FORUMS!" Yeah, you go ahead and balance around one-on-one. Maybe then I'll get to kill a mage someday.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 29, 2009, 01:58:13 AM
Long ago, when I still actually played my paladin, I used to loooooove when four or five Horde would chase me across AV. I liked to see how far I could get before they managed to kill me (if I got far enough, they would get killed themselves by the Alliance zerg). It was the main time I'd use LoH, I could feel their poutrage through the internets whenever I fired that off. <3


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Triforcer on October 29, 2009, 03:22:54 AM
The last time I played WoW for more than 2 days was pre-BC.  My mage would equip his Goblin Rocket Helmet, I'd fight a pally and be down to zero mana as he popped all his cooldowns.  Then I'd hit him for a guaranteed 30 second sap and bandage and drink to full  :awesome_for_real:  As a finisher, my gnomish death ray was always fun. 

...god world pvp back then was awesome.  I wasn't a pvp god with my engy trinkets by any means, but it was a fun way to win a fight. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 29, 2009, 08:27:36 AM
Maybe then I'll get to kill a mage someday.

HAHAHA!  No.  Blizzard doesn't love us that much.

It's much better than back in BC, when the only PVP I could possibly win was against Warriors/Rogues, and that was just them killing themselves on Holy Shield, Shield Spike and Ret Aura.  Anything else, and I just gave up and died.

Now I have more of a chance.  I see a mage or warlock, I throw my Avenger's Shield and get a small chance to catch them without being nuked from orbit.

They don't balance around 1:1 pvp because it's never going to fucking happen.  The best you'll get is maybe some Paper, Rock, Scissors shit. 

And even then, shit, I'm a Prot Pally.  I use LoH to save against wipes.  If it's too powerful, move it back to the old cooldown and I'll go back to never using the shit for fear the 'real bad wipe' will be the next one.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: dd0029 on October 29, 2009, 10:28:24 AM
I don't get the LoH nerf.  That's one of those things where I am more, Ha!  I made you burn a 15 min CD. 

If they want to nerf something, nerf that fucking hammer.  Make it like fear in that it has a progressive chance to break on damage.  For that matter they need to do the same thing to Hex.  Frankly, CC needs more drastic diminishing returns.  Which is just my way of saying, fuck druids.  God I hate fucking trees in 2s.  If you can't burst them in like 5 seconds, you are out of fucking luck.  I really hate the ones they rub in my suck by staying in caster form nearly the whole time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on October 29, 2009, 10:52:40 AM
For a second I thought you meant the "I FINISH YOU" hammer and was confused. The stun I get though, because no one likes being stunned.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 29, 2009, 10:58:39 AM
I don't get the LoH nerf.  That's one of those things where I am more, Ha!  I made you burn a 15 min CD. 

If they want to nerf something, nerf that fucking hammer.  Make it like fear in that it has a progressive chance to break on damage.  For that matter they need to do the same thing to Hex.
You have no idea what you're talking about.  Hex does break on damage just like fear.  Shaman even have a glyph that makes it take more damage to break.

Retadins were one of the most frustrating classes to fight when my shaman was a fresh, undergeared 80, but once I was sufficiently geared to survive a full duration hammer of justice, they became cute and adorable.  Yesterday, I kited one around in WG for about 8 minutes before he said fuck this and flew away while I was drinking myself back to full mana.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 29, 2009, 12:13:47 PM
You can have the Hammer of Justice as long as you give me some sort of actual distance-closer. Because man, if they trinket out of that stun... Let me tell you, running after a guy who's kiting you with nothing going for you but Hand of Freedom, a repent that breaks on 1 even point of damage, and the fact that you run a whole 15% faster than normal isn't NEARLY as cool as it apparently seems to people.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 29, 2009, 12:33:41 PM
DEPLOY SUNWELL ICECROWN RADIANCE! (http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/chill-of-the-throne-tanking-and-you!/)

I'm just trying to picture the thought process behind this.

Developer:
Hm... two problems.
Low druid tank representation... but I'm sure it could be lower still!
High tank avoidance.
...
I know!  I'll break our promise to never use a stupid mechanic like Sunwell Radiance, and have it affect dodge!
My work here is finished.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 29, 2009, 12:42:22 PM
The best part is I knew this was coming.

I'm sitting here wondering, 'where is all the block rating on fucking Prot Pally/Warrior gear?  Did they forget it existed?  There's a lot of dodge. Every now and then I see some parry.  Doesn't Blizzard see they're going to have to nerf dodge?'

Blizzard nerfs dodge. 

Blizzard, YOU DID THIS!  *points at Heroic Northrend Beasts!*  GOR-FUCKING-MOK!  YOU GAVE ME NO CHOICE!



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 29, 2009, 12:53:53 PM
I hate goddamn Gor'mok the Impaler.  I've seen our tanks get globaled for 53k damage in heroic 10 ToC.  Woo unhealable tank damage!   :oh_i_see:

I've seen sensibly written posts say this avoidance nerf hits all tanks equally, so it should not impact bear tanks in any meaningful way.  OTOH, I'm sure most people with a barely working knowledge of bear tank mechanics (that's meeeee!) will immediately think "... isn't that the only druid avoidance stat, and now it's reduced?  That can't be good for druids at all."

It does reduce the effectiveness of trinkets that give dodge, or proc on dodge, or melee swings that require a dodge to be usable (DK tanks?)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 29, 2009, 01:03:20 PM
I'm sitting here wondering, 'where is all the block rating on fucking Prot Pally/Warrior gear?
If I ever see a single point of block rating or value on prot warrior tier gear again, it'll be too soon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 29, 2009, 01:11:53 PM
I don't think they promised never to use Sunwell Radiance again, but they did say they had a plan to avoid having to go back to it. The problem apparently is they abandoned their gear plan for WotLK at some point due to deciding to introduce the heroic/hard mode stuff and ended up introducing way more tiers of gear then originally planned.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 29, 2009, 02:17:45 PM
Retadins were one of the most frustrating classes to fight when my shaman was a fresh, undergeared 80, but once I was sufficiently geared to survive a full duration hammer of justice, they became cute and adorable.  Yesterday, I kited one around in WG for about 8 minutes before he said fuck this and flew away while I was drinking myself back to full mana.


That is more due to the fact they dramatically nerfed Ret's burst over the patches, then due to gear. If WotLK release Ret was still around, they would be dropping 40k HP tanks inside a HoJ still.

I'm still at a loss as to how they thought buffing Ret up to Raid DPS levels through their instant strikes was going to end well.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 29, 2009, 05:44:01 PM
That is more due to the fact they dramatically nerfed Ret's burst over the patches, then due to gear. If WotLK release Ret was still around, they would be dropping 40k HP tanks inside a HoJ still.

I'm still at a loss as to how they thought buffing Ret up to Raid DPS levels through their instant strikes was going to end well.
My shaman only hit 80 after 3.2.  It's pretty easy to forget just how squishy a fresh 80 is vs geared 80s.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on October 29, 2009, 05:51:57 PM
It's pretty easy to forget just how squishy a fresh 80 is vs geared 80s.
And it becomes *really* obvious on those fresh 80s that never learned how to assist a tank running heroics for the first time...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 29, 2009, 06:30:56 PM
I've seen sensibly written posts say this avoidance nerf hits all tanks equally, so it should not impact bear tanks in any meaningful way.  OTOH, I'm sure most people with a barely working knowledge of bear tank mechanics (that's meeeee!) will immediately think "... isn't that the only druid avoidance stat, and now it's reduced?  That can't be good for druids at all."

With diminishing returns on dodge the debuff hits you harder than everyone else if you have high dodge, because at aforementioned high levels you are paying significantly more item budget for every real percent of avoidance, and druids are compelled to take this avoidance or nothing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lt.Dan on October 29, 2009, 06:51:44 PM
DEPLOY SUNWELL ICECROWN RADIANCE! (http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/chill-of-the-throne-tanking-and-you!/)


Does it apply to the 5-man Icecrown Citadel content too?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on October 29, 2009, 07:15:09 PM
DEPLOY SUNWELL ICECROWN RADIANCE! (http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/chill-of-the-throne-tanking-and-you!/)


Does it apply to the 5-man Icecrown Citadel content too?


Probably not, no.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on October 30, 2009, 01:49:57 AM
That's a stupid way to solve a silly problem.

I missed all this during the Sunwell due to, er, not giving a fuck about the sunwell content.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on October 30, 2009, 01:57:02 AM
I missed all this during the Sunwell due to, er, not giving a fuck about the sunwell content.

As long as this just affects the 10 man and up raid, I could give a fuck. I can always kitty form it. If it affects the five man....fuck it. I wanted to come back this patch cycle too.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 30, 2009, 10:56:26 AM
It isn't going to affect the 5 man stuff, that wouldn't make any sense.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on October 30, 2009, 12:39:24 PM
I've seen sensibly written posts say this avoidance nerf hits all tanks equally, so it should not impact bear tanks in any meaningful way.  OTOH, I'm sure most people with a barely working knowledge of bear tank mechanics (that's meeeee!) will immediately think "... isn't that the only druid avoidance stat, and now it's reduced?  That can't be good for druids at all."

With diminishing returns on dodge the debuff hits you harder than everyone else if you have high dodge, because at aforementioned high levels you are paying significantly more item budget for every real percent of avoidance, and druids are compelled to take this avoidance or nothing.

See, this is exactly what I thought initially as well.  I guess it's countered by the budget value for parry being bad enough that you can't compensate by gearing for parry, so you're better off gearing dodge anyway.  Shield block isn't terribly good when you're talking about 20k+ hits, and although GC says that tanks will be hit more often for less damage, he also notes that tanks will still be able to die in two hits.  Soooo... at a guess, we're looking at tanks having a lot less avoidance, and still eating 20k hits + specials, which means tons of fun watching your tank randomly getting globaled for 60k damage!  I adore fights like that.

DKs are kind of up in arms about Rune Strike, although GC seems to think their concerns are unwarranted.  I guess we'll see.  Lower threat generation, plus lower avoidance, and no block mechanic, all of this could add up to the real impact being on DKs, not druids as I first thought.

I figure all that means is I'll have less overheal, but will continue to spam FoL until I need to spam HL.   :oh_i_see:  Or possibly I'll be forced to spam HL all the time!  That will be even more fun and dynamic.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 30, 2009, 01:35:19 PM
They say the level of incoming damage will be lower and smoother, and the spikes will be predictable sorts of things.

BTW it may be counterintuitive, but putting that big -20% on dodge up front actually doesn't make dodge any less valuable; in fact if this really does translate into lower per-hit boss damage it increases the value of avoidance in general vs. stacking stamina which is really the only meaningful choice tanks have to make gear-wise. Remember, tanks suddenly started gemming for avoidance in Sunwell, and Sunwell *didn't* have the stated goal of toning down (relative) boss damage.

It may take getting into some Icecrown gear before you start seeing people make the switch, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see some avoidance gemming come back as people up their stamina farther from new gear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on October 30, 2009, 02:25:07 PM
DKs are kind of up in arms about Rune Strike, although GC seems to think their concerns are unwarranted.  I guess we'll see.  Lower threat generation, plus lower avoidance, and no block mechanic, all of this could add up to the real impact being on DKs, not druids as I first thought.

Yeah, this is directly where I thought things were aimed. DK tanks have been constantly and consistently nerfed, not because "Omg we din't plan 4 a hole x-tra tier" like GC claims, but because He, as a lead designer, doesn't understand the mechanics of the game he's working on.

 When WOTLK first launched there were plenty of smart theorycrafters out there saying, "Uh, guys.. DKs can hit damn near the avoidance AND armor cap in BLUE gear.. you might want to look at that."   There were some adjustments but nothing big until Dks were the sole tank being looked at for hard modes and Sarth 3d.  Then, suddenly, "oh wow we have to fix this!"   And it's been the same story ever since.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 30, 2009, 02:44:40 PM
Its not just DKs. All tanks have very high levels of total avoidance right now. I'd not be surprised to see rune strike get a threat buff, though, since DK single target threat was already slightly weak and getting less procs could theoretically hurt them. The question is will taking dodge out of the equation lower the procs on it enough that they won't be able to hit it every swing, which probably depends on the DK. The ones who would have trouble probably aren't geared enough to tank in IC anyway, is probably the theory. I guess it would definitely screw a dual wielder tank (not that there are many), for the slow 2h users it is likely to be dependent on where the individual DK sits on parry and such.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 30, 2009, 02:52:15 PM
I just did a bit more research, apparently druids have a higher dodge cap (from which the DR's are calculated).

The people claiming that other tanks gear for dodge anyways, and thus there is no difference are right, for the wrong reason.  Because the amount of gear/talents with parry still decreases the amount of dodge they would have to gear for to get __% level of avoidance, even though that parry is sub-optimal.

The buff is still a fucking retarded solution, when they could fix it by merging all the avoidance DR's into one and equalizing the value of dodge/parry.  Of course, parry still has the haste proc, but that isn't exactly game-breaking, or even wanted in some cases (tanks under the parry cap, which is probably most of them).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on October 30, 2009, 03:09:06 PM

The buff is still a fucking retarded solution, when they could fix it by merging all the avoidance DR's into one and equalizing the value of dodge/parry.  Of course, parry still has the haste proc, but that isn't exactly game-breaking, or even wanted in some cases (tanks under the parry cap, which is probably most of them).

Nah, the real way to fix it is just to keep the ratings lower. The system they have is a little obtuse but it works fine if you input the right numbers into it to start with; the problem is that the rating numbers on gear are just too high for the conversion rate they have, for the very end content. Its fine in lower instances/gear - changing the conversion rate would negatively impact lower-geared players and raise the difficulty of lower instances probably more than they want. This is the most sensible/least-likely-to-introduce-crazy-bugs way to patch it at this point in the content cycle, and they can rebalance it at 80-85 in the expansion patch.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on October 30, 2009, 07:11:50 PM

The buff is still a fucking retarded solution, when they could fix it by merging all the avoidance DR's into one and equalizing the value of dodge/parry.  Of course, parry still has the haste proc, but that isn't exactly game-breaking, or even wanted in some cases (tanks under the parry cap, which is probably most of them).

Nah, the real way to fix it is just to keep the ratings lower. The system they have is a little obtuse but it works fine if you input the right numbers into it to start with; the problem is that the rating numbers on gear are just too high for the conversion rate they have, for the very end content. Its fine in lower instances/gear - changing the conversion rate would negatively impact lower-geared players and raise the difficulty of lower instances probably more than they want. This is the most sensible/least-likely-to-introduce-crazy-bugs way to patch it at this point in the content cycle, and they can rebalance it at 80-85 in the expansion patch.

As GC said, the only reason this happened is because they added extra tiers that weren't originally planned for with the Heroic Raids.  Once Heroic 10 and 25 hit the scene, it all went pear shaped.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on October 31, 2009, 12:52:25 AM
Nah, the real way to fix it is just to keep the ratings lower. The system they have is a little obtuse but it works fine if you input the right numbers into it to start with; the problem is that the rating numbers on gear are just too high for the conversion rate they have, for the very end content. Its fine in lower instances/gear - changing the conversion rate would negatively impact lower-geared players and raise the difficulty of lower instances probably more than they want. This is the most sensible/least-likely-to-introduce-crazy-bugs way to patch it at this point in the content cycle, and they can rebalance it at 80-85 in the expansion patch.

Or just drop the value of parry to be equal to dodge, and merge the DR's into one; because avoidance is largely moot until raiding, the haste on parry is largely irrelevant to the stat's value for tanking (and would buff warrior rage generation when overgeared, but hey, it's not like they've grappled with that one for five years running), and you would have to be pants on head stupid to break the game by modifying a few variables in a polynomial function that already exists.  If your design can be broken by a single tier of gear, the equal (at least) of which would have been introduced in the patch where it has to be fixed anyways, it was broken to begin with.

Or maybe they should just kludge a random buff in, which has already broken the PTR by applying zone-wide outside the instance, probably due to miscommunication between world design and scripting people or lack of documentation as to where a certain actor is meant to be placed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on October 31, 2009, 03:21:45 AM
I wonder if they can code the Icecrown Radiance thing to affect DK's Runestrike the way that resilience affects abilities that proc off of crits.

You know, If X ability crits, it does Y,  but if resil on the target prevents the crit from being a crit, the Proc effect of the "attack that would have crit" still occurs.

Maybe DK's will still get to Spam Runestrike because there will be something along the lines of "You would have dodged that attack, except for the Zone wide debuff, so here is your runestrike proc"?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on October 31, 2009, 04:07:48 AM
Nah, they'll just cripple DKs and then wonder why everyone's using druid tanks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on October 31, 2009, 04:33:12 AM
Nah, they'll just cripple DKs and then wonder why everyone's using druid tanks.
This will not 'cripple' DK tanks.  It's a 10% reduction in TPS.  Outside of gimmick encounters like hodir, I'm unaware of any tank having actual issues with single target threat.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 31, 2009, 08:38:06 AM
Just in case you ever wanted more proof that Ghostcrawler is clueless about many things:

Quote
I don't think a world-wide LFG channel would be something you'd really want. It would immediately become the global chat channel for trade, spam and Chuck Norris jokes.

On live it's restricted to people using the LFG tool. The new dungeon tool honestly makes matches so quickly under most conditions that that implementation won't work. We feared people would just use the /trade channel if we didn't make a similar /lfg channel.

No, I really like a world-wide LFG channel. I sit LF groups to Wintergrasp or the Storm Peaks most of the time in case I see someone making something interesting. I don't want to have to sit in some shithole like Dalaran whenever I want a group.

Fucking clownshoes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: slog on October 31, 2009, 12:35:53 PM
Just in case you ever wanted more proof that Ghostcrawler is clueless about many things:

Quote
I don't think a world-wide LFG channel would be something you'd really want. It would immediately become the global chat channel for trade, spam and Chuck Norris jokes.

On live it's restricted to people using the LFG tool. The new dungeon tool honestly makes matches so quickly under most conditions that that implementation won't work. We feared people would just use the /trade channel if we didn't make a similar /lfg channel.

No, I really like a world-wide LFG channel. I sit LF groups to Wintergrasp or the Storm Peaks most of the time in case I see someone making something interesting. I don't want to have to sit in some shithole like Dalaran whenever I want a group.

Fucking clownshoes.

Except he's right and you are not. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Xanthippe on October 31, 2009, 01:06:04 PM
Ghostcrawler is wrong about so many things.  I wish they'd put him on something else, I can't stand the decisions he's made.  I think the game's gone in the wrong direction for the most part since he became lead, and I have little desire left to play.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kail on October 31, 2009, 01:24:52 PM
No, I really like a world-wide LFG channel. I sit LF groups to Wintergrasp or the Storm Peaks most of the time in case I see someone making something interesting. I don't want to have to sit in some shithole like Dalaran whenever I want a group.

I think LFG was global for a while.  It was not pretty.  It was changed when people started migrating to "unofficial" LFG channels since the actual LFG channel was clogged with general babble.  This made it take longer for groups to form, since everyone was spread out between the LFG channel and however many unofficial LFG channels there were.

In general, I wouldn't be averse to some kind of global general chat channel, but putting global chat in a channel with a specific purpose throws the signal/noise ratio out the window.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 31, 2009, 02:13:05 PM
I don't know about you but trade is already a cesspool on my server and that's JUST in cities, I shudder to think of a worldwide channel.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on October 31, 2009, 03:48:55 PM
They need to add a global general chat (for anyone sane to turn off) and a global LFG channel. "But if we add more channels our users will talk in them, and they're idiots!" is a gobsmackingly stupid reason to give for not adding them.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on October 31, 2009, 04:30:39 PM
I don't know about you but trade is already a cesspool on my server and that's JUST in cities, I shudder to think of a worldwide channel.

There is a global LFG channel, which is why his argument is so retarded. He's saying that a global LFG channel would be terrible, yet if you sit in the LFG tool you get a global LFG channel and it works pretty well on my server at least. Forcing people to sit in a shithole like Dalaran is just backwards. Trade is already used as a city-based LFG channel and it blows; whereas the global channel linked to the LFG tool is fairly sane, and allows me to play alts/herb/quest and keep my eyes open for interesting stuff. What GC wants to to is nix the channel that actually works and add a second version of the shitty channel.

They need to add a global general chat (for anyone sane to turn off) and a global LFG channel. "But if we add more channels our users will talk in them, and they're idiots!" is a gobsmackingly stupid reason to give for not adding them.

This too; nobody is forced to join any channels.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 01, 2009, 12:01:39 AM
Nah, they'll just cripple DKs and then wonder why everyone's using druid tanks.
This will not 'cripple' DK tanks.  It's a 10% reduction in TPS.  Outside of gimmick encounters like hodir, I'm unaware of any tank having actual issues with single target threat.

Why do you hate hyperbole!

Also, I like Ghostcrawler. Sometimes I think he is wrong, but I feel that way about everyone on earth at some time or another. And given I enjoy WotLK more than original and TBC, I hope he sticks around.  :heart:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 01, 2009, 12:47:24 AM
This too; nobody is forced to join any channels.

I mean shit, they allow their forums to exist. They must love stupidity. Some guy is spamming creationist links all over the place while the CMs are in bed, people are spamming him back with fucking Time Cube shit, and the whole thing has gone even more to hell than usual.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 01, 2009, 01:20:10 AM
Every time I think the WoW forums are retarded, I just browse YouTube comments.


Relative to that, they are the pinnacle of civilized debate.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Numtini on November 01, 2009, 08:15:58 AM
I view the loss of the global LFG channel as a huge pain. I'm between guilds and I pick up so many raids and groups answering LFG's for my main while I'm on an alt. Or vice versa. I do not want to sit on my main in a city farting around hoping something comes together.

Any issues of asshatery in the channel can be solved by simply throttling to one use per minute, which should probably be done for both trade and LFG regardless of anything else.

Seriously, what is Bliz's obsession with screwed up LFG systems.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 01, 2009, 09:46:56 AM
Long ago, when I still actually played my paladin, I used to loooooove when four or five Horde would chase me across AV. I liked to see how far I could get before they managed to kill me (if I got far enough, they would get killed themselves by the Alliance zerg). It was the main time I'd use LoH, I could feel their poutrage through the internets whenever I fired that off. <3

Kinda random to respond to this much later, but my favorite neener-neener move as a paladin is definitely bubble dancing. Did that AV tower finally burn just as half a dozen Horde were running up the stairs to reclaim it? You know you're gonna die, pop the bubble and give them 12 seconds of dancing first! Are you at 1580/1600 resources in AB? Jump into the middle of half a dozen Horde, pop the bubble, and dance as the game ends!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: slog on November 01, 2009, 07:46:35 PM
Long ago, when I still actually played my paladin, I used to loooooove when four or five Horde would chase me across AV. I liked to see how far I could get before they managed to kill me (if I got far enough, they would get killed themselves by the Alliance zerg). It was the main time I'd use LoH, I could feel their poutrage through the internets whenever I fired that off. <3

Kinda random to respond to this much later, but my favorite neener-neener move as a paladin is definitely bubble dancing. Did that AV tower finally burn just as half a dozen Horde were running up the stairs to reclaim it? You know you're gonna die, pop the bubble and give them 12 seconds of dancing first! Are you at 1580/1600 resources in AB? Jump into the middle of half a dozen Horde, pop the bubble, and dance as the game ends!

I used to love to dispell those paly bubbles.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Xanthippe on November 02, 2009, 08:50:47 AM
They need to add a global general chat (for anyone sane to turn off) and a global LFG channel. "But if we add more channels our users will talk in them, and they're idiots!" is a gobsmackingly stupid reason to give for not adding them.

Exactly.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 02, 2009, 11:19:40 AM
Ghostcrawler is wrong about so many things.  I wish they'd put him on something else, I can't stand the decisions he's made.  I think the game's gone in the wrong direction for the most part since he became lead, and I have little desire left to play.

I think you're probably ascribing a lot of decisions to him that were made by the whole team, including Tom Chilton, who is still the lead game designer. GC is the lead systems designer, not the guy in charge of everything ever.

I also think people in general tend to seriously overestimate the amount of 'bad' decisions they've made, but that's how every game ever has been I guess.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Xanthippe on November 02, 2009, 01:48:55 PM
Ghostcrawler is wrong about so many things.  I wish they'd put him on something else, I can't stand the decisions he's made.  I think the game's gone in the wrong direction for the most part since he became lead, and I have little desire left to play.

I think you're probably ascribing a lot of decisions to him that were made by the whole team, including Tom Chilton, who is still the lead game designer. GC is the lead systems designer, not the guy in charge of everything ever.

I also think people in general tend to seriously overestimate the amount of 'bad' decisions they've made, but that's how every game ever has been I guess.

You don't play a hunter, do you?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 02, 2009, 02:09:15 PM
What's your opinion on what Blizzard are doing with Hunters in Cataclysm?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 02, 2009, 02:20:14 PM
Ghostcrawler is wrong about so many things.  I wish they'd put him on something else, I can't stand the decisions he's made.  I think the game's gone in the wrong direction for the most part since he became lead, and I have little desire left to play.

I think you're probably ascribing a lot of decisions to him that were made by the whole team, including Tom Chilton, who is still the lead game designer. GC is the lead systems designer, not the guy in charge of everything ever.

I also think people in general tend to seriously overestimate the amount of 'bad' decisions they've made, but that's how every game ever has been I guess.

You don't play a hunter, do you?

I do have a hunter, though he's only 74 or so; he's overpowered by a longshot for leveling content, but I haven't raided with him or done much more than random battleground stuff on the pvp side. Our hunters seem to do just fine, though, our top dps is often a hunter except when they have a dps-lowering assignment in a fight. Is there an actual specific complaint you have?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 02, 2009, 02:45:43 PM
I have a hunter. She doesn't get to be my main because we have a thousand DPSers, plus I enjoy tanking (I have a DK for that, so if the hunter complaint is waaah nerfs, I have a lot of experience with those anyway). But I feel I know the class quite well, and when I do get to play her because all the DPSers came down with swine flu or something, she's a) fun and b) near the top in DPS. She's the only character I've really PvPed with in this expansion, too, and I don't find that particularly lacking either.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 02, 2009, 03:18:43 PM
The hunter complaints come from 4 years of playing the yo-yo as one.  The only reason they're doing so well these days is that there's more DKs to cry about than hunters, so they've avoided the down swing that's been a part of the cycle since the beginning.

PVE dps has always been solid.  They've just fucked with mechanics so much over the years it's gotten tiresome for many.  PVP is somewhat reasonable now, but only in BGs which, according to the attitude of the PVP designers "Don't Count"  as real pvp.

Really, it's just GC that most folks have a problem with.  He's consistently shown himself to be either out of touch or in over his head.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 02, 2009, 03:31:42 PM
GC's problem is that he opens his mouth too much. He'd be a better dev if he just kept himself off the forums.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 02, 2009, 03:50:40 PM
Really, it's just GC that most folks have a problem with.  He's consistently shown himself to be either out of touch or in over his head.

See, I just don't buy this. Consistently? Sure he (they?) get things wrong occasionally, but its kind of nonsensical to suggest that the game is falling apart mechanically, which would be the real consequence if he actually was either out of touch or in over his head.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on November 02, 2009, 04:15:35 PM
I though he was a little bit shit-for-brains because he suggested haste is a good warrior stat.  But really, the game as a whole is in a far better place than it's ever been.  No particular class has any reason to complain; some specs are underpowered, but most classes have at least one viable DPS spec, and where available a viable tank/heal spec.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 02, 2009, 04:21:58 PM
I thought they allowed GC to be the 'mouthpiece,' so to speak, in order to have an official voice from somebody who's actually on the team, and not just some PR monkey.  That's just an impression I may have gotten from somewhere legit, or not.  Can't remember.  I know he's put his foot in his mouth sometimes, and has irked some with his off-the-cuff style.  But I think a lot of the ire ascribed to him is ill-formed.  He's just a guy answering questions as honestly as he can in an impossible environment, as near as I can tell.  Of course he's going to make mistakes here and there.  Essentially, I think he should be commended for manning up and taking it on the chin sometimes, and not pussing out by using a PR intermediary.  And of course people are going to put more on him than he deserves.  Just ask Cat, or that other guy who went crazy.

The forums exist because it gives people a place to voice their frustration that is way cheaper to maintain than the extra CSR that would be required if the forums weren't there.  They probably have about 50,000 concurrent users on just an average day on those forums.  That's a lot of smoke to blow for even the savviest phone jockey.  This way, when shit hits the fan, one guy can ask/answer an the disaster is averted.  The rest of the time it's a cesspool to be avoided at all costs.  But it's existence being an affront to civilized humanity is a small price for them to pay.  Though I don't know if you can say the same about the poor souls who get paid to live on them.  I think I'd probably last about ten minutes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 02, 2009, 04:29:15 PM
Seriously, the WoW Forums for their traffic and demographics, are really not all that bad.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 02, 2009, 04:37:51 PM
The hunter complaints come from 4 years of playing the yo-yo as one.  The only reason they're doing so well these days is that there's more DKs to cry about than hunters, so they've avoided the down swing that's been a part of the cycle since the beginning.

PVE dps has always been solid.  They've just fucked with mechanics so much over the years it's gotten tiresome for many.  PVP is somewhat reasonable now, but only in BGs which, according to the attitude of the PVP designers "Don't Count"  as real pvp.

Really, it's just GC that most folks have a problem with.  He's consistently shown himself to be either out of touch or in over his head.

I have had my hunter since day one, I am aware of the various hunter changes through the life of the game. I still think most hunters are giant whiners about the whole thing. Hunters are hardly the only class that is extremely different from their original form, and hardly the only class to go from overpowered to a little sucky.

Constant balance and change is part of MMOs, and the handwringing about how hunters have been chaaaaanged and it's tiring and means no one knows what they're doing is really ... weird.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on November 02, 2009, 06:47:10 PM
Man, but compare them to warriors!  Warriors were incredibly internally consistent at lauch, we had Thunderclap in all appropriate stances; stat mechanics were incredibly simple, as opposed to needing, oh, lets say spell hit, for random abilities that were absolutely critical for proper function; our gear was always well itemized, without the profusion of useless stats on tier gear like you saw with hunters; and of course, there were the purposefully obtuse hunter mechanics, like having to feign death in order to trap, as opposed to warriors, who could perform any function vital to their primary role without having to take a rage penalty or make a macro.



Ingmar, the other option to equalize parry/dodge would be to increase the cost per rating of dodge, and lower the diminishing returns threshold.  Counterbalance that with a buff.  Maybe de-haste on the origin of the dodged attack (-40% haste for one attack).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 02, 2009, 06:51:55 PM
How about comparing them to paladins or druids instead.  :heart:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 03, 2009, 05:48:35 AM
Man, but compare them to warriors!  Warriors were incredibly internally consistent at lauch, we had Thunderclap in all appropriate stances; stat mechanics were incredibly simple, as opposed to needing, oh, lets say spell hit, for random abilities that were absolutely critical for proper function; our gear was always well itemized, without the profusion of useless stats on tier gear like you saw with hunters; and of course, there were the purposefully obtuse hunter mechanics, like having to feign death in order to trap, as opposed to warriors, who could perform any function vital to their primary role without having to take a rage penalty or make a macro.

I used to tank with Spell Power armor.  Let alone the fact that hit and spell hit used to be different.  Though I admit, juggling defense, intellect, and spell power was kind of fun.  As Sjofn said, Warriors started off as the strong class of Vanilla WoW.  They were the only viable tank.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: slog on November 03, 2009, 06:17:14 AM
MMORPG players that complain that the Devs suck on a game that makes millions and millions of dollars in profit every month?

I'm shocked.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on November 03, 2009, 08:20:31 AM
I used to tank with Spell Power armor.  Let alone the fact that hit and spell hit used to be different.  Though I admit, juggling defense, intellect, and spell power was kind of fun.  As Sjofn said, Warriors started off as the strong class of Vanilla WoW.  They were the only viable tank.

The point, you missed it.

If you need a little refresher, refer back to countless posts about how hunter were inconsistent mechanically or had no clear purpose.  Compare the provided evidence of that to any other class in the game.  Profit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 03, 2009, 10:27:06 AM
I gave two examples of classes I think could make the same argument. I suspect shamans could too, but I didn't play them much in vanilla because I was primarily playing Alliance.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 03, 2009, 10:32:13 AM
Man, but compare them to warriors!  Warriors were incredibly internally consistent at lauch, we had Thunderclap in all appropriate stances; stat mechanics were incredibly simple, as opposed to needing, oh, lets say spell hit, for random abilities that were absolutely critical for proper function; our gear was always well itemized, without the profusion of useless stats on tier gear like you saw with hunters; and of course, there were the purposefully obtuse hunter mechanics, like having to feign death in order to trap, as opposed to warriors, who could perform any function vital to their primary role without having to take a rage penalty or make a macro.



Ingmar, the other option to equalize parry/dodge would be to increase the cost per rating of dodge, and lower the diminishing returns threshold.  Counterbalance that with a buff.  Maybe de-haste on the origin of the dodged attack (-40% haste for one attack).

Responding to the first bit. As someone who has played a warrior since release, I see that post should really be green, but for the people who think you're serious:

- We *still* use spell hit for taunt. Thunderclap also used spell hit at release.
- Our gear wasn't anything like well-itemized at release. Our dungeon set was covered in spirit. Warrior tier 1 for example was itemized well enough if you were a tank, but horribly if you were dps specced. Yes, we dropped spirit in the raid gear while hunters still had to carry a little, but they weren't the only ones. Ask the rogues how much they liked the strength on their T1, or shamans and paladins how much they liked the spirit. Or ask ANY of the classes with multiple roles how they liked having gear that was only itemized for one. From that perspective, hunters were much better off than most classes, since at least all of them could use the gear they were given to fulfill their role.
- Mechanically speaking of course, we had to stance dance for several important abilities (berserker rage, thunderclap, mocking blow if a taunt missed, etc.) meaning rage would go out the window, etc.

Basically, every class has gone through major revisions. Some less than hunters (rogues would be an example) some far more (hi2u paladins and druids). That's life in an MMO.

-------------------------

Regarding the second bit, you're still talking about a change that would have a ripple effect throughout the levels and might change balance for the worse at lower gear points than Icecrown. They chose the less dangerous bandaid fix instead, which I can't really blame them for. They're going to have to do a major rebalance of defensive stats when +def goes away in the expansion anyway, why do that work twice if you don't really need to?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 03, 2009, 11:09:53 AM
While were going off on the tangent, Warriors have easily been the most consistently powerful class across the entire game for the length of the entire game.

It's only in WotLK that they haven't been the clear cut BEST at anything they do, merely in the top 3.  :oh_i_see:



Yet they can still bitch like they are the worst class ever created. I'm having a hard time thinking of a class community to oblivious to their own power level in relation to everyone else in the game.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on November 03, 2009, 11:27:01 AM
I'm having a hard time thinking of a class community to oblivious to their own power level in relation to everyone else in the game.

Rogues, Warlocks, Druids, and Paladins?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 03, 2009, 11:27:33 AM
I think your experiences are colored by playing also-ran tank classes.  :oh_i_see:

Rogues are even worse about that anyway.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 03, 2009, 11:33:08 AM
I used to tank with Spell Power armor.  Let alone the fact that hit and spell hit used to be different.  Though I admit, juggling defense, intellect, and spell power was kind of fun.  As Sjofn said, Warriors started off as the strong class of Vanilla WoW.  They were the only viable tank.

The point, you missed it.

If you need a little refresher, refer back to countless posts about how hunter were inconsistent mechanically or had no clear purpose.  Compare the provided evidence of that to any other class in the game.  Profit.

You know what I loved, running out of mana while tanking, becuase BoSanc was a twinkle in Blizzard's eye.  Or getting Strength on tanking armor, because it was wonderfully useful to me.  Or the fact that we didn't have a taunt until BC, and the taunt they did give us was Righteous Defense, still one of the most ass-backward taunts in the game.  Righteous Defense being based on spell hit until 2.3.  Or refreshing seals after judgement.  That was cool.  I could keep going, but the point is this:

Protection is a completely different tree and playstyle from vanilla WoW.  Hell, it's completely different from BC.  Our gear was horribly itemized at times.

And that's not even going into LolRet in BC.

Quote
Rogues, Warlocks, Druids, and Paladins?

Prot is awesome right now, and I fear only the harsh harsh nerf bat swinging in our direction.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 03, 2009, 11:55:45 AM
Yet they can still bitch like they are the worst class ever created. I'm having a hard time thinking of a class community to oblivious to their own power level in relation to everyone else in the game.

DKs, imo.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 03, 2009, 12:56:36 PM
DK's are another one, yea. They were especially bad since by definition, every DK is a re-roll and should know better.


Rogues know full well how powerful they are, they just think that's the way it should be, since in their minds, it's the trade-off for not bringing any real raid buffs or whatever. "So what if I can kill anyone, anywhere without them being able to fight back in any meaningful manner at all? I can't heal can I?!?! GAWD!"


Druids and Paladins spent the greater part of the first few years of the game as at best, comic relief. They knew exactly where they were and are, it's why creates such back lash now when ever there is even a hint of a nerf (it's even prevented nerfs, especially in regards to tank balance, simply because Blizzard is afraid of undoing what little progress they've made in tank diversity). They also suffer from the fact their classes split in 14 different ways, so at any given time, there is probably a part of the class that does, in fact, totally suck.


Warlocks are just emo, like hunters. It must be something to do with being a pet class   :grin:

Mages are emo about Warlocks, or any hybrid casting DPS'er that can actually DPS. Mostly Warlocks though.


Priests get split into two categories. ShadowPriests, that are sad that they don't have guaranteed raid spots anymore and Healing Priests, that are OFFENDED that any class but priests actually have the ability to cast heals!!! I still remember all the threads about Healing Touch and how it was going to sideline all priest forever back in vanilla. Back when druids were taken to raids solely to innervate the fucking priests ><


Shamans are a lot like paladins and druids in that they get split half a dozen different ways, but the things they are whiny about are Totems (much much less these days thanks to the changes) and their raid spots. If you go far back enough, you have some lamenting about the vanilla windfury days where they could randomly one-shot people.


Warriors though, they've spent the entire game being dominate at everything they could ever want to do with the class. DK's have had a longer 'down' period then Warriors at this point. Warriors have literally had entire aspects of the game shaped around them. Class design 'rules' didn't apply to them. Shared gear would default towards them.

But good lord, Druids have 3% higher effective health, how ever will we fucking survive!



I'm totally not bitter, not at all.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on November 03, 2009, 01:44:08 PM
Psf.  Back in the day (tm), people rolled shadow priest to PVP because shadow priests melt face.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 03, 2009, 02:09:38 PM
Oddly enough, the warrior entitlement complex seems to have carried over from EQ where they were even more whiny despite genuinely and unargueable being the tank class. I blame Furor, mainly out of spite.

(Did I mention I had a SK in EQ?  :grin: )


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 03, 2009, 02:18:29 PM
I remain slightly baffled when people complain about priests being overpowered. Priests are sometimes good, generally average in my experience.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 03, 2009, 02:34:08 PM
I'm totally not bitter, not at all.  :oh_i_see:
Then to top it off you see a fledgling Balance Druid's spec and must weep for humanity...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 03, 2009, 03:29:00 PM
Quote from: Latest patch notes
All level 71-80 Battlegrounds will now award victors 25 Arena points in addition to Honor.

(http://msp5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/dannydude182/smiley-300x300.png)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on November 03, 2009, 03:33:24 PM
Quote from: Latest patch notes
All level 71-80 Battlegrounds will now award victors 25 Arena points in addition to Honor.
This doesn't mean as much as you probably think it does.  Here's the complete list of things you can buy with arena points without an arena rating:

-Commendations of Bravery, 2k honor for 100 points
-Cheaper versions of the honor set gear you can already buy (e.g. the deadly chest costs 49.6k honor OR 12k honor and 350 arena points)

and that's it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 03, 2009, 03:35:00 PM
Still nicer than having to gind up a shitload of Honor for gear as a fresh 80.  I got two pieces on my Horde Pally and said "fuck this."


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on November 03, 2009, 03:54:48 PM
As an addendum, the guy behind MMO-champ is getting so lazy he can't even copy/paste from the patch notes correctly.
Quote
All level 71-80 Battleground daily quests will now award 25 Arena points in addition to their current rewards.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?sid=1&topicId=20126978820


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 03, 2009, 04:00:48 PM
Never mind, it's 25 arena points for completing that bullshit daily BG quest. Wow, why even bother?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 03, 2009, 05:20:01 PM
I'm totally not bitter, not at all.  :oh_i_see:
Then to top it off you see a fledgling Balance Druid's spec and must weep for humanity...


You didn't even spec Force of Nature!  :sad_panda:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on November 03, 2009, 05:38:01 PM
They're going to have to do a major rebalance of defensive stats when +def goes away in the expansion anyway, why do that work twice if you don't really need to?

The defense change is coming in the pre-patch.  All "but crazy imbalance at other levels ranges" and "need to work on it twice" arguments are moot, because that's exactly what they are doing.  In fact, I'd suspect they are going to end up doing an overhaul of all defense gear 1-60 twice, due to Cataclysm old world changes.

EDIT: Strikethrough for accuracy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 03, 2009, 07:42:17 PM
You didn't even spec Force of Nature!  :sad_panda:
No, no!  I had Force of Nature!  It was Insect Swarm and few other, "critical", things I was missing.

I respeced yesterday.  You'll be happier I think, as long as you don't look at my equipment...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 03, 2009, 07:58:10 PM
That's right, you didn't have Insect Swarm!

BEEEEEEs


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Xanthippe on November 03, 2009, 08:38:53 PM
What's your opinion on what Blizzard are doing with Hunters in Cataclysm?

I don't have an opinion, because I don't know what Blizzard is doing with hunters.  I haven't known what Blizzard intends for hunters since Outlands.

I'm just cranky because I loved the hunter class from vanilla WoW and loved it more in Outlands, but am not enjoying it much now.  Being told stuff like "pet classes shouldn't be very powerful because they're so easy" and then seeing the joke warlocks have become pisses me off.  (Yes, I have a warlock, and have since vanilla WoW).

I can faceroll on my DK or my warlock and still do better than on my hunter who struggles. 

It's frustrating to me because it's so fucking arbitrary.

But you all are right, this is a mmorpg and I should be used to it by now.  I just wish I knew what hunters are supposed to be, and I wish GC would stop coating it in the whole "easy to play class should do less damage" when that is the biggest load of horseshit to come out of the south end of a northbound Trigger.  (I also have a pally.)

Mostly I'm just pissy because hormonally I am back in junior high again. Getting old sucks.  I should start a guild called Hot Flashes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on November 03, 2009, 09:17:12 PM
 :headscratch: :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 03, 2009, 09:35:21 PM
I can faceroll on my DK or my warlock and still do better than on my hunter who struggles.
This just seems odd.  In my old raiding guild, the only characters that could out-DPS my mage were a hunter and a rogue.  And it was close with those 2.  This hunter was regularly pulling down 5500-6000 DPS on most boss fights and I was hitting in the 5000-5200 mark.  There are a huge number of bad hunters though, as I ran with one tonight who did 1100DPS in 219-226 gear and didn't think that was low.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 04, 2009, 01:18:26 AM
Oh god damn it. So I was looking at transcripts of voice files for 3.3 and...



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 04, 2009, 02:27:37 AM
LORELOL


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 04, 2009, 02:49:39 AM
I can faceroll on my DK or my warlock and still do better than on my hunter who struggles.
This just seems odd.  In my old raiding guild, the only characters that could out-DPS my mage were a hunter and a rogue.  And it was close with those 2.  This hunter was regularly pulling down 5500-6000 DPS on most boss fights and I was hitting in the 5000-5200 mark.  There are a huge number of bad hunters though, as I ran with one tonight who did 1100DPS in 219-226 gear and didn't think that was low.

Xanthippe is a PVP lover and last I knew plays only on PVP servers.  Take most of what she says and apply it to that, not raiding.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 04, 2009, 05:27:35 AM
Oh god damn it. So I was looking at transcripts of voice files for 3.3 and...

Counterpoint: Good news, everyone! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PStC-LNZ2s)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 04, 2009, 06:37:50 AM
Xanthippe is a PVP lover and last I knew plays only on PVP servers.  Take most of what she says and apply it to that, not raiding.
Which is a completely different situation.  Hunters haven't ever really been that dominant in PvP that I can remember.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on November 04, 2009, 08:25:08 AM
Any success that I've had on my hunter in pvp was due to the opponent playing badly.  If I can kite them around the map before having 10 rogues jump me, I can beat most classes.  The refresh on disengage often isn't fast enough to keep my distance though, particularly against DK's that will just pull me to their group and lol while they gang bang me. 

Hunters do well when they have group support in pvp so that you can focus all of your energy on dps.  When forced to use utility, you lose so much dps that your ability to drop targets goes away fast. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morfiend on November 04, 2009, 09:57:30 AM
Xanthippe is a PVP lover and last I knew plays only on PVP servers.  Take most of what she says and apply it to that, not raiding.
Which is a completely different situation.  Hunters haven't ever really been that dominant in PvP that I can remember.

Maybe not in Arena due to the old dead zone and the small size of arenas, but in BGs and open world there was a time when they where just fucking horribly OPed. I think it was some time in BC.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 04, 2009, 10:35:15 AM
Being told stuff like "pet classes shouldn't be very powerful because they're so easy"

But that isn't what he said? The thing you're thinking of (assuming I'm thinking of the right quote) was explaining why BM spec does a little less damage than survival/marksmanship within the hunter class. It wasn't about cross-class comparison at all.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 04, 2009, 11:32:03 AM
Oh god damn it. So I was looking at transcripts of voice files for 3.3 and...


Thinking about this some,


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 04, 2009, 11:50:50 AM
Thinking about this some,

That makes way too much sense.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on November 04, 2009, 11:54:23 AM
Maybe not in Arena due to the old dead zone and the small size of arenas, but in BGs and open world there was a time when they where just fucking horribly OPed. I think it was some time in BC.
Hunters were overpowered in arenas for a few months in early Wrath.  They were nerfed pretty quick.  Hunters usually make a decent showing at the arena tournaments.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 04, 2009, 11:55:26 AM
It's going to be burny lava Bolvar.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 04, 2009, 11:55:59 AM
Survival hunters have some popularity in 3v3 I think, they're at least in that prot warrior/resto druid/hunter comp which apparently does pretty well.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Montague on November 04, 2009, 12:05:51 PM
Thinking about this some,

That makes way too much sense.


Disc One Final Dungeon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiscOneFinalDungeon)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 04, 2009, 12:18:54 PM


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 04, 2009, 01:53:20 PM
Anyone remember the ghouls event before lich king came out? Imagine that, times 100.  That's what I'd imagine a fully unchecked scourge would be like, it does sort of make sense, not in that arthas is keeping the scourge from being evil but he's making them an army, not a rampant zombie plague.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 04, 2009, 01:57:52 PM
Then again, his willingness to widely distribute zombie plague would seems to indicate that he's not really trying to prevent a massive zombie plague.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on November 04, 2009, 02:06:04 PM
Then again, his willingness to widely distribute zombie plague would seems to indicate that he's not really trying to prevent a massive zombie plague.

Lol, I'm not really into the lore byt that sentence cracked me up.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 04, 2009, 02:07:49 PM
Thinking about this some,

That makes way too much sense.


A girl can dream, can't she?  :cry2:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 04, 2009, 03:38:44 PM
All hail Lich Queen Jaina!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 04, 2009, 03:44:43 PM
Staghelm should step up.  Maybe fight Wrynn to the death for the honor.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on November 04, 2009, 03:56:13 PM
I'm going to kill the fucking lot of you.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 04, 2009, 04:43:40 PM
Muahaha.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 04, 2009, 05:55:13 PM
Then again, his willingness to widely distribute zombie plague would seems to indicate that he's not really trying to prevent a massive zombie plague.

I agree with you, but this is wow lolore. There are zombie plagues and then there are zombie PLAGUES. My example of the wotlk event is what a real cross-species zombie outbreak would be like, something im assuming is what this whole 'arthas keeping it in check' is referring to. Thus far all outbreaks of undeadness have been fairly localized and the undead are controlled and semi-sentient. 

I just think it's stupid that arthas is still in there anywhere.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 04, 2009, 11:04:31 PM
This is shaping up to be bad even for WoW lolore. I mean that Arthas book just came out a couple months ago stating that he was in charge and had basically made Ner'zhul his bitch. Now he's a "fading presence in the Lich King's mind" as they put it. They make a big deal out of his cutting out his own heart and being totally evil, but he was holding the Scourge back all along. I mean... what? Even for Blizzard, WHAT?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on November 04, 2009, 11:18:26 PM
All hail Lich Queen Jaina!
Ohh, you have NO idea :P

Supposedly, in a "what if" sequence during one of the WoW comics, Jaina is shown a vision of what would have happened if she had stayed with Arthas through the events of Stratholme, and followed him to northrend.

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=570&stc=1&d=1252545751


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 05, 2009, 12:06:25 AM
I kinda like the idea that "there must always be a Lich King" in theory. Like he's become this sort of eternal force that can never really be destroyed but only thwarted, bigger than Ner'zhul or Arthas or whoever, this sort of god of undeath that gobbles up the soul of whatever mortal shell it's inhabiting.

But this "brainless zombies are way more dangerous than ones directed by an evil intelligence" crap is for the birds.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 05, 2009, 06:40:07 AM
I kinda like the idea that "there must always be a Lich King" in theory. Like he's become this sort of eternal force that can never really be destroyed but only thwarted, bigger than Ner'zhul or Arthas or whoever, this sort of god of undeath that gobbles up the soul of whatever mortal shell it's inhabiting.

But this "brainless zombies are way more dangerous than ones directed by an evil intelligence" crap is for the birds.


Seriously, Azeroth has been dealing with mindless zombies for centuries, they aren't any more of a big deal then those man sized spiders or murlocs. The whole acting in a coordinated and intelligent manner is what makes the scourge, scourgey!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 05, 2009, 10:01:50 AM
Oh god damn it. So I was looking at transcripts of voice files for 3.3 and...


I had a much longer post, but essentially, if any part of Arthas is holding the Scourge back, it's definitely lollore again.  They played up the whole Lich King is luring us to corrupt us angle, and in that light, I can deal with all the times we've stopped him in that he doesn't want us dead (yet) he wants rather to convert us to his army, and once he's got enough of us, he can unleash the full might of the Scourge.  I can live with that more than "lolArthas".


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on November 05, 2009, 10:06:08 AM
Arthas isn't holding back the scourge, anagram kid is!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 05, 2009, 10:39:36 AM
Incidentally, while I don't get the impression that they're going with Sjofn's "fake Uther tricked you to make sure there would be a Lich King" rationalization, here's betting they retcon their way into it by the time it has a chance to really matter a couple expansions from now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 05, 2009, 10:51:31 AM
Based on the lore so far, I never really bought the notion that the players could actually kill the Lich King.  You'd need to nuke Frostmoure, the armor, and Ice Crown Citadel from orbit to be sure, and then there's no way of knowing if you actually wiped out his soul or if you just destroyed his binding.  When we defeat the Lich King, it's more like a Sauron/Tal Rasha thing - he's still around, but too weak to control the Scourge, so someone has to suck it up put on the helment, and fight for control of the Scourge.  Sometimes I wish Saergas would show up and pwn us all.  Oh wait, he's somewhere out there...

As I said in the light that he's not out right attacking us until some more have joined the Dark Side, this lore does work to an extent.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 05, 2009, 11:06:38 AM
This is shaping up to be bad even for WoW lolore. I mean that Arthas book just came out a couple months ago stating that he was in charge and had basically made Ner'zhul his bitch. Now he's a "fading presence in the Lich King's mind" as they put it. They make a big deal out of his cutting out his own heart and being totally evil, but he was holding the Scourge back all along. I mean... what? Even for Blizzard, WHAT?
If you think that bit of lore is bad, you should probably skip the part about King Rockgroin Hardslab and Saurfang Sr.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 05, 2009, 12:59:00 PM
What the whole "Achilles letting Priam have Hector's body" thing? The only really bad part there was Jaina.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 05, 2009, 01:11:52 PM
Agreeing with wua again here. The worst part about king roidrage was that he was from any interactions with him thus far, one dimensional.  Giving him a little more depth by adding a sort of warriors code to him is only a good thing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 05, 2009, 01:34:44 PM
Was more of a Father to Father thing, but that's just nitpickin.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on November 05, 2009, 01:58:07 PM
Well, except for the whole:

"I wasn't at the Wrath gate, but soldiers who were tell me the horde bombed the alliance!  DEATH TO THE HORDE, ASSAULT ON UNDERCITY!" Roid Rage

then going over to:

"I wasn't at the Wrath Gate, But soldiers who were tell me your son fought with honor!  PEACE AND LOVE! HERE GO GET HIS BODY!"

seem to contradict one and other pretty heavily.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 05, 2009, 02:22:47 PM
Not really. The story could've been told saying Weefang fought with honor, but then OMG FORSAKEN ATTACK, which to King Chin meant the Horde attacked. So he could hold these two thoughts in his head:

"Saurfang Jr. was an alright dude."

"The Forsaken, who are part of the Horde, fucked us at Wrathgate, and I'm gonna hold that entire faction responsible."


Honestly, I liked that little scene. Anything to give King Chin some goddamn depth is OK by me.


EDIT: Also, that scene is from when the Alliance wins the airship race or whatever, right? He knows he won, he doesn't need to be an asshole to Saurfang. I assume he knows losing is not something orcs like.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: LK on November 05, 2009, 02:34:05 PM
All hail Lich Queen Jaina!
Ohh, you have NO idea :P

Supposedly, in a "what if" sequence during one of the WoW comics, Jaina is shown a vision of what would have happened if she had stayed with Arthas through the events of Stratholme, and followed him to northrend.

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=570&stc=1&d=1252545751

That's a REALLY stupid What If, but kinda cool. It'd be nice to have a villian that was female.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 05, 2009, 03:53:29 PM
Nonsense! Women can't be male human paladins.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 05, 2009, 05:17:45 PM
I hate to be That Guy (by which I mean I love it) but Varian was always perfectly aware that a rebel faction fired on the Wrathgate and took over Undercity. There's even a moment in the Alliance version of the quest where the group stumbles over some orcish corpses in Undercity and notes that the Horde is also there fighting said rebels.

He just got one good look at Undercity, went "Oh my god look at this place, how much longer are we gonna give people like this free reign?" and jumped to the (completely correct) conclusion that the Forsaken are out to get them anyway.

"Bla bla WUA you're a Varian fanboy and bla bla!"

Fuck you, go read the quest dialogue. Immediately after the Wrathgate the worst he wanted to do was snatch the ruins of Lordaeron away specifically because the Horde had already lost them to a third party. It wasn't until he got in there and saw that it was a reeking zombie hell that his ire shifted to the Forsaken and the Horde as a whole.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 05, 2009, 05:21:52 PM
The majority of the Alliance have less claim to Azeroth than the Horde does, though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 05, 2009, 06:38:13 PM
You're absolutely right. The Forsaken have every right to Lordaeron. After all, for the most part they ARE the people of Lordaeron. Just stinkier and with more bones showing lately. Of course they still deserve to have their ass kicked. After all, they threw the poor innocent orcs into internment camps after the Second War and were totally rotten to the Blood Elves.

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on November 05, 2009, 06:53:55 PM
That needed Admiral Ackbar, because I think WUA just won the first online lore argument ever in the history of man.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 05, 2009, 08:50:00 PM
You're absolutely right. The Forsaken have every right to Lordaeron. After all, for the most part they ARE the people of Lordaeron. Just stinkier and with more bones showing lately. Of course they still deserve to have their ass kicked. After all, they threw the poor innocent orcs into internment camps after the Second War and were totally rotten to the Blood Elves.

 :why_so_serious:

 :Love_Letters: :Love_Letters: :Love_Letters:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 06, 2009, 03:41:50 AM
Quote
Dungeons & Raids

    * Players no longer need to kill the final bosses in all four wings of this dungeon in order to teleport to Sapphiron. Teleportation orbs have been added to allow players access back and forth from Sapphiron's lair.

About time.

Quote
Twenty-Five Tabards and all the other tabard achievements now require you to equip the tabards instead of just acquiring them.

Huh?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 06, 2009, 03:44:14 AM
edit: doublepost.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on November 06, 2009, 04:32:42 AM
Quote
Twenty-Five Tabards and all the other tabard achievements now require you to equip the tabards instead of just acquiring them.

Huh?
Only thing i can think of is that maybe they are planning on adding some BoE tabards to the game, and forcing you to equip and wear the tabard at least once to get credit for the achieve is the only way they could think of to prevent people just handing them around for free points (sort of the same way you could buy 1 of those Harris Pilton bags during BC and pass it around to get the achieve on multiple people)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 06, 2009, 04:49:32 AM
Makes sense I guess.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 06, 2009, 05:25:23 AM
You're absolutely right. The Forsaken have every right to Lordaeron. After all, for the most part they ARE the people of Lordaeron. Just stinkier and with more bones showing lately. Of course they still deserve to have their ass kicked. After all, they threw the poor innocent orcs into internment camps after the Second War and were totally rotten to the Blood Elves.

 :why_so_serious:
Nah, I was just pointing out that the Alliance has only one race that's a genuine "native to Azeroth" species, as opposed to the Horde's three, four, come Cataclysm.
Alliance:
Humans: Twice-cursed rogue automata, tainted by Old Gods. Not part of Titans' plans, therefore invasive species.
Dwarves: Once-cursed rogue automata, tainted by Old Gods. Not part of Titans' plans, therefore invasive species.
Gnomes: Once-cursed rogue automata, tainted by Old Gods. Not part of Titans' plans, therefore invasive species.
Night Elves: Mutant trolls, however mutation was caused by Titan-empowered Well of Eternity. Native.
Draenei: Extradimensional invaders (twice over - Draenor wasn't their home either).
Worgen: Thrice-cursed rogue automata, tainted by Old Gods and wherever the fuck the Worgen curse originated. Not part of Titan's plans, therefore invasive species.

Horde
Orcs: Extradimensional invaders.
Trolls: Native species.
Tauren: Native species.
Goblins: Native species
Blood elves: Mutant trolls, however mutation was caused by Titan-empowered Well of Eternity and further mutation from Sunwell...which is a derivative of the Well of Eternity. Therefore native.
Forsaken: Thrice-cursed rogue automata, tainted by Old Gods and the Scourge Plague. Not part of Titans plans, therefore invasive species. However, they have just as much claim to Lordaeron as the worgen do to Gilneas but the Alliance only recognised the Gilnean worgens because King Wrynn is clearly a covert furry. :grin:

Conclusion: The Horde has more right to Azeroth than the Alliance does.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on November 06, 2009, 05:32:45 AM
Wow, I must have missed a lot with fast quest text on.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on November 06, 2009, 05:34:41 AM
Oh good lord. Please, pretty please, with a cherry on top - do some fucking basic research before you come off like a total lunat... oh, wait. Too late, nevermind.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on November 06, 2009, 05:47:36 AM
Does any of that lore mean that I no longer have to kill 10 rats?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 06, 2009, 05:54:57 AM
No, the rats are thrice-cursed rogue wildlife.  They have no right to Azeroth.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kageh on November 06, 2009, 05:57:55 AM
Humans are descendants from the degenerated "weak" Vyrkul children that survived, no? And Vyrkul were natives of Northrend? That would make them natives.

Dwarves resulted from degenerated "earthen", used by the Titans as workers, so yes, invasive.

Gnomes were some sort of weird mutation from robotic servants of the Titans, so yes, invasive too.

On the Worgen subject, I think there is speculation of the original species being somehow related to druidic magic on Azeroth, given the Scythe of Elune stuff and all, but until then canon is to think of them as an alien species summoned by Arugal after initial research by Ur.

About the horde "native" races (Tauren, Troll, Goblin): the fact that there isn't lore suggesting the contrary doesn't mean those weren't Titan creations at one point or the other.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 06, 2009, 06:10:10 AM
Humans are descendants from the degenerated "weak" Vyrkul children that survived, no? And Vyrkul were natives of Northrend? That would make them natives.

Dwarves resulted from degenerated "earthen", used by the Titans as workers, so yes, invasive.

Gnomes were some sort of weird mutation from robotic servants of the Titans, so yes, invasive too.

On the Worgen subject, I think there is speculation of the original species being somehow related to druidic magic on Azeroth, given the Scythe of Elune stuff and all, but until then canon is to think of them as an alien species summoned by Arugal after initial research by Ur.

About the horde "native" races (Tauren, Troll, Goblin): the fact that there isn't lore suggesting the contrary doesn't mean those weren't Titan creations at one point or the other.

The Vykrul were a seed race, like the giants and earthen.  Most of the ones who look mostly human are Titan-creations, made in their image.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on November 06, 2009, 09:18:27 AM
I was under the impression that Vyrkul, dwarves, and I guess gnomes were all the result of Titan mechanical creations that were affected by the Curse of Flesh?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 06, 2009, 09:37:51 AM
I kinda like the idea that "there must always be a Lich King" in theory. Like he's become this sort of eternal force that can never really be destroyed but only thwarted, bigger than Ner'zhul or Arthas or whoever, this sort of god of undeath that gobbles up the soul of whatever mortal shell it's inhabiting.

But this "brainless zombies are way more dangerous than ones directed by an evil intelligence" crap is for the birds.

Someone on Wowhead raised a good point that pretty much confirms this.  How can there be new death knights if there is no Lich King to raise them?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on November 06, 2009, 10:09:25 AM
Same way new Death Knights still go to Outland.  I look at the whole DK starter area as a flashback, so there's no reason why Arthas couldn't have made any of these 'new' DKs (even the Worgen).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 06, 2009, 10:21:12 AM
They fell through a Bronze Dragon time Portal.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on November 06, 2009, 10:21:38 AM
Someone on Wowhead raised a good point that pretty much confirms this.  How can there be new death knights if there is no Lich King to raise them?

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/b/bb/Twilight%27s_Hammer.JPG/260px-Twilight%27s_Hammer.JPG)

Kickin' it old school.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 06, 2009, 10:22:25 AM
arf arf arf

You should have just quit responding for a while like you usually do when you get owned. It would have given the impression that you don't really give a shit and were maybe just taking the piss. Instead you posted all that shit and looked like a desperate psycho.

Someone on Wowhead raised a good point that pretty much confirms this.  How can there be new death knights if there is no Lich King to raise them?

What Nevermore said. There's an implicit assumption that you're moving forward in time as you level. That's how Hemet Nesingwary can be standing in Outland and Northrend at the same time. You're to assume that by the time you get to Sholozar Basin, he's packed up and left Nagrand rather than standing there handing out the same quests to other people. Level 68-78 characters will be running around Northrend getting taunted by Arthas at every turn forever.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: DraconianOne on November 06, 2009, 11:42:05 AM
You're absolutely right. The Forsaken have every right to Lordaeron. After all, for the most part they ARE the people of Lordaeron. Just stinkier and with more bones showing lately. Of course they still deserve to have their ass kicked. After all, they threw the poor innocent orcs into internment camps after the Second War and were totally rotten to the Blood Elves.

 :why_so_serious:

The Forsaken have every right to Lordaeron because our plague is better than yours. Also, we can hold our breath for longer.

And no, they were not and never were rotten to the Blood Elves, even as Lordaeronainaians. That was that dick Garithos who survived the plague. Obviously it was jealousy because he never got the chance to become Forsaken or hang out with Sylvanas, who, by the way, was a Blood Elf. Or High Elf. Whatever. So the Forsaken were so rotten to Blood Elves that they made one their leader.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 06, 2009, 12:20:51 PM
And no, they were not and never were rotten to the Blood Elves, even as Lordaeronainaians. That was that dick Garithos who survived the plague. Obviously it was jealousy because he never got the chance to become Forsaken or hang out with Sylvanas, who, by the way, was a Blood Elf. Or High Elf. Whatever. So the Forsaken were so rotten to Blood Elves that they made one their leader.

In other words, we don't discriminate.  We hate everyone the same.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 06, 2009, 01:07:27 PM
Someone on Wowhead raised a good point that pretty much confirms this.  How can there be new death knights if there is no Lich King to raise them?
Because I want to do a fantasy reinactment of Underworld, only Kate Beckingsale gets to be the hybrid and I get to pretend to be her.

Also what Nevermore said.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 06, 2009, 01:18:22 PM
And no, they were not and never were rotten to the Blood Elves, even as Lordaeronainaians. That was that dick Garithos who survived the plague. Obviously it was jealousy because he never got the chance to become Forsaken or hang out with Sylvanas, who, by the way, was a Blood Elf. Or High Elf. Whatever. So the Forsaken were so rotten to Blood Elves that they made one their leader.

The point, you have missed it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on November 06, 2009, 02:09:53 PM
As far as I know it's never really cleared up whether the Titans expected gnomes and dwarves to be native fauna.  Presumably they created the trolls/elves as well.  Speculating about whether one was in the plan and the other wasn't isn't valid.  I don't recall any creation story beyond the Vrykul connection for humans.

Regarding the time scale while leveling - in addition to Hemet, Tirion Fordring is still a hermit in EPL and Saurfang Jr is still a questgiver in Nagrand, in addition to their later appearances.  One wonders why they didn't use phasing to eliminate them for players who later were at the Wrathgate.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Oban on November 06, 2009, 03:15:56 PM

LORELOL


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 06, 2009, 03:56:17 PM
As far as I know it's never really cleared up whether the Titans expected gnomes and dwarves to be native fauna.  Presumably they created the trolls/elves as well.  Speculating about whether one was in the plan and the other wasn't isn't valid.  I don't recall any creation story beyond the Vrykul connection for humans.

In Uldaman during the loregasm, they say both the dwarves and troggs are unexpected variants on the earthen, but dwarves are cool and troggs are not (I forget why).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tannhauser on November 06, 2009, 04:21:07 PM
IIRC, troggs were the first, failed experiment.  Dwarves come from the successful line of Earthen.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 06, 2009, 04:34:27 PM
I looked it up on WoWwiki, the troggs and dwarves are both variations upon the Earthern. From the loregasm dialogue:

What happens when the Earthen destabilize?

There are two potential results when the Earthen's synthesis matrix destabilizes. Initiating visual aid representation number one.
The first variant matrix is a degenerative product of synthesis, hereby designated with the common nomenclature of "Trogg". This variant maintains strength and stamina comparable to the Earthen, but its cognitive processing power has been almost completely compromised. Force of will and a strong sense of cunning are the only driving factors in the psyche of the trogg.

Troggs?! Are the troggs you mention the same as the ones in the world today?

I am unable to process your chronological reference in comparison to the recording of this data, my apologies.
The trogg retains some composition of Azeroth's various stone core compounds, but the loss of cognitive power makes this variant unacceptable to the Creators.
The trogg procreates as per a standard biomass. By default it consumes stone and anything else it can acquire, including other troggs. Cannibalism is considered unacceptable by the Creators.  (Sjofn comment: Uh oh, look out, trolls!)

It then goes on to talk about dwarves and how the Creators are cool with dwarves because they aren't dumb and don't eat each other and stuff. It's pretty long, so I will just give you a link (http://www.wowwiki.com/Lore_Keeper_of_Norgannon) to the rest. :)


EDIT: And given the creators were okay with the dwarves even though they weren't planned, I think Simond's blathering about them not having any claim to Azeroth is EXTRA doofy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on November 06, 2009, 05:40:01 PM

LORELOL



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 06, 2009, 06:36:19 PM
For actually going to wowwiki, looking up game dialogue, pasting it into this thread as part of a debate, and provoking another disgruntled post from Rasix, I bestow upon Sjofn the rank of Apprentice Nerd-Warrior. Congratulations. To continue up the ranks I recommend developing strong opinions on which quarter-century old RPGs ripped what off from who, and the relative combat capabilities of an Imperial Star Destroyer versus the starship Enterprise.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 06, 2009, 06:43:56 PM
For actually going to wowwiki, looking up game dialogue, pasting it into this thread as part of a debate, and provoking another disgruntled post from Rasix, I bestow upon Sjofn the rank of Apprentice Nerd-Warrior. Congratulations. To continue up the ranks I recommend developing strong opinions on which quarter-century old RPGs ripped what off from who, and the relative combat capabilities of an Imperial Star Destroyer versus the starship Enterprise.

Not to de-rail...or maybe specifically to de-rail the loregasms here...

Who would ever argue the star wars style spaceships are better than star-trek ones? I mean I understand nerds getting in a superman/hulk fight but star trek seems massively overpowered.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 06, 2009, 07:03:11 PM
For all that it's shinier, Trek is generally at a massive tech disadvantage. When Voyager needs to cross a substantial portion of the galaxy, it's the thrust of an entire series. In Star Wars, any random civilian can buy a hyperdrive capable of making that trip in a day or two. From a junkyard. Maybe pick up a couple of sentient robots with the change.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 06, 2009, 07:13:55 PM
For actually going to wowwiki, looking up game dialogue, pasting it into this thread as part of a debate, and provoking another disgruntled post from Rasix, I bestow upon Sjofn the rank of Apprentice Nerd-Warrior. Congratulations. To continue up the ranks I recommend developing strong opinions on which quarter-century old RPGs ripped what off from who, and the relative combat capabilities of an Imperial Star Destroyer versus the starship Enterprise.

Woo! :woot:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 06, 2009, 07:35:49 PM
How sentient are SW robots? I always thought it was sort of mimickry but not sentience.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 06, 2009, 08:02:01 PM
How sentient are SW robots? I always thought it was sort of mimickry but not sentience.

Fully sentient.

Which makes mindwipes seen as a sort of murder by some folks.  Others say "It's a fucking toaster that thinks.  They don't have a soul, so it doesn't matter!"



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 06, 2009, 08:31:01 PM
Yet, the SW universe has yet to master colour television though!  :lol:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 06, 2009, 08:32:05 PM
(http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/october/frostwyrm2.jpg)

Looks like the winged horse will be the icecrown version of mim's head and this will be the new proto drake.  :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Megrim on November 06, 2009, 09:35:41 PM
Someone on Wowhead raised a good point that pretty much confirms this.  How can there be new death knights if there is no Lich King to raise them?
Because I want to do a fantasy reinactment of Underworld, only Kate Beckingsale gets to be the hybrid and I get to pretend to be her.

Also what Nevermore said.

I read that as 'and I get to penetrate her'. This is what happens when i don't have coffee.

I feel the warp overtaking me. It is a good pain.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on November 07, 2009, 05:59:47 AM
For actually going to wowwiki, looking up game dialogue, pasting it into this thread as part of a debate, and provoking another disgruntled post from Rasix, I bestow upon Sjofn the rank of Apprentice Nerd-Warrior. Congratulations. To continue up the ranks I recommend developing strong opinions on which quarter-century old RPGs ripped what off from who, and the relative combat capabilities of an Imperial Star Destroyer versus the starship Enterprise.

Wouldn't we be better off comparing the Star Destroyer and the Defiant? as the latter is at least exclusively geared towards war like the former.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on November 07, 2009, 08:41:14 AM
And so it begins....   :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 07, 2009, 09:24:14 AM
Incoming   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 07, 2009, 09:29:38 AM
Wouldn't we be better off comparing the Star Destroyer and the Defiant? as the latter is at least exclusively geared towards war like the former.

Doesn't matter. You can make it the Defiant and the Enterprise at the same time, with one free hour to fire their guns into the Star Destroyer's shields unopposed, and it won't make any difference. They're just in different leagues. One is a galaxy-spanning civilization that's had FTL travel for tens of thousands of years, the other is a regional power that's had it for a couple centuries tops.

I forget all the details, but basically Trek whips stuff like Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, and whatever stupid-ass spaceships Battletech has. Star Wars, Warhammer 40k, and Dune are all a full league up and roughly comparable to each other. Then stuff like Dr. Who, The Culture, and a few other things from books I don't immediately recall are several leagues up from everyone else.

Trek versus Wars used to be THE nerdfight topic, but it pretty much died off years ago after being as close to settled as something like that is going to get.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 07, 2009, 09:31:34 AM
We need a 'ITT: WUA is the Nerd King' thread.  I don't know how much more of this I can take.  I submit to you, humbly, that he knew exactly what he was doing when he brought up Star Wars vs. Star Trek in a World of Warcraft Patch thread.  I hazard this post may only contribute to his perverse thread incoherence obsession if not taken as a serious plea to those out there with both Da Powah and the human emotion of Compassion.  Please.  If you're out there, save us from the bad man.

 :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on November 07, 2009, 09:47:55 AM
Wouldn't we be better off comparing the Star Destroyer and the Defiant? as the latter is at least exclusively geared towards war like the former.

Doesn't matter. You can make it the Defiant and the Enterprise at the same time, with one free hour to fire their guns into the Star Destroyer's shields unopposed, and it won't make any difference. They're just in different leagues. One is a galaxy-spanning civilization that's had FTL travel for tens of thousands of years, the other is a regional power that's had it for a couple centuries tops.


Pokes the hornet's nest.

And yet it was still possible for some nimrod to single-handedly take out a Super Star Destroyer by crashing his 30' fighter into it.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Megrim on November 07, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
Wouldn't we be better off comparing the Star Destroyer and the Defiant? as the latter is at least exclusively geared towards war like the former.

Doesn't matter. You can make it the Defiant and the Enterprise at the same time, with one free hour to fire their guns into the Star Destroyer's shields unopposed, and it won't make any difference. They're just in different leagues. One is a galaxy-spanning civilization that's had FTL travel for tens of thousands of years, the other is a regional power that's had it for a couple centuries tops.

I forget all the details, but basically Trek whips stuff like Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, and whatever stupid-ass spaceships Battletech has. Star Wars, Warhammer 40k, and Dune are all a full league up and roughly comparable to each other. Then stuff like Dr. Who, The Culture, and a few other things from books I don't immediately recall are several leagues up from everyone else.

Trek versus Wars used to be THE nerdfight topic, but it pretty much died off years ago after being as close to settled as something like that is going to get.

Actually, i'd be interested to know how stuff from Dr. Who would compare.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 07, 2009, 10:22:35 AM
Dr. Who has all of time and space.  It could pull out anything, including SSDs or Borg Cubes.  It could also go back and mercifully stop this derail from happening in the first place.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 07, 2009, 10:42:49 AM
And yet it was still possible for some nimrod to single-handedly take out a Super Star Destroyer by crashing his 30' fighter into it.  :awesome_for_real:

I shall let this pass without comment because I am a sane and non-geeky individual.

Wait, I lied. You know you can't resist clicking the spoiler tag. But be warned, this way lies madness and I shall not be held accountable.


Edit: Also, I don't know anything about Dr. Who really. I just know that pretty much anything involved with it ranks way above anything else we're talking about here, based on nerd consensus from fights I didn't take part in.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 07, 2009, 12:35:13 PM
Still more interesting than wow lore fights.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 07, 2009, 12:44:58 PM
Wait, I lied. You know you can't resist clicking the spoiler tag. But be warned, this way lies madness and I shall not be held accountable.
Weapon 5, Primary Shield, Secondary Shield, Engines to make it easier, then BOOM! ;D


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 07, 2009, 01:22:17 PM
I don't get it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 07, 2009, 01:28:23 PM
Doesn't matter. You can make it the Defiant and the Enterprise at the same time, with one free hour to fire their guns into the Star Destroyer's shields unopposed, and it won't make any difference. They're just in different leagues. One is a galaxy-spanning civilization that's had FTL travel for tens of thousands of years, the other is a regional power that's had it for a couple centuries tops.

That's not even going into the fact that they have Interdictor's for pulling ships out of warp, Super Star Destroyers like the Executor, and Legacy-era Pellaeon-class SDs. 

Plus, turbolasers.  Who needs 'phasers' when you have turbolasers?!



