Patch 3.3

[Sheepherder]

I used to tank with Spell Power armor.  Let alone the fact that hit and spell hit used to be different.  Though I admit, juggling defense, intellect, and spell power was kind of fun.  As Sjofn said, Warriors started off as the strong class of Vanilla WoW.  They were the only viable tank.

The point, you missed it.

If you need a little refresher, refer back to countless posts about how hunter were inconsistent mechanically or had no clear purpose.  Compare the provided evidence of that to any other class in the game.  Profit.

[Sjofn]

I gave two examples of classes I think could make the same argument. I suspect shamans could too, but I didn't play them much in vanilla because I was primarily playing Alliance.

[Ingmar]

Man, but compare them to warriors!  Warriors were incredibly internally consistent at lauch, we had Thunderclap in all appropriate stances; stat mechanics were incredibly simple, as opposed to needing, oh, lets say spell hit, for random abilities that were absolutely critical for proper function; our gear was always well itemized, without the profusion of useless stats on tier gear like you saw with hunters; and of course, there were the purposefully obtuse hunter mechanics, like having to feign death in order to trap, as opposed to warriors, who could perform any function vital to their primary role without having to take a rage penalty or make a macro.


Ingmar, the other option to equalize parry/dodge would be to increase the cost per rating of dodge, and lower the diminishing returns threshold.  Counterbalance that with a buff.  Maybe de-haste on the origin of the dodged attack (-40% haste for one attack).

Responding to the first bit. As someone who has played a warrior since release, I see that post should really be green, but for the people who think you're serious:

- We *still* use spell hit for taunt. Thunderclap also used spell hit at release.
- Our gear wasn't anything like well-itemized at release. Our dungeon set was covered in spirit. Warrior tier 1 for example was itemized well enough if you were a tank, but horribly if you were dps specced. Yes, we dropped spirit in the raid gear while hunters still had to carry a little, but they weren't the only ones. Ask the rogues how much they liked the strength on their T1, or shamans and paladins how much they liked the spirit. Or ask ANY of the classes with multiple roles how they liked having gear that was only itemized for one. From that perspective, hunters were much better off than most classes, since at least all of them could use the gear they were given to fulfill their role.
- Mechanically speaking of course, we had to stance dance for several important abilities (berserker rage, thunderclap, mocking blow if a taunt missed, etc.) meaning rage would go out the window, etc.

Basically, every class has gone through major revisions. Some less than hunters (rogues would be an example) some far more (hi2u paladins and druids). That's life in an MMO.

-------------------------

Regarding the second bit, you're still talking about a change that would have a ripple effect throughout the levels and might change balance for the worse at lower gear points than Icecrown. They chose the less dangerous bandaid fix instead, which I can't really blame them for. They're going to have to do a major rebalance of defensive stats when +def goes away in the expansion anyway, why do that work twice if you don't really need to?

[Fordel]

While were going off on the tangent, Warriors have easily been the most consistently powerful class across the entire game for the length of the entire game.

It's only in WotLK that they haven't been the clear cut BEST at anything they do, merely in the top 3. 



Yet they can still bitch like they are the worst class ever created. I'm having a hard time thinking of a class community to oblivious to their own power level in relation to everyone else in the game.

[Nebu]

I'm having a hard time thinking of a class community to oblivious to their own power level in relation to everyone else in the game.

Rogues, Warlocks, Druids, and Paladins?

[Ingmar]

I think your experiences are colored by playing also-ran tank classes.  

Rogues are even worse about that anyway.  

[AutomaticZen]

I used to tank with Spell Power armor.  Let alone the fact that hit and spell hit used to be different.  Though I admit, juggling defense, intellect, and spell power was kind of fun.  As Sjofn said, Warriors started off as the strong class of Vanilla WoW.  They were the only viable tank.

The point, you missed it.

If you need a little refresher, refer back to countless posts about how hunter were inconsistent mechanically or had no clear purpose.  Compare the provided evidence of that to any other class in the game.  Profit.

You know what I loved, running out of mana while tanking, becuase BoSanc was a twinkle in Blizzard's eye.  Or getting Strength on tanking armor, because it was wonderfully useful to me.  Or the fact that we didn't have a taunt until BC, and the taunt they did give us was Righteous Defense, still one of the most ass-backward taunts in the game.  Righteous Defense being based on spell hit until 2.3.  Or refreshing seals after judgement.  That was cool.  I could keep going, but the point is this:

Protection is a completely different tree and playstyle from vanilla WoW.  Hell, it's completely different from BC.  Our gear was horribly itemized at times.

