Patch 3.3

[AutomaticZen]

The buff is still a fucking retarded solution, when they could fix it by merging all the avoidance DR's into one and equalizing the value of dodge/parry.  Of course, parry still has the haste proc, but that isn't exactly game-breaking, or even wanted in some cases (tanks under the parry cap, which is probably most of them).

Nah, the real way to fix it is just to keep the ratings lower. The system they have is a little obtuse but it works fine if you input the right numbers into it to start with; the problem is that the rating numbers on gear are just too high for the conversion rate they have, for the very end content. Its fine in lower instances/gear - changing the conversion rate would negatively impact lower-geared players and raise the difficulty of lower instances probably more than they want. This is the most sensible/least-likely-to-introduce-crazy-bugs way to patch it at this point in the content cycle, and they can rebalance it at 80-85 in the expansion patch.

As GC said, the only reason this happened is because they added extra tiers that weren't originally planned for with the Heroic Raids.  Once Heroic 10 and 25 hit the scene, it all went pear shaped.

[Sheepherder]

Nah, the real way to fix it is just to keep the ratings lower. The system they have is a little obtuse but it works fine if you input the right numbers into it to start with; the problem is that the rating numbers on gear are just too high for the conversion rate they have, for the very end content. Its fine in lower instances/gear - changing the conversion rate would negatively impact lower-geared players and raise the difficulty of lower instances probably more than they want. This is the most sensible/least-likely-to-introduce-crazy-bugs way to patch it at this point in the content cycle, and they can rebalance it at 80-85 in the expansion patch.

Or just drop the value of parry to be equal to dodge, and merge the DR's into one; because avoidance is largely moot until raiding, the haste on parry is largely irrelevant to the stat's value for tanking (and would buff warrior rage generation when overgeared, but hey, it's not like they've grappled with that one for five years running), and you would have to be pants on head stupid to break the game by modifying a few variables in a polynomial function that already exists.  If your design can be broken by a single tier of gear, the equal (at least) of which would have been introduced in the patch where it has to be fixed anyways, it was broken to begin with.

Or maybe they should just kludge a random buff in, which has already broken the PTR by applying zone-wide outside the instance, probably due to miscommunication between world design and scripting people or lack of documentation as to where a certain actor is meant to be placed.

[SurfD]

I wonder if they can code the Icecrown Radiance thing to affect DK's Runestrike the way that resilience affects abilities that proc off of crits.

You know, If X ability crits, it does Y,  but if resil on the target prevents the crit from being a crit, the Proc effect of the "attack that would have crit" still occurs.

Maybe DK's will still get to Spam Runestrike because there will be something along the lines of "You would have dodged that attack, except for the Zone wide debuff, so here is your runestrike proc"?

[Simond]

Nah, they'll just cripple DKs and then wonder why everyone's using druid tanks.

[Gobbeldygook]

Nah, they'll just cripple DKs and then wonder why everyone's using druid tanks.

This will not 'cripple' DK tanks.  It's a 10% reduction in TPS.  Outside of gimmick encounters like hodir, I'm unaware of any tank having actual issues with single target threat.

[K9]

Just in case you ever wanted more proof that Ghostcrawler is clueless about many things:

I don't think a world-wide LFG channel would be something you'd really want. It would immediately become the global chat channel for trade, spam and Chuck Norris jokes.

On live it's restricted to people using the LFG tool. The new dungeon tool honestly makes matches so quickly under most conditions that that implementation won't work. We feared people would just use the /trade channel if we didn't make a similar /lfg channel.

No, I really like a world-wide LFG channel. I sit LF groups to Wintergrasp or the Storm Peaks most of the time in case I see someone making something interesting. I don't want to have to sit in some shithole like Dalaran whenever I want a group.

Fucking clownshoes.

[slog]

Just in case you ever wanted more proof that Ghostcrawler is clueless about many things:

I don't think a world-wide LFG channel would be something you'd really want. It would immediately become the global chat channel for trade, spam and Chuck Norris jokes.

On live it's restricted to people using the LFG tool. The new dungeon tool honestly makes matches so quickly under most conditions that that implementation won't work. We feared people would just use the /trade channel if we didn't make a similar /lfg channel.

No, I really like a world-wide LFG channel. I sit LF groups to Wintergrasp or the Storm Peaks most of the time in case I see someone making something interesting. I don't want to have to sit in some shithole like Dalaran whenever I want a group.

Fucking clownshoes.

Except he's right and you are not. 

[Xanthippe]

Ghostcrawler is wrong about so many things.  I wish they'd put him on something else, I can't stand the decisions he's made.  I think the game's gone in the wrong direction for the most part since he became lead, and I have little desire left to play.