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 07, 2009, 01:34:15 PM
Wait, I lied. You know you can't resist clicking the spoiler tag. But be warned, this way lies madness and I shall not be held accountable.
Weapon 5, Primary Shield, Secondary Shield, Engines to make it easier, then BOOM! ;D

Is that an X-wing vs TIE fighter reference I see before me?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 07, 2009, 01:59:58 PM
Anyway, they're having Lay on Hands cause Repentance. Cocksuckers. The "paladins are always overpowered no matter what they nerf" crowd on the forum is already visibly searching for what to bitch about next.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 07, 2009, 02:19:46 PM
Perhaps they have an opinion on La Forge vs. Sulu?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 07, 2009, 02:34:37 PM
Anyway, they're having Lay on Hands cause Repentance. Cocksuckers. The "paladins are always overpowered no matter what they nerf" crowd on the forum is already visibly searching for what to bitch about next.

It hurts, but I'll survive.  Better than not being able to use it on myself.   It's the choice between, less damage to give the healer time to heal, or a full heal because the healer's probably dead.

Quote
Perhaps they have an opinion on La Forge vs. Sulu?

Sulu all the way.  The man's impossibly ripped and a fencer.  LaForge is blind and a bit doughy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on November 07, 2009, 03:58:00 PM
Wouldn't we be better off comparing the Star Destroyer and the Defiant? as the latter is at least exclusively geared towards war like the former.

Doesn't matter. You can make it the Defiant and the Enterprise at the same time, with one free hour to fire their guns into the Star Destroyer's shields unopposed, and it won't make any difference. They're just in different leagues. One is a galaxy-spanning civilization that's had FTL travel for tens of thousands of years, the other is a regional power that's had it for a couple centuries tops.

I forget all the details, but basically Trek whips stuff like Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, and whatever stupid-ass spaceships Battletech has. Star Wars, Warhammer 40k, and Dune are all a full league up and roughly comparable to each other. Then stuff like Dr. Who, The Culture, and a few other things from books I don't immediately recall are several leagues up from everyone else.

Trek versus Wars used to be THE nerdfight topic, but it pretty much died off years ago after being as close to settled as something like that is going to get.

You're absolutely right. I just didn't want to be left out of all this nerd action.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 07, 2009, 04:13:31 PM
BattleTech spaceships, outside of the FTL JumpDrive, are things we could probably make TODAY if cost was no issue.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on November 07, 2009, 05:39:42 PM
Anyway, they're having Lay on Hands cause Repentance. Cocksuckers. The "paladins are always overpowered no matter what they nerf" crowd on the forum is already visibly searching for what to bitch about next.

Forbearance.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 07, 2009, 07:15:04 PM
The problem with the Star Wars versus Star Trek thing is it's comparing a fantasy setting to a sci fi one. Star Wars, for all its robuts and spaceships, is much more a fantasy than sci fi.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 07, 2009, 08:39:56 PM
I don't get it.
It's the simplified take down method of the Corvette for the Ace mission in Jump to Lightspeed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 07, 2009, 09:44:12 PM
Ditch the Feds. All you need to beat the Empire is some of these guys.

(http://stephendann.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/ewok_glider.jpg)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 07, 2009, 09:57:13 PM
The problem with the Star Wars versus Star Trek thing is it's comparing a fantasy setting to a sci fi one.

Totally, what with the noble humans and their stalwart but aloof pointy-eared allies the Elves Vulcans, the sinister and secretive cousins of those allies the Dark Elves Romulans, the proud and warlike Orcs Klingons, the short greedy Goblins Ferengi, and the shambling ashen-skinned legions of the Undead Borg who won't rest until everyone else has been forcibly converted to their ranks.

Wait, which was which again?  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 07, 2009, 10:12:15 PM
Star Trek tries to explain its technology, and shows advancement of said technology. It talks about who invented what foozle and when and how cool that was blah blah blah. Star Wars, all its tech basically sprung fully formed from Zeus' head, no one talks about how any of it works, and there is not as much of a WOO TECH ADVANCE focus, even when it's something like HOLY SHIT STUPID CLONE ARMY or OMG DEATHSTAR. How many thousands of years before the movies does KotOR happen? It's barely different tech-wise. It's not stuck in some fakey middle ages kingdom like fantasy is USUALLY set in, but it is stuck pretty much in the same time period no matter WHEN it is actually happening.

Star Wars isn't elfy fantasy, but it is fantasy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 07, 2009, 10:18:24 PM
Plus, you know. Magic and swordfighting.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 07, 2009, 10:19:28 PM
Yeah true, the magic using sword dudes are somehow more powerful than the blaster people.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 07, 2009, 10:31:00 PM
Yeah, Star Wars is definitely fantasy and doesn't really pretend otherwise. But Trek has way too many mind-readers, possessions, demigods, and people getting transported to Sherwood Forest for me to take the "Oh but this is real sci-fi" angle too seriously no matter how many times they work the word "quantum" into a given script.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 07, 2009, 10:39:27 PM
Well, I never said it was good sci fi.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 07, 2009, 10:51:12 PM
We need to reverse the polarities on this thread!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 07, 2009, 11:03:12 PM
BUT SHE CANNA TAKE MUCH MORE O' THIS!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Megrim on November 07, 2009, 11:03:48 PM
And yet it was still possible for some nimrod to single-handedly take out a Super Star Destroyer by crashing his 30' fighter into it.  :awesome_for_real:

I shall let this pass without comment because I am a sane and non-geeky individual.

Wait, I lied. You know you can't resist clicking the spoiler tag. But be warned, this way lies madness and I shall not be held accountable.


Edit: Also, I don't know anything about Dr. Who really. I just know that pretty much anything involved with it ranks way above anything else we're talking about here, based on nerd consensus from fights I didn't take part in.

Dammit, i was hoping to get a Dr. Who nerd in here so that they could explain the whole thing to me. I can't find an easy/cheap way to watch the series from the beginning so i'm trying to find other means.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on November 08, 2009, 01:51:04 AM
Suffice to say Dr Who takes in the whole of Time, Space, Technology and Multiple realities.

The TARDIS is the most trivial of their technology and it is pretty much a living God.

So, yeah, he can take on a Star Destroyer or Death Star with a Sonic Screwdriver.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on November 08, 2009, 05:09:40 AM
Star Trek tries to explain its technology, and shows advancement of said technology. It talks about who invented what foozle and when and how cool that was blah blah blah. Star Wars, all its tech basically sprung fully formed from Zeus' head, no one talks about how any of it works, and there is not as much of a WOO TECH ADVANCE focus, even when it's something like HOLY SHIT STUPID CLONE ARMY or OMG DEATHSTAR. How many thousands of years before the movies does KotOR happen? It's barely different tech-wise. It's not stuck in some fakey middle ages kingdom like fantasy is USUALLY set in, but it is stuck pretty much in the same time period no matter WHEN it is actually happening.

Star Wars isn't elfy fantasy, but it is fantasy.
Star Trek sort of has to explain it's technology.  You can't really get away from that in a series that has HUNDREDS of hour long episodes, and where major plot developments often REVOLVE around said technology and how it works (often multiple times in a given episode).

Starwars, on the other hand (at least for the first 3 movies) never really bothers to explain it's technology because the technology is never the focus of the show.  That, and I always looked at starwars tech to be somewhat the same as WH 40k tech, in that the tech was sort of "stuck" in a cycle, where no one really builds new shit because the empire controls everything and it is focused more on "repair and reuse" then "re-invent and revolutionize".


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 08, 2009, 05:18:34 AM
BUT SHE CANNA TAKE MUCH MORE O' THIS!

Just invert the tachyon stream and route it through the deflector dish!  If shit starts to get real, purge the hydrogen from the bussard collectors and be prepared to ignite it.  If that fails, we'll have to dump the warp core and vent the shuttle bay to space.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on November 08, 2009, 07:21:46 AM
So from reading up on the 3.3 fights in Icecrown, it appears that they are updating a lot of older mechanics, and then mixing it in with some newer mechanics that I can only hope don't come off as gimmicky.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 08, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
How dare you come in here with a blatant re-rail.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on November 08, 2009, 04:00:59 PM
The real question for me is how obnoxious they are going to be with the encounters in Icecrown. On one hand, this is the effectively the end-all-be-all fight that everyone has been waiting for since they first leaked that Blizzard was doing an MMO. I would think they want as many people to be involved with it as possible. OTOH they don't want to get razzed by the ubers about how much of a loot pinata Arthas is, so they will probably overtune the shit out of everything.

I'm betting if I wait a month after release to start my raid, I might actually catch the back end of them tuning it correctly.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 08, 2009, 05:01:35 PM
The real question for me is how obnoxious they are going to be with the encounters in Icecrown.
While difficult is fine with me, I just don't want the obnoxious encounters ala The Twins and C'thun in AQ40 where it was mostly about how to most creatively wipe groups all night and break up guilds due to anger and frustration.  On the other hand I definitely do not want it as easy as TotC has been so far.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on November 08, 2009, 05:23:19 PM
The real question for me is how obnoxious they are going to be with the encounters in Icecrown. On one hand, this is the effectively the end-all-be-all fight that everyone has been waiting for since they first leaked that Blizzard was doing an MMO. I would think they want as many people to be involved with it as possible. OTOH they don't want to get razzed by the ubers about how much of a loot pinata Arthas is, so they will probably overtune the shit out of everything.

I'm betting if I wait a month after release to start my raid, I might actually catch the back end of them tuning it correctly.
Arthas will likely be as tough or tougher than 4 keeper Yogg on normal, and probably mathematically impossible on heroic for a good month. The good thing about the addition of much more explicit heroic modes (by switching rather than triggers) means the two encounters can be balanced really well to their respective audiences.

Normal mode kills mean shit in terms of progression now outside of the "rah rah" value. The real race for the uberguilds is heroic mode now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on November 08, 2009, 09:11:15 PM
Normal mode kills mean shit in terms of progression now outside of the "rah rah" value. The real race for the uberguilds is heroic mode now.

This is a good point, and hopefully their overall focus. The emphasis should be on overloading the ubers in the heroic modes, rather than fucking my people over who can focus when drunk.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 09, 2009, 03:14:19 AM
I'm hoping for another Ulduar-difficulty raid at the start, which gives social guilds like mine an interesting but not insurmountable challenge, while not being a joke like ToTC


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 09, 2009, 06:18:20 AM
For people who say ToC is a joke... have you cleared Heroic?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 09, 2009, 06:36:59 AM
For people who say ToC is a joke... have you cleared Heroic?
Different story though.  If my guild (composed of mostly casual people) can clear an entire raid the 2nd week it's out when we finally got a chance to do it, it was just a bit too easy.  As far as heroic mode... my character is geared up enough for it, but finding a group of people willing to actually do it is quite difficult (tried this weekend, me and a friend were #1 and #2 on DPS and the other better geared characters were almost 1k behind us, leading to problems).  Everyone says "I'm saved because of my guild" or "my guild is going to try this this week" on Monday nights...  I don't consider heroic mode to be *that* much of a challenge, but at least it definitely exists and we have the option.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 09, 2009, 07:10:06 AM
This is pretty much what I'm getting at.  When people say ToC is a joke, they mean, 'the ToC I'm willing to try for is a joke'.  Heroic 10 is a bitch, and Heroic 25 is worse.  I really don't have much a problem with 10 and 25 normal being quick and easy.  Ulduar would be quick and easy if not for trash, Vezax, and people getting mind-controlled on Yogg.  The real difference is the complete lack of trash to clear in ToC.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on November 09, 2009, 10:17:13 AM
Yeah, we gave up on Ulduar because of trash.  Any new instance that comes out with trash levels like Ulduar will have a hard time with popularity anymore I'm thinking.  Basically anything that can drop the equivalent of 5 emblems/ea along with 5 purples/raid in 45 minutes to 1:15 hour is the norm anymore.

We farm ToC and Onyxia now.  Our casual guild took maybe 4 weeks before having successive clears on Regular ToC25 (with PuGs.)  We do regular ToC10 very easily, but we haven't even attempted heroic as far as I know (other than 5-man of course.) 

The regular runs of ToC may be easy when compared to raids of the past, but they aren't nearly as boring/painful and they were really meant to get people into decent gear for other things.  If you are truly a "raid" guild and aren't doing the heroic modes, not sure why not.  That's certainly our next step eventually.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 09, 2009, 11:54:29 AM
This is pretty much what I'm getting at.  When people say ToC is a joke, they mean, 'the ToC I'm willing to try for is a joke'.  Heroic 10 is a bitch, and Heroic 25 is worse.  I really don't have much a problem with 10 and 25 normal being quick and easy.  Ulduar would be quick and easy if not for trash, Vezax, and people getting mind-controlled on Yogg.  The real difference is the complete lack of trash to clear in ToC.

Yeah but the guild type K9 is talking about will generally not be able to even make a credible attempt at *any* heroic difficulty stuff. His point is entirely about the difference in difficulty between Ulduar normal and TotC normal, I suspect. For guilds like mine (and to a lesser extent his, I think they've actually cleared it, our raiding has kind of fallen apart lately with the usual fall out of game busy-ness, computers dying, and the flood of good game releases starting, etc.) Ulduar normal *is* hard. Very hard.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 09, 2009, 12:30:21 PM
Yeah but the guild type K9 is talking about will generally not be able to even make a credible attempt at *any* heroic difficulty stuff. His point is entirely about the difference in difficulty between Ulduar normal and TotC normal, I suspect. For guilds like mine (and to a lesser extent his, I think they've actually cleared it, our raiding has kind of fallen apart lately with the usual fall out of game busy-ness, computers dying, and the flood of good game releases starting, etc.) Ulduar normal *is* hard. Very hard.

I understand his basic point, but I was getting at a) there is still another challenger! (hard modes) and b) Ulduar isn't *really* harder than ToC, just significantly more annoying.  For instance, Freya trash clearing adds extra annoyance time onto a fight that's really not all that hard.  Or the huge stone giants, which take more attention than burning Kologarn down for the 20th time.

If there was trash inbetween the bosses in ToC, I doubt the easy mode calls would be as prevalent.  If you could teleport directly to each boss in Uldaur, it'd be the same.  ToC is quicker, I'll agree, but easier, not necessarily.  In the time you've done 5 attempts on Ignis, you've gotten 10+ on Beasts.  The wipe/learning curve is merely shorter.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on November 09, 2009, 01:40:10 PM
Yeah really it is the quick turn around on wipe-retry that is the biggest difference.  You can sit and churn on a boss in ToC for one night and you basically have it by that point.  You may not be able to get past due to gear requirements, but the strategy will be ready.

Ulduar type learning curve is vastly vastly different.  By the time you get to a tough boss people only have a few wipes in them before they all start dropping off.  In our case, that's going to be it for the week and then you start all over again the next time.  As you get deeper and deeper, this gets even worse!  We had already been through Karazhan in the same way and really weren't ready to do it all over again.  We stopped caring about Ulduar really quickly.

This is a difference of learning a boss in one night compared to 4 weeks.  Thus ToC was learned and understood by all within a week or two.  With easy drops, etc. from other sources (heroics, regular and heroic 5 - man runs, emblem purchases, etc.) we had the gear to actually get through the instance by the 4th week.  We are still challenged on 25 regular just because we require PuG's to fill out the raid and heroic mode is still in our future.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 09, 2009, 01:46:24 PM
Ulduar type learning curve is vastly vastly different.  By the time you get to a tough boss people only have a few wipes in them before they all start dropping off.  In our case, that's going to be it for the week and then you start all over again the next time.  As you get deeper and deeper, this gets even worse!  We had already been through Karazhan in the same way and really weren't ready to do it all over again.  We stopped caring about Ulduar really quickly.


That sounds like our guild, so much time is spent getting to the deep bosses, its rare we get more then a few tries before bedtime and etc.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 09, 2009, 02:45:27 PM
We have had that problem, yes, although we were able to get ourselves to the point where we just don't wipe on bosses 95% of the time in Karazhan, or Naxx; Ulduar has never gotten to that point for us. So either we've gotten dumber, or the execution really is just that much harder in there. But yeah, schedule-wise Kara was always a 2 night clear for us. Its rare for a raid to go as long as 3 hours for us, and we only raid 2 nights a week.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 09, 2009, 02:48:14 PM
For people who say ToC is a joke... have you cleared Heroic?

we're 4/5 at the moment with our absolute A-group. The rest is stuck in limbo between the two. We're a casual guild and we can 1-shot normal 10 in 30mins with a group of alts. Heroic rapes face unless we have a balanced group of our top players. For us we'd happily forego heroic for a more entertaining normal mode. The fact that you can have trade PuGs that clear ToTC and Onyxia, yet who will wipe on Ignis or XT should be a clue to the wonky balance.

Ulduar had a higher bottom end difficulty, and a lower high-end. It also had the advantage of non-linearity. In ToC, the second hardest boss is the first. If you can do heroic beasts, heroic Jaraxxus and Valkyr is a pushover. The difficulty in ToC is schizophrenic, whereas in Ulduar you had a series of Easy bosses (FL, Razor, XT, Kolo, Auriaya) with the hard bosses hanging off the side. It was very hard to get stuck for ages, as the gatekeeper bosses were the easiest, as it should be. In ToC, if you can't do beasts, you can't do shit.

Regarding the length of raids; this is a problem to an extent, but I personally enjoy the grander raids. Furthermore, now that you can extend lockouts, there is less of a rush to cram all the bosses into the first week. Also, as with places like Kara and Ulduar, the difficulty curve is fairly even, so by the time you are making attempts on bosses halfway in, you should be 1-shotting all the prior bosses. The tiresome thing comes when you are working on the end bosses and the front lot becomes exaggerated trash. Ideally they could fix this by adding a Kara-style/Algalon-style door somewhere that would allow you to jump into the instance 1/3rd or 1/2 way through. I guess that's a pipe dream.

Yeah, we gave up on Ulduar because of trash.

uh?

One of the best things about Ulduar was the low amount of trash. With the exception of Freya, most of the trash wasn't particularly tiresome.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 09, 2009, 03:21:03 PM
We have had that problem, yes, although we were able to get ourselves to the point where we just don't wipe on bosses 95% of the time in Karazhan, or Naxx; Ulduar has never gotten to that point for us. So either we've gotten dumber, or the execution really is just that much harder in there. But yeah, schedule-wise Kara was always a 2 night clear for us. Its rare for a raid to go as long as 3 hours for us, and we only raid 2 nights a week.

Last time I raided Ulduar (which feels like a million years ago, fuckin' dead compjuter! ><) we one-shot MOST of the bosses. Our problem seems to be that we'll be rolling along and then there's one boss we have trouble on for some weird ass reason and we wind up banging our heads against it for too long. Like we'll kick everything's ass and then suddenly Iron Council will smoosh us 6 times. And it seems totally random, we've had multiple wipes on Kologarn long after the point where we should wipe on him at all. It's weird.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 09, 2009, 03:26:53 PM
One of the best things about Ulduar was the low amount of trash. With the exception of Freya, most of the trash wasn't particularly tiresome.

There's a little too much trash on the way to Hodir too, and those snowpiles bug out and get you stuck in combat sometimes, so I'd put those in the 'tiresome' bag too.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 09, 2009, 03:46:55 PM
We have had that problem, yes, although we were able to get ourselves to the point where we just don't wipe on bosses 95% of the time in Karazhan, or Naxx; Ulduar has never gotten to that point for us. So either we've gotten dumber, or the execution really is just that much harder in there. But yeah, schedule-wise Kara was always a 2 night clear for us. Its rare for a raid to go as long as 3 hours for us, and we only raid 2 nights a week.

Last time I raided Ulduar (which feels like a million years ago, fuckin' dead compjuter! ><) we one-shot MOST of the bosses. Our problem seems to be that we'll be rolling along and then there's one boss we have trouble on for some weird ass reason and we wind up banging our heads against it for too long. Like we'll kick everything's ass and then suddenly Iron Council will smoosh us 6 times. And it seems totally random, we've had multiple wipes on Kologarn long after the point where we should wipe on him at all. It's weird.


Our Raid comp is completely random is why.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 09, 2009, 04:06:57 PM
It's weird because even with the randomness of our compositions (which actually aren't that random usually), we'll tear through most of it and then suddenly Cat Lady kicks our ass for a half hour.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 09, 2009, 05:33:37 PM
One of the best things about Ulduar was the low amount of trash. With the exception of Freya, most of the trash wasn't particularly tiresome.

There's a little too much trash on the way to Hodir too, and those snowpiles bug out and get you stuck in combat sometimes, so I'd put those in the 'tiresome' bag too.

Yeah, I'll give you that.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 09, 2009, 05:51:44 PM
Really? Hodir is what, two giants, two ice packs and a few jormungars...

People have gotten really, really spoiled when it comes to trash. Technically freya has the most but there's three mini-bosses along the way and she's pretty easy.  I think hodir just seems the worst because people routinely die on it, even if you've cleared it a dozen times.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 09, 2009, 07:44:11 PM
It's not a few jormungars, it's a zillion of the buggy motherfuckers. Cut those out and Hodir's hall would be pretty nice, but I am sick to death of being stuck in combat because the 12th worm in a snowbank decided to stay under the world.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 09, 2009, 07:57:54 PM
You fucks need a few corpse runs to put you back in line.  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on November 09, 2009, 08:30:19 PM
In the old days, a long set of bosses in a row that meant nothing to your raid would have bothered me. Now, we have raid extensions so making a longer raid has no effect when we have choices on the early stuff. The Black Temple days of killing every dumbass boss for the first 2 hours used to drive me nuts.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 09, 2009, 08:46:03 PM
You fucks need a few corpse runs to put you back in line.  :grin:

Maybe they'll re-do Ahn-Qiraj.  Then karma will be restored.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 09, 2009, 08:53:16 PM
You fucks need a few corpse runs to put you back in line.  :grin:

Maybe they'll re-do Ahn-Qiraj.  Then karma will be restored.

You shut your whore mouth.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on November 10, 2009, 04:57:41 AM
Shaman T10 Preview is finally up on MMO-Champ.


Christ, the detail on that. Even if it's not to some people's tastes, the sheer workmanship and artistry that has gone into that set pretty much completely eclipses the work on all the cloth caster T10 sets put together. It's like graphics from a different game. It seriously feels like there's 2 or 3 years difference in the textural quality.

And here's me trying not to think about levelling my Shaman till after Cataclysm.

*sigh*


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on November 10, 2009, 05:32:58 AM
People have gotten really, really spoiled when it comes to trash. Technically freya has the most but there's three mini-bosses along the way and she's pretty easy.  I think hodir just seems the worst because people routinely die on it, even if you've cleared it a dozen times.

This.  We ARE spoiled.  Any trash at this point is too much if we have another instance with short corpse runs, no trash, better items, and faster overall jackpot on emblems, etc.  That's just the way it is.  These shorter and less trash instances are allowing casual guilds to experience the content at their own pace and successfully.  For the most part, we are having more fun in the game than ever (3 years experience.)  Some might say it gets boring and quit for that reason, but it is just as boring to be blocked from content and the only way to get by it is to spend more time in game, which in most cases is not possible.

The risk Blizzard runs with this style is that now they really have to start piling on the content.  However, it seems like they have been keeping pace pretty well lately.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 10, 2009, 05:52:58 AM
Really? Hodir is what, two giants, two ice packs and a few jormungars...

People have gotten really, really spoiled when it comes to trash. Technically freya has the most but there's three mini-bosses along the way and she's pretty easy.  I think hodir just seems the worst because people routinely die on it, even if you've cleared it a dozen times.

The only problem I have with trash, is there's a spot in the average raider's mindspace after you've crested the progression curve and have content on farm.  This is the 'it just XXXXX' mindset.  Wherein you end up dying for no reason on trash and bosses you know because someone brought holy hell down because they were busy watching CSI Miami.  There's just a point where people stop paying attention, and the longer the instance, the more of that you'll get.  More random wipes, more afks, etc.  ToC?  That shit is done in 30 minutes tops.  Even on Heroic, we do maybe 5 attempts for the night on a single boss and we're done.  Without skipping, in 30 minutes on Ulduar you've gotten to XT if you're very good, and I think that's a stretch.

Raid dungeons should allow you to build a raid teleporter from fragments found in the raid (like Valnyr).  50 runs later, you can just teleport to the boss of your choosing.  It'll never happen, because it increases the gap between the have and have nots, but it'd be nice.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 10, 2009, 09:10:54 AM
You know, I understand it's the Lich King and all, but I really really wish Blizzard would let those of us who don't have a decent guild and can't raid heavily an opportunity to experience the defeat of the Lich King.  Lorewise, it's pretty much the end of the current world and cataclysm is the start of the beginning.  It's frustrating to think that someone like myself, who played WC3 to completion and tried TFT, can't experience the end of that.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 10, 2009, 09:14:02 AM
Just video stream it.  That's what I did with Kil'Jaeden as I was never going to see him.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 10, 2009, 09:20:59 AM
I plan on doing that.  The difference for me is that Kil'jaedan wasn't a big deal.  Once he's defeated someone else w ill step up to take control of the Burning Legion.  With Arthas, it's more personal in that those of us who played WC3 in that we led Arthas to his damnation and ascension.   Furthermore, I've been trying to get the Crusader title (BoA gear), and given that Crusaders are supposed to be the elite of the elite against Arthas, I think they should give something more than the BoA gear for those of us who grinded the damn thing.  Of course, the BoA gear is why I am grinding it out in the first place...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 10, 2009, 09:54:52 AM
People are pugging naxx/uld AND toc 10. There's no reason even in a small guild you won't be able to kill arthas.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 10, 2009, 11:27:21 AM
Shaman T10 Preview is finally up on MMO-Champ.


Christ, the detail on that. Even if it's not to some people's tastes, the sheer workmanship and artistry that has gone into that set pretty much completely eclipses the work on all the cloth caster T10 sets put together. It's like graphics from a different game. It seriously feels like there's 2 or 3 years difference in the textural quality.

And here's me trying not to think about levelling my Shaman till after Cataclysm.

*sigh*

Yea, despite the fact that I don't really like some of the overall design choices to homogenize some of the sets, the texture art team over there has markedly improved this expansion.  Maybe those two things are related by having more time to work on the textures.  I don't know.  But it's really good.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 10, 2009, 11:27:27 AM
Welllll... I don't think very many people are pugging the END of Ulduar.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 10, 2009, 11:29:54 AM
Yea, despite the fact that I don't really like some of the overall design choices to homogenize some of the sets

Keep in mind that they do separate sets for PVP now. Even with the 'reduction' in number of unique PVE sets at T9 (only 8 instead of 10 omg) the fact that they're also doing a pile of pvp suits every time means they're still doing more unique sets of art per tier than in the old days.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 10, 2009, 11:46:01 AM
People are pugging naxx/uld AND toc 10. There's no reason even in a small guild you won't be able to kill arthas.

Yea, I don't know about pugging Arthas.  Maybe in the final month before the expansion, he'll be nerfed or something.

Keep in mind that they do separate sets for PVP now. Even with the 'reduction' in number of unique PVE sets at T9 (only 8 instead of 10 omg) the fact that they're also doing a pile of pvp suits every time means they're still doing more unique sets of art per tier than in the old days.

I'm talking about the same model/different color homogeneous Plate, Mail, Leather, Cloth approach.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 10, 2009, 11:48:26 AM
For the random non-set loot? That's not new either.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 10, 2009, 12:32:38 PM
Nah, man.  I mean the tier 9 sets.  It's new.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/963220/t9_alliance_2000.jpg)

Edit:  Except I think they did this for the Tier 2.5 sets.  But they only sort of count.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 10, 2009, 12:47:53 PM
Nah, man.  I mean the tier 9 sets.  It's new.


Right, but its really 8 different sets, because its different for Horde and Alliance. Quantity-of-art-wise, its only a tiny amount less than in T8 or T10 - and its still much more of an art load than the old days when you factor in the season worth of pvp gear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on November 10, 2009, 12:52:59 PM
I hate Alliance T9 so fucking much. The Druid/Rogue set was the best of an exceptionally bland/ugly bunch. If I can skip ToC gear altogether and be able to raid Icecrown with Uld 10 gear and sundry high ilevel trappings, I will be very happy indeed. S'cuse me while I catch the magic catbus to lala-land.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on November 10, 2009, 12:57:28 PM
Yea, I didn't even realize they were different from Horde.  Shows how much I PvP.  That only makes it understandable, though.  I still think it's a dumb idea.  I'd rather have Horde and Alliance look the same and be able to identify somebody's class by looking at them.  You know, like god intended.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 10, 2009, 01:43:00 PM
And here's me trying not to think about levelling my Shaman till after Cataclysm.

*sigh*
I am starting to catch up with her in levels...

*poke*

 :evil:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on November 10, 2009, 02:28:47 PM
People are pugging naxx/uld AND toc 10. There's no reason even in a small guild you won't be able to kill arthas.

You know what the funny thing, I olny succeed at these in pugs, not in my guild. My guild is fucking incompetant, but my friends are there so...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 10, 2009, 05:11:21 PM
My guild is outright useless.  It was supposed to be a 5/10 man guild comprised of real life friends (no one I know), but there's no recruitment and our top healer left.  The best I've done is farm ToC.  Normally, the solo content is enough to keep me entertained, but the fight against Arthas is something i wanted to be a part of.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 10, 2009, 05:38:48 PM
What do you play? Chances are there's no shortage of guilds looking for your class, you just have to go find them.  Try  wowmatcher or some of the other websites out there.  Lots of guilds are always looking.  I've noticed that the ability to form successful PUG raids has really decimated the ability for guilds to hold together.  I suspect that's part of the reason for the guild enhancements coming in Cata.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 10, 2009, 06:43:20 PM
What do you play? Chances are there's no shortage of guilds looking for your class, you just have to go find them.
You would be surprised how little the bigger names that stay around for years actually need most classes.  As a mage, I don't qualify for 95% of the guilds out there, they have enough and don't need any more despite bringing serious DPS, survivability, and fight knowledge.  And unless you are fully decked out as a healer or tank with experience (and achievements to back it up), they don't want you either.  You have to get in the ground floor with a new guild of good players, or find one that is actively looking to switch from 10-m to 25-m content.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: LK on November 10, 2009, 11:15:53 PM
Something on this page makes my Chrome cry about hostile websites.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on November 11, 2009, 06:03:34 AM
Talking about guild recruitment:  Have you guys noticed a spike in populations lately?  Our guild is at its highest most active level in a long time (maybe ever) and we are still missing a lot of our originals.  We don't recruit, so I'm at a loss as to why.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 11, 2009, 06:38:55 AM
Our guild is at its highest most active level in a long time (maybe ever) and we are still missing a lot of our originals.
I just went through 2 implosions in a month, so I've pretty much got no guild =(


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 11, 2009, 09:29:21 AM
What do you play? Chances are there's no shortage of guilds looking for your class, you just have to go find them.  Try  wowmatcher or some of the other websites out there.  Lots of guilds are always looking.  I've noticed that the ability to form successful PUG raids has really decimated the ability for guilds to hold together.  I suspect that's part of the reason for the guild enhancements coming in Cata.

Me: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Andorhal&n=Delily

I haven't done much raiding or pvp since I've been trying to get the Crusader title and level Inscription.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Numtini on November 11, 2009, 11:59:21 AM
It seems quieter to me. But not to the point where it's scary or anything. (Which was how EQ2 felt when I went back to WoW last month.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on November 11, 2009, 12:01:59 PM
Our guild is at its highest most active level in a long time (maybe ever) and we are still missing a lot of our originals.
I just went through 2 implosions in a month, so I've pretty much got no guild =(

My guess is that we are just getting good rep from all the PuG's we bring in for our ToC25 runs.

Send me a PM if Whisperwind/Alliance interests you.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 11, 2009, 04:27:41 PM
Send me a PM if Whisperwind/Alliance interests you.
Sadly I've many 80 Horde characters and several more rapidly approaching 80.  My closest Alliance character is a 61 warlock.

I at least know all of the fights up to the heroic modes of TotC, so some people would say I'm an asset ;-)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 11, 2009, 05:59:27 PM
http://www.mmo-champion.com/ has some loot up. I was hoping one of the Quel'delar was going to be a staff, oh well.   :|


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on November 11, 2009, 06:27:41 PM
My God, is my DK actually POSSIBLY going to have a 2h sword?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on November 11, 2009, 11:41:48 PM
http://www.mmo-champion.com/ has some loot up. I was hoping one of the Quel'delar was going to be a staff, oh well.   :|
One of them is:  Problem is that it is a Feral DPS Staff.

I also want to slap the Quel'delar people upside the head for not including a spell DPS mace in the mix.  Kind of strait up fucks any Ele Shaman / Shadow Priest (priests cant do swords, right?) or Boomkin that actually wants to use the thing for their main spec.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 12, 2009, 01:01:42 AM
http://www.mmo-champion.com/ has some loot up. I was hoping one of the Quel'delar was going to be a staff, oh well.   :|
One of them is:  Problem is that it is a Feral DPS Staff.

I also want to slap the Quel'delar people upside the head for not including a spell DPS mace in the mix.  Kind of strait up fucks any Ele Shaman / Shadow Priest (priests cant do swords, right?) or Boomkin that actually wants to use the thing for their main spec.

The extra dumb thing is they could just make that caster sword a dagger and satisfy every dps caster in the game, and they'd still have the mace to cover the holy paladins.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 12, 2009, 04:01:16 AM
The 1h and 2h swords seem to have the same model.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 12, 2009, 06:52:19 AM
http://www.mmo-champion.com/ has some loot up. I was hoping one of the Quel'delar was going to be a staff, oh well.   :|
One of them is:  Problem is that it is a Feral DPS Staff.

I also want to slap the Quel'delar people upside the head for not including a spell DPS mace in the mix.  Kind of strait up fucks any Ele Shaman / Shadow Priest (priests cant do swords, right?) or Boomkin that actually wants to use the thing for their main spec.

The Spell Damage mace is better than nothing.

There's no tanking weapon for Warriors or Paladins whatsoever.  And seeing as you'll probably need a tank to finish the questline, I envision helping guildies run stuff to get a weapon I won't use for my main spec.  Glorious.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 12, 2009, 07:43:17 AM
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50966/abracadaver/

 :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 12, 2009, 07:59:37 AM
mhm, it's nice to see Blizz making a gentle swing back towards occasional items with entertaining extra stats.

Black Bruise (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50035/black-bruise/) is another, and one that I am sure will lead to some fun theorycrafting.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 12, 2009, 08:16:30 AM
I'm sure the Zombie minion will be utter shit, but still!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 12, 2009, 09:10:43 AM
FUN!  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on November 12, 2009, 09:36:52 AM
Holy crap I want the set bonuses on that Feral Druid set to be real!!! Probably won though. Why must they toy with me!!!!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on November 13, 2009, 11:17:50 AM
Hahahah, I love you Blizzard.

Bronjahm's sounds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQsM_4C9UfE) When played together the attack/wound sounds are fucking hilarious.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on November 13, 2009, 11:26:41 AM
Lol that thing is awesome.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 13, 2009, 12:39:53 PM
Hahahah, I love you Blizzard.

Bronjahm's sounds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQsM_4C9UfE) When played together the attack/wound sounds are fucking hilarious.
You forgot the music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3jSY5fIeDA


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 13, 2009, 12:49:08 PM
Out of curiosity, what are the general gears reqs needed for a 10 man?  I'd really like to do ICC 10 man.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 13, 2009, 01:00:19 PM
I had the opposite reaction to someone showing me that boss' sounds.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: sickrubik on November 13, 2009, 01:33:27 PM
It's okay to have flaws, Lantyssa.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on November 13, 2009, 03:24:00 PM
It's Blizzard. Between this and the Professor Futurama boss, I'll be surprised if the Arthas fight doesn't have a couple of rapping gnomes in tuxedos as adds while the boss runs around screaming Family Guy references.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 13, 2009, 03:52:24 PM
Out of curiosity, what are the general gears reqs needed for a 10 man?  I'd really like to do ICC 10 man.

Depends on who's running it, but if you're PUGing, most leaders on my server won't take you with less than 70% of your gear coming from the previous tier of gear (based on wowheroes gearscore.)  Which sounds awful until you realize you can easily do that through badges, VoA and a pickup raid every few weeks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 13, 2009, 04:40:07 PM
Out of curiosity, what are the general gears reqs needed for a 10 man?  I'd really like to do ICC 10 man.
I would say to have it easy as much ilvl232-245 or higher items as possible.  Good players can get by with less, bad PUGs and firestanders are going to need the high end combined with a few good players.  And yes, you can get most of that by chain running heroics for Emblems of Conquest and a 10-man Emblem of Triumph or few (you can get 21/week doing Ony-10\25 and TotC-10, which are all decently easy enough to get in and succeed at).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on November 13, 2009, 04:47:46 PM
Depends on who's running it, but if you're PUGing, most leaders on my server won't take you with less than 70% of your gear coming from the previous tier of gear (based on wowheroes gearscore.)  Which sounds awful until you realize you can easily do that through badges, VoA and a pickup raid every few weeks.

No, what sounds awful is using something as assinine as gearscore to judge your ability to perform in the raid. It proves nothing beyond your ability to successfully roll need on anything with a high ilevel your class can wear/wield. I could be geared over 9000 but the moment I have to be gearscore-approved to raid, I don't want to raid. Not that I PuG anyway.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 13, 2009, 04:52:55 PM
Don't forget the daily heroic quest.  2 Triumph emblems a day, bringing your total to 35 badges a week.   The 10-man TotC pieces (Conqueror's set)  cost 50 for 3 pieces (Chest, Helm, Legs) and 30 for the other two, with Gloves and Legs dropping from VoA.

I really can't stress abusing VOA pugs enough when gearing-up. Quick and simple fights that drop nice loot.

Depends on who's running it, but if you're PUGing, most leaders on my server won't take you with less than 70% of your gear coming from the previous tier of gear (based on wowheroes gearscore.)  Which sounds awful until you realize you can easily do that through badges, VoA and a pickup raid every few weeks.

No, what sounds awful is using something as assinine as gearscore to judge your ability to perform in the raid. It proves nothing beyond your ability to successfully roll need on anything with a high ilevel your class can wear/wield. I could be geared over 9000 but the moment I have to be gearscore-approved to raid, I don't want to raid. Not that I PuG anyway.

Yes, horrible players can have great gear.  I've heard the argument enough and seen the proofs firsthand.  I didn't say I agreed with the practice only that it's the metric used.  You don't want it used against you then don't pug. /shrug.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 13, 2009, 04:54:42 PM
No, what sounds awful is using something as assinine as gearscore to judge your ability to perform in the raid. It proves nothing beyond your ability to successfully roll need on anything with a high ilevel your class can wear/wield.
Technically you can't exactly just roll need on gear and be successful, because if you suck most raid leaders won't put up with your shit and kick you before the gear drops.  And most raid leaders (PUG and guild) limit how many purples someone can get to be fair to others.

I hate having to look at gear scores and being judged solely on the number, but they are helpful to find out what people are bringing to the raid.  If someone wants to go in all quest greens and blues, that's going to be a difficult thing to do for lesser skilled players and groups.  It doesn't reflect on their skill so much as low hit points, low mana, and low damage or healing output in times when it is needed.  And if someone has decent gear but is too lazy to enchant any of it or gem it at all, that also shows that they aren't exactly serious about preparing for the content and you might end up having some AFker or absent-minded player taking up a slot that could be better occupied by someone actually getting the job done.  No one likes to go into a raid and wipe over and over because 1-2 players just can't get it together.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on November 15, 2009, 03:53:07 AM
It's Blizzard. Between this and the Professor Futurama boss, I'll be surprised if the Arthas fight doesn't have a couple of rapping gnomes in tuxedos as adds while the boss runs around screaming Family Guy references.

Lol that made me laugh way to hard.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Numtini on November 15, 2009, 09:04:50 AM

Quote
No, what sounds awful is using something as assinine as gearscore to judge your ability to perform in the raid. It proves nothing beyond your ability to successfully roll need on anything with a high ilevel your class can wear/wield. I could be geared over 9000 but the moment I have to be gearscore-approved to raid, I don't want to raid. Not that I PuG anyway.

I'd have to disagree. WoW is so heavily about gear it's not even funny. Gearscores may not be perfect, but they're a good hint about what a characters potential is. A bad player won't live up to that potential, but it forms a ceiling on a good player that you just can't get around.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 15, 2009, 09:19:13 AM
A bad player won't live up to that potential, but it forms a ceiling on a good player that you just can't get around.
Especially on the higher end content (beyond Naxx and the latter part of Ulduar) where many of the boss fights end up being DPS races to beat some timer before the boss enrages and wipes the raid or spawns so many adds it overwhelms the off-tank and healers.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on November 16, 2009, 04:20:22 AM
Hahahah, I love you Blizzard.

Bronjahm's sounds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQsM_4C9UfE) When played together the attack/wound sounds are fucking hilarious.



Is that Metzen?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on November 16, 2009, 11:17:25 AM
Depends on who's running it, but if you're PUGing, most leaders on my server won't take you with less than 70% of your gear coming from the previous tier of gear (based on wowheroes gearscore.)  Which sounds awful until you realize you can easily do that through badges, VoA and a pickup raid every few weeks.

No, what sounds awful is using something as assinine as gearscore to judge your ability to perform in the raid. It proves nothing beyond your ability to successfully roll need on anything with a high ilevel your class can wear/wield. I could be geared over 9000 but the moment I have to be gearscore-approved to raid, I don't want to raid. Not that I PuG anyway.

To be fair its just formalizing with some number what we basically do ourselves in our own raids - we typically don't take people to Ulduar until they have mostly Naxx gear, etc. I think where the problem comes in with a lot of PUGs is that they set the number at a stupid level (in order to raid Naxx, you must have Uld 25 gear!) But without looking at gear or achievements (or even with, but at least its *something* to look at), its really hard to guess if someone is going to cause everyone problems, and there are a couple spots where one or two bad players can really ruin it for everyone, say if they keep blowing people up on XT, or if your priests completely fail at Razuvious 25 (I've seen that kill more Naxx PUGs than all other fights combined) or whatever.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on November 16, 2009, 12:16:48 PM
The Night Elf Mohawk grenade is here. (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/faq/mohawkgrenade.xml) 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 16, 2009, 12:21:52 PM
I seriously  :heart: those commercials.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Demetra on November 16, 2009, 12:36:20 PM
The Night Elf Mohawk grenade is here. (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/faq/mohawkgrenade.xml) 

That has to be a spoof. 

I hope.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 16, 2009, 02:56:19 PM
Not at all.  It's the top news item on the WoW site.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on November 16, 2009, 03:07:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98uDkyzVvSc


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on November 16, 2009, 03:26:57 PM
Did I mention seeing a texture labelled Mr_T during the Halloween mask thing in the Cataclysm thread?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 16, 2009, 03:41:54 PM
You can toss them while still mounted. Drive by Mohawking!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 18, 2009, 01:38:08 PM
Shadowmourne - Legendary Preview (http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/shadowmourne-legendary-weapon-preview/)

Sounds like an Epic Weapon quest instead of "Collect x number of shards."  I prefer this method, whereas previously you'd discover your person with the most shards either quit or was not there for a few raids and missed enough that you had 30 shards in the guild.. on 5 people.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on November 18, 2009, 01:58:54 PM
Shadowmourne - Legendary Preview (http://www.mmo-champion.com/news-2/shadowmourne-legendary-weapon-preview/)

Sounds like an Epic Weapon quest instead of "Collect x number of shards."  I prefer this method, whereas previously you'd discover your person with the most shards either quit or was not there for a few raids and missed enough that you had 30 shards in the guild.. on 5 people.   :awesome_for_real:

Wowhead had some of the quests up there, but I think they were taken down.  You needed to kill 1000 Scourge while in ICC and collect shards from the FT that were found on them...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on November 18, 2009, 02:49:42 PM
Not a single correctly itemized piece of loot on Holy Paladin T10!   :awesome_for_real:  Rest of it is all crit/mp5!

I hope shamans enjoy sharing loot with paladins yet again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on November 18, 2009, 02:53:53 PM
Not a single correctly itemized piece of loot on Holy Paladin T10!   :awesome_for_real:  Rest of it is all crit/mp5!

I hope shamans enjoy sharing loot with paladins yet again.
The only reason I wear as much mail as I do is I know the casters would mount my head on a spike if I started stealing hitless cloth.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on November 18, 2009, 03:11:19 PM
Emblem gear isn't bad. There's finally some worthy Enhance pieces.

For my main I'm really scratching my head trying to see if the bonuses will be useful or just too random. Priest T10 is odd.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 22, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Turkey World Event:


Bad: Fuck the kill 40 turkey achievement.

Good: Woo cooking to 300 for everyone!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on November 22, 2009, 08:29:56 PM
Turkey World Event:


Bad: Fuck the kill 40 turkey achievement.

Good: Woo cooking to 300 for everyone!
Just wait a few days for all the crazies to get the 40 turkey achievement, then grab it easily at some off-peak time.

Really, trying to do an achievement like that on opening day is madness.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 22, 2009, 09:03:28 PM
I've already done it twice  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on November 22, 2009, 09:59:25 PM
Tracker Snacks!

And yeah, it was actually fairly easy to get the 40 turkeys achievement today.

It was far more irritating to have to run to every horde capital multiple times for the dailies.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 23, 2009, 08:05:17 PM
All of my alts have 300 cooking now, best Holiday ever!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 23, 2009, 08:25:33 PM
Just wait a few days for all the crazies to get the 40 turkey achievement, then grab it easily at some off-peak time.
Not everyone has the schedule to allow them to pick when they can do it.

Shitty achievement.  I got interrupted during so many attempts.  By the time I got it, it wasn't a celebration but a tear-streaked triumph to my stupidity for wanting a little turkey pet.

Whomever designed it needs to be kicked.  All you need is one person to interrupt a string of forty kills, and you're placed in a situation where everyone is interrupting everyone else so it just snowballs.  Stupid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 23, 2009, 09:51:48 PM
Shitty achievement.  I got interrupted during so many attempts.  By the time I got it, it wasn't a celebration but a tear-streaked triumph to my stupidity for wanting a little turkey pet.
I almost got to 20 once.  It's been so damn frustrating I am taking time off from it for a day or 2.  Every other achievement for that is done but killing turkeys.  Seriously, someone needs to be kicked in the balls over such a horrid achievement.  It's not as bad as "for the children" and the PvP exercises involved, but it is still frustratingly angry.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on November 24, 2009, 03:36:08 AM
It *is* horribly stupid, but I lucked into it the first day just running up and down the path between the two farms in Elwynn.  Enough folks were killing turkeys they were nearly insta-spawning and they're pretty tightly concentrated around there.    Does everyone get the buff if you're grouped together? The holiday is about 'sharing' so I'd hope it does, and you could reduce some of the frustration by grouping up.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 24, 2009, 04:07:10 AM
I hate it that they always put a totally inane or stupid Achivement into festivities that just makes it a pain in the Ass to finish the meta. Like having to rely on the random number generator (Hallows End Masks before they got removed from the meta, too many Valentines day achivements to count), need to PVP for (I won't touch PVP with a ten foot pole) or things like "Use this thing on a certain kind of class/race combo.

Getting the rose petals for the valentines day achivement on a female dwarf or troll was stupid.

Here they have done something similar Kill a rogue of every race? Come on? Don't you guys have statistics on that sort of thing?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on November 24, 2009, 04:18:07 AM
You don't need to kill rogues, just tag them with the turkey shooter item [that you get by doing dailies].

I got 40 turkeys on the 2nd try, on a mid-population server (admittedly during off-peak times, this is probably one of the only advantages of being an European on a US server). I started from the northeast corner of elwynn and went south to the lumber camp, then did a slight loop-back along the river to the north, then west to the jangolode mine, then south again. Nobody else was in the area, and tracker snacks made it easy... still, the respawn rate could use a buff.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Oban on November 24, 2009, 06:58:55 AM
Outside Undercity, to the West of the city and South of Coldhearth Manor there is a huge area with wild turkeys roaming about.  One try with the tracker snacks buff was all it took for me to hit 40.

As for the dwarf rogue, I almost gave up after waiting for thirty minutes in Dalaran and went to Ironforge to find one.

Probably one of the easiest world events ever.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on November 24, 2009, 08:29:21 AM
People were specifically making lvl 1 <race> rogues for that achievement on our server.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Signe on November 24, 2009, 08:58:17 AM
I logged in this morning before nine (Earthen Ring) and there was no one around doing the quests.  This event, however, has already sucked the life out of me and I have no urge to do it with my any of my alts.  Cooking is easy enough to level anyway, thankfully. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 24, 2009, 09:43:47 AM
Does everyone get the buff if you're grouped together? The holiday is about 'sharing' so I'd hope it does, and you could reduce some of the frustration by grouping up.
Grouping does NOT work.  Yet another stupid thing about it.

Outside Undercity, to the West of the city and South of Coldhearth Manor there is a huge area with wild turkeys roaming about.  One try with the tracker snacks buff was all it took for me to hit 40.
I tried many areas, and did use tracker snacks.  When I finally got the achievement I had killed 160-170 turkeys.  (That isn't counting the ~60 on my Undead who had just as much luck.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on November 24, 2009, 09:52:18 AM
I had no luck during just off prime this weekend, but I logged in really early one morning and got it easily.  I suppose by some definitions that's poopsocking, but if waking up early is a pathology, then I guess I'm sick.

Grouping should work though, withing a certain range. That's kind of weak.

I found every kind of rogue within about 30 minutes of poking around Dalaran.  I did get a few of the enemy ones lurking near the tables at Thunder Bluff, though, just for the fun.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on November 24, 2009, 12:51:13 PM
The rogue achievement has been pretty easy.  I only need an Orc, and that's because I was out of turkey shot.  Some in Dalaran, some just wandering about my questing, and a few from sitting outside the Undercity watching traffic come and go.  (An enemy by the gates of their capital always makes people stop.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 24, 2009, 10:41:55 PM
The rogues were easy, alliance parked a gnome and dwarf right next to each other within an hour of the quests going live and I got those then.  Then a human and NE were easy.  The troll rogue proved to be elusive until today, but that was simple enough when people are advertising themselves as available for shooting.

The 40 turkeys has me still seeing red.  30 turkeys tonight and I ran into a draenai warrior farming turkeys in Tirisfal.  He had killed the last few in the area and before any could respawn the buff wore out.  I will put this off for another day or two and get up at 4AM or something stupid just to get it =P


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 25, 2009, 05:37:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_mlqfODJKY&feature=player_embedded


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on November 25, 2009, 07:46:55 AM
To get my last (gnome) rogue I actually just did a "/who gnome Dalaran" and started /targeting the rogues in the results until I found one in range. I never actually got a visual on the one I targeted - I could not find him despite running all over looking.

Incidentally - if anyone is in dire need of a certain race, post or PM me and I don't mind making a level 1 on someone's (US) server in the late evening EST.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Xanthippe on November 27, 2009, 04:54:51 PM
The 40 turkeys has me still seeing red.  30 turkeys tonight and I ran into a draenai warrior farming turkeys in Tirisfal.  He had killed the last few in the area and before any could respawn the buff wore out.  I will put this off for another day or two and get up at 4AM or something stupid just to get it =P

I had no trouble getting those at all - I was between UC and Western Plaguelands, which is a good spot because the turkeys have yellow names so they all stand out.  Way better than trying to find them in Elwynn.  (I'm alliance).

But that spot can only handle one person at a time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on November 27, 2009, 09:22:42 PM
I had no trouble getting those at all - I was between UC and Western Plaguelands, which is a good spot because the turkeys have yellow names so they all stand out.  Way better than trying to find them in Elwynn.  (I'm alliance).

But that spot can only handle one person at a time.
Exactly.  I got all of it done in Venomweb vale during prime time and no one was around.  I could have gone to Elwynn, as no one was out there trying to do it this afternoon.  It was still an annoying achievement ;-)

At least no one was camping the chairs in the Alliance capitals today though.  The Horde side on my server was all about denying the allies their seats at the table and had people camping out at UC for hours.  Ridiculous I thought.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: raydeen on November 28, 2009, 01:32:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_mlqfODJKY&feature=player_embedded

Ok, how the hell do I get one of those? I must have a butt-skooching pet.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on November 28, 2009, 02:19:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_mlqfODJKY&feature=player_embedded

Ok, how the hell do I get one of those? I must have a butt-skooching pet.
I believe the way you do it is use the new cross server lfg tool to group with random people.  Group with 100 random people and complete a dungeon and you get your pet.  Not sure if grouping with 4 random people for 1 dungeon counts as 1 point or 4 points towards your Pet though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on November 28, 2009, 06:13:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_mlqfODJKY&feature=player_embedded

Ok, how the hell do I get one of those? I must have a butt-skooching pet.
I believe the way you do it is use the new cross server lfg tool to group with random people.  Group with 100 random people and complete a dungeon and you get your pet.  Not sure if grouping with 4 random people for 1 dungeon counts as 1 point or 4 points towards your Pet though.

I think it does. In this way it rewards people who truly pug rather than getting 4 people in a group and adding one random member.

Also, "the Patient" title comes with this I think.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on November 29, 2009, 11:00:15 AM
So did anyone get the free 7 day reactivation time?  I got mine, went to redeem it and got a 404 error.  Bah-humbug.

Edit:  It worked in Chrome.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on November 30, 2009, 12:00:48 PM
At least no one was camping the chairs in the Alliance capitals today though.  The Horde side on my server was all about denying the allies their seats at the table and had people camping out at UC for hours.  Ridiculous I thought.

Scilla was totally different.  Saw several Hordies killed while I was doing the dailies (yay thank you for an easy way to 350+ cooking skill), but I had no trouble at the Horde tables.  I even sat & ate for the "spirit of sharing" buff at the tauren & blood elf tables, in both cases while the enemy was present and refusing to do anything other than taunt. 

Perhaps nobody was willing to get between a mug-wielding dwarf and his plate of food?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: raydeen on December 03, 2009, 05:54:27 AM
Pick up yer awesome Three Worgen Moon shirts now! Night Elf chix will think yer hawt liek Twilight!!  :awesome_for_real:

http://www.jinx.com/world_of_warcraft/men/three_worgen_moon.html?catid=40&cs=2&csd=40 (http://www.jinx.com/world_of_warcraft/men/three_worgen_moon.html?catid=40&cs=2&csd=40)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morfiend on December 03, 2009, 08:19:36 AM
Pick up yer awesome Three Worgen Moon shirts now! Night Elf chix will think yer hawt liek Twilight!!  :awesome_for_real:

http://www.jinx.com/world_of_warcraft/men/three_worgen_moon.html?catid=40&cs=2&csd=40 (http://www.jinx.com/world_of_warcraft/men/three_worgen_moon.html?catid=40&cs=2&csd=40)

The face that the t-shirt model is making is horrifying.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on December 03, 2009, 09:30:31 AM
So are the user submissions

(http://www.jinx.com/Content/Member/f3675bcb14f349afbf41f.jpg)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 03, 2009, 09:50:24 AM
3.3 reported to be ready to drop next Tuesday (Dec 8).   :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 03, 2009, 03:14:09 PM
Sweeeeet. I don't even care about Icecrown, no way my guild is gonna be able to do that. I just to scrape together emblems of frost from the daily to buy some really awesome shit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 03, 2009, 04:08:57 PM
Sweeeeet. I don't even care about Icecrown, no way my guild is gonna be able to do that. I just to scrape together emblems of frost from the daily to buy some really awesome shit.

Yeah, I haven't logged for about 2 weeks waiting for this. I've already gotten all the conquest and triumph crap.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 03, 2009, 04:26:47 PM
The flood of people returning asking for raid spots is setting my rage levels to genocide.

 :angryfist:

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that ICC is supposed to hit next week.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 03, 2009, 05:35:13 PM
The flood of people returning asking for raid spots is setting my rage levels to genocide.

 :angryfist:

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that ICC is supposed to hit next week.

Are they returning after being gone like a month? Or like 5 months? Did you have previous things on farm for a while?

I mean, I'm used to having raiders bail out in the last month when an expected patch is coming down the line to take an extended break. I do it quite often myself. The slackasses who left after Naxx and haven't shown up until Icecrown though....


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 04, 2009, 08:29:53 AM
3.3 reported to be ready to drop next Tuesday (Dec 8).   :ye_gods:

42 uncut epic gems prepped for raider rape.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 04, 2009, 08:38:53 AM
It's both.  I have one guy asking to tank ICC after having not shown up at all since Naxx, and another guy who habitually gets himself geared up, then stops playing til the next tier, and a handful of others who took a break because we had content on farm, and they were bored.

I've got some ideas on how to deal with the latter folks, and the first guy is simply SOL unless he's willing to really prove himself.

The main reason this really hurts is the former GM operated on a policy of "tight roster, everyone raids".  The problem with this is when ten people decide to go on break, you're sitting around with seventeen raiders wondering how to fill the holes.  Do I recruit eight people, and tell the ones who come back from break "too bad"?  Or do I PUG raiders til they come back, or...

Sometimes I really hate being GM.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 04, 2009, 09:45:54 AM
You run with who you got. If they disappear, you gets more. If they come back and the slots are filled...well, too bad. If not, then you gots again--but they'd better be reasonably up to speed on their own. 

My guild is a casual guild, so people come and go on a fairly regular basis. This is fundamental to the guild. It's not ideal, but we make progress. You just roll with it. However, douchebaggery isn't tolerated. Coming back after two content updates and expecting to jump into the latest and greatest? No. Not going to happen. If he's a tank, best inform him that having a dps set available will be a very good idea (hinthint--you aren't up to tanking any sort of ToGC so what makes you think anything past 5man ICC is in your immediate future?). If they can get geared up reasonably well in the early days of ICC, well, then they're golden. If not, they're warming the bench.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 04, 2009, 01:35:47 PM
It's both.  I have one guy asking to tank ICC after having not shown up at all since Naxx, and another guy who habitually gets himself geared up, then stops playing til the next tier, and a handful of others who took a break because we had content on farm, and they were bored.

I've got some ideas on how to deal with the latter folks, and the first guy is simply SOL unless he's willing to really prove himself.

The main reason this really hurts is the former GM operated on a policy of "tight roster, everyone raids".  The problem with this is when ten people decide to go on break, you're sitting around with seventeen raiders wondering how to fill the holes.  Do I recruit eight people, and tell the ones who come back from break "too bad"?  Or do I PUG raiders til they come back, or...

Sometimes I really hate being GM.

They didn't sound too concerned about your problems with filling the raid after you left.  So fuck em.  Let them camp raid spots like any other noob.  Any good experienced raider expects too anyway.  If they're threatening to quit if they can't jump right back in, honestly, you don't want them anyway.  Sometimes people's mighty e-rep precedes them.  But you have to be fair.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 04, 2009, 02:23:18 PM
The tank who comes back after nothing since Naxx is an idiot. He should know better, and if he doesn't he shouldn't be tanking in the first place. The guy who gears himself and immediately leaves should also be dumped as well. You basically just flush upgrades down the toilet if they never come back.

As for people getting bored with farming and leaving, I empathize. I really hate farming shit myself, and I'm one of the raid leaders. At some point, I look at where we are, how much gear we pulled out, how much stuff we still use, which bosses they are located on, and how much stuff is getting DE'd. If I feel like we are farming the place to get a few gear upgrades off the last 20% of the raid, and we have a pretty good idea that the next content update is a month away or less, I simply stop going to the run at that point.

Example: Are we running this over and over for 3-4 hours because people want weapon drops off Kel'Thuzad, while we shard the rest of the instance? If yes, I'm stopping. Are the only viable upgrades off Anub in TOC 25, and we've been sharding half of what he drops? Fuck that.

There is no reason to be a completionist in WoW these days when every new patch is a badge whoring reset button. The focus should be on the kills and the achievements rather than endlessly farming.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 04, 2009, 03:02:01 PM
3.3 reported to be ready to drop next Tuesday (Dec 8).   :ye_gods:

42 uncut epic gems prepped for raider rape.

Funny you should mention that.. I've got about 60k honor banked to avoid said raider rape.  10k per epic gem is  :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 04, 2009, 09:19:12 PM
Paelos brings up a point, but it overlooks one thing: weapons. Anub is one of only two sources (and by far the better) of 200dps weapons for shaman and combat rogues (and DW DKs, but they're morons so fuck 'em). Blizz consistantly screws these two subclasses over on weapon itemization. If your raid is lacking in dps and you have significant numbers of combat rogues or enhancement shaman, then you have to farm Anub to fix it. Have to. And, yeah, it sucks.

Otherwise, you're running with 178dps weapons (which are themselves annoying to come by). I don't even want to hear bitching about enhance dps if you're not willing to farm Anub. Furthermore, unless you have signficant offset T9 gear, you can't rely on Deathbringers (which Ony never drops in 25man...) since they'll kill your stats. Yes, I'm bitter over this. Yeah, giving rogues axes REALLY fixed weapons itemization for enhance. Ghostwalker can blow me.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 04, 2009, 09:36:52 PM
I like how in 10-man ToTC, 3 big ticket tank items drop from Anub. Chestpiece, weapon, shield. Good luck, tanks that need gear. I'm just lucky the loot gods are kind to me in 25-man TOTC.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 04, 2009, 11:04:23 PM
My beef with item drops is that my feral tank needs a new cape (still rolling with a naxx tanking cape) and the ONLY place to get an upgrade is either 25 man Ulduar (which no one ever runs any more) or 25 man ToC, which has such tight competiton for tank spots that getting my druid in there usually involves me going boomkin, and being unable to roll on the cape....

In all likelyhood, im going to have to wait for Icecrown, and just buy the badge cape.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 05, 2009, 08:21:12 AM
The worst itemization I've seen in TOC was boots and capes. The reality with weapons in 25 man was there are 13 weapons and OHs, and only 3 of those drop off the last boss. It was much better in my view than in previous situations like Saph and KT holding all the awesome.

Also Shrike, the Jaraxxus ax isn't that bad. It's not best in slot, but at a certain point it just doesn't matter for the next tier of content.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 05, 2009, 09:28:44 AM
It's fast. Can't use it. You'd be better off with the hammers from 5man ToC.

And, yeah, cloaks suck. I'd forgotten about this. I"m mostly in 245 gear (except weapons--fuck you very much, Ghostwalker), but still rocking a 219 cloak from 10man Uld. I don't recall where the 232/245/258 physical dps one drops from, but I think it's Jar. He just never drops it. I got lucky with boots, but at least there are LW patterns out there to make the 226 ones and they were close to BiS in Uld.

Cloaks and weapons? Yeah, good luck there. You'll need it--and I don't have it, evidently. Truthfully, the cloak thing doesn't bother me that much, or any individual armor slot. But weapons? Hell, that's the bulk of enhance dps, and the fucking things never drop! From the last boss, no less. It's the worst kind of bullshit. Rogue daggers and swords fall like rain from early bosses, but axes and maces? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. It's pure unadultered bullshit. Again, fuck you, Ghostwalker.

Now I feel better. Sorta.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 05, 2009, 02:20:18 PM
Cloaks are really strange.  I got the PvP one from VoA the first week it was out, and that's been hands down the *only* cloak I saw drop remotely close to it was last week in TotC-25 and the stats were almost identical to it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 05, 2009, 05:40:25 PM
Shrike needs a drink while he's raiding.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 05, 2009, 08:46:58 PM
Hell yeah.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 07, 2009, 04:39:49 PM
Confirmed for this coming reset.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 07, 2009, 05:47:34 PM
Getcha popcorn ready.

(http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/towens.jpg)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 07, 2009, 11:19:53 PM
 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 08, 2009, 12:08:25 AM
Confirmed for this coming reset.

Shrike is getting a drink this reset, and everyone is reaching for the popcorn?  What?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 08, 2009, 06:33:18 AM
I have begun the patching process.  Perhaps it will be done by the time I get home... ;-)

My new guild's GM is mandating everyone "serious" and "committed" to a 4 day a week raiding schedule as he wants all of the content cleared as soon as possible.  It's funny to watch the drama unfold.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Signe on December 08, 2009, 07:20:03 AM
It was done really fast.  Minutes.  Log in server is up, there isn't any message but the servers are all still down.  I saw patch notes but then they disappeared.  I'm sure there's nothing wrong and it'll all go very smoothly because they're, you know, pros.

And your new guilds GM doesn't sound like much of a fun guy.  I'm almost glad I dislike raiding so much now.  Most of these raiding guilds sound like they're run by a bunch of nazis.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on December 08, 2009, 08:05:59 AM
At first I thought it was weird that our GM never leads raids.  Now, I understand and agree completely.  I firmly believe Raids are something guilds can do, not who they are.  If Raids are the be all and end all of your guild, that way leads failure preceded by mucho guild drama.  You might get all your fancy pants and shirts to drop, but a month or two later you'll be wondering where it all went wrong!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 08, 2009, 08:25:07 AM
Most of these raiding guilds sound like they're run by a bunch of nazis.

Depends.  My first serious raid guild was run by a pretty nice guy.  The raid leaders were complete assholes and were eventually booted and replaced. My latest raid guild that I left when my son was born was run by a loot hungry, power crazed lunatics.  They were not pleasant people.

I've yet to see rational, calm, and competent. I'm sure it's out there but I don't have the time anymore to see.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on December 08, 2009, 08:29:01 AM
I've yet to see rational, calm, and competent. I'm sure it's out there but I don't have the time anymore to see.

I really don't think that the raiding endgame is designed for rational, calm, and competent personality types.  It's for alpha personalities with a serious case of achiever mentality.  Isn't that precisely why they want to raid those instances multiple times to begin with? 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on December 08, 2009, 08:29:41 AM
My new guild's GM is mandating everyone "serious" and "committed" to a 4 day a week raiding schedule as he wants all of the content cleared as soon as possible.  It's funny to watch the drama unfold.

At this point, I kindly remind your GM that WoW is a game that is meant for entertainment, and not work, and promptly /gquit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 08, 2009, 08:31:17 AM
What's going to be funny are the guilds that insist on raiding today even when the servers completely poop themselves and everyone is distracted by the shinies.   Ohh to be a fly on the wall..


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 08, 2009, 08:33:21 AM
I'd like to think I'm calm and rational, but then again, I did not seek the GM role.  It was forced on me.   :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 08, 2009, 11:31:59 AM
We finally learned our lesson and just canceled tonight.

EDIT: I like to think I'm rational calm and competent, but I can feel myself losing the first 2 as I improve at the 3rd.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 08, 2009, 12:48:30 PM
What's going to be funny are the guilds that insist on raiding today even when the servers completely poop themselves and everyone is distracted by the shinies.   Ohh to be a fly on the wall..
I told the guild we're hitting ToC tonight, and ICC tomorrow.  Mostly because of how god-awful Ulduar's release was.

I figure if the servers are broken enough that we can't raid ToC, no one will be terribly crushed by this.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 08, 2009, 02:39:17 PM
Not sure why I am even attmpting to log in at the moment.

Haven't even been able to get to the character select screen, I just keep getting a "you have been disconnected from the server" message and booted back to login.

Servers are probably being hammered like a 2 bit hooker right now....


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2009, 03:11:08 PM
What's going to be funny are the guilds that insist on raiding today even when the servers completely poop themselves and everyone is distracted by the shinies.   Ohh to be a fly on the wall..

I've long held the notion that my Guild Leader has NOTHING else going on in his life.  He gets irritable when the guild doesn't raid 5 times a week, even during this ToC cycle where three nights was stretching it.  He also logs in from shitty hotel connections to attempt to raid, rather than see the nightlife or even play some single player game on his laptop.  I'm fairly certain he's also single and has no motivation to find a significant other, despite being in his late 30's.

 Of course this means, even as we sit here unable to login or even find a stable server, the evening's raid has yet to be canceled.  If previous patches are any indication, it won't be canceled until 5 mins before raid time, or until we actually get in and the lag defeats us more often than the mobs.   It will be "epic."   :awesome_for_real:

Ed: Note that my server, Alleria, is so damn unstable that last night when they fired up the patch servers the lag spiked so high that the 10 man ToC my guild was running had a shaman take 50k damage without dying because the server wasn't registering it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: LK on December 08, 2009, 03:23:51 PM
He could have all the motivation in the world (like me) but if he lacks people skills (like me) then he's going to fall flat on his face and fail (like me).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2009, 03:29:59 PM
If you're motivated in that direction, sitting at home 5+ nights a week playing Warcraft isn't the best possible way of furthering that goal.  Going out and interacting with real live humans is.  It also has the side effect of fixing the people skills problem over time as well.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 08, 2009, 04:00:05 PM
I'd like to think I'm calm and rational, but then again, I did not seek the GM role.  It was forced on me.   :heartbreak:

This is pretty much how I feel about my raid leading. I'm very cool with people that try their best and show up, and I don't try to run off people who struggle in the meters. I usually suggest to them a person who I also know is a good player to give them some tips on how to gear their toon or improve their play. In every case, the players have made large improvements.

But then again, my raid is based on everyone playing just well enough to slowly clear the regular 25 mans. We don't even bother with heroic, as we're the kind of group that prefers openly drinking and making fun of each other on a raid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on December 08, 2009, 04:09:38 PM
This is pretty much how I feel about my raid leading. I'm very cool with people that try their best and show up, and I don't try to run off people who struggle in the meters.

I think I found one of many reasons why I will never enjoy raiding in an MMO again.  If the raid leader (aka the boss) is assessing my performance, in a game, how do I differentiate this from a second job?

I understand that you want everyone to pull their weight in a raid, but when programs exist to finger point at the underachievement of individuals then the "game" has gone beyond entertainment.


I don't mean to slight you as the GM Paelos.  It's the system that irks me.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2009, 04:19:52 PM
You're looking at it wrong. It's not about the underachievement of individuals, it's about making certain individuals are contributing to the team effort.   Team sports analog again.  Sometimes it's not about you.

It's like saying, "I'll never play in a competitive softball league again. They had the audacity to ask that I wear a glove and then bitched when I didn't catch that fly ball that was a foot in front of me while I was scoping out the ladies in the bleachers!"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 08, 2009, 04:20:30 PM
I dunno, is a measuring stick or a scale inherently evil? Damage meters just measure things. It is up to us what we do with the results of that measurement.

I use them for a few things, in our raids:

- I keep an eye on which people do well and which don't, so that on a given night I can make sure I have a couple of the good people to make up for the rest.
- There are several fights where you have to split up dps on 2 targets that have to die at the same time; the meters help me make that call on a given night so we don't have a screwup.
- I use them to measure my own performance and see where I can improve.
- I use them to help spot problems after wipes to see what changes we can make in strategy, role assignment, etc., on the second try.

It all boils down much more to a given group's approach to raiding than it does what tools are available.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on December 08, 2009, 04:28:36 PM
You're looking at it wrong. It's not about the underachievement of individuals, it's about making certain individuals are contributing to the team effort.   Team sports analog again.  Sometimes it's not about you.

It's all easy to say when "that person" isn't you.  What happens when it is? 

I was recruited as both a baseball and football player at a very competitive level.  When I play on work-related softball teams now, I don't monitor the performance of each individual on my team and comment on their ability to play.  I cheer them on for showing up and trying.  If we lose, then we lose.  It's not worth deflating the morale of someone that's trying just because they suck at a sport that I happen to excel at.   If they were to ask for my input to improve, then I'll do what I can.  In the meantime, I just applaud the fact that they aren't sitting in their living room. 

When you start looking at the performance of the individuals then you better also start asking yourself what your own motivation is.  I don't care how many errors our first baseman makes.  I care that they're having fun.  My days of all that competitive shit are long behind me. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 08, 2009, 04:36:46 PM
I care that they're having fun.

Making sure that people are having fun is important. Unfortunately one of the ways to guarantee that *nobody* has fun is to bring a lineup that is guaranteed to fail. People, generally, want to win, and have more fun when they do*. A raid leader, in most guilds, has to walk a fine line between just not ever taking the 'bad' players, and creating lineups that have a chance of success. For me it isn't that hard, as when things are going normally for us we have 13-15 signups for 10 spots. Everyone knows they have to sit some weeks, so I can pick and choose a lineup that will be OK, and as long as nobody sits 2 weeks in a row, people don't feel like they're being singled out for some kind of performance failure.

PUGs are an ugly case, because usually everyone is out for themselves, and there are certainly some guilds that take a PERFORMANCE IS EVERYTHING FEELINGS ARE NOTHING approach but I have my doubts that it is anything like a majority.

*Particularly talking about PVE here. It is a lot easier to have fun losing to other players than it is losing to an NPC.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 08, 2009, 04:37:41 PM
I tell people the same things about meters everytime they ask if I care about them. "There's always going to be someone at the top, someone at the bottom, and a bunch of people in the middle. What we need to know is that everyone is in the same ballpark, and nobody is chilling out in the parking lot." Then I threaten to add more cliches until they shut up.

The true fact is that many boss fights have enrage timers, and they come down to simple math. Either your raid is over X and you can win, or you are under X with everyone alive and you have absolutely no chance. I hate enrage timers personally, but ppl say we need them to make sure the dps is important or something. I think it's just shitty design. I remember when running out of mana used to be your enrage timer, but I guess we're long beyond that.

Also, Nebu having fun while losing only works if your team is on board with that mentality. What if half the people hated losing and you had four other people on the sidelines who were great players? It all depends on the kind of group you choose.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on December 08, 2009, 04:42:12 PM
I agree with both of your points.  I think that they encompass the reasons why I prefer solo play or play with people that I know are 100% on the same page.  I don't want to interfere with anyone's fun anymore than I want them to affect my own.  It just seems that raiding and loot bring out the absolute worst aspects of most people I encounter in gaming.  In many cases it's worse than the behavior I see in pvp.  

Sorry for the derail.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 08, 2009, 04:47:04 PM
There's no doubt about that. Even if you set the tone as a casual raid bent on fun and slow progress over mix/maxing, those bad-types will still try to get in and fuck with your plans because they believe they are good enough to get on a hardcore roster. The sad fact is that they aren't, but that doesn't stop them from making suggestions based on the way this other team does it, or making stinks about not having a loot system and that all the "bad" players are winning rolls, or in general just being a pain in the ass.

Now, if you're like me, you enjoy casually listening to them and prodding them with a stick to piss them off. They threaten to leave, and then never do. Then time for more poking!

It's like a game within a game.  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2009, 04:48:52 PM
Soling brings it out just as much.. or else you've never had a kill stolen before or encountered a high level farming an area for faction without concern for the folks trying to level up.   People are dicks to each other, and exponentially so when anonymity comes in to play.  Nothing new.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 08, 2009, 05:00:50 PM
Oh yeah, the drama over killstealing between solo players in WoW is just as thick as the raider drama.

Wait what?  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 08, 2009, 05:49:36 PM
I don't really know what's going on here.  The casual softball analogy was  :awesome_for_real:, though.

I just stopped by to say that I just tried the new LFG daily deal with the Emblems of Frost and the money, and the cross-server dude that appeared in our group of four instantaneously.  It's pretty fucking awesome.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 08, 2009, 06:20:41 PM
Yeah I signed up as DPS for a random heroic and was finished with Azjol-Nerub like fifteen minutes later. Thumbs up.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 08, 2009, 07:11:07 PM
Dungeon Finder was borked all night for me... but I was impressed with how quickly it put together a group before it crashed the dungeon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 08, 2009, 07:18:25 PM
Took me like 10 minutes to find my mage a group, was pretty cool until I disconnected because the other PC in the house was being manned by a retard.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on December 08, 2009, 08:30:55 PM
Ran around with my shaman, got a group fairly quickly (tanks and healers go quick, DPS takes awhile it seems).  PUG wasn't too bad at all (I was all but facerolling healing).  We did hit a glitch though about mid-way through the dungeon and the party got disbanded and all of us kicked out.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 08, 2009, 08:57:00 PM
Damn you all! I can't get a single dungeon to work, whatsoever. Ah patch day.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 08, 2009, 09:02:39 PM
Hah, yah. I did the random dungeon and it's just sitting here at loading.  I think I'll level the rogue.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 08, 2009, 09:06:10 PM
We're raiding and having such fun on learning new content ;-)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 08, 2009, 09:24:58 PM
Yea, so towards the end of the night the new instance server took a huge shit.  I think I heard its cry for help.  It was like, "Cough."  Splat.  Got to the part of the thing were Arthas is chasing you and it bugged.  So it's patch day.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 08, 2009, 09:54:46 PM
I'm not calm or rational, and I'm barely competent. :(

One thing to remember about raid leaders is that sometimes they wind up being the leader 'cause no one else will frickin' do it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 08, 2009, 10:17:49 PM
Did a random OK with little trouble at all.  Even got the wand for my warlock. 