And that's not even going into LolRet in BC.

Rogues, Warlocks, Druids, and Paladins?

Prot is awesome right now, and I fear only the harsh harsh nerf bat swinging in our direction.

[Sjofn]

Yet they can still bitch like they are the worst class ever created. I'm having a hard time thinking of a class community to oblivious to their own power level in relation to everyone else in the game.

DKs, imo.

[Fordel]

DK's are another one, yea. They were especially bad since by definition, every DK is a re-roll and should know better.


Rogues know full well how powerful they are, they just think that's the way it should be, since in their minds, it's the trade-off for not bringing any real raid buffs or whatever. "So what if I can kill anyone, anywhere without them being able to fight back in any meaningful manner at all? I can't heal can I?!?! GAWD!"


Druids and Paladins spent the greater part of the first few years of the game as at best, comic relief. They knew exactly where they were and are, it's why creates such back lash now when ever there is even a hint of a nerf (it's even prevented nerfs, especially in regards to tank balance, simply because Blizzard is afraid of undoing what little progress they've made in tank diversity). They also suffer from the fact their classes split in 14 different ways, so at any given time, there is probably a part of the class that does, in fact, totally suck.


Warlocks are just emo, like hunters. It must be something to do with being a pet class   

Mages are emo about Warlocks, or any hybrid casting DPS'er that can actually DPS. Mostly Warlocks though.


Priests get split into two categories. ShadowPriests, that are sad that they don't have guaranteed raid spots anymore and Healing Priests, that are OFFENDED that any class but priests actually have the ability to cast heals!!! I still remember all the threads about Healing Touch and how it was going to sideline all priest forever back in vanilla. Back when druids were taken to raids solely to innervate the fucking priests ><


Shamans are a lot like paladins and druids in that they get split half a dozen different ways, but the things they are whiny about are Totems (much much less these days thanks to the changes) and their raid spots. If you go far back enough, you have some lamenting about the vanilla windfury days where they could randomly one-shot people.


Warriors though, they've spent the entire game being dominate at everything they could ever want to do with the class. DK's have had a longer 'down' period then Warriors at this point. Warriors have literally had entire aspects of the game shaped around them. Class design 'rules' didn't apply to them. Shared gear would default towards them.

But good lord, Druids have 3% higher effective health, how ever will we fucking survive!



I'm totally not bitter, not at all. 

[Gobbeldygook]

Psf.  Back in the day (tm), people rolled shadow priest to PVP because shadow priests melt face.

[Simond]

Oddly enough, the warrior entitlement complex seems to have carried over from EQ where they were even more whiny despite genuinely and unargueable being the tank class. I blame Furor, mainly out of spite.

(Did I mention I had a SK in EQ?  )

[K9]

I remain slightly baffled when people complain about priests being overpowered. Priests are sometimes good, generally average in my experience.

[Lantyssa]

I'm totally not bitter, not at all. 

Then to top it off you see a fledgling Balance Druid's spec and must weep for humanity...

[WindupAtheist]

All level 71-80 Battlegrounds will now award victors 25 Arena points in addition to Honor.

[Gobbeldygook]

All level 71-80 Battlegrounds will now award victors 25 Arena points in addition to Honor.

This doesn't mean as much as you probably think it does.  Here's the complete list of things you can buy with arena points without an arena rating:

-Commendations of Bravery, 2k honor for 100 points
-Cheaper versions of the honor set gear you can already buy (e.g. the deadly chest costs 49.6k honor OR 12k honor and 350 arena points)

and that's it.

[Merusk]

Still nicer than having to gind up a shitload of Honor for gear as a fresh 80.  I got two pieces on my Horde Pally and said "fuck this."

[Gobbeldygook]

As an addendum, the guy behind MMO-champ is getting so lazy he can't even copy/paste from the patch notes correctly.

All level 71-80 Battleground daily quests will now award 25 Arena points in addition to their current rewards.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?sid=1&topicId=20126978820

[WindupAtheist]

Never mind, it's 25 arena points for completing that bullshit daily BG quest. Wow, why even bother?

[Fordel]

I'm totally not bitter, not at all. 

Then to top it off you see a fledgling Balance Druid's spec and must weep for humanity...

You didn't even spec Force of Nature! 

[Sheepherder]

They're going to have to do a major rebalance of defensive stats when +def goes away in the expansion anyway, why do that work twice if you don't really need to?