[Kail]

No, I really like a world-wide LFG channel. I sit LF groups to Wintergrasp or the Storm Peaks most of the time in case I see someone making something interesting. I don't want to have to sit in some shithole like Dalaran whenever I want a group.

I think LFG was global for a while.  It was not pretty.  It was changed when people started migrating to "unofficial" LFG channels since the actual LFG channel was clogged with general babble.  This made it take longer for groups to form, since everyone was spread out between the LFG channel and however many unofficial LFG channels there were.

In general, I wouldn't be averse to some kind of global general chat channel, but putting global chat in a channel with a specific purpose throws the signal/noise ratio out the window.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I don't know about you but trade is already a cesspool on my server and that's JUST in cities, I shudder to think of a worldwide channel.

[WindupAtheist]

They need to add a global general chat (for anyone sane to turn off) and a global LFG channel. "But if we add more channels our users will talk in them, and they're idiots!" is a gobsmackingly stupid reason to give for not adding them.

[K9]

I don't know about you but trade is already a cesspool on my server and that's JUST in cities, I shudder to think of a worldwide channel.

There is a global LFG channel, which is why his argument is so retarded. He's saying that a global LFG channel would be terrible, yet if you sit in the LFG tool you get a global LFG channel and it works pretty well on my server at least. Forcing people to sit in a shithole like Dalaran is just backwards. Trade is already used as a city-based LFG channel and it blows; whereas the global channel linked to the LFG tool is fairly sane, and allows me to play alts/herb/quest and keep my eyes open for interesting stuff. What GC wants to to is nix the channel that actually works and add a second version of the shitty channel.

They need to add a global general chat (for anyone sane to turn off) and a global LFG channel. "But if we add more channels our users will talk in them, and they're idiots!" is a gobsmackingly stupid reason to give for not adding them.

This too; nobody is forced to join any channels.

[Sjofn]

Nah, they'll just cripple DKs and then wonder why everyone's using druid tanks.

This will not 'cripple' DK tanks.  It's a 10% reduction in TPS.  Outside of gimmick encounters like hodir, I'm unaware of any tank having actual issues with single target threat.

Why do you hate hyperbole!

Also, I like Ghostcrawler. Sometimes I think he is wrong, but I feel that way about everyone on earth at some time or another. And given I enjoy WotLK more than original and TBC, I hope he sticks around. 

[WindupAtheist]

This too; nobody is forced to join any channels.

I mean shit, they allow their forums to exist. They must love stupidity. Some guy is spamming creationist links all over the place while the CMs are in bed, people are spamming him back with fucking Time Cube shit, and the whole thing has gone even more to hell than usual.

[Fordel]

Every time I think the WoW forums are retarded, I just browse YouTube comments.


Relative to that, they are the pinnacle of civilized debate.

[Numtini]

I view the loss of the global LFG channel as a huge pain. I'm between guilds and I pick up so many raids and groups answering LFG's for my main while I'm on an alt. Or vice versa. I do not want to sit on my main in a city farting around hoping something comes together.

Any issues of asshatery in the channel can be solved by simply throttling to one use per minute, which should probably be done for both trade and LFG regardless of anything else.

Seriously, what is Bliz's obsession with screwed up LFG systems.

[WindupAtheist]

Long ago, when I still actually played my paladin, I used to loooooove when four or five Horde would chase me across AV. I liked to see how far I could get before they managed to kill me (if I got far enough, they would get killed themselves by the Alliance zerg). It was the main time I'd use LoH, I could feel their poutrage through the internets whenever I fired that off. <3

Kinda random to respond to this much later, but my favorite neener-neener move as a paladin is definitely bubble dancing. Did that AV tower finally burn just as half a dozen Horde were running up the stairs to reclaim it? You know you're gonna die, pop the bubble and give them 12 seconds of dancing first! Are you at 1580/1600 resources in AB? Jump into the middle of half a dozen Horde, pop the bubble, and dance as the game ends!

[slog]

Long ago, when I still actually played my paladin, I used to loooooove when four or five Horde would chase me across AV. I liked to see how far I could get before they managed to kill me (if I got far enough, they would get killed themselves by the Alliance zerg). It was the main time I'd use LoH, I could feel their poutrage through the internets whenever I fired that off. <3

Kinda random to respond to this much later, but my favorite neener-neener move as a paladin is definitely bubble dancing. Did that AV tower finally burn just as half a dozen Horde were running up the stairs to reclaim it? You know you're gonna die, pop the bubble and give them 12 seconds of dancing first! Are you at 1580/1600 resources in AB? Jump into the middle of half a dozen Horde, pop the bubble, and dance as the game ends!