It did an "instance not found" and wouldn't port us initially to the instance.  We ended up having to fly there but it worked just fine when we did.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 09, 2009, 01:01:11 AM
My server cluster must be fucked or something. I haven't gotten a dungeon once today. Just the instance loading screen of death. And i wasn't just playing at peak hours. I'm writing this at 4 am (1 am server) while I stare at the ToC loading screen bar not moving.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on December 09, 2009, 01:41:27 AM
Yeah, I logged in to get my daily 1h of playtime in before going to work (which is late night for my US guildmates, yay timezones!), and all instance servers were dead. We were able to do a (really laggy) Wintergrasp and do the Zul'drak arena on our alts, but that was about it.

... it's patch day, I think we should be glad we were able to log in at all!  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 09, 2009, 01:59:33 AM
EU servers are still down, patched and waiting. You never know, all you 'mericans testing it out for us might mean our servers come up and work fine...... hahahahha who am I kidding  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 09, 2009, 04:16:18 AM
Servers came up at 10.20am, no problems whatsoever! Instances working fine, no lag, everything smooth as silk  :awesome_for_real:

Done 2 random dungeon groups, got into groups in under 5 mins (as DPS) each time, fantastic.  :heart:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on December 09, 2009, 05:41:01 AM
Patched during lunch yesterday and launched the game with no issues (no servers, but it launched.)  Came home late last night from a work function at 12:30 a.m. and couldn't get the game to start up at all even after a reboot.  Figured patch day didn't go so well.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 09, 2009, 06:24:04 AM
The new instances are cool. 1-shot our way through them on heroic, but had fun.

Discovered that you can get up the bugged ramp to the airship if you have a priest for levitate.

We got 3 hilts off the trash as we went through the three instances; 1 in the first, none in the second, 2 in the last.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 09, 2009, 07:31:31 AM
I had a quick question.

I only got to play a little bit last night on my young level 22 rogue.  I was mostly playing around with addons.

I clicked on the dungeon finder, checked off DPS, and hit "Find a Group".  I didn't get any feedback from the game saying "Ok Looking!"  It really confused me.  It was like I was clicking a broken button.

Then I unchecked the dps box and went to get into a battlegroup and it was saying I couldn't join while in a LFG queue.

I was confused.  Someone help me please.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 09, 2009, 08:04:01 AM
The magic eightball says "mod incompatibility, rename your interface folder and try again."


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on December 09, 2009, 08:06:24 AM
Between the fishing and cook dailies, the fact that the daily BG awards Arena Points, Wintergrasp, and the new functionality of the LFG system, I see Blizzard has managed to make my limited playtime full!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: fuser on December 09, 2009, 08:07:11 AM
I'm on a low pop alliance server and the new LFG really has saved my subscription. Some issues;

The cross realm trading breaks Udaman's secret room (staff/medallion) unless everyone ignores the box and the person who loots the staff off the miniboss gets the box with the medallion.

If the random dungeon loot bag is suppose to be random loot its really broken. After 6 sucessful pugs last night every bag always a pair of shoulders with like maybe ~3stats shuffled around (except for one type which was a reduction of -6 but +20 AP).

If they send me to Maraudon (orange) one more time I'm going to shoot myself. It's the worst dungeon ever for trash clearing and getting sent there in a group of 41-43's when mobs are 45+ is very very cruel. At least for a successful random loot bag they consider Razorlash the dungeon success and I drop group every time as newbs seem to want to complete the whole dungeon which would take at least an hour or two.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 09, 2009, 08:09:52 AM
The magic eightball says "mod incompatibility, rename your interface folder and try again."

Sound advice.  I'll try later tonight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 09, 2009, 08:18:33 AM
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me if you need to clear those new heroics for the loot, you won't be able to.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on December 09, 2009, 08:44:49 AM
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me if you need to clear those new heroics for the loot, you won't be able to.

I thought that the new 5 man heroics were just that, 5 man heroics meant to help the new level 80s acquire gear before moving onto the 10 and 25 man raids.  Have we reached a point where  you need to have completed the ToGC to get into the 5 man heroic dungeons?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 09, 2009, 09:05:53 AM
I'm in a mix of 232 and 245 loot going in as a priest healer and I found some of the fights pretty fierce to heal; although in hindsight, a lot of the damage will be avoidable once you know how it works. It's probably comparable to ToC5 hc in terms of difficulty


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 09, 2009, 09:10:38 AM
I thought that the new 5 man heroics were just that, 5 man heroics meant to help the new level 80s acquire gear before moving onto the 10 and 25 man raids.  Have we reached a point where  you need to have completed the ToGC to get into the 5 man heroic dungeons?

No, but you probably should've done H ToC or the other harder Heroic 5-Mans before then.

There was some QQ on the boards about Cross-Server LFG having a lenient gear check.  People in leveling blues/green complaining that it won't let them run H ToC.  (You still can, you just have to make the group yourself, it will not automatically put you in a group with people from other realms)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on December 09, 2009, 09:13:32 AM
Well I've done HToC before.  I will just queue up and see what happens, I guess.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 09, 2009, 09:37:41 AM
Skipped last night, due to usual patch day follies. Might skip tonight as well. No tolerance for quirky servers and Borderlands is calling for one more night at least.

I'm too lazy to look; how's the addon situation? Usually it's a mess after a major patch. Another reason to wait another day to jump into ICC.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 09, 2009, 09:57:21 AM
I went in with a fully 245 geared out group, and was bored quite a bit of the time.  The mobs have quite a bit more health than normal heroics, and even with three dps putting out 4.5k dps or more, clearing all three instances took well over an hour.  For maybe seven bosses all told.

The final instance is utterly ludicrous.  It consists of waves of mobs, followed by a boss, then more waves of mobs, followed by another boss.  All of them do 4k+ damage, and you have to deal with 4+ of them per wave.  Hope your tank is really good on AE threat, or your healer will simply vaporize.

We managed all three instances with only one wipe, but still.  All I can say is good luck finding enough healers that can push 3k hps, in a heroic, in order to gear people up.

In my opinion, you'll probably be able to carry one person.  So long as you have a geared tank, a geared healer, and two geared dps.  And you'll be questioning why you're killing trash, some of which has upwards of 200k+ hps, just for a shot at having a boss drop a 232 item that might be an upgrade.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 09, 2009, 09:58:08 AM
I enabled out-of-date addons, then found that my x-perl settings were all reset. When I clicked the settings button, hard crash to desktop.

I suppose I'll wait on the updated x-perl.  Titan bar seemed to work ok though!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on December 09, 2009, 10:12:03 AM
I played around with the instapug feature, and it's pretty good. Plus you get to meet interesting cross-server people and kill themdefeat them in furious epeen battles on the damage meter (not me, I play tank and healer).  :why_so_serious:

edit: xperl is sorta borkt for me too, but the alpha version on wowace at least works without crashing, most of the time...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 09, 2009, 10:49:21 AM
The new heroics are supposed to be harder than heroic toc...what were you expecting? Honestly some people think just entering a dungeon they should get loot.  Using consumables for a 5man? unheard of! Bosses you might not be able to one-shot without even knowing their mechanics? Obscene! An hour to complete three dungeons? Ludicrous!

whiny. bitches.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 09, 2009, 10:53:59 AM
I haven't done heroic of the new five mans (we went on a fact-finding mission in the regular version). We didn't get to finish the third one 'cause our instance server threw up all over the place. We had a couple of moments where people didn't realise WHAT IS KILLING US OH GOD but on the whole it was pretty fun and not too hard. If people are all OH GOD MY GEAR IS SHIT, I don't think it's crazy to expect them to do the normal version of that and ToC a few times first. :P


EDIT: Also, complaining it took an hour to clear all three heroic dungeons is sort of odd.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 09, 2009, 11:02:10 AM
EDIT: Also, complaining it took an hour to clear all three heroic dungeons is sort of odd.

No, no.... well OVER an hour!!  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 09, 2009, 11:05:10 AM
So, does this patch mean I can kill QH off?  Is that nifty map shit all WoW's work?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 09, 2009, 11:24:13 AM
So, does this patch mean I can kill QH off?  Is that nifty map shit all WoW's work?

It appears to be, yeah.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 09, 2009, 11:25:06 AM
So, does this patch mean I can kill QH off?  Is that nifty map shit all WoW's work?

It does.  I was pleasantly surprised by the map and quest log.  There are even dungeon maps now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 09, 2009, 11:43:18 AM
You should be able to easily do the regular 5man Icecrowns on normal with blues/greens.  I mean easily.  I guess you need to not be retarded.  I did it last night in a blue PvP set on my fresh new hunter, who was still using the heritage bow and boasting a whopping 2k DPS.  Also, I'm only barely not retarded on a Hunter.  That will get you ilvl 219 gear, which will be plenty, I assume not having done it, for heroic Icecrown 5man.

Also for the guy complaining about an hour clear and too much trash.  Dude I hate all trash.  But this is not too much trash.  You're just a pussy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 09, 2009, 11:46:23 AM
You should be able to easily do the regular 5man Icecrowns on normal with blues/greens.  I mean easily.  I guess you need to not be retarded.  I did it last night in a blue PvP set on my fresh new hunter, who was still using the heritage bow and boasting a whopping 2k DPS.  Also, I'm only barely not retarded on a Hunter.  That will get you ilvl 219 gear, which will be plenty, I assume not having done it, for heroic Icecrown 5man.

Also for the guy complaining about an hour clear and too much trash.  Dude I hate all trash.  But this is not too much trash.  You're just a pussy.

You're overstating it. There are spots on normal that will not be 'easy' for people in blue/green gear, especially if those people are the tank or healer. You could say that it would be easy to get carried through in blue/green gear as a non-tank/healer if the tank/healer are geared to a reasonable level, certainly, but these instances on normal are in the same difficulty zone as ToC on heroic, which can still cause problems for a fair amount of people.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on December 09, 2009, 11:46:59 AM
That attitude is getting worse it seems, and GS doesn't help any at all.  I logged on last night to do the fishing, cooking, and BG dailies, and people were spamming for Forge groups but you had to have a 5k GS and knowledge of the fights to participate.  As I said, I will put myself into the queue and fdo whatever dungeon pops, and if some random person griped about GS, I'll kindly remind him why I am there in the first place.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 09, 2009, 11:51:57 AM
You should be able to easily do the regular 5man Icecrowns on normal with blues/greens.  I mean easily.  I guess you need to not be retarded.  I did it last night in a blue PvP set on my fresh new hunter, who was still using the heritage bow and boasting a whopping 2k DPS.  Also, I'm only barely not retarded on a Hunter.  That will get you ilvl 219 gear, which will be plenty, I assume not having done it, for heroic Icecrown 5man.

Also for the guy complaining about an hour clear and too much trash.  Dude I hate all trash.  But this is not too much trash.  You're just a pussy.

You're overstating it. There are spots on normal that will not be 'easy' for people in blue/green gear, especially if those people are the tank or healer. You could say that it would be easy to get carried through in blue/green gear as a non-tank/healer if the tank/healer are geared to a reasonable level, certainly, but these instances on normal are in the same difficulty zone as ToC on heroic, which can still cause problems for a fair amount of people.

Maybe.  But after one go through without even killing the boss thanks to a bug, I got two drops and upped my DPS to a somewhat respectable 3K.  So you may have a hardish time the first go through.  But it is still a pug after all.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 09, 2009, 11:59:11 AM
I'm running out of time on Mal'Ganis with my trial RAF account.  I got my new main up to 22 with it, but I think I can eke out 3 more levels before RAF goes byebye.

Damn trial accounts keep get pushed to the end of the queue line.  Oh wellz.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Montague on December 09, 2009, 12:08:56 PM
Alright so my wife talked me into reupping my WoW account, but its been several months so I'm a bit out of the loop. I have a mix of Naxx and heroic gear - is there 5 mans for me to do, or do I go back to Naxx to gear up?

Also can anybody give me the 411 on PVE Ret paladining, anything change much from 3.0?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on December 09, 2009, 12:26:41 PM
You've got your choice of running random heroic 5-mans for mostly triumph badges with some bonus frost badges, or the new 5-mans which drop Uld 10 gear on regular and even better stuff on heroic.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: jakonovski on December 09, 2009, 12:34:49 PM
Great, 3.3 runs unplayably slowly on my 3.2GHz Phenom II x4, Radeon HD4890. I guess I'm not coming back after all.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 09, 2009, 12:37:37 PM
I've cleared H Gundrak in 11 minutes.  I think the longest it takes, for a four boss instance, is maybe 20 minutes, and that's one with stupid slow-you-down mechanics like HoL or UP.  I think being annoyed about a two boss dungeon taking 20 minutes is warranted.

I'll be waiting to watch your tears when you hit HHoR though.  I hope you enjoy wiping!  (Bring CC, an AE healer, and a damn sharp tank.  Or don't even bother.  Oh, and be prepared to cleanse a multitude of debuffs, deal with silences, fears, etc.)

It will be delicious.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 09, 2009, 12:56:10 PM
I'm pretty sure they have an entire forum for random dick waving over on the official site.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 09, 2009, 01:03:50 PM


I'll be waiting to watch your tears when you hit HHoR though.  I hope you enjoy wiping!  (Bring CC, an AE healer, and a damn sharp tank.  Or don't even bother.  Oh, and be prepared to cleanse a multitude of debuffs, deal with silences, fears, etc.)

Gonna be a long wait.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 09, 2009, 01:05:41 PM
Heh, first heroic random yesterday: OK.  Heroic random today: Occ.  SOMEONE LOVES ME.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: jakonovski on December 09, 2009, 01:07:34 PM
All the tough guys are gonna beat the HHoR?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morfiend on December 09, 2009, 01:09:38 PM
You should be able to easily do the regular 5man Icecrowns on normal with blues/greens.  I mean easily.  I guess you need to not be retarded.  I did it last night in a blue PvP set on my fresh new hunter, who was still using the heritage bow and boasting a whopping 2k DPS.  Also, I'm only barely not retarded on a Hunter.  That will get you ilvl 219 gear, which will be plenty, I assume not having done it, for heroic Icecrown 5man.

Also for the guy complaining about an hour clear and too much trash.  Dude I hate all trash.  But this is not too much trash.  You're just a pussy.

I'm sorry but HoR on normal will destroy pugs of people in greens and blues. That last segment is brutal. My group is pretty decently geared and on vent, and it got dicey for a second there. Now Im not saying this is Vaelstraz or anything, but if the whole group is in greens and blues, its going to be REALLY hard to clear HoR.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: fuser on December 09, 2009, 01:15:45 PM
Can you look for VoA raid cross realm if you don't hold Wintergrasp?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 09, 2009, 01:16:14 PM
No cross realm for raids currently, just 5 mans.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 09, 2009, 01:18:07 PM
I'm pretty sure they have an entire forum for random dick waving over on the official site.  :oh_i_see:
I'm pretty sure there's a place for people who've quit the game to whine at people who still play.

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 09, 2009, 01:19:08 PM
Great, 3.3 runs unplayably slowly on my 3.2GHz Phenom II x4, Radeon HD4890. I guess I'm not coming back after all.

That's all you.  Corei750 and same card.  No issues.  The lowest I get is 60fps in Dalaran.  Much higher everywhere else.

Our big issue in HHOR was one of the DPS thought he was a big dick and went to hit Arthas.  Dead as a doornail, so we had to four man the rest of the gauntlet.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 09, 2009, 01:20:31 PM
You should be able to easily do the regular 5man Icecrowns on normal with blues/greens.  I mean easily.  I guess you need to not be retarded.  I did it last night in a blue PvP set on my fresh new hunter, who was still using the heritage bow and boasting a whopping 2k DPS.  Also, I'm only barely not retarded on a Hunter.  That will get you ilvl 219 gear, which will be plenty, I assume not having done it, for heroic Icecrown 5man.

Also for the guy complaining about an hour clear and too much trash.  Dude I hate all trash.  But this is not too much trash.  You're just a pussy.

I'm sorry but HoR on normal will destroy pugs of people in greens and blues. That last segment is brutal. My group is pretty decently geared and on vent, and it got dicey for a second there. Now Im not saying this is Vaelstraz or anything, but if the whole group is in greens and blues, its going to be REALLY hard to clear HoR.

Like I said, we got cut off from the last part due to the server shitting itself, so you could be right.  But destroyed?  Come on.  The first two instances and the first part of the third were not that difficult.  Like not even at all.

In any event, the point I'm trying to make is not that it's so terribly easy a caveman could do it.  Rather that it's entry level content with good rewards.  And I think it is.  It bridges the gap between a fresh level 80 and the newer 10 mans.  In other words, I think it's completely plausible to go from a fresh 80 directly to these new 5 mans.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: jakonovski on December 09, 2009, 01:25:45 PM

That's all you.  Corei750 and same card.  No issues.  The lowest I get is 60fps in Dalaran.  Much higher everywhere else.

Yeah, everything else I have, several dozen games, runs perfectly. I'm so not going to start hunting for a solution. I'll use my shitty laptop to run through the new instances and consider this a 13 euro lesson.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 09, 2009, 01:28:43 PM
I haven't run normal yet, so I really can't comment for sure, but I will boldly state that going into heroic without an overgeared healer is a recipe for utter disaster.

In one of the heroics, there are mobs that AE the entire group for 7k damage every 5s or so.

My overall point, which I'll finally throw out because hey, I may as well state it.

I think it is utterly ridiculous to put higher healing demands in 5 man heroics (HToC, new ICC 5 mans) than there are in 25 man raid instances.  I should not be frantically hitting Holy Light, and praying I do not run out of mana, when I theoretically outgear an instance by 13 ilvls.  I cannot even imagine how another paladin, with say 226 or lower gear, would ever manage to heal this instance.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 09, 2009, 01:51:50 PM
A LOT of the damage in the new heroics is avoidable or manageable. Once you get it you the healing won't be so intense.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 09, 2009, 02:13:27 PM
Don't all paladins get an aoe undead stun as well? Not to mention priest shackles, hunter traps.  Not to mentions misdirects, pet tanks, etc. None of the fights in the newest heroics are unreasonably hard(the lichking undead zerg is hard but rightly so) it's just that players have gotten incredibly lazy with the easy content of wotlk.  Players ignore boss mechanics, they ignore their own abilities in favor of 1.tank run in.  2.aoe spam 3. get out of fire.

Fights where you need to use more than three buttons does not = hard.  Take the raid instance, for instance  :oh_i_see: Some of the starter trash packs in there easily wipe raids unless you....wait for it.....have priests shackle! yes, shackle undead, a level what, 20 priest spell? You remember that don't you? I sure as hell do. Yet the button has been collecting dust since hell...maybe early bc maybe longer.

No you won't be doing the icecrown 5's in blues/greens but you arent meant to either. same as you arent meant to step into icc without having done at least ulduar. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Numtini on December 09, 2009, 02:16:29 PM
I haven't done that many raids in WoW, most of my experience is in EQ2, but I don't find it odd in the least that a 5 or 6 man is harder to heal than a 24/25 raid. You're alone and usually it's all about healing. In a raid, you have some backup and there's usually a lot more to it than the healing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 09, 2009, 02:57:04 PM
it's just that players have gotten incredibly lazy with the easy content of wotlk.  Players ignore boss mechanics, they ignore their own abilities in favor of 1.tank run in.  2.aoe spam 3. get out of fire.

This, times ten.  We had to actually think to kill the Godfather of Souls and the Soul Devourer last night and we were like "wtf dude..." at first.  Then thinking about it we had fun instead of mindlessly zerging yet ANOTHER dungeon we way outgeared. 

The wipes on trash up to the first boss were lulzworthy.  We learned that "run in, aoe shit down" wasn't a valid tactic anymore and we had to plan.  Best time I've had in a while, despite all the wipes.  The bosses are pretty fun, despite being a challenge as well.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on December 09, 2009, 04:44:31 PM
That attitude is getting worse it seems, and GS doesn't help any at all.  I logged on last night to do the fishing, cooking, and BG dailies, and people were spamming for Forge groups but you had to have a 5k GS and knowledge of the fights to participate.  As I said, I will put myself into the queue and fdo whatever dungeon pops, and if some random person griped about GS, I'll kindly remind him why I am there in the first place.
The people still spamming "lfg" in trade are the ones sitting around with a thumb up their arse while sensible people are rolling the dice on the random lfg tool and running the instances already.

Of course, it helps if you're a healer or tank.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 09, 2009, 06:59:43 PM
I ran three instances tonight on random for the extra badges and it wasn't bad at all. Though one ret paladin tried rolling on a caster trinket and i nearly jumped through the internet to choke him before he gave it to me.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on December 09, 2009, 07:38:33 PM
Ran through a few more today.  Ran into a complete retard tank that quit before we could kick him.  Also ran into an instance where the people were very nice and had been very obviously carried to get the gear they had.  Still though over all I am loving this.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 09, 2009, 08:58:40 PM
I PUGed all three heroic ICC 5 mans today.  Not one dude was over 3k DPS.  We had a Shaman healer who was just as badly geared as I was.  The tank had Uld 10 gear.  It's just not that bad, guys.  You need to cc in the beginning/gauntlet area of the final dungeon.  That's pretty much it.  I'm not gonna sit here and say there weren't wipes.  There were.  But I mean come on.  It's a pug.  In three weeks everyone will have figured out the fights, and pugging this shit will be easy.  I think some of the frustration people here are having is just due to this being new. 

:oh_i_see:

Also, purple rain.

Double also, the music in the first wing is  :drill:.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 09, 2009, 09:18:25 PM
Well I for one like the LFG tool.  And I like the ICC raid.  The gunship battle is my favorite so far.  The boss fights are considerably more about skill this time (avoiding fire, add management) than it is about how fast you can DPS to beat some enrage timer (ToC).  All of the fights with timers we had 3-4m left when the boss died.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 09, 2009, 09:28:07 PM
Saurfang is very much a dps race but in a weird way. such that the more precise you are, the less actual dps check it is.  gunship though is easily the best fight so far...not incredibly hard but damned fun.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morfiend on December 09, 2009, 09:33:11 PM
I PUGed all three heroic ICC 5 mans today.  Not one dude was over 3k DPS.  We had a Shaman healer who was just as badly geared as I was.  The tank had Uld 10 gear. 

I wasnt saying that is super hard, just that you do need some existing gear, making these not into level dungeons. If a full group hits HoR in a mix of green and blue gear, they will fail unless they are a very high quality of player.

I really really like the 3 new 5 mans. I'm glad they are a little harder and require some gear and thought.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 09, 2009, 11:01:57 PM
The people still spamming "lfg" in trade are the ones sitting around with a thumb up their arse while sensible people are rolling the dice on the random lfg tool and running the instances already.

Of course, it helps if you're a healer or tank.  :oh_i_see:

Absolutely. Luckily the ignore list has been increased to 50 so the /2 LFG'ers are rapidly disappearing from *my* wow  :awesome_for_real:

We had the "1000s of people coming back to wow to check out the new shinies" effect start impacting the server last night. By about 8pm it became impossible to launch more instances, but by that time I had managed 3 separate 1-1.5 hour sessions of 2 random dungeons each throughout the day with never more than a 2-3 minute wait, so I was happy. Got my "Epic" achievement after the last run and today I plan to check out either the first part of ICC or the weekly raid (EoE, which I've never done!). Much fun, very very happy with this patch.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2009, 01:38:02 AM
I've cleared H Gundrak in 11 minutes.  I think the longest it takes, for a four boss instance, is maybe 20 minutes, and that's one with stupid slow-you-down mechanics like HoL or UP.  I think being annoyed about a two boss dungeon taking 20 minutes is warranted.

I'll be waiting to watch your tears when you hit HHoR though.  I hope you enjoy wiping!  (Bring CC, an AE healer, and a damn sharp tank.  Or don't even bother.  Oh, and be prepared to cleanse a multitude of debuffs, deal with silences, fears, etc.)

It will be delicious.

No, I'm pretty sure bitching about not being able to clear a two boss heroic that drops the loot it drops in 20 minute is just that. Bitching.

I did indeed spend a lot of time wiping in HHoR tonight. My cheeks remain dry, however. This reminds me of the wailing about heroic MgT back when that was brandy dandy new. My God, we have to think?! BLIZZARD YOU SUCK OMG


EDIT: Also yeah, Wipefest 2009 was partly due to crappy CCing, some not paying attention to OW WTF IS HITTING ME AUGH, the healer not having healed a 5 man in a billion jillion years (I'm not gonna say which is easier, but I think they're pretty clearly different styles), etc. Plus I sux at tank.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 10, 2009, 03:18:19 AM
Did the first 3 parts of ICC in a cross-realm PUG this morning. Couple of wipes, some learning, but overall it was awesome. Fun instances, good loot, good fun.

My only complaint so far is the crippling of the Need/Greed system. As a shaman I can now no long roll for cloth/leather items for my resto off-spec, which is just stupid. I'd never roll Need over someone who wanted an item for their main spec but now with the Disenchant option you often can't even trade the item afterwards because it's been sharded. Had to watch two resto set upgrades get turned into dust this morning. Stupid stupid stupid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 10, 2009, 03:33:20 AM
Then don't run them in the PUG system.  The old "run there yourself" is still an option.

The NBG system has to be that way, because even if YOU wouldn't abuse it, plenty of others would.  4 random strangers, no chance of any consequences stemming from being a dickweed, yeah that always works out for the best.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 10, 2009, 03:36:58 AM
I PUGed all three heroic ICC 5 mans today.  Not one dude was over 3k DPS.  We had a Shaman healer who was just as badly geared as I was.  The tank had Uld 10 gear. 

I wasnt saying that is super hard, just that you do need some existing gear, making these not into level dungeons. If a full group hits HoR in a mix of green and blue gear, they will fail unless they are a very high quality of player.

Well, we'll never know for certain on that one. You're locked out of the dungeon if you're in mixed blues & greens.  My Horde pally has all of 6 hours at level 80 so the dungeon system tells me "You need better gear" for both ToC and ICC instances.   Oh noes, gear scoring!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 10, 2009, 04:31:50 AM
Important undocumented change!  Wyrmrest Temple is now a proper inn, where you go into zzz mode and can logoff immediately!

But seriously, I used the dungeon finder last night to get my Oculus run for a few pieces of my tanking set and got a group immediately.  When the instance server kicked us out, two groups quit on me. But we found that you can spam the "Teleport to instance" button (right click the eye icon hanging on your minimap) and eventually it will let you in. Little protip there.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on December 10, 2009, 05:41:33 AM
A mod named "Gearscore Breaker". (http://sites.google.com/site/gearscoreugh/)  It does exactly what it says on the tin. :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on December 10, 2009, 05:59:40 AM
Quote
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Icecrown Citadel raid dungeons has been reduced.
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Frozen Halls 5 player dungeons has been reduced.

Haha, no shit. For the hour or so I was on last night (mostly to say hello to guildies but also managed to kick Anub'rekhan's beetle-arse for the raid weekly*), someone got a Dalaran-wide shout-out for creating Quel'Delar every 2 minutes.




*bring back the dungeon dailys, Blizz. There was no reason to remove them at all, and now Timear doesn't even do anything. I don't see why Lan'dalock can't offer both daily and weekly quests


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on December 10, 2009, 06:22:58 AM
A mod named "Gearscore Breaker". (http://sites.google.com/site/gearscoreugh/)  It does exactly what it says on the tin. :drill:

Win, I am getting that!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on December 10, 2009, 06:28:29 AM
A mod named "Gearscore Breaker". (http://sites.google.com/site/gearscoreugh/)  It does exactly what it says on the tin. :drill:

Win, I am getting that!

This is one mod that I can get behind.  I love it. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 10, 2009, 06:33:57 AM
Heroic Halls of Reflection really comes down to group makeup.  Last night no matter how much we tried, our DK tank, pally healer, and mage\'lock\hunter just could NOT overcome the amount of damage generated on that last wave of spirits.  Either the priest would cower the healer or the rogues would shadowstep and insta-kill me or the warlock before the healer could react.  I'm sure it'll get detuned or easier once people know it better, but so far it's definitely not something I would be comfortable stepping into with random people in blues and greens ;-)  The other 2 new heroics aren't that bad though, some mechanisms to be learned obviously.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 10, 2009, 07:04:30 AM
Then don't run them in the PUG system.  The old "run there yourself" is still an option.

The NBG system has to be that way, because even if YOU wouldn't abuse it, plenty of others would.  4 random strangers, no chance of any consequences stemming from being a dickweed, yeah that always works out for the best.

I shall be pugging anything beyond normal 5-mans for a while yet, my guild is small and mostly fairly new to the game. I understand the reason behind it, doesn't stop it being galling watching gear get sharded like this.

Maybe my server is particularly mature/good-natured/whatever, but there's never been any loot problems in pugs I've been in since WotLK, and it feels like a shame that we have to see good loot that could be useful to others getting sharded because other people are dicks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 10, 2009, 07:17:42 AM
Quote
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Icecrown Citadel raid dungeons has been reduced.
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Frozen Halls 5 player dungeons has been reduced.

Haha, no shit. For the hour or so I was on last night (mostly to say hello to guildies but also managed to kick Anub'rekhan's beetle-arse for the raid weekly*), someone got a Dalaran-wide shout-out for creating Quel'Delar every 2 minutes.

Bastards. God forbid they wait to do it until I get the drop.  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 10, 2009, 07:19:47 AM
Heroic Halls of Reflection really comes down to group makeup.  Last night no matter how much we tried, our DK tank, pally healer, and mage\'lock\hunter just could NOT overcome the amount of damage generated on that last wave of spirits.  Either the priest would cower the healer or the rogues would shadowstep and insta-kill me or the warlock before the healer could react.  I'm sure it'll get detuned or easier once people know it better, but so far it's definitely not something I would be comfortable stepping into with random people in blues and greens ;-)  The other 2 new heroics aren't that bad though, some mechanisms to be learned obviously.
HoR is probably the worst instance out of the 3 to try with undergeared people (and by undergeared, i mean full normal Heroic Epics is cutting it close).  Assuming you get past the first part (which is more about actually using croud controll if you have it, and prioritizing targets to burn while hopeing you have at least 1 decurse / poison / disease clenese), the Escape from Arthas event will probably crush your group unless you can pull some pretty crazy dps (its almost completely a DPS race, and is tuned pretty high).

if you had a Holy Paladin / Hunter in your group, you should have tried to have something Feared / Trapped as often as you could (priest / Hunter / Mage being prime targets).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 10, 2009, 07:36:44 AM
You know you are NOT locked out of the new instances based on your gear right? You just can't use the new nifty lfg tool to get to them. The 'old' method of having your guildies carry your alt through them is still viable, you just have to go there manually.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 10, 2009, 08:29:07 AM
I've cleared H Gundrak in 11 minutes.  I think the longest it takes, for a four boss instance, is maybe 20 minutes, and that's one with stupid slow-you-down mechanics like HoL or UP.  I think being annoyed about a two boss dungeon taking 20 minutes is warranted.

I'll be waiting to watch your tears when you hit HHoR though.  I hope you enjoy wiping!  (Bring CC, an AE healer, and a damn sharp tank.  Or don't even bother.  Oh, and be prepared to cleanse a multitude of debuffs, deal with silences, fears, etc.)

It will be delicious.

No, I'm pretty sure bitching about not being able to clear a two boss heroic that drops the loot it drops in 20 minute is just that. Bitching.

I did indeed spend a lot of time wiping in HHoR tonight. My cheeks remain dry, however. This reminds me of the wailing about heroic MgT back when that was brandy dandy new. My God, we have to think?! BLIZZARD YOU SUCK OMG


EDIT: Also yeah, Wipefest 2009 was partly due to crappy CCing, some not paying attention to OW WTF IS HITTING ME AUGH, the healer not having healed a 5 man in a billion jillion years (I'm not gonna say which is easier, but I think they're pretty clearly different styles), etc. Plus I sux at tank.  :oh_i_see:

I think you misunderstood me, so I'll clarify.

I found the place challenging.  We wiped once, and then plowed through the rest of it with little issue.  We even got the "We aren't retreating!" achievement.  It annoys me a bit, because I overgear the place.  My point is this - if you do not overgear the place, you will have a very hard time clearing it.  I think the instance is overtuned for the people it should be targeted to, which is the people who are running it for the loot.

I don't mind -hard-.  I do mind that "hard" is currently defined as "spam your biggest heal until enough mobs are dead that you can spam your smaller heal, maybe.  Oh, and move from fire, plus use assorted cooldowns and abilities.  On top of that, manage your mana!"  None of that is hard, and most of it is second nature to me after this expansion.

I guess I said it poorly the first time.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 10, 2009, 09:08:49 AM
I'm such a badass at this game that if I had some trouble with it, it must be impossible for you scrubs.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 10, 2009, 09:40:56 AM
Ooo, a poopsocker called me an elitist.  I'm so hurt.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 10, 2009, 09:52:21 AM
Ooo, a poopsocker called me an elitist.  I'm so hurt.

Either everyone in the thread is out to get you, or you're coming across like a jackass. Unless you're aiming for b), you could consider it constructive criticism.  Just a thought.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 10, 2009, 10:07:32 AM
I don't want to get in the middle here, but I will say I fucking hate HoR already. As a tank, that wave of undead is a fucking pain. Those bastards fucking jump to a new target at the slightest whim.

But yeah, shackle undead for the win.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 10, 2009, 10:19:10 AM
All right.  I'm going to try again.

First off, I apologize for coming across as a jackass.  I thought it would be useful or interesting to include some anecdotal thoughts and experiences on HHoR, but apparently it came across as LOL I R TEH AWESOME.  I'm sorry.  I don't think I'm awesome.

Okay, with that hopefully out of the way.

I personally think HHoR is overtuned for people who need to run it for the gear it drops.

Do you agree (Y/N)?

If not, then why?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 10, 2009, 10:23:33 AM
It's difficult for a healer too. And hard for a DPS. Done it twice now (on normal this is), once as shaman healer, once as shaman DPS, in PUG groups that were OK geared but not massively over-geared. Both times the group wiped 1st try, stopped and planned a bit - prioritising targets mainly - and then succeeded on 2nd try. It requires people to play their characters well - use every cooldown and trinket etc, swap to the right target quickly, manage agro carefully.

It feels to me about right in terms of challenge - harder than (for instance) ToC5 heroic but not stupidly so. I don't like the "hide in a corner to force the ranged DPS to come right too you" trick, that feels cheesy, but it's better than wiping repeatedly  :awesome_for_real:

I personally think HHoR is overtuned for people who need to run it for the gear it drops.

Do you agree (Y/N)?

I think it's borderline. Both the times I ran it I think almost everyone in the group got an upgrade drop. I'd have got 3 if it hadn't been for the "can't roll on cloth" thing. We'd not have managed it if our gear had been significantly worse and if our gear had been much better we'd only have been getting emblems. So I think it's perfect. Factor in the heroic/normal option and you've got a range of challenge and reward that fits what I am seeing (as a casual PUG'er) very well.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 10, 2009, 10:29:10 AM
After getting through the release versions of the ICC5 trilogy I have to say that Blizzard is pretty good at tuning 5-mans at the least. As a warrior tank I hate the fuck out of some the pulls in FoR and PoS with the widely spaced out casters I have to try and corral, but it's a lot of fun and definitely not a cakewalk even if you overgear it. The last wave or so before Falric and Marwyn are pretty fucking crazy.

There is a "stupid mode" for HoR however with tanking in the alcoves where Marwyn and Falric are.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 10, 2009, 11:09:58 AM
As soon as I get that damn hilt drop, I'm not setting foot in there again. HoR is the new occulus!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 10, 2009, 11:18:48 AM
ICC 25
- Marrowgar downed after about 6 tries
- Lady Deathwhisper not downed after about 4 tries.

ICC 10
- We managed to make it through gunship, which is probably the best fight in the instance so far.
- Marrowgar - much easier after you've done it a few times
- Deathwhisper - phase 1 is very much about having your RL call out for target switches.
- Gunship - yay jetpacks!

Most of the people who did 10 were also present for 25, so a number of us got to friendly with Ashen Verdict, yay for new rings.


Oh, and my favorite bit, since the heroic mode is baked right into the instance, no more clearing current content 3 or 4 times a week.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Morfiend on December 10, 2009, 11:32:42 AM
Well, we'll never know for certain on that one. You're locked out of the dungeon if you're in mixed blues & greens.  My Horde pally has all of 6 hours at level 80 so the dungeon system tells me "You need better gear" for both ToC and ICC instances.   Oh noes, gear scoring!

No you are not. You are just locked out of using the LFG tool to queue for those dungeons. You could still form a group and fly there.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 10, 2009, 11:45:29 AM
Important undocumented change!  Wyrmrest Temple is now a proper inn, where you go into zzz mode and can logoff immediately!

Sadly it still doesn't seem to have a damn mailbox.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on December 10, 2009, 11:48:18 AM
Important undocumented change!  Wyrmrest Temple is now a proper inn, where you go into zzz mode and can logoff immediately!

Sadly it still doesn't seem to have a damn mailbox.

It's being built in Darnassus's now happy blacksmiths. They have a bit of a backlog.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: sickrubik on December 10, 2009, 12:08:27 PM
Sadly it still doesn't seem to have a damn mailbox.

No one wants to be the penpal of a dragon. :(


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 10, 2009, 12:28:34 PM
I personally think HHoR is overtuned for people who need to run it for the gear it drops.

Do you agree (Y/N)?

The only thing that makes it seem over tuned is the possibility of somewhat unhealable damage spikes.  These can be controlled via cc.  Either shackle or freezing shot on the random hunter/mage ranged mob that the tank can't get to, and then the healer doesn't have to heal himself or someone else on top of the tank.  (Freezing shot made me look like a super hero here.)  If no hunter/priest, I'm sure other forms of cc will work passably.  I'm thinking repentance or fear.

Other than that, it's pretty much conventional pve principles apply.  Kill the squshy first.  Don't let shit beat on your healer.  Focus fire.  These are all things that in the past have been pretty staple expectations for a high level 5-man - including cc.  But recently, they have not.  Recent 5 man tactics mostly get boiled down because of more effective AoE tanking abilities/classes introduced in this expansion.

So no.  It's not really over tuned.  Of course skill is a factor, and that's relative to individual experience.  But this isn't the hardest this level of content has been in previous iterations.  And when compared with that, it seems to me like it's tuned about right.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 10, 2009, 12:31:00 PM
It is certainly difficult, but not unpossible. The main annoying thing is that the list of CC options that work on undead is pretty short compared to some other mob types. With the lineup we had last night, our main CC options were poly and hex. Doh.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 10, 2009, 12:34:25 PM
I personally think HHoR is overtuned for people who need to run it for the gear it drops.

Do you agree (Y/N)?

The only thing that makes it seem over tuned is the possibility of somewhat unhealable damage spikes.  These can be controlled via cc.  Either shackle or freezing shot on the random hunter/mage ranged mob that the tank can't get to, and then the healer doesn't have to heal himself or someone else on top of the tank.  (Freezing shot made me look like a super hero here.)  If no hunter/priest, I'm sure other forms of cc will work passably.  I'm thinking repentance or fear.

Silly Musashi. Ret paladins don't take time out from blindly trying to climb to the top of a dps meter. Not to do something as journeymen as ccing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 10, 2009, 01:49:00 PM
It is certainly difficult, but not unpossible. The main annoying thing is that the list of CC options that work on undead is pretty short compared to some other mob types. With the lineup we had last night, our main CC options were poly and hex. Doh.

Stoneclaw/grounding totem would probably help mitigate some damage from the caster mobs, grounding especially. Also bloodlusting on the last wave...i was with a shaman who went the entire instance without bloodlust, saving it like it was some precious jewel. It was the same in toc too when the black knight was raping groups left and right until they realizing they might need to use a cooldown. cooldown?! what's that?! 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on December 10, 2009, 01:56:03 PM
I've tanked H-HOR in a cross-server pug on my "welfare geared" feral drood (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Crushridge&n=Arel) with only a hunter and a dps DK in the group having done it before. We wiped enough times to hit a 65-gold repair bill, but after that we just set the DK to 'offtank' mages, the hunter to trap enemy hunters, use the pet as an emergency OT and MD crap onto me, and things suddenly went much better. Keeping aggro wasn't even the real problem, not getting gibbed was... I had to kite enemy groups a few times while tanking (by charging a caster) to give time for the healer to top me off. Another memorable moment was the same pug in the pit of saron, where the healer got gibbed by a frostbolt with the end boss at 5% and enraged, and I had to kite him over a frost puddle just long enough to get a combat rez off.

All in all, I really like the new instances, they definitely need more awareness from EVERYONE (not just healer and tank). (Also, I think the final HOR event needs benny hill music in the background... badly.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 10, 2009, 02:07:02 PM
I recommend killing the shadowy mercenaries first when you get them in HoR. They like to stun the tank then shadowstep to nearly instagib other party members. After that, mages, priests, then whatever else. The riflemen are annoying but not really deadly if you can decurse.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2009, 03:14:28 PM
Quote
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Icecrown Citadel raid dungeons has been reduced.
# The chance for epic items to drop off trash mobs in the Frozen Halls 5 player dungeons has been reduced.

Haha, no shit. For the hour or so I was on last night (mostly to say hello to guildies but also managed to kick Anub'rekhan's beetle-arse for the raid weekly*), someone got a Dalaran-wide shout-out for creating Quel'Delar every 2 minutes.

Bastards. God forbid they wait to do it until I get the drop.  :grin:

For real, right?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 10, 2009, 03:18:16 PM
At the rate I was seeing them, it felt like everyone would have their hilt within the next two weeks.  I don't know how bad it got nerfed, but it probably won't be long before everyone has one still.  I was also seeing a shitload of random drops of trash.  Seemed too good to be true.  I mean, most of them were ilvl 200 pieces of shit.  But some, like me, got lucky and got a nice boe drop worth about 2k.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 10, 2009, 03:20:54 PM
I like how I can't get anything good solo queueing for battlegrounds because "WoW is a social game that rewards organization and bla bla bla" but they've now made grouping as mechanical, anonymous, and anti-social as possible. I just finished heroic DTK with four random people like ten minutes ago, no one said more than a few words, and I don't remember any of their names.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2009, 03:21:54 PM
Oh, I'm just sad 'cause I held off doing the heroic versions on patch day because the server was being so poopy, and missed my chance of an easy hilt drop. Ain't no big thing, I'm sure I'll be running the shit out of those instances.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 10, 2009, 03:41:23 PM
Well, we'll never know for certain on that one. You're locked out of the dungeon if you're in mixed blues & greens.  My Horde pally has all of 6 hours at level 80 so the dungeon system tells me "You need better gear" for both ToC and ICC instances.   Oh noes, gear scoring!

No you are not. You are just locked out of using the LFG tool to queue for those dungeons. You could still form a group and fly there.

I wasn't clear enough.. it was a direct reference to a slapped-together PUG in greens and blues running the place, overcoming Gear with Skill.  That ain't happening unless your guildies also want to take alts.

ICC 25
- Marrowgar downed after about 6 tries
- Lady Deathwhisper not downed after about 4 tries.

We were 4 to kill Marrow and 5 wipes (not to mention the entrance trash wipes... CC in a raid instance?! How novel!)  Tuesday night in 25.    I don't think they got her down last night, either.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 10, 2009, 05:03:40 PM
We tried Marrowgar about 5 times for an hour with a fill-in group just to check out the place. We got him to about 25% just screwing around, so I don't imagine it's a hard fight if your healers can handle it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: pants on December 10, 2009, 07:43:04 PM
Our 10-man raid has been working on Uld hard modes (getting stuck on Freya +3 and Mimiron Firefighter), can clear ToC in 30 minutes, but TotGC kicks our arses.

With that background, over 2 nights this week we managed to knock off the first 4 bosses.  Saurfang we got on something like the 6th attempt - so it looks like you get more than 5 attempts in a lockout period.  I'm not saying this to wave an e-peen, just that a reasonably competent raid that isn't super hardcore, can clear the first 4 bosses.  Now we work on farming them and badges for 4 weeks until the next wing opens.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 10, 2009, 07:52:51 PM
I want to say any guild clearing hardmodes is in the top 10% already to begin with.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on December 10, 2009, 09:33:13 PM
Even hardmodes from an entire patch cycle ago?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 10, 2009, 09:45:00 PM
I'm finding tonight that I wouldn't throw out my questhelper yet.

I have a quest I three steps down the line from and it still shows the first quest.  Unless I'm just dumb, I can't make the tracking show properly, because it keeps doggedly showing the location of a quest I don't care about, no matter which one I click.  To add to that, when you zoom out it REALLY throws it off.  It's showing me the location of one quest with the name of a zone and indicating a different quest in the log.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 10, 2009, 10:01:37 PM
Even hardmodes from an entire patch cycle ago?


Even hardmodes from like 3 patch cycles ago. How many people have actually done Sarth 3d or whatever? I'm guessing that number is still very low.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 10, 2009, 10:15:42 PM
How many people have actually done Sarth 3d or whatever? I'm guessing that number is still very low.
We did it when Ulduar was out and we thought we were cool.  I see quite a few "of the nightfall" around, but "Twilight Vanquisher" is very rare indeed and always seems to have been.

For the record, H HoR makes me stabby over how little room for error there is.  Finally got it down, but it was close, even with decent raid geared people (TotGC experienced).  I am sure it will be a joke one day, but it's at just the right level of tuning to be "overly difficult for most."  Closer to a higher end raid encounter than the standard heroics we have been used to running.  Not that making it difficult is bad or anything, it just gets frustrating when bad luck happens and it wipes the group with little that can be done.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 10, 2009, 10:19:55 PM
Small (probably obvious) hint about the random dungeon finder - if you join a queue for a role make sure you're wearing the gear you have for that role.

I joined queue for a random heroic yesterday, flagged as DPS or healer. I was wearing my DPS gear while queuing because I was doing dailies, and my DPS gear is considerably better than my healing gear. Random dungeon finder looks at my 3k DPS gear and goes "Aha! You can cope with heroic HoR!" and drops me in there as healer.

 :uhrr:

Didn't go well. Lesson learned  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on December 10, 2009, 10:50:54 PM
Sadly it still doesn't seem to have a damn mailbox.
No one wants to be the penpal of a dragon. :(
They had to remove it because of everyone who wanted to be a penpal...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2009, 11:36:02 PM
Small (probably obvious) hint about the random dungeon finder - if you join a queue for a role make sure you're wearing the gear you have for that role.

I joined queue for a random heroic yesterday, flagged as DPS or healer. I was wearing my DPS gear while queuing because I was doing dailies, and my DPS gear is considerably better than my healing gear. Random dungeon finder looks at my 3k DPS gear and goes "Aha! You can cope with heroic HoR!" and drops me in there as healer.

 :uhrr:

Didn't go well. Lesson learned  :awesome_for_real:

Oh dear, that's really good for me to know!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 11, 2009, 03:34:47 AM
Clarification.... it's nothing to do with gear score I don't think. It says that I can enter the ICC 5 mans as healer even when I log on with my crappy healing gear.

I'm guessing that the new 5-mans aren't calculating required gear properly? Either that or it's just very forgiving. I dunno, either way I shall *not* be flagging myself as a potential heroic healer until I either have much better healing gear (although I have happily healed every single heroic except TOC in what I have now) or they tweak the entry reqs for random HoR groups at least.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on December 11, 2009, 03:39:19 AM
I don't think there is any gear matching... my drood (mostly in i226 gear, linked earlier in the thread) was grouped with healers fully geared in toc25 hardmode stuff, and hunters who literally hit 80 2 hours before the run and still in leveling blues/greens. There's the "you must have ilevelxxx gear to get on this ride" block for toc and icecrown (and raids), but that's about it.


edit: I -was- pretty intimidated when they tossed me into pit of saron for the random heroic and actually had to pay attention to tanking instead of enrage-charge-swipeswipeswipeswipe. Then we moved on to halls of reflection and won, after a "few" wipes.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Drubear on December 11, 2009, 06:27:49 AM
re: selectable difficulty. Is part of Blizz's design that if you use the LFD tool you get a helpful (? does it make a difference at all?) buff vs. you choosing to not use the tool and go without? And does it survive a wipe or is it a one shot thing?

So there's a buffer for the group for the wild (!) disparity in gearing that's possible with the LFD tool in addition to letting the user select normal vs. heroic and the whole "keep you from picking too high" which doesn't seem to be all >>that<< particular.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 11, 2009, 07:18:32 AM
I want to say any guild clearing hardmodes is in the top 10% already to begin with.

I don't believe ulduar/naxx/sarth 25 hardmodes being relegated to 10% of the populous 'right now' has anything to do with barriers in gear or skill.  It's simply too hard to organize 25 people to do content, especially old content.  In fact I'd say organizing 25 people is the hardest part of any tier of raiding, there's just not enough people who can all block the same time slots and those that can are already in a guild that raids. 



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on December 11, 2009, 07:56:26 AM
Clarification.... it's nothing to do with gear score I don't think. It says that I can enter the ICC 5 mans as healer even when I log on with my crappy healing gear.
It's just like the BG gear matching, it doesn't care at all what you're wearing.  It looks at all of the gear you own, including what's in your bags and the bank.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 11, 2009, 11:02:23 AM
Small (probably obvious) hint about the random dungeon finder - if you join a queue for a role make sure you're wearing the gear you have for that role.

I joined queue for a random heroic yesterday, flagged as DPS or healer. I was wearing my DPS gear while queuing because I was doing dailies, and my DPS gear is considerably better than my healing gear. Random dungeon finder looks at my 3k DPS gear and goes "Aha! You can cope with heroic HoR!" and drops me in there as healer.

 :uhrr:

Didn't go well. Lesson learned  :awesome_for_real:

Actually what it supposedly does is it looks at all the gear you *own* so even if that stuff was in your bank I suspect you'd have been dropped in HoR.

EDIT: Oh hey maybe read whole thread before responding, Ingmar.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 11, 2009, 04:46:41 PM
So I have decided that HoR is a LOT easier to heal as a priest than it is as a shaman. The success of the event section depends mostly on the tank, so having fade to dump aggro (which you will get) is a huge boon. Group heals are also win.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 11, 2009, 04:49:38 PM
Group heals are also win.
Yes.  My shaman has such trouble in many instances compared to my priest or druid because of the group healing being slightly lacking compared to them.  I think my biggest complaint about shammy heals is *no HoT* and *everything requires a finite cast time of at least 1s* which the other healing classes don't always have.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 11, 2009, 04:51:23 PM
Riptide! I love that spell. I'd say pallies have it just as bad in those situations, if not worse - beacon is pretty awesome, but chain heal is too, and I like riptide better than holy shock on paper. I've only healed from the shaman side of the argument though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 11, 2009, 05:20:24 PM
As a warlock, I love riptide.  A shaman will always cast that on me between pulls for lifetapping.   :heart:  On my shaman, uhh, I hate to heal.  I mainly keep a resto spec for holiday bosses.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 11, 2009, 10:55:31 PM
Yes.  My shaman has such trouble in many instances compared to my priest or druid because of the group healing being slightly lacking compared to them.  I think my biggest complaint about shammy heals is *no HoT* and *everything requires a finite cast time of at least 1s* which the other healing classes don't always have.

Earth Shield, Riptide, Nature's Swiftness + whatever, Healing Stream Totem.

There ya go, HoT's and instas, no problems. I am loving healing as a Shaman. Combine the above with the enormous utility of the largest range & flexibility of buffs I can think of, ohshitohshitohshit buttons like BL and Earth Elemental, things like Mana Tide and Tidal Force and Reincarnation and you have an awesome (but somewhat complex compared to some other healing classes I will agree) healer and raid-saving machine!

I've been gearing up as an Enhance DPSer but building up a Resto off-spec set. Flagging as healer in the LFD tool means I get a group almost instantly, so I've been doing it more, and I totally love it. I'm only in rep gear and a couple of bits of badge loot but already I'm happy healing anything except maybe TOC5 heroic with a bad group or HoR and routinely chuck out 18-20k heals, almost never run out of mana and have great fun in the process.

I  :heart: my shaman  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 11, 2009, 11:04:46 PM
10 to 1 most healers do NOT take their threat reduction talents and then complain about getting aggro.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 11, 2009, 11:09:28 PM
10 to 1 most healers do NOT take their threat reduction talents and then complain about getting aggro.

Healers get aggro? Your tank sucks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 11, 2009, 11:35:26 PM
Tanks have a 2.0735x threat modifier (paladins are special, but balanced generally for the same amount).  Healing innately has a 0.5x threat modifier and doesn't count overheal, and you have to pass the tank by 110%/130% (melee/ranged).  Ergo, if you are stealing aggro after the pull your tank is a baddie.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on December 12, 2009, 12:00:39 AM
The only times a healer will get aggro are if A. An add shows up and the tank has no threat, so it wouldn't help. B. The healer is priest or shaman and aggressively DPSing on something the tank isn't focused on.

edit content: I healed HOR as a shaman with a pug paladin tank who still needed plenty of drops from the instance.  We used the corner strat and only had one touchy moment, but no wipes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 12, 2009, 12:21:40 AM
Just healed Heroic Halls of Reflection, it was fine! Resto Druid in Naxx 10 gear. The only REAL issue, was the fact I only have like 15k HP in that gear, so any stray piece of damage was cutting me in half. Lots of Pre-Hotting on myself in anticipation.

We failed the last bit half a dozen times or so due to various issues before we got it.


First time 2 DPS got slaughtered by the LK due to proximity.

Second time the very last Mob we had to kill got stuck in a torch/lamp thing and no one could get LoS.

Third time I ran OOM between trying to help DPS and having to battle rez a stray rogue.

Fourth time we managed to clear all the mobs literally 2 seconds to late, and wiped due to LK.

We finally got it going on try number Five, unless I'm forgetting a wipe.



We didn't have the strongest DPS line up either, half of us were probably a bit under-geared all around. Our tank was fully geared so that helped undoubtedly.



/fake edit - I take my healing threat talent!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 12, 2009, 12:53:28 AM
We found the running-from-LK section to be quite a bit harder than the Falric/Marwyn fight with our lineup at least.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 12, 2009, 01:01:15 AM
Yeah, my DPS as a DK is kinda lacking. I hardly ever do it, so I'm always rusty, and I totally ignore upgrading my DPS suit most of the time. I think I'm gonna just have to tank it all the time, oh well!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Azuredream on December 12, 2009, 01:31:25 AM
Throwing in my 2c on HHoR - I've never wiped to the Lich King (usually have good dps for some reason) but those spirit waves always manage to gib a healer or the tank dies or something and we have to try it a few times to get it right. The one time I went with a warrior we had to abandon the run completely after 4 or 5 wipes, but every other time I've had a paladin who fared much better.

(I'm a rogue)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 12, 2009, 01:52:50 AM
...but those spirit waves always manage to gib a healer or the tank dies or something and we have to try it a few times to get it right.
Exact same thing happened tonight.  Everything going well, 9th wave, the priest instantly opens up with a cower\fear on the healer and no priest in the party to dispel, meant 4s of no healing when the mobs are unleashing on the tank (druid bear) and then gibbing the rest of us.  The pally healer did fine provided she didn't get cc'd during a bad portion.  The most successful we were was when there was no priest or mercenary, just footmen, mages and hunters (I smiled on ph 9 when that happened).  It still took us 4 wipes to get the spirits down, but then we 1-shot the running from the LK gauntlet and even got the 6m achievement to boot.  I do like how the 2nd boss of the spirit wave is essentially a joke compared to the first one.

It's a neat instance, but it sure is tuned tightly to where bad luck and party makeup can really ruin things and I'm not sure if player skill would necessarily have made up for it.  It's definitely not a brute force instance or some place where you can overgear it easily (at this point in the game).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 12, 2009, 02:31:55 AM
We only had 1 wipe on the opening Waves/Bosses, and that was mostly due to trying to hide in one of the alcoves and no one being able to see shit.


Once we went back to the starting hallway, it was tight, but we managed fine. Would've been routine if not for my 15k HP or sub 2k Spellpower. People just need to dig out their Assist/Interrupt/CC buttons.

We had a Hunter Trapping a ranged mob, caster or rifleman. Our rogue would break off and lock down any extra caster mobs that were loose. Our DK was helping with 'trash collecting' and interrupting as well, DG being a factor in helping to rein in ranged mobs. Prot Warrior was tanking, so more gratuitous use of interrupts and stuns. The biggest issue was just constantly making sure nothing was attacking me (tree), again, mostly due to the fact I have all of 15k HP  :why_so_serious:


If I had better gear, I could probably just tank a ranged ghost or two, which would put more DPS on the train since the Dk and Rogue wouldn't have to babysit me so much.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 12, 2009, 06:06:04 AM
Interrupts are just a fact of life for me. CTRL-Q!  But I'm always surprised to find there's a lot of rogues who don't kick,  DPS DKs who don't mind freeze, DG or strangulate and DPS Warriors who don't pummel.  If you're pugging it, remind these guys of their interrupts beforehand.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Triforcer on December 12, 2009, 11:58:59 AM
I haven't played WoW since BC.  Have things seriously devolved to the point where the ADHD sugar-addled legions of middle schoolers get angry when they have to REMEMBER TO USE THEIR CROWD CONTROL?  Jesus fucking Christ, the last page of this thread reads like a bad joke. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 12, 2009, 01:19:04 PM
That would be because sometimes these pugs play like a bad joke.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 12, 2009, 03:43:08 PM
It's really more because you didn't have to worry about doing it (unless raiding) for the last year+.  Ditto on mages not sheeping, rogues not asking what to sap and CC in general.  The LK dungeons have been a walk in the park to this point.  I wouldn't mark HoR or PoS as any more challenging than MT or Arcitraz, but it's throwing a lot of people for a loop now that they have to think again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 12, 2009, 05:46:08 PM
Earth Shield, Riptide, Nature's Swiftness + whatever, Healing Stream Totem.

There ya go, HoT's and instas, no problems. I am loving healing as a Shaman. Combine the above with the enormous utility of the largest range & flexibility of buffs I can think of, ohshitohshitohshit buttons like BL and Earth Elemental, things like Mana Tide and Tidal Force and Reincarnation and you have an awesome (but somewhat complex compared to some other healing classes I will agree) healer and raid-saving machine!

I've been gearing up as an Enhance DPSer but building up a Resto off-spec set. Flagging as healer in the LFD tool means I get a group almost instantly, so I've been doing it more, and I totally love it. I'm only in rep gear and a couple of bits of badge loot but already I'm happy healing anything except maybe TOC5 heroic with a bad group or HoR and routinely chuck out 18-20k heals, almost never run out of mana and have great fun in the process.

I  :heart: my shaman  :awesome_for_real:

I love my shaman too, but now that I'm getting to play my priest and shaman about equally and both are in equal gear the strengths and weaknesses of both are evident. From a healing standpoint my priest is far stronger, I have a lot more PvE 'outs' than the shaman. Riptide is paltry compared to glyphed PW:S or CoH+Surge of Light; Natures Swiftness can't compare to pain suppression or guardian spirit. But essentially HoR is the only sufficiently challenging heroic to expose the disparity. The shaman's main problem is the lack of group heals. I should probably glyph chain heal to make my life easier, but frankly the 2s (or whatever, I have 650ish haste) cast is too long and only hits 3 targets. On a priest prayer of mending is sickeningly good, and PoH hasted from Borrowed Time or Serendipity has a lot more burst throughput than CH could ever have. The other advantage priests have in HoR is fade. Even with a top tank, healers will get stray aggro as the trashmobs spawn so far apart. Being able to fade is so much better than having to target and windshock.

Once we went back to the starting hallway, it was tight, but we managed fine. Would've been routine if not for my 15k HP or sub 2k Spellpower. People just need to dig out their Assist/Interrupt/CC buttons.

15k HP is scary. Defiling Horror is 16K damage to each party member in 4s on heroic; good job on getting through that.

If I had better gear, I could probably just tank a ranged ghost or two, which would put more DPS on the train since the Dk and Rogue wouldn't have to babysit me so much.

You can tank a ranged or two on normal. On heroic, as a healer you don't want to have any aggro. Getting ice shotted or feared while suffering SW:P or flamestrike will really spoil your day :p

10 to 1 most healers do NOT take their threat reduction talents and then complain about getting aggro.

Healing reduction talents would only be useful if any healer ever pulled aggro off a tank through healing; but this never happens. The aggro we get (and HoR is a shining example of that) is aggro from mobs that the tank is yet to contact. The threat reduction talents would not help here. So really any healer taking the threat reducing talents for the purposes of not getting aggro is playing badly.

It's really more because you didn't have to worry about doing it (unless raiding) for the last year+.  Ditto on mages not sheeping, rogues not asking what to sap and CC in general.  The LK dungeons have been a walk in the park to this point.  I wouldn't mark HoR or PoS as any more challenging than MT or Arcitraz, but it's throwing a lot of people for a loop now that they have to think again.

HoR is harder than heroic Arcatraz I'd say; and it's nice to have a hard instance, but the difficulty is all in how long and inflexible the opening event is. Aractraz was hard because the individual trash mobs hit like trucks loaded with trucks, and the bosses were punishing; however you didn't have the same non-stop grind like the HoR event. The only thing I don't like is the fact that you can't rezz between waves of spirits. If you get an unlucky gib (freezing shot + flamestrike on a low-hp DPS happens quite often), you have no choice but to try and 4-man the rest of the way. The bosses are hard considering you don't really get a break during the spirit waves, and allowing some breaks would probably justify buffing their damage some, but otherwise the instance is good.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 12, 2009, 07:58:06 PM
HoT's are rad like that  :grin:


Everyone but our tank did come out of that AE fear dot with like 10-20% health at best, but there isn't much auxiliary damage either, so you just keep on rollin. I used a potion too probably, good old Crazy Alch pot!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 12, 2009, 10:05:43 PM
I love my shaman too, but now that I'm getting to play my priest and shaman about equally and both are in equal gear the strengths and weaknesses of both are evident. From a healing standpoint my priest is far stronger, I have a lot more PvE 'outs' than the shaman. Riptide is paltry compared to glyphed PW:S or CoH+Surge of Light; Natures Swiftness can't compare to pain suppression or guardian spirit. But essentially HoR is the only sufficiently challenging heroic to expose the disparity. The shaman's main problem is the lack of group heals. I should probably glyph chain heal to make my life easier, but frankly the 2s (or whatever, I have 650ish haste) cast is too long and only hits 3 targets. On a priest prayer of mending is sickeningly good, and PoH hasted from Borrowed Time or Serendipity has a lot more burst throughput than CH could ever have. The other advantage priests have in HoR is fade. Even with a top tank, healers will get stray aggro as the trashmobs spawn so far apart. Being able to fade is so much better than having to target and windshock.

Fair enough, I've only played a (shadow) priest up to level 64 and a resto druid up to 76 so I've never really been tested with either class. I shall bow to your greater experience there :)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on December 13, 2009, 03:54:35 AM
I should probably glyph chain heal to make my life easier...
Dear Lord yes. Yes, you should. Glyph Chain Heal, Earth Shield and Riptide as your majors for Resto always, and Watershield as a minor. Then pick two more minors, but Renewed Life is pretty handy as well.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 13, 2009, 04:20:12 AM
I should probably glyph chain heal to make my life easier...
Dear Lord yes. Yes, you should. Glyph Chain Heal, Earth Shield and Riptide as your majors for Resto always, and Watershield as a minor. Then pick two more minors, but Renewed Life is pretty handy as well.

Well this is the first time I have done heroics on my Shaman in ages. Usually I'm on tank duty for raids as our guild is chock full of holy priests, and Riptide+2xLHW is a pretty solid tank healing rotation.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Malakili on December 13, 2009, 07:35:50 AM
I haven't played WoW since BC.  Have things seriously devolved to the point where the ADHD sugar-addled legions of middle schoolers get angry when they have to REMEMBER TO USE THEIR CROWD CONTROL?  Jesus fucking Christ, the last page of this thread reads like a bad joke. 


Yes, the MO for 5mans since Lich King came out is Tank spams AoE threat generation ability, everyone else else AoE damage ability, or single target if their AoE sucks.  Yes, even for Heroics.  The days of Burning Crusade and worrying about whether you have the CC to do heroics is over.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 13, 2009, 08:25:51 AM
Dear Lord yes. Yes, you should. Glyph Chain Heal, Earth Shield and Riptide as your majors for Resto always, and Watershield as a minor. Then pick two more minors, but Renewed Life is pretty handy as well.

God yes. Waterwalk is a useful minor too, especially if you are a fisherman or a pvp'er at all. Nitro boosts on my boots + waterwalk has given more than 1 gnome fisherman a terrifying surprise in Wintergrasp   :drill:


I've also just come back from healing heroic HoR for the first time (only DPS'd before). Fucking jesus fucking christ that was insane. We wiped 4 or 5 times before we finally got it. This was a random dungeon PUG with all of us geared roughly the same kind of gear - mid tier emblem loot. DPS was all ~3k, tank was 38k HP, I've got ~2400 spellpower and it was hard as a bastard. We did it though, and everyone stayed really good natured all the way through. At the end we were all saying gj etc, everyone said awesome healing (which gives me a massive buzz, I have to admit) & great tanking etc.

Yeah it was hard but it was also possibly the most fun 45 mins I've had in a game for years. My hands were shaking at the end of it and my heart was pounding  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 13, 2009, 09:34:55 AM
The waves are way rougher than any of the bosses in HoR. The last or second to last wave before each boss is usually a fucking mess. The Marwyn and Falric can put out impressive damage but it's a lot less of a clusterfuck.

I dunno why everyone hates escaping the Lich King because that seemed way the hell easier. Just make sure the DPS and heals are by Jaina and the tank is trailing behind so the ghouls and other mobs aggro on him instead. AoE the ghouls, then single-target everything else.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 13, 2009, 10:01:16 AM
...and the tank is trailing behind so the ghouls and other mobs aggro on him instead. AoE the ghouls, then single-target everything else.
Sometimes the ghouls overshoot and go straight for Jaina\Sylvanas (and thus right into the healers\ranged).  It's still decently okay to pick them up, but something to be prepared for ;-)  The escape is really pretty easy until the very last wave, if the DPS isn't up there and the heals aren't up to the task, the mobs don't die fast enough and you get all of them swarming the tank (or worse, running free).  Any time I've ever died on the escape portion, it's always been the last wave.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 13, 2009, 10:25:00 AM
Minor gripe: Blizzard should have added the ability to be grouped with horde players for those instances only.

On the other hand, sweet zombie Jesus can you ever grind badges fast.  Blizzard should be looking for ways to prolong that kind of interest in throwing together PuGs indefinitely.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 13, 2009, 11:45:37 AM
I dunno why everyone hates escaping the Lich King because that seemed way the hell easier. Just make sure the DPS and heals are by Jaina and the tank is trailing behind so the ghouls and other mobs aggro on him instead. AoE the ghouls, then single-target everything else.

Agreed. I can't see how you could get past Falric and Marwyn then fail on the pursuit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 13, 2009, 12:16:57 PM
I dunno why everyone hates escaping the Lich King because that seemed way the hell easier. Just make sure the DPS and heals are by Jaina and the tank is trailing behind so the ghouls and other mobs aggro on him instead. AoE the ghouls, then single-target everything else.

Agreed. I can't see how you could get past Falric and Marwyn then fail on the pursuit.

Vomiting aboms seem to be a major issue for some.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 13, 2009, 12:41:58 PM
First time healing on my shaman for HoR and we had no deaths. Granted my shaman has decent gear but I think shaman overall have it pretty well in there with the amount of tricks you can use.  Grounding totem/disease cleansing/healingstream/decursing and bloodlust are all very helpful.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AcidCat on December 13, 2009, 02:34:51 PM
The cross-server dungon LFG is one of the best things to ever happen to this game. I hardly ever used to do even 5 man dungeons just because of the time that would be spent looking for a group, then of course on top of the actual time to go through the dungeon, I just usually don't have that long to play so I stopped even trying years ago. Now my 75 Druid can get into a dungeon within seconds as a healer and do a run in usually less than an hour. I've seen several dungeons this weekend that I never even stepped foot in before and upgraded 5 pieces of quest gear with dungeon blues. There have been a couple bad runs but most go very smooth.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 13, 2009, 02:48:02 PM
I dunno why everyone hates escaping the Lich King because that seemed way the hell easier. Just make sure the DPS and heals are by Jaina and the tank is trailing behind so the ghouls and other mobs aggro on him instead. AoE the ghouls, then single-target everything else.

Agreed. I can't see how you could get past Falric and Marwyn then fail on the pursuit.


Easy, you lack the raw DPS.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: pxib on December 13, 2009, 03:22:58 PM
The cross-server dungon LFG is one of the best things to ever happen to this game.
It's making me consider reinstalling. Running instances was my favorite part of the game, and difficulty putting groups together drove me to PvP. Not necessarily a deep longing to go back and play that will make me do so, but it's a move in the right direction.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 13, 2009, 03:34:44 PM
I dunno why everyone hates escaping the Lich King because that seemed way the hell easier. Just make sure the DPS and heals are by Jaina and the tank is trailing behind so the ghouls and other mobs aggro on him instead. AoE the ghouls, then single-target everything else.

Agreed. I can't see how you could get past Falric and Marwyn then fail on the pursuit.


Easy, you lack the raw DPS.

As I see it the opening event is more of a DPS check than the pursuit, but different strokes eh.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 13, 2009, 03:49:27 PM
Group heals are also win.
Yes.  My shaman has such trouble in many instances compared to my priest or druid because of the group healing being slightly lacking compared to them.  I think my biggest complaint about shammy heals is *no HoT* and *everything requires a finite cast time of at least 1s* which the other healing classes don't always have.
Now try doing it as a paladin.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 13, 2009, 04:02:36 PM
Group heals are also win.
Yes.  My shaman has such trouble in many instances compared to my priest or druid because of the group healing being slightly lacking compared to them.  I think my biggest complaint about shammy heals is *no HoT* and *everything requires a finite cast time of at least 1s* which the other healing classes don't always have.
Now try doing it as a paladin.   :oh_i_see:
I dont know, I have seen some paladins who seem to be able to throw out flash of light like they have some kind of holy spell six shooters glued to their hands, and with the amount some of those things crit for, and the cast speed they can fling them at they can heal a 5 man party with amazing effeciency.  That, and 2 minute Beacon makes a lot of healing pretty easy for them, or so it seams.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Hoth on December 13, 2009, 04:11:06 PM
For the Falric and Marwyn fight you can use the alcoven behind either of the bosses for your DPS/healer to break LOS. As a tank just stand 2 steps behind the boss to grant your healer line of sight to you and wait till the ranged mobs got aggroed by the heals.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 13, 2009, 04:20:26 PM
I dunno why everyone hates escaping the Lich King because that seemed way the hell easier. Just make sure the DPS and heals are by Jaina and the tank is trailing behind so the ghouls and other mobs aggro on him instead. AoE the ghouls, then single-target everything else.

Agreed. I can't see how you could get past Falric and Marwyn then fail on the pursuit.


Easy, you lack the raw DPS.

As I see it the opening event is more of a DPS check than the pursuit, but different strokes eh.


The opening waves are a control check, not a DPS one. More DPS is obviously better, but not really crucial to success.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 13, 2009, 05:00:35 PM
As I see it the opening event is more of a DPS check than the pursuit, but different strokes eh.
Agreed, if you had a finite time before the next wave spawned to kill the first wave (ala TotGC Beasts fight) but I haven't really noticed that being an issue in my groups.  It may happen, but I've never seen it even with a few 2k DPSers in the party.

I healed this as a druid today.  Stressful at times, but not truly difficult.  Only wiped twice because a dumbass pulled aggro before the tank on wave 9 (me) and on the retreat because the tank walked over the cliff...  But on the last wave of the retreat, it was sure hard as the tank was not able to pull off the abominations from me so I had 2 in my face for 45s or so spamming heals like mad to stay alive.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 13, 2009, 06:06:38 PM
It's making me consider reinstalling. Running instances was my favorite part of the game, and difficulty putting groups together drove me to PvP. Not necessarily a deep longing to go back and play that will make me do so, but it's a move in the right direction.

My family are going to miss me, but I'm in a better place now.  Wearing Tier 9 pants.

Seriously, this is the best this game has ever been.  Resub and herb Feralas while earning a new piece of tier gear every few days.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 14, 2009, 01:38:37 AM
As I see it the opening event is more of a DPS check than the pursuit, but different strokes eh.
Agreed, if you had a finite time before the next wave spawned to kill the first wave (ala TotGC Beasts fight) but I haven't really noticed that being an issue in my groups.  It may happen, but I've never seen it even with a few 2k DPSers in the party.

I healed this as a druid today.  Stressful at times, but not truly difficult.  Only wiped twice because a dumbass pulled aggro before the tank on wave 9 (me) and on the retreat because the tank walked over the cliff...  But on the last wave of the retreat, it was sure hard as the tank was not able to pull off the abominations from me so I had 2 in my face for 45s or so spamming heals like mad to stay alive.
Actually, you do have a finite time between spawns.  Works on almost exactly the same concept as Violet Hold.  If all the mobs are not dead within a certain time frame, the next wave will spawn anyway.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on December 14, 2009, 04:56:00 AM
I'm really enjoying the cross server dungeon LFG.  Like many have said, it was the time it took to form a group that prevented me from doing heroics, and now I can queue up and go about my business.  The only aspect I don't enjoy is that you can't queue for battlegrounds and dungeons at the same time.  If Blizzard removed that and simply removed me from one queue whenever a dungeon or a battle ground launched, that would be awesome.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on December 14, 2009, 07:10:54 AM
Echoing that the new LFG tool is pretty much the awesomest thing ever. If I want to do an instance, I just hit random heroic as tank/healer and 3 seconds later I'm already inside. Sure, if I'm playing dps it takes longer (~5-6 mins), but that way I can check auctions, maybe do a daily quest, do some mining/herbing, etc. and it's still way less downtime than it was pre-patch. Then I can buy phat lewts with the badges, woo!

My leveling guildies like it too, and have actually done some lowbie instances nobody ever does on alliance. (Me, I'm not leveling another character, not before cataclysm :p)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on December 14, 2009, 08:17:38 AM
I'm absolutely loving the LFG tool, with the side note that I've had a ton of trouble using it to do specific instances. It's amazing for badge farming fun, and I'd imagine it makes lower level instances far more doable than just praying your own leveling range is online and in lfg.

But for 80s? I've had a lot of fun with it for the bit I've logged in. I've yet to see the new instances though :(


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 14, 2009, 08:20:52 AM
I love the tool; I just wish it'd stop killing my pet when zoning me in.  I think anytime your pet is tucked away (ie on a mount or during flight) it doesn't bother to re-summon.  I usually take this for granted and it's taken me a boss or more to notice (it's hard to notice the damn imp sometimes).

Also, any tailors notice that lightweave is just proccing for no apparent reason?  I'm just running around Dalaran getting lightweave procs while doing inscription research or the cooking daily.

And yah, major /facepalm moment for me: I didn't realize you could turn in triumph badges straight for tier 9.  I probably wasted at least thirty getting my tier 8 robe for the 2 piece bonus.  Well, at least I'll have that bonus while I my hour a night starts decking me out in tier 9.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on December 14, 2009, 08:28:05 AM
Ahhhhh, is THAT what happened ??

I was blaming my fucking Fel Doggy !!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on December 14, 2009, 08:43:48 AM
I love the tool; I just wish it'd stop killing my pet when zoning me in.  I think anytime your pet is tucked away (ie on a mount or during flight) it doesn't bother to re-summon.  I usually take this for granted and it's taken me a boss or more to notice (it's hard to notice the damn imp sometimes).

Also, any tailors notice that lightweave is just proccing for no apparent reason?  I'm just running around Dalaran getting lightweave procs while doing inscription research or the cooking daily.

And yah, major /facepalm moment for me: I didn't realize you could turn in triumph badges straight for tier 9.  I probably wasted at least thirty getting my tier 8 robe for the 2 piece bonus.  Well, at least I'll have that bonus while I my hour a night starts decking me out in tier 9.