The defense change is coming in the pre-patch.  All "but crazy imbalance at other levels ranges" and "need to work on it twice" arguments are moot, because that's exactly what they are doing.  In fact, I'd suspect they are going to end up doing an overhaul of all defense gear 1-60 twice, due to Cataclysm old world changes.

EDIT: Strikethrough for accuracy.

[Lantyssa]

You didn't even spec Force of Nature! 

No, no!  I had Force of Nature!  It was Insect Swarm and few other, "critical", things I was missing.

I respeced yesterday.  You'll be happier I think, as long as you don't look at my equipment...

[Fordel]

That's right, you didn't have Insect Swarm!

BEEEEEEs

[Xanthippe]

What's your opinion on what Blizzard are doing with Hunters in Cataclysm?

I don't have an opinion, because I don't know what Blizzard is doing with hunters.  I haven't known what Blizzard intends for hunters since Outlands.

I'm just cranky because I loved the hunter class from vanilla WoW and loved it more in Outlands, but am not enjoying it much now.  Being told stuff like "pet classes shouldn't be very powerful because they're so easy" and then seeing the joke warlocks have become pisses me off.  (Yes, I have a warlock, and have since vanilla WoW).

I can faceroll on my DK or my warlock and still do better than on my hunter who struggles. 

It's frustrating to me because it's so fucking arbitrary.

But you all are right, this is a mmorpg and I should be used to it by now.  I just wish I knew what hunters are supposed to be, and I wish GC would stop coating it in the whole "easy to play class should do less damage" when that is the biggest load of horseshit to come out of the south end of a northbound Trigger.  (I also have a pally.)

Mostly I'm just pissy because hormonally I am back in junior high again. Getting old sucks.  I should start a guild called Hot Flashes.

[Rasix]

 

[Selby]

I can faceroll on my DK or my warlock and still do better than on my hunter who struggles.

This just seems odd.  In my old raiding guild, the only characters that could out-DPS my mage were a hunter and a rogue.  And it was close with those 2.  This hunter was regularly pulling down 5500-6000 DPS on most boss fights and I was hitting in the 5000-5200 mark.  There are a huge number of bad hunters though, as I ran with one tonight who did 1100DPS in 219-226 gear and didn't think that was low.

[WindupAtheist]

Oh god damn it. So I was looking at transcripts of voice files for 3.3 and...

[K9]

LORELOL

[Merusk]

I can faceroll on my DK or my warlock and still do better than on my hunter who struggles.

This just seems odd.  In my old raiding guild, the only characters that could out-DPS my mage were a hunter and a rogue.  And it was close with those 2.  This hunter was regularly pulling down 5500-6000 DPS on most boss fights and I was hitting in the 5000-5200 mark.  There are a huge number of bad hunters though, as I ran with one tonight who did 1100DPS in 219-226 gear and didn't think that was low.

Xanthippe is a PVP lover and last I knew plays only on PVP servers.  Take most of what she says and apply it to that, not raiding.

[Simond]

Oh god damn it. So I was looking at transcripts of voice files for 3.3 and...

Counterpoint: Good news, everyone!

[Selby]

Xanthippe is a PVP lover and last I knew plays only on PVP servers.  Take most of what she says and apply it to that, not raiding.

Which is a completely different situation.  Hunters haven't ever really been that dominant in PvP that I can remember.

[Nebu]

Any success that I've had on my hunter in pvp was due to the opponent playing badly.  If I can kite them around the map before having 10 rogues jump me, I can beat most classes.  The refresh on disengage often isn't fast enough to keep my distance though, particularly against DK's that will just pull me to their group and lol while they gang bang me. 

Hunters do well when they have group support in pvp so that you can focus all of your energy on dps.  When forced to use utility, you lose so much dps that your ability to drop targets goes away fast. 

[Morfiend]

Xanthippe is a PVP lover and last I knew plays only on PVP servers.  Take most of what she says and apply it to that, not raiding.

Which is a completely different situation.  Hunters haven't ever really been that dominant in PvP that I can remember.

Maybe not in Arena due to the old dead zone and the small size of arenas, but in BGs and open world there was a time when they where just fucking horribly OPed. I think it was some time in BC.

[Ingmar]

Being told stuff like "pet classes shouldn't be very powerful because they're so easy"

But that isn't what he said? The thing you're thinking of (assuming I'm thinking of the right quote) was explaining why BM spec does a little less damage than survival/marksmanship within the hunter class. It wasn't about cross-class comparison at all.

[Sjofn]

Oh god damn it. So I was looking at transcripts of voice files for 3.3 and...

Thinking about this some,

[WindupAtheist]

Thinking about this some,

That makes way too much sense.