I used to love to dispell those paly bubbles.

[Xanthippe]

They need to add a global general chat (for anyone sane to turn off) and a global LFG channel. "But if we add more channels our users will talk in them, and they're idiots!" is a gobsmackingly stupid reason to give for not adding them.

Exactly.

[Ingmar]

Ghostcrawler is wrong about so many things.  I wish they'd put him on something else, I can't stand the decisions he's made.  I think the game's gone in the wrong direction for the most part since he became lead, and I have little desire left to play.

I think you're probably ascribing a lot of decisions to him that were made by the whole team, including Tom Chilton, who is still the lead game designer. GC is the lead systems designer, not the guy in charge of everything ever.

I also think people in general tend to seriously overestimate the amount of 'bad' decisions they've made, but that's how every game ever has been I guess.

[Xanthippe]

Ghostcrawler is wrong about so many things.  I wish they'd put him on something else, I can't stand the decisions he's made.  I think the game's gone in the wrong direction for the most part since he became lead, and I have little desire left to play.

I think you're probably ascribing a lot of decisions to him that were made by the whole team, including Tom Chilton, who is still the lead game designer. GC is the lead systems designer, not the guy in charge of everything ever.

I also think people in general tend to seriously overestimate the amount of 'bad' decisions they've made, but that's how every game ever has been I guess.

You don't play a hunter, do you?

[Simond]

What's your opinion on what Blizzard are doing with Hunters in Cataclysm?

[Ingmar]

Ghostcrawler is wrong about so many things.  I wish they'd put him on something else, I can't stand the decisions he's made.  I think the game's gone in the wrong direction for the most part since he became lead, and I have little desire left to play.

I think you're probably ascribing a lot of decisions to him that were made by the whole team, including Tom Chilton, who is still the lead game designer. GC is the lead systems designer, not the guy in charge of everything ever.

I also think people in general tend to seriously overestimate the amount of 'bad' decisions they've made, but that's how every game ever has been I guess.

You don't play a hunter, do you?

I do have a hunter, though he's only 74 or so; he's overpowered by a longshot for leveling content, but I haven't raided with him or done much more than random battleground stuff on the pvp side. Our hunters seem to do just fine, though, our top dps is often a hunter except when they have a dps-lowering assignment in a fight. Is there an actual specific complaint you have?

[Sjofn]

I have a hunter. She doesn't get to be my main because we have a thousand DPSers, plus I enjoy tanking (I have a DK for that, so if the hunter complaint is waaah nerfs, I have a lot of experience with those anyway). But I feel I know the class quite well, and when I do get to play her because all the DPSers came down with swine flu or something, she's a) fun and b) near the top in DPS. She's the only character I've really PvPed with in this expansion, too, and I don't find that particularly lacking either.

[Merusk]

The hunter complaints come from 4 years of playing the yo-yo as one.  The only reason they're doing so well these days is that there's more DKs to cry about than hunters, so they've avoided the down swing that's been a part of the cycle since the beginning.

PVE dps has always been solid.  They've just fucked with mechanics so much over the years it's gotten tiresome for many.  PVP is somewhat reasonable now, but only in BGs which, according to the attitude of the PVP designers "Don't Count"  as real pvp.

Really, it's just GC that most folks have a problem with.  He's consistently shown himself to be either out of touch or in over his head.

[K9]

GC's problem is that he opens his mouth too much. He'd be a better dev if he just kept himself off the forums.

[Ingmar]

Really, it's just GC that most folks have a problem with.  He's consistently shown himself to be either out of touch or in over his head.

See, I just don't buy this. Consistently? Sure he (they?) get things wrong occasionally, but its kind of nonsensical to suggest that the game is falling apart mechanically, which would be the real consequence if he actually was either out of touch or in over his head.

[Sheepherder]

I though he was a little bit shit-for-brains because he suggested haste is a good warrior stat.  But really, the game as a whole is in a far better place than it's ever been.  No particular class has any reason to complain; some specs are underpowered, but most classes have at least one viable DPS spec, and where available a viable tank/heal spec.

[Musashi]

I thought they allowed GC to be the 'mouthpiece,' so to speak, in order to have an official voice from somebody who's actually on the team, and not just some PR monkey.  That's just an impression I may have gotten from somewhere legit, or not.  Can't remember.  I know he's put his foot in his mouth sometimes, and has irked some with his off-the-cuff style.  But I think a lot of the ire