From the prior comments, I'd say you're a Warlock.

Lightweave now procs off Fel Armor tics, hence the random procs when you're just walking around.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 14, 2009, 08:56:29 AM
And yah, major /facepalm moment for me: I didn't realize you could turn in triumph badges straight for tier 9.  I probably wasted at least thirty getting my tier 8 robe for the 2 piece bonus.  Well, at least I'll have that bonus while I my hour a night starts decking me out in tier 9.

It's the same for T10 and Frost Emblems.

The new LFG tool makes getting heroics so quick and painless (and you get 2 emblems as a bonus for completion) that getting full T9 will not be too arduous I suspect.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AcidCat on December 14, 2009, 09:08:37 AM
I am at a complete loss when it comes to what to do with these emblems/badges, I guess I will have to do some research now that I may be collecting a few.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on December 14, 2009, 09:12:49 AM
I am at a complete loss when it comes to what to do with these emblems/badges, I guess I will have to do some research now that I may be collecting a few.

That's exactly my feeling on it.  I had never bothered to look at the Tier 8/Tier 9/emblem turn in system.  However, since it's now so quick to run multiple instances in a single evening, it's a much more achievable goal.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 14, 2009, 09:58:07 AM
Here's what you can get with badges:

triumph - base level tier 9 (ilevel 232, yes all 5 pieces), non-tier but higher level shoulder and/or helmet (245). 245 trinkets, 245 ring for each spec, 245 libram/totem/sigil, 245 ranged slot for warrior tank, dps wand, agi thrown weapon.

Conquest - non-tier legs, belt, gloves (226), tier 8 helm/chestpiece, 226 librams/etc

Valor - cloak/ring (213), boots and bracers (213), tier 7.5 legs/shoulders (213)

Heroism - healer/tank shield (200), offhand sword (200), trinkets (still really fucking good btw), tier 7.0 chest/gloves, uncut epic gems, heirlooms.

I recommend buying 4/5 of your tier 9, then either the 245 shoulders or helm, then rings/trinkets, then whatever else.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 14, 2009, 10:56:45 AM
Re: HHoR, the total amount of group dps required to get through the run away! part is indeed a bit higher than it is for F&M, mostly because of the total hp of the monsters in the last wave, and because the slower you are at killing the first waves, the closer the lich king is to you when you start each of the next ones, and the less time you have before his City of Heroes Tsoo cyclone kills you.

Re: the LFG tool:

I used it for a few leveling dungeons to try it out last night. Had a couple mid 60s runs go very well on my ret pally (Underbog and Slave Pens) but it is worth noting the ilvl on the reward items is sort of bugged in the 60-70 range; both times I got ilvl 64 items which to me says they forgot to build in the Outlands ilvl jump to the rewards. One of these was kind of lolworthy in the fact that me+the tank accounted for 78% of the damage dealt by the group...

I also tried some mid 70s runs on my mage; those went pretty well with the exception of the first one, where our tank ported away to respec, couldn't get back in, and then one of the other people in the group started the event and ported out to Stormwind, leaving the remaining 3 of us to die.  :oh_i_see: So yes, it is possible to grief people with this system, at least if Violet Hold is the dungeon. If it hadn't been a triggered event with no place to hide it wouldn't really have been an issue. Note that characters in the 70s don't get the 'bag of random blue item' for a reward; you get 2 triumphs for the first run and then just gold, like anyone else doing random normal dungeons.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 14, 2009, 01:44:27 PM
So I resubbed about week before this latest patch and RAFd my way up to 25ish.  Now that I'm to far ahead of the trial account I've settled into slowmo leveling with a 10% boost from heirlooms.

This LFD tool is fantastic.  It makes leveling almost bareable again.  I've ran stockades, gnomer, RFK etc today and the exp is pretty good, you get a goodie bag at the end and some other loots.  I usually can't do anything inbetween dungeons because they pop so quickly.

My only problem is do i know use my 3kish gearscore dps DK to grind emblems for my heirloom shoulders?  or don't waste my time and keep leveling via the LFD tool?

Hmmm... Oh well.

fake edit:
I just got an idea where I can grind out my professions in between running dungeons.  This will save me a lot of time I think in the end.  Rather than getting burned out at level 60/70/80 grinding out professions, I'll just do it now. 

I'm thinking inscription.

Also, when do you think we'll see crossserver auction houses?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 14, 2009, 02:54:19 PM
Think you can get those heirloom shoulders from the Champion's Seals you get from the Argent Tournament dailys.  I wouldn't waste Triumph badges on heirloom loot unless you really didn't need it or you don't plan on every playing that guy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 14, 2009, 03:21:26 PM
No, I don't plan on playing him anytime soon, at least not in this expansion.

Those dailys though.  It would take way too long for me to do it to make it worth while.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on December 14, 2009, 04:57:59 PM
Wait for WG buff, run pugs with DK, use stone keeper tokens to buy WG heirloom shoulders. Voila!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 14, 2009, 06:46:44 PM
We did Marrowgar and Lady Deathwhisper tonight:

Marrowgar - Pretty simple once we had seen the fight; effectively 2-shot this (lost one attempt because of healers getting impaled/dc and not healing the tank). Basically the fight comes down to two things, killing the spikes fast and letting the tanks get Marrowgar under control after bone storm. I was healing on the shaman and basically didn't move much during bone storm unless targeted by flames or such, and so I just spammed riptide and CH. The damage was much more manageable than I had expected.

Deathwhisper - Took us quite a few attempts to get her sorted, mainly due to learning the adds. Switching to 2 healers, 6 DPS helped in the end as we stopped having overlaps of waves (getting the ranged switching onto the physical immune dudes helped). Lost two people due to our OT being shockingly bad and not holding aggro in P2, otherwise pretty straightforward once you have seen it through. It's an interesting fight that demands quick reflexes and thinking on your feet, and damn those lumpy dudes hit like a freight train. Otherwise fun though.

Overall I liked it. The only annying thing were the giant skeletons which spawned when you hit a trap in the trash. Hopefully we can learn where these are to avoid them, but if your raid doesn't have a rogue these seem uneccesarily annoying. Was interesting to see Chill of the Throne, I think the effect works overall. Damage was a bit less spiky (with exceptions), and healing was more interesting.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 14, 2009, 06:48:44 PM
We lost essentially 4 out of 6 hours of total raiding time between Friday and Saturday due to horrific lag.

We got Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, and the Airship Battle down but only got to put in a few good attempts on Deathbringer. :/


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 14, 2009, 08:21:20 PM
I'm feeling the gap in my full 10 man gear walking into the place. Even with 4-5, 25 man upgrades on my tank, I still feel like they have ramped up the damage a good bit. This is probably a good thing as the upgrades are a pretty huge jump, so there is certainly a challenge with these fights early on.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 14, 2009, 09:01:52 PM
I'm feeling the gap in my full 10 man gear walking into the place. Even with 4-5, 25 man upgrades on my tank, I still feel like they have ramped up the damage a good bit. This is probably a good thing as the upgrades are a pretty huge jump, so there is certainly a challenge with these fights early on.
Definitely.  The 10-m is not too bad, but the 25-m is a pretty big step up.  I am sure in the coming months once everyone is geared decently in 264 gear, it won't be as much of a challenge as it is now.  Alot of it is also still learning the fights.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on December 14, 2009, 09:31:26 PM
Marrowgar is mostly patchwerk, it'll become very trivial with better gear.  Deathwhisper is just a tard tank check (I'm downright pissed at our tanks in 25 now that I've tanked it on 10).  Gunship is a snooze fest now and will become a source of increasing rage as the weeks pass (WHOOPS RETARD TANK DIDN'T JUMP BACK IN TIME, WIPE IT UP).  Saurfang is ok, the first half is nap time for everyone but the ranged DPS, then the healers have to pay attention unless you use the 'let two die' strat then they don't.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 15, 2009, 02:30:35 AM
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand nerfed

Quote
Lord Marrowgar will now do significantly less melee damage in both the 10 player normal and 10 player heroic difficulty.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 15, 2009, 03:31:33 AM
Marrowgar is mostly patchwerk, it'll become very trivial with better gear.  Deathwhisper is just a tard tank check (I'm downright pissed at our tanks in 25 now that I've tanked it on 10).  Gunship is a snooze fest now and will become a source of increasing rage as the weeks pass (WHOOPS RETARD TANK DIDN'T JUMP BACK IN TIME, WIPE IT UP).  Saurfang is ok, the first half is nap time for everyone but the ranged DPS, then the healers have to pay attention unless you use the 'let two die' strat then they don't.
In all Fairness, Lady Deathwhisper is like EASILY 10x harder on 25 man then on 10 man.  In my 10 man group, put together with a bunch of old friends and a couple of pugs, we made our way fairly quickyl through almost everything in 10 (1 shot marrowgar), 2 shot Deathwhisper, 3 shot the airship battle (first wipe due to someone suggesting a strat we heard that only really works in 25 man version, second wipe due to a tank (me) accidently jetpacking into the void between ships), and got Saurfang on about the 3rd shot, after fixing a few issues with positioning and removing my Maul glyph so i wouldnt constantly keep aggroing the Fleshbeast things.

As to deathwhisper, 10 man is a joke.  If you cant manage to kill the 3 adds and still have enough time for about 10-15 seconds of pure dps on the shield, something is wrong.  In 25 man however, shit gets downright chaotic, with 7 adds instead of 3, random Mind Controlls, and adds having a LOT more chances to throw down with empowerments / resurections etc.  Tanking Deathwhisper in 10 is a total snore fest.  In 25, its a nightmare i wouldnt even want to try (I was boomkin for the 25 man attempts the pug i was in did, didnt end well).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 15, 2009, 03:34:25 AM
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand nerfed

Quote
Lord Marrowgar will now do significantly less melee damage in both the 10 player normal and 10 player heroic difficulty.

Which is pretty stupid, considering that even before the nerf, i could solo tank him with decent success for upwards of 30-40 seconds (very low health DK tank was Offtank in my group, he died once, and i managed to tank Marrowgar for a full cycle between bonestorms untill i could battle-rez him during one storm cast.  Guess for our next 10 man, we will just stack ranged dps and have me solo tank it for the entire fight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 15, 2009, 03:37:44 AM
Airship battle was almost trivially easy in 25 man.  It's amazing how one fight (Deathwhisper) can have you frustrated for a few days before you beat it, then the very next one goes like clockwork on the first attempt.

Saurfang wasn't terribly hard, either.  Managing the blood points he accumulates is the tricky part.  On our 5th attempt we decided to just let the marked people die, and we started chewing him down from 50% on each successive attempt.  

It seems every time the mark deals damage, he gains points, so healing the marked person makes no sense.  If they live, they spam blood points, which lets him mark another person, spamming points 2x as fast, until there's 3, 4, 5.. it gets out of control.  We were hitting 50% then his health would go back up and he'd be spamming that damn mark every 4-5 seconds near the end.

Also, having 2 pally tanks makes the fight a bit tougher than it should be.  When the adds spawn, their Hammer of the Righteous would always pull 2 of the beasts on to them, spamming more blood points for Saurfang.  One of the Warlocks had to spam Shadow Fury/Flame as soon as the adds spawned to counter this.. then run like hell. Tanks w/o AOE abilities as their primary attack will make life easier on their raids.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 15, 2009, 03:39:13 AM
Apparently he doesn't gain blood power from hits that are absorbed, so gogo PW:S


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 15, 2009, 03:46:19 AM
Yeah we heard that too but had no disc priest on the run on Sunday.   Hell, the only priest we had was a new applicant for Shadow, his holy/ disc set isn't up to par.

WTB Priests.   I blame Alleria formerly being where the #1 us guild was. We've got stupid raid times as a server because of it due to all the former transfers who made a home there.  For a CST server there's a ton of guilds who raid until 2am EST and very few who go only until 11 or 12, which is where all the priests I've known hailed from.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 15, 2009, 03:59:23 AM
Apparently he doesn't gain blood power from hits that are absorbed, so gogo PW:S
I suppose this would make sense, since according to the tool tip he only gains blood power when he or his blood beasts "deals damage" with an ability or spell, so if the damage is fully Absorbed, it probably does not trigger a stack, since no actual damage was taken.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 15, 2009, 11:09:57 AM
Airship battle was almost trivially easy in 25 man.  It's amazing how one fight (Deathwhisper) can have you frustrated for a few days before you beat it, then the very next one goes like clockwork on the first attempt.

Saurfang wasn't terribly hard, either.  Managing the blood points he accumulates is the tricky part.  On our 5th attempt we decided to just let the marked people die, and we started chewing him down from 50% on each successive attempt.  

It seems every time the mark deals damage, he gains points, so healing the marked person makes no sense.  If they live, they spam blood points, which lets him mark another person, spamming points 2x as fast, until there's 3, 4, 5.. it gets out of control.  We were hitting 50% then his health would go back up and he'd be spamming that damn mark every 4-5 seconds near the end.

Also, having 2 pally tanks makes the fight a bit tougher than it should be.  When the adds spawn, their Hammer of the Righteous would always pull 2 of the beasts on to them, spamming more blood points for Saurfang.  One of the Warlocks had to spam Shadow Fury/Flame as soon as the adds spawned to counter this.. then run like hell. Tanks w/o AOE abilities as their primary attack will make life easier on their raids.

AFAIK he heals like 10% or more when someone with a mark dies, which is why you heal them.  Of course I wasn't paying much attention since as DPS my job is nuke big guy/nuke little guys but I'm pretty sure that is the deal with the marks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 15, 2009, 02:59:12 PM
AFAIK he heals like 10% or more when someone with a mark dies, which is why you heal them.  Of course I wasn't paying much attention since as DPS my job is nuke big guy/nuke little guys but I'm pretty sure that is the deal with the marks.
Yeah, that was our problem on 25-m.  We got him to 15% and then like 3-4 people died in rapid succession and he was back at almost 50% health.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 15, 2009, 03:07:10 PM
He heals 5% when someone dies.  We have the DPS to get him to 70% or so prior to the first mark, provided we blow heroisim right after the pull.  It was healing through the marks, plus not having a way to absorb them (disc priest) that killed us.  In the exact fashion Selby just mentioned, no less.  3-4 dead very quickly and you wind up losing enough dps or healers on top of him being healed that it's a wipe.

Doing it our way, the first player dies at about 65%, then the next mark is cast when Saur is about 45-50%, then he'll get one more off about 15-20%.  If one happened in the last 10-13% we were going to heal through it, because we would finish him off before he had enough points to cast another.

It works for us, and we'll alter it if we pick up a disc priest, sure, but after we changed the strat it was only 3 more attempts before he was dead.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 15, 2009, 03:42:13 PM
It's (probably) not intended to work that way.  I would not be surprised if Blizzard didn't up the % of health he regains when a player dies, so as to stop that particular tactic.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 15, 2009, 05:45:36 PM
It's an interesting fight that demands quick reflexes and thinking on your feet, and damn those lumpy dudes hit like a freight train.

Nnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

That is seriously the thing we lack most in our raids.  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 15, 2009, 05:51:53 PM
Nah, don't worry. Our DPS seemed to get the hang of what to hit and what not to hit after 7 or so wipes :p


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 15, 2009, 05:58:25 PM
If one person just straight up is incapable of not sucking or learning or retaining, will the rest of the raid be able to give them a piggyback ride through it?

Basically we have a really sweet man who is on morphine (he's bedridden due to a work-related injury from a long time ago) and he just cannot think fast, and he rarely retains anything. Which is understandable, but makes raiding with him ... exciting. And we're a buncha softies that keep him around in raids anyway.  :why_so_serious:


EDIT: He is obviously not the only derpderpderp person on our raids (we're all capable of derpage  :drillf: ) but he OF COURSE has a really high attendance so I always feel like I should factor him in.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tannhauser on December 15, 2009, 06:19:10 PM
Just tell him the wrong time for the raid.  When he asks what's going on tell him he's on drugs and must have mixed up the times.
Then see if he'll mail you some of that morphine.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 15, 2009, 07:51:47 PM
If one person just straight up is incapable of not sucking or learning or retaining, will the rest of the raid be able to give them a piggyback ride through it?
Until you guys are decked out in gear from the instance or just flat out great at 9 or 24 manning content, no.  There really aren't any ways to piggy back people who can't think quickly or react to get out of situations where problems are caused.  Some fights just flat out end up with someone who can't move or think quickly wiping the raid or causing major issues (think Icehowl on TotC-10\25).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 15, 2009, 08:10:43 PM
He DID manage Icehowl alright. If it's that level of quickness, where we can shriek him into compliance, that would probably be OK. But the twins fight broke his brain completely.

On the one hand, I like that the raids are challenging and that you can't really have any slackers. On the other, MAN it sucks sometimes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 15, 2009, 08:23:39 PM
But the twins fight broke his brain completely.
He'd probably be okay on the first boss and the 3rd if you keep him on the gunship.  The 2nd boss and the 4th boss are probably going to be major issues.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 16, 2009, 03:29:56 AM
If one person just straight up is incapable of not sucking or learning or retaining, will the rest of the raid be able to give them a piggyback ride through it?

Basically we have a really sweet man who is on morphine (he's bedridden due to a work-related injury from a long time ago) and he just cannot think fast, and he rarely retains anything. Which is understandable, but makes raiding with him ... exciting. And we're a buncha softies that keep him around in raids anyway.  :why_so_serious:


EDIT: He is obviously not the only derpderpderp person on our raids (we're all capable of derpage  :drillf: ) but he OF COURSE has a really high attendance so I always feel like I should factor him in.

If he's DPS just stick him on the boss. With 6 DPS we used a 3/3 split for boss and adds. The hunter stayed on the boss the whole time, the two mages had to switch to kill the big skeleton adds (physical immune) and everything else was handled by the rogue, ret and boomkin. Nuking the boss is probably the easiest thing ever, especially if you're not having to switch. All he has do to is dodge death and decay (which you have about 2-3s to do).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 16, 2009, 09:01:43 AM
He's an enhance shaman. The best thing about his shamaning is you NEVER KNOW when heroism is going to go off.  :awesome_for_real: That there are physical immune adds is probably for the best.

In other news, I have realised another reason the new LFG tool is fucking awesome. Before we had a lot of people who would fuss about wanting to do five mans, but were pretty useless at actually getting their shit together to do them ("We need a tank." "I can tank for you." <five minutes later> "No tanks want to do <dungeon>? :("), so they generally wouldn't actually go. Now they actually grab whoever expresses interest and hop in the queue and off they go! It makes the guild line less fussy.  :heart:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 16, 2009, 09:58:32 AM
Heck, I'm not on morphine and no one ever has a clue when I'll fire heroism off. I don't even know when I'll fire it off. It just...happens.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 16, 2009, 10:02:45 AM
Can't you guys just have him sit the bench until a boss is on farm? I'd think he'd understand given his condition. That way he can mop up once everything is pretty much idiot proof.

I've been in a guild where a similar skill level player meant you were basically doing all of the content with a handicap.  It was so nice when he stopped playing his resto druid and started playing a warlock.  Then of course, he went right back to resto druid in the next expansion.  This was a player we had to summon or res past frogger.  I guy that once died twice to void zones on KT during the same attempt.  However, he didn't have the whole "on drugs" reason for his horribleness, he was just plain bad at WoW.  

Of course, I'm the kind of player that never notices when he buffs wear off, forgets to soulstone, sometimes doesn't notice when his pet's dead, forgets he has a cookie, etc.  Of course, I don't raid, and when I did I was a lot more conscientious about that stuff.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 16, 2009, 10:09:04 AM
In other news, I have realised another reason the new LFG tool is fucking awesome. Before we had a lot of people who would fuss about wanting to do five mans, but were pretty useless at actually getting their shit together to do them ("We need a tank." "I can tank for you." <five minutes later> "No tanks want to do <dungeon>? :("), so they generally wouldn't actually go. Now they actually grab whoever expresses interest and hop in the queue and off they go! It makes the guild line less fussy.  :heart:

Yeah, as a healer the best runs have been when I complete a guild group.

On a side, side note I'd like to see either a tighter gear check for the harder random heroics (HoR) or a way to self select out of some dungeons... my anecdotal experience is that scarcity seems to pair me and an equally marginally geared tank with 3 high GS dps.  Ironically, this does not work nearly as well as a high GS Tank/Healer combo carrying marginal dps.  Bottom line: I'm the weak link and I'd be perfectly happy to stay the fuck out of HoR until I farm more badges... but the lack of Healers seems to put me in some tough spots.  Just asking for a tiny piece of granularity in my Randomness.

Side note cubed: I'm noticing a lot of DK "tanks" that have a high gearscore but die absurdly fast - see note #2 above.  It's no shock that these DPS'rs are trying to get fast groups by "tanking" in marginal gear - so I'm wondering if the Battlegroup PvP (use highest gear score for equipment _owned_) mechanic is perhaps not the right one for PvE... sure, it prevents exploits in PvP BG, but is sure screws with PvE.

Metaphysical question: is there any design change that would fix the Tank dearth issues?  I've played support roles for almost 10-years now and have no issues with the challenge and stress of healing; I'd tank too, but for the fact that I cannot get past the universal assumption that the Tank is _also_ your official tour-guide for the dungeon.  I'd happily tank if I didn't have to herd the cats and memorize every map/encounter.

edit: spelling


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 16, 2009, 10:27:26 AM
Metaphysical question: is there any design change that would fix the Tank dearth issues?  I've played support roles for almost 10-years now and have no issues with the challenge and stress of healing; I'd tank too, but for the fact that I cannot get past the universal assumption that the Tank is _also_ your official tour-guide for the dungeon.  I'd happily tank if I didn't have to heard the cats and memorize every map/encounter.

This would be hard to avoid, I think, because typically the tank is the one who has the most complicated role in terms of knowing what the monsters are going to do and how to react to them. It isn't true in every encounter, of course - sometimes you just have to sit there and push your buttons while the dps runs around doing things, but for the most part the tank is the de facto group leader simply because it is far more efficient and convenient for everyone concerned. A tank who didn't keep track of how all the different fight works would be a tank who might make the wrong response to a given stimulus, and that's typically more dangerous for the group than a DPSer who stands in fire for one too many ticks.

Now I think a completely fresh game design could avoid this problem, potentially, but the holy trinity is too ingrained into the core gameplay of WoW to do anything about it at this point.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 16, 2009, 11:01:24 AM
Can't you guys just have him sit the bench until a boss is on farm? I'd think he'd understand given his condition. That way he can mop up once everything is pretty much idiot proof.

Not really. He is really. Um. Enthusiastic. And while he acknowledges he is out of it sometimes, he uh ... overestimates his awesomeness. And honestly, I complain about him a lot, but he isn't the only dumbass, and he is at least very dedicated and very VERY on top of making sure his shit is all enchanted and gemmed correctly. Which alas, is not a high priority for some of our other people.

My guild is rad, we totally finish shit through sheer force of will.  :grin:


EDIT: As for the lack of tank issue, Ingmar said pretty much what I would've. The tank = leadur thing is one of the reasons I haven't really been doing PUGs on my tanks, because I already hafta lead raids and guild groups, and I don't really want to do it in my off times too. The other thing stopping me from doing them is I am horribly intimidated by the thought of having to tank for people who are doing SILLY HIGH dps, especially on my shittier geared tanks.  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 16, 2009, 11:03:43 AM
I certainly take your point and mostly agree... though I think you conflate reacting to an encounter with leading the group; we all learn the encounters for our specific roles (its just true that Tank/Healer mishaps are costlier sooner).

My question is more along the lines of fixing this problem: who here knows this boss?  I'll freely admit that I'm the guy who's run all the heroics dozens of times who says, "er, remind me again."

What about something like an "encounter map"... it starts blank and boss characteristics, spells, weaknesses are unlocked as you discover them.  The map could then be annotated with various comments/strategies and then shared on everyone's screen... more like the map window that Deadly Boss Mods.  That way anyone experienced could help lead the group and folks could just focus on their roles.  I see this as a bigger issue for the general population than for well organized guilds on vent.  Still, something to make being a tank less than a temporary guild master might help raise the number of tanks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
I should have included the other main factor in that WoW doesn't have a 'pulling' role that exists outside of tanking, really. Thinking about it, the pull in other games I've played is often not done by the tank - in Midgard/DAOC, the pulling/pacesetting was always done by a shaman or healer, until we got PBAE for example - so that is probably a big factor too. The guy who is doing the pulling and controlling the pace of the group is probably also the one picking the path through the instance and just generally setting terms for things.

The idea of the game remembering boss abilites for you and such once you've seen them is a nice idea, especially for "old" guys like me.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 16, 2009, 11:12:31 AM
Metaphysical question: is there any design change that would fix the Tank dearth issues?  I've played support roles for almost 10-years now and have no issues with the challenge and stress of healing; I'd tank too, but for the fact that I cannot get past the universal assumption that the Tank is _also_ your official tour-guide for the dungeon.  I'd happily tank if I didn't have to heard the cats and memorize every map/encounter.

Nope.  The tank has to be up to par in gear, but also know the ins-and-outs.  There sadly isn't a way around it.  I'd take a tank who knows the dungeon before one that is slightly undergeared.  I'm generally the leader when I queue up for dungeons.  Add to that the fact that you need a certain amount of situational awareness:  can I tank this, am I going the right way, how much mana does the healer have, is anyone else taking damage, do I feel like saving them, big attack coming, that dps is going to pull, etc.

I'm a Prot/Holy Paladin (I just hit 31K mana in my healing set last night!) so I feel your pain somewhat.  Prot is my main spec just because I like being able to control the pace of the run for the most part.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 16, 2009, 11:29:50 AM
EDIT: As for the lack of tank issue, Ingmar said pretty much what I would've. The tank = leadur thing is one of the reasons I haven't really been doing PUGs on my tanks, because I already hafta lead raids and guild groups, and I don't really want to do it in my off times too. The other thing stopping me from doing them is I am horribly intimidated by the thought of having to tank for people who are doing SILLY HIGH dps, especially on my shittier geared tanks.  :ye_gods:

Well, that's rather my point... folks don't mind the role of tanking, its the social dynamic that kills it for many.  Surely there is a way to design around this.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on December 16, 2009, 12:40:29 PM
Metaphysical question: is there any design change that would fix the Tank dearth issues?
-Reduce the skill necessary to tank even more.  I'm talking making threat so over the top that you can literally press random buttons and hold aggro on every mob in a pull, even if every single overgeared DPS is opening up on a different  mob.
-Remove tank gear, all of a tank's avoidance and health comes from talents, not the gear itself.

That's about all I can think of.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 16, 2009, 01:04:02 PM
One of the biggest requirements to be moderately good at tanking is situational awareness.  I've been healing some instance PUGs with my level 7x druid, and I find myself tanking stray mobs way too often.  Usually a plate dps yoinks them off of me eventually.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: El Gallo on December 16, 2009, 01:04:46 PM
I'd tank /lfd pugs if they had triple specs. Or if they just got rid of glyphs or made them permanent or something.  I actually enjoy tanking 5- and 10-man content as a warrior, and am geared/overgeared for it just from collecting rot loots.  But I need a fury spec for raiding and an arms spec for pvp.  Between speccing tank, speccing back, and burning 6 major glyphs and a couple minors, I'm looking at over 200g to tank.  It's also a pain in the ass, even with ActionBarSaver and Talented. I'll just sit in /lfd 15 minutes until I get a dps slot to collect my 2 frost emblems.  Seriously, fuck glyphs in the ass, what a terrible concept.  But that's another thread.

There's also a lot of truth the the social stress of tanking.  If you have DBM/Bigwigs, you can sign on to a dungeon/regular-mode raid that you've never seen and chances are nobody will notice as long as you are a DPS.  Toss in a quick scan of Tankspot, MMOChamp, or even Wowhead, and you'll be fine as a healer too.  

Do that as a tank, and its a fucking nightmarish experience of ungrateful jackmonkeys screaming about how much you fucking suck because you don't know every detail of each pull in the place and 1/3 of the raid realizing that they need to log off because their cats are on fire after the first wipe.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 16, 2009, 01:05:03 PM
Metaphysical question: is there any design change that would fix the Tank dearth issues?
-Reduce the skill necessary to tank even more.  I'm talking making threat so over the top that you can literally press random buttons and hold aggro on every mob in a pull, even if every single overgeared DPS is opening up on a different  mob.
-Remove tank gear, all of a tank's avoidance and health comes from talents, not the gear itself.

That's about all I can think of.

I actually don't think that "challenge" is the problem (or better put, it's a secondary problem); as Sjofn notes, she can tank but doesn't want to tank for non-role related issues.  I'm the same way, I _can_ tank in so far as I have good gear (for heroics) and understand how it works mechanically... but just don't want the meta-role that comes with Tank.

I mean, if I had to be the therapist for every group just because I was the healer, hell... I wouldn't do that either.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 16, 2009, 01:46:55 PM
The changes to LFG have me actually interested in tanking with my protadin rather than just pvp-ing.

My dilemma:  I have *no* tank gear, other than a shitty titansteel shield.

Non-heroics are trivial enough in pvp gear (30khp, 11% dodge, 10% parry, whatever block--it's gemmed for strength, not stamina), but how much of the triumph/valor/whatever gear do I realistically need to not be shit at tanking a heroic?

Fake-edit:  I see looking at my armory profile (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scilla&n=Nerdfury) I do stil have a shitty-shit-shit blue tanking neck, but that's going away as soon as I scrounge up 10k more honor points, so it doesn't count even if it weren't trash.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 16, 2009, 02:12:25 PM
The Wrath launch heroics require iLevel ~175-187 blue gear all around for starters.  People will bitch if you bring your pvp gear, if they're plate or druid you have the luxury of telling them to fuck themselves.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on December 16, 2009, 02:23:47 PM
Well, nothing makes me bust out the tanking suit faster than running a random dungeon with a horrible tank.  Same with healing.  Hell, same with writing, too.  Man, I never wrote so much as the months after I read that first Terry Goodkind book.   :ye_gods:

Clearly I have some personality disorder called "Christ, I can do Better than That".

Tanking for heroics is pretty straightforward as long as you don't get the new ones.  Everything else is pretty simple, even Oculus and ToC.  There's not that many awful patrols like there were in most of the TBC instances where if you holy frisbee the entrance robots too soon you can all just turn around and flee. 

I also seem to be getting groups with 2 really high dps and 1 subpar, which makes me wonder if it is setting stuff up like that on purpose.  High dps means you take less hits, so that helps too.  That 10% survivability bonus (5% health, +5% healing) is also a huge bonus.

Plus, it's not like these people are from your server.  Give it a whirl!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 16, 2009, 02:25:52 PM
The Wrath launch heroics require iLevel ~175-187 blue gear all around for starters.  People will bitch if you bring your pvp gear, if they're plate or druid you have the luxury of telling them to fuck themselves.

But zero defense on the tank?  Might not be an issue for older heroics and this era of overgeared healers... but I couldn't say for certain.  Other than that, your gear is fine for regular heroics.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 16, 2009, 02:26:15 PM
EDIT: As for the lack of tank issue, Ingmar said pretty much what I would've. The tank = leadur thing is one of the reasons I haven't really been doing PUGs on my tanks, because I already hafta lead raids and guild groups, and I don't really want to do it in my off times too. The other thing stopping me from doing them is I am horribly intimidated by the thought of having to tank for people who are doing SILLY HIGH dps, especially on my shittier geared tanks.  :ye_gods:

Well, that's rather my point... folks don't mind the role of tanking, its the social dynamic that kills it for many.  Surely there is a way to design around this.

Yeah, my quote up there was just me saying "I agree" in a longwinded fashion. Having to be the leader is probably the biggest factor behind tanks lagging behind, especially since people probably PUG as a break.

I can't quite explain why I'm a giant puss this expansion about tanking for PUGs. I tanked for PUGs on my druid all the time in TBC, and it's not like people didn't expect me to tell me what to do then. And it's seriously not me thinking "ugh, they're so terrible." It's me thinking "ugh, I'M so terrible, I don't want to be one of those tanks."


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on December 16, 2009, 02:44:19 PM
The changes to LFG have me actually interested in tanking with my protadin rather than just pvp-ing.

My dilemma:  I have *no* tank gear, other than a shitty titansteel shield.

step 1: Get 1k gold
Step 2: Find a blacksmith, get him to make the entire tempered saronite set and Daunting hands/legs.
Step 3: Buy some BOEs and rep pieces.
Step 4: Get cheap def enchants on every piece you can

Done.  You're a tank.  Go here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/41986-ciders-easy-540-defense-gear-guide.html) if you more than that.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 16, 2009, 03:06:49 PM
In response to all this tank talk, that is the only role I enjoy filling. It's the only one that makes you at least be a little on your toes. DPS is all dick waving, and their favorie fights are ones where they don't have to move and just get to spam their shit over and over, and I never understood how anyone who wasn't an IRS agent would derive fun out of looking at green bars go down then doing something about restoring them (not sure if it means anything, but all four of the healers in my guild are chicks).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 16, 2009, 03:37:06 PM
Tanking CAN be fun.. so long as you don't have that idiot ret pally in your group, running RF and bitching that you're not holding aggro.

I, too, have noticed the DK "squishytank" problem on my healer.  It makes me try that much harder when I swap into tank role on Merusk, trying to make up for the many, many, MANY failure tanks I keep running in to.   As I said elsewhere, I need an ignore list longer than 50.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 16, 2009, 04:46:16 PM
I am horribly intimidated by the thought of having to tank for people who are doing SILLY HIGH dps, especially on my shittier geared tanks.  :ye_gods:
Define "silly high DPS" for me =)  My mage does 4000-4500 in most heroics these days, and very rarely has a problem with yanking aggro off of tanks unless I am after a mob that the tank hasn't seen yet.  I assume that any competent tank in decent (heroic) gear can handle my spell rotation without much issue.  If they have troubles, I can reduce the amount of spells I put into it.  And if I have to wand or cast Arcane Blast and Fire Blast only to avoid yanking aggro, the tank is doing something wrong.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 16, 2009, 04:57:50 PM
Reran ICC10 tonight, one shot Marrogar and Deathwhisper (she's a lot easier once your DPS have wrapped their brains around what the adds do). As RL I actually cocked up a bit by calling for all DPS on the boss at 7% mana, only to have the boss detach 0.5s after a new wave of adds. Thankfully we had a pretty strong group and the DPS killed the adds which one of the tanks picked up and we then got to killing the boss.

Gunship is really fun, but remember to acquire and equip your jetpacks before starting the event. We lost one attempt because we started it and were then unable to cross to the other side. We lost another to people enthusiastically jumping into the void, and got it on the third go (our first proper attempt). Only downside was that the loot chest wasn't interactive, so we had to ticket for loot. The kill was a bit messy, but I think we can polish it up by having the healers knowing where they are going. One healer, one tank and one (GOOD) DPS seems enough to do the cross over, but we had a few close calls with the enemy leader who starts hitting like a psycopath pretty quickly. Overall though a really fun an innovative fight.

We one shot saurfang blind. Having a disc priest seemed to help, but we did get three people with marks. Running three healers we just kept them alive. Earthbind didn't seem to do much, and we didn't really pull the beasts off the melee. I suspect we could do this much better, but we'll have to see. Apparently also HoP removes Mark of the Fallen champion, which seems a tad cheesy, but who knows. This is probably the most boring fight in here until he frenzies, then it's marginally interesting for the healers. Consider this fight to be Patchwerk: The ICC Edition and you should be fine.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 16, 2009, 05:06:50 PM
But zero defense on the tank?

Resilience still reduces chance to be crit, he actually has significant amounts of mitigation due to strength and iLevel 213-226 armour.  He's fine, switching to blues would be a clear downgrade.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 17, 2009, 12:05:37 AM
I am horribly intimidated by the thought of having to tank for people who are doing SILLY HIGH dps, especially on my shittier geared tanks.  :ye_gods:
Define "silly high DPS" for me =)  My mage does 4000-4500 in most heroics these days, and very rarely has a problem with yanking aggro off of tanks unless I am after a mob that the tank hasn't seen yet.  I assume that any competent tank in decent (heroic) gear can handle my spell rotation without much issue.  If they have troubles, I can reduce the amount of spells I put into it.  And if I have to wand or cast Arcane Blast and Fire Blast only to avoid yanking aggro, the tank is doing something wrong.

That's a lot higher than the dps I usually tank for (in heroics, anyway). I just ... don't know how well I would do with the occassional DPSer that is hitting 7k. I would probably be fine but I dunno for sure and for some stupid, stupid reason I am intensely paranoid about being the shitty tank people bitch about when they're trading "oh my God, shittiest group ever" stories. I don't know why, I didn't used to give a shit!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 17, 2009, 03:11:56 AM
I am horribly intimidated by the thought of having to tank for people who are doing SILLY HIGH dps, especially on my shittier geared tanks.  :ye_gods:
Define "silly high DPS" for me =)  My mage does 4000-4500 in most heroics these days, and very rarely has a problem with yanking aggro off of tanks unless I am after a mob that the tank hasn't seen yet.  I assume that any competent tank in decent (heroic) gear can handle my spell rotation without much issue.  If they have troubles, I can reduce the amount of spells I put into it.  And if I have to wand or cast Arcane Blast and Fire Blast only to avoid yanking aggro, the tank is doing something wrong.

That's a lot higher than the dps I usually tank for (in heroics, anyway). I just ... don't know how well I would do with the occassional DPSer that is hitting 7k. I would probably be fine but I dunno for sure and for some stupid, stupid reason I am intensely paranoid about being the shitty tank people bitch about when they're trading "oh my God, shittiest group ever" stories. I don't know why, I didn't used to give a shit!
Most of the big ticket dps classes wont ever hit a true 7k dps number in a heroic outside of boss fights, because the trash just dies too fast for them to rev up a proper rotation (barring stuff like decked out arcane mages blowing their wad on single trash mobs for the lulz).  And inflated DPS numbers on trash usually wont matter in the long run, because most of the time the damage is spread over multiple sources, so they have less chance of pulling off you.   Of course, there is always that one guy who has the magical nack for finding the ONE mob you are generating the least threat on and dumping everything he has into it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 17, 2009, 03:37:42 AM
I enjoy letting that guy die as a healer.

Also, if you notice the problem, just say "hey I'm not decked out like you are, please hold back a bit. Otherwise this will take longer than it should because you'll be getting rezzed every pull."   I did it for a tank that was in ilevel 187/ 200 blues surrounded by a group of 245 DPS mages and a pally.  "Hey, the tank is in ilevel 187 blues and 200 purples.  Please hold back because I'm not geared enough to heal a mage tank, thx!"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 17, 2009, 05:38:21 AM
But zero defense on the tank?

Resilience still reduces chance to be crit, he actually has significant amounts of mitigation due to strength and iLevel 213-226 armour.  He's fine, switching to blues would be a clear downgrade.

I did not know that it translated back to PvE... golly, it's almost like they have two totally different games that prevents one side from enjoying the other.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on December 17, 2009, 06:11:49 AM
I never understood how anyone who wasn't an IRS agent would derive fun out of looking at green bars go down then doing something about restoring them (not sure if it means anything, but all four of the healers in my guild are chicks).

I enjoy healing for reasons that have nothing to do with the mechanics of healing.  I enjoy playing a healer because you feel like an integral part of the team.  Most DPS can be easily replaced.  The healer/tank represent the core of the group and will usually determine success or failure of a run.  Granted, I haven't had much grouping experience in WoW, but I've played a healer in the endgame of nearly every other title for this reason.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 17, 2009, 08:24:23 AM
Saurfang...   :angryfist:

We downed him in a few tries last week, but this week... not so much.

A Disc priest is pretty much required for 25 man.  Without one, we wiped for around an hour.  Never managed to get him below 14%, always ended up with runaway marks at the end of the fight, which meant damage on marked people outpaced healer output, thus resulting in marked people dying, and Saurfang getting healed.

Our disc priest logged in.  Someone had to leave.  Ten minutes later, Saurfang was down.

Really really annoyed with this fight right now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 17, 2009, 09:10:30 AM
Saurfang...   :angryfist:

We downed him in a few tries last week, but this week... not so much.

A Disc priest is pretty much required for 25 man.  Without one, we wiped for around an hour.  Never managed to get him below 14%, always ended up with runaway marks at the end of the fight, which meant damage on marked people outpaced healer output, thus resulting in marked people dying, and Saurfang getting healed.

Our disc priest logged in.  Someone had to leave.  Ten minutes later, Saurfang was down.

Really really annoyed with this fight right now.

Was your disc priest able to roll bubbles across the entire raid in 25 man?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 17, 2009, 09:11:28 AM
I did not know that it translated back to PvE... golly, it's almost like they have two totally different games that prevents one side from enjoying the other.

They were actually considering making it that way, however when they changed resilience to have a x%  damage reduction instead of periodic damage they changed that effect to not work in PvE.  So resilience works if you need to cap -crit%, but it doesn't have the dodge/parry/block/miss so it's an inferior stat.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 17, 2009, 09:13:45 AM
Was your disc priest able to roll bubbles across the entire raid in 25 man?

You don't have to roll it over the whole raid. Shielding the tanks, melee and targets with boiling blood or blood nova is enough. Anyone who isn't getting hit isn't a concern.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 17, 2009, 09:33:21 AM
Quote from:
The Looking For Group item level requirement for Halls of Reflection has been raised to match the difficulty of the encounters.

Glad I got my HOR achievement... wonder if I'll qualify in the future; it was definitely a stressful run.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Evildrider on December 17, 2009, 10:28:42 AM
Quote from:
The Looking For Group item level requirement for Halls of Reflection has been raised to match the difficulty of the encounters.

Glad I got my HOR achievement... wonder if I'll qualify in the future; it was definitely a stressful run.

I will only run this with guildies.  The farthest I ever got with Pugs is the first boss.  I also think sitting in one of the side rooms is stupid.  If 2 mages are pulled, you are pretty much fucked once they get their fire crap on the ground.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kail on December 17, 2009, 10:35:04 AM
On a side, side note I'd like to see either a tighter gear check for the harder random heroics (HoR) or a way to self select out of some dungeons...

Yeah, I'd really like some kind of "How badass am I" slider that you can adjust.  I haven't run anything in Lich King except naxx 10, so I have no idea how to do anything or how my gear stacks up.  I'd rather be learning an easier instance which I don't really need gear from than wiping over and over trying to get the newest carrot, even if I can scrape past the gear check.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 17, 2009, 10:57:27 AM
Quote from:
The Looking For Group item level requirement for Halls of Reflection has been raised to match the difficulty of the encounters.

Glad I got my HOR achievement... wonder if I'll qualify in the future; it was definitely a stressful run.

I will only run this with guildies.  The farthest I ever got with Pugs is the first boss.  I also think sitting in one of the side rooms is stupid.  If 2 mages are pulled, you are pretty much fucked once they get their fire crap on the ground.

Yeah the alcoves are bad. The fight is much easier to manage in the entrance hallway.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 17, 2009, 11:12:03 AM
Was your disc priest able to roll bubbles across the entire raid in 25 man?

You don't have to roll it over the whole raid. Shielding the tanks, melee and targets with boiling blood or blood nova is enough. Anyone who isn't getting hit isn't a concern.

I'd also shield targets with Mark of the Fallen Champion, and anyone with add aggro, if possible.

The reason why Disc is key is any of those abilities give Saurfang blood points.  If damage is absorbed, he doesn't get blood points.  Our wipes had him putting out the first Mark of the Fallen Champion at around 66%, very consistently.  With the disc in the raid, the first Mark went out almost exactly at 50%.  Made the fight way more manageable.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 17, 2009, 11:39:00 AM
That matches our experience. Also good point on shielding marked players. The mechanic is actually more interesting than the fight itself, since his buff will stack faster the more people are marked, leading to people being marked more often and so on. I think our marks were at about 50%, 30% and 18% hp or thereabouts.

Quote
# Ionar, in the Halls of Lightning, will now only disperse once during the course of the fight.
# Prophet Tharon’Ja of Drak'Tharon will now only steal your flesh one time during the encounter.

Ionar was a tad tiresome with his disperse, but these hardly seemed like urgent changes that would warrant hotfixing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 17, 2009, 11:40:16 AM
They're just quality of life changes. Both of those encounters were really irritating to do with the dps levels people are at now. 1-2 GCDs and the special gimmick mechanic fires off again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 17, 2009, 11:44:34 AM
Same thing with Svala in UP.  I could almost get her to sacrifice the second she hit the ground as the only ranged DPS. 

I'm finding my DPS meters to be almost useless except for bosses.  Casting times don't work well with how hard melee hits nowadays.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 17, 2009, 11:49:47 AM
I'm hoping something similiar is done for the Herald in OK.  It can be sort of amusing to fight the mirror images back to back... but not really.

Svala isn't quite as irritating, as ranged can dps her while she's in midair.  There's also the skippable boss in OK, but I'm not sure they'd change that one.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 17, 2009, 11:52:54 AM
Anub'arak does the same thing with his burrows, but I don't see them changing that either as there's actually something interesting to do during that.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 17, 2009, 11:56:17 AM
It's true.  Anub, Svala, and Jaewhatever (boss who flies up in the air and summons an add that buffs her if you don't kill her) all have things to do while they are burrowed or flying.  Ionar was really irritating because it's simply a RUN AWAY mechanic.

I didn't really mind Theron'ja, but I'll take the change regardless.

Now if only they put in a change that allows you to push faster in HVH.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 17, 2009, 01:18:47 PM
Tharon'ja was always fun to chain taunts and make the tanks freak out  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 17, 2009, 03:56:49 PM
Saurfang...   :angryfist:

Now you see why my raid went with "let the marked targets die" the first week.  This week our Disc Priest was back from his month-long trip to Asia.  We get him for 3 weeks and then he's gone again.   The fight was much easier with the bubbles going out... and once I decided to run out when the blood beasts spawn.  Wandering Plague is a bitch and I always get aggro on one or two, along with the pally tank's HOR doing the same.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 17, 2009, 04:12:29 PM
I'm considering going with "have a disc priest and let the first marked one die" next week, to see how it works.  Our kill yesterday was touch-and-go even with bubbles everywhere.  I asked one of the holy priests to come with a disc secondary spec next week, so hopefully even if our disc is still at work, we can down Saurfang anyway.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 18, 2009, 05:34:54 AM
If you have any paladins, HoP and DI will clear the mark (I think)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 18, 2009, 06:01:53 AM
I should read patch notes if I don't want to look stupid next time.

This week I had the first post patch day I could play (project due dates the holidays and you: it's ridiculous how a holiday that's celebrated each year hits a lot of folks completely off guard).

Hell have they changed a lot of stuff.

I also wondered why vampiric touch wasn't displayed on the mobs although I kept casting it like mad... nice change btw in making it last for 30 minutes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on December 18, 2009, 06:30:48 AM
If you have any paladins, HoP and DI will clear the mark (I think)
Boiling blood (the temporary dot) yes, Mark of the Fallen Champion is permanent untill dead from what i understand.  Nothing removes it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 18, 2009, 06:33:25 AM
I also wondered why vampiric touch wasn't displayed on the mobs although I kept casting it like mad... nice change btw in making it last for 30 minutes.

Vampiric Embrace?

That was a long overdue change.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on December 18, 2009, 07:11:02 AM
I also wondered why vampiric touch wasn't displayed on the mobs although I kept casting it like mad... nice change btw in making it last for 30 minutes.

Vampiric Embrace?

That was a long overdue change.

Took me a while to get used to it being a buff now, but omg. I actually do healing when using Mind Sear, which is utterly fantastic and may even be a serious boost to raiding HoT - going to be lots of overheal during Ony whelps, for example.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 18, 2009, 07:23:10 AM
I also wondered why vampiric touch wasn't displayed on the mobs although I kept casting it like mad... nice change btw in making it last for 30 minutes.

Vampiric Embrace?

That was a long overdue change.

Took me a while to get used to it being a buff now, but omg. I actually do healing when using Mind Sear, which is utterly fantastic and may even be a serious boost to raiding HoT - going to be lots of overheal during Ony whelps, for example.

It doesn't work with mind sear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on December 18, 2009, 12:42:18 PM
If you have any paladins, HoP and DI will clear the mark (I think)
Boiling blood (the temporary dot) yes, Mark of the Fallen Champion is permanent untill dead from what i understand.  Nothing removes it.
You are wrong in an extremely important manner: Mark of the Fallen Champion lasts through death.  If you rez someone with the mark, they will rez, die, and give him another 1.5 million HP.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 18, 2009, 12:49:27 PM
I want to say I read that hand of protection will remove the mark, too. Maybe that's been hotfixed by now though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 18, 2009, 02:34:59 PM
Absolutely nothing removes Mark of the Fallen Champion, aside from the boss dying, or the encounter resetting.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 18, 2009, 03:53:26 PM
If hand of protection blocks the damage though that would be quite the help though, if used on a caster.

DI should remove it, since DI removes everything afaik.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 18, 2009, 03:54:31 PM
Oh maybe that's what I actually was reading about, thinking about it - it was someone saying "first fight where DI is good since Razorgore!" or something.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 18, 2009, 09:11:17 PM
Huh.  If DI works, that'd probably be worth it, assuming you have a warlock.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 18, 2009, 10:20:32 PM
Yeah, it's not a foolproof method. It would probably be easier to just deal with the damage or let the marked player die.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 19, 2009, 07:05:28 AM
It's true.  Anub, Svala, and Jaewhatever (boss who flies up in the air and summons an add that buffs her if you don't kill her) all have things to do while they are burrowed or flying.  Ionar was really irritating because it's simply a RUN AWAY mechanic.

I didn't really mind Theron'ja, but I'll take the change regardless.

Now if only they put in a change that allows you to push faster in HVH.

I wish they would change CoS to work like ToC... if you want the 5 minute melodramatic preamble, then you can have it... otherwise, straight to the encounter.

Fuck, that's one mouthy instance.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 19, 2009, 01:44:03 PM
I finally did the three ICC 5-mans last night, as DPS with my PvP gear and protribution spec, so that I could see how they went.  I believe I could tank them on heroic, but it would make for a grumpy healer, so I'll wait til I pick up a little badge gear.

The only issues?

1) People going "WTF" over the concept of DPS in protection spec.  

2)  We had to run the gauntlet in halls of reflection twice, after missing killing the last mob by about three seconds.  Turned out the shaman had been working his way through an ounce of weed.  We got him to focus at least a *little* attention during the second run and made it through.

*Edit* oh, and 3) Culling of Stratholme was fun once, but never make me do it again as a random non-heroic, kthanx.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 19, 2009, 05:30:36 PM
Tangent:  One of the most skilled players I've ever played with during Vanilla/ BC was always high when he was at his best.  Guy was a fantastic tank and could switch easily into being a great DPS war and was equally skilled healing and DPSing on his shaman.   One night he was a little off his game, and I asked what was up in a tell.  The reply: "Dude, rent was due so I couldn't buy a bag this week.  I'm sober and can't focus."



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 19, 2009, 06:45:41 PM
Yeah, I know people sort of like that; my brother-in-law gets stoned and becomes a house-cleaning machine, and another guy I knew would get high and just start building stuff.  Not that I advocate mixing drug use and power tools, but this guy had the knack for it.   Not sure whatever became of him, hope he's still got all his fingers and toes attached.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 19, 2009, 06:59:13 PM
I finally did the three ICC 5-mans last night, as DPS with my PvP gear and protribution spec, so that I could see how they went.  I believe I could tank them on heroic, but it would make for a grumpy healer, so I'll wait til I pick up a little badge gear.

The only issues?

1) People going "WTF" over the concept of DPS in protection spec.  
Because you have dual-spec.  DPS in...*shock* a DPS spec.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tannhauser on December 20, 2009, 04:33:21 AM
3.3 is the greatest patch evar!  No green!  I re-subbed and have been hitting the /lfd system.  I've done about 8 instances and only one broke down (someone kicked our healer).  Sure you get some avatards, but I've met some great players too.  Instances have always been my favorite part of WoW (not raids, 'nother tale) and now to get a group any time of day or night?  Awesome!

I don't know how hard this was to do technically, but every MMO should have this feature.  I thought I was done with WoW until Cataclysm but they pulled me back in again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 20, 2009, 02:55:31 PM
I finally did the three ICC 5-mans last night, as DPS with my PvP gear and protribution spec, so that I could see how they went.  I believe I could tank them on heroic, but it would make for a grumpy healer, so I'll wait til I pick up a little badge gear.

The only issues?

1) People going "WTF" over the concept of DPS in protection spec.  
Because you have dual-spec.  DPS in...*shock* a DPS spec.

Retribution is still a boring shitty spec, IMO.  I'll stick with two prot specs (one for tanking, one for DPS)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 20, 2009, 03:13:36 PM
Do you have a combat daggers rogue also?    :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 20, 2009, 08:46:00 PM
Retribution is still a boring shitty spec, IMO.  I'll stick with two prot specs (one for tanking, one for DPS)

Make one for tanking and one for healing. You obviously missed the boat on DPS, so at least make yourself a dual threat.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 20, 2009, 08:50:41 PM
I want to know what makes Prot-DPS not boring, but Ret-DPS boring. Since they both consist of the nearly identical DPS play-styles.


Judge
Single Target Strike
Multi Target Strike
Ranged Cooldown Attack
Consecrate


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on December 20, 2009, 08:52:18 PM
I want to know what makes Prot-DPS not boring, but Ret-DPS boring. Since they both consist of the nearly identical DPS play-styles.


Judge
Single Target Strike
Multi Target Strike
Ranged Cooldown Attack
Consecrate

In a combo spec, you get to be a beautiful and unique snowflake that hates math!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 20, 2009, 08:57:41 PM
You can't actually go deep enough into one tree to gain a bonus strike though, so the actual playstyle would not change.

You could be Ret-Spec and use a 1h/shield combo for an extra attack, but then you would be the boring Ret-Spec!


 :headscratch:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 21, 2009, 06:50:57 AM
You can't actually go deep enough into one tree to gain a bonus strike though, so the actual playstyle would not change.

 :headscratch:

This is what I was wondering.  You can't go far enough into Prot to Hammer and still get deep enough in Ret to get Crusader Strike or Divine Storm.  And Vice versa.

At best, keep your Prot spec and put on DPS gear.  I can't fathom whatever hybrid spec you have is worth it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 08:33:48 AM
You obviously missed the post eariler where I lamented my lack of any actual tank gear, and that I was wearing ret pvp equipment, and did give an actual armory link?

So to learn the ICC 5-man dungeons (and a few regular ones I've never done) I spent a couple days as DPS rather than tank to learn them.   Last night I just tanked them all instead.  Got a crappy 1Lvl219 tank mace, and enough badges for the iLvl245 tank libram.  Plus I made the shitty blacksmithed tank helmet.  Couple more pieces and I'll give the heroics a shot.

When I say ret is boring, it's because as ret I can DPS, and that's *all*.  I've tried it, it's lame (and there's no instant ranged attack unless you get the proc).  This way, I can tank decently well too (neither of us can heal shit).  But in the land of "must optimize for pigeonhole role derp derp" then yes, I fail.  I'm not in your l33t raid, so GTFO with that shit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 21, 2009, 08:42:02 AM
Awh you're one of those people.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 21, 2009, 08:59:26 AM
No instant ranged attack?  There's the taunt.  It has, I believe, a 30 yard range. I'm not sure why you'd need one though, unless it's for peanut butter daily time.

I  :heart: ret.  It allows me to kill mobs way faster than my holy main spec, or a prot offspec.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 09:25:00 AM
Sure, you go using the taunt for DPS; see how your tank likes that  :drillf:

Fordel mentioned a "Ranged cooldown attack".  I'm assuming he was comparing exorcism to the shield toss; shield toss is on a longer cooldown but is always instant, whereas exorcism is only instant on an art of war proc (and completely useless to cast if it isn't).

Also, is your prot offspec using tank gear?  Yeah, that's slow.  Prot in offense gear isn't that much slower than my wife's ret/holy paladin, but is much more survivable.  That survivability may be moot in larger groups, but in a PUG 5-man it's really, really handy.   Who the fuck knows what's going to happen?  Hell, I even wound up healing the Falric/Marwyn fight in HoR the other night, although that's a special case--if it didn't drop the party out of combat for a couple seconds between waves, it would never have worked.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 21, 2009, 09:46:34 AM
Fordel mentioned a "Ranged cooldown attack".  I'm assuming he was comparing exorcism to the shield toss; shield toss is on a longer cooldown but is always instant, whereas exorcism is only instant on an art of war proc (and completely useless to cast if it isn't).

You're a paladin, you have no useful range unless you are holy.  Suck it up, buttercup.

Quote
Prot in offense gear isn't that much slower ... ret/holy paladin ... more survivable ... in a PUG 5-man it's really, really handy ... wound up healing the Falric/Marwyn fight in HoR

(http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/f/fa/Doingbootwrong.jpg/450px-Doingbootwrong.jpg)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 09:53:03 AM
Only in your little world of WoW-playing short-bus robots, spanky. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 21, 2009, 10:05:39 AM
Oh, okay.  I didn't know that PuGs require a dedicated cheerleader now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 21, 2009, 10:12:12 AM
No, he's right; you ARE doing it wrong.

I could go into whys and wherefors and whatthefucks, but if your groups put up with this, then I suppose it's a moot point. You can get away with a fair amount of silly shit in 5mans these days.  



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on December 21, 2009, 10:34:55 AM
If I saw a protadin in a 5 man trying to DPS and they weren't doing more than the tank, I'd just votekick them on principle at the earliest opportunity.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 11:10:12 AM
Protribution (0/53/18) in DPS/strength gear doesn't do as much sustained DPS as ret, but it sure as shit does more than a tank in +Def/stam gear.  And we are talking 5-mans, people.  The bar for success is not. that. fucking. high.  As long as the bosses die, loot drops, and fun is had, then fuck this noise about "right" or "wrong" ways to do it.

Some of y'all sound like the mouthbreathers that stand around demanding "looking for XXX, 4500+ dps required, gear check needed, link achievement" before you can be bothered to even think about stepping into a dungeon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 21, 2009, 11:33:17 AM
DPSing in a prot spec is wasting my time. Just like the asshole that goes AFK for 10 minutes to park his car.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 21, 2009, 11:43:20 AM
I feel slightly dirty.

Just upgraded a purple i219 to purple i232 last night.

For my entire WoW career, I've been chaotically casual and only ever had, like, 4 purple items... ever.  

Heck, I think I still have a purple belt from MC; I just couldn't bring myself to destroy it... that, and, well, you never know - I might need it someday.

Don't get me wrong, I'm eating the character/loot/content progression with a long-handled spoon - I just think the colors are off... my sense of order is being challenged by all this purple loot of which I'm not really worthy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 21, 2009, 11:44:29 AM
DPSing in a prot spec is wasting my time. Just like the asshole that goes AFK for 10 minutes to park his car.

This, times 1000.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 21, 2009, 11:45:32 AM
Plugging Poly's character into Rawr, it says your maximum single target DPS using the optimal prot rotation is 2500.  Plugging the same variables into Ret except with an Argent Skeleton Crusher (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44244) yields 3953 max DPS.  Your group is losing 1500 damage per person that decides they want to be carried rather than useful.

EDIT: Completely ignoring that pretty much every fight added since ToC, and several before, have a soft enrage that will kill your entire group if it goes too long.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 21, 2009, 11:49:26 AM
I feel slightly dirty.

Just upgraded a purple i219 to purple i232 last night.


Yah, I'm one more tier 9 piece away from starting to replace the tier 8 badge gear I have.  I haven't done that since I was a bleeding edge raider during vanilla WOW upgrading my Molten Core set for the BWL stuff.

It's definitely an odd feeling and almost seems too easy.  But I'm really enjoying it.  And even when my standards have been met for being "done", I'll still likely do the daily while working on another character. It's the system I've always wanted especially since they finally stuck weapon upgrades into a non ball breaking instance.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 21, 2009, 11:50:59 AM
Yeah ret dps and prot dps aren't even in the same universe. A prot pally will deal better damage while tanking than while trying to do damage but not getting hit, I'm not sure why this is even in quesiton. The mana use alone is going to be crippling in a prot spec that isn't getting healed I would think.

The worst thing IMO is it not only screws the group out of some extra damage for no real gain, it also removes a possible source of replenishment, which really matters with a lot of the undergeared healers that are hitting instances.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 21, 2009, 12:16:41 PM
It's funny you mention replenishment because now as a spriest mind blast is cut out of the rotation with high haste builds I'm often getting people asking me where replenishment went(in 5mans at least)  I'll try and work an mb into longer fights if healers are really hurting but to me it's just funny that the only reason people used to take shadow priests is no longer even used by them.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 12:46:26 PM
I sense a common theme:  none of us gives a shit whether the other people are actually having fun, so long as it doesn't impact our own game.  That's fair enough, because I'm guilty of it too--rasix mentioned people afking; well, if I need to just get up and walk away from the computer because of my kids (ages 1 and 6), I don't give a flying fuck what it does to the group.  Whatever, kick me out. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 21, 2009, 01:00:17 PM
If one person is running some weird spec that limits their DPS, then that person is directly impacting the fun of four other people.

No big deal for most heroics.  If you can pull 1600 dps or better, no one is going to care.  The newer heroics do require better dps than that.

The cavalier attitude you're taking would be awesome if done by a healer, right?  Oh I'm in some weird ret/holy spec so I can do dailies, but I don't have beacon.  That has no real impact on any one else's fun when I'm missing a critical tool, running a bad spec, and unable to perform at the expected level, right?

Or you probably are just getting carried by people who do bother to spec, gem, enchant, and gear correctly, and they simply let you stay because it's 15 minutes until you can vote to kick someone anyway.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on December 21, 2009, 01:04:08 PM
If one person is running some weird spec that limits their DPS, then that person is directly impacting the fun of four other people.

No big deal for most heroics.  If you can pull 1600 dps or better, no one is going to care.  The newer heroics do require better dps than that.

The cavalier attitude you're taking would be awesome if done by a healer, right?  Oh I'm in some weird ret/holy spec so I can do dailies, but I don't have beacon.  That has no real impact on any one else's fun when I'm missing a critical tool, running a bad spec, and unable to perform at the expected level, right?

Or you probably are just getting carried by people who do bother to spec, gem, enchant, and gear correctly, and they simply let you stay because it's 15 minutes until you can vote to kick someone anyway.

This is the common flaw with forced grouping.  As soon as a task requires a group to complete, you now create an in-game mechanism for other players to dictate how you choose to enjoy playing.  You also provide a mechanism by which a single player can negatively impact the gameplay of as many as 24 other players.   Grouping is at its best when you are able to play with people you are familiar with and enjoy spending time with.  When this becomes impossible due to time conflicts, grouping devolves into a crapshoot that can generate fun or frustration with near equal probability. 

I like what they're trying to do with grouping.  I still would like to see some way around it for the exact same reasons you all cite in this thread. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 21, 2009, 01:05:21 PM
it's 15 minutes until you can vote to kick someone anyway.
Nah, you can vote to kick before 15min.  We had a healer DC on zone-in this morning and we were able to votekick after killing the first trash, with 11min on the timer still.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 21, 2009, 01:16:09 PM
Protribution (0/53/18) in DPS/strength gear doesn't do as much sustained DPS as ret, but it sure as shit does more than a tank in +Def/stam gear.  And we are talking 5-mans, people.  The bar for success is not. that. fucking. high.  As long as the bosses die, loot drops, and fun is had, then fuck this noise about "right" or "wrong" ways to do it.

Some of y'all sound like the mouthbreathers that stand around demanding "looking for XXX, 4500+ dps required, gear check needed, link achievement" before you can be bothered to even think about stepping into a dungeon.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eredar&n=Divinefury

I use a 0/53/18 spec.  See what the armory says there?  Protection.  And I can guarantee you that you will do more damage tanking in that spec than you will DPSing. In addition, your DPS will weaker, as you're probably using Seal of Wisdom, instead of a DPS seal, since you're really not getting anything from BoSanc or SA.

Yes, you can run Heroics fine doing it.  Most are merely saying, you aren't getting any benefit from doing it your way.  None.  You can tank in a pinch in Ret Spec.  Most of the damage is primarily melee, so you aren't gaining that much by grabbing Avenger's Shield, which is mostly for pulling.  And if you're pulling, why not just tank?

You're boxing with one hand tied behind your back, but... there's really no reason to.

There's some mileage to doing what you're doing in PVP, but PVE it's just kinda... huh?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on December 21, 2009, 01:22:07 PM
How about we let Poly play like he wants, and if he isn't doing well enough his groups can kick him?  If it happens enough then he'll either get frustrated and stop or change things around.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 21, 2009, 01:25:58 PM
This is the common flaw with forced grouping.  As soon as a task requires a group to complete, you now create an in-game mechanism for other players to dictate how you choose to enjoy playing.  You also provide a mechanism by which a single player can negatively impact the gameplay of as many as 24 other players.   Grouping is at its best when you are able to play with people you are familiar with and enjoy spending time with.  When this becomes impossible due to time conflicts, grouping devolves into a crapshoot that can generate fun or frustration with near equal probability.  

I like what they're trying to do with grouping.  I still would like to see some way around it for the exact same reasons you all cite in this thread.  

On principle I do not gkick anyone until we see that the progression is halted; for 5-man's it is all about smoothness - I don't get an extra badge for speed.

So, to PS80's point... it is only the fact that he (probably) has a 1h/shield that alerts folks to the obvious "odd-spec"... I have no idea how many fools I've grouped with who did not gear/gem/spec correctly... but if things are going to shit, you're the first one I'm going to look at  :grin:

If it is just Nexus or UK or some such garden variety 5-man, the goal is a smooth run with 5 badges at the end.  Oddly enough 5k dps in those instances can get people killed (when the rest of the group is geared for the ordinary standard of that instance).  So, yeah, it seems to me the measure should be appropriate movement through the instance, not whether the spec is approved or not.

Bear in mind, though, that it cuts both ways... "odd-spec" probably won't work in difficult 5-mans and I'd either self-select or expect a lot of scrutiny for all the reasons listed above.

edit for coherent spelling.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 21, 2009, 01:33:24 PM
How about we let Poly play like he wants, and if he isn't doing well enough his groups can kick him?  If it happens enough then he'll either get frustrated and stop or change things around.
Well it's not like we're stopping him.  There's no magic button to switch his spec.  He can do what he wants.  This all started because of this:

I finally did the three ICC 5-mans last night, as DPS with my PvP gear and protribution spec, so that I could see how they went.  I believe I could tank them on heroic, but it would make for a grumpy healer, so I'll wait til I pick up a little badge gear.

The only issues?

1) People going "WTF" over the concept of DPS in protection spec.

The statement was reacting as if there was a problem with other players.  There isn't.  That's something he needs to get used to.

Do what you want, but if you're (to use my metaphor again) boxing with one hand behind your back, don't be shocked when your corner team is going 'WTF?!'.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 21, 2009, 01:40:08 PM
To Nebu's point... when was the "WTF" moment?

The minute they saw him?  Or when the group could not get past the first pull or first boss?

Against the former I protest, with the latter I agree.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 01:51:13 PM
I have never said that I did more damage than I would in ret.  Nor do I plan to run dungeons solely as DPS; I *would* tank, if I had the gear to do it.  I don't.  (Well, I do for the non-heroics, as long as I remember to pay attention to the wanderers--I did cause the one wipe last night purely out of not paying attention to a roamer when pulling...)  And I'm not going to try to do it in non-tank gear without learning the dungeons, so I went DPS first.  To go run a few dungeons in non-heroic is not worth respecing/re-gemming/re-glyphing/rearming/re-wrapping my head around the way ret functions or just gimping my fun any more than I have to (I would, honestly, rather tank.)  Yet some of you seem to think it's my life's goal to do this?

I am saying that DPS in Prot is, while not optimal, not as bad as some of you make it out to be.  For 5-mans, anyway.  I wouldn't do a raid with it, nor expect to.   Actually, I just wouldn't do the raid; I will NOT spec ret again.  It's less boring than healing, but still not entertaining enough to do.

(And yes, I'm aware I would do more damage tanking, since I rarely ran consecration and got no blocking.  And no, I didn't use wisdom except for about 5% of the time when Divine Plea was off and on cooldown at a bad moment)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 21, 2009, 02:02:29 PM
I have never said that I did more damage than I would in ret.  Nor do I plan to run dungeons solely as DPS; I *would* tank, if I had the gear to do it.  I don't.  (Well, I do for the non-heroics, as long as I remember to pay attention to the wanderers--I did cause the one wipe last night purely out of not paying attention to a roamer when pulling...)  And I'm not going to try to do it in non-tank gear without learning the dungeons, so I went DPS first.  To go run a few dungeons in non-heroic is not worth respecing/re-gemming/re-glyphing/rearming/re-wrapping my head around the way ret functions or just gimping my fun any more than I have to (I would, honestly, rather tank.)  Yet some of you seem to think it's my life's goal to do this?

I am saying that DPS in Prot is, while not optimal, not as bad as some of you make it out to be.  For 5-mans, anyway.  I wouldn't do a raid with it, nor expect to.   Actually, I just wouldn't do the raid; I will NOT spec ret again.  It's less boring than healing, but still not entertaining enough to do.

(And yes, I'm aware I would do more damage tanking, since I rarely ran consecration and got no blocking.  And no, I didn't use wisdom except for about 5% of the time when Divine Plea was off and on cooldown at a bad moment)
I understand, and others may have been rather harsh about it.  Just expect an uphill climb with pugs.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 21, 2009, 02:10:51 PM
My ex used to play rpg's and never NEVER used consumable items, as though every last potion and ether was some precious thing to be tucked away for the final fight of the game.  She would literally go out and out-level every boss to avoid using them and did this impact me? No, I was just occasionally watching her play, a single player game that had no effect on me at all.  You know what though? It was frustrating as all hell and still is.

Look, this isn't the special olympics where everyone wins and you're all unique snowflakes. While how you play is entirely your perrogative it does not however invalidate the stupidity of it nor should anyone be barred from calling someone out on it.  You might think it's fun to walk to first base instead of run every time and sure, if you get a good hit or they drop the ball you might get there but don't get mad at all the other players for calling you a retard.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on December 21, 2009, 02:12:59 PM
I sense a common theme:  none of us gives a shit whether the other people are actually having fun, so long as it doesn't impact our own game.  That's fair enough, because I'm guilty of it too--rasix mentioned people afking; well, if I need to just get up and walk away from the computer because of my kids (ages 1 and 6), I don't give a flying fuck what it does to the group.  Whatever, kick me out. 

I love when people have fun. It makes everything so much better. And I understand that real life is important and has emergencies.

What I don't accept is that when your idea of fun = wasting four other people's chances to have fun. There's a difference between "shit happens, had to leave to fix something" (heck, half the people I play with are in IT. We're used to pauses to VPN in and fix something) and "my idea of fun is making this harder for everyone else"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 02:33:07 PM
To Nebu's point... when was the "WTF" moment?

The minute they saw him?  Or when the group could not get past the first pull or first boss?

Against the former I protest, with the latter I agree.

Imagine a scaled-down version of this argument at the start of about every other group, usually led by the tank--healers never bitched.  Once they got over it and tried a couple of pulls, they shut up and we kept going, except for the one (DW DK tank with worse gear than me, no less) that booted me before the last boss in Pit of Saron despite a flawless run.

Lakov & kildorn: Still failng on reading comprehension.  Back on the short bus, you!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 21, 2009, 02:38:08 PM
This thread is all a bit :headscratch:



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 21, 2009, 02:43:59 PM
I'm still confused. Do you not have dual spec and are just winging it in your Prot spec? Or do you have dual spec and purposefully have two Prot Specs, one for 'dps' ?

There really aren't any 'intricacies' to learn about Ret, you could literally just put Crusade Strike, Divine Storm and Exorcism into the same slots Shield of the Righteous, Hammer of the Righteous and Avengers Shield currently fill on your bar. You have plate DPS gear already, and even if it was all socketed for parry it wouldn't hinder Ret Spec any. You can find a decent 2h weapon just about anywhere these days, Rep, Tourney, Crafted etc.

If you don't have dual spec, sure, just stick with your preferred spec. If you do, then I don't understand your motivation or logic.



Also, for the entire length of the Art of War/Exo mechanic, I can count the number of times it hasn't been up on one hand. :P



-edit- I guess I can sum up my confusion like this.

You're using a Hammer to drive in Screws. Sure, it 'works' well enough, but why not use the Screwdriver? It's right there on your tool belt.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 03:02:54 PM
I have a prot spec for tanking, and one for PvP.  Some of the PvP talents are wasted while tanking, and vice versa.  Prot is my preferred method of PvP as well as general play. 

I've done ret for PvP and PvE, and stylistically it doesn't appeal to me.  The buttons may often do much the same thing, but I like 1h/shield.  I don't like the big mace/sword, with half the hit points and 2/3 the armor.  I *like* standing in the middle of a pile of mobs and laughing at them.

More practically, I also didn't (and still don't) think it's necessary to go through the trouble of respecing, buying new glyphs, and buying a weapon (or smithing up a lol-steel destroyer) for what literally amounted to an afternoon & evening of playtime, and then changing it all back, when there was no realistic reason to do so other than shaving a short amount of time off the dungeons.  Particularly when a fair number of the dedicated DPSers weren't any better geared--since I'm not using 245+ gear, I'm getting stuck with the lower echelons at times (some groups had level 79 folks in them.)  I don't run a DPS meter, but the 2500 figure someone posted earlier as a guesstimate was definitely more than a number of the other group members :P

(You're exaggerating on the art of war or you've got insane crit; my wife has 28-29% and it's still frequently not up at the time exorcism comes off CD, but it's not usually a long wait either)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 21, 2009, 03:24:43 PM
Don't forget the full set of iLevel 213+ ret pvp gear gemmed for mostly Str + Str/Stam.

If you changed specs you'd lose 3100 health and lose ~3% damage reduction from armor if you specced 0/20/51 (Armour talents) Imp Devotion Aura also provides 6% +Heal for the entire party regardless of what aura you're running, but Toughness doesn't require Devo Aura for the armour buff and reduces slow duration.  Or you could build Sacred Shield / Imp Sacred Shield for more mitigation that way.  As Ret you could also bounce heals off of people in your party if you need some action.  And yes, Art of War does proc that often, the rate is exactly equal to your crit rate, and it procs off of all melee attacks, which means you should be averaging one approximately every 3-4 seconds.

And that 2500 DPS figure for your prot spec was fully raid buffed, the target fully debuffed, with a flask and Fish Feast "Well Fed" buff.

EDIT: And just throwing more numbers at Rawr, it predicts a 1693 DPS optimum for your spec, single target, self-buffed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on December 21, 2009, 03:59:20 PM
Last time, then I'm off to DM for the group--it's D&D night, and I've got a bottle of Balvenie and a full party to kill  :grin:

A)  I didn't want to change.  Whatever the fuck reason, it doesn't matter, because

B) I didn't need to change.  Everything worked smoothly regardless of whether you think I made a poor choice or not.

So, whatever.  Drinking time in 15 minutes :P


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 21, 2009, 06:20:32 PM
It "works" because at this point in the expansion the average group of retards can easily four-man a heroic, they don't really need you at all, and they don't feel like kicking you. If you were trying to heal with this same sense of "Expecting me to play the game right is elitist!" entitlement, you'd have people cussing you out as they wiped over and over. But you're a PUG DPS and as long as you appear to be fighting and aren't naked, everyone will just roll their eyes and go on with their business.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 21, 2009, 09:03:12 PM
But you're a PUG DPS and as long as you appear to be fighting and aren't naked, everyone will just roll their eyes and go on with their business.
Exactly.  As long as you are remotely appearing to DPS (1500+) most people aren't going to care outside of the 3 new heroics.  People care about those, because they are considerably harder and require more effort from people to complete.  You can't always easily carry a 5th person who wants to do things their own way in them (same with raids, which he admit he won't do this in).  I've run with mages who insisted on nothing but casting arcane missiles over and over again using some bizarre spec that doesn't really get any deep talents or hunters is who use scattershot and autoshot and nothing else.  These guys did technically work at what they were doing, but they were barely making any real dents in the mobs and we might as well have been 4-manning the instance.  Most of the time we just ignore them, but every now and again we'll get someone who is rubbed the wrong way that a 213+ geared character is only doing 1100DPS and will start a major scene ending with that person either leaving or kicking the low DPSing offender out.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 21, 2009, 09:20:14 PM
An il213 character should still be able to throw down some good dps IF they're trying. That's what gets my spacegoat: people that don't even try.

I"m still reminded of a quasi-PuG in a 10 man Uldaur. We were struggling on skychicken/dragon/whatever and during a rebuff I actually started to look around at my fellow raiders. Rogues with no weapons enchants, rogues with no armor enchants. Half the raid without flasks. Toons with blue gear. WTF? This is Uldaur. Blue gear? Man. We did make it to Kologarn and to this day I'm still not sure how. Nice people, but have some pride. I wouldn't have dared set foot in Uldaur with a character set up like this. I was a little pissed at first (wasting my time...but I was only there for the Lev trinket), but I suspect some were alts and they were civil. Not a small thing in WoW these days.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 21, 2009, 09:36:19 PM
An il213 character should still be able to throw down some good dps IF they're trying. That's what gets my spacegoat: people that don't even try.
Indeed.  This is what most people are going to have issues and start a scene over.  If they think you are not trying.  No one considers a DPS in old heroics doing 2500+ to not be trying, even if their spec is goofy and gear is wonky.


Nice people, but have some pride. I wouldn't have dared set foot in Uldaur with a character set up like this.
I had this issue with TotC-10 a few weeks before the patch.  I get called in to heal as a druid and the first thing the shaman healer who was recruited to main tank heal is "I won't do it, I'm geared for chain heal only" so I have to HoT up BOTH tanks as BOTH of the other healers ONLY want to raid heal and one begrudgingly agreed to assist me.  I should have known something was up then.  On the first boss, the shaman raid healer goes down in the first 30s (I do not know how for the life of me this happened as firebombs hadn't even gone out yet) so now I am on raid heals in addition to the two tank heals.  Well obviously you can imagine that this is difficult, but I'm keeping the tanks and raid alive and we get Gormok down and start on Acidmaw and Dreadscale.  I notice firebombs are still going off and that the DPS is NOT killing the snobolds AT ALL.  We wipe and repeat this 3 times because every single time the DPS refuse to kill the snobolds despite the raid leader yelling at them to do so.  Finally the tanks say "the druid healer is good, the rest of you fuckers suck" and quit the group.  I start inspecting people out and most are decked out in 200 level gear and using really crazy bizarre specs.  No enchants or gems that made much sense (lots of +spirit on a warlock, str on a rogue, etc) so all I can guess is that people wanted to see the raid, but didn't have a single clue as to what the fuck they needed to do to make the raid successfull such as how to kill the boss or not die.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 21, 2009, 10:25:24 PM
lots of +spirit on a warlock

Warlocks get 50% of their spirit as spellpower with Glyph of Life Tap and Fel Armor, and Life Tap scales off of spirit with a 300% coefficient.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 21, 2009, 11:51:59 PM
I have yet to tank for a group where I am not #1 or #2 on dps. Basically me and the healer (my healers have all been good) give free piggyback rides through heroics.

And you know what? I refuse to feel bad for thinking "wtf, people" at the dpsers that cannot beat my totally awesome 1700 dps.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 22, 2009, 02:32:47 AM
I hate to bag on Poly too much, like some WoW general forum e-peen warrior, but if you want to be Mr. Unique Snowflake McCrazyspec then keep that shit to your guild where they can slap you around if they don't like it, or just use it for dailies or whatever. Don't go foisting it on the general public. We have enough problems with people who don't even KNOW they're doing it wrong. I'm as casual as they come (except when it comes to lore, RAWR) but I still have a thread on the first page of this forum where I link my armory and go "This doesn't look too retarded does it?"

PS: The new LFG tool is just jizztasticly awesome. Every game of similar design from now on that doesn't copy it is offically BROKEN.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 22, 2009, 03:21:48 AM
Blizzard's random dungeon queue manages to be the single largest innovation in MMO's since 2004.  That I can knock over three dungeons in an hour if my selected group isn't too fucking stupid is sublime.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 22, 2009, 04:01:18 AM
The only time I hate the LFG tool is when it keeps pairing me with crap DPS. I was 4th on damage as a disc priest in hc CoT yesterday, and 2nd in overall damage in hc VH the day before. My gear is decent for healing, but if you're a DPS and loosing out to smite and holy nova spam, you are fucking terrible.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 22, 2009, 04:01:40 AM
I've only had like 2 really terrible heroic random pugs and both were when I got one of the new Icecrown 5-mans. Which is annoying since there's a few items I'd like out of there.

Meanwhile every old heroic I get a pug full of people pulling 4-5k+ DPS. My current record for clearing Azjol'Nerub is 6 minutes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 22, 2009, 05:17:57 AM
Six Minutes is  :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on December 22, 2009, 05:56:28 AM
I have yet to tank for a group where I am not #1 or #2 on dps. Basically me and the healer (my healers have all been good) give free piggyback rides through heroics.

And you know what? I refuse to feel bad for thinking "wtf, people" at the dpsers that cannot beat my totally awesome 1700 dps.

I wish I could say this.  I know my tank skills are a bit rusty,  but god damn they're not THAT RUSTY.  While the majority of the groups I've healed for have been passable at the least, the majority of groups I've tried to tank for have been complete fuckwits.  Or is stand back and let me break LOS that difficult of a concept these days? 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 22, 2009, 06:32:56 AM
The only time I hate the LFG tool is when it keeps pairing me with crap DPS.

You can fix the lfg tools, you can fix the game but you can't fix stupid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 22, 2009, 07:15:13 AM
I have yet to tank for a group where I am not #1 or #2 on dps. Basically me and the healer (my healers have all been good) give free piggyback rides through heroics.

And you know what? I refuse to feel bad for thinking "wtf, people" at the dpsers that cannot beat my totally awesome 1700 dps.

Are you #1/2 in actual DPS or damage done?  I've seen the later a lot in areas where there's a lot of AE packs or stuff that dies very quickly because the tank (usually a pally/DK) can kill the stuff before anyone else can react. 

I've started finishing first in about 80% of the groups I do now.   :awesome_for_real:  Last time I almost lost to a tank, it was a feral pulling 3k+.  I've seen paladins pulling almost 3.5k. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 22, 2009, 08:17:01 AM
I'm doing the whole leveling in instances thing while doing gathering/trades in between.

Holy fuck is it tough going through inscription.  I'm in the process of making Jadefire Ink from Emerald Pigment.  God damn goldthorn/whiskers/fadeleaf.  There isn't a big concentration of these herbs and it's a god damn pain.  God damn.

I don't have enough cash to buy ink/herbs from the AH either.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 22, 2009, 08:25:53 AM
it's 15 minutes until you can vote to kick someone anyway.
Nah, you can vote to kick before 15min.  We had a healer DC on zone-in this morning and we were able to votekick after killing the first trash, with 11min on the timer still.

I believe you can vote to kick someone if they have been disconnected for more than one minute.  It's one of the few exceptions (maybe the only one) to the 15 minute rule.

I should also note that the blizzard devs think it's supposed to be 5 minutes, so it may change in the near future.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 22, 2009, 08:31:25 AM
I'm number 1 or 2 in both dps and damage done most of the time. If I'm number two, number one has usually done like 4500 dps over the course of the instance, and that doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't bother them.  :grin: I do take the AE aspects into account but it's really not "Sjofn is just swiping to dps victory before anyone else can do anything." It really is "Sjofn is tanking for mostly shitty DPS." In the long run I don't care, it makes my job pretty facerolly, and I'm not really taking that much damage even with stuff dying kinda slow.

I met my first total asshat of a DK yesterday! He decided to Army of the Dead on the whirlwindy boss in Nexus. Not a big deal but it was annoying, and I told him to please not do that on the other bosses because sadly the dungeon bosses don't ignore the ghoul taunts like raid bosses do. And he totally fucking sneered at me saying, "What raids do YOU tank in THAT gear? Naxx 10?"

I enjoyed that because a) he was rocking blues, b) he was also rocking about 1400 dps, c) the assumption Jassan is my main, and d) Jassan's gear is NOT THAT BAD ANYWAY (his tank shit is mostly HToC or whatever).

He also liked standing in front of mobs (I got to explain why he shouldn't) and learned his main is a hunter. I laughed. Then I put him on ignore.  :heart:


EDIT: Oh yeah, Dreagan, learn to love Swamp of Sorrows. If you just ride in circles along the edge you should get plenty of goldthorn. If you're feeling sassy and run all over the place, you'll trip over lots of fadeleaf and whiskers as well, plus blindweed for TEH FUTURE.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 22, 2009, 08:32:11 AM
It "works" because at this point in the expansion the average group of retards can easily four-man a heroic, they don't really need you at all, and they don't feel like kicking you. If you were trying to heal with this same sense of "Expecting me to play the game right is elitist!" entitlement, you'd have people cussing you out as they wiped over and over. But you're a PUG DPS and as long as you appear to be fighting and aren't naked, everyone will just roll their eyes and go on with their business.

Exactly.  If a healer tried to run some weird ass spec, it probably wouldn't work at all, and the group would die repeatedly.  If a tank ran some weird ass spec, it'd probably work even worse, and the group would dissolve after a few wipes, and someone realized that hey, this "tank" isn't anything of the sort.

Right now all that's saving you is the 15 minute kick timer.  PUG DPS is literally dime-a-dozen, or possibly dime-a-hundred.  You can be replaced in less time than it takes to link Recount to the guild to show how this one DPS can't even match the tank.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: AutomaticZen on December 22, 2009, 09:09:19 AM

Exactly.  If a healer tried to run some weird ass spec, it probably wouldn't work at all, and the group would die repeatedly.  If a tank ran some weird ass spec, it'd probably work even worse, and the group would dissolve after a few wipes, and someone realized that hey, this "tank" isn't anything of the sort.

Right now all that's saving you is the 15 minute kick timer.  PUG DPS is literally dime-a-dozen, or possibly dime-a-hundred.  You can be replaced in less time than it takes to link Recount to the guild to show how this one DPS can't even match the tank.
If it teleported the new DPS to where the rest of the group was, there'd be even less reason not to.  Waiting for the new DPS to catch up to everyone is the worst part.

Hell,  I had a warlock yesterday pull while I was buffing.  I calmly watched him die, and then I tanked the mobs.  Once the pull was over, I told him directly, 'you pull it, you tank it.'  No problems after that.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 22, 2009, 09:45:38 AM
I'm doing the whole leveling in instances thing while doing gathering/trades in between.

Holy fuck is it tough going through inscription.  I'm in the process of making Jadefire Ink from Emerald Pigment.  God damn goldthorn/whiskers/fadeleaf.  There isn't a big concentration of these herbs and it's a god damn pain.  God damn.

I don't have enough cash to buy ink/herbs from the AH either.

Hit swamp of sorrows, it's a great place to powerlevel both herbing and inscription. I feel your pain though, I can only reassure you with the fact that it does get better, especially once you hit 300, from there it's a breeze up to 430ish when it really slows down again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 22, 2009, 11:10:40 AM
Swamp of Sorrows... I had complete forgot about that little place.  I'll be there tonight.

I'm already up to 230ish with herbalism at level 38 and 151 inscription.  I'm almost caught up with my level.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 22, 2009, 01:31:24 PM
I hate the new LFG tool.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 22, 2009, 02:20:59 PM
My sub was due to run out in a few days. I was going to let it lapse. Then the new LFG tool came crashing in through a plate glass window on a motorcycle, dramatically took off its sunglasses, and went "Oh no you don't motherfucker!"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lt.Dan on December 22, 2009, 02:42:17 PM
I'm doing the whole leveling in instances thing while doing gathering/trades in between.

I thought I'd do that...then I hit Outlands and random isn't so random anymore  :oh_i_see:  I got Ramparts 6 times in a row, then I got Slave Pens 3 times in a row, then UB 6 times in a row and now I'm in my Auchenai Crypts cycle.

Also, Auchenai Crypts is not my favourite instance.  Two bosses which you can't faceroll and a couple of tricky pulls almost guarantees a wipe or two.  Sure the challenge is nice but would be nice to have a clean run.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 22, 2009, 02:46:24 PM
I'm doing the whole leveling in instances thing while doing gathering/trades in between.

I thought I'd do that...then I hit Outlands and random isn't so random anymore  :oh_i_see:  I got Ramparts 6 times in a row, then I got Slave Pens 3 times in a row, then UB 6 times in a row and now I'm in my Auchenai Crypts cycle.

Also, Auchenai Crypts is not my favourite instance.  Two bosses which you can't faceroll and a couple of tricky pulls almost guarantees a wipe or two.  Sure the challenge is nice but would be nice to have a clean run.

/shrug

for old world levelling i can see dungeons being a fun alternative but i can literally be out of outland in a week of casual play(at most) so it's best to just plow through those levels


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on December 22, 2009, 02:51:49 PM
I just want them to man up and make heroics out of the old instances.

Don't even bother with loot.  Just pump the creatures full of stamina and strength and let us loose.

Badges for the boss x2.  All good.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: dd0029 on December 22, 2009, 05:25:15 PM
I just want them to man up and make heroics out of the old instances.

Don't even bother with loot.  Just pump the creatures full of stamina and strength and let us loose.

Badges for the boss x2.  All good.


Can you imagine all that trash?  Fuck, Scarlet Monastery would never get run.  Hell Undead Strat.  I really like Scholo, but damn is there a lot of trash.  Seem to recall that they were going to do a Heroic Deadmines from Blizzcon.  That whole place is a trash nightmare .


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: pxib on December 22, 2009, 05:43:26 PM
Well if you're removing loot, just add more bosses.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 22, 2009, 05:49:06 PM
It's not like they don't have the technology to select and delete trash.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 22, 2009, 06:45:42 PM
im fairly sure a LOT of old world dungeons are getting revamped and possibly given heroic modes in cataclysm, which is why they arent bothering with it right now


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 22, 2009, 07:10:46 PM
Only Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep are getting heroic modes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on December 23, 2009, 02:03:13 AM
It would be nice if neither of them were available vis the LFD tool so you still had to do an epic trek to the enemy lands for them. But on reflection maybe, just maybe, that would trigger a veritable shitstorm of whining...  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tannhauser on December 23, 2009, 03:39:04 AM
Last night I tanked SC Armory.  In my five years playing I've never tanked an instance before.  The run went smoothly, the priest and the mage drew aggro a couple of times by not hugging walls.  It was fun!  I even got Herod's Shoulders.  Which is nice.

That's why 3.3 is the best patch ever.  It encourages folks to try different roles and specs.  Plus I get to re-visit zones that I've only been in once or twice or not at all. 

I've not been doing the random instances yet, I have some weird problem letting the system send me somewhere, but I will try it this weekend.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Delmania on December 23, 2009, 05:08:54 AM
On one hand, the LFD tool does help to further remove the immersion from WoW because you no longer have to travel to the entrance of the instance and the people you group with are not from your server.

On the other hand, running 5 man heroics has become fun again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on December 23, 2009, 05:39:53 AM
Only Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep are getting heroic modes.
...at expansion launch. What, you don't think they'll add in more old-world heroics in 4.1, 4.2, etc?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 23, 2009, 06:39:57 AM
There is no lack of immersion for not "running to the instance". 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 23, 2009, 07:18:20 AM
Only Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep are getting heroic modes.
...at expansion launch. What, you don't think they'll add in more old-world heroics in 4.1, 4.2, etc?

Given they kept repeating a billion times that they were not planning on doing heroic versions of anything but those two for the foreseeable future, I would not be surprised if they do not, in fact, add in more old-world heroics in 4.1, 4.2, etc. They weren't even couching it in "Nothing is set in stone, of course, but ..." They were just straight up saying, "No."


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on December 23, 2009, 10:52:27 AM
Heroic Gnomeregan. That is all.

An aside... I've been running the new heroics every day on my druid tank (sometimes my priest healer too), and have only seen the battered hilt drop twice. Both times it was won by someone else from my server who put it up on the AH for 18k and/or started spamming trade immediately after the run.  :oh_i_see:

(yeah, I know, do guild runs, pugs are pugs, etc.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 23, 2009, 12:22:26 PM
Fill me in.  Heroic level 80 Deadmines?  Or Heroic level 20 Deadmines?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 23, 2009, 12:55:08 PM
My sub was due to run out in a few days. I was going to let it lapse. Then the new LFG tool came crashing in through a plate glass window on a motorcycle, dramatically took off its sunglasses, and went "Oh no you don't motherfucker!"
The heroic Icecrown instances give you a taste of what it's like to raid too since they're harder than Naxx, Sarth, Malygos, ToC, and a bit of Ulduar. No really, not "lol l33t raider" talk either. If you're good enough to not die during the ICC5 series, you're plenty good enough to do the first 3 tiers of raiding in Wrath.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 23, 2009, 01:23:38 PM

An aside... I've been running the new heroics every day on my druid tank (sometimes my priest healer too), and have only seen the battered hilt drop twice. Both times it was won by someone else from my server who put it up on the AH for 18k and/or started spamming trade immediately after the run.  :oh_i_see:


IMO everyone should roll need on it.  18-30k gold can be used by everyone.  Even hunters.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 23, 2009, 05:36:49 PM
My sub was due to run out in a few days. I was going to let it lapse. Then the new LFG tool came crashing in through a plate glass window on a motorcycle, dramatically took off its sunglasses, and went "Oh no you don't motherfucker!"
The heroic Icecrown instances give you a taste of what it's like to raid too since they're harder than Naxx, Sarth, Malygos, ToC, and a bit of Ulduar. No really, not "lol l33t raider" talk either. If you're good enough to not die during the ICC5 series, you're plenty good enough to do the first 3 tiers of raiding in Wrath.

Malygos is harder; but for different reasons I'd say.

Fill me in.  Heroic level 80 Deadmines?  Or Heroic level 20 Deadmines?

Heroic level 85 deadmines.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 23, 2009, 07:56:16 PM
All The Ninja Raiders... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB8iu8V99HY&feature=player_embedded)

I HAVE to be bloodworthing this but just in case...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 23, 2009, 08:12:34 PM
Man, bullshit like that song/video just makes me like the game less.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 23, 2009, 08:25:29 PM
song is stupid but the chorus is catchy as all hell


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Evildrider on December 23, 2009, 08:45:13 PM
song is stupid but the chorus is catchy as all hell

QQQ QQQQQ QQQQ
QQQ QQQQQ QQQQ


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on December 23, 2009, 09:03:24 PM
My first attempt at using the Random Dungeon/PuG system and my group gets landed with an off-server DK 'tank' who suicides on the first mobs in Gundrak while everyone's loading in, drops from the team leaving his mess, successfully griefing the rest of us. Seems to me all this new system has done is make it even easier for people to be giant dickbags.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 23, 2009, 11:28:58 PM
I don't think you get the deserter debuff if you drop party while dead. Oculus and the jousting one are both suicide-and-quit for me if that's the case. Fucking vehicle shit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on December 24, 2009, 07:04:43 AM
I'd rather spend 15 minutes staring at a debuff and watching it slowly tick down than ever enter Oculus again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 24, 2009, 07:18:28 AM
Occulus has been nerfed so bad my undergeared priest was able to handle it without a problem.  The vehicle fight is also fairly simple, but yeah, still a stupid ass mechanic for a boss fight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 24, 2009, 07:41:33 AM
I don't think you get the deserter debuff if you drop party while dead. Oculus and the jousting one are both suicide-and-quit for me if that's the case. Fucking vehicle shit.

Oculus I understand but toc is so fucking easy and quick I can't see how you would pass on it, jousting mechanic being shitty(and I whole-heartedly agree it is) isn't enough to tarnish easy loot/badges.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Arrrgh on December 24, 2009, 07:53:36 AM
I don't think you get the deserter debuff if you drop party while dead. Oculus and the jousting one are both suicide-and-quit for me if that's the case. Fucking vehicle shit.

Oculus I understand but toc is so fucking easy and quick I can't see how you would pass on it, jousting mechanic being shitty(and I whole-heartedly agree it is) isn't enough to tarnish easy loot/badges.

I've yet to see a group wipe on the jousting, and it's over in a few minutes.

Occulus makes me wish you could put instances on ignore.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 24, 2009, 08:11:29 AM
I did Oculus today for the first time since close to release.

It is really fucking easy now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on December 24, 2009, 10:01:46 AM
Seriously, if you can get a group that doesn't immediately implode and spend thirty seconds explaining the fights (if needed), Oculus is more or less a walk in the park now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 24, 2009, 10:10:06 AM
I don't think you get the deserter debuff if you drop party while dead. Oculus and the jousting one are both suicide-and-quit for me if that's the case. Fucking vehicle shit.

Oculus I understand but toc is so fucking easy and quick I can't see how you would pass on it, jousting mechanic being shitty(and I whole-heartedly agree it is) isn't enough to tarnish easy loot/badges.

It's weird. These days I'd say TOC is actually worse than Occ, because of the fucking jousting lag that has never been fixed.  I've had groups wipe on the first segment of jousting (before even getting to jousting the 3 guys you have to kill) but not a single PUG I've had in Occ has had problems. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on December 24, 2009, 11:34:19 AM
Also if a random dickbag leaves the party immediately, you just have to have the leader re-queue.  I'm not sure if the thing puts a priority on filling groups in progress, but it's never been a very long wait for me.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on December 24, 2009, 11:39:16 AM
Guys, Occulus is easy.  However, it's colour scheme is awful, it makes no sense whatsoever and the fights are just total fuckteases of no reason.

I mean, why the fuck do I have to poke that guy 4 times for him to release ghostly animals like some fucking odd Pinata and THEN smack his bitch up ?

It's a shit instance.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 24, 2009, 02:46:05 PM
Go for a random heroic on my newly minted 80 druid, zone into H Gundrak, and one of the DPS starts going off about how we're all douchebags and he's in a hurry.  Okay, whatever, I hardly care.  He continues his verbal barrage up to the first pull

Tank does the first pull, the DPS (a rogue) stealths into the first room, pulls the other two packs, and the boss.  I do my poor best to heal this, but there's no possible way I can pull it off, so we wipe.  Verbal barrage continues.  Tank leaves the group.  I announce that eating the deserter debuff is worth not carrying this rogue, and also leave group.

My enthusiasm for the random lfg tool is considerably dimmed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tannhauser on December 24, 2009, 03:15:49 PM
You're blaming the tool instead of the players?  I had a group with a warrior who would NOT stop jumping.  Had a warlock that liked to roll Need.  But that was the worst of it.  Frankly, I can't believe the groups are as good as they are;  this system lets assholes grief/ninja and drop back to their own server scot free.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 24, 2009, 03:29:39 PM
I'm blaming the players because there's no way to filter out jackasses that will intentionally grief groups, and then let them go back to their servers unscathed.  Although that's probably not clear from the other post.

And another failed group.  Tank decides to not pull the patrolling spiders right inside the entrance of HOK, one of them wanders by, aggros on me, I die, group wipes.  Tank disbands, a DPS disbands, so I just bail.

Yeah, the tool is awesome.  People?  Not so much.

At least I only had an 11 minute debuff this time.  I should look up the mechanics of the deserter debuff, because it doesn't seem to be terribly consistent on being applied.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 24, 2009, 03:55:09 PM
On the flip side, you do get some awesome groups.

Redid HoR hc today on my priest having it done two or three times now on my Shaman. It's not even funny how much easier it is on a priest than a shaman.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 24, 2009, 03:55:49 PM
I've had probably a better than 90% success rate at finding good groups with it, I'm happy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 24, 2009, 04:30:45 PM
I'm batting 40% success rate today, and the last one was by the skin of our teeth.  Idiot mage decides to talk to Arthas while everyone else is making sure the dragon was gone.  I'm not sure how they managed to finish it (I died twice because of the tank not holding aggro.)

I don't care how "viable" dual wield dks may be in theory.  The worst tanks I've had have uniformly been dual wield dks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 24, 2009, 04:59:13 PM
After watching two DWing Dks with decent amounts of health (41k) and def (465) go Splatter in very few hits from the mobs in PoS, I'm inclined to agree.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on December 24, 2009, 05:23:02 PM
I had a few groups today and they were definitely worse than normal.  I'm blaming the holidays.  That said, the good groups have still far outnumbered the idiots.   On a side note - are fuckers so used to being carried that anyone not in full Tier 9 is undergeared for Drak Keep? I'm in a mix of 187/200/219/232 gear on my  Resto spec shaman and this dipshit dual wield DK is worried about me being able to heal. FFS it's Drak Keep not HOR.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Arrrgh on December 24, 2009, 05:46:57 PM
After watching two DWing Dks with decent amounts of health (41k) and def (465) go Splatter in very few hits from the mobs in PoS, I'm inclined to agree.

Can you link their armories? I'm sorry you people ran into some dipshits but there's nothing inherently bad about dual wield tanking. They probably have other issues.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 24, 2009, 06:31:06 PM
There's nothing inherently good about them either. There is no advantage over a 2h DK, regardless of tree.

Worse, the whole DW thing seems to attract bozos. The absolutely worst tanks I've personally had the misfortune to group with have all been DW DKs. The class attracts FotM idiots anyway, but the majoriy of those seem to think DW is cool, so you have the trainwreck we see today. My best advice is to shun them and let them know why.

I do know one DW DK that actually is competent. I have my doubts that he's actually better than he would be swinging a 2hander, but at least he can tank. He's one of three I've ever encountered in the last year of WoW. The other score or so were clownshoes--either they blew up when hit hard, couldn't hold aggro with a prayer, or both. Why Blizz retains this foolishness in the frost tree is beyond me. It's nothing but trouble.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 24, 2009, 08:33:55 PM
After watching two DWing Dks with decent amounts of health (41k) and def (465) go Splatter in very few hits from the mobs in PoS, I'm inclined to agree.

Can you link their armories? I'm sorry you people ran into some dipshits but there's nothing inherently bad about dual wield tanking. They probably have other issues.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackhand&n=Zarrul

That's the only one whose name I remember.  The other guy was when I was DPSing and he'd go splat, then I'd wind up picking up aggro.  I was off on the defense, I see, but I remember his health was 41k buffed with Druid & Priest buffs because I went "wha?" when I saw half his life bar go away.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Arrrgh on December 24, 2009, 08:43:01 PM
Looks solid. There are some rough pulls in PoS. Those two groups of hellfire spammers just up the hill from Ick will kill my tank in seconds if the healer isn't on their toes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 24, 2009, 08:54:12 PM
Like Shrike said, it's more about the player than it was the gear.   He wasn't using his tanking CDs or Anti Magic Shell, period.  Those two pulls pretty much require them, particularly when the healer says "hey I'm barely geared for here, take it easy.  I don't care what the LFD tool says my gear level is."   Not interrupting the hellfire or fireballs.. also fail.

It's like the old huntard problem.  Sure, there were plenty of good hunters out there who knew how to use their bag of tools and stand out of pathing mobs way or not use multishot on CC pulls.  However, the sheer number of idiots meant that you didn't take a hunter in a group because they were more likely to get you killed than not.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kail on December 24, 2009, 09:02:28 PM
<-Noob tank, but wouldn't a dual wielding DK have similar or better defense than a straight up 2H DK?  Unless the parry reduction on the swing timer is accounting for huge amounts of enemy DPS or something.  I thought the big problem was them keeping aggro by having lower DPS, not them taking hits.  It's not like a dual wielding warrior or anything, where he's sacrificing the extra armor from a shield.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 24, 2009, 10:03:21 PM
<-Noob tank, but wouldn't a dual wielding DK have similar or better defense than a straight up 2H DK?  Unless the parry reduction on the swing timer is accounting for huge amounts of enemy DPS or something.  I thought the big problem was them keeping aggro by having lower DPS, not them taking hits.  It's not like a dual wielding warrior or anything, where he's sacrificing the extra armor from a shield.

When you're healing you can tell when someone with low expertise is attacking at a high rate from the front arc, because the tank will start losing big chunks of health at completely irregular intervals.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on December 24, 2009, 10:26:24 PM
Pretend I'm a complete noob.  What's the difference between a dual wielding and a two-hander if everything else is the same?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 24, 2009, 10:30:56 PM
I just did the worst pit of saron with a pally tank who while he had 43k health was a cimplete fucking moron who didn't seem to have consecrate on his bars.  After the second wipe I called him out on it and then he said we needed to learn to play and quit the group...


seriously?! I'm sorry it's my fault all those untanked adds raped my face when i tried to heal...fucking prima-donna tanks.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 24, 2009, 10:38:55 PM
A one hander has a speed of between 1.5 and 2.6 on average.  Two handers tend to gravitate towards 3.6.  faster attacks, more chances to be parried per unit of time, more chances for the mob to get the parry haste proc (40% haste for one attack), more enemy burst.  Undergeared melee classes with parry-able AoE attacks are possibly my worst fucking nightmare for tank healing when they attack from the front.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on December 25, 2009, 02:33:20 AM
I just did the worst pit of saron with a pally tank who while he had 43k health was a cimplete fucking moron who didn't seem to have consecrate on his bars.  After the second wipe I called him out on it and then he said we needed to learn to play and quit the group...


seriously?! I'm sorry it's my fault all those untanked adds raped my face when i tried to heal...fucking prima-donna tanks.

Once again, the new instances are pulling all the bad tanks out of the woodwork.

Tank with excellent gear and good talents tried HoR last night.  He basically let us all die.  I have no idea how someone gets to that level without knowing fuck all.  No Stuns, No shield bash, no taunt, no shockwave.

Seriously.  I went back and checked the logs.  The guy was basically a devastate merchant who was fuck all use.  Didn't even target THE HEALER first.  Oh and Mr DPS warrior who was also there ?  Wanna pummel every once in a while, you utter fuck ?

I'm a GOOD warrior.  I'm a GREAT tank.  I'm sometimes shamed for my class.

Assholes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 25, 2009, 07:52:35 AM
Pretend I'm a complete noob.  What's the difference between a dual wielding and a two-hander if everything else is the same?

Nothing, in theory; as Healers, we get a "feel" for the tank pretty quickly, and it simply seems that DW DK's are squishier than they ought to be... probably a function of the player playing a role they don't really want to play.

(Ok, theoretically a non-expertise-capped DW DK will get parried more than a 2H (or 1H) tank - which initiates the Haste effect on the NPC... but this really ought not be a serious concern in the Non-ICC heroics).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on December 25, 2009, 08:32:05 AM
After watching two DWing Dks with decent amounts of health (41k) and def (465) go Splatter in very few hits from the mobs in PoS, I'm inclined to agree.
Um, 465 Defense is 70 points below the defense cap for heroics. No amount of health will save you when you get crit like that.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on December 25, 2009, 08:44:13 AM
New phenomenon: Paris Hilton goes slumming.

Pretty much what JWIV mentioned previously... get a group with one (or two) guys in 5000+ gear score equip telling everyone in the group that they suck and that they [5k hero] really wouldn't even be here except <insert ICC boss here> won't drop the damn trinket they need, so they are slumming badges with the rest of us lowly shits.

These geniuses then proceed to get group members killed through various dickhead plays: Tank out-runs party, dies surrounded by an entire wing of a dungeon; Tank _never_ stops and dies when healer finally squeezes the last minuscule heal left in the arsenal after being in combat for 11 minutes; DPS does what we have already covered previously.

Don't get me wrong, as a decently geared healer (for heroics) I love when the uber tank drives us through DTK in 8 minutes... as long as he follows a few basic rules of the road - the absolute barest minimum rule is, and always will be: you can only go as far and as fast as the healer's mana bar can last (or reach).

Again, all I'm looking for here is a little awareness... let's go as fast as the group can handle... but given that we just met 4 seconds ago, maybe a little ramp-up period is in order?

What bothers me the most, however, is the weird sense of entitlement...

True story: LFD drops us into AK; 5k hero immediately announces that he has to go eat dinner and should be back in 10-15 minutes; Huh?  5k Buddy decides to pull entire first room of spiders and boss with newish 80's for DPS.  I'm not sure how that fight ended because the teleport out button seems to work in combat - as does leave group.  I felt a twinge of regret for the newbie 80's but they just didn't recognize the fail fast enough.

On a bright note... hat tip to a rogue named Tau (forget the server) who was extremely well geared, patient with a new DK that probably should not have qualified for Forge, and literally did carry the group through a couple of fights making them absurdly easy... and didn't bail when the tank goofed up the specter pulls before the 2nd boss (twice).

Fake edit: wait, shouldn't this be in the Bad Groups thread?  They are starting to collide.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on December 25, 2009, 09:08:41 AM
A one hander has a speed of between 1.5 and 2.6 on average.  Two handers tend to gravitate towards 3.6.  faster attacks, more chances to be parried per unit of time, more chances for the mob to get the parry haste proc (40% haste for one attack), more enemy burst.  Undergeared melee classes with parry-able AoE attacks are possibly my worst fucking nightmare for tank healing when they attack from the front.
(Ok, theoretically a non-expertise-capped DW DK will get parried more than a 2H (or 1H) tank - which initiates the Haste effect on the NPC... but this really ought not be a serious concern in the Non-ICC heroics).
What is this haste proc you two mentioned?  I have never heard of it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on December 25, 2009, 09:14:45 AM
It's a hidden game mechanic that they never tell you about.  You can get more gory details on wowwiki, but basically any time anyone parries (player or monster), the next swing comes 40% faster than it normally would.  It's turned off for some bosses, but not all.   So if, say, a rogue is up front poking away and gets parried, the the tank is going to get swung at more often.   Or if a tank has a faster weapon, he is going to hurt himself more, etc.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Parry



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 25, 2009, 10:09:57 AM
I'm not sure the slumming theory holds water. I know a lot of raiders who have little cash for repair bills as it is and aren't looking to make any more bills. Plus most of the people want to get their 2 badges asap and then get the hell out.  I really think there are just a lot of bad, bad players out there who get carried into gear or have run dungeons so often they can get pretty nice offspec gear like tanking stuff and then proceed to try and tank with little to no experience in it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 25, 2009, 10:15:18 AM
oh here http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Darrowmere&cn=Gareck&gn=Smiles+for+Miles 

is the epic paladin who couldn't be bothered to consecrate on add fights. I really, REALLY like that the only raids he's done are onyxia and toc10 and nothing else.  Further proof that it's really easy to pick up good gear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 25, 2009, 11:04:38 AM
I landed in an absolutely stellar random group the other night. Nobody ever got aggro off the DK tank, the Druid healer was so good and so geared that he was telling us to go ahead and stand in things, and all of us DPS were actually awake and doing our jobs. It went so well that we knocked out like four heroics in a row and nobody died once the entire time.

oh here http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Darrowmere&cn=Gareck&gn=Smiles+for+Miles  

is the epic paladin who couldn't be bothered to consecrate on add fights. I really, REALLY like that the only raids he's done are onyxia and toc10 and nothing else.  Further proof that it's really easy to pick up good gear.

I don't know enough about Prot, but his Ret spec is retarded. He's got 5/5 Anticipation and 1/5 Toughness. What the hell? Venture Co. Libram of Retribution? That's a level 74 blue. LOL.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on December 25, 2009, 12:04:29 PM
To be fair, those Venture Bay relics are frequently best in slot until you can save up enough badges for a purple one simply because Blizzard doesn't really itemise for that slot for most classes that need them.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on December 25, 2009, 12:23:15 PM
It's a hidden game mechanic that they never tell you about.  You can get more gory details on wowwiki, but basically any time anyone parries (player or monster), the next swing comes 40% faster than it normally would.  It's turned off for some bosses, but not all.   So if, say, a rogue is up front poking away and gets parried, the the tank is going to get swung at more often.   Or if a tank has a faster weapon, he is going to hurt himself more, etc.
That's... stupid.  You're already penalized for being blocked and not doing damage.

If anything, it should be the reverse, where parrying causes the next attack to come more slowly.  Then you can choose whether you want to slow the rate damage comes at you by being parried more but doing less damage, or you can choose to do more damage (and aggro) but likewise suffer more yourself.

If that's the case you would want one specific type of weapon instead of allowing for people to pick from a variety...  In a DIKU...  Where gear means everything...  Gah.  So stupid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 25, 2009, 01:09:41 PM
To be fair I think it also works in your favor when you parry - that's why parry has a higher rate of diminishing returns, because parrying is better than dodging.

It also provides me a convenient excuse to yell at melee DPS, who need lots of yelling at just because.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on December 25, 2009, 02:09:38 PM
It does, but then it still favors a slower weapon because then you see more benefit to the reduction.  Your choice is slow or slow, if you worry about the mechanics.  There should be a trade-off to make you want to choose.  Plus it's not documented.  It's terrible design.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 25, 2009, 03:20:42 PM
I'm not sure the slumming theory holds water. I know a lot of raiders who have little cash for repair bills as it is and aren't looking to make any more bills. Plus most of the people want to get their 2 badges asap and then get the hell out.  I really think there are just a lot of bad, bad players out there who get carried into gear or have run dungeons so often they can get pretty nice offspec gear like tanking stuff and then proceed to try and tank with little to no experience in it.

I'll second this. There are at least four people in my guild with 5K+ gearscores who I will flat-out ignore and refuse to group with, and usually only end up with in 25-mans where we are usually tight for tanks and healers (one is a tank, two are healers). They are fucking terrible and have been carried through every tier of content, but as a casual guild we don't kick for poor play, we try to improve it; however there are some people who just will not improve.

Gear is an indicator of potential, not skill. That said, cursory examinations for gems and enchants is usually a better indicator of ability than the raw gear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 25, 2009, 03:35:25 PM
It does, but then it still favors a slower weapon because then you see more benefit to the reduction.  Your choice is slow or slow, if you worry about the mechanics.  There should be a trade-off to make you want to choose.  Plus it's not documented.  It's terrible design.

There are classes that want fast weapons for mechanical reasons, though - warrior tanks traditionally want fast weapons because that lets them deliver more heroic strikes and the threat modifier on HS is a static value; combat rogues want fast offhands, etc. The parry thing is fairly low on the list of factors that go into what speed weapon you want to use, and doesn't factor in at all unless you're a tank. Honestly the parry-gib effect on a dual wielding DK (who wants slow weapons for a lot more reasons than just parryhaste, all their instant swings prefer slower weapons anyway) is really not that extreme, especially because on the bosses that hit really hard they have the effect turned off. The main effect of it is to make melee dps move out of the monster's front arc.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 25, 2009, 07:26:42 PM
Like Ingmar said, the parry-gib effect isn't THAT big of a problem, but you can't ignore it completely, either.

The main issue with DW DKs is that most of them are morons--the DW thing just seems to attract idiots. The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

On the dps DK front, there is a PvP build that can leverage DW to an advantage. For PvE, again, there isn't any real advantage over 2hand DKs--and a very real disadvantage of depriving your shaman and rogues of timely upgrades because you have to be a special snowflake and rock a frost/DW build. Ahh, sour grapes, you say! Yeah, to some degree, but shaman have long standing greivances with how Blizz developed DKs largely at their expense. The DW thing is just another black mark against a class that we shaman love to hate. I usually have to take a shower after playing my DK, but at least she stays with 2handers like she's supposed to!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Arrrgh on December 26, 2009, 08:04:05 AM
Like Ingmar said, the parry-gib effect isn't THAT big of a problem, but you can't ignore it completely, either.

The main issue with DW DKs is that most of them are morons--the DW thing just seems to attract idiots. The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

On the dps DK front, there is a PvP build that can leverage DW to an advantage. For PvE, again, there isn't any real advantage over 2hand DKs--and a very real disadvantage of depriving your shaman and rogues of timely upgrades because you have to be a special snowflake and rock a frost/DW build. Ahh, sour grapes, you say! Yeah, to some degree, but shaman have long standing greivances with how Blizz developed DKs largely at their expense. The DW thing is just another black mark against a class that we shaman love to hate. I usually have to take a shower after playing my DK, but at least she stays with 2handers like she's supposed to!

The high damage two handers are the same ones warriors and ret pallies want. No matter which weapon type a DK rolls on they're screwing someone else out of a possible upgrade. It's not like there's a "tanking" two hander.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on December 26, 2009, 02:03:47 PM
The main issue with DW DKs is that most of them are morons--the DW thing just seems to attract idiots. The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

On the dps DK front, there is a PvP build that can leverage DW to an advantage. For PvE, again, there isn't any real advantage over 2hand DKs--and a very real disadvantage of depriving your shaman and rogues of timely upgrades because you have to be a special snowflake and rock a frost/DW build. Ahh, sour grapes, you say! Yeah, to some degree, but shaman have long standing greivances with how Blizz developed DKs largely at their expense. The DW thing is just another black mark against a class that we shaman love to hate. I usually have to take a shower after playing my DK, but at least she stays with 2handers like she's supposed to!

I'm guessing you edited out the screams of PIPTY DEEKAYPEE MINAS in an attempt to make it less obvious you're a self-serving class bigot who can't stand other people playing the game any other way than your way. If you really feel so dirty after playing your DK, fucking delete it instead of poisoning the water-hole even more.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 26, 2009, 03:07:42 PM


Psycho.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on December 26, 2009, 09:50:39 PM
The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.
Ok, this right here is not true. While there are no tanking 2hs, there are plenty of tanking 1hs; and now that there is a 1h def/sta runeforge, you can gain much higher tanking stats (at the expense of threat, true) by dual wielding.

This effect makes hitting the defense cap much easier, which in turn attracts both a lot of fresh 80s and off-spec tanks; that is where the problem arises.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 26, 2009, 10:07:31 PM
The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.
Ok, this right here is not true. While there are no tanking 2hs, there are plenty of tanking 1hs; and now that there is a 1h def/sta runeforge, you can gain much higher tanking stats (at the expense of threat, true) by dual wielding.

This effect makes hitting the defense cap much easier, which in turn attracts both a lot of fresh 80s and off-spec tanks; that is where the problem arises.

Actually, this isn't so. I've been through this before at least twice. 1hand tank weapons aren't really suitable for DKs, so their avoidance/mitigation stats are largely a moot point. Sure, you can get better mitigation before runeforging (which is a wash between 1h and 2h), but at the expense of threat generation, which is already a DK weakness. 2hand-wise, it's all the same. So there's no advantage with DW.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on December 26, 2009, 10:32:42 PM
Ok, so you can't read. Increased avoidance at the cost of threat generation is what I said. However, there is a hard cap required for defense, while there is no "threat cap" one must reach in order to successfully tank. You can't just say avoidance is a moot point, because for many starting tanks, meeting the defense cap is a struggle.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 26, 2009, 11:55:23 PM
Like Ingmar said, the parry-gib effect isn't THAT big of a problem, but you can't ignore it completely, either.

The main issue with DW DKs is that most of them are morons--the DW thing just seems to attract idiots. The secondary issue is there is no good reason to go DW if you're a tanking DK. There is NO advantage. None. Arguably, it's still at a slight disadvantage. Personally, I think it pollutes the frost tree with fluff that could better be used to make that tree more effective. Arguably, it's the weakest DK talent tree.

On the dps DK front, there is a PvP build that can leverage DW to an advantage. For PvE, again, there isn't any real advantage over 2hand DKs--and a very real disadvantage of depriving your shaman and rogues of timely upgrades because you have to be a special snowflake and rock a frost/DW build. Ahh, sour grapes, you say! Yeah, to some degree, but shaman have long standing greivances with how Blizz developed DKs largely at their expense. The DW thing is just another black mark against a class that we shaman love to hate. I usually have to take a shower after playing my DK, but at least she stays with 2handers like she's supposed to!

Man, shut up already. Fuck you and your crybaby "waaaah my upgraaaaaaaades." EVERYONE competes with SOMEONE for upgrades. I am a 2h tank at the moment (you are SERIOUSLY a major driving force for me to switch to DW, by the way), so I steal 2h weapons from ret paladins and non-protection warriors. I carry off plate from the other two plate tanks (there is very little block plate and what there IS, they don't want anyway). When I'm my hunter, I yoink enhance shaman mail. When I'm my druid, I gobble up caster and tank AND dps (melee AND caster!) stuff depending on my specs. And so on.

This whole OH GOD THE ROGUES AND SHAMANS thing is bullshit. You just like to boo hoo about DKs, 'cause that's the cool class to hate on now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 27, 2009, 12:40:33 AM
I kinda want to make a blood DK tank. It may not be the optimal raid tanking spec, but in heroics they come off like a self-healing one man army.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 27, 2009, 01:38:11 AM
I tried blood tanking, it can be pretty fun. I love howling blast a whole bunch, though, so I swapped back to frost. Blood felt pretty damn invincible for leveling, so maybe you'd actually hit 80 with it.  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 27, 2009, 02:52:53 AM
Ten levels of Outland (blech) and then another twelve in Northrend just to end up a fresh 80 in greens and farm normals in preparation for heroics is a lot to sell myself on. Especially when I could just respec my paladin and start gathering tank gear right now if I really had the urge. As it is I'm specced ret/ret, one for PVE and one for PVP, and it's pretty fun.

If I ever get an alt off the ground, it'll probably be a DK. I loved my UO necromancer, and the DK is pretty much the WoW equivalent. I think half of what's keeping me away is the lore, because I'm a dork like that. I'll probably like them better after WOTLK is over.

Can you dual-wield as blood?  :awesome_for_real:

(No really. I've been doing two-handers for so long as a paladin that the change would be nice.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 27, 2009, 02:58:53 AM
You can dual-wield as whatever, it's just that all the dual-wield talents are in the frost tree; you can pick up the +hit for DW talent as it's only in tier one, but the other is too low. That said, you could probably level using a fishing rod as a blood DK and it would still be immeasurably easier than other classes.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on December 27, 2009, 03:56:00 AM
Yeah, DK duel-wielding in anything other than a specific type of frost spec is somewhat like "mêlée hunter", "DPS prot spec", or other such special snowflakes. Sure, you can do it but people are going to think you're not very good at playing your class. If you want to tank as blood, go for a two-hander. If you want to tank as unholy...don't. After the repeated nerfs, unholy is basically a DPS tree with the obligatory first-tier "tank" talent every DK tree has plus a couple of very specific (almost niche) defensive abilities of limited general application further down.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 27, 2009, 05:00:49 AM
Honestly the parry-gib effect on a dual wielding DK (who wants slow weapons for a lot more reasons than just parryhaste, all their instant swings prefer slower weapons anyway) is really not that extreme, especially because on the bosses that hit really hard they have the effect turned off. The main effect of it is to make melee dps move out of the monster's front arc.

It's only ever an issue when people lack expertise.  That being said, you can see it happening when you heal.  It's distinctly unpleasant, and the end result is not too dissimilar to a tank with low avoidance: the amount of healing required is increased, mana becomes more problematic, and the chance that a random tank killing combination of events will occur increases.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on December 27, 2009, 05:48:23 AM
I kinda want to make a blood DK tank. It may not be the optimal raid tanking spec, but in heroics they come off like a self-healing one man army.
I actually think it is the optimal raid tanking spec now to be quite honest; the top 10 best geared DK tanks on my server (Andorhal) according to wow-heroes are all blood.

Personally I switched to blood back before 3.2 (or maybe 3.1? the patch where they made Howling Blast the 51p instead of 21p) and haven't once regretted it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 27, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
is too low. That said, you could probably level using a fishing rod as a blood DK and it would still be immeasurably easier than other classes.

It'd be easier to level as a frost or unholy DK if you were going the fishing pole route.  The pole doesn't count as a weapon for any melee strikes so you're down to just spells.  I know this from being attacked in WG a few times while fishing and forgetting to swap the pole out.  Still won tho.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 27, 2009, 10:22:07 AM
Ten levels of Outland (blech) and then another twelve in Northrend just to end up a fresh 80 in greens and farm normals in preparation for heroics is a lot to sell myself on. Especially when I could just respec my paladin and start gathering tank gear right now if I really had the urge. As it is I'm specced ret/ret, one for PVE and one for PVP, and it's pretty fun.

If I ever get an alt off the ground, it'll probably be a DK. I loved my UO necromancer, and the DK is pretty much the WoW equivalent. I think half of what's keeping me away is the lore, because I'm a dork like that. I'll probably like them better after WOTLK is over.

Can you dual-wield as blood?  :awesome_for_real:

(No really. I've been doing two-handers for so long as a paladin that the change would be nice.)
Well on the upside you can enjoy the rather kickass DK starting area again...then have its plot not revisited while you save space goats in floaty world for ~10 levels.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 27, 2009, 01:05:50 PM
Concur on dual wield not really working for blood.

Also just to pile on a little bit, the dude saying there's OMG NO ADVANTAGE to a DW frost build is just flat out wrong. A DW frost build, today, will have higher threat output than a 2h frost build. Period, full stop, no argument. They have an extra 3% to hit and get to rune strike more, and rune strike has a large static threat component and a chunk that scales off of AP instead of weapon damage.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 27, 2009, 02:55:45 PM
Dual-wield also means 19% less chance to hit with auto-attack.  Throwing numbers at Rawr seems to indicate the positive benefit of dual-wield is pretty insignificant.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tannhauser on December 27, 2009, 03:55:16 PM
So what's Unholy spec good for?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on December 27, 2009, 04:11:53 PM
So what's Unholy spec good for?

AOE DPS and not making your locks cast Curse of Elements on raid mobs because of Ebon Plague (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51161).  Unholy can toss it out on all mobs in AOE in 2 GCDs.  1) Icy Touch or Plague Strike 2) Pestilence.  Ta-da.. 13% more magic damage.

It does good DPS, too but supposedly Blood does better.  I've stayed Unholy the whole expansion because I've enjoyed the spec a ton, despite my initial reservations about it. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 27, 2009, 06:33:42 PM
AOE DPS and not making your locks cast Curse of Elements on raid mobs because of Ebon Plague (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51161).  Unholy can toss it out on all mobs in AOE in 2 GCDs.  1) Icy Touch or Plague Strike 2) Pestilence.  Ta-da.. 13% more magic damage.

It does good DPS, too but supposedly Blood does better.  I've stayed Unholy the whole expansion because I've enjoyed the spec a ton, despite my initial reservations about it. 
Exactly.  If your 10-m group has no 'lock (as mine did) we had our DK respec Unholy from Blood and her DPS went up slightly, but also our elemental shammy, boomkin, and mage (me) did considerably more damage over time when the Ebon Plague was on them.  It was actually a boost overall to raid DPS, and it showed in how quickly we could knock out cutting edge raid bosses (on the Twins in ToC-10, we would all stack on one color and zerg it down, AND still beat the "Fast Kill" timer to win, several weeks after the raid was released).  Granted, on a melee heavy raid, it's may not be the best, but I love it on my DK and haven't switched yet (I still don't stack +SP though ;-) ).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 27, 2009, 07:09:01 PM
Moonkins apply the 13% spell damage debuff themselves, so the unholy DK was really only helping in AE situations. Single target burns such as the Twins should have been unaffected either way.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 27, 2009, 08:03:47 PM
A raid with two or more DK's should generally have an unholy one for Crypt Fever.  It's that good.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on December 27, 2009, 08:10:48 PM
Dual-wield also means 19% less chance to hit with auto-attack.  Throwing numbers at Rawr seems to indicate the positive benefit of dual-wield is pretty insignificant.

+1.

Everyone is sorta missing the point and I even got sidetracked venting on the DK hate train.

The fundamental point was there is no good reason to go DW DK on tanking. There isn't even a very good reason to go dps, but there is some utility in a howling blast build for PvP and it'll do well in PvE dps--just not substantially better than more conventional frost types. Nevertheless, you see lots of DW DK tanks and they largely suck for a variety of reasons. Enough so that they're worth avoiding in PuGs. That's my basic point and I'm sticking with it. I still think Blizzard made a mistake grafting DW talents onto the DK class before release.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on December 27, 2009, 09:59:03 PM
I find myself in near complete agreement with Shrike

DW is a viable spec for tanking for DKs.  It's probably not better than 2H.  It requires heavy investment in frost, which becomes problematic when you run across a DW DK that went Blood spec instead.  To toss out a for instance (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Uldaman&n=Malagar).  You know, theoretically speaking.

Most of the DW DKs that I have personally done instances with have not been good tanks for a variety of reasons that likely have nothing to do with DW mechanics, but rather with their lack of skill at tanking.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 28, 2009, 01:51:24 PM
I've got a level 60 warrior from Vanilla days that I'm thinking of resurrecting.  Can anyone give me a hint about prot leveling specs etc?  Is there any good warrior forums to check out other than places like EJ and TankSpot?

Just looking for general build info and gear to go for.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 28, 2009, 01:58:50 PM
TankSpot and EJ are basically your best resources for prot warriors, I'd say you'll get more out of TankSpot probably as EJ tends to focus more on the dps specs and really high end game.

There's no particularly good reason to spec protection differently for leveling as you'll spec for raiding/grouping later. Just buy vigilance last.

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000023000000000000000000000300000000000000000000000000043351225000012521330113321 is my preferred build right now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on December 28, 2009, 02:30:48 PM
Ingmar, have they fixed Improved Spell Reflect adding the threat of the reflected cast to the person who reflected it rather than the tank yet?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 28, 2009, 02:37:06 PM
Ingmar, have they fixed Improved Spell Reflect adding the threat of the reflected cast to the person who reflected it rather than the tank yet?

I don't know, I only use it when I have a PVP spec. It is just too hard to find the points for it in an all-purpose build.

There are some spots in the new 5s where it would be pretty awesome to have, though, and it was great on faction champs and Maly phase 2. I wish I could be tri-specced just so I have a build with it sitting around for when it is actually useful.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Register on December 28, 2009, 05:50:52 PM
I've got a level 60 warrior from Vanilla days that I'm thinking of resurrecting.  Can anyone give me a hint about prot leveling specs etc?  Is there any good warrior forums to check out other than places like EJ and TankSpot?

Just looking for general build info and gear to go for.

Prob with Tankspot and EJ is that they focus on Endgame tanking, and you won't find much info on Prot leveling builds.

Currently, I'm leveling a warrior alt - despite having a BOA Reaper, I respecced Prot after being inspired by a Prot war pvp video.

Here's my spec as per Armory : http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Nagrand&cn=Galadann&gn=Renaissance+SG (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Nagrand&cn=Galadann&gn=Renaissance+SG)

Will be getting anger management and impale later on, though I might be passing deep wounds for armored to the teeth\cruelty as the bleed dots is based on weapon average damage (using 1h in prot spec), and I won't have trauma to boost the bleeds.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 28, 2009, 05:58:27 PM
Honestly you could just fill in your protection spec in a "eventually I want this to be my real spec" way and level perfectly well. My protection warrior basically leveled that way from 70 to 80. I did pretty good damage and took practically none, so it was a lot faster than I expected. :P


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 28, 2009, 06:04:51 PM
Deep wounds typically will outperform cruelty, even with a fast tanking weapon. Prot spec is loaded with +15% crit to whatever talents so you won't find yourself missing it, and because of that you'll have enough crit to get the deep wounds procs reliably without cruelty. Anger management is kind of a waste too now that shield spec generates a lot of rage.

Re: other tips, Imp. bloodrage is very useful in pvp, I'm not sold on it for pve at all. Glyphing charge, again, useful for pvp, but you're only cutting 1 second off your cooldown with it and thus I would probably rather stick something in there to help me kill things a little faster for leveling, like maybe the shockwave glyph for AE packs, which is something I'd never touch in a normal PVE build - 3 seconds off that cooldown is noticeable, though (I use it in my arena build), so I'd say it would go very well in a leveling build.

I don't remember if the armor increasing talent feeds back into the AP from armored to the teeth, but if it does you probably want to get into that sooner rather than later.

EDIT: AHA I spotted the missing points. PUNCTURE. Puncture sucks, the only reason to take it is for arena where you will have rage issues and the extra 3 rage on devastate can make or break things. Otherwise its poop these days.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Register on December 28, 2009, 06:15:54 PM
Deep wounds typically will outperform cruelty, even with a fast tanking weapon. Prot spec is loaded with +15% crit to whatever talents so you won't find yourself missing it, and because of that you'll have enough crit to get the deep wounds procs reliably without cruelty. Anger management is kind of a waste too now that shield spec generates a lot of rage.

Re: other tips, Imp. bloodrage is very useful in pvp, I'm not sold on it for pve at all. Glyphing charge, again, useful for pvp, but you're only cutting 1 second off your cooldown with it and thus I would probably rather stick something in there to help me kill things a little faster for leveling, like maybe the shockwave glyph for AE packs, which is something I'd never touch in a normal PVE build - 3 seconds off that cooldown is noticeable, though (I use it in my arena build), so I'd say it would go very well in a leveling build.

I don't remember if the armor increasing talent feeds back into the AP from armored to the teeth, but if it does you probably want to get into that sooner rather than later.

Hrm... sounds like Deep Wounds is still the better choice. Anger Management wise is more for slowing rage decay flying around - for 1 pt it slows decay by 33%. Glyph of charge... is a legacy of it's former glory before being nerfed. Was thinking of changing it, but for leveling the other glyphs seems to offer marginal improvement so left it alone for now.

Leveling this prot mainly for testing out Prot PVP. How's your experience with it in PVP so far? Would love to hear some expreience\stories.... 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 28, 2009, 06:39:54 PM
Even when he loses, it usually takes a MILLION YEARS to happen. That's all I know about protection PvP, personally.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on December 28, 2009, 06:54:18 PM
Prot PvP is highly amusing.  There are actually fairly few specs that murder you, unlike the usual rock/paper/scissors relationships.  You have approximately a zillion interrupts for casters and melee has a terrible time doing actual damage to you.   

Of course, you don't do a great deal of damage, but it's fun ANYWAY.   Shockwave or shield slam can hit for like 4000 or so, which isn't awful -- that sometimes will finish off someone by surprise.  Mainly though you kill people by wearing them down slowly and watching the steam come out of their ears.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on December 28, 2009, 07:16:37 PM
The thing about Prot Damage, is you can't get rid of it and you can't ignore it. If a Prot warrior decides to stick on you, it's going to have it's way with you without much recourse.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on December 28, 2009, 08:18:08 PM
One of my favorite past times in Vanilla WoW was going into battlegrounds as my prot warrior in my tanking set and watching rogues in Marshall/Grand Marshall gear fruitlessly attempt to stunlock me to death. I frequently had rogues give up trying to kill me and move on to other targets because their 1-2 digit white damage (even if they were rocking epic weapons) wasn't getting the job done.

Of course mages and warlocks ate me alive but rogues were the real fiends of the BGs for a long time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on December 28, 2009, 08:52:11 PM
Until they nerfed damage shield a bit (and weapon dps went up) I used to come out of stunlock having more health left than the rogue who started stabbing me.  :awesome_for_real:

I can write up some more strategy type stuff tomorrow but it arena it boils down to harrassing the healer and keeping them locked down(interrupt, stun, silence, stun, fear, repeat) until its time to burst someone, then you throw on the improved disarm damage boost on your fully sundered target, stun them, and go to town with everyone else blowing their cooldowns.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ashamanchill on December 28, 2009, 11:14:49 PM
Prot warriors are a spec I love running into in the BGs when I'm too lazy to swap out my tanking gear and am running around in bear form. I've yet to lose a strict one on one with them.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 29, 2009, 04:34:58 AM
Another vote for leveling as Prot. I switched from fury near the end of BC all the way through now, and it was actually a lot of fun. I took on elites I had no business fighting by popping cooldowns and wearing them down.  The spec doesn't just mow through everything like a higher dps build, but it goes at a fast enough pace that it feels just as quick.  And if you're on a pvp server, as mentioned, an even-level opponent will have a hard time with you.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 29, 2009, 06:45:14 AM
So I was setting up my warrior last night but I didn't get the time to actually play the guy.

I'm trying to set up my hotkeys and I don't know what's good to use.  I also didn't use any talent points yet.

What are the abilities you use most often (non-cooldown ones)?  I'm gonna look like a total noob for a while.

Also, I have 295 Mining 105 Enchanting.  Should I drop enchanting for something?  Or should I just keep going with it?  I need a prof that I can make a little bit of profit since all my toons are poor.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on December 29, 2009, 06:56:41 AM
Enchanting will cost a lot to raise and is pretty impossible to raise naturally during the course of leveling (especially here since you'll be spanning expansions).   Keep the mining; I might add skinning to that, given you don't have to track 2 things at once.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on December 29, 2009, 07:29:40 AM
Enchanting also doesn't give any serious bonuses to a warrior at max level either, so other than being able to shard items and enchant your own gear, it's not that useful like blacksmithing.  I'd also recommend skinning because of the extra critical bonus you get and not needing to track 2 different items.

And as far as leveling protection as a warrior, what stance do you use and what skill rotation would you use?  I am leveling mine as Arms and have the rotation down pretty well, but that's only because another warrior gave me some advice and he has since quit the game.  Leveling info for warriors I've found is not the easiest to find...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on December 29, 2009, 07:31:32 AM
Enchanting has self only ring enchants that aren't bad.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 29, 2009, 07:46:28 AM
Enchanting will cost a lot to raise and is pretty impossible to raise naturally during the course of leveling (especially here since you'll be spanning expansions).   Keep the mining; I might add skinning to that, given you don't have to track 2 things at once.

Is selling leather really going to bag you decent cash?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on December 29, 2009, 08:42:01 AM
Depends on the server, probably, but it seems to sell pretty durn well on Doomhammer, even the lower level stuff.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: El Gallo on December 29, 2009, 08:47:14 AM
There's an addon called WetSpot (I didn't name it) that will automatically cycle between multiple tracking types while you are out of combat (so it doesn't mess up your GCD while fighting).  It makes herb + mining feasible, if that's your fancy.

Blacksmithing and jewelcrafting are very slightly better than other non-gathering professions if you are really min-maxing, but just go with what you want and what is useful/profitable/feasible to do while levelling.  There's no way BS/JC will be profitable or feasible to do while levelling.  I'd just get two gathering professions, or maybe herb+alchemy, on a levelling character.  

Levelling as prot is fun as hell (did most of 60-80 that way).  Shield slam, shockwave, and revenge when they're up, concussion blow and devastate when they aren't.  If you have a group, use shockwave and CB as crowd control tools, along with intimidating shout.  You can macro shield block to shield slam for bigger slam hits (the macro works because shield block doesn't trigger GCD).  Levelling while working toward a standard tank build is fine. You might want to get improved spell reflect (for dungeons) and improved disarm (for soloing) if you are really anal.  

Anyway, it's not as fast as levelling fury, but you'll have a better time with groups and soloing small-group quests in levelling gear as prot (note: once you're geared, fury becomes the best boss-soloing spec of the standard specs [the best of all is a fury-prot hybrid]).  I haven't levelled as Arms since vanilla, so I can't say much about it.  

Doing BGs as prot is also fun as hell.  In arenas, I've found it frustrating since I generally just get ignored by people who know what they are doing, which means no rage (only what I get from charge and white hits with a 1-hander!), which means not much fun.  The difficulty I've had with prot pvp builds is the choice between impale+deep wounds and piercing how. I usually find that I can't live without howl, but ymmv.  

Note, however, that I suck balls at pvp, play only low arena ranks, and haven't tried to arena with prot since 3.1.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 29, 2009, 10:55:33 AM
Did I read that there was an easier way to get into the Outlands other than via the Portal in one of the patch notes?  I thought I remember something like that.

Oh and what glyphs would ya recommend at 60?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: El Gallo on December 29, 2009, 11:11:01 AM
Yes, there is a portal to the outlands near each mage portal trainer (I think; I know there's one in the orgrimmar valley of spirits and the undercity magic quarter). 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 29, 2009, 11:33:35 AM
Yes, there is a portal to the outlands near each mage portal trainer (I think; I know there's one in the orgrimmar valley of spirits and the undercity magic quarter). 

Technically it goes to the Dark Portal, so you still have to take it but you don't have to travel to the Blasted Lands.

Is selling leather really going to bag you decent cash?

I don't find leather to sell for amazing amounts, but it is non-trivial and otherwise you're leaving some amount of potential cash on a skinnable mob.  Once you get to Northrend, on my server(s) the Arctic Fur you get once in a while goes for 70-100g.

If you want to min-max a bit more, you can pick up jewelcrafting. You make/get most of the mats by mining, and you get to add more sockets to gear at max level, not to mention cut your own gems and make the odd useful BOP trinket.  It's a little less in the bank, and a little more running around gathering as you level up, but it may be worth it depending on your playstyle.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on December 29, 2009, 01:03:19 PM
I havn't min/maxed in about a year, but I still know what each prof does for yourself.  I'm mainly looking for current trends in what makes money in most economies these days.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on December 29, 2009, 01:10:19 PM
For a levelling toon, the only things that will sell reliably are ores, leather, cloth, herbs and glyphs. You can make money off other lowe level stuff, but it requires a much greater degree of effort.

JC is good at endgame, but the market is rather over-saturated. The only technically overpowered profession is tailoring, since the cloak enchants do offer more MP5, Spellpower or AP than any other profession. That said, blacksmithing+JC offers the most flexibility in your stat extensions, but is an effort to level.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Drubear on December 29, 2009, 03:48:54 PM
I don't find leather to sell for amazing amounts, but it is non-trivial and otherwise you're leaving some amount of potential cash on a skinnable mob.  Once you get to Northrend, on my server(s) the Arctic Fur you get once in a while goes for 70-100g.

You either haven't checked the market recently or your server has gold running like rivers since you can now go to Braeg Stoutbeard in Dal ( http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=32515 ) and buy them for 10 Heavy Borean Leather.

The leather sells I'd bet - be sure to check your local AH for latest prices...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 29, 2009, 05:45:08 PM
I don't find leather to sell for amazing amounts, but it is non-trivial and otherwise you're leaving some amount of potential cash on a skinnable mob.  Once you get to Northrend, on my server(s) the Arctic Fur you get once in a while goes for 70-100g.

You either haven't checked the market recently or your server has gold running like rivers since you can now go to Braeg Stoutbeard in Dal ( http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=32515 ) and buy them for 10 Heavy Borean Leather.

The leather sells I'd bet - be sure to check your local AH for latest prices...

I knew it would drop as of 3.3, but I hadn't checked since then. They are still showing 40-60g.  That's not bad for a single mob drop. I probably got 10 from 70-80, which isn't a bad haul.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on December 29, 2009, 09:14:38 PM
If you want to min-max a bit more, you can pick up jewelcrafting. You make/get most of the mats by mining, and you get to add more sockets to gear at max level, not to mention cut your own gems and make the odd useful BOP trinket.  It's a little less in the bank, and a little more running around gathering as you level up, but it may be worth it depending on your playstyle.
This is not true, that is blacksmithing. JC gives you the more powerful epic gems.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on December 29, 2009, 09:17:38 PM
If you want to min-max a bit more, you can pick up jewelcrafting. You make/get most of the mats by mining, and you get to add more sockets to gear at max level, not to mention cut your own gems and make the odd useful BOP trinket.  It's a little less in the bank, and a little more running around gathering as you level up, but it may be worth it depending on your playstyle.
This is not true, that is blacksmithing. JC gives you the more powerful epic gems.

Whoops, you're right.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on January 04, 2010, 07:08:33 AM
I hit 70 on my Warrior and I'm getting tired leveling as protection but I'll be buying dualspec tonight.  I'm going to go Fury/Arms in combination with my prot spec.

Can anyone give me a spec/glyph lineup for Fury? 

I'm thinking about something along these lines: Fury/Arms w/ Glyphs spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LN0czfhZGxf0Vku0eRVzAo:MGmM0z)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on January 04, 2010, 10:22:08 AM
If you want to min-max a bit more, you can pick up jewelcrafting. You make/get most of the mats by mining, and you get to add more sockets to gear at max level, not to mention cut your own gems and make the odd useful BOP trinket.  It's a little less in the bank, and a little more running around gathering as you level up, but it may be worth it depending on your playstyle.
This is not true, that is blacksmithing. JC gives you the more powerful epic gems.

Whoops, you're right.

BC's can socket hand and wrist items.  The belt buckle that adds sockets to belts can be sold/traded to anyone.  I typically add a socket to my belts once I get item level 200+.  It is a prismatic socket, which means any color fits.  You don't get a bonus from the gem though, just the improvement from the gem itself.

Also, enchanters can enchant their own rings only.  That's their personal perk.

Leatherworkers have leg enhancements.

Tailors have some specific cloak and leg enhancements too.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 04, 2010, 10:55:18 AM
If you want to min-max a bit more, you can pick up jewelcrafting. You make/get most of the mats by mining, and you get to add more sockets to gear at max level, not to mention cut your own gems and make the odd useful BOP trinket.  It's a little less in the bank, and a little more running around gathering as you level up, but it may be worth it depending on your playstyle.
This is not true, that is blacksmithing. JC gives you the more powerful epic gems.

Whoops, you're right.

BC's can socket hand and wrist items.  The belt buckle that adds sockets to belts can be sold/traded to anyone.  I typically add a socket to my belts once I get item level 200+.  It is a prismatic socket, which means any color fits.  You don't get a bonus from the gem though, just the improvement from the gem itself.

Also, enchanters can enchant their own rings only.  That's their personal perk.

Leatherworkers have leg enhancements.

Tailors have some specific cloak and leg enhancements too.

The tailor and leatherworker leg enhancements are no different than the ones they can make for other people, they're just cheaper. A leatherworker's actual special benefit is super wrist enchants.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on January 04, 2010, 10:51:00 PM
I'm still shocked that all this vehicle garbage made it past Blizzard's sniff-test. I just finished Oculus and man, what a bunch of Not Fun.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on January 04, 2010, 11:09:33 PM
Yeah Oculus sucks until you're in a group where everyone knows exactly how to do it, and even then it's only not-horrible. Random pugs that get the Oculus disband on entry 50% of the time and of the remaining 50% only 50% of them actually finish it  :oh_i_see:

EoE is even worse. Our weekly random raid has been Malygos 2 weeks in a row now and everyone's fed up with it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 04, 2010, 11:47:29 PM
I'm still shocked that all this vehicle garbage made it past Blizzard's sniff-test. I just finished Oculus and man, what a bunch of Not Fun.

Quote
To encourage players not to shy away from the many invigorating adventures to be had in The Oculus, we have applied a change to enhance the rewards players are provided when selected for this dungeon via the Random Heroic option in the Dungeon Finder. Once Ley-Guardian Eregos is defeated, one loot bag per character will be provided in his chest in addition to the current rewards. Each loot bag will offer players rare gems, two additional Emblems of Triumph, and a chance of being rewarded the Reins of the Blue Drake. These fine treasures could be yours should you honor your fellow party members by besting the challenges contained within The Oculus! Keep in mind, however, that these extra loot bags will only be awarded to each party member if Oculus is selected by the Dungeon Finder when players choose the Random Heroic option.

In light of this change, the Reins of the Azure Drake will now have a chance of dropping in both 10- and 25-player versions of The Eye of Eternity.

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on January 05, 2010, 12:08:49 AM
I hit 70 on my Warrior and I'm getting tired leveling as protection but I'll be buying dualspec tonight.  I'm going to go Fury/Arms in combination with my prot spec.

Can anyone give me a spec/glyph lineup for Fury? 

I'm thinking about something along these lines: Fury/Arms w/ Glyphs spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LN0czfhZGxf0Vku0eRVzAo:MGmM0z)

That spec/glyph setup looks fine for finishing off your guy.  Fury has always been the defacto warrior leveling spec.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on January 05, 2010, 12:51:21 AM
Yeah, it was the first time I had actually sat through the entire thing. It'll also be the last. If everyone else wants to stay in it to get some ugly drake, maybe that means I'll get it less. Of course the reward wasn't in yet.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on January 05, 2010, 01:37:50 AM
After the nerfs, Oculus is actually quick (in all of my 3.3 runs so far someone got the 'make it count' achievement), not hard (all of the bosses seem to have been significantly nerfed along with the caster groups that used to wipe parties back in the day), and with drake scaling, even the last boss is very hard to wipe on now (I did a 5-amber run the other day in a pug). I personally don't really hate the instance, but 90% of my guild does - and I can understand their reasons.

Even after the nerfs, it's still an annoying instance with all the "hop on drake" "hop off drake" "oh god someone aggroed a blue dragon" "gah my UI mod doesn't show the dismount key" "my heal mod doesn't allow me to target drakes" issues. Oh yeah, sometimes I got randomly ported to Westfall while doing the instance back in the day... if that's not an indication of bugginess, I don't know what is.  :awesome_for_real:

Malygos is more of the same, only it's actually much more difficult than other raids that give similar rewards. Why not just do OS which is simpler and faster for even more badges and a 22slot bag?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on January 05, 2010, 03:09:29 AM
I hit 70 on my Warrior and I'm getting tired leveling as protection but I'll be buying dualspec tonight.  I'm going to go Fury/Arms in combination with my prot spec.

Can anyone give me a spec/glyph lineup for Fury?  

I'm thinking about something along these lines: Fury/Arms w/ Glyphs spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LN0czfhZGxf0Vku0eRVzAo:MGmM0z)

Improved Cleave and Improved Execute are filler talents.  5/5 Unbridled Wrath will actually return less rage than your single point in Anger Management.  Piercing Howl and Heroic Fury are good utility talents and I would recommend taking them for grinding levels if you have the points to spend. 5/5 Commanding Presence should be taken as it is worth more damage than anything that low in the tree except Cruelty and Armoured to the Teeth unless you're in the habit of lining up three mobs and doing nothing except Cleave.

Heroic Strike and Whirlwind should be glyphed as they are worth far more than anything else.  Third slot should be Cleave or Execute depending on needs/preference.  I would take Cleave because shit should be dying so fast that you barely have time to get in one execute.

EDIT: Tankspot guide. (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f177/57781-wotlk-fury-warrior-guide.html)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on January 05, 2010, 03:47:35 AM
I thought Malygos is a really fun fight. If you're too retarded to press 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2, and move right, you probably can't feed or clothe yourself.

Oculus still isn't worth running because of how annoying the vehicle mounting/dismounting/Z-Axis aggro shit is.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kail on January 05, 2010, 04:27:26 AM
Quote
To encourage players not to shy away from the many invigorating adventures to be had in The Oculus...

I note nothing in there to help us paupers still running non-heroics.  Damned annoying to hit "random dungeon" and get tossed into a level 79 dungeon with no loot you can use where the bosses don't drop badges and where you have to spend ten minutes of every run going "no, higher, we're above you, higher, no stop, lower, no, just - argh, just look down, see me hopping here, come here, land... hang on, I'll mount up and lead you over here".


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: El Gallo on January 05, 2010, 07:41:03 AM
One of the problems with occulus is that vehicle fights suck.  The other is that 3d movement in the game also sucks.  These sucks interact exponentially.

Draeg, your build is fine.  SInce you're just levelling with this spec, I'd get heroic fury and also look into enrage, which should just about always be up.  Agreed on WW and HS being almost-mandatory glyphs.  I'd make a case for taking Bloodthirst as your third glyph.  It'll reduce your eating/bandaging time from "almost never" to "never."  It also helps when soloing 2-3 man quests.  Even some 5s.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 05, 2010, 08:33:19 AM
Oculus is pretty easy these days, although I more than understand why people don't like it.  I don't particularly like it myself.  Having said that, the instance that really irks me right now is CoS.  Partly because there's a nice countdown timer that shows you how long you've been in the instance.  I had a run where the guy revealing crates couldn't find the last one, as a result the first boss died after the countdown for the random dungeon finder reached 0.  This is very painful, considering there are multiple instances that can be finished before the countdown timer reaches 0.  Including Oculus.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on January 05, 2010, 10:01:08 AM
I think I'll still be dropping out of Occulus whenver it pops up.  Once was enough. 

CoS is somewhat bad because no matter how good your group is, it still ends up being one of the longer instances due to the LOLORE and event mechanics.  If you're lucky enough to grab a good group on DTK, AN, or a handful of others, you can be done with the instance before the queue timer is done.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on January 05, 2010, 10:05:46 AM
I hate Occulus a lot less than I used to, but it gets annoying having half the group drop on entrance, so I still hate getting it.

I hadn't gotten the new five mans via random until yesterday, where it dropped me into HoR. OK fine, I hadn't tanked it on my druid yet, but I can probably do it. But then two DPSers inform me my gear sucks too much so we will obviously fail, later! That's the first time that has happened to me, it was exciting! So I dropped group and did something else.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 05, 2010, 11:27:05 AM
I hate Occulus a lot less than I used to, but it gets annoying having half the group drop on entrance, so I still hate getting it.

I hadn't gotten the new five mans via random until yesterday, where it dropped me into HoR. OK fine, I hadn't tanked it on my druid yet, but I can probably do it. But then two DPSers inform me my gear sucks too much so we will obviously fail, later! That's the first time that has happened to me, it was exciting! So I dropped group and did something else.

It's really nothing personal so don't take it as such but either as a healer or as dps I have come to have a very low threshold when it comes to the random pugs.  I mean I'm sure a lot of tanks out there are good but if you're a druid and have say, less than 40k hp than HoR is going to be a pain in the ass in an already hard instance.  might as well just wait 15min and try again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on January 05, 2010, 11:48:33 AM
H HoR should be less of a problem now:

Quote
The ghost waves at the beginning of both normal and heroic Halls of Reflection have undergone several changes that should make them easier to defeat such as preventing 2 mages or 2 mercenaries from spawning in the 5 mob pulls, a shorter duration of the spectral footman’s shield bash, and the spectral mage’s flamestrike having a longer cast time, shorter duration, and (in heroic) doing less damage.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Evildrider on January 05, 2010, 11:51:08 AM
H HoR should be less of a problem now:

Quote
The ghost waves at the beginning of both normal and heroic Halls of Reflection have undergone several changes that should make them easier to defeat such as preventing 2 mages or 2 mercenaries from spawning in the 5 mob pulls, a shorter duration of the spectral footman’s shield bash, and the spectral mage’s flamestrike having a longer cast time, shorter duration, and (in heroic) doing less damage.

Wow those were totally like the two biggest wipe problems.  lol.  Although those fights were fun and doable, even without the nerf.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on January 05, 2010, 12:31:33 PM
I hate Occulus a lot less than I used to, but it gets annoying having half the group drop on entrance, so I still hate getting it.

I hadn't gotten the new five mans via random until yesterday, where it dropped me into HoR. OK fine, I hadn't tanked it on my druid yet, but I can probably do it. But then two DPSers inform me my gear sucks too much so we will obviously fail, later! That's the first time that has happened to me, it was exciting! So I dropped group and did something else.

It's really nothing personal so don't take it as such but either as a healer or as dps I have come to have a very low threshold when it comes to the random pugs.  I mean I'm sure a lot of tanks out there are good but if you're a druid and have say, less than 40k hp than HoR is going to be a pain in the ass in an already hard instance.  might as well just wait 15min and try again.

What's funny about this is that bad DPS is at least as likely to cause failure in HoR due to the nature of the final part of the instance, whereas in most instances bad DPS can kind of coast by.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 05, 2010, 12:55:14 PM
Those changes to HHoR address a number of issues I have with that instance, although I still live in fear of someone dying on Falric because of the dot/horrify he throws out.  Had someone die to that last time, with absolutely nothing I could do to save him, healing on the paladin.

I do sort of want to falcon punch paladins that don't cleanse diseases for me when I'm playing the druid.  Especially in HPoS.  Yay for DoTs that do horrific amounts of damage on a tank that can cleanse them that spread to other players!

 :angryfist:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on January 05, 2010, 01:26:01 PM
With all of my spectacular upgrades, I'm managed to put myself 52 points under the spell hit cap (with talents/raid composition).   :awesome_for_real: Guess it's time to do some WG, because there's not a lot of hit gear left laying around for me to upgrade to.  Before this flurry of upgrades I was sitting at nearly 15% with little effort.  I hate hit rating with the strength of a thousand suns.  

edit: Forgot about food.  /facepalm.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on January 05, 2010, 01:39:32 PM
I hate Occulus a lot less than I used to, but it gets annoying having half the group drop on entrance, so I still hate getting it.

I hadn't gotten the new five mans via random until yesterday, where it dropped me into HoR. OK fine, I hadn't tanked it on my druid yet, but I can probably do it. But then two DPSers inform me my gear sucks too much so we will obviously fail, later! That's the first time that has happened to me, it was exciting! So I dropped group and did something else.

It's really nothing personal so don't take it as such but either as a healer or as dps I have come to have a very low threshold when it comes to the random pugs.  I mean I'm sure a lot of tanks out there are good but if you're a druid and have say, less than 40k hp than HoR is going to be a pain in the ass in an already hard instance.  might as well just wait 15min and try again.

I  have 35k-ish unbuffed, I can't remember how much I have when I am buffed out the butt, which I would've been, since I would've taken a flask and we had a paladin and a priest. No big deal REALLY, the ghost waves weren't something I really wanted to try tanking as a druid, the lack of silence/deathgrip/etc would've drove me crazy.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 05, 2010, 01:41:15 PM
I suspect druids are the one kind of tank that really is better off doing the alcove thing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 05, 2010, 02:05:46 PM
I was with an internet badass DK tank once that thought the alcove strat was for pussies. After getting killed for the third time by a mage/hunter ghost while trying to heal I quit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 05, 2010, 02:10:10 PM
I was with an internet badass DK tank once that thought the alcove strat was for pussies. After getting killed for the third time by a mage/hunter ghost while trying to heal I quit.

For a paladin/DK/warrior that knows what he or she is doing, the hallway is a much, much better place. Especially now that they've made it so you'll never get 2 mages.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 05, 2010, 02:10:26 PM
I was with an internet badass DK tank once that thought the alcove strat was for pussies. After getting killed for the third time by a mage/hunter ghost while trying to heal I quit.
I dislike healing in the alcove becasue of all the LoS issues.  I also don't like ranged DPSing from there either due to the same thing.  I like the entrance way best, but it really requires a competent tank to do it right.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on January 05, 2010, 02:18:33 PM
Healers and Ranged DPS just need to move out of the corner once everything is in the corner. It was pretty common in TBC heroics, but WotLK has trained everyone to just plow ahead.


I still prefer the open space/hallway myself, the corner is for cowering cowards!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 05, 2010, 02:22:40 PM
Healers and Ranged DPS just need to move out of the corner once everything is in the corner.
The tank I was healing kept yelling "get back in the fucking corner you idiots!" every time someone would move out of the corner.  And the mobs always targeted us in the corner first anyways.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on January 05, 2010, 02:33:46 PM
Yea, that's just someone parroting the "talking point" of the instance without understanding what or why.


The Range/DPS just has to reset into the corner every wave, wait for mobs, wait for pickup, back out pewpewpew repeat.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 05, 2010, 04:25:26 PM
I still prefer the open space/hallway myself, the corner is for cowering cowards!

From a healer's perspective the open space is preferable. As it was the first time in there we tanked it on the podium half the time because we didn't know what was coming. The corner is for bad tanks and bad dps.

On another note Rankwatch is an astonishing and sometimes amusing addon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 05, 2010, 05:40:32 PM
Oh I got to heal H-HoR again.  From the corner.  Again.  Warrior tank.  3rd wave begins, the pally gets aggro somehow and starts going down.  I assume we are fighting now with the tank going to pick up whatever has caused the pally to go down (being in the corner it should be melee, right?), so I maneuver a bit to get a heal off.  Then I get 4 mobs on me.  I die and everyone says "hey, stand in the corner until the tank gets aggro!" to which I respond with "if you want me to not heal people next time, I'll gladly let them die" to which the person who was going down says "fuck you, I was in the corner like I was supposed to be" at which point I say "all righty" and leave.  I really hate this instance because it brings out people's inner retard so strongly.  I am much too old and tired to put up with kids yelling at me over some game.

I'm sure someone will say I was in the wrong for moving, but when I am in the stupid corner and get a LoS issue trying to heal you, I assume we're fighting and am going to treat it as such.  And it's not like I had even moved too far away from their precious fucking corner but got ate up by the rogue and footman anyways.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 05, 2010, 05:44:32 PM
No, your group was just a bunch of failures and idiots, like most used to facerolling instances these days so they don't think when in HOR.  I won't even run it in pugs anymore.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on January 05, 2010, 10:02:01 PM
I may be EXTRA dumb, but I really do not understand the appeal of the corner strategy at all. Maybe because I've never actually done it that way.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on January 05, 2010, 10:28:47 PM
I may be EXTRA dumb, but I really do not understand the appeal of the corner strategy at all. Maybe because I've never actually done it that way.
Instead of the adds being spread out and aggroing on everyone, they are all nice and tightly packed for the tank to pick up with consecrate/swipe/death and decay/fail to with thunderclap/.  Then the DPS can AOE the adds down.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on January 05, 2010, 10:34:06 PM
Same as a LoS pull in the days of yore, really.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on January 05, 2010, 11:17:56 PM
Yeah, its all about getting the mobs where you want them as a tank.

I occasionally tank the place as feral, and I would flat out refuse to tank it in a pug in the middle of the room.  Why?  Because 90% of the time, the puggies are spread out across half the room, and when the wave spawns, you end up with 4 mobs (or 5 in some waves), aggroed on 4 different people.  DPS almost ALWAYS start wailing on something (usually not the same something at that), one of them always ends up aggroed on the healer, and meanwhile i am left to try to get and hold aggro on often 2 ranged mobs, and 2 mele mobs spread across the whole room, with only Taunt, Faerie fire, and feral charge + mele, pretty much all of which have cooldowns long enough to let someone pull something off of me again because i am working on the mob WAY over there beating on random DPS number 3.   I spend 45 harrowing seconds mashing every hotkey, macro and ability I have trying to keep the mobs on me as my personal stress level goes through the roof, only have to repeat the WHOLE process over again 5 seconds later, and then do it 10 more times......

No thanks.

If everyone hides in a corner (or really anywhere line of sight) the mobs all conveniently run pretty much into my lap, where i can just swipe, mangle, maul and then leasurely cruise through the rest of the pull.

It really does make a world of difference.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on January 06, 2010, 12:22:34 AM
When I run H-HOR on my feral tank, I usually do it with a ret guildie. I also prefer tanking in the entranceway, allows for much cleaner CC. Repentance, turn undead, holy wrath aoe stun all make a lot of difference. Same if a feral guildie is tanking - I get on my unholy DK and deathgrip / strangulate loose casters, gnaw stun melee when the tank gets stunned, interrupt heals/fire spells, use army of the dead to ease tank/healer stress during the last waves. Plus as a dk I can solo a phantom mage with almost zero healing required by abusing bone shield, IBF, anti-magic shell, ghoul stun, and my own interrupt / silence.

Actually I think most classes have their own tricks and CC to make H-HOR easier on tanks, it's just that most pugs only use their aoe faceroll buttons. Oh well. :p


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 06, 2010, 12:31:22 AM
Hallway, as a warrior tank is better for a number of reasons:

- Mages stop far enough away to be CCed, and you can bring them in with heroic throw/gag order later when you want to. Without CC you can still just tank them with spell reflect. True to a lesser extent with riflemen, but you have to charge/disarm them to get them to move, these are the #1 choice for CC if you only have one CCer, or for a DK dpser to be designated to death grip into the pack.
- There's actually enough room to use intervene if something gets loose and starts chasing a healer
- People have space to get out of flamestrike
- You can actually see exactly what the fuck is going on without the alcove tight space camera issues, and have room to maneuver piles of mobs for shockwave purposes, and can plan ahead when to use your shockwave/thunderclap on the guys coming in to the room so you don't miss any
- The healer will by default be far enough away that the warrior guys won't shield bash them, so they don't have to think about where to stand (important for PUG healers)

I kill mages last, just leave them CCed/reflect tanked til it is time to stunlock them to death so they can't duplicate themselves. There's literally no advantage I can see to using the alcove as a warrior except for the rare 2 rifleman pulls, those are the only ones that are better in the alcove.

EDIT: Nobody is suggesting tanking out in the middle, that would be dumb. The choices are alcove (better for bears especially without CC) and hallway (better for everyone else basically.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 06, 2010, 03:24:59 AM
I may be EXTRA dumb, but I really do not understand the appeal of the corner strategy at all. Maybe because I've never actually done it that way.
Instead of the adds being spread out and aggroing on everyone, they are all nice and tightly packed for the tank to pick up with consecrate/swipe/death and decay/fail to with thunderclap/.  Then the DPS can AOE the adds down.

DK's don't really care which strat, because D&D is huge and fills the hall or the alcove if placed right.  Pestilence should be glyphed as a tank, too, so diseases will hit in either position as well.  The hall's my preference because it allows for actual CC. If you get classes that are bight enough to remember to use it or will actually listen to you when you say to lock it down.  That's not many these days.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on January 06, 2010, 06:23:24 AM
Our groups useed to use the corner, but stopped due to the things said here.

The group stays with their back to the door that closes behind you.  The tank always stays out a bit in the opening to the middle of the room.  There is plenty of time for the tank to pick everything up before the dps and healing begins.  This strat works as long as people are patient enough to let the tank do their job up front.  From then on out it is all about focusing on each target at a time and doing the targets in the right order.

Precedence is typically: merc-priest-mage-tank target for rest.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on January 06, 2010, 06:27:14 AM
We had two 10-mans go into the new wing of ICC last night.  Talk about ratcheting up the difficulty a bit.  You know it is going to be hard when there are traps that insta kill you directly on the other side of the portal to get in.  I think half the raid died trying to get through the "Frogger 2.0."  I can see this being a PITA for a long time coming now, much like the original Frogger in Nax.

Ran out of time to down the first boss, but got a few shots at him.  We'll be trying again tonight.  Hard, but fun.

*Edit:  Oh, Rogues can disarm these traps!  Our rogue in the group was yelling, "I finally have something to do again!"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 06, 2010, 06:36:15 AM
We had two 10-mans go into the new wing of ICC last night.  Talk about ratcheting up the difficulty a bit.
We laughed at the new frogger.  It wasn't particularly difficult as it's just 2 places to avoid, and it's pretty lengthy for the on and off phase.  At least when you get past it you get the teleporter from down below and never have to worry about it again ;-)

That said, the trash is quite difficult in and of itself.  I don't see many PUGs getting past Stinky and Precious alone as they are essentially mini-boss Gluth part 2 in their own right and require ALOT of coordination and things going well to not wipe to them.  Rotface himself wasn't *overly* difficult, once we figure out how to get the slimes to move correctly and be managed, we'll have it.  As we said, it's a fight that looks really easy and really hard at the same time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 06, 2010, 07:54:25 AM
I like that precious has a big red ribbon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on January 06, 2010, 07:56:39 AM
I may be EXTRA dumb, but I really do not understand the appeal of the corner strategy at all. Maybe because I've never actually done it that way.


It's just LoSing the ranged mobs, instead of pulling a pack, they have to magic themselves in so it takes a few moments longer. You would do it if you tanked it on your Druid, I have little doubt. On your DK, pffft  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 06, 2010, 08:52:59 AM
Rotface himself wasn't *overly* difficult, once we figure out how to get the slimes to move correctly and be managed, we'll have it.  As we said, it's a fight that looks really easy and really hard at the same time.

Can you elect to do either Festergut or Rotface? World of Logs sugegsts that Festergut is the easier, so I'm planning to take my group that way tonight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 06, 2010, 09:00:25 AM
Festergut seems to be overtuned, guilds that can clear 4/5 ToGC25 are downing him with seconds to spare.

On our best effort, which was actually pretty close to perfect (for us) he enraged with 10,000,000 health left, out of 40,000,000.  We're not downing this boss... ever.  As he currently stands.

Of course, the forums are filled with gleeful postards declaring that anyone can pull 7.5k dps in ulduar gear, and so the rest of us should man up and suck down not being able to clear current content.  At last!  At long last!  This accursed tyranny of average players clearing content that is obviously only meant to be done by 1% of the playerbase or less has come to an end!  I really hate those people.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: bhodi on January 06, 2010, 09:08:23 AM
Festergut is a DPS check, Rotface is a retard check.

We went for rotface; just ran out of time. We'll get him tonight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 06, 2010, 09:15:25 AM
Festergut is a DPS check, Rotface is a retard check.

We went for rotface; just ran out of time. We'll get him tonight.

You'll need about 150k raidwide dps for festergut on 25m and anyone saying they pull 7,500 in uld gear is a liar.  Either way it's rough and not JUST a dps check, he'll hit your tanks HARD. Festergut is the patchwerk of ICC but more like level 60 patchwerk.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 06, 2010, 09:18:18 AM
I calculated that you need around 5.3K DPS per DPS (counting the tanks combined as equal to a single DPS) with a 2 tank, 3 healer 5 DPS setup in 10 to down Festergut, which doesn't seem unreasonable.

Does that seem right?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: bhodi on January 06, 2010, 09:19:00 AM
Yeah but it's more like 7.5k on 25man. Which is what people are complaining about.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 06, 2010, 09:20:36 AM
I figured, we can't get past lady DW on 25, due to the way failure scales upwards; but out 10-man groups are solid and clear the first four in an hour or so.

edit: On another note, World of Logs is reporting that the failure rate on Rotface is higher in 10-man than 25-man; is this a case of awful tuning?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 06, 2010, 09:22:28 AM
I calculated that you need around 5.3K DPS per DPS (counting the tanks combined as equal to a single DPS) with a 2 tank, 3 healer 5 DPS setup in 10 to down Festergut, which doesn't seem unreasonable.

Does that seem right?

Haven't tried him in 10m, my group is gonna try two healing since our 10 rolls with two spriests we'll try and keep the raid up through VE.

With our 25m though we did 150k raid dps and had about..20 seconds on the clock to spare? our dps ranged from 6800-9k depending on class(it's an easier fight for melee, no movement) but one attempt we had two dps down and couldnt beat the enrage which isnt really an enrage, its an instant raid wipe(no last minute saves here)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on January 06, 2010, 09:38:48 AM
We did 10 man Rotface and failed twice before stopping for the night.  The way it went, I'm sure we'll get it tonight.  We have plenty of dps.

As for 25 mans being more successful than 10 in general.  That seems right to me.  If you have a group that is raring to go for the new content the night it opens on 25-man, you are most likely (not all) a hardcore raid group.  Those typically will have everyone peaked out on gear prior to the new content coming out.

10-mans?  Nah, that's still pretty casual in comparison. Those groups, on average, will probably be surprised by the new content for gear checks.  I'm just talking averages here, not absolutes, obviously.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on January 06, 2010, 12:54:53 PM
I may be EXTRA dumb, but I really do not understand the appeal of the corner strategy at all. Maybe because I've never actually done it that way.


It's just LoSing the ranged mobs, instead of pulling a pack, they have to magic themselves in so it takes a few moments longer. You would do it if you tanked it on your Druid, I have little doubt. On your DK, pffft  :grin:

Yeah, upon reflection, I would probably want to do it as my druid. Not as anything else, though. And yeah, I was totally not saying I would tank it in the middle. Hallway would be my Default. :P


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 06, 2010, 03:52:36 PM
We got Festergut down after about 5 attempts in my 10-man group tonight. Had a poke at Rotface too for jokes.

Festergut is a really run fight; I really like the way there are effectively three phases that transition in a very natural way. As a healer this fight varies in an interesting way; the spore and blight mechanic is new and well done. The fight is very tightly tuned I'd say. We're a group in a mix of ToC10, ToGC10 and ToC25 bits and badge gear and we only had about 13s spare on the timer. This was with our Bear tank going cat once he had the +80% damage stack and me popping heroism at the same time; we did run with three healers though. You need 33K raid DPS to beat this, which isn't impossible, but isn't a walk in the park either.

Precious and Stinky were fun too, but it would be nice if they dropped a badge, or something.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 06, 2010, 04:02:04 PM
We got to engage Festergut once last night, because several folks kept going AFK before bosses (pissing the RL right off) and two wipes on the lagboat.  Anyone else have the horrible, crushing lag problem that suddenly resolves itself at around 15% left on the enemy ship?

I got an awesome trinket off of Saurfang, though. Deathbringer's Will (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50362)  Much fun was had with procs that are of questionable use.

Not sure how Festergut is going to go for us.  We seem streaky on our DPS, depending on how much attention certain mages are paying that night. (Guess who was afking randomly on us)  I keep wondering why they don't boot the flaky ones to the curb, really.

Oh, and screw entrance farming for rep.. Those Geists right before Precious respawn damn quick and give 16 rep each, plus 2 rep for the zombies the dogs spawn.  Awesome.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on January 06, 2010, 04:21:30 PM
People need to learn to pee before the damn raid.  :angryfist:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 06, 2010, 04:25:52 PM
Oh, and screw entrance farming for rep.. Those Geists right before Precious respawn damn quick and give 16 rep each, plus 2 rep for the zombies the dogs spawn.  Awesome.

It did cross my mind that you could seemingly just stay in combat with previous ad infinitum to farm rep. Frankly though it hardly seems worth the effort. Everyone will be Exalted within a month or so anyway.

The geist packs were hilarious fun.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 06, 2010, 04:29:55 PM
Well that's been my opinion of rep farming, yes.  I'm still 2k from revered while others have been sitting at exalted since a week and a half ago.  I don't pretend to understand must-have-it-now personalities, I just know what to use to tickle their reflex.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 06, 2010, 04:37:21 PM
Our only problem with Rotface is that the slimes that spawn absolutely will not respond to our off-tank in any way until more than one spawns and they merge (we aren't sure if it is intended or bugged or the tank was just using the wrong skill to grab it or what).  Then you have to dump the slimes at the one big one continuously otherwise you get slimes that can't really be controlled (they were ONLY going after who spawned them, regardless of tank efforts to get them off).  We still have some people who are not great players unless DBM is yelling at them specifically to go do X or Y and since DBM wasn't updated for these fights yet, that was a problem (stand in the spray?  okay!).  And the one brand new healer we were breaking in who didn't understand why he shouldn't insta-cleanse the disease debuff (he got it on the 3rd try) and insisted on healing himself through Rotface's slime spray when he could just run away from it.

And that giant slime hits like a freight train and pretty much destroys our OT if it gets too close.  More practice and we'll likely get it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 06, 2010, 04:50:41 PM
From what I've read the little ones have a fixate set on their first target. That person has to kite them into another small one to make a big one before you can hand off to the OT. I believe that's not a bug.

EDIT: And they spawn faster as time goes by, which is basically a soft enrage on him - when you get too many slimes, game over. Blow cooldowns from the start, in other words.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 06, 2010, 04:55:46 PM
EDIT: And they spawn faster as time goes by, which is basically a soft enrage on him - when you get too many slimes, game over. Blow cooldowns from the start, in other words.
Once the big one hits 5 total slimes absorbed, they blow up and the process starts over again (assuming people are running their slime over to the big one properly, naturally ;-) ).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on January 06, 2010, 09:39:38 PM
A night of heart-breaking 5% wipes on festergut-25.  Totally doable for our guild (to absolutely everyone's shock), but I still think it's going to get moderately nerfed sooner rather than later.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 06, 2010, 09:42:17 PM
Putricide...destroyer of pugs.

Got him after on 8th attempt in 10man while my guilds other group couldn't and they were technically the better geared one.  Trying on 25 as I post but it's looking really rough. I don't see pugs ever getting this guy without a nerf.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 07, 2010, 03:49:17 AM
Once the big one hits 5 total slimes absorbed, they blow up and the process starts over again (assuming people are running their slime over to the big one properly, naturally ;-) ).

The explosion is a bit buggy, at least in my run.  Both a rogue and I saw the exploding drops hit hte ground and go 'ka-blooey'  We then ran in to begin dpsing again, and died 2 secs later to explosion damage.  Wtf.

The "running over to the offtank WHEN you get injected, not after the slime spawns" thing is also apparently beyond the comprehension of our ranged DPS.  To be fair, a few melee are guilty as well, since the tank wound-up consecrating a couple onto him throughout the night. However. but every single attempt saw one ranged standing there until it spawned, then running it through the healers or the offtank's healer, killing or majorly injuring them.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 07, 2010, 06:35:22 AM
The explosion is a bit buggy, at least in my run.  Both a rogue and I saw the exploding drops hit hte ground and go 'ka-blooey'  We then ran in to begin dpsing again, and died 2 secs later to explosion damage.  Wtf.
Yes.  From what I gather it is like a missile explosion (similar to the faceless ones in Old Kingdom) that starts to fire (after the explosion) and then hits some time afterward.  Supposedly it won't home in on anyone except the off-tank, but in our experience it did anyways, which made it a complete bitch to heal through or deal with.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 07, 2010, 08:35:13 AM
A night of heart-breaking 5% wipes on festergut-25.  Totally doable for our guild (to absolutely everyone's shock), but I still think it's going to get moderately nerfed sooner rather than later.

To reiterate (Hi Mode!) we're to the point where replacing two low DPS, or one healer, will get the job done.  Our best effort got him to 2.5 million.  Our top DPS (a rogue, of course, of course) did 2.9 million.  I think (no logs as of yet) our bottom four dps may have done 2.9 million combined.  Replace two of them with DPS that can produce 2.0 million over the course of the fight, or hell, three of them with people who can do 1.5 million, and it's a done deal.  Now where to find them... back to recruiting and more benching.   :oh_i_see:  Better raid stacking would probably help as well, but again, more recruiting and benching, plus bring the class not the player, which supposedly runs against Blizzard's philosophy.

The good news is all the practice we put in on 25 paid off on 10.  We'd have oneshot the fight, but the first tank grabbed him back before his debuff fell off, he blew up at 10 stacks, and that was that.  Second try went flawlessly.  Talk about doing it wrong though.  You're supposed to practice in 10s for the srs bznz 25s!   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on January 10, 2010, 08:58:46 AM
We got Festergut-10, barely. Rotface we got to ~45% a few times before we called it for the night. We didn't really have our DPS A-Team to be honest and the healing wasn't that great. Also the small oozes were buggy as fuck and kept running towards the people who cleansed the disease rather than the person who had the disease.

Festergut needs a bit of tank-damage nerfing and Rotface needs to just work better.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 10, 2010, 10:01:38 AM
Festergut needs a bit of tank-damage nerfing and Rotface needs to just work better.
I healed Festergut on my druid last night in 10-m and it is a VERY tightly tuned fight.  We could get him to 700-800k out of 9800k several times and he enraged, which is quite frustrating, even with bloodlust.  Our top DPS was doing 5800 and the remainders were in the high 4ks with a shadowpriest that kept tossing the occasional heal (we told him to be a good DPSer and sit back and let the healers do their job and yell at them when they failed ;-) ) who was giving us 3.5k.  To comfortably have that fight, every DPS needs to do 5k+ and to just barely get there, 4500 or so.  Our healing numbers showed all 3 of us were healing in the 4k HPS range the entire fight and when the 3rd spore came out it required all 3 of us to keep the tank alive spamming everything we had.  This is a fight where DPS is a major contributor as much as healing is, and everyone HAS to bring their A-game or they may as well not even bother coming.  One person not a good player or not raid aware and you've got nothing but wipes for your night.

Rotface most people on my server are not interested in working on because of how certain things just don't seem to work that well (which may be intended).  We worked on him and I am fairly confident if we had better healers we could take him down (we could get him to almost 50% consistently).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on January 10, 2010, 10:11:21 AM
If your DPS are doing anything under ~5.4k-ish you're not getting it done unless you try 2-healing it. He flopped over right on the enrage with everyone in my group pulling 5.7-6.2k. This was however with me (one of the tanks) and a DPS getting a battle res. The seconds lost on that could be added in so I imagine had everyone stayed up the whole fight and the druids didn't have to stop what they were doing to revive someone we'd have gotten him ~20 seconds off the enrage timer.

The tank damage is ridiculous. I had to start rotating CDs at 2 inhales and I'm in full 245 gear or better. Good fucking luck to strict 10-man only guilds that don't have TOGC on farm.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 10, 2010, 11:31:25 AM
I had to start rotating CDs at 2 inhales and I'm in full 245 gear or better. Good fucking luck to strict 10-man only guilds that don't have TOGC on farm.
Exactly.  Our run was mostly composed of alts from some more serious raid guilds, and everyone was doing pretty well (except that one shadowpriest).  We 1-shot everything else up to that and then worked on him for 2 hours.  It was good practice to see the fight mechanics when they work, but yeah, unless your guild is hardcore enough to have everything on farm and have done hard modes of the rest, good luck getting this one down.  Supposedly Blizzard likes the new content this way.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on January 10, 2010, 02:07:36 PM
Did you completely miss the part where the encounter corrects it's difficulty downwards after a number of resets?  This is not your time, you are not hardcore / geared enough.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on January 10, 2010, 03:17:05 PM
I had to start rotating CDs at 2 inhales and I'm in full 245 gear or better. Good fucking luck to strict 10-man only guilds that don't have TOGC on farm.
Exactly.  Our run was mostly composed of alts from some more serious raid guilds, and everyone was doing pretty well (except that one shadowpriest).  We 1-shot everything else up to that and then worked on him for 2 hours.  It was good practice to see the fight mechanics when they work, but yeah, unless your guild is hardcore enough to have everything on farm and have done hard modes of the rest, good luck getting this one down.  Supposedly Blizzard likes the new content this way.

Their raiding policy is to set the bar ridiculously high for people that can only function is they completed heroics in the past patch, and then they tune it back down after a couple weeks. That's part of the reason why I didn't even bring my 25 group into the place until last week.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 10, 2010, 03:30:30 PM
My guild is far from hardcore, and I'd say Festergut is tuned about right for us. It is definitely a step up in the sense that this isn't a fight you can just cheese with any raid comp; but you can make it a lot easier for yourself.

Having only three people at range helps, as it cuts down DPS time lost to movement. We had out holy paladin sat under the boss for the whole which really helped him, and made the 3rd inhale easier. Surviving the inhale damage is an exercise in healer and tank coordination. The healers need to be on the ball to make effective transitions from raid to tank healing, and ideally you want some form of external cooldown (lay on hands, guardian spirit, pain supression, divine sacrifice etc). Having tanks pop an indestructible potion will also help. The main problem we found was that if the tank wasn't being kept at 100% HP during the second inhale, and went into the third inhale with partial health, they got gibbed. This is an issue with healers failing to transition though, once we got this (e.g. the holy priest is just raidi healing at the start, but starts rolling renews on the tank prior to the third inhale) it gets smoother. Tanks should also save trinket cooldowns for the third inhale.

I don't see the point in two-healing this. If your DPS is so bad that you need to bring 6 of them, then there's no way your healers are going to be good enough to do this as just two. Arranging your tanks such that whoever can DPS best out of the two tanks first, and then continues to DPS with the 80%+dmg buff up will help you too.

It is a ferocious gear-check, but it's definitely within reach of people in 232-245 gear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on January 11, 2010, 03:40:03 AM
I'd love to see a warrior tank in full 232 with maybe 1-2 pieces of 245 gear (ring, then helm or shoulders) survive a 3 inhale Festergut even with CDs up.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 11, 2010, 04:06:11 AM
My warrior tank logged off in DPS gear, but here's the Druid who MT'd the fight for one of the 3rd inhale phases.

Druid (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Chazzyx)

I'm not saying this fight is tuned around people in just 232 gear; but the only people who are just in 232 gear are newly-dinged 80s and old alts. Most people will probably have picked up 245, 251 and 264 gear from the first four bosses, ToGC10 and ToC25, Onyxia, VoA and badges well before they get to Festergut.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 11, 2010, 08:34:52 AM
I'd love to see a warrior tank in full 232 with maybe 1-2 pieces of 245 gear (ring, then helm or shoulders) survive a 3 inhale Festergut even with CDs up.

Does this (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=The+Venture+Co&n=Borris) count?  This was our second tank on a successful Festergut 10 fight.

We downed Rotface in 10 man as well, he is, to say the least, a very very annoying fight.  The key is to have people avoid the avoidable damage, or your healers will never ever manage to keep up.  Also, save bloodlust for the last 30% or so, if you have one.  We did not, which made us very sad.

Putricide 10 is an interesting fight, although I do not expect we'll down him this week.  Only 5 wipes left!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Khaldun on January 11, 2010, 08:37:28 AM
Rotface-10 did seem buggy to me on my first shot at it. Lots of weird behavior from the small slimes that doesn't accord with the supposed set-up.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Evildrider on January 11, 2010, 08:48:37 AM
The rotface-10 fight seems buggy.  The slimes would spawn and sometimes just do whatever they wanted instead of just chasing whoever it was on.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 11, 2010, 11:54:25 AM
My warrior tank logged off in DPS gear, but here's the Druid who MT'd the fight for one of the 3rd inhale phases.

[url-http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Chazzyx]Druid[/url]

I'm not saying this fight is tuned around people in just 232 gear; but the only people who are just in 232 gear are newly-dinged 80s and old alts. Most people will probably have picked up 245, 251 and 264 gear from the first four bosses, ToGC10 and ToC25, Onyxia, VoA and badges well before they get to Festergut.

I don't expect to see any ToGC gear, or anything from 25 man anything in our lineup before we get to him. I sort of suspect that is going to be true of a lot of 10-only raiders. On the other hand by the time we do get to him, the ongoing nerf aura will be ramped up quite a bit I'm sure.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on January 11, 2010, 01:30:44 PM
The rotface-10 fight seems buggy.  The slimes would spawn and sometimes just do whatever they wanted instead of just chasing whoever it was on.

I can attest to the Small Oozes doing strange things at times.  I don't really think that's why my group wiped on him so many damn times yesterday, but it didn't help.  We could just never get south of 1mil health without everything going tits up.

Festergut was a decent amount of fun though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 11, 2010, 05:09:27 PM
We had less problem with the Small oozes being buggy than we did explaining to the Healers and DPSers that aggro dumping is a BAD IDEA.  "Just kite the damn things to the big slime and stop killing everyone else."

I suspect you might find that someone's hitting a fade, iceblock or feign death somewhere.   Or kiting it through a pally tanks consecrate and then doing the same.   

It also appears to take some time for people to understand they need to run between the OT and the Giant Slime he's kiting around.. so that the giant slime eats it.  Ditto on the whole "don't run behind the giant slime, because hte next person will do that as well and then you'll have an untanked giant that will, once again, kill us all."

Festergut was a blast in 25.  Never pushed my DPS so hard before that fight.  Felt good to get him down, even if a few 4% 3% and 10k health remaining wipes.  (After the 10k wipe, one of the pallies said "goddamnit I should have bubbled and sneezed on him!")

9 Attempts on Putricide left.  Fucking complex fight, we took the night off to go watch vids & learn strats.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on January 11, 2010, 08:20:18 PM
I'm sure there was a bit of that and after going back again tonight the random "hey where did this ooze come from" was mostly gone.

Also, Rotface-10: DPS fixes everything.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 11, 2010, 09:08:23 PM
Also, Rotface-10: DPS fixes everything.
Yes.  My 3rd tier alt got this tonight (the one that hasn't done the first part of ICC yet...).  On the 2nd try.  It was neat.  But the DPS was stellar.  I find that I get to excel at raid healing to make that fight not so painful for the first 1/3 of it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 15, 2010, 09:39:51 AM
Festergut and Rotface both downed in 25 this week.  Fester is way less forgiving, with the hardest enrage I recall seeing (maybe something in Sunwell?  Brutallus?  was as bad.)  Rotface has a lot of avoidable damage.

Fester we got down by execution, moonkin aura, and dropping a healer.  Five healing that was... interesting.   :heartbreak:

Rotface is a much better fight from a healing standpoint, so long as people avoid the avoidable damage.  We had to use multiple kiters to get it down, two tanks, and I think a couple of mages were also throwing slows on slimes for the last 30% or so.  Essentially we brute forced Rotface til he fell down.

You can't brute force Fester.  Either you have the dps, or you just don't.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on January 15, 2010, 11:00:15 AM
Last week in 25m we got to Festergut's enrage once.  :oh_i_see: Our OT didn't like calling out before he was taunting, so keep dying pretty much instantly since healers didn't know to heal him. Plus, we had all kinds of problems getting people to stack up right with the spores; we were aiming for 2 groups at range (one left, one right) and 1 in melee, but everyone who got the spores kept running to the right, even if there was already a spore there. It was a PUG, and it was late, so after 4 or 5 wipes people started bailing and we called it.

This week on 10m we got in one half hearted attempt on him before one of our top dps DC'd and didn't come back. PUG, late, etc.

Still haven't seen Rotface yet.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 15, 2010, 03:25:32 PM
Fester feels really good when you finally down him.  It seems easier after the first time, too, since we finally got him Monday last week and finished him off Wednesday this week.  Once your individual DPS figure out how to absolute maxdps, it's just downhill from there.

Putricide sucks, however. Such a high level of DPS needed to kill off those slimes, PLUS the movement = not a lot of time on the boss.  Since my guild never got past Faction Champs in 25 TOGC I figure we're just not meant to kill him until we gear up more on the earlier bosses.

Rotface 10 is STILL a lot harder than 25, even with the HP nerfs.  The big slimes seem buggy and wouldn't stick on me as OT.. and you're relying an awful lot on your DPS to know where to run to in order to drop the little ones off.  One person goes down and it just goes to hell.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 15, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
Fester feels really good when you finally down him.  It seems easier after the first time, too, since we finally got him Monday last week and finished him off Wednesday this week.  Once your individual DPS figure out how to absolute maxdps, it's just downhill from there.
Very true.  My druid got him on the 4th try this week.  4k HPS for the win.  Definitely a "you got the DPS to do it or you shouldn't even try."  My mage got him to 270k health when he enraged, and that was with our top DPS rogue dying when the boss had 70% health left.  We went for it for practice, but with 9 people it's pretty much not going to happen.  The DPS numbers were awesomely stellar though.  Once everyone gets it together, that's a pretty "easy" fight.  Most of our problems have been logistics (one or two not getting innoculated, tank forgot to taunt, healers dropped the ball) more than anything else.

Rotface on 10-m we got to 18% twice.  The biggest problem we had is the sheer amount of healing and coordination needed once the injections start coming every 10 seconds or so.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 15, 2010, 04:26:31 PM
The inoculation thing is, thankfully, not a problem for a several high-output classes.  DKs can AMS, Pallies can Bubble and Mages can Ice Block.  I seem to recall the raid lead droning on about what other classes should do as well, but since I'd found AMS worked the first week I was only half-listening.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 21, 2010, 08:41:54 AM
Crimson Hall trash is completely  :awesome_for_real:, I think we spent about as much time working on the trash as we did Blood Princes.  The closest analog is Vezax trash, bring your CCers.  And by "CCers", I mean "priests who can shackle, plus hunters that can trap, no other CC need apply".

Blood Princes fight is completely insane the first few times you try it.  There is so much going on, and I had absolutely no hope of keeping track of it.

After a number of tries with a warlock tank for the caster boss, we gave up and used a real live tank instead.  He ended up tanking two of the bosses at the end, which astoundingly didn't prove to be terribly troublesome.

As is typical with the guild, we downed them last pull of the night, in a chaotic fight that ended up with multiple BRs and ankhs, plus nearly 1/3 of the raid dead by the time the bosses died.

Overall, my irritated impression is this is a fight that will be trivialized by having DBM yelling at you.  Even without DBM quite working right (it manfully tried, but wasn't correctly calling out everything) it wasn't too hard to have someone simply yell out "EMPOWERED VORTEX", which I think is really the only thing that has a serious impact on the raid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 21, 2010, 10:52:07 AM
I didn't notice anything big with the trash.  I heard the tacticians can sap/ cheapshot while engaged but once that was worked-around things went great.  The first room's pull was the usual AOE-fest and the healers complained about having to heal so much, but there weren't many deaths. 

We didn't down the Princes, but sticking one or two guys on permanet bounce-ball duty turned out to be a must for us.  Our ranged DPS has always suffered from tunnel vision and it killed us handily the first few attempts.  Once oneo f those things hits the ground EVERYONE is knocked-back and takes massive damage.. which strans the healers even more.  Bad scene.

Melee was also suffering from "can't run fast enough."  I was watching his bar obsessively and never seemed to be out of range of at least 1 or 2 other melees.  A few never ran out at all apparently and caused wipes a few times. (I hope we're not bringing them back.)

I agree with you on the DBM thing.  I've wondered if there's a way you can create announce .wavs or .mp3s instead of the damn *Dong* without making the download & install some monstrous size.   Some fights (like this) are so busy you hear a dong every 2-3 seconds, which isn't useful at all.  Having it announce "Inhale"  "Nether Vortex Spawned" "Melee Run OUT" etc would be so much nicer.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 21, 2010, 10:58:45 AM
There's an addon called SharedMedia that lets you add custom sounds to any addon that uses a backend addon called LibSharedMedia - I used it to make my Omen "you're pulling threat" sound the Big Bad Wolf from Karazhan yelling RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL, but if DBM (or Bigwigs) uses LibSharedMedia you could use it to add custom sounds. I'm not sure how granular you can get on changing the alert sounds for those mods, but I think with some effort it could probably be done.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 21, 2010, 11:30:09 AM
One or two of those trash SHADOWSTEPS.  The hunters were actually kind of amused by it, they were using frost arrow to try to lay down traps for the mobs, only to watch some (all?) of them simply warp to the raid.

On one pull, one of them shadowstepped to me, three shot me, and then went methodically after the rest of the healers.
 :awesome_for_real:

The critical things, from what I could tell, are keeping the kinetic bombs up in the air, avoiding vortexes, and putting someone who can manage aggro on a boss, and shadow nucleuses (or whatever they are) on the caster guy.  The fire orbs never really seemed to be a problem, probably because the rest of the "FIRE BAD" is cured by excessive healing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on January 21, 2010, 04:11:50 PM
Crimson Hall trash is completely  :awesome_for_real:, I think we spent about as much time working on the trash as we did Blood Princes.  The closest analog is Vezax trash, bring your CCers.  And by "CCers", I mean "priests who can shackle, plus hunters that can trap, no other CC need apply".

Fears work on the elves, at least in 10-man.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 22, 2010, 06:30:37 AM
Overall, my irritated impression is this is a fight that will be trivialized by having DBM yelling at you.  Even without DBM quite working right (it manfully tried, but wasn't correctly calling out everything) it wasn't too hard to have someone simply yell out "EMPOWERED VORTEX", which I think is really the only thing that has a serious impact on the raid.
Yeah, this fight is pretty crazy.  We decided to give it a try a few times last night and while we made progress every time, there is definitely a lot "watch out!" going on.  Once we work out the vortexes, we'll have it since that was the *only* thing that was killing people.

The trash is honestly pretty easy as long as you prioritize kills, focus the DPS, have a dispel and poison cleanse, and make sure you watch whoever gets the rend debuff even after combat, since it is annoyingly long and will kill someone if you aren't watching 30s after combat is over.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on January 22, 2010, 08:30:51 AM
Fearing is inadvisable.  (Said the paladin who feared a mob, watched it run for help... and find it.   :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on January 22, 2010, 02:39:50 PM
Blood Queen or whatever looks to be a fun fight.  I left after the second wipe though because I was zzz at the keyboard every few mins.   The early difficulty was getting folks to recognize "hey there's a lazerbeam from my head.. I should run to the other 2 people with it."  Additionally, raid healing seems to have been something of a bitch.

Tips my guild learned last night.
Quote
**When you're a Vampire, to bite someone else you must be less than 1 yrd from them!

**The first air phase (and AoE Fear) comes right as the 2nd group of Vampires need to find someone else to bite.  Maybe the hotfix will help with this... or maybe we can adjust the timing ourselves.

**Healing is INSANE!!  Major mana issues, healers will be OOM before the fight ends

**If any Vampires die at any time (or get MC'd), its a wipe.

**Blood Mirror goes to whomever is closest to the MT.  OT needs to run in with MT, melee must remain behind OT.  Melee should attack from max range *behind the boss*.  

IIRC The air phase thing is important because you have to spread-out at that phase.  She casts 'blood bolt' which does big damage if you're within 6 yards of another player.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 22, 2010, 04:52:32 PM
Fearing is inadvisable.  (Said the paladin who feared a mob, watched it run for help... and find it.   :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:)

Pulling with shackle and then running to break line of sight while mashing fade woked well for me.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on January 25, 2010, 07:48:27 AM
We tried that fight last night for 2 wipes.  Yeah, as one of the healers I have to agree...healing is insane.

On the second try, I just stood in one spot spamming large heals on the 3 tanks.  I was a Disc Priest (great for all the fights leading up to this one,) so getting big numbers for heals is not my "thang" but still topped the chart at 3200+ healing.  Still it wasn't enough because there is such a requirement to move around and not stand in one spot.

This one smacks of getting a retuning very soon.  Even with godly gear on, I don't see this being possible at the moment.  Either that or we are missing some element of the strat that stops our tanks from dropping half their health every 2 seconds right from the first pull.  My shields didn't seem to have any effect whatsoever.  It was just about pure healing numbers.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on January 25, 2010, 07:49:59 AM
Fearing is inadvisable.  (Said the paladin who feared a mob, watched it run for help... and find it.   :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:)

Pulling with shackle and then running to break line of sight while mashing fade woked well for me.

Yes, I did this for our group and had no issues at all.  The boss fight though?  Impossible.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on January 25, 2010, 04:32:01 PM
3.3.2 Patch notes...as taken from the WoW-Korea site and translated by WoW.com : http://www.wow.com/2010/01/25/patch-3-3-2-patch-notes-on-official-korean-wow-site/

Quote
Disclaimer: Translation is hard! Some of these notes, especially more complex ones, may be slightly off. We'll post the official English notes when they're posted as well.

Dungeons and Raids

Icecrown Citadel

* The Frostwing Halls, the last stronghold of the Lich King and the Scourge, has been added, but the Ashen Verdict must break down the door first. (Does this mean we have to wait some additional time to fight Arthas?)

Halls of Stone

* Brann Bronzebeard has been working out, so he'll run faster during the escort event.

Forge of Souls

* Devourer of Souls will cast Mirrored Soul less often.
* Trash mob Spell Reflect abilities have been changed. It now has a casting time, and will proc only twice at a rate of 75% instead of 100%.


Nexus

* Anomalus will create rifts only once.

Ahn'Kahet: Old Kingdom

* Elder Nadox's Ahn'kahar Guardian will only spawn once.
* Jedoga Shadowseeker will initiate her volunteer phase only once.
* Some trash packs between Nadox and Jedoga have been reduced/removed.

Pit of Saron

* Dead players are now able to re-enter the instance when the Ick/Krick and Forgemaster Garfrost encounters are active.

Utgarde Pinnacle

* Players can bring down Skadi's drake using only three harpoons, down from five.
* Svala Sorrowgrave only casts Ritual of the Sword once, down from thrice.

Vault of Archavon

* Toravon the Ice Watcher has been added to the dungeon! He awaits your challenge on 10- and 25-player difficulties.

Violet Hold

* Portals will open faster after Portal Guardians are killed.

Arena and Battlegrounds

Arena

* Arena Season 8 has started and new rewards are available!

Druid

Balance

* Earth and Moon: Now increases spell damage by 2/4/6% for the druid, Up from 1/2/3%.

Shaman

Elemental

* Shamanism: Now increases your Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning spell damage by 4/8/12/16/20% (up from 3/6/9/12/15%) and your Lava Burst spell damage by 5/10/15/20/25% (up from 4/8/12/16/20%).

Warlock

Affliction

* Shadow Embrace: Now stacks 3 times. Healing reduction effect reduced to 2/4/8/10% (down from 3/6/9/12/15%).

Demonology

* Demonic Pact: This talent now increases your spell damage by 2/4/6/8/10% (up from 1/2/3/4/5%). The benefit to party/raid members remains unchanged.

Destruction

* Conflagrate: Periodic Spell damage increased to 40% (Up from 20%)
* Empowered Imp: Damage done by imp increased to 10/20/30% (Up from 5/10/15%)
* Improved Shadow Bolt: Now increases Shadow Bolt damage 2/4/6/8/10% (Up from 1/2/3/4/5%)

Warrior

Protection

* Concussion Blow: Damage decreased by 50%. Threat level remains unchanged.
* Devastate: Damage increased by 20%.
* Shield Slam: Damage modifier from block value decreased, and scales worse at low block value levels. Players in high-end gear shouldn't notice the change. In addition, threat generated by Shield Slam has been increased by 30%.
* Warbringer: Now only affects Intervene.


UI and Interface

* Dungeon Finder Party Leader role renamed (don't know to what yet).

Item

* The Ashen Verdict now offers a Strength-based ring for classes that benefit from it.
* Tier 10 Elemental Shaman set bonus: Redesigned. Whenever Lava burst successfully damages the target, it increases the duration of Flame Shock by 6 sec.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 25, 2010, 04:33:19 PM
I see elemental shamans got their gear scaling fix for this tier.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on January 25, 2010, 04:38:05 PM
I wish they'd improve the slimes on Rotface. Getting them to merge is an exercise in frustration.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on January 25, 2010, 04:52:59 PM
Bah.  So much for being lazy with Warbringer.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on January 25, 2010, 04:53:47 PM
The boss fight though?  Impossible.
Several of the big guilds on my server have gotten the Blood Princes down, but I am not sure if any of them have actually gotten the Queen down.  Lots of "OMG this is unpossible!" comments from people who I asked.

I wish they'd improve the slimes on Rotface. Getting them to merge is an exercise in frustration.
Yes.  We got him to 290k and we wiped.  The entire boss fight is an exercise in frustration, because if one person doesn't watch and dies, it's a wipe.  While it's nice that it isn't trivial, definitely bring your raid awareness for all 10 or 25 people or bring a big budget for repairs.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on January 25, 2010, 05:09:44 PM
Bah.  So much for being lazy with Warbringer.

Don't buy the wording in the patch notes, we'll still be able to charge and intercept in combat/defensive stance, they just won't remove snares; only intervene will remove snares. That was the announced change before these patch notes (which are only Google translated.)

EDIT: blue confirmation

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748817766&pageNo=1&sid=1#12


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 02, 2010, 03:25:33 PM
The New Arena Season has begun and with it, new PvP gear.


Furious Set Pieces for honor

Relentless Off-Set Pieces for honor

Wrathful Off-Set pieces for honor, only half require ratings. (this is new, possibly a bug)

Relentless Set Pieces for Arena Points plus Honor, no rating requirements. (this is new, also possibly a bug)

Wrathful Set Pieces for Arena Points plus Honor, Full Rating Reqs

Weapons all have a minimum rating of 1800+ still, no honor weapons.


I have no idea if the lack of rating requirements is Blizzard realizing the gear gap between the top tier and noob gear is just too massive and they are letting people get more with less, or if it's just someone forgetting to carry the one in the database. If it is a intended change, then you could theoretically have a full Relentless Set+Offset via doing nothing more then battlegrounds and the daily PvP BG quest... in 6 months at least. If you make yourself a little shitty arena point farm team you could have a full relentless set in a quarter of the time I imagine. You would only be 1 tier behind via this route as well, really a little less if you collect the few Wrathful pieces you have access too as well though the Weapon will still be a major hurdle for 90% of the population.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 02, 2010, 03:28:21 PM
Non-reported change:  The Lich King has an AE that will (probably) kill you if you attempt the "saunter after the boss" tactic in HHoR.   :awesome_for_real:

Also, from what I've read, a blue announced basically what you posted, so I think it's intended.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on February 02, 2010, 03:29:53 PM
Makes sense to to couple the PvE gear reboot with a PvP one.  Hopefully this isn't a bug, especially seeing it's the last season of the expansion.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 02, 2010, 03:32:05 PM
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/13/22749002061-wrathful-non-set-pvp-items-no-arena-rating.html

-edit- Better link

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748781916&sid=1

Quote
Arena Season 8 has now officially begun, and players can immediately begin competing for the new Wrathful Gladiator PvP item sets. We have reset all Arena team ratings, Arena points, and personal ratings though players retain their honor points and matchmaking rating going into the season.

Here is a list of some PvP items that will be available in Arena Season 8 and their expected rating requirements:

No Rating Required:

Furious Chest
Furious Legs
Furious Gloves
Furious Helm
Furious Shoulders
Relentless Bracer
Relentless Belt
Relentless Boots
Relentless Neck
Relentless Ring
Relentless Cape
Relentless Trinket
Relentless Gloves
Relentless Legs
Relentless Chest
Relentless Helm
Relentless Shoulders
Wrathful Bracer
Wrathful Trinket
Wrathful Cape
Wrathful Neck
Wrathful Ring

Rating Required:
700+: Relentless Relics
1300+: Wrathful Belt (honor)
1400+: Wrathful Boots (honor)
1400+: Wrathful Gloves
1500+: Wrathful Legs
1600+: Wrathful Chest
1700+: Wrathful Wands/Relics/etc
1800+: Wrathful Weapon - lvl264
1950+: Wrathful Helm
2000+: Wrathful Shoulders
2200+: Wrathful Weapon - lvl277
2300+: Wrathful Tabard


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 02, 2010, 03:54:09 PM
I can't get enthusiastic about arena.  Not unless they add more specs.

I'm thinking six might be enough.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 02, 2010, 04:55:31 PM
PVP gear has been getting uglier and uglier as the expansion has progressed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 02, 2010, 05:16:37 PM
New VoA boss is cake in 10-m, and complete and utter fail in 25-m if your ranged DPS decide they are special snowflakes and don't need to DPS down the orbs or move away from them.  It took 3 groups to get it right and it was only a guild run that did it.  People actually listened and killed the orbs before they wiped the raid!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on February 02, 2010, 05:34:17 PM
I have no idea if the lack of rating requirements is Blizzard realizing the gear gap between the top tier and noob gear is just too massive and they are letting people get more with less, or if it's just someone forgetting to carry the one in the database.
BGs on most battlegroups are dead with only 1-2 of any BG being up (and sometimes no instances of AV/SOTA/IOC at all), so they're trying to incentivize people in by dangling gear ever-closer to the ground.  Not going to work on me though!  I can make a competitive amount of honor/hour from running heroics.

If this keeps up, Blizzard's going to seriously reconsider implementing rated BGs.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 02, 2010, 05:54:59 PM
PVP gear has been getting uglier and uglier as the expansion has progressed.

I dunno, I think paladin, warrior and rogue gear has a cool and interesting progression. Priest and Shaman sets are loldire though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: JWIV on February 02, 2010, 07:01:58 PM
Forge of Souls

* Devourer of Souls will cast Mirrored Soul less often.

Not sure if the RNG got magically stuck or what not, but this shit seemed to proc more often, not less tonight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 02, 2010, 08:31:27 PM
3,350 Arena Points to get the full 5 piece Relentless.

25 Arena Points awarded for each Battle Ground Daily quest.

134 Days of Battle Ground Daily quests.


So assuming you never did any Arena and did the BG daily every day without fail, you are looking at just under four and a half months of dailies. 175 Arena Points a week.


I see a lot of throw away Arena Teams being formed again.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on February 02, 2010, 09:28:49 PM
You may be hearing reports that Saurfang is bugged/ broken because he builds up a ton of blood charges. Something like 3-5 per player hit now.  He's not bugged, it's an unannounced mechanics change.  In addition to the whole "priest shields don't block charges" change, it turns out ROTFH doesn't pump blood charges to him anymore.  Letting your marked players die hurts you now since he'll be marking a lot more people, so keep 'em up and heal through it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 02, 2010, 09:46:52 PM
He's not bugged, it's an unannounced mechanics change.
Ouch.  Our 25-m group got him to 6% twice before losing it.  We normally got him down with only 3 marks up.  We had 7 or more by the end.  It was close, but it sure was annoying.

I'm hoping our 7k+ DPS group can down him in 10-m.  If they intentionally made him harder so that you can't easily clear him, despite having cleared the bosses further on in, I call shenanigans on that.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 03, 2010, 12:03:05 AM
Yeah... I can't believe they would have gone and made Saurfang harder like that.  We still took him down, but it was a near thing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on February 03, 2010, 03:25:47 AM
Yeah, someone in our raid was searching the forums between wipes/ resets and discovered a post where someone mentioned the ROTFH change.  We tested it the next attempt and discovered, sure enough it was true.  Fight was much smoother that way, IMO, just a lot more intense on the healers.. who had complained they got bored doing it the other way.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 03, 2010, 03:54:06 AM
Yeah, someone in our raid was searching the forums between wipes/ resets and discovered a post where someone mentioned the ROTFH change.  We tested it the next attempt and discovered, sure enough it was true.  Fight was much smoother that way, IMO, just a lot more intense on the healers.. who had complained they got bored doing it the other way.

Do you mean Mark of the Fallen Champion?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on February 03, 2010, 05:39:47 AM
This has to be the worst idea ever.  Give the highest ranked pvp players the best gear.  If it were arena only gear it would make sense.  Instead they get an even larger advantage (gear + their ability and class knowledge) in WG and the BG's.  I would think that Arena play would be the place to gain titles and achievements, not an unneeded pvp bonus. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 03, 2010, 06:13:59 AM
They're letting you buildup the gear that's one step below.

I don't see anything wrong with it.  PVP sucks in WOW anyway.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on February 03, 2010, 06:23:57 AM
Anomalus went nearly twice as fast in H Nexus last night.

Also, Against the Legion (http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Against_the_Legion) is fixed now (broken in 3.3.0), if you were stuck there before.

This might be the wrong place for it, but has anyone else noticed increased lag in the jousting the last couple of weeks?  I had the timing pretty much memorized prior to that (charge-turn-shield breaker), but since then it's taking up to 5 seconds to see shield status updates if there are any other players on the field at the same time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on February 03, 2010, 07:47:40 AM
This might be the wrong place for it, but has anyone else noticed increased lag in the jousting the last couple of weeks?  I had the timing pretty much memorized prior to that (charge-turn-shield breaker), but since then it's taking up to 5 seconds to see shield status updates if there are any other players on the field at the same time.

I think jousting is just especially sensitive to ordinary lag. There were a few times when I just skipped the daily because it was unplayable. Last few days have been a little bit weird but doable.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on February 03, 2010, 09:31:31 AM
Yeah, I hate vehicles, but since I play from Eastern Europe, my 700-800 ping pushes it straight into  :why_so_serious: territory.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 03, 2010, 10:48:08 AM
Saurfang is a lot harder now but it was deserved. He was already a joke in 10 and 25m where in 10 if you got even a single mark you were doing poorly and 25m 2 marks was about that max for most guilds.  For a boss that drops the first two tier tokens and is the end boss for the first 'wing' I can see him being a faceroll as unacceptable.  Sure it screws people over on festergut/rotface and maybe blood princes but the imp saurfang is no more difficult than blood queen or putricide so if you can beat those two you'll still beat saurfang.  The fight is still incredibly simple from a strat point of view.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 03, 2010, 11:55:24 AM
Improved Saurfang is still easier than Fester.  We four healed it on 25 (healer DCed as someone facepulled) and we only had two marks die.  Next time he'll be easier.

One thing that's being reported is that absorbs now grant him extra blood power.  If true, that's really nifty, turning the encounter from "disc priest makes the fight go a lot easier" to "don't bring a disc priest, at all".   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 03, 2010, 11:59:48 AM
And no sacred shields I guess too... and the val'anyr bubble becomes bad I guess too?

That seems like a poorly thought out change if it is deliberate, maybe that's a bug and it is just accidentally double dipping somehow.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on February 03, 2010, 12:39:06 PM
If the damange avoidance change is true, it just means they truly want that fight to be purely about a dps and heal power check.  It will also kill my disc priest now.  Half of his healing potential is in shields.  It is what the spec is all about...

I guess I can go along and swap to dps mode for the fight?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on February 03, 2010, 12:44:34 PM
According to a co-worker, there is a blue post stating that it's a bug and unintended.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 03, 2010, 01:05:20 PM
The only blue post I've seen linked so far is on the bug report forum, and it wasn't so much an acknowledgment of a bug as it was a "hi we read this".

As for disc, you could always swap to holy.   :awesome_for_real:

Really though, if this is intended, I feel bad for disc.  It was neat seeing the fight made easier by a good disc priest.  I recall one night where we wiped for over an hour, until our disc logged on.  I pretty much shouted "OH THANK GOD" and as it happened, one of our players just happened to have a disconnect that took him offline for the rest of the night.

Pretty much oneshot it with the disc in the raid.

It's also reported that Blood Nova is hitting melee, when it used to only target ranged.

On the flip side, Marked players don't grant him blood power anymore, and they take less damage.  So now it very much is more of a "can you keep lots of players who are taking damage at once" fight.  Except without the use of shields.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 03, 2010, 02:36:05 PM
I knew there was something wrong with Saurfang last night! His blood points were going through the roof, the shield bug explains it.

Speaking of bugged encounters, has anyone else had problems in HoR since the patch? Whenever we tried actually going in front of him (aka not doing the glitch) he cast Fury of Frostmourne at about the 2nd wave and one shot the whole group. Happened twice before we just glitched him and stayed far behind.  :uhrr:

Edit: The new glitch involves staying in the room rather than up on the little ledge.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 03, 2010, 02:42:49 PM
The change to Saurfang is annoying, but not game breaking on 10 at least. We went with our usual 6 DPS 2 healer (1 disc) setup and killed him with 2 marks up. It's a little rougher, but by now people should be more competent at killing blood beasts and doing flat out more DPS so it balances out a bit.

Finally killed Rotface, having everyone spread more and cleansing earler helps, since the oozes do less damage than the debuff. It's one of those fights where if it goes smooth it goes very smooth, but if it goes rotten it fails fast.

Also had the Frost Giant boss; if you get him make sure to huddle so eveyone is within 8m of someone else (preferably more), still 1 shot him with some brezzes and 4 dead at the end, hey ho 5 extra frost emblems. Had a try on Valthiria, the free EoF before her was nice, and the fight itself looks very doable. It's a really fun fight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on February 03, 2010, 03:33:29 PM
Yeah, someone in our raid was searching the forums between wipes/ resets and discovered a post where someone mentioned the ROTFH change.  We tested it the next attempt and discovered, sure enough it was true.  Fight was much smoother that way, IMO, just a lot more intense on the healers.. who had complained they got bored doing it the other way.

Do you mean Mark of the Fallen Champion?

Yes, that.  Something stuck it in my head as Rune of the Fallen Hero. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on February 04, 2010, 10:24:56 AM
Oh yeah, Ensidia just ate a 3 day suspension and got their achievements/loot rolled back for exploiting the Arthas encounter.

One of their lead raiders quit and wrote a hilarious letter, then cut/pasted an edited copy of Furor/Tigole/whatever's original EQ rant.

"FUCKIN NOOB SCRUBS AND BLIZZ WITH THEIR STUPID EASY CONTENT bLARGH CASUALS" *cheats to make an encounter easier*


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on February 04, 2010, 10:36:08 AM
Took our healers one attempt on saurfang to figure it out.  We were cheezing it before and letting fuckers die.  Probably a little more strain on the healers now, but as far as a dps perspective it's the same damn thing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on February 04, 2010, 11:57:14 AM
Man, that seems less "they sploited!" as much as "we were stupid and tried to reuse a damage type to trigger events that we forgot players could deal if they wanted to"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 04, 2010, 12:29:49 PM
Man, that seems less "they sploited!" as much as "we were stupid and tried to reuse a damage type to trigger events that we forgot players could deal if they wanted to"

Not really. The platforms were never supposed to come back up so damaging them more wouldn't work.  The only real issue is how dumb they were to NOT expect this result.  Even if their rogue was using siege bombs in good faith, the moment they saw the platforms coming back and the valkyrs being unable to pull people off the ledges they should have known it was a bug.  At that point the should have at least tried to get a gm to give them a go-ahead as they would well know that developers were watching their kill.

Really, how stupid are you, being one of the number one kills, going for world first arthas to not think everything you do is going to be under a microscope? Yes it was poor coding on blizzards part but that doesn't excuse blatantly exploiting a bug.  That's exactly what it is too, an exploit. Not necessarily the same as hacking or cheating but it's exploiting a bad game mechanic for gain. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 04, 2010, 01:06:21 PM
Poopsocking guild uses exploits early and often, news at 11?  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 04, 2010, 01:17:36 PM
If it hadn't been them, it would have been someone else I'm sure. I'm still staggered by the number of people who care though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 04, 2010, 01:19:38 PM
Actually, one of the usual "Close but no cigar" guilds figured out the same exploit and went "Well, we'd better not use this or we'll get banned".  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 04, 2010, 01:32:42 PM
It probably wasn't deliberate exploiting at least at first - very top end rogues pretty frequently use engineering bombs as part of their normal rotation these days.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 04, 2010, 02:57:15 PM
All they have to do is release the video of their kill and that would clearly show if it was just a rogue squeezing extra DPS or not.


I find it *very* hard to believe that they don't have a video or five of their world first Lich King kill.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 04, 2010, 03:01:27 PM
Yeah certainly seems like something you could discover and go 'oh HEY lets do that on purpose'. On the other hand it might not be obvious exactly what is causing it to bug out.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on February 04, 2010, 03:26:40 PM
It's pretty obvious if something bugs out.  They've always banned people for this.  They might have gotten away with it if it bugged and they stopped.  But short of that and you get banned, and it's always been that way.  Donno who these guys are, but you've got to know that if you're competing for firsts, you're going to be put under the microscope.  How they can be mad at a 72hr ban is beyond me.  I've seen entire guilds perma-banned for not much more (AQ wall hax).  I know they may not have known what was doing it, but you're supposed to put in a ticket.  But if you just power through an obviously bugged encounter and then accept the accolades, you've got to expect the hammer.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 04, 2010, 03:39:57 PM
It's pretty obvious if something bugs out. 

Sure, its obvious 'hey the floor is bugging out'. What may not be obvious is which one of the random things that 25 different people are doing is *causing* it to bug out, or if it is just a problem with the instance server or what. My thinking is given that Blizzard actually banned them they probably had some evidence that the guild knew what they were doing and they were doing it on purpose, but it isn't hard for me to imagine a situation where the players couldn't really tell what was causing the bug to happen.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on February 04, 2010, 03:51:22 PM
It's probably a safe bet that they did something ingame or which Warden would pick up which indicated an intent to bug the encounter.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on February 04, 2010, 03:57:54 PM
It's hard for me to imagine that they though a platform that was supposed to stay disappeared reappeared and people stopped falling to their deaths was an encounter working as intended.  They knew.  They just figured that they wouldn't get caught.  They did.

As far as them not knowing what caused it, sure I can imagine that.  I think they probably knew.  But it's possible they didn't.  It's still a ban if you gain loot through an exploit.  Always has been.  And it's sometimes been permanent.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 04, 2010, 03:59:33 PM
When it happens without intent and the people in question put in a bug report, my understanding is that it isn't a ban, they just remove the loot. Obviously some of those elements were missing this time, though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 04, 2010, 04:01:32 PM
Also this guild already killed the lich king in 10man prior to their 25kill.  They knew the mechanics and they knew something was wrong when a whole phase of the fight was nullified.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 04, 2010, 04:01:57 PM
From Kungen (Ensidia person):
Quote
But when the bug happened on one of our wipes then we noticed that the Val'kyrs dropped people off on the platform again. So when the bug would accur again there wasn't any reason for us to damage them since they would drop people on the platform again.

"Yeah, we knew it was a bug and yeah we knew it broke the encounter"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on February 04, 2010, 04:12:14 PM
When it happens without intent and the people in question put in a bug report, my understanding is that it isn't a ban, they just remove the loot. Obviously some of those elements were missing this time, though.

Oh yea, if they would have reported themselves, I doubt they would be banned right now.  But the thing is, I'm pretty sure the QA team reviews all first kills on new content.  So if they didn't report it they guaranteed themselves a ban.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 04, 2010, 04:28:52 PM
Also I bet just going


/yell "hey gm's this encounter looks bugged, should we keep going?"

would have yielded a reply cause you know they were being watched.  In fact I have 0 sympathy for the stupidity of them thinking they weren't.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 04, 2010, 06:42:55 PM
Havoc in the ultra-poopsock world. I love it. I wonder if the prince will have them beheaded.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 04, 2010, 07:06:55 PM
Orf wif 'ere 'eads! :heart:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lightstalker on February 04, 2010, 10:05:57 PM
Meh.  I have no sympathy for the "evil exploiters shouldn't have been evil, or exploiters," chorus.  Like demanding the river flow uphill, that.  Petulantly stamp your foot more, please. 

Siege damage was another cobbled-on feature to an engine that wasn't made for it, like Vehicles, the arena, or the stupid interface limits tracking Kinetic Bombs, etc. etc.  Obvious to the user or not; when you release with insufficient test coverage you deserve the shit sandwich consequences, not your customers.  The customers already got to deal with your first offering of sandwiches, your product, the double dose is a little insulting.  These encounters are designed to be solved.  Dropping Malygos to 1hp during the P1-P2 transition also seems suspect, as does a pure burn on Sarth +3 but those are tried and true solutions to those encounters both of which trivialize entire phases of the encounter.  LOS exploitation is the expected solution in several fights while year after year WoW trains players to find the trick and win the prize (and reinforces the notion that end game bosses won't work right for the first few weeks no matter how you approach the fight).  This looks a lot like just another trick that wasn't considered in the design meetings (and why would it?  Saronite bombs have been constantly buffed since their introduction to make them relevant - why would an irrelevant class perk factor into an end-game raid boss encounter?).  Funny that I just found this (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t6290-c_thun/p2/#post133061) thread fortelling a shitstorm of Tigole posts quoted back at him when something is big is broken in Northrend.  Literally unkillable bosses haven't been a problem for quite a while, so that's progress right? 

Suspending accounts, while continuing to collect subscription fees, is pretty low rent for a situation where a problem on the vendor side led to unexpected behavior on the customer side.  It'd be like Toyota suspending your drivers license for owning a Camry, while the bank continues to collect your monthly payment, and the moral outrage being directed at the Camry owners.  Maybe Camry owners do deserve our ire, but really, the producer should show some pride in workmanship and cop to missing this interaction internally.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 04, 2010, 10:10:07 PM
Oh fuck off. They're not retarded, they knew exactly what they were doing and that it wasn't kosher.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 04, 2010, 10:18:40 PM
as does a pure burn on Sarth +3
There's a big difference between gearing for a fight to burn down 5M HP in 90s and exploiting a fight mechanic that results in no one taking damage for a significant portion of the battle.  As long as the risks of dying are still there to the entire raid and within the parameters of the fight, it's likely not a problem.  Exploiting LoS issues and terrain bugs, or glitches in the encounter are different.

That being said, every time we've had a glitch on a raid boss that resulted in us not being able to kill it (stuck at 1HP) or loot something (the body vanishes, chest doesn't open), a GM has pretty much always taken the "I cannot help thee with that" road giving us their "official policy is not to interfere on heroics and raids and they can't help you if there's a problem."


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 04, 2010, 11:11:43 PM
For real, that whole "If devs were perfect there would be no bugs so it's their fault!" thing followed by some tortured analogy to real life is so fucking 1998.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on February 04, 2010, 11:13:39 PM
wat

When you get banned they stop asking for payment.  So I don't know about your whole Toyota story.  It seems, how shall I say, suspect.

It's pretty much not a philosophical discussion, bro.  If I was at the switch over at Blizzard, maybe I'd handle it differently.  But they've been consistent.  If you do dumb shit you get banned.  As noted, this was very obviously dumb shit.  People have been perma banned for not much more.  The people in guilds that are doing that content are aware of these facts, I'm sure you know.  This is you put your face on fire and it got hot.  No shit.  Furor works on this game still, afaik.  He's on raids now, I hear.  He's like the patron saint of petulant foot stampers.  He knows if you're exploiting.  He invented it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on February 05, 2010, 03:36:05 AM
Is there some talking points post on the banned guild's website?  My guildleader was spewing the exact same shit in vent before last night's raid.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Azuredream on February 05, 2010, 05:58:37 AM
I wouldn't have banned them. To me the difference between Sarth3d burn and saronite bombs is so small that if you're going to ban one you should ban the other. Both are trivializing the encounter in an unintended manner. It's just that Blizzard on Sarth decided "oh clever players!" and on LK they said "BAN!".

Also, using 3rd party programs to remove walls in AQ is so many light years away from using an in-game mechanic to bug an encounter. That DOES deserve a ban.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 05, 2010, 07:37:11 AM
If your DPS rotation produces a Festivus Miracle, perhaps you should be just a little wary.   Comparing this to the 3D burn? Apples to jetpacks.  Serioulsy, do less drugs.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 05, 2010, 07:44:59 AM
I still don't understand the nerdrage over OS10+3 zerg. You kill the boss before the difficult part of the fight occurs; it's no more cheating than doing any low level instance solo as a level 80.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on February 05, 2010, 08:14:28 AM
THAT'S what you mean by 3D burn?  Yeah, pass your drugs this way.  That isn't in any way using a sploit.  You dps high enough to kill the boss quicker.  In all other sploit cases, the tricks were used on things that were obviously not intended by the designers.  Eventually having groups be uber enough to burn through a boss's hp before the event kicked in?  That's happened to every bit of content up to now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 05, 2010, 08:33:04 AM
Yeah, this comparison is absolutely stupid.

3D burn - kill the boss really fast.  No game mechanics are exploited, it's just that DPS is silly high.  Blizzard could fix it by having the drakes land at 45s per (which they currently do) or at each 25% of Sarth's health.  They decided to not toss in a fix, because the fight was pretty much trivialized by Ulduar gear, and there were still two more tiers to go.

Saronite bombs rebuild the platform, preventing mobs from dragging players to their deaths, which means DPS doesn't have to target switch to mobs to save raid members, which puts more DPS time on the boss - clear, blatant, incontestable exploit of mechanics that is very obviously not intended.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on February 05, 2010, 08:36:58 AM
Saronite bombs rebuild the platform, preventing mobs from dragging players to their deaths, which means DPS doesn't have to target switch to mobs to save raid members, which puts more DPS time on the boss.

Seems to me to be pretty good play by people that understand game mechanics well. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 05, 2010, 08:40:42 AM
Uhh no.  You're completely misunderstanding.  It's a completely unintended consequence of using a certain ability.

It's like discovering that Kick bugs out a boss preventing it from executing an ability that has no reason to be affected by Kick.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 05, 2010, 08:41:35 AM
Except the intent of that phase is Arthas summons valkyrs to drag players over parts of the platform that have fallen down.  The raid is supposed to switch targets to the valkyrs (there's one in 10s, three in 25s) and burn them before they drag the players off of the platform.  The saronite bombs were rebuilding the platform, which meant the valkyrs were dragging the players to drop onto a platform, so they were entirely ignorable.

This is clearly an exploit.  I'm not even sure how it is possible to argue otherwise.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on February 05, 2010, 08:50:09 AM
Uhh no.  You're completely misunderstanding.  It's a completely unintended consequence of using a certain ability.

You're right.  I did misunderstand.  I need to stop posting in these threads until I have more experience.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on February 05, 2010, 08:55:45 AM
Except the intent of that phase is Arthas summons valkyrs to drag players over parts of the platform that have fallen down.  The raid is supposed to switch targets to the valkyrs (there's one in 10s, three in 25s) and burn them before they drag the players off of the platform.  The saronite bombs were rebuilding the platform, which meant the valkyrs were dragging the players to drop onto a platform, so they were entirely ignorable.

This is clearly an exploit.  I'm not even sure how it is possible to argue otherwise.

It's an exploit to do it on purpose. I think the question is did the rogue know it was the saronite bombs doing it, because they're apparently completely normal in his rotation on all bosses.

If it was something he was doing differently than any other boss, I'd immediately go "ban the fucker, go nuts", but since he's doing the exact same thing as always, it seems harsh to immediately drop the banhammer without further explanation as to why this needed more than rolling back the achievement/loot.

I'd personally be confused if Scourge Strike happened to cause a mechanic to not happen in a fight, but I wouldn't immediately go "hey, scourge strike is bugged!" because I'd lack enough data to confirm that it was that ability out of everything that was doing it. However, if I DO confirm that SS causes the fight to be easier due to a bug, and I plan the fight around doing so, ban my ass.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 05, 2010, 09:22:17 AM
Well the forum noise is that the logs on their website mysteriously show no bombs hitting the LK during the bugged phase, the implication being that they were throwing them at the platforms instead. In any event, Blizzard was no doubt watching the whole thing and reading the chat logs. Unless these guys want to cough up a video showing them doing nothing wrong, fuck them. There's no reason to believe Blizzard just spastically banned them out of the blue.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 05, 2010, 09:25:03 AM
Except the intent of that phase is Arthas summons valkyrs to drag players over parts of the platform that have fallen down.  The raid is supposed to switch targets to the valkyrs (there's one in 10s, three in 25s) and burn them before they drag the players off of the platform.  The saronite bombs were rebuilding the platform, which meant the valkyrs were dragging the players to drop onto a platform, so they were entirely ignorable.

This is clearly an exploit.  I'm not even sure how it is possible to argue otherwise.

It's an exploit to do it on purpose. I think the question is did the rogue know it was the saronite bombs doing it, because they're apparently completely normal in his rotation on all bosses.

If it was something he was doing differently than any other boss, I'd immediately go "ban the fucker, go nuts", but since he's doing the exact same thing as always, it seems harsh to immediately drop the banhammer without further explanation as to why this needed more than rolling back the achievement/loot.

I'd personally be confused if Scourge Strike happened to cause a mechanic to not happen in a fight, but I wouldn't immediately go "hey, scourge strike is bugged!" because I'd lack enough data to confirm that it was that ability out of everything that was doing it. However, if I DO confirm that SS causes the fight to be easier due to a bug, and I plan the fight around doing so, ban my ass.

Whether they knew what was causing it or not is besides the point.  They had done the fight before, beaten it in ten man.  The mechanics of the fight were clearly being broken by something, whether it was a saronite bomb, blizzards bad programming or baby jesus raising the platform up it was a bug.  They knew it was a bugged encounter and went ahead with the kill anyways, knowing they were doing it ezmode.  Even in the best case scenario they probably just thought they were lucky as hell but still went ahead with the encounter.  

There was a bug in the game.  They exploited this bug for the kill.  Game developers don't like you doing this. They should have known better.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 05, 2010, 11:04:38 AM
Anyone here playing on Mal'Ganis by any chance?  Looking for a guild.

I forgot about the "What server are you playing on." thread.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 05, 2010, 12:39:09 PM
They finally nerfed prot pally HP a little, and brought DKs up a bit also, both were needed I think. Hopefully threat is up next on the plate.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 05, 2010, 12:41:36 PM
Hopefully threat is up next on the plate.

 :awesome_for_real: :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 05, 2010, 12:48:14 PM
Bears frown upon your shenanigans, sir.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 05, 2010, 12:53:45 PM
They don't count.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 05, 2010, 12:57:06 PM
Bears are peeeeeepuuul tooooooo.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on February 05, 2010, 01:05:48 PM
What's the issue with threat?  I assume you're speaking from a warrior point of view on multi-mob pulls?  I have to admit they need a boost.

From a prot pally perspective, ours is just right.  When I pull correctly and spread threat out, things go well.  However, it isn't OP enough to say there is no way to fail.  It can and does.  I've been in too many groups to count where the prot pally still screws things up and can't hold agro.  It is especially bad these days with dps classes doing 5k+ dps in standard heroic instances now.  Hell, I get DK's cracking 5k basically doing everything they can to pull agro from me at every corner.

Bears don't seem to have a problem, but I haven't tanked with mine yet.  I've rarely had the issues with bear tanks in groups I've healed compared to prot pally's.

DK's seem to do fine if they know what they are doing and keep diseases going correctly.  I think if DK's are willing to tank these days, they have enough confidence in their ability to trust they know what they are doing.  DPS DK's?  That's is completely hit or miss.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 05, 2010, 01:12:25 PM
Protection paladin threat is much too high in multitarget situations and somewhat high on single targets. After this last patch, warrior single target threat is over the top. Conversely, DK threat is low in general. Bears are in a decent place.

Ideally I'd expect them to nerf paladin AE threat (probably the hammercleave), minorly nerf their threat in general via tweaking down the RF multiplier, back out some of the warrior shield slam threat change, and up DK threat slightly. Warrior AE threat doesn't need a change other than adjustments to the people they're tanking with.

EDIT: I'm not really talking about heroics here, but raid situations.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 05, 2010, 01:26:55 PM
Seal of Cleave is making paladin AE threat even more hilarious.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 05, 2010, 01:35:34 PM
Oh right that was the other thing, it wouldn't terribly surprise me to see Seal of Command get a 'only with 2 handed weapons' type clause.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on February 05, 2010, 01:59:37 PM
Ingmar's warrior threat versus my DK threat since the patch is ... really depressing. When we tank swap, he has to just auto attack a lot of the time.  :cry2: I can keep threat off of my DPSers and stuff fine (or at least none of them seem to fuss about my threat ever), but the difference between me and the other tanks threat-wise is getting really obvious now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on February 05, 2010, 03:42:04 PM
Oh right that was the other thing, it wouldn't terribly surprise me to see Seal of Command get a 'only with 2 handed weapons' type clause.

That would make me cry, but it wouldn't change anything in raids.

Command is really only better AOE threat if packs last less than 25-30s.  Past that, and I usually am as an off-tank in ICC, I'm better off using Seal of Corruption and doing a bit of tab targeting before hitting HotR to make sure everyone's getting the Corruption DoT applied.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lightstalker on February 05, 2010, 05:43:53 PM

I think the Sarth +3 example is really quite apt - the outrage over it only reenforces its appropriateness.  The example needed only to show that it is common in WoW raiding for players to discover the gimmick or trick to trivializing portions of boss fights.  It does this, in spades.

Sarth +3 is so named for the three additional dragons you have to fight while dealing with Sartharion.  By application of standard game mechanics players can not only negate portions of the encounter, they can avoid fighting the three additional dragons for which the encounter is named.  The belief here is that Sarth +3 is so clearly acceptable the comparison is comical, but I'm just pointing out that both are manifestations of the same general principle.

All the so called exploiters did was negate a phase of the fight using the tools available to any player in the game.  There was no code modification or injection here, this was just a bug in the marquee raiding event of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion.  Blizzard responded to this bug not with an apology to the playerbase, but by blaming some customers for using the product incorrectly. 



Not having been banned previously I cannot really comment on still taking the money bit (and probably should have skipped that rhetoric), but this was a 72 hour suspension.  Presumably they expect the subscription to continue after the 72 hours have expired. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 05, 2010, 05:49:36 PM
Nutbag.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 05, 2010, 05:50:38 PM
Could you take this one wua?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on February 05, 2010, 06:00:02 PM
lol

Ignorant.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: LK on February 05, 2010, 06:11:19 PM
Developers spend many man hours scripting / coding the pinnacle of an expansion.

Players break the complicated encounter in a way game designers / QA did not foresee due to they only have about 100 set of eyes and the internet having about eight hojillion.

Developers get extremely butt hurt over their perfect little thing being broken, even though it was likely to happen given the extreme complexity of programs and the likelihood that something was missed.

Ex-WoW player has a small chuckle at the drama between the hardcore and the hardcore (Devs / Top-Tier Players) and gets on with trying to figure out life outside the digital.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on February 05, 2010, 06:41:17 PM
Once the developers took out resist checks, they opened the door to anything they do being skullfucked in 24 hours after release. Not that I liked them, but when you make take gear down to the simplest forms, you can't stop the top end.

Or in another version, how many fights in Icecrown and beyond use the "Oh shit, stuff that's bad is stacking on the tank so you HAVE to swap." Expect that shit to continue on every boss along with enrage timers.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on February 05, 2010, 06:52:30 PM
Sarth +3 is so named for the three additional dragons you have to fight while dealing with Sartharion.

That's a rather tall assumption considering each add is a timed event.  On the other hand, assuming that bombs rebuilding exploded platforms is a bug is not a tall assumption.

Or: stop being a retard.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 05, 2010, 07:01:14 PM
Paelos, as a tank I rather like the swapping due to debuff. It gives both tanks (or all 3 tanks) an equal amount of "work", rather than one MT and an OT on adds or some shit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 05, 2010, 07:32:14 PM
All the so called exploiters did was negate a phase of the fight using the tools available to any player in the game.  There was no code modification or injection here, this was just a bug in the marquee raiding event of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion.  Blizzard responded to this bug not with an apology to the playerbase, but by blaming some customers for using the product incorrectly.

Seriously, is this 1998? Are you trying to explain how using a bug to break into someone's UO house should totally be allowed? They knew perfectly god damn well that throwing bombs at the platform to make it magically reappear was a bug, and they went ahead and did it anyway. (If they weren't throwing the bombs at the platforms deliberately, then where's the video? Normal DPS rotation my ass.) Then they got banned. Welcome to something we call How Shit Has Always Worked For As Long As This Genre Has Existed.

I mean I love this bullshit alternate universe you must live in. The one where the poopsocks didn't realize they were doing anything wrong, but the Blizzard guys were all "A bug? IN OUR CODE?! CHRIST I'M SO ANGRY, LET'S BAN THE TOP RAID GUILD FOR NO REASON!" Like bugs in brand new encounters are something unprecedented that they just weren't prepared to see without getting butthurt and going berzerk on the poor innocent raiders.

Your whole "But they didn't refund them for the time they were banned!" spew isn't even worth quoting.

Quit faggoting up the board with this garbage. It's old, old, older than shit and no one in history has EVER EVER EVER bought it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on February 05, 2010, 08:06:08 PM
Paelos, as a tank I rather like the swapping due to debuff. It gives both tanks (or all 3 tanks) an equal amount of "work", rather than one MT and an OT on adds or some shit.

Yes, it does. However, it's an overused and clumsy force. It's the same way an enrage timer is used as a force on the dps. They are both reactionary elements to keep groups from stacking massive amounts of bad to average dps. That, or just having awesome heals. Blizzard hates good healers.

It's either a stacking debuff or a cleave, and it's always stupid. It's a force to keep the raid from taking one tank, when in reality when you are tanking on one thing, you should only need one tank.

In a world of dual spec, that's not too much too worry about anymore.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 05, 2010, 08:53:57 PM
If raids only need 1 tank, instead of 3, less players are dedicated tanks. Which in turn leads to less tanks for heroics. Making longer queues for DPS, and the average Random heroic tank much worse, as it's only his poorly geared offspec.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on February 05, 2010, 10:02:37 PM
Yeah, I prefer tank swappage over "you only need one tank for most of these" fights. I wouldn't mind seeing more linked bosses like Twin Valks, both tanks are doing their tank thing without having to fuss with swapping, and it's equally important, unlike the "offtank stands in a corner with his or her mob and is ignored by everyone except a kind hearted healer" fights.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on February 05, 2010, 10:17:35 PM
Paelos, as a tank I rather like the swapping due to debuff. It gives both tanks (or all 3 tanks) an equal amount of "work", rather than one MT and an OT on adds or some shit.

Yes, it does. However, it's an overused and clumsy force. It's the same way an enrage timer is used as a force on the dps. They are both reactionary elements to keep groups from stacking massive amounts of bad to average dps. That, or just having awesome heals. Blizzard hates good healers.

It's either a stacking debuff or a cleave, and it's always stupid. It's a force to keep the raid from taking one tank, when in reality when you are tanking on one thing, you should only need one tank.

In a world of dual spec, that's not too much too worry about anymore.

They seem to be forgiving a bit on number of tanks required in 10 man. But the general idea is x% of the raid should be Y role. Mainly because making a 25 man raid only ever need 1 tank 3 healers and 21 DPS does nothing but make sure that outside of raids dps can't find a damned group and inside raids tanks and healers can't.

Is it a lazy method of doing it? Yeah, but it's the only really guaranteed method of doing it. Every time they make it multiple mobs that need tanking as a single "boss" fight, some jackass gears their tank right for the mechanics and gets badass healers and tanks everything himself.

I really don't think Blizzard hates Healers though. I can't see anything in the game that implies that at all. Hell, my healers tend to feel like the golden children of WoW (priests get all the love). WoW hates PALADINS, however. <3

I will say that resist fights as a mechanic are less "cool, something different!" as much as "go here, farm gear" with a side of "dump 3-5k gold into these epic crafted items with shitty stats in order for ONE boss to be less of a bitch"

Seriously, bring on the tank swapping if it means we don't need to bitch the entire raid out to go get fucking resist gear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on February 05, 2010, 11:18:55 PM
I think the Sarth +3 example is really quite apt - the outrage over it only reenforces its appropriateness.  The example needed only to show that it is common in WoW raiding for players to discover the gimmick or trick to trivializing portions of boss fights.  It does this, in spades.
See, there is a MAJOR difference between Sarth 3D burns, and Saronite Bombs in the lich king encounter.

A Sarth 3d burn is not actually fundamentally changing the behaviour of the encounter.  It is essentially nothing more then takeing advantage of the way damage increases as gear increases.  More gear means more damage, means the boss dies faster.   And in a timed, scripted event like Sarth, where the drakes land on a FIXED timer, simple math says that if you can kill the boss before the second drake lands, it isn't an exploit, but simply an unintended consequence of greatly increased dps.

The lich king encounter is Scripted in such a way that the outer portions of his encounter area break away, and mobs grab your players and attempt to drop them to their doom.  The platforms are 100% NOT intended to come back after breaking away, so it is pretty obvious that when the platforms magically (can be intentionally forced to) respawn, thereby completely removing an entire dimension of that phaze of the encounter from consideration, somethiing is very wrong.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 05, 2010, 11:49:00 PM
Edit: Whoops wrong thread


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Azuredream on February 06, 2010, 06:23:27 AM
Is the sole difference here that Sarth is obsolete content that no one cares about whereas LK is the last boss of the expansion? You can't argue that burning the boss doesn't completely trivialize the fight. It DOES fundamentally change it. Or is it that because a burn is only possible if you outgear it, whereas the bombs are available to anyone?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on February 06, 2010, 07:00:38 AM
Is the sole difference here that Sarth is obsolete content that no one cares about whereas LK is the last boss of the expansion? You can't argue that burning the boss doesn't completely trivialize the fight. It DOES fundamentally change it. Or is it that because a burn is only possible if you outgear it, whereas the bombs are available to anyone?

I think a more specific encounter comparison would be people killing XT in locations where his extra adds would not spawn. I don't think anyone cared about it and it was just patched one day because it wasn't some notable all over the web event. It was just a random boss that people exploited for weeks with no real penalties. They seem to only suspend for the end bosses from what I can see.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 06, 2010, 08:13:24 AM
One is a basic function of the game.  The entire point of the game (mechanically) is to always get more DPS.  The other is using an item to bring about unintended consequences.

There really isn't any comparison.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 06, 2010, 08:19:19 AM
The difference is that you're not doing anything shady in OS10+3; you're just dpsing hard. Is it exploiting to kill Grand Magus Telestra in H Nexus before she splits the second time? Should I have my Split Personality achievement removed? Is a tank popping his cooldowns and tanking Patchwerk alone an exploit?

The XT fight kildorn mentioned is a better example; another one that is a valid comparison is the Heigan corner tanking strategy. In both of those cases you are doing something SPECIFIC to change or nullify a mechanic of a fight. The only thing you're doing in OS10+3 is overgearing it, and that isn't an exploit, it's a core goal of the game.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 06, 2010, 10:04:55 AM
Tanking XT never seemed like an exploit to be honest, and it didn't really matter when they changed it.

The first Yogg0 kill where the guild used a paladin to evade-bug adds which were intentionally unkillable so they didn't need to be tanked, that is an exploit. Patching out walls in a raid, that is an exploit. These go above and beyond what most people label as exploits because you are funtionally breaking a certain portion of the fight.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 06, 2010, 10:16:01 AM
Is the sole difference here that Sarth is obsolete content that no one cares about whereas LK is the last boss of the expansion? You can't argue that burning the boss doesn't completely trivialize the fight. It DOES fundamentally change it. Or is it that because a burn is only possible if you outgear it, whereas the bombs are available to anyone?

The fight wasn't terribly easy to burn in Uld gear.  You'd go in with minimum heals, and pray for a little RNG luck with Sarth breathing on the tank and lava waves, as a lava wave that forced your healers to move coinciding with Sarth breathing was almost certainly a wipe.  You'd have to have someone kiting around an enraged drake (they enrage when Sarth hits something like 25%, I believe) and if you lost a single DPS to bad luck, such as little drakes, or elementals, it was going to be a wipe.  It isn't terribly much easier than simply doing the fight the "right" way in the same gear, as it'd be fairly trivial to burn each drake as they landed, it's just a shorter learning curve.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 06, 2010, 10:34:52 AM
The fight wasn't terribly easy to burn in Uld gear.
It took us 16 tries to get it the first time in Naxx-25\Uld-10 gear back in the July\August timeframe.  It was certainly not easy and required lots of luck just as you said.  In contrast last night, we did it in a 1-shot with our pally tank forgetting to put Righteous Fury on and having Sarth constantly turning to other people.  Top DPS was 8800 compared to the 4500 of the first tries.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 07, 2010, 06:26:42 AM
Speaking of blatant exploits, there's a couple of hilarious ways to get approximately a fuckton of charm bracelets for the Valentine's event. Think along the lines of "What quests/dungeons/raids do I get to mow down a bunch of L80-ish mobs with minimal effort?"  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 07, 2010, 09:07:51 AM
Do the mobs have to be looted to get the bracelets? Or are kills enough?

Edit: kills are enough. H CoS ftw


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on February 07, 2010, 10:29:37 AM
And I just got the zombiefest achievement yesterday. Time to run it again!  :awesome_for_real:

I wonder if this'll get hotfixed, not that getting a ton of bracelets is OMFG game breaking or anything.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on February 07, 2010, 02:32:01 PM
Supposedly, UBER bracelets can be had if you go to ulduar, hop in a vehicle, and run around mowing down dwarves for half an hour.  It also appearently works with the argent jousting horses and the 1 shot trample skeletons out front of icecrown.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 07, 2010, 04:34:39 PM
...and the Icecrown bombing runs, and the jihadi-abomination daily, and so on. I'm expecting a "Doesn't work in vehicles" hotfix pretty soon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 07, 2010, 05:32:39 PM
And I thought I was being abusive chain killing the frenzyheart fighting circle...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on February 07, 2010, 05:58:35 PM
There's also the Icecrown harpoon gun quest. 

I don't see a reason to hotfix it, but you're right they probably will.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 07, 2010, 08:12:26 PM
If they hotfix ranks and vehicles in Wintergrasp I don't care one way or the other about the bracelets. :x


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 08, 2010, 11:15:45 AM
After 5 damn years, Darnassus now has a Paladin AND a Mage trainer! Both in the Temple of the Moon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on February 08, 2010, 12:04:53 PM
After 5 damn years, Darnassus now has a Paladin AND a Mage trainer! Both in the Temple of the Moon.

The mage trainer is probably setup for Cataclysm, but paladins?

Now if Silvermoon gets a warrior trainer, things will be peachy!  Right, blood elves can't be warriors, but there is a druid trainer there. Explain that!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 08, 2010, 12:05:51 PM
The paladin trainer is there for convenience, like the shaman trainer that Stormwind has always had since we got draenei.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 08, 2010, 01:11:26 PM
Both the Paladin and Mage Trainer are Draenei's. The Mage Trainer is actually the Draenei's ambassador, they turned her into a mage trainer. The Paladin trainer is just beside her.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: LK on February 08, 2010, 01:29:08 PM
Ohhh, I get it. You thought by adding a trainer it's a confirmation that Night Elves were going to be certain classes rather than doing it for convenience and smart game design (better late than never, right?).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 08, 2010, 01:51:59 PM
Ohhh, I get it. You thought by adding a trainer it's a confirmation that Night Elves were going to be certain classes rather than doing it for convenience and smart game design (better late than never, right?).

Actually they've already announced night elves would be mages in cataclysm about...six months ago.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kail on February 08, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
Now if Silvermoon gets a warrior trainer, things will be peachy!

Shammy trainer, plz.  Warriors can hop over to Undercity, at least.  Young Shamans have to trek all the way back to Orgrimmar (in addition to all the retarded circles they still have to run to get their totems).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 08, 2010, 05:00:51 PM
It was still annoying for Warriors.  Have to run into the Undercity and through the maze to the outer ring.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 09, 2010, 05:30:49 AM
Now if Silvermoon gets a warrior trainer, things will be peachy!

Shammy trainer, plz.  Warriors can hop over to Undercity, at least.  Young Shamans have to trek all the way back to Orgrimmar (in addition to all the retarded circles they still have to run to get their totems).
Or just stay in Durotar/Barrens, which will be better than Silvermoon/Ghostlands once Cataclysm hits.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on February 09, 2010, 06:18:46 AM
Looking at the design notes, Cata will make it so you won't be visiting the trainers as often.  Spell ranks will automatically go up as you level.  Yes, you have to go to the traniners to get those new spells/powers, but maybe not as often?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on February 09, 2010, 07:02:35 AM
Or just stay in Durotar/Barrens, which will be better than Silvermoon/Ghostlands once Cataclysm hits.

This is true, I hadn't thought of that.  For now, the Ghostlands/Azuremyst experience is really head and shoulders over the vanilla starting areas.  The goblin/worgen areas are going to be even better if the DK starting area is any indication. 

They are really taking this to the next level. Now if only someone else could learn these simple lessons.  The entire MMOG industry's eggs are in one basket.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on February 09, 2010, 09:06:11 AM
They are really taking this to the next level. Now if only someone else could learn these simple lessons.  The entire MMOG industry's eggs are in one basket.

They won't, and they have only themselves to blame.  You STILL, 5 years later hear people saying WoW is an outlier built ONLY on Blizzard's name and fanbase. A fanbase that will disappear from WoW once the next Blizzard game hits the shelves. There's nothing to learn from them and (this is the new one) they haven't introduced a SINGLE innovation or new idea to MMOs in the last 5 years.  That, if anything, they've held the genre back

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on February 09, 2010, 09:45:27 AM
To be fair, anyone that comes out with anything remotely close to WoW also gets called a WoW clone.

Damn if you do, damned if you don't...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 09, 2010, 09:54:42 AM
The only things coming out remotely close to WoW are aping the style and not the lessons learned.  They have all deserved their mockery.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 09, 2010, 11:10:19 AM
The only things coming out remotely close to WoW are aping the style and not the lessons learned.  They have all deserved their mockery.

Exactly. No game has come out in the past five years that's been able to capture the gameplay of wow.  If anything games like aoc and war harken back to the eq/daoc days than anything and that's why they failed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on February 09, 2010, 11:44:57 AM
That is all true.  I guess my point is that one of two things happens (not saying it is right) when a new game comes out:

- Try something different, but it sucks.  Respones: "You should have done it like WoW."
- Do something like WoW.  Response: "You just copied WoW!"

We've said it a lot already.  WoW does the following better than anyone has and thus rules them all currently:

- Look at what is happening with other games and use it, but with more polish and shine.
- Listen to the customer base and make changes accordingly.  Stop acting like anything that benefits the customer is a "bad thing."  (LFG system that is quick and easy, dual-specs, server moves, faction changes, easier/quicker leveling at low levels, etc.)
- Continue to push for "something better" in each patch and expansion.  Companies with their market position in the past stopped this at some point.  It always felt like they reached a level where they thought it was time to just milk this cow until it dies.  I've never felt that from Blizzard on WoW and, in fact, they seem to have ramped this up over time.
- Don't release anything unless it is reasonably DONE.  Schedules be damned!  Frustrating at times, but much better than the alternative.  We've seen and done that way too often.
- When you do launch something different (phasing, vehicles, siege, etc.) and it doesn't work quite like it should, work towards fixing it.  Ok, this might take longer than players would like, but they eventually get it right.  I'd much rather they fail than not try at all.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on February 09, 2010, 11:56:47 AM
- Continue to push for "something better" in each patch and expansion.  Companies with their market position in the past stopped this at some point.  It always felt like they reached a level where they thought it was time to just milk this cow until it dies.  I've never felt that from Blizzard on WoW and, in fact, they seem to have ramped this up over time.

WoW was pretty atrophied during TBC.  Wrath is a high water mark for the developers coming back and saying "Let's give a fuck!"  I'm fairly certain they were hedging their bets in favour of Wrath being their last expansion, not realizing how badly their competition was going to fuck things up and open the way for them milking WoW for another five years.  Which is fine, because Blizzard gives more thought to their milking than anyone else does to earnest development.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 09, 2010, 10:38:19 PM
Today was just a couple hotfixes right?

I ask because Andorhal has been in full blown patch mode all day: world servers crashing, mail lag, AH randomly not working, etc. Server finally came down about an hour and a half ago, and it's still not back up.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Cadaverine on February 09, 2010, 10:59:09 PM
From what I understand it was just hotfixes, mainly to correct the issues with the charm bracelets.  Seems they screwed the pooch, though, and broke some stuff in ICC, or something, and then all the server issues.  I haven't seen much different from the usual lag I get, but there was much crying about it in Trade chat, on the server forum.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 09, 2010, 11:06:37 PM
First 6 bosses in ICC seemed to be working ok for my group. What'd they change about the bracelets? The big change I noticed on mmo-champion was the removal of limited attempts on ICC bosses in normal mode.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on February 10, 2010, 12:32:58 AM
I think they changed it so that Lovely Charms no longer drop if you use vehicles to kill mobs (so no more Ulduar Dwarf Farming, or ICC Jousting / Bombing run farming.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on February 10, 2010, 02:53:37 AM
the Ghostlands/Azuremyst experience is really head and shoulders over the vanilla starting areas.  The goblin/worgen areas are going to be even better if the DK starting area is any indication. 

Azuremyst/Bloodmyst Isles are excellent levelling experiences, well laid out for the most part, though Bloodmyst is in all honesty way too big. Ghostlands, on the other hand, is a steaming dark green lump of design fail as far as I'm concerned. Abysmal mob placement, quests that require you to traipse through stuff able to 1 or 2 shot you at the level you get them, a wandering elite, and considering it pertains to being one of the most important places in WoW lore, a dull environment filled with dull quests.

I have no doubt Gilneas/The Lost Islands will be better than ever before, but I do hope they've learned a few things from the previous two - chiefly, keeping it concise and making sure you enjoy every moment you're there.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on February 10, 2010, 02:57:46 AM
The palette of Azure/Blood Myst is complete fucking eyerape.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on February 10, 2010, 05:54:14 AM
I think they changed it so that Lovely Charms no longer drop if you use vehicles to kill mobs (so no more Ulduar Dwarf Farming, or ICC Jousting / Bombing run farming.)

During last night's lag-fest, I definitely noticed that jousting near ICC was not dropping charms as before.  The bummer is that the server hijinks took one day out of a very short World Event.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 10, 2010, 06:24:50 AM
I did a HCOS and didn't get very many charm drops either.  I got very few last night where as I was getting charms a lot more often before.

My server was down for a long time, but performance seemed fine when I hopped on at night.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on February 10, 2010, 06:37:47 AM
Doesn't fixing bugs like this during a short and meaningless event just cause those that haven't finished it yet to be at a large disadvantage?  Seems the best thing to do would be to leave it as-is and fix it for next year.   Especially when fixing this 2 week event costs everyone a day of playtime. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 10, 2010, 07:18:58 AM
I had the luckiest run of Heroic 5 Mans last night.

I was able to just about round out my character in BiS gear before raiding. 

Needle Encrusted Scorpion dropped and I won a roll vs 3 people.
Tyrannical Beheader dropped and I won it.
The Lady's Promise dropped and I won it vs. 3 people.

Not much else for me to do other than upgrade my Frost Wyrm Ribcage chestpiece to the 50 badge one of Conquest and work on my professions.

I need to find a casual raiding guild, or attempt to get into pugs with a 4800 GS and no achievements.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on February 10, 2010, 08:53:21 AM
Doesn't fixing bugs like this during a short and meaningless event just cause those that haven't finished it yet to be at a large disadvantage?  Seems the best thing to do would be to leave it as-is and fix it for next year.   Especially when fixing this 2 week event costs everyone a day of playtime. 

Ah, I see - I was misreading the calendar in-game.  I thought the event only went through Thursday (and then Lunar Festival started), which is why I was extra-peeved at the downtime.  I should be able to complete the achievments I was after, then.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on February 10, 2010, 09:14:49 AM
the Ghostlands/Azuremyst experience is really head and shoulders over the vanilla starting areas.  The goblin/worgen areas are going to be even better if the DK starting area is any indication. 

Azuremyst/Bloodmyst Isles are excellent levelling experiences, well laid out for the most part, though Bloodmyst is in all honesty way too big. Ghostlands, on the other hand, is a steaming dark green lump of design fail as far as I'm concerned. Abysmal mob placement, quests that require you to traipse through stuff able to 1 or 2 shot you at the level you get them, a wandering elite, and considering it pertains to being one of the most important places in WoW lore, a dull environment filled with dull quests.

I really liked the quest where you get the bracelet that you give to Sylvanas, though.  If you stick around after you give it to her, she summons some banshees and sings a lament to what she's lost.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on February 10, 2010, 09:31:52 AM
Azuremyst/Bloodmyst Isles are excellent levelling experiences, well laid out for the most part, though Bloodmyst is in all honesty way too big. Ghostlands, on the other hand, is a steaming dark green lump of design fail as far as I'm concerned. Abysmal mob placement, quests that require you to traipse through stuff able to 1 or 2 shot you at the level you get them, a wandering elite, and considering it pertains to being one of the most important places in WoW lore, a dull environment filled with dull quests.

Oh seriously folks, when they came out we were all raising the roof about how awesome they were. They have a storyline, a point, a faction to build rep with and buy shiny blue stuff when you leave (and are exalted with it), they're laid out logically and are generally really polished.  This is in comparison to the old model of "I don't know; kill ten puppies and come back to me for your reward".

In retrospect they seem terrible but I'm pretty sure we'll be here two years from now talking about how the DK starting area was SO HORRIBLE and what we have now is much better  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 10, 2010, 10:10:03 AM
Blood Elf and Draenai starting areas are still full of awesome.  Well created zones in my opinion and still hold up.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Cadaverine on February 10, 2010, 11:25:41 AM
I think they changed it so that Lovely Charms no longer drop if you use vehicles to kill mobs (so no more Ulduar Dwarf Farming, or ICC Jousting / Bombing run farming.)

During last night's lag-fest, I definitely noticed that jousting near ICC was not dropping charms as before.  The bummer is that the server hijinks took one day out of a very short World Event.

They changed it so that mobs that don't normally give xp, despite being green or better, don't drop the charms.  So all the zombies, jousting, Frenyheart/Oracles, etc. are all out.  It's all good, though.  At 4079 GS, my Balance druid can still burn through the Cult of the Damned mobs behind the tournament grounds at quite a clip, and they've got a decent respawn.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 10, 2010, 12:30:19 PM
Thankfully I only had a few achievements left on either character.  What's silly is that you need forty drops for a series of dailies to get tokens so you can do achievements.  Or 120 drops for the Charmed, which is only three days worth of turn-ins.

I guess having a holiday where you never needed to step outside the cities for most of it was too much to ask for.  (Not that the old system didn't have some serious flaws.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 10, 2010, 01:37:05 PM
Incidentally, a hotfix went in that you get charms from someone in your group killing a mob instead of just yourself. So...the normal heroic runs should give you ample for the event.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 10, 2010, 03:35:51 PM
The drop rate seems less than stellar though. Might make CoT:Strat more popular for a while though


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on February 11, 2010, 02:12:39 AM
Anyone have any experience with LFD queue times as a leveling healer, say from 20 on up?  (In the Shadowburn battlegroup especially.)

Tanks are instant, and DPS has been about 10-20 minutes in my experience leveling an Arms Warrior.  At 80, healers are one/two minutes at most, but I don't know if that holds true down to the low levels.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 11, 2010, 06:33:01 AM
Anyone have any experience with LFD queue times as a leveling healer, say from 20 on up?
It's entirely hit or miss.  Sometimes it will take forever, other times it will be instant.  My tank had issues getting groups in the early 60's some nights, and then no issues at all other nights.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 11, 2010, 08:28:47 AM
It's been a long time coming for my guild, but I think Putricide is going to be the boss that finally breaks it.   :argh:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: ezrast on February 11, 2010, 09:57:55 AM
Anyone have any experience with LFD queue times as a leveling healer, say from 20 on up?  (In the Shadowburn battlegroup especially.)

Tanks are instant, and DPS has been about 10-20 minutes in my experience leveling an Arms Warrior.  At 80, healers are one/two minutes at most, but I don't know if that holds true down to the low levels.
I've been leveling a resto shaman since 49 exclusively through LFD on Sargeras, which is in Shadowburn. Usually the queues aren't more than a minute or two unless I'm playing at 5 AM or something; they're definitely a little longer at the pre-death-knight levels though. Can't speak to the lower levels but I would be surprised if healers took much longer than tanks (in fact I'm surprised that queues for tanks are shorter than for healers at all).

Does anybody know how checking the group leader thing affects queue times? Like, if a tank, a healer, and 3 dps are all in queue but none have leader selected will it refuse to group them, or just give lead to someone at random?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 11, 2010, 11:10:20 AM
I always pick leader on my mains, not sure if it has any benefit. I can't see how it would make quese slower, and it might make groups quicker. Depends on how many people don't tick the option (and I have no idea there).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Hutch on February 11, 2010, 01:28:33 PM

Does anybody know how checking the group leader thing affects queue times? Like, if a tank, a healer, and 3 dps are all in queue but none have leader selected will it refuse to group them, or just give lead to someone at random?

I've never checked the box, but I've been handed the Party Leader slot more than once.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on February 11, 2010, 03:14:38 PM
The tick doesn't do anything, does it?  Originally it was going to give 'extra loot' and some achieve, but neither of those were implemented.  I wonder if the checkbox is just a leftover from that iteration, like the "LFG Flag" was at the end of Vanilla's open beta.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 11, 2010, 03:23:54 PM
It makes you have [Dungeon Guide] or [Party Leader] for your chat prefix instead of [Party], I don't think it does anything else.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 11, 2010, 05:29:17 PM
It's been a long time coming for my guild, but I think Putricide is going to be the boss that finally breaks it.   :argh:
Yeah, our guild has hit that wall.  We're *this* close, but it always seems to fall apart.  Luckily we have enough alt distractions and old hard modes to occupy our time so we aren't at each others throats.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 11, 2010, 05:32:08 PM
I imagine that has to do with how the guild formed in the first place. If the whole goal at the start was to progress and do content that sort of thing will leave a littered trail of dead guilds. The ones that are just there to hang out and happened to stumble into raiding accidentally like us just shrug and go 'oh well' when we can't do something and go back to leveling alts.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 17, 2010, 08:26:22 AM
I'm stuck in progression.  I found a cool guild that lets me play in ICC25 sometimes and outside finding another guild, I'm stuck.  I have the best gear available before raiding.  I can't manage to get into TOC25/10 mans because my gearscore isn't high (4987) and I don't have achievements.  I'm stuck in a Catch-22 because I'm on an elitist douchebag server that is Mal'Ganis.  You can't even get into a TOC raid without a 5.3 GS and achievements.  The only one I did manage to get into fell apart after one kill.

The only thing I can think of is trying to find another guild, but that's tough as a DPS DK.

I guess there really is no point to this post other than venting.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on February 17, 2010, 09:28:13 AM
I can't manage to get into TOC25/10 mans because my gearscore isn't high (4987)...

(spews drink out of nose) Ok, my 4K gearscore just depressed me...

I'm stuck in a Catch-22 because I'm on an elitist douchebag server that is Mal'Ganis.  You can't even get into a TOC raid without a 5.3 GS and achievements.

I'm on a pretty laid-back server (Sen'Jin - only one guild has cleared ICC), but people get laughed at if they gear check for ToC10 in Trade chat.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Arinon on February 17, 2010, 09:36:44 AM
That's a ridiculous requirement.  If you just want to jack up your gearscore easiest way is to replace some 232 gear with 264 PvP gear.  Bracer and neck come to mind right away as they require no arena rating and can be purchased with straight honour.  Generally just as good as 232 stuff if you discount the resil but if someone is just looking at the GS number they could buy you a couple hundred points.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 17, 2010, 10:23:07 AM
Or just lie: http://sites.google.com/site/gearscoreugh/home


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 17, 2010, 12:16:23 PM

(spews drink out of nose) Ok, my 4K gearscore just depressed me...


A 4987 gearscore is having the best gear you can get out of heroics and badges (including 50 frost emblems).

That's a ridiculous requirement.  If you just want to jack up your gearscore easiest way is to replace some 232 gear with 264 PvP gear.  Bracer and neck come to mind right away as they require no arena rating and can be purchased with straight honour.  Generally just as good as 232 stuff if you discount the resil but if someone is just looking at the GS number they could buy you a couple hundred points.

I agree completely, but you can get away with that on Mal'Ganis.  They do an initial GS check and you're ok.  But if they see you doing shitty DPS (which wouldn't be shitty dps for that raid), they'll kick you out.

For me, I've never done Ulduar, TOC or ICC.  I don't know the fights and you can only get so much from watching videos.  I hate saying I have zero experience with the place (no achievements) because you'll get kicked. 

Good example would be the Beasts of Northrend.  You have that one guy that shoots everyone against the wall and charges someone.  Well he focuses on me the first go around!  How lucky of me.  I ran out of the way but apparently just not far enough.  (I got stuck on a pillar on the wall and couldn't run fast enough after I realized I was stuck.  Fuck camera screwed me.)  After that happened a few of the douches in the group started screaming at me about it even though we still won.

Ah well.  Nerd rage.  I shrug and move on.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 17, 2010, 12:36:59 PM
Ah well.  Nerd rage.  I shrug and move on.
Welcome to raiding.  That's what most of the elitist guilds are like.  Your only real hope is to find a group of casual players who want to learn to raid but are serious about it at the same time (NOTHING worse than a casual guild of people who can't bother to read up on fights or gem\enchant gear properly or at all).  If you eventually form a guild or get into one like that, great.  My server is pretty active and there are plenty of PUG raids out there that happen, but most break up just like you describe because a DPS is only doing 1k or a tank doesn't know the fights well enough to manage aggro and cooldowns.  Only if you get into a hardcore guild's alt run (or one of our PUGs ;-) ) can you pretty much be guaranteed a win.  When we go in to TotC-10, it's over in 45 minutes even with alts and the occasional PUG.

Have you visited your realm's forum to see if anyone is recruiting for any guilds that want to see progression?  New guilds form all of the time, and while most don't last, if it gets you experience and some gear in the fights, it's a step into the next one or a more "serious" or established guild.  That's how I got started back at the beginning of WotLK.  Joined a casual guild, put together a few VERY fail raids (OS-1 trash wipes for an hour!) but eventually managed to put together 10 people who didn't completely suck and got some raid content down (most of Naxx and OS).  Then that guild broke up, some people moved elsewhere, got a reputation for not sucking combined with being on at consistent times and before too long I was in a 25-m guild doing cutting edge content and hardmodes.  You have to want it and work at it though, being on 1-2 nights a week for 30-45m at a time isn't going to cut it.  Not that you are doing that, just saying that a certain amount of effort goes into proving yourself as a raider to a good guild.  Once you've done that, it's as casual as you want to be provided you gem\enchant all new gear appropriately, learn fights beforehand, and show up on time ;-)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on February 17, 2010, 01:31:11 PM
Only solution is make your own groups.  It's a headache, but if you want to get stuff and get into a guild it's the only way.  It's also a good way to meet guildless people who are willing to join a guild you might create if you are so inclined.  Unless you have friends in high places that will carry you, there's nothing else you can do.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 17, 2010, 01:52:24 PM
Ah well.  Nerd rage.  I shrug and move on.
Welcome to raiding. 

I'm by no means a stranger to raiding and/or hardcore raiding.  I'm just a casual player now on an elitist douchebag server.  I knew what I was getting into.  I'm just venting really.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on February 18, 2010, 10:54:57 AM
I'm feeling this from a different angle... sort of like "Yay, I won WoW Casual 3.3"... but now I have nothing to do.

Unlike you, I don't want to raid (never found the scripted "Boss Hokey-Pokey" all that fun)... but can't find any new content or incremental advancement for my main.

I applaud the design shift that drop-kicks folks quickly to the new tiers of content (brilliant for the life of the game)... but I still find the lingering notion that now that I am RAID READY (TM) that I'll want to raid.  Perhaps this will die too in 4.0.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Zetor on February 18, 2010, 11:39:22 AM
Same.. my DK (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Crushridge&n=zaphiir) got [some of] the best non-raid stuff now (I don't have the gearscore mod, but it's probably under 5200 which is what seems to be required on my server to do anything), and I have a hunch I wouldn't be let into an icc or even a toc raid since I don't have the achievements. :p I don't really care though, I still have fun grouping with my (much less geared) guildies, or tanking/healing on my other two chars.

Some more 5man content would be nice ('hard modes' of original heroics ala 45min strat / valthalak? har), but all things considered WOTLK is waaaaaaaay better than vanilla WOW for the casual player (yeah, go farm scholomance for the 80th time to watch your helm - that has useless stats on it anyway - never drop!).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on February 18, 2010, 12:26:58 PM
Yeah, they definitely keep getting better and better as far as paying attention to the casual players. Vanilla totally sucked nut in that regard, I'm glad they realised it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on February 18, 2010, 12:29:26 PM
I'm still a believer that doing large scale content (10 & 25 man raids) should bestow titles, achievements, mounts, pets, and different looking gear but not better.  Sadly, the hardcore masses wouldn't like the fact that casual people have access to the same level of gear. 

Having said that, wotlk is a VAST improvement over not only vanilla wow, but over about every mmo.  I like the trend that blizzard is setting for casual gameplay. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on February 18, 2010, 12:33:00 PM

(spews drink out of nose) Ok, my 4K gearscore just depressed me...


A 4987 gearscore is having the best gear you can get out of heroics and badges (including 50 frost emblems).

Good to know where that limit is...  I've made my own 2 pieces of gear from ICC patterns, and I've replaced nearly everything I can with Triumph-bought sets - helm and ring this weekend should get me to near 4200.  I could really use the hands and legs from the Frost emblem set, but man...  That's a lot of random heroics.  o_O

I'm feeling this from a different angle... sort of like "Yay, I won WoW Casual 3.3"... but now I have nothing to do.

Unlike you, I don't want to raid (never found the scripted "Boss Hokey-Pokey" all that fun)... but can't find any new content or incremental advancement for my main.

I'll be in this same place once I finish up Loremaster (shakes fist menacingly at Kalimdor).  But by then, I should have enough shards/crusader emblems to get my alts leveled up.  I'm also enjoying picking up the classic/BC dungeons and raids, myself.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 18, 2010, 12:43:07 PM
There's always http://www.wowhead.com/?achievement=2336 if you really run out of things to do.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on February 18, 2010, 12:53:08 PM
There's always http://www.wowhead.com/?achievement=2336 if you really run out of things to do.  :oh_i_see:

I never understood why I saw so many DKs killing everything that moved in Booty Bay until I found that achievement.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on February 18, 2010, 01:12:01 PM
Yeah, they definitely keep getting better and better as far as paying attention to the casual players. Vanilla totally sucked nut in that regard, I'm glad they realised it.

So much love for the alterations to the endgame. SO MUCH LOVE. I can actually log in completely randomly and feel like I did something fun and advanced my character in half an hour.

So much hate for failpugs with 49k hp tanks who fail at tanking H-HoL.

edit: seriously, between badge gear not being shitty and the LFG tool, they're perfectly captured the fact that WoW is a game, not a lifestyle.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on February 18, 2010, 01:49:19 PM
Yeah, they definitely keep getting better and better as far as paying attention to the casual players. Vanilla totally sucked nut in that regard, I'm glad they realised it.

So much love for the alterations to the endgame. SO MUCH LOVE. I can actually log in completely randomly and feel like I did something fun and advanced my character in half an hour.

So much hate for failpugs with 49k hp tanks who fail at tanking H-HoL.

edit: seriously, between badge gear not being shitty and the LFG tool, they're perfectly captured the fact that WoW is a game, not a lifestyle.

Agreed... but I think their very success has created a new problem for which they are not *quite* prepared: Lots of folks have won WoW Casual (TM) and now have nothing to do.

If they still have a persistent error, it is thinking that 5-Man necessarily leads to 10-man --> 25-man.  No thanks.  I'm done at 5-man.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on February 18, 2010, 02:16:59 PM
If they still have a persistent error, it is thinking that 5-Man necessarily leads to 10-man --> 25-man.  No thanks.  I'm done at 5-man.

I agree.  I think they should be alternate, not sequential paths. 

Though what the hell do I know?  They're the ones with the money hats.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on February 18, 2010, 02:22:14 PM
Yeah, they definitely keep getting better and better as far as paying attention to the casual players. Vanilla totally sucked nut in that regard, I'm glad they realised it.

So much love for the alterations to the endgame. SO MUCH LOVE. I can actually log in completely randomly and feel like I did something fun and advanced my character in half an hour.

So much hate for failpugs with 49k hp tanks who fail at tanking H-HoL.

edit: seriously, between badge gear not being shitty and the LFG tool, they're perfectly captured the fact that WoW is a game, not a lifestyle.

Agreed... but I think their very success has created a new problem for which they are not *quite* prepared: Lots of folks have won WoW Casual (TM) and now have nothing to do.

If they still have a persistent error, it is thinking that 5-Man necessarily leads to 10-man --> 25-man.  No thanks.  I'm done at 5-man.

People are done at 5 man. They are also done at 10 and 25 man (there are people already done with that). "Casuals" are not in a different boat than a lot of raiders, frankly. It's not a casual-specific problem. The main difference is that casuals have anything to do in the first place.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on February 18, 2010, 02:28:31 PM
And seriously guys, there IS a progression for non-raiders. You can buy freaking T9 without setting foot in a raid. That you finished it doesn't mean "it's time to raid," and there isn't really any pressure for you to do so. It means you finished, that's all. When my guild finishes 10 man content, we don't think it's time to do 25's. We just ignore the 25's, even though it has better gear and stuff. It's not for us.

I still do not get the hard on for EXACTLY THE SAME SHIT as the 25 man raiders. If you only want to do 5 mans, why do you need stuff designed to get you past 25 man raids? I'm not saying you shouldn't get your own gear progression, because you absolutely should, because the game gets boring as hell without one at the level cap, I just don't get why it has to be the same as the 25 people. They get better shit than I do in 10's? Whatever, I'm still advancing in my own path. You know? I wouldn't lose sleep if people did get the same shit in five mans as I do in 10s of course (hell, they essentially do right now, as I've been buying T9 like everyone else), I just think it's completely unnecessary.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 18, 2010, 02:34:32 PM
My end game could be braving HHOR pug groups for the offhand sword I want.   :awesome_for_real:  I'm really glad I was finally able to get non shitty gear and new weapons (YAY) without bothering to raid, but I'm starting to feel like shutting it down until a further content patch or the expansion.   There's lots and lots I can still do, but do I want to do it? Achievement whoring and mount/pet farming sounds like stuff I only want to do while I'm on conference calls.  

So, they've taken it this far, but what now? I'm hoping they can surprise/delight me the way 3.3 did for a while.

Additionally, I'm glad they've started to make some of the holiday achievements less assy, but parts of the Valentine's day stuff is buggy as hell and still rather stupid.  And Lunar festival can still kiss my ass.

edit: I'm noticing that 3 times through something is my breaking point with their content.  This is pretty good quality as it runs pretty parallel with other games in other genres.  A replay for flavor, but a third time through becomes a chore.  3 T9 geared toons has fit this bill.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on February 18, 2010, 02:36:32 PM
And seriously guys, there IS a progression for non-raiders. You can buy freaking T9 without setting foot in a raid. That you finished it doesn't mean "it's time to raid," ...

Right, it means time to quit until Cataclysm.  Doesn't strike me as something Bliz wants.  If anything we are saying they are being victimized by their own success.  What I am openly wondering is whether investing in 5-mans would actually pay bigger $$ dividends than assuming folks will go on their raiding merry-go-round.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 18, 2010, 02:39:01 PM
Pop out another 3 five man short dungeons with side grades or different stat allocations and I'm a happy man.  Get the fucking offhanders out of HHOR and put an offhand mace somewhere, damn it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 18, 2010, 02:43:09 PM
And seriously guys, there IS a progression for non-raiders. You can buy freaking T9 without setting foot in a raid. That you finished it doesn't mean "it's time to raid," ...

Right, it means time to quit until Cataclysm.  Doesn't strike me as something Bliz wants.  If anything we are saying they are being victimized by their own success.  What I am openly wondering is whether investing in 5-mans would actually pay bigger $$ dividends than assuming folks will go on their raiding merry-go-round.

I don't see how you can say they're being victimized by their own success if you are looking at what casual players have had activity-wise available to them through the history of the game. There's more for them to do at 80 than there was for them to do when 70 was the cap, and there was more for them to do at 70 than there had been at 60. There's a clear trend of it only getting better for casual players as time goes on. Casual players *always* come and go from patch to patch anyway, that's one of the things that makes them casual (as a group).

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a Sunwell-style half content patch to fill up some of that time gap before Cataclysm.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Evildrider on February 18, 2010, 02:46:30 PM
And seriously guys, there IS a progression for non-raiders. You can buy freaking T9 without setting foot in a raid. That you finished it doesn't mean "it's time to raid," ...

Right, it means time to quit until Cataclysm.  Doesn't strike me as something Bliz wants.  If anything we are saying they are being victimized by their own success.  What I am openly wondering is whether investing in 5-mans would actually pay bigger $$ dividends than assuming folks will go on their raiding merry-go-round.

I don't see how you can say they're being victimized by their own success if you are looking at what casual players have had activity-wise available to them through the history of the game. There's more for them to do at 80 than there was for them to do when 70 was the cap, and there was more for them to do at 70 than there had been at 60. There's a clear trend of it only getting better for casual players as time goes on. Casual players *always* come and go from patch to patch anyway, that's one of the things that makes them casual (as a group).

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a Sunwell-style half content patch to fill up some of that time gap before Cataclysm.

I'm pretty sure I read that there would be some slight updates but that there will be no more content patches til Cataclysm.  Cept that battleground thing coming.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on February 18, 2010, 03:15:30 PM
I don't see how you can say they're being victimized by their own success if you are looking at what casual players have had activity-wise available to them through the history of the game. There's more for them to do at 80 than there was for them to do when 70 was the cap, and there was more for them to do at 70 than there had been at 60. There's a clear trend of it only getting better for casual players as time goes on. Casual players *always* come and go from patch to patch anyway, that's one of the things that makes them casual (as a group).

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a Sunwell-style half content patch to fill up some of that time gap before Cataclysm.

In the past folks may have quit owing to the brick wall denying content to casuals; the point here is that folks (self included) will quit owing to the consumption of all (relevant) content- this is a new phenomenon that is only the result of the spectacular success of LFD and badges.

I am merely pointing out that there seems to be a Bliz assumption that now that I have my T9 stuff I'll join the ranks of raiders; instead I'll quit, because there is nothing for me to do (that I want to do) with my shiny new T9 gear and Frost Badge Cloak.

I suppose they could reduce the rewards for LFD and/or increase the badge gear costs... but then the grind factor becomes odious.  Seems to me that having something to do on parallel paths to the raiders will become a higher priority as they study the success of their LFD.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on February 18, 2010, 03:23:20 PM
Um, quitting due to the brick wall (there's nothing left for me to do!) and quitting because "I did all the casual stuff" (there's nothing left for me to do!) is ... the same thing. Why did I quit back in vanilla? I ran out of shit to do. Why did I stop playing for a little while during TBC? Because I ran out of shit to do. Why will I probably stop playing again before Cataclysm? Because I will run out of shit to do.

The problem isn't "zomg casuals need progression" anymore. It's Blizzard needs to figure out how to release their expansions in a more timely manner.


EDIT: Essentially, the only person assuming you should start raiding as your next logical step is you.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Cadaverine on February 18, 2010, 04:36:49 PM
I don't get this idea that there's nothing to do for casuals once they've gotten their badge gear from heroics.  There's a metric shitload of achievements to get, start an alt, pvp, or they could make the transition to doing 10 mans.  They could even go back with a handful of friends, and do all the old instances. If they're not at all interested in any of that, then why even play an mmo?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 18, 2010, 04:48:01 PM
I would never complain about more 5-mans, but there is a different feel to raids that you can't get in a single group I find.

Some 5-mans with hardmodes would be fucking awesome though, HoR hc is a step in the right direction, but it's still easier than some TBC heroics. If you want 5-man progression you have to accept that new instances will be fucking hard. They can drop 226/245 loot, but give us something that keeps us on our toes please.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on February 18, 2010, 04:55:34 PM

EDIT: Essentially, the only person assuming you should start raiding as your next logical step is you.

Not really sure why you are picking a fight over the one aspect not in doubt.

Of course the only thing you are expected to do when you get your T9 stuff is raid; it is a stated design goal of WoTLK.

This whole line of posts started with Draegan venting that he had done all the 5-man "casual" content and _still_ couldn't raid on his server.

If I said anything controversial, it was that I don't think raiding is as neat a Blizzard thinks it is... to which you could say I was an idiot or that I wasn't playing WoW right.  But to suggest that a player who has all the T9 badge gear and some frost gear isn't expected to raid is, well, obtuse.  It is why they put the badge gear there in the first place - it is either to raid or give me a 7 month hiatus before I work on a new set of Cataclysm greens that will be better than my T9 stuff at the end of week one.

Just to make it official:
Quote from: Ghostcrawler
Part of our design goal in Lich King was to offer raiding content for that second type of more casual player.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16904292550&postId=169019802546&sid=1#30 (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16904292550&postId=169019802546&sid=1#30)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 18, 2010, 05:04:54 PM
Sure it is an option, but I don't think the *only* reason they offered the T9 badge gear was to get people to raid. Without it you would have run out of stuff to do even longer ago, right?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: March on February 18, 2010, 05:11:03 PM
Heh, I won't sign up for "only", but I'll put money on "mostly"

Not sure that I need 4T9 to better farm dailies.

All I'm saying is that the 5-man LFD was such a smashing success that people plowed through the available content like dying men in a desert chasing after water.  I wonder if it opened a few eyes to real pent-up demand that they can exploit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 18, 2010, 05:30:41 PM
There are so many achievements and hard modes to do, to say "I'm out of things to do" means "I'm out of things that I want to do" unless you've gotten your 9800 achievement points.

I am just glad that I have friends I enjoy playing with on a regular basis, otherwise I would likely be bored and have left a while ago.  I've got 4 maxed badge gear characters and am working on a 5th.  Doing that solo would suck.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 18, 2010, 06:15:45 PM

(spews drink out of nose) Ok, my 4K gearscore just depressed me...


A 4987 gearscore is having the best gear you can get out of heroics and badges (including 50 frost emblems).

Good to know where that limit is...  I've made my own 2 pieces of gear from ICC patterns, and I've replaced nearly everything I can with Triumph-bought sets - helm and ring this weekend should get me to near 4200.  I could really use the hands and legs from the Frost emblem set, but man...  That's a lot of random heroics.  o_O

I'm feeling this from a different angle... sort of like "Yay, I won WoW Casual 3.3"... but now I have nothing to do.

Unlike you, I don't want to raid (never found the scripted "Boss Hokey-Pokey" all that fun)... but can't find any new content or incremental advancement for my main.

I'll be in this same place once I finish up Loremaster (shakes fist menacingly at Kalimdor).  But by then, I should have enough shards/crusader emblems to get my alts leveled up.  I'm also enjoying picking up the classic/BC dungeons and raids, myself.

I should of said I was too poor to afford crafted items.  My GS would jump with those.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ragnoros on February 18, 2010, 09:43:13 PM
PvP News!  :drill:

Quote from: Zarhym
We have several changes planned for Battlegrounds in the next minor content patch and would like to share them with you now. This patch will be available for public testing and we encourage you to participate, queue up and provide some feedback on these changes.

Firstly, say goodbye to Battleground Marks of Honor. We feel this currency system is a bit outdated and are getting rid of it. Any items which require these marks as currency will have their costs adjusted appropriately to remove this requirement. The quest NPCs will still be available to award players Honor for turning in leftover marks, but this is only to help players clear this expired currency.

Next, the Battleground holiday weekend will now be denoted as "Call to Arms" in the Battleground tab and Calendar. If you prefer a specific Battleground over all others, look for those words next to its name to determine whether or not you'll receive bonus Honor. The bonus awards for Call to Arms Battlegrounds have been adjusted.

Winning a Call to Arms Battleground for the first time in a day will award players with 30 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
Additional Call to Arms Battleground victories after the first win for a player that day will award them with 15 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
Losing a Call to Arms Battleground will award players with 5 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.

To bring the rate at which players obtain PvP rewards with Honor more in-line with the rate at which players obtain PvE rewards via the Dungeon Finder, we'll also be increasing the amount of Honor awarded for an Honorable Kill by 100%. In light of this, the amount of experience provided from an Honorable Kill, and the amount of Honor awarded for completing the Wintergrasp weekly quests, have been reduced by 50%.

It's important to note one thing about these 50% decreases. All Honor awarded for completing objectives in Battlegrounds and Wintergrasp is actually based on an Honorable Kill conversion rate. So if you destroy a tower in Alterac Valley for example, the Honor you're awarded is actually based on a flat number of Honorable Kills. Since Honorable Kills will now award 100% more Honor, completing such objectives will also award more Honor. This is why experience gains based on completing Battleground objectives and Honor awarded from the Wintergrasp quests are being decreased by 50%.

Now that we hopefully have your attention, we're pleased to announce the implementation of the Random Battleground system! This system will work virtually the same as the Random Dungeon option in the Dungeon Finder. Players can queue with a group of up to five players for a Random Battleground in the Battleground tab. As with the Random Dungeon option, the Battleground chosen will not be revealed until players zone into the Battleground for which they are selected. The bonus rewards for this system are identical to the updated Call to Arms bonuses.
Winning a Battleground using the Random Battleground option for the first time in a day will award players with 30 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
Winning additional Battlegrounds using the Random Battleground option after the first random win will award players with 15 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
Losing a Battleground using the Random Battleground option will award players with 5 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
When using the Random Battleground option, players will not receive additional rewards if the Battleground chosen is under the effects of the Call to Arms bonuses. In other words, the bonuses do not stack. In addition, if a player has been rewarded 30 Honorable Kills worth of bonus Honor currency from either the Random Battleground system, or the Call to Arms Battleground, he or she will be rewarded 15 Honorable Kills worth of bonus Honor currency that day for each additional victory. This applies whether the Random Battleground system is used, or the Call to Arms Battleground is chosen specifically, as a player cannot be rewarded the full amount of bonus Honor more than once per day.

All of these features and changes will be available in the next minor patch which should be hitting the public test realms in the near future. Please help us out by testing this system and providing your feedback so we can make some fine-tuning adjustments before the patch's release.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on February 18, 2010, 10:32:00 PM
By doing additional randoms you'll get, at 80, on average, 200 400 extra honor.  Are the BGs that close in terms of honor/time at this point to make that worthwhile?

I assume they'll also remove the Battleground daily like they did when they introduced the LFD system.

Edit: Forgot to factor in the doubled Honor per HK gain.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 18, 2010, 10:36:47 PM
My 10-m group finally got Putricide down on the 4th try ever tonight (a guild first).  It was late, I said "one more attempt and I'm going to bed" and we did it.  It was awesome and made us feel better than the other 10-m group that beat us to Rotface.  I'm hoping we get Putricide down on 25-m next, since we 1-shot Fester and Rot on Tuesday night.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 19, 2010, 01:30:35 AM
By doing additional randoms you'll get, at 80, on average, 200 400 extra honor.  Are the BGs that close in terms of honor/time at this point to make that worthwhile?


As they stand right now, no.


It'll still be worth it to do the one random or Call to Arms BG every day, but for pure honor farming, it's AV and will forever be AV.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Drubear on February 19, 2010, 06:03:29 AM
So from a game design perspective, are they trying to encourage in-the-field Honor Kills (doubling the rewards) and penalizing objectives and quests? Or flattening out where people migrate to do their "farming" (i.e. use the random to spread people out from WG and AV?)

For me, I work my honor point by playing WG once a week with my toons, doing the weekly quests for the 3k each. There are 5 or so of them so that's 15k a week, which is slow but steady. I don't recall getting all that much honor in-the-field (cuz, you know, I suxxor) so I see this as a nerf to my playstyle. Maybe I need to go back to AV for a few rounds to see what my current HP rate is.

As noted, 400 HP a day for doing a daily BG doesn't seem like all that much an incentive compared to just swooping in and doing the weekly WG quests. I'm still putting my PvP set together (moving up from crafteds) so actually getting kills in-the-field are incredibly few and far between.

Or is the hidden sugar/sweetner the Arena Points which are kinda acting like Emblems of Frost in this scheme?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on February 19, 2010, 06:40:36 AM
Honor Grind is still an Honor Grind.

On a side note, my guild downed Rotface and Festergut last night for the first time.  Woot.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on February 19, 2010, 09:45:03 AM
So from a game design perspective, are they trying to encourage in-the-field Honor Kills (doubling the rewards) and penalizing objectives and quests? Or flattening out where people migrate to do their "farming" (i.e. use the random to spread people out from WG and AV?)

It's mentioned in the announcement but it's worth repeating.  "All Honor awarded for completing objectives in Battlegrounds and Wintergrasp is actually based on an Honorable Kill conversion rate. So if you destroy a tower in Alterac Valley for example, the Honor you're awarded is actually based on a flat number of Honorable Kills."

The Wintergrasp quests will give the same amount of honor as before, but will be worth less relative to other sources.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 19, 2010, 03:30:41 PM
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html

Quote

World of Warcraft PTR Patch 3.3.3

The latest test realm patch notes can always be found at http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html

The latest patch notes can always be found at http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/

General

    * Copied Test Realm characters are not copied with their achievement history in order to better facilitate the character copy process.

PvP

    * The amount of Honor awarded for an Honorable Kill has been increased by 100% for characters of all levels. Given that all avenues in the game which award players with Honor do so with a calculated conversion from a specific amount of Honorable Kills, this change means that all Honor players can obtain through various means will be increased by 100%. To offset against this in two key areas, experience gains in Battlegrounds have been reduced by 50% and Honor awarded for completing each Wintergrasp weekly quest has been reduced by 50%. When pairing the Honor rewarded from Honorable Kills being increased by 100% with the 50% Honor reduction from Wintergrasp weekly quests, and 50% experience-gain reduction from completing objectives in Battlegrounds, players will notice no change in the net amount of Honor or experience awarded in either case.
    * Battlegrounds
          o The Random Battleground system has been added! Similar to the Random Dungeon system in the Dungeon Finder, players can now queue for a random Battleground.
                + The Random Battleground option can be found in the Battleground tab of the PvP frame and is only available for level 80 characters at this time.
                + If this option is selected, players may not queue for specific Battlegrounds and a random Battleground simultaneously.
                + Similar to the Random Dungeon system, players will not know for which Battleground they are chosen when selected from the queue until they zone into the Battleground.
                + The Random Battleground option will only allow a group size of 5 players to queue together.
                + Bonus rewards will be offered for choosing the Random Battleground option.
                      # Winning a Battleground using the Random Battleground option for the first time in a day will award players with 30 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency and 25 Arena points.
                      # Winning additional Battlegrounds using the Random Battleground option after the first random win will award players with 15 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
                      # Losing a Battleground using the Random Battleground option will award players with 5 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
          o Daily Battleground quests have been removed in place of the Random Battleground option.
          o Battlegrounds will no longer award Marks of Honor.
                + Players with existing Marks of Honor can still turn them in to their respective faction's quest givers, including individual marks for those who may have more marks for one Battleground than another.
                + Items which previously required Marks of Honor will have their costs adjusted to remove these requirements.
          o Whenever a Battleground has the holiday bonus active, it will now be referred to as "Call to Arms" in the Battleground tab and Calendar. In addition, Call to Arms Battleground Honor rewards have been changed.
                + Choosing a specific Battleground with the Call to Arms bonus active will yield the exact same rewards as when choosing the Random Battleground option.
                      # Winning a Call to Arms Battleground for the first time in a day will award players with 30 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency and 25 Arena points.
                      # Additional Call to Arms Battleground victories after the first win for a player that day will award them with 15 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
                      # Losing a Call to Arms Battleground will award players with 5 Honorable Kills worth of additional Honor currency.
                + When using the Random Battleground option, players will not receive additional rewards if the Battleground chosen under the Call to Arms bonuses. In addition, the rewards for the first victory of the day cannot be earned more than once, regardless of whether or not it is obtained from the Random Battleground system or the Call to Arms Battleground.
    * Wintergrasp
          o The internal balance system now only changes when a faction achieves 2 consecutive defenses after an initial capture of Wintergrasp, up from 1. More details can be found on our PvP forum.

Dungeons & Raids

    * Culling of Stratholme
          o Players may now skip the initial introduction dialog to this dungeon once they have completed it at least once.

Classes: General

    * Several raid buffs have had their ranges increased to 100 yards, up from 45 yards, to prevent select buffs from repeatedly getting applied and removed during highly mobile encounters. Some buffs, such as paladin auras, totems, shouts and Blood Pact are intentionally meant to have shorter ranges and remain unchanged.

Death Knights

    * Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.
    * Rune of Razorice: Now stacks 5 stacks of 2% Frost Vulnerability instead of 10 stacks of 1% Frost Vulnerability. Proc chance changed to 100%.
    * Talents
          o Blood
                + Abomination's Might: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc on certain strikes. Rank 1 is 5% attack power and Rank 2 is 10% attack power. The self strength buff remains unchanged.
                + Will of the Necropolis: There is no longer a cooldown on the frequency at which this talent can be activated. In addition, this ability can now also be triggered by damage which deals less than 5% of your health.
          o Frost
                + Endless Winter: No longer causes Frost Fever to be applied by Chains of Ice, but instead grants 2/4% strength. The previous functionality of this talent can now be attained via the Glyph of Chains of Ice.
                + Improved Icy Talons: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc. The self haste buff remains unchanged.
                + Nerves of Cold Steel: Now increases off-hand damage by 8/16/25%, up from 5/10/15%.
                + Unbreakable Armor: The amount of strength granted is now 20%, up from 10%.
          o Unholy
                + Scourge Strike: Now deals 70% weapon damage, plus 12% of physical damage done as shadow damage for each of the death knight's diseases on the target. The net result should be larger strikes with no diseases present, while maximum damage with all diseases applied to the target should stay the same.

Hunters

    * Talents
          o Beast Mastery
                + Ferocious Inspiration: This ability is now an aura and provides 1/2/3% damage to all party or raid members within 100 yards.

Mages

    * Frostbolt: Spell power scaling on this spell has been increased by approximately 5%.
    * Talents
          o Arcane
                + Arcane Empowerment: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc off of critical strikes. The self damage buff remains unchanged.
                + Incanter's Absorption: This talent now only grants additional spell power when damage is absorbed by Mana Shield, Frost Ward, Fire Ward, or Ice Barrier. The limit of 5% of the mage's health on the spell power buff has been removed.
          o Fire
                + Burning Soul: Threat reduction is now 10/20%, up from 5/10%.
          o Frost
                + Brain Freeze: This talent now allows your next Fireball or Frostfire Bolt to be instant and cost no mana. There is a small internal cooldown to keep the Frostfire Bolt from immediately triggering Brain Freeze again.

Priests

    * Talents
          o Discipline
                + Renewed Hope: now has a 60-second duration, up from 20 seconds, but a 20-second cooldown.

Rogues

    * Rupture: The damage-over-time component of this ability can now produce critical strikes.
    * Talents
          o Subtlety
                + Filthy Tricks: Now Reduces the cooldown by 5/10 seconds and energy cost by 5/10 of Tricks of the Trade, Distract and Shadowstep abilities, and reduces the cooldown of Preparation by 1.5/3 minutes.
                + Ghostly Strike: If the rogue has a dagger equipped, this ability now deals 180% weapon damage instead of 125%.
                + Hemorrhage: If the rogue has a dagger equipped, this ability now deals 160% weapon damage instead of 110%.
                + Slaughter from the Shadows: Now adds 1/2/3/4/5% damage to all attacks in addition to its current effects.
                + Waylay: The debuff from this talent can now be caused by Backstab in addition to Ambush.

Shaman

    * Flame Shock: The damage-over-time component of this ability can now produce critical strikes and is affected by spell haste.
    * Talents
          o Elemental Combat
                + Elemental Oath: This ability is now always on as a passive aura.
          o Enhancement
                + Unleashed Rage: This ability is now always on as a passive aura.

Warlocks

    * Immolate: The damage-over-time component of this spell can now produce critical strikes.
    * Talents
          o Demonology
                + Demonic Pact: This effect now has a 45-second duration, up from 12 seconds, and a 20-second internal cooldown.

Warriors

    * Revenge: Damage done by this ability (base and scaling) increased by 50%.
    * Talents
          o Fury
                + Rampage: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc from critical strikes.

Items

    * Frozo the Renowned has moved into the Dalaran Magus Commerce Exchange and will be trading your Frozen Orbs for various other trade goods.
    * Glyphs
          o Death Knights
                + Glyph of Chains of Ice: Now causes Chains of Ice to apply Frost Fever instead of dealing damage.
                + Glyph of Disease: When this glyph causes Frost Fever to be refreshed, it will now also trigger a refresh of Icy Talons.
          o Mages
                + Glyph of Fireball: No longer increases critical strike chance of Fireball. Instead, it now reduces the cast time of Fireball by 0.15 seconds.
    * Mechanostriders: Summoning any of these mounts is now perfectly mechanical-sounding!

Professions

    * Runed Orbs: Recipes which require this item have had their material requirements significantly reduced.
    * Fishing
          o The "Monsterbelly Appetite" daily fishing quest has changed so it now takes place outside the Violet Hold in Dalaran. The quest still requires a Severed Arm and has been renamed to "Disarmed!"
    * Inscription
          o Most recipes that required 2 inks now only require 1.
    * Mining
          o Titansteel Bar: Creating this item no longer results in a cooldown.
    * Tailoring
          o Glacial Bag: Creating this item now invokes a 7-day cooldown.
          o The cooldown and location requirements have been removed from creating Moonshroud, Spellweave and Ebonweave.

Quests

    * Many quests which require vehicles have had their vehicle mechanics updated and improved in the interest of fun.

User Interface

    * All Alert pop-ups now have new and fresh Alert icons.
    * Auction House
          o If the Auction House on a realm is unavailable for any reason, an alert will pop up informing players who attempt to access it.
          o Players can now Right-Click to place an item in the Auction frame.
          o Entire stacks of a specific item type can be placed in the Auction frame and several options have been added for choosing how to list auctions.
                + Stack Size: If a stack of items has been added to the Auction frame, players can select the size of the stack they wish to sell. If an invalid stack size is entered (i.e. a stack of 21 Saronite Ore), the Create Auction button will be grayed out.
                + Number of Stacks: In addition to selecting the size of a stack, players can select how many stacks of an item they wish to sell (i.e. if a player has a total of 43 Saronite Ore in the Auction frame, they can choose to list 2 stacks of 20, 4 stacks of 10, 8 stacks of 5, 43 stacks of 1, etc. If the number and amount of stacks listed results in a remainder, the left-over items will be placed back in the player's bags automatically).
                + Stack Size and Number of Stacks are linked mathematically so that altering the variables of one may automatically calculate the amount of the other (i.e. if a player puts 20 in the Stack Size field and 43 Saronite Ore are in the Auction frame, the Number of Stacks field will change to 2 by default. If a player only wishes to sell one stack of 20 Saronite Ore, the Number of Stacks field can be manually changed to 1).
                + Price: Players can now choose to input the price of an item Per Stack or Per Item by selecting either option from a pull-down. If Per Item is selected and a player is selling a stack of that item, the Auction House will multiply the selected Per Item price by the amount of that item in the stack. If Per Stack is selected, the player can enter the total price he or she wishes to charge for each stack of that item being listed.
                + Auction Post Completion Bar: If multiple items or stacks of items are being listed at once by a player, a Posting completion bar will appear showing the total progress of each individual auction being listed once the Create Auction button is selected. The greater the number of individual listings being made in a single press of the Create Auction button, the longer this process will take. Players can still browse the Auction House while the Posting completion bar is in progress, but moving around will interrupt the progress, similar to moving while attempting to create multiple bandages with First Aid. Just as with creating bandages, auctions that were completed prior to the character moving or otherwise canceling the actions will successfully be listed.
    * Dungeon Finder
          o The Deserter debuff given to players who leave a dungeon prematurely when queuing via the Random Dungeon option has been increased to 30 minutes, up from 15 minutes. The cooldown for using the Random Dungeon option remains 15 minutes.
          o The Random Dungeon cooldown is no longer displayed as a debuff. Instead, players will see the cooldown time remaining displayed in the Dungeon Finder window when Random Dungeon or Random Heroic Dungeon is selected from the pull-down.
          o If a player in your party has the Deserter debuff, or is on cooldown from the Random Dungeon option, his or her character name will be displayed in the Dungeon Finder window listed as "On Cooldown," preventing the group from queuing.
          o Anyone in a dungeon party can now re-queue their group for a dungeon, as players will still be prompted whether or not to accept their chosen role.
          o Players who use the Vote Kick option will now be prompted to provide a reason for kicking a party member. This reason will be presented to everyone in the party except for the person voted to be kicked.
          o When joining as a group, more generous level requirements will be used instead of Random Dungeon level requirements so that players of different levels joining together will be eligible for a greater number of dungeons.
          o World Event bosses (such as Ahune for the Fire Festival) will now be accessible through the Dungeon Finder. Players must use the Dungeon Finder to access these bosses.
          o Parties randomly created via the Dungeon Finder will always be arranged in the party interface from top to bottom in the following order: tank, healer, damage, damage, damage.
          o If a random party is created via the Dungeon Finder and a player cannot roll Need on an item, a reason will now be provided.
    * Authenticator Frame: If a player has a Battle.net Authenticator attached to his or her account and selects Remember Account Name at the login screen, the next time that player logs into World of Warcraft, a field to input the Authenticator code will be displayed below the password field.
    * The World Map will now provide an option to display different levels of a multi-layered dungeon, zone, or city (i.e. players can view the map of the Dalaran Sewers without having to be in that location).
    * Quest Tracking Feature
          o The Quest Tracking Objectives Frame can now be widened via the Interface Options menu.
          o The short description for a tracked quest is now displayed on the Map in the quest pane.
          o Quest items in a player's inventory which begin quests now each have an exclamation point overlaid on their icons to make them more easily identifiable.
          o If a players selects Track Low Level Quests, the quest objectives will no longer appear dim on the Map, nor will the exclamation points appear dim over NPC heads or on the Mini-Map.
          o Objectives Frame
                + The Objectives Frame will now list the number of quests displayed at the top. In addition, players can now click on the word "Objectives" at the top of the Objectives Frame for a list of sorting and filtering options which will determine how quests are ordered. Any quests or achievements filtered or sorted out of the Objectives Frame are still being tracked and are simply hidden in this frame.
                      # Sorting
                            * Sort by most difficult quests.
                            * Sort by least difficult quests.
                            * Sort by quests closest in proximity to the player (this will automatically update as players travel around).
                            * Manual sorting: This allows players to Right-Click on each quest name in the Objectives Frame and determine in what order they should be placed.
                      # Filtering
                            * Toggle achievement tracking.
                            * Toggle completed quest tracking.
                            * Toggle tracking quest objectives in other zones.
                + Players can now Shift + Click on a quest objective or check the Track Quest box on the Map to track a quest in the Objectives Frame.
    * For additional notes on Lua and XML changes please visit the UI & Macros forum.

Bug Fixes

    * When speaking to an NPC for which a player has 2 or more quests and not all of them are complete, the incomplete quests will now correctly show as a gray question marks in the dialog box. In addition, repeatable quests will be properly colored as blue exclamation points or question marks in the dialog box for NPCs with multiple quests available, or for which the player has multiple quests in progress or completed.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on February 19, 2010, 03:58:31 PM
Warriors

    * Revenge: Damage done by this ability (base and scaling) increased by 50%.

 :awesome_for_real:

    * Mining
          o Titansteel Bar: Creating this item no longer results in a cooldown.

Have some (nearly) free Titansteel plate armor when you hit 80...

    * Dungeon Finder
          o The Deserter debuff given to players who leave a dungeon prematurely when queuing via the Random Dungeon option has been increased to 30 minutes, up from 15 minutes. The cooldown for using the Random Dungeon option remains 15 minutes.

Mixed feelings - more penalty to casually quit, more penalty to justifiably leave.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 19, 2010, 04:27:23 PM
    * Dungeon Finder
          o The Deserter debuff given to players who leave a dungeon prematurely when queuing via the Random Dungeon option has been increased to 30 minutes, up from 15 minutes. The cooldown for using the Random Dungeon option remains 15 minutes.

          o Our Oculus bribe bag was a failure. If this new penalty doesn't work, we're just gonna come to your house and make you do it at gunpoint.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 19, 2010, 04:41:36 PM
Mages
    * Talents
          o Arcane
                + Incanter's Absorption: This talent now only grants additional spell power when damage is absorbed by Mana Shield, Frost Ward, Fire Ward, or Ice Barrier. The limit of 5% of the mage's health on the spell power buff has been removed.
This kind of gives me mixed feelings.  I use this and enjoy it, but everyone says the points are better spent elsewhere.  So I guess I can recover them now and be like everyone else =P


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on February 19, 2010, 04:46:05 PM
   * Dungeon Finder
          o The Deserter debuff given to players who leave a dungeon prematurely when queuing via the Random Dungeon option has been increased to 30 minutes, up from 15 minutes. The cooldown for using the Random Dungeon option remains 15 minutes.

          o Our Oculus bribe bag was a failure. If this new penalty doesn't work, we're just gonna come to your house and make you do it at gunpoint.

I'm down with that. Ditching Oculus is retarded. It's a 15 minute instance, tops. The only reason it takes longer is because people keep ditching it when they zone in and make those with a mental constitution stronger than a beached jellyfish wait for the next member.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 19, 2010, 04:49:31 PM
    * Dungeon Finder
          o The Deserter debuff given to players who leave a dungeon prematurely when queuing via the Random Dungeon option has been increased to 30 minutes, up from 15 minutes. The cooldown for using the Random Dungeon option remains 15 minutes.

          o Our Oculus bribe bag was a failure. If this new penalty doesn't work, we're just gonna come to your house and make you do it at gunpoint.
I find it tends to be CoStrat (although hopefully this patch will fix that as well), Halls of Stone and bloody Old Kingdom that people quit out of now more than Oculus.

Mainly because one of the mandatory HoS bosses is terrible, the other still eats pugs from time to time and nobody wantd to do the other bosses. OK? OK is just flat out annoying. It's the Auchenai Crypts of WotLK.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 19, 2010, 04:55:43 PM
I'm down with that. Ditching Oculus is retarded. It's a 15 minute instance, tops. The only reason it takes longer is because people keep ditching it when they zone in and make those with a mental constitution stronger than a beached jellyfish wait for the next member.

Have fun the first time your tank decides he'd rather pick his nose in Dalaran for 15 minutes and wait for the vote kick. Oculus is fucking garbage and their is nothing in Blizzard's arsenal that would compel me to do it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Mattemeo on February 19, 2010, 05:05:35 PM
It's quick. It's easy. There's a bunch of achievements. There's a free bag of gems and emblems at the end. The only thing that ruins Oculus are those that ditch it on zone-in. Now, by the time that Tank's done waiting in Dalaran, I've finished an instance and am several emblems up and already queing again. A winner is me? Yep.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 19, 2010, 05:09:31 PM
    * Dungeon Finder
          o The Deserter debuff given to players who leave a dungeon prematurely when queuing via the Random Dungeon option has been increased to 30 minutes, up from 15 minutes. The cooldown for using the Random Dungeon option remains 15 minutes.

          o Our Oculus bribe bag was a failure. If this new penalty doesn't work, we're just gonna come to your house and make you do it at gunpoint.

People actually stay in oculus now. it's halls of stone that i quit every single time. fuck you brann


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on February 19, 2010, 05:19:39 PM
It's quick. It's easy. There's a bunch of achievements.
Seriously.  I'm in and out in 12 minutes.  I don't quit any instance I come across, but I sure roll my eyes at getting OK yet again.  I don't understand the hate for HoS, it's a cakewalk as long as people are smart enough to stay out of the laser beam and the tank has enough of a pulse to pick up the adds.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 19, 2010, 05:24:29 PM
Don't care. If they added "play tic-tac-toe for 15 minutes and get free badges and some worthless gems and shit" as a random instance, I'd quit that too. Vehicles blow. I've already canceled again anyway.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 19, 2010, 05:36:51 PM
Time to start hoarding Frozen Orbs

Also Oculus is a joke now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Gobbeldygook on February 19, 2010, 06:21:15 PM
Not in the notes: There is no longer any cooldown on votekicking people.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 19, 2010, 06:46:33 PM
Sweet. So now everyone will just go "kick plz" and nobody will ever get a deserter debuff at all.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Evildrider on February 19, 2010, 06:48:05 PM
Time to start hoarding Frozen Orbs

Also Oculus is a joke now.

Did I miss the note about Frozen Orbs?  Cuz umm.. i'm pretty sure everyone has at least 2-3 stacks of those by now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Triforcer on February 19, 2010, 06:53:11 PM
What Blizz should do is give everyone five "idiot demerits" to hand out.  The demerits regenerate at one per day for the giver, and you can only have one of your demerits sticking to any specific person.  If a person gets a demerit, it takes two days for it to wear off.

If someone gets ten idiot demerits put on them (before the oldest one call fall off after two days from when it was put on), their character name changes to Donkey Raping Shit Eater and their character polymorphs into a literal jackass.  They can't use any of their skills and if they try to /shout, /tell, /whisper etc. the recipient only hears "I have no fucking skill and am a huge fucking jackass.  NEVER GROUP WITH ME EVER."  This state persists for 48 real life hours.  


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on February 19, 2010, 11:21:43 PM
I think this is more of a hit to people who zone in, say queue for a random, zone in, and query, "Am I the replacement healer?  In Heroic Old Kingdom?  I am?  Okay then, I'll be damned if I'm getting a repair bill because you fuckers fail at whatever it was you failed at."  I'm calling out HOK specifically, because there are a couple of places where careless tanks can get themselves or healers killed, which of course wipes the whole damn group.  That, and it's happened a couple of times that I've been dropped into an HOK group where the dps were woefully undergeared, and they have no clue about killing guardians, or interrupting spell flingers, or not standing in flamestrike, or what have you.

As for H Oc, I'm of two minds about it.  I'll just stick around for it, because the instance is so damned easy now (HOK is now one of the more difficult instances remaining, hilariously enough, because of the various crazy mechanics the trash has) and it's not uncommon to clear the place in 15 minutes.  On the other hand, I also am not entirely happy about the instance, because I don't recall the option GREEN FUCKING DRAKE when I created my character, and I understand why people get irritated when they're shoved into a vehicle.

Anyway, I'm not pleased about this, no not at all.  The most likely result is tanks and healers will either 1.  figure out the mechanics of the debuff, and wait for the trigger to not get the debuff, or 2.  They'll stop running randoms as much, and run with guildmates instead.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on February 20, 2010, 12:40:40 AM
Coming into a Random Heroic as a replacement healer or tank rocks (at least on my Priest and Paladin respectively), especially if I'm just doing it for the Frost Emblems.

As for the Oculus hate (above some "I HATE VEHICLES" types like WUA), I just don't get it.  The only "vehicle" portions are killing a few drakes in between platforms, moving between platforms, and the last boss.  It's been said before, but the only thing that makes Oculus a pain in the ass is the initial zone-in waiting for people to bail.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 20, 2010, 12:44:20 AM
Hell I've been known to drop HTOC just to avoid the jousting. I mostly PVP, dungeons just aren't a big enough priority for me to suck it up through ones I don't like. They could make the debuff an hour and I'd just drop Oculus or whatever and go farm honor.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on February 20, 2010, 02:01:52 AM
Increasingly punitive measures are never going to work, and it feels very contrary to the entire Blizzard ethos with WoW, the essence of which has been to remove the hammering-nails-into-your-dick aspect of MMORPGs.

If they remove Oculus from the rotation then people will have another instance they don't like. If they increase the "punishment" for ditching even more then it won't make any difference to those who want to leave a dungeon because they don't like it - as WUA illustrates they'll just go play another character or do something else until the debuff is gone. And why should people be *forced* to do things they don't want to do in-game? It's a game, it's supposed to be fun ffs.

Why not just remove the random element from the random dungeon finder? Just make the 1st heroic you do in the day give you 2 Frosties regardless of whether you choose your dungeon or not. So people won't run Oculus or HoS or CoS so often. So what? Who cares? The instance load balancing surely doesn't mean that there's limited ability to run more of one specific dungeon than another?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 20, 2010, 02:15:34 AM
Time to start hoarding Frozen Orbs

Also Oculus is a joke now.

Did I miss the note about Frozen Orbs?  Cuz umm.. i'm pretty sure everyone has at least 2-3 stacks of those by now.
There's a vendor going into Dalaran that will sell "tradeskill items" in exchange for frozen orbs.

Don't care. If they added "play tic-tac-toe for 15 minutes and get free badges and some worthless gems and shit" as a random instance, I'd quit that too. Vehicles blow. I've already canceled again anyway.

Quote
Quests

    * Many quests which require vehicles have had their vehicle mechanics updated and improved in the interest of fun.

 :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on February 20, 2010, 02:21:38 AM
The whole point of Random Queues is to get people who just want to farm badges/honor in the same pool as people who want to do a specific (or specific group of) dungeon/battleground.

For example, my Paladin's last Elder was in DTK.  So, I queued up for a Heroic DTK and instead of being instant it took a minute or so to get a group.  If everyone ran AN once a day, that simply wouldn't have happened.

In the case of people who hate one or two dungeons, they can either queue up for all dungeons except those and not get the 2 Badges + Gold or eat the penalty if the LFD system comes up snake eyes every once in a while.  The game's not forcing anyone to do anything, but if you're setting up an incentive structure for your entire population of 80s, sometimes people are going to get screwed.

Edit: Grammar.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on February 20, 2010, 02:27:39 AM
Fair enough, good point about making it easier (possible) to do specifics in the same pool as the badges per hour crowd.

In which case I support the change to 30 mins deserter debuff. That's enough of a disincentive to make people slightly more reluctant to ditch without good reason (and I consider "I fucking hate this place" as a perfectly good reason tbh) without overly punishing people with such a good reason.

The system is never going to be perfect, it involves humans, but it's still a bazillion times better than what we had before 3.3.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 20, 2010, 02:50:25 AM
Time to start hoarding Frozen Orbs

Also Oculus is a joke now.

Did I miss the note about Frozen Orbs?  Cuz umm.. i'm pretty sure everyone has at least 2-3 stacks of those by now.

Quote
I'm sure some of you noticed this in the 3.3.3 PTR patch notes:

    * Frozo the Renowned has moved into the Dalaran Magus Commerce Exchange and will be trading your Frozen Orbs for various other trade goods.


For those curious, here are the items for which you can trade your Frozen Orbs to Frozo. These each cost 1 Frozen Orb unless noted otherwise in parentheses:

    * Crusader Orb (6)
    * Runed Orb (4)
    * Eternal Fire
    * Eternal Earth
    * Eternal Water
    * Eternal Air
    * Eternal Life
    * Eternal Shadow
    * Frost Lotus
    * Pattern: Frosty Flying Carpet [Tailors Only] (6)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on February 20, 2010, 02:59:52 AM
Awesome, I've got 80 of the bloody things stored up in the guild bank. Will help to bring the prices down on a lot of crafted stuff.

And a new flying carpet for tailors? Awesome again  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on February 20, 2010, 08:08:04 AM
I understand that forcing people to queue for a Random helps people get specifics done easier, but allowing us the option to opt out of a few dungeons while queuing for randoms would be a big help.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Drubear on February 20, 2010, 08:15:08 AM
Not sure totally what the problem they're trying to solve: if they just want more people doing Oculus, just double the Triumphs you get from each boss or have the final drop a Frost too. Maybe that would make it too good and thereby annoy someone else?

I can just see some dev/designer somewhere stomping his/her feet (Dev QQ?) that people don't like their dungeon and demand MAKE THE REWARDS BETTAH!1!

YouTube vids: "LEAVE ... (sniff) ... OCULUS ... (sniff) ... ALONE!!!"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on February 20, 2010, 10:51:57 AM
I still think Oculus is fun.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 20, 2010, 11:45:51 AM
I understand that forcing people to queue for a Random helps people get specifics done easier, but allowing us the option to opt out of a few dungeons while queuing for randoms would be a big help.

This.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on February 20, 2010, 12:05:23 PM
Except it's still contrary to the point of random LFG, because everyone will simply un-queue everything they don't like unless they need it, leaving the ones that do need it in the lurch.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on February 20, 2010, 12:33:56 PM
On a side note, could the prince look any more like a douchebag now?

(http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2010/february/anduin.jpg)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 20, 2010, 12:41:00 PM
He is truly his father's son.
Poor sod.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on February 20, 2010, 12:59:34 PM
They really are making some spectacularly ugly characters/redesigns these days.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on February 20, 2010, 03:44:26 PM
Except it's still contrary to the point of random LFG, because everyone will simply un-queue everything they don't like unless they need it, leaving the ones that do need it in the lurch.

You only let people blacklist one or two dungeons. Not everyone is going to blacklist the same ones. Let the retards who just have to specific-queue for Oculus run it with the people who hate Halls of Stone more. I mean fuck, battlegrounds take anywhere from 20 to 80 people (two sides, remember) and I've been getting into those just fine for years without a random function.

Oh, except Isle of Conquest. There are between zero and one of those running on my battlegroup at any given hour. (Because everyone just LOVES vehicles!) I guess random BG queues will help with that. Of course without marks of honor to farm, random-queuers will be the only people in there.

Seriously, this is someone at Blizzard butthurt that people would rather /dance in Dalaran for 15 minutes than do a couple of their shittier dungeons, and farm half-decade old AV rather than shoot themselves out of catapults and all that other silly shit they worked so hard on for IoC. They're usually immune to this sort of pettiness, but not always. That whole arena/esports thing was SOMEONE'S baby, and look how long it's taken for them to give up on that.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 20, 2010, 04:09:54 PM
To be fair, the problem with Conquest isn't the actual vehicles, but WoW interpretation of a siege. If everyone was just able to DPS down the door normally, it would still be unpopular, since the keeps themselves aren't designed with any kind of practical defense in mind.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on February 21, 2010, 12:00:16 AM
Old content is old content. It's even dumber when it's bad old content. I don't mind farming dire maul or strat to this very day. Why? Because I can solo it and make some money while having a good time relaxing. Time away from the forced runs, the forced shit, and the forced achievement gearscoring morons.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on February 21, 2010, 09:57:36 AM
I think the primary dungeon everyone hates to pieces now is CoS, and way more so than Oculus. None of the pubtards drop oculus anymore when I get into one, but the last 6-7 times I've gotten CoS since the oculus bribe bag+dungeon streamlining patch I've come in and have had the group beg me not to drop.  I actually like CoS so I never do, but I guess 5 minutes of RP is just too much for people to bear.

I know people whine about OK but I never have anyone drop that. We just skip Amanitar and Jedoga. And now we don't even skip Jedoga anymore since it takes 10 seconds to get to her. This is coming from a warrior tank though; I can negate the most annoying trash there with spell reflect. The spell flingers will literally instagib themselves if I reflect their big nuke.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 21, 2010, 02:54:24 PM
Had our healer drop from Oculus yesterday, but things went fine after that.  Was a clean run, only one death on the severely undergeared fury warrior I duo with.  Their first time through ever, my first time as melee.  Maybe we're strange, but we both like that place.

OK gave us some serious trouble last time through.  Jedoga, is that the lady who picks out a volunteer?  Whomever, we started fighting her then suddenly we get swarmed by the volunteers and die very quickly.  We thought maybe it was positioning, but it happened again.  Are you supposed to leave her alone until they take up positions?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on February 21, 2010, 03:00:37 PM
I haven't figured out what causes that but I've seen it happen once or twice. I think it is just a bug.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on February 21, 2010, 03:21:54 PM
Had our healer drop from Oculus yesterday, but things went fine after that.  Was a clean run, only one death on the severely undergeared fury warrior I duo with.  Their first time through ever, my first time as melee.  Maybe we're strange, but we both like that place.

OK gave us some serious trouble last time through.  Jedoga, is that the lady who picks out a volunteer?  Whomever, we started fighting her then suddenly we get swarmed by the volunteers and die very quickly.  We thought maybe it was positioning, but it happened again.  Are you supposed to leave her alone until they take up positions?

Do you mean clearing them out at the start? As far as I know that's always been part of the fight, although that whole platform is really really buggy in terms of aggro (hey pulling the whole of the trash from the far side of the pool for no apparent reason).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on February 21, 2010, 03:58:03 PM
I think the primary dungeon everyone hates to pieces now is CoS, and way more so than Oculus. None of the pubtards drop oculus anymore when I get into one, but the last 6-7 times I've gotten CoS since the oculus bribe bag+dungeon streamlining patch I've come in and have had the group beg me not to drop.  I actually like CoS so I never do, but I guess 5 minutes of RP is just too much for people to bear.
Yeah, but CoS is getting a "Cut to the chase" option in 3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3 (recurring, of course)

Quote
I know people whine about OK but I never have anyone drop that. We just skip Amanitar and Jedoga. And now we don't even skip Jedoga anymore since it takes 10 seconds to get to her. This is coming from a warrior tank though; I can negate the most annoying trash there with spell reflect. The spell flingers will literally instagib themselves if I reflect their big nuke.
It is better than it was since that nuke got a longer cast time and the trash before the temple got thinned out. It's still not exactly great, though, and nobody ever wants to do mushroom-boss.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 21, 2010, 06:33:56 PM
Do you mean clearing them out at the start? As far as I know that's always been part of the fight, although that whole platform is really really buggy in terms of aggro (hey pulling the whole of the trash from the far side of the pool for no apparent reason).
No.  We cleared the trash, she floats down, and then I hit her.  Suddenly all the volunteers come rushing up the stairs and lay waste to everyone.  They hadn't taken their positions and bubbled up yet.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 21, 2010, 07:11:00 PM
I've seen that happen before, it's pretty funny.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on February 21, 2010, 07:32:55 PM
It was my first wipe as a tank.  My spotless record has been ruined by a bug.  Twice, since they did it when we tried again.  :cry2:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on February 21, 2010, 10:17:54 PM
*deleted wrong thread.. although this is starting to look like the bad groups thread*


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on February 23, 2010, 05:28:35 PM
So I wasn't going crazy, this thread did disappear!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on March 09, 2010, 05:54:35 AM
Background downloader is handing out part of 3.3.3...  Doesn't look like it's going live today, though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 11, 2010, 07:44:09 AM
They nerfed Bladestorm and the warriors have been VOMITING posts non-stop ever since.  :awesome_for_real:

You can Disarm a warrior during Bladestorm now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on March 11, 2010, 08:58:27 AM
They nerfed Bladestorm and the warriors have been VOMITING posts non-stop ever since.  :awesome_for_real:

You can Disarm a warrior during Bladestorm now.

THE HORROR

Did seal of lolcleavelol get nerfed for tanking?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 11, 2010, 11:29:28 AM
No, but thunderclap got a small tweak or something. Should crit for more?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 11, 2010, 11:31:43 AM
Thunderclap is now no longer treated as a spell, but rather as a ranged attack. That means it will crit 200% instead of 150%, and you only need 8% hit to cap it out. Shockwave already worked like that.

Now if they'd just make that change to our taunt...

The bladestorm change makes me laugh. "We need to add a counter to warriors. Let's make it.... WARRIORS!" /high5s around the meeting table

(And yes I know rogues can dismantle too.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 11, 2010, 11:44:48 AM
The biggest Slap in the Face is to shadowpriests, their disarm won't work on bladestorm since the SP disarm needs the fear effect to land first.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on March 12, 2010, 12:05:30 AM
The biggest Slap in the Face is to shadowpriests, their disarm won't work on bladestorm since the SP disarm needs the fear effect to land first.
I imagine they will just fix it so that the disarm component will work on targets that are immune to fear (much the same way that Druid Bash / Paladin Hammer will still interupt spellcasts on targets that are immune to stun effects)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 12, 2010, 07:41:03 AM
SPriests currently can't disarm a Beast hunter that is enraged, so I'm not so sure.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Wolf on March 12, 2010, 08:41:52 AM
if you need to throw a PH on a warrior for the disarm component of the spell, you should have done it before he starts swirling around anyway. I consider it a much bigger slap in the face that my silence is on a 45s cooldown and is only 5s, I can't cast out of dispersion and I have no sensible form of control. Says the extremely experienced _at least_ 1300 rating shadow priest ;)



Title: 3.3.3 Is Live
Post by: Hutch on March 23, 2010, 11:36:13 AM
3.3.3 Patch Notes (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/#3.3.3)

Highlights:
- BGs no longer award marks of honor. Your marks can be turned in for honor, according to mmo-champion.
- Culling of Stratholme: talk to Chromie at the start, to skip past the RP and straight to the scourge waves!
- Frost Orbs can now be exchanged at a vendor in Dalaran for various items.
- Fishing daily: Monsterbelly Appetite is being modified to require much less travel. I know I was skipping that quest, I wonder how many other people were.
- Random dungeons: deserter debuff increased to 30 min.
- Logging in: if you have an Authenticator, you can type in the number on the same screen as the password now, i.e. no more pop-up window





Title: Re: 3.3.3 Is Live
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2010, 12:34:33 PM
- Fishing daily: Monsterbelly Appetite is being modified to require much less travel. I know I was skipping that quest, I wonder how many other people were.

No further than the Ghostfish or Blood Frenzy quests. The only daily I skip is the damn jousting thing in front of Icecrown. I hate that one with a firey passion.


Title: Re: 3.3.3 Is Live
Post by: SurfD on March 23, 2010, 12:36:56 PM
- Fishing daily: Monsterbelly Appetite is being modified to require much less travel. I know I was skipping that quest, I wonder how many other people were.

No further than the Ghostfish or Blood Frenzy quests. The only daily I skip is the damn jousting thing in front of Icecrown. I hate that one with a firey passion.
Quests

    * Many quests which require vehicles have had their vehicle mechanics updated and improved in the interest of fun.

Maybe give it one more try and see if it was one of the ones tweaked?


Title: Re: 3.3.3 Is Live
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 23, 2010, 02:35:03 PM
Quests

    * Many quests which require vehicles have had their vehicle mechanics updated and improved in the interest of fun.

Maybe give it one more try and see if it was one of the ones tweaked?

Meh. Maybe. I have everything I want from the badges, and there's plenty other dailes to do.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 23, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
Honor change is very nice, pretty much tripled the intake now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: ezrast on March 23, 2010, 06:24:26 PM
Except to get it all you're forced to play the shitty vehicle-based BGs (substitute whichever ones you hate the most). And they removed the ability to see which BGs are currently popular, and the random queues so far haven't been a whole lot better than what the specific queues were before.

I'm going to try just pretending random BG doesn't exist and only queuing for AV/AB like normal, but I suspect that that will be futile since everyone else will be in random and so the formerly popular BGs won't pop nearly as often as they used to (edit: I was right). I really don't like any of the changes that have been made to BG PvP since 3.0.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on March 23, 2010, 06:44:02 PM
CoS "skip ahead" feature does not seem to require that all group members have done the quest.  Or at least a couple of people said they hadn't been there before "on that toon."

Quest items seem to have a gold square around them now in your inventory.

I like the Revenge change - hitting for 4k without crit?  Now that is   :awesome_for_real:

(edit : clarification)


Title: Re: 3.3.3 Is Live
Post by: Slyfeind on March 23, 2010, 07:09:47 PM
Maybe give it one more try and see if it was one of the ones tweaked?

Meh. Maybe. I have everything I want from the badges, and there's plenty other dailes to do.

I think in this case it's a matter of too many adds. I've given up on those too. Fuck jousting around ICC. Holy fuck my mind is reeling with filthy rotten painful things I'd rather do to myself than those rancid pus-dripping joust quests around ICC.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on March 23, 2010, 10:16:02 PM
Quest items seem to have a gold square around them now in your inventory.

Yeah, I thought that was neat.  Also, items that start quests have the border AND show a quest exclamation point.


Title: Re: 3.3.3 Is Live
Post by: koro on March 24, 2010, 06:53:21 AM
Maybe give it one more try and see if it was one of the ones tweaked?

Meh. Maybe. I have everything I want from the badges, and there's plenty other dailes to do.

I think in this case it's a matter of too many adds. I've given up on those too. Fuck jousting around ICC. Holy fuck my mind is reeling with filthy rotten painful things I'd rather do to myself than those rancid pus-dripping joust quests around ICC.
I just group for them. Whenever I'm going about my business doing the Tournament dailies, there are always at least one or two people at any given time looking for "Threat/Cit" on my server. Invite, gather together, do one, fly down to the other, do it, done. Takes under five minutes on average.


Title: Re: 3.3.3 Is Live
Post by: Shrike on March 24, 2010, 09:05:15 AM
Maybe give it one more try and see if it was one of the ones tweaked?

Meh. Maybe. I have everything I want from the badges, and there's plenty other dailes to do.

I think in this case it's a matter of too many adds. I've given up on those too. Fuck jousting around ICC. Holy fuck my mind is reeling with filthy rotten painful things I'd rather do to myself than those rancid pus-dripping joust quests around ICC.


I just don't do those dailys anymore. They just aren't worth the time. I can scare up my 25/day limit pretty easily without them if I'm so inclined.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on March 24, 2010, 05:44:41 PM
I'm getting really long log-in screen waits that are only resolved by a forced exit and restart, then they are instant. It only seems to happen from the login screen and generally once per character per... while.

Anyone else getting this?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on March 24, 2010, 05:51:32 PM
Only if I'm zoning in to Dalaran.  But yeah, same thing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on March 24, 2010, 06:22:35 PM
Only if I'm zoning in to Dalaran.  But yeah, same thing.

Yep, to the letter.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on March 24, 2010, 06:42:26 PM
Same.  Since Tuesday loading into any of my characters in Dalaran has been a gamble to say the least.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on March 24, 2010, 09:15:56 PM
Same problem here, although it's happened anywhere in Northrend, not just Dalaran.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on March 24, 2010, 11:12:46 PM
Only in Dal--so far.

Been logging in my warrior PvP twink in IF, checking AH, then relogging in my shaman, who's normally hanging out in the Dalaran sewers. No trouble then. No clue what the deal really is.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Hawkbit on March 25, 2010, 04:32:40 AM

Overall there have been some nice changes in the last year.  I think the Random BG/Dungeon ideas are great, although the dungeon finder needs a stiffer penalty for being a douche that gets the item they want and drops group.  Also, the random BG is placing me in a match within 15 seconds or so.  Pretty nice.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on March 25, 2010, 05:10:44 AM
I've noticed a huge spike in population in Dalaran since the patch.  It is just loaded with people.  I got a new computer recently so I'm not having any problems loading everything up and seeing the change in population.  I'm not sure what is causing everyone to hang out there.  I can't think of anything in the patch that would prompt people to just stay in Dalaran.

I tend to stay away from there as much as possible.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Drubear on March 25, 2010, 06:46:26 AM
Bind point (due to portals), Bank and Badge vendors. Why be anywhere else with /lfd and /lfb?

Maybe the PvP players would be in the cities with AH and Honor vendors, but you can portal to them easily enough. If they put a bank at the tournament (like they added badge vendors) people would spread out.

But again, "when Cataclysm comes..." it'll likely be a ghost town. (cf Shattrath.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Arinon on March 25, 2010, 07:39:26 AM
Shared capital cities were a horrible idea.  Aren't they taking us back to our respective corners in Cata?  That should help quite a bit.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on March 25, 2010, 09:00:19 AM
If they'd put portals in all the main cities people would spread out naturally.  Or at least give city-specific hearths.  I don't want to blow a 30 minute cooldown every time I want to hop around just so I can hang out in the Exodar.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on March 25, 2010, 09:28:08 AM
Well I agree to all of that, I just didn't see anything in the latest patch to change anything.

Don't forget:
- fishing daily
- j/c daily
- cooking daily
- weekly quest

I know they normally do this to keep people congregated together to make the game look populated, but this is just too extreme.  They had issues with this back in the IF days of lag.  That was two expansions back.  You'd think they'd learn.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on March 25, 2010, 09:29:50 AM
The only reason I really stay in Dal is it's conveniant to the dailys and to troll for PuGs for the weekly. Since my shaman has something like a 7min hearth, there's no other real reason to hang out there other than habit--which is really most of why I'm there.

I'd prefer to stay in SW or even IF, however I might relocate to Shatt. I've been faction grinding and dungeon slumming quite a bit in TBC lately and there sure as hell isn't anyone there to speak of.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nebu on March 25, 2010, 10:19:42 AM
I think Blizzard made a huge mistake by making Dalaran the place to congregate at the endgame.  Were they to have a collection area that catered to all levels, the people that are new to the game might feel like a part of the larger community. 

I do appreciate the convenience fo Dal, I just prefer the starter towns like SW or Ironforge for their charm.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Tarami on March 25, 2010, 10:54:13 AM
Dalaran isn't any different to how Shattrath was though, is it?

Ideally, I guess, every capital for each side would have a portal to a faction-specific "Hall of Portals" which in turn had a portal to every other capital. Initial access could be granted by having atleast one level 30 character on the account (like DKs, but lower), then further capitals can be unlocked as you're allowed to access corresponding expansion (58 and 68, I suppose, or attunements.)

A drawback of the way they're doing it now is that you get a mess of portals in lots of different places. There's no reason to have people wait for 30 minutes before they can go back, atleast not one I can think of, especially since a number of classes can already circumvent that timer.

I'm just being useless and armchair-designing/thinking out loud, don't mind me.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 25, 2010, 11:24:53 AM
Supposedly the main hubs in the expansion will indeed be the regular old world faction capitals.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on March 25, 2010, 11:30:07 AM
If you aren't already, I'd really suggest setting your hearths to The Underbelly.  The only reason I ever need to go topside in Dal is to pick up quests, queue for Wintergrasp, or to duck into a shop.

Aside from that, everything (bank, guild bank, mailbox, money changer, cooking fire, exit for flying mounts) is really close together and the only time I see more than two people down there at once is when it's the Sewers fishing daily.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on March 25, 2010, 11:31:27 AM
Supposedly the main hubs in the expansion will indeed be the regular old world faction capitals.

Note to self : Get "For the Horde!" before then...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on March 25, 2010, 01:33:13 PM

Overall there have been some nice changes in the last year.  I think the Random BG/Dungeon ideas are great, although the dungeon finder needs a stiffer penalty for being a douche that gets the item they want and drops group.  Also, the random BG is placing me in a match within 15 seconds or so.  Pretty nice.
Actually, i think the dungeon finder needs a "Vote to disband" function.  Basicly, if you bail on the group any time before the dungeon is finished without having a Disband vote pass, you automatically get a double duration dungeon deserter debuff.   This could also be used as a form of "IRL emergency check" in that if 1 person has to go, you can get a disband vote to pass, have that person leave, and re-enter the queue to fill the empty spot, and when a new person joins, the "disband vote has passed" flag gets reset for the group.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Jayce on March 25, 2010, 04:58:52 PM
TBH I look forward to Dalaran being a ghost town. It's a lot more finely detailed and designed than Shattrath ever was, as well as easier to get around in.  I actually LIKE it except for the crippling lag.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on March 25, 2010, 06:21:40 PM
Did they change something with BG kicks? Just had a WSG and it seemed that the leader was just randomly kicking people, including myself (10s before the game ended....)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on March 25, 2010, 09:03:52 PM
If you aren't already, I'd really suggest setting your hearths to The Underbelly.  The only reason I ever need to go topside in Dal is to pick up quests, queue for Wintergrasp, or to duck into a shop.

Aside from that, everything (bank, guild bank, mailbox, money changer, cooking fire, exit for flying mounts) is really close together and the only time I see more than two people down there at once is when it's the Sewers fishing daily.


Shhhhh! Don't ruin it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on March 26, 2010, 10:14:26 AM
Did they change something with BG kicks? Just had a WSG and it seemed that the leader was just randomly kicking people, including myself (10s before the game ended....)
I didn't even know you COULD kick people in BGs, besides reporting them AFK...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on March 26, 2010, 11:49:28 AM
The AFK thing has a delay on it though, and I wasn't AFK. The only way I can see it working is if the BG leader (who was being douchey) kicked me. Seeing 5-6 people drop out before the game even started seemed suspicious; I know people drop mid-game, but before it starts?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on March 26, 2010, 11:50:40 AM
Revenge got buffed a bit it seems (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1xeiH2mNhM)

 :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 26, 2010, 11:52:25 AM
UA will get nerfed imo.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on March 26, 2010, 11:57:26 AM
Sometimes people queue for two BGs at once, so people dropping at any given time may be due to the BG they really wanted finally popping.

I had no idea you could kick people from a BG.  From a BG raid group, sure.  I've seen that happen a few times.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 26, 2010, 12:40:42 PM
My damn Starfires don't crit for that much.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kageh on March 26, 2010, 12:44:02 PM
UA will get nerfed imo.

I'm tempted to try that mythical UA tanking spec out, but somehow afraid I'm losing out on too many Prot tools (mainly Warbringer, Shockwave and Devastate).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on March 26, 2010, 01:24:09 PM
You wouldn't need half those tools, that warrior is doing 10-11K dps as prot. Threat is a non-issue.

I think that warrior is tanking in DPS gear though, with close to 100% ArP. Has pretty bleeding edge gear either way. Still looks like a ton of fun.

Only think I don't understand is how revenge hits two targets, must be a talent or glyph I can't remember, what with not playing an endgame warrior.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on March 26, 2010, 01:25:45 PM
Only think I don't understand is how revenge hits two targets, must be a talent or glyph I can't remember, what with not playing an endgame warrior.

The swapped the Stun in Improved Revenge for a half-damage single-Cleave.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 26, 2010, 02:06:41 PM
UA will get nerfed imo.

I'm tempted to try that mythical UA tanking spec out, but somehow afraid I'm losing out on too many Prot tools (mainly Warbringer, Shockwave and Devastate).

Its gimmicky and you'll have to keep sunder up with sunder, I find it too annoying to bother with personally. I expect UA to be nerfed for pvp reasons anyway, so why get used to it?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on March 26, 2010, 02:13:16 PM
In my furious & relentless-geared prot warrior I Revenge crit a warlock yesterday for 8k.  I don't feel the least bit bad about it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 26, 2010, 02:17:22 PM
In my furious & relentless-geared prot warrior I Revenge crit a warlock yesterday for 8k.  I don't feel the least bit bad about it.


Serves him right for putting his pet on you, he should be able to pretty easily avoid letting you use revenge at all.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on March 26, 2010, 02:18:55 PM
My opinion exactly!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on March 26, 2010, 02:44:43 PM
I tried that spec out. It owns. I can pull 9k DPS in heroics with it.

It'd be stupid to nerf it however. You need to be physically attacked to do anything at all in that spec and you give up a lot of good survivability talents for it. It's only good for trash and heroics and nothing else. In PVP you could kill people horribly if they HIT you, but you're literally worthless if everyone just ignores you until last. Nevermind casters can still destroy you.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 26, 2010, 02:50:25 PM
It absolutely destroys people who have to hit you to do damage to you, though, especially dual wielders. I don't think it will last; its much worse now than the damage shield stuff they nerfed, for example.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 26, 2010, 08:58:44 PM
Any time anyone can somehow chain back to back 20k damage instant strikes, it's going to be nerfed somehow.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on March 26, 2010, 09:08:57 PM
GC has stated (today or yesterday) that Blizz is happy with revenge as is, BUT...they don't want to see 2sec revenges on arms with it in its present state.

So, yeah, I'd be looking for revenge to be removed from UA.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 26, 2010, 10:03:43 PM
The GC quote indicated they were happy leaving revenge on there, what's going to likely change is that you won't be able to do revenge 4 times off of the same parry or whatever if you have UA. It will probably have charges or something.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on March 27, 2010, 07:45:29 AM
Noob question here: what's UA? I haven't played my warrior in forever, and the only thing coming to mind is Unstable Affliction.

Edit: Ah, found it. So this is some Arms/Prot hybrid spec? Do you use a 2h for it or still sword/board?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on March 27, 2010, 09:08:48 AM
No, it's not typically a hybrid. What it is is arms warriors that carry shield and whatever to deal with pets, rogues, or other annoying melee types. A UA-pumped 2sec revenge can destroy BM hunter pets, shaman wolves, or dumbass rogues very quickly--while really cutting down on incoming damage. It's a good way to deal with protection types, too, though not nearly so much as the previously mentioned.

You gotta have a shield for this. Revenge is triggered by avoidance. UA just cuts the cooldown down (considerably--and increases damage somewhat).


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kageh on March 27, 2010, 10:09:58 AM
Edit: Ah, found it. So this is some Arms/Prot hybrid spec? Do you use a 2h for it or still sword/board?

Sword+board for PVE tanking, too. I'll try this out tonight. Have to work with sunder again, but I did that 2005 already so not much new there, and for that I supposedly get fun dps numbers. After much thinking on the matter, I think the only thing I'll really miss is Warbringer. Shockwave can probably be done without on regular 3-4 mob groups (no "mass tanking") by TC+Cleave+Revenge spam.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 27, 2010, 01:34:37 PM
No, it's not typically a hybrid. What it is is arms warriors that carry shield and whatever to deal with pets, rogues, or other annoying melee types. A UA-pumped 2sec revenge can destroy BM hunter pets, shaman wolves, or dumbass rogues very quickly--while really cutting down on incoming damage. It's a good way to deal with protection types, too, though not nearly so much as the previously mentioned.

You gotta have a shield for this. Revenge is triggered by avoidance. UA just cuts the cooldown down (considerably--and increases damage somewhat).

No, it is a hybrid in its current most annoying form, or at the very least not a normal arms build, because you go into protection deep enough to get improved revenge for the extra damage and the cleave.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on March 27, 2010, 07:26:33 PM
That's what I thought it was Ingmar; the normal Arms spec dips into Fury, but this one does Prot instead.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on March 27, 2010, 08:56:25 PM
No, it's not typically a hybrid. What it is is arms warriors that carry shield and whatever to deal with pets, rogues, or other annoying melee types. A UA-pumped 2sec revenge can destroy BM hunter pets, shaman wolves, or dumbass rogues very quickly--while really cutting down on incoming damage. It's a good way to deal with protection types, too, though not nearly so much as the previously mentioned.

You gotta have a shield for this. Revenge is triggered by avoidance. UA just cuts the cooldown down (considerably--and increases damage somewhat).

No, it is a hybrid in its current most annoying form, or at the very least not a normal arms build, because you go into protection deep enough to get improved revenge for the extra damage and the cleave.

It can be, but not necessarily so. The cleave effect isn't the real issue. It's the 2sec cooldown that's killer. Many arms types carried shields anyway for spell reflect and to deal with pets/rogues. The new revenge just makes this tactic all that much more effective, regardless of whether you have points in protection or not.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 27, 2010, 11:16:24 PM
No, it's not typically a hybrid. What it is is arms warriors that carry shield and whatever to deal with pets, rogues, or other annoying melee types. A UA-pumped 2sec revenge can destroy BM hunter pets, shaman wolves, or dumbass rogues very quickly--while really cutting down on incoming damage. It's a good way to deal with protection types, too, though not nearly so much as the previously mentioned.

You gotta have a shield for this. Revenge is triggered by avoidance. UA just cuts the cooldown down (considerably--and increases damage somewhat).

No, it is a hybrid in its current most annoying form, or at the very least not a normal arms build, because you go into protection deep enough to get improved revenge for the extra damage and the cleave.

It can be, but not necessarily so. The cleave effect isn't the real issue. It's the 2sec cooldown that's killer. Many arms types carried shields anyway for spell reflect and to deal with pets/rogues. The new revenge just makes this tactic all that much more effective, regardless of whether you have points in protection or not.

If it was just that people would have been complaining for ages. What tipped it suddenly is that besides the base buff to revenge damage, speccing improved revenge now increases the (now higher) damage by 60%. The cleave is nice but its the damage boost that is the real meat of it. It was only 20% before, and people didn't typically find that worth all those points in protection. Now, on the other hand...


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fabricated on March 28, 2010, 10:04:50 AM
It's certainly hilarious on trash and heroics. After swapping in some DPS gear I can pull over 10k DPS now in heroics.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on March 28, 2010, 10:06:16 AM
Here's hoping they don't nerf it soon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kageh on March 28, 2010, 03:15:22 PM
I tried it out and went back to regular protection for heroics. Numbers are cool (I was somewhere at 5k without bothering to swap gear) but it is too much of a hassle with a trigger happy PUG to sweat and get everything back under control when you have to walk every step. Warbringer is what I missed the most.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on March 28, 2010, 03:51:21 PM
I don't know if anyone noticed but now if someone leaves your dungeon and you get a replacement, the new person is instantly ported to the group and not the entrance of the dungeon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on March 28, 2010, 04:39:42 PM
I noticed this after casting Ritual of Summoning.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on March 29, 2010, 08:10:27 AM
I don't know if anyone noticed but now if someone leaves your dungeon and you get a replacement, the new person is instantly ported to the group and not the entrance of the dungeon.

I observed this as well this weekend in a rather fun manner...

Me : huh, group in progress.  Wonder if it's another Ick wipe...  (click)
(ToC loading screen)
Me : Well, it's not PoS, at least.  (swigs some water)
(I appear right on top of Paletress, combat already in progress)
Me : (nearly spew drink, grab for mouse and keyboard)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on March 29, 2010, 10:29:50 AM
Here's hoping they don't nerf it soon.

Here's hoping the novelty at least wears off soon.  I was running Heroic Draktharon on the wife's healer last night, and the first tank we got left after about 4 pulls; apparently he only wanted a chance to try out this spec while yelling stuff like "IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND!"  Fortunately, his replacement was sane.

While tanking on my character, I got another one of these in group.  He'd run ahead and grab aggro to do it and it was a serious bitch to keep it back off him.  Naturally I gave up and let him "tank"; by coincidence(?) this was another H-DK so it didn't matter much when we were down a DPS :)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: kildorn on March 29, 2010, 11:21:01 AM
I don't know if anyone noticed but now if someone leaves your dungeon and you get a replacement, the new person is instantly ported to the group and not the entrance of the dungeon.

This is very welcome, and a total surprise.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on March 29, 2010, 03:38:08 PM
Here's hoping they don't nerf it soon.

Here's hoping the novelty at least wears off soon.  I was running Heroic Draktharon on the wife's healer last night, and the first tank we got left after about 4 pulls; apparently he only wanted a chance to try out this spec while yelling stuff like "IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND!"  Fortunately, his replacement was sane.

While tanking on my character, I got another one of these in group.  He'd run ahead and grab aggro to do it and it was a serious bitch to keep it back off him.  Naturally I gave up and let him "tank"; by coincidence(?) this was another H-DK so it didn't matter much when we were down a DPS :)

If you've ever been forced to be a prot warrior for any length of time, you sympathize with this behavior.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Polysorbate80 on March 29, 2010, 05:03:09 PM

If you've ever been forced to be a prot warrior for any length of time, you sympathize with this behavior.

If they've ever been prot warriors for any length of time, they know why I let them die  :grin:

(I've played a prot paly off and on since vanilla; I still don't sympathize)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: El Gallo on March 30, 2010, 04:44:32 AM
(I've played a prot paly off and on since vanilla; I still don't sympathize)

That's like saying "I'm Paris Hilton; I don't sympathize with children in Rwanda"


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kageh on March 30, 2010, 06:56:49 AM
If you've ever been forced to be a prot warrior for any length of time, you sympathize with this behavior.

I partially agree, but that applies mainly to vanilla WoW. Having played protection on and off from release day and as main spec through TBC and WOTLK, I found protection in WOTLK a joy to play. My warrior is not as good on AOE aggro as a prot paladin (I got one of those too, just because I wanted to know how they play), but the creative use of charge/interrupt mechanics  feels a lot more rewarding to me than being confined to 96969 variations.

With that, 3.3 feels like a nice buff to my DPS, where I peak around 3 - 3.5k DPS as "classic" (15/3/53) protection on trash and that makes me happy for now. Asking for more would be pushing it into the realm of endless class balance discussions again.

The one area clearly dominated by paladins is group utility. When you compare Commanding Shout (which makes little to no difference in the days of 18k+ HP on squishies) and Battle Shout (which doesn't stack with BoM) to the various blessings/judgements/shields/cleanse/hands of ... that a paladin has, you feel kind of useless.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 30, 2010, 11:16:34 AM
Protection warriors have never been unfun to play, you people are just crazy.  :oh_i_see:

(Also prot pallies, its been like 3 years since you sucked, build a bridge.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on March 30, 2010, 12:21:40 PM
Protection warriors have never been unfun to play, you people are just crazy.  :oh_i_see:

Fun? You better believe it.

High damage?  Er...  not really.  So if I actually get an uber crit off of revenge, the group might hear an "over 9000" joke from me.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on March 30, 2010, 01:50:08 PM
The ICC raid buff went up to 10% today.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on March 30, 2010, 03:14:53 PM
OOoh, fun.  I feel bad we didn't get Putricide before the 5% buff, but we've been doing him consistently with it.  That extra 5% will allow some 'omg crazy' time. Heh.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on March 30, 2010, 04:17:29 PM
Friend of mine went back, but I just can't work up the interest. I'm hearing that non-random BG queues are horrifyingly long, is that true? I really don't like this whole thing where content sitting unused is unacceptable, but instead of improving it they just slap a random select on it and make that the most rewarding option.

Having to do vehicle bullshit in the occasional random Oculus or ToC was bad enough. Making 1/3 of all the battlegrounds I do either SotA or IoC is just plain not acceptable.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Arrrgh on March 30, 2010, 04:46:19 PM
AV is sad now. Pure race to the boss, no one bothers capping anything at all on the way. Matches are over in minutes.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: koro on March 30, 2010, 05:22:20 PM
AV is sad now. Pure race to the boss, no one bothers capping anything at all on the way. Matches are over in minutes.
Welcome to four years ago.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Arrrgh on March 30, 2010, 06:26:23 PM
AV is sad now. Pure race to the boss, no one bothers capping anything at all on the way. Matches are over in minutes.
Welcome to four years ago.

No, before they'd at least cap GYs and bunkers on the way, even if they didn't bother guarding them well. Now everything is ignored.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on March 30, 2010, 11:26:37 PM
AV is sad now. Pure race to the boss, no one bothers capping anything at all on the way. Matches are over in minutes.
Welcome to four years ago.

No, before they'd at least cap GYs and bunkers on the way, even if they didn't bother guarding them well. Now everything is ignored.
any reason for this?  Only thing I remember hearing about in the patch notes for AV was something about the Keep bosses and adds ignoring some of a player's dodge if there were lots of them up.   What did they change that would make AV rushing more profitable then even a token attempt to take towers / bunkers?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kail on March 30, 2010, 11:36:51 PM
What did they change that would make AV rushing more profitable then even a token attempt to take towers / bunkers?

At a guess, I'd say it's less a change in AV and more the fact that PvE gear is extremely common nowadays.  Taking the Boss with a group of forty random players is more doable now that Joe Average is wearing Tier 9 armor than it was when everyone was running around in blue honor gear.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 31, 2010, 12:13:54 AM
Yeah, its just gear inflation. This happens towards the end of every expansion cycle so far.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on March 31, 2010, 07:25:50 AM
Yeah, its just gear inflation. This happens towards the end of every expansion cycle so far.

All they would have to do is change it so you have to at least take some bunkers or GY's before taking on the bosses.  Right now it is a real joke and should be corrected.  Each time I ran it last weekend, we'd run down straight to the end boss only to lose because to many of our team would split off and try to do it the old way.  Horde on our BS figured out quicker than us that you just zerg for wins.

Either way, I still run them sometimes to get the very quick honor, win or lose.  Most times I use Random though.  My issue with that is it doesn't feel very random most the time.  WSG comes up 50% or more of the time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on March 31, 2010, 09:38:42 AM
Yeah, its just gear inflation. This happens towards the end of every expansion cycle so far.

This shit only goes on in the 80 bracket. In the twink brackets, it's business as usual. Well, aside from the assholes with no LK accounts in the 69 bracket. There you'll see level 70 capped T6 equippied people as a matter of course. Unless Blizz changed it again. It's been a couple of months since I hit AV on my 68 paladin.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 31, 2010, 10:50:32 AM
It's mostly the super geared tanks that allow the early rush. Without the 40k HP tank, the entire thing just falls apart.



Which is why I usually cyclone the enemy tank about 10-20 seconds into the general fight.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on March 31, 2010, 10:57:07 AM
Oh, that's great.  I have a sudden desire to play some PvP now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: ezrast on March 31, 2010, 11:19:35 AM
Friend of mine went back, but I just can't work up the interest. I'm hearing that non-random BG queues are horrifyingly long, is that true? I really don't like this whole thing where content sitting unused is unacceptable, but instead of improving it they just slap a random select on it and make that the most rewarding option.

Having to do vehicle bullshit in the occasional random Oculus or ToC was bad enough. Making 1/3 of all the battlegrounds I do either SotA or IoC is just plain not acceptable.
This. Last weekend wasn't so bad because it was the AV holiday, but aside from that queuing for specifics is pretty much pointless, at least on Shadowburn. Also, the random queue gives me Strand all the fucking time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on March 31, 2010, 11:27:16 AM
 :heart: Strand


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: proudft on March 31, 2010, 11:38:14 AM
Which is why I usually cyclone the enemy tank about 10-20 seconds into the general fight.  :awesome_for_real:

My favorite wrench-in-the-works is deathgripping their healers into the room while they are still milling about waiting for someone to take charge.  Surprising how often that works.  They usually get exploded by Vann & Co. before they even hit the ground.   :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 31, 2010, 12:16:09 PM
Really on our Battlegroup, the alliance is so stubborn that we'll just send 10-20 guys to defend Van at the start of the games now. Fuck your blitzing, think we are afraid of turtling?  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Dren on March 31, 2010, 12:31:28 PM
Really on our Battlegroup, the alliance is so stubborn that we'll just send 10-20 guys to defend Van at the start of the games now. Fuck your blitzing, think we are afraid of turtling?  :why_so_serious:

Nope.  Turtle's turn into a horde win 99% of the time in my experience.  They grab the bottle neck and GY quick and it is hell getting it back.  I've seen it done, but it was an extremely long AV.  I actually enjoyed it and the honor was exceptional.  Another reason I'd like to see them fix AV so it isn't a zerg.  I enjoy it even if we lose a turtle.  I'm in BG's to PvP, not bumrush a Boss with 39 other people.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 31, 2010, 12:40:14 PM
We've won just about every game when we cockblock the Van-Blitz. We'll still have 20+ guys attacking the horde towers the old fashioned way, and we'll win either through pure attrition or we'll knock down enough towers to just kill Drek oldschool.


If we dedicate ourselves to defense, they simply will not get the DunBaldar bunkers or GY. There only hope is to have their own tower recapture teams be on the ball back on their side of the map. Since we shit up every tower with at least 5+ people, it's rare for that to happen.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on March 31, 2010, 02:37:41 PM
So wait..

you're telling me that after a new AV change that many have been winning by zerging until people start figuring out that a solid defense can stop this?!


Oh my god it's 2006!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on March 31, 2010, 04:49:12 PM
Which is why I usually cyclone the enemy tank about 10-20 seconds into the general fight.  :awesome_for_real:
Back in the days when you could still wall jump around a bit due to creative use of polygon angles, i found a way to get my druid wedged about 20 feet up the back wall in Dreks room.  It quite often took the alliance a good 10 minutes to figure out who was cycloning their tanks when they ran in to take drek.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Fordel on March 31, 2010, 05:00:28 PM
We once had someone do that on our side, some rogue got up there and kept Evade bugging Drek for us ><


Was brutal, couldn't reset Drek, couldn't kill him, couldn't do anything to our own rogue being a giant cockhole. We eventually managed to /emote convo a horde hunter into shooting him dead.

/point
/point
/Yes
/kill
/yes
/thank


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Wolf on April 01, 2010, 02:07:01 AM
bah... got this one yesterday: http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=24872

Seems... kind of hard, compared to other icecrown weeklies.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on April 01, 2010, 03:38:45 AM
No harder than killing Princes & Engaging Bloodqueen in 20min.  http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=24879#comments

If anything it's easier because there's no damn timer on it, your guild just has to be able to kill Sindragosa.  Sure, it seems hard now but so did Saurfang at first.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Wolf on April 01, 2010, 07:22:08 AM
We've been killing Sindragosa since the second reset she was out. The mechanic is weird, off of wowhead:

Quote
In order to complete this quest, you need to have multiple people using their Pulsing Life Crystal. (obtained from Valithria Dreamwalker for the random raid weekly) Having multiple people using the quest item, will make the buff Life Unfusion stack faster. You CAN have one person do it, but it will go faster the more people that do it. You need to get 30 stacks on her in 10-player, and 75 stacks for the 25-player encounter. She will do an emote when she hits 20% life, and only after that are you allowed to use the item. You have 10 seconds for someone in the raid to use the Pulsing Life Crystal before the entire stack of buffs falls off.

Anyway, you can still fail it if you don't get enough stacks up and still kill sindragosa.

Princes/Lathanel has been 30 min since the first week iirc? Not that hard, we've been getting it every week but this, and one time fester/rot.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on April 01, 2010, 10:05:35 AM
Keeping Darnavan alive from your lolderp DPS is the hardest quest of all.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Minvaren on April 01, 2010, 05:44:48 PM
Got a two-fer:

1] Did drop rates change for ICC instances?  PoS reg today looked like purple rain off the trash.

2] Does the LFD tool no longer tell you when you're joining a group already in progress?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on April 01, 2010, 05:48:53 PM
1) Dunno, haven't had an ICC instance since the patch... sometimes you just get lucky, though.
2) It still does, it just looks different so you have to read the window.  It also doesn't tell you how many bosses are dead in the instance.  Overall I dislike the change.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Evildrider on April 01, 2010, 05:49:28 PM
Keeping Darnavan alive from your lolderp DPS is the hardest quest of all.

We never have this problem.  Usually it's the transition between the tanks when they have to swap aggro that is a pain for us.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on April 01, 2010, 05:50:10 PM
The Random dungeon finder hasn't been showing me the partially-complete warning since 3.3.2 I think. On the flip-side I don't think completing an instance with a group that you join part-way through saves you to the place, I'm not 100% sure though; it may just be buggy.

I did HoR earlier and saw no trash drops, and I haven't seen a hilt since day one when we got three of trash (pre-nerf ofc). Maybe they'll buff the droprate back up again. I wouldn't mind tbh, ICC weapons are fairly accessible now on most servers and I rather want to do the quest on my priest.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Evildrider on April 01, 2010, 05:51:19 PM
All I know about those damn heroics is that I've only seen the battered hilt drop once.  :(


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on April 01, 2010, 07:52:37 PM
Yea the Hilt seems really rare these days; I figure it's a combination of the nerfed drop rate and less people running the ICC 5ms for gear. Regardless, there hasn't been one on the AH on my server in a week or so, nor have I seen anyone spamming in trade.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on April 02, 2010, 02:47:06 AM
All I know about those damn heroics is that I've only seen the battered hilt drop once.  :(

Me too.  Once, and a lucky roll, was enough.

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Kageh on April 02, 2010, 03:05:02 AM
Farming the three ICC 5-mans religiously for 2 weeks (done H-Fos/PoS/HoR every day) I've seen it drop 3 times. I won the third one, haven't seen it since.

On the day I won it, I joined a 10-man guild and have seen the damn Saurafang axe drop three times since. And to think how much PITA the hilt farming was.



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on April 02, 2010, 06:21:28 AM
And to think how much PITA the hilt farming was.
Which is why I used to scoff at all the "WTB Battered Hilt 10k" comments in trade chat.  Seriously, can't get into an ICC-10 PUG?  The new ICC-5 heroic weapons aren't that much worse than the Hilt's rewards.  Other than the achievement, none of my characters have any need for it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: K9 on April 02, 2010, 06:52:40 AM
For shamans  the mace rewards are the best weapons you can get outside of 25-man ICC, ICC10 hardmodes and ToGC25.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on April 02, 2010, 08:33:55 AM
I'd argue that the ICC10 fist weapon is better, and more easily avialablie (GC finally comes through on the 1h itemization promise...), but at least we have more than one thing that doesn't drop off an end bosss that's useful to us now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Wolf on May 11, 2010, 11:34:19 PM
Hmmm... They're testing Ruby Sanctum this week.

Quote
Now that the 3.3.5 patch is available for PTR testing, we wanted to have a round of focus testing for Ruby Sanctum this Thursday, May 13. Only normal mode will be available, with Heroic testing to occur at a later date.

Only normal mode? There will be heroic? Nice. If they give it a couple of weeks we might very well be up to Arthas in heroic icc, just on time for us slow pokes.

I'm just wondering what sort of hurt I can put on blizzard if there's no decent 10m caster trinket in there.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on May 28, 2010, 11:06:53 AM
So Ruby Sanctum 10 man will have what? 264 gear?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on May 28, 2010, 11:16:22 AM
All the drops so far up on Wowhead are item level 258 or 271, so it'll have the same levels as Lich King's loot.

As for trinkets, they all appear to be from 25-man for now.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: sickrubik on June 21, 2010, 08:10:53 AM
3.3.5 live this week.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on June 22, 2010, 05:03:48 PM
L.O.L Patch day.

I just foolishly tried to login, forgetting today was Battle.net integration day AND, while not going live yet, the next raid was being patched in.  Yeah I'll just pretend I tried to login for the raid all night and will be on the PS3 for the evening instead.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on June 23, 2010, 10:35:44 AM
Oh, wait until you log in. 3.3.5 has some very special "features" waiting for you.

Teaser: how can a perfectly stable 6 year old game become unplayable? Well, you might very well find out.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on June 23, 2010, 10:40:27 AM
I like that the known issues list is almost bigger than the patch notes.

Glad, I'm not playing right now.  Because, like an idiot, I'd try to play.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on June 23, 2010, 10:45:52 AM
I can--at present--do instances just fine. However, wandering about the world...not so much.




Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rendakor on June 23, 2010, 10:59:42 AM
Honestly besides some lag in Dalaran and our whole 10m raid DCing once on Marrowgar, I've had no problems. Even my addons all appear to be functioning. All in all, this patch seems less of a clusterfuck than normal for Blizz.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on June 23, 2010, 11:18:44 AM
People were DCing in Dal and of course everyone's addons broke, but otherwise it seemed ok while I was on last night.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on June 23, 2010, 11:34:04 AM
Never, ever try to raid on Tuesday.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on June 23, 2010, 12:30:10 PM
Other than taking a while to load in Dal, and breaking Chatter, I had no problems at all.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 23, 2010, 01:09:34 PM
My server was one of the first to come up. Other than all the dipshit addicts from other servers running around on level 1 alts shitting up trade even worse than normal, everything was fine. Logged right in and did Wintergrasp.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on June 23, 2010, 01:54:49 PM
Never, ever try to raid on Tuesday.

It's one of my guild's raid days. We've tried to move it but Tues/Thurs seems to work best for us. We've finally just accepted that sometimes our raids will be cancelled on account of patch.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on June 23, 2010, 04:39:25 PM
Prat broke, natch.
Grid generated an error, apparently with a library that wasn't doing much of anything.
The attempt to break AVR may very well have done something to ChocolateBar (my DataBroker display), but I just needed to grab a new version of the offending library and the errors stopped.

Overall, a really uneventful patch from an addon perspective.  I have had some crashes though and leaving the Underbelly does seem to make the game go all black for no reason so, stability has been not-so-good.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on June 23, 2010, 05:09:45 PM
Never, ever try to raid on Tuesday.

Explain that to my 25-year-old raidleader who seems to think that raiding Tuesdays is a stellar idea.  Can't do it Friday/ Saturday because "I have a life to live..." (except they don't and have been on WoW Friday and Saturday night I've ever been on, anyway.)  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on June 23, 2010, 05:35:30 PM
I have had some crashes though and leaving the Underbelly does seem to make the game go all black for no reason so, stability has been not-so-good.

Do you have a 64 bit OS?  This patch has introduced a nasty memory leak/crash problem (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25552505632&sid=1).  That black flickering is one of the things that could happen when the system starts to run out of memory.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on June 23, 2010, 05:53:19 PM
Yeah, I've had that problem before related to memory so if there's a new leak it would make sense that it's happening more quickly for me.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on June 23, 2010, 08:56:15 PM
I have had some crashes though and leaving the Underbelly does seem to make the game go all black for no reason so, stability has been not-so-good.

Do you have a 64 bit OS?  This patch has introduced a nasty memory leak/crash problem (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25552505632&sid=1).  That black flickering is one of the things that could happen when the system starts to run out of memory.

It's affect 32 bit OSs as well. I'm running Win7 32bit and I have this problem in spades. It never crashes, but graphical issues make the game essentially unplayable out in the world.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on June 23, 2010, 09:49:15 PM
I appear to have dodged the bullet.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Selby on June 23, 2010, 11:08:10 PM
I appear to have dodged the bullet.
Same.  Mine runs fine, no changes at all.  Half the guild can't go to Dal anymore though.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Musashi on June 23, 2010, 11:42:53 PM
Never, ever try to raid on Tuesday.

Explain that to my 25-year-old raidleader who seems to think that raiding Tuesdays is a stellar idea.  Can't do it Friday/ Saturday because "I have a life to live..." (except they don't and have been on WoW Friday and Saturday night I've ever been on, anyway.)  :awesome_for_real:

Everything breaks on maintenance, especially when they patch.  Everyone zergs reset instances, whose servers shit themselves.  It's just a bad, bad, idea to raid on Tuesday if you take any other day off from raiding during the week.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on June 24, 2010, 07:54:18 PM
Hello pastor, I'm the chorus leader.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 26, 2010, 06:34:31 PM
This barely feels like an MMO anymore. I don't need gold or rep so I don't do dailies, and those were the only reason for a level 80 to ever leave town anymore.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Soulflame on June 27, 2010, 10:11:03 AM
Just think of Dalaran as a lobby!  That makes it all better, right?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Triforcer on June 27, 2010, 10:26:56 AM
But...but...I thought it was the pinnacle of MMO evolution to never have to travel to dungeons or do anything except fight bosses!  Any other opinion means you are a sadomachosistic 1999 Everquest player who wants to punish players instead of letting them have fun!


This is the bed ya'll made every time you screeched "DEVS WANT TO PUNISH ME BECAUSE PEN AND PAPER D&D WAS HARD AND THEY CAN'T JUST LET US HAVE FUN!1!"

Lie in it. 


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on June 27, 2010, 11:01:07 AM
I'm fine with it, but then I find ways to keep myself more involved than sitting in Dalaran.

(It's still DIKU though, so there are still plenty of faults I can find with it.)


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on June 27, 2010, 12:55:50 PM
But...but...I thought it was the pinnacle of MMO evolution to never have to travel to dungeons or do anything except fight bosses!  Any other opinion means you are a sadomachosistic 1999 Everquest player who wants to punish players instead of letting them have fun!


This is the bed ya'll made every time you screeched "DEVS WANT TO PUNISH ME BECAUSE PEN AND PAPER D&D WAS HARD AND THEY CAN'T JUST LET US HAVE FUN!1!"

Lie in it. 

I find said bed pretty comfortable, but I leave Dalaran all the time.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 27, 2010, 01:30:21 PM
They need more goldsinks so I have a reason to do dailies. The motorcycle and mammoth are too expensive and not desirable enough. If you have 5k gold and have already bought epic flight and dual spec, you can basically either kill yourself farming another 10k or just decide you have enough and forget gold exists.

Also, UO was more worldy that whatever bullshit you miss, Triforcer, but you could still travel anywhere instantly by recalling. WoW is a positively nuisance-filled slog of running and flying to places by comparison.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 27, 2010, 02:31:06 PM
You could always try i dunno, rp. that or being social, joining a like minded group of indivduals and running events and such? I dunno you could call it an association or a guild if you like.

Before we get on this giant lobby tangent can we at least agree that having to run to barrens just to do WSG or take a 15min flight to searing gorge to to BRD sucked ass?



Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: lesion on June 27, 2010, 03:45:12 PM
I've got a hojillion alts and make poor life decisions. My problem is saving up more than 100 gold. The newer dungeon system is le awesome.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Cadaverine on June 27, 2010, 04:30:45 PM
I'm not liking that I can't bring the chat window all the way down to the bottom left.  Other than that, it's business as usual after I turned off all the realID stuff I could find to turn off.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on June 27, 2010, 04:33:54 PM
I've got a hojillion alts and make poor life decisions. My problem is saving up more than 100 gold. The newer dungeon system is le awesome.

Yeah, me too. The game really wants you to roll alts, you can sink a lot of gold into that.

If you're raiding and the upgrades are coming quickly, you can burn through a lot of gold repairing after wiped and buying new gems and enchants, too.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Lantyssa on June 27, 2010, 04:41:39 PM
You could always try i dunno, rp. that or being social, joining a like minded group of indivduals and running events and such? I dunno you could call it an association or a guild if you like.
Hahahahahahahahaha!  RP in WoW?  *dies laughing*

I love RP.  Probably more than most of the board.  I'd rather shoot myself in an extremity than try to find RP in WoW.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sheepherder on June 27, 2010, 08:41:01 PM
Yeah, me too. The game really wants you to roll alts, you can sink a lot of gold into that.

If you're raiding and the upgrades are coming quickly, you can burn through a lot of gold repairing after wiped and buying new gems and enchants, too.

I make money on alts.  Not a lot, but if I try hard enough I can usually afford a basic flying mount by 60.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on June 27, 2010, 08:55:12 PM
All my 80s have epic (and Northrend) flying. That's a fair bit of money there.  Not to mention that I gem and enchant as best I can and have a bad habit of changing my mind on my tradeskills.  I'm usually pretty drained or have large "corrections" in my bank balance semi-often. I think I still have 6-10k (no idea really, I don't remember at the time I quit) for my goblin hunter.  But, I don't put a lot of effort into making money outside of selling uncut epic gems (rogue is a transmute master) and only really try hard when I need another epic flying, which hasn't been for a bit now.

If I really wanted to spend money I could get a hilts for my characters that could use a slight upgrade over the 232 they have. Or level my druid and his leatherworking  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on June 27, 2010, 10:00:58 PM
You could always try i dunno, rp. that or being social, joining a like minded group of indivduals and running events and such? I dunno you could call it an association or a guild if you like.
Hahahahahahahahaha!  RP in WoW?  *dies laughing*

I love RP.  Probably more than most of the board.  I'd rather shoot myself in an extremity than try to find RP in WoW.

Moon Guard/Horde has it! It's ADORABLE.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 27, 2010, 10:30:14 PM
Hahahahahahahahaha!  RP in WoW?  *dies laughing*

I love RP.  Probably more than most of the board.  I'd rather shoot myself in an extremity than try to find RP in WoW.

QFT.

I don't even know why WoW has RP servers. The game just plain isn't built for it at all.

Also, I just joined a guild in WoW. On my RP server. All they do is run heroics, make jokes in chat about who has more dicks in their mouth/ass/nose, and talk idle shit about getting ready to raid ICC. I've been in their Ventrilo, and all I'm waiting for is for a girl to join, because I can already tell you they're going to go absolutely fucking spastic.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ironwood on June 28, 2010, 01:50:03 AM
You need to BE that girl.  And then post us the funny.


Come on;  Make it Happen.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 28, 2010, 02:49:00 AM
That's way too much work. I just fail to try and MMO date the girl, and thus she ends up running around with me/Gar/Lex because she doesn't feel like we expect anything of her. Then since Gar and Lex are engaged IRL, some hunchbacked lovestruck nerd decides it's clearly WUA who has stolen his e-woman. Drama ensues.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2010, 02:49:17 AM
Gemming and enchanting (I often make bad decisions or change my mind and have to regem) eats up all my extra gold. When I started to work on a set of offspec gear, grinding dailies to feed that contributed to my recent WoW burnout.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: WindupAtheist on June 28, 2010, 02:54:16 AM
Am I really the only one who plays a single character, researches his gems and enchants before buying them, has two gathering professions, and isn't unduly addicted to vanity pets off the AH or something? I've had enough money laying around that I've largely subsidized epic flying for good friends of mine in the past, and I really do not grind hard at all.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Shrike on June 28, 2010, 03:06:26 AM
Am I really the only one who plays a single character, researches his gems and enchants before buying them, has two gathering professions, and isn't unduly addicted to vanity pets off the AH or something? I've had enough money laying around that I've largely subsidized epic flying for good friends of mine in the past, and I really do not grind hard at all.

No, but I play 3 characters regularly (2x80s, 1x79 that's xp locked because of bracket PvP) and 3 more occasionally (another 80, a 77 that will eventually join the 79, and a 58 bracket warrior I just don't have time for right now). They all have supporting gathering professions (mostly mining--four are tanks). They all have complementary TS professions. They all can make money and have substantial bankrolls when they're active. I don't typically blow money on stupid stuff in the AH, and the regulars are tuned to a razor edge in their respective classes. I do spend a fair amount of time on the AH looking for deals in raw gems, leather, and enchants. This stuff gets stored for "later". I don't like impulse shopping.

I don't grind much anymore. I do like to keep a certain amount on gold on hand and I will go out of my way to keep it at a comfortable level (30k). Otherwise, I just run the dungeon dailys and fiddle around with the tournament dailys. I might do a bit more, but that's the everyday stuff. Takes about two hours to get done, unless it's a PvP night, then all bets are off. Raiding is strictly a weekend thing.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: lesion on June 28, 2010, 03:33:16 AM
All my 80s have epic (and Northrend) flying.

If I transfer something to your server, can I have your stuff?


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Merusk on June 28, 2010, 03:44:51 AM
Am I really the only one who plays a single character,

On this board? Yes.

Since we're talking money, If I was still running dailies I'd probably have 20-25k right now instead of just 15k.  There's always tons of greens to turn into scrolls on my enchanting alt and the DK is a miner/ blacksmith.  That gives him access to selling gems, ore and faction-required smithy patterns to make money off of on top of the dailies.

I've found the best way to keep money is to just take leveling the tradeskills slowly and don't do something dumb like buying up mats.   Keep your bags empty so you can collect things, including greys (Which I STILl see people skip looting) and have a few alts to convert things like greens, blues and cloth into finished items or mats that will sell.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on June 28, 2010, 07:22:21 AM
Am I really the only one who plays a single character,

On this board? Yes.

Wrong. I play a warrior tank. That's it. He's a blacksmithing/engineer, so no gathering professions, all gemmed and enchanted with combo gear from 10/25 man ICC, and has 6,000 gold on him. Even without the gathering, I've never had a need for gold. Hell, if I need gold badly I'll just run dungeons and fish for a couple of days and I'm usually set for the next 2 months. Also, I hate pets and don't buy any of the non-functional shit off the AH.

So WUA, you're not the only one.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Rasix on June 28, 2010, 08:29:04 AM
All my 80s have epic (and Northrend) flying.

If I transfer something to your server, can I have your stuff?

Some stuff perhaps.  Not all stuff.  I like my stuff since apparently I'd need a licensed 12 step program to ever stop playing WoW permanently.

I'm not there currently.  My stuff is idle.   :awesome_for_real:

edit: Eh, we take you for granted Paelos. We know you're the looney lone warrior.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Draegan on June 28, 2010, 10:48:20 AM
When I play WOW, I only play one character as well.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Paelos on June 28, 2010, 10:57:41 AM
edit: Eh, we take you for granted Paelos. We know you're the looney lone warrior.

Fair enough. I'm also a CPA though so I have in-game budgets.

Because I'm a nerd.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Wolf on June 30, 2010, 11:18:05 PM
Ruby Sanctum is good and Halion is a fun fight.

I am getting seriously annoyed at the asshole that's making the calls as far as 10m itemization is concerned. No caster trinket again. I'm stuck with my ilvl200 I've had for a year now, unless I'm willing to PUG a relatively hard instance for a trinket that never drops and roll a 3 against 15 people all below me on recount. Is it so hard to _at least_ make heroic/normal ICC trinkets usable together?

And can I just get annoyed on yet another instance I have to raid every week for no upgrade. I wonder what the thought process looked like: "Caster DPS? Let's put a belt with hit! But there's already a higher ilvl belt available as a badge purchase? No, no, we'll put a second red socket on this one and make it marginally better. We need another item, let's make a caster ring with hit! But that would make it the same ring as the ilvl 277 faction ring that everyone's wearing, only 20ilvls below? It will? Well, too late, I already made my mind up. We done? Let's talk about caster plate, I'm certain that every 10m guild has at least 2 healing paladins."


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on June 30, 2010, 11:45:43 PM
Yeah, the Ruby Sanctum-10 itemization is useless, and while the Heroic stuff might have a place I imagine that when you're in a position to do it it'll be similarly pointless.

There are three things I'd like out of Ruby Sanctum-25, but they're the same thing pretty much everyone else wants (Ring/Cloak/Bracers) so I'm a bit SOL on that front.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Wolf on July 01, 2010, 12:41:40 AM
That's just it, even heroic versions are useless for cloth dps as the items themselves are filling weird roles. I could, conceivably, find a way to use the belt, but that would mean completely working my setup around it. It's just sloppy work is what it is :(

Heroic is easy, he just hits harder from what I could tell. We got him to third phase, but it was getting late so we just killed on normal.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ingmar on July 01, 2010, 01:05:47 AM
The tanking boots are nice!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Wolf on July 01, 2010, 02:32:08 AM
That may be so, but I really thought that someone paid attention and ruby sanctum will fill some gaping holes in ICC 10m itemization - non-hit-non healer off-hand and a second trinket. Not copy/paste items we already have access to.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: apocrypha on July 01, 2010, 03:05:04 AM
RS pugs are... entertaining so far. Really exposes the high gearscores who've been carried by their guilds. How can you get a hunter to level 80 and 5800 gearscore and not have a button for Tranq Shot on your bars?  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on July 01, 2010, 04:17:54 AM
Because in RS all these people are stuck without two-tiers-worth of damage output and health in an encounter that's tuned roughly the same as ICC.  Add on to that your baseline level of stupid, and you're good to go!


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: SurfD on July 01, 2010, 01:58:27 PM
Because in RS all these people are stuck without two-tiers-worth of damage output and health in an encounter that's tuned roughly the same as ICC.  Add on to that your baseline level of stupid, and you're good to go!
Ruby Sanctum: where pugs will wipe on trash more often then they wipe on bosses in ICC.    I imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth over some of those trash pulls will be truely epic untill people re-discover how to cc and split pulls up properly.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on July 01, 2010, 02:55:32 PM
RS pugs are... entertaining so far. Really exposes the high gearscores who've been carried by their guilds. How can you get a hunter to level 80 and 5800 gearscore and not have a button for Tranq Shot on your bars?  :uhrr:

Because my baaaars are so fucking fuuuuuuuuuull.

That said I'm pretty sure my hunter has tranq shot on her bars somewhere. My issue would be remembering wtf the icon looked like and finding it.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Nevermore on July 01, 2010, 03:18:27 PM
(http://www.rpg-hq.net/fishnchips/wow_profiler/img/Interface/Icons/Spell_Nature_Drowsy.jpg)

It dispels a magic effect too so any hunter who pvps should know the icon.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Sjofn on July 01, 2010, 03:27:25 PM
But that's the warlock symbol.  :ye_gods:

I would totally miss that, as I would be assuming tranquil shot's icon would have an arrow. Like all my other shots.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 01, 2010, 03:40:36 PM
So make it in a macro and assign it a different icon.
And the /train emote and a /say "Last stop!"
People love silly macros for common abilities.  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: caladein on July 02, 2010, 07:09:57 PM
I kind of hate Halion, if only because everything is the same God damn color.


Title: Re: Patch 3.3
Post by: Simond on July 03, 2010, 03:44:48 AM
There's a 'phat purpz' joke in there somewhere.  :awesome_for_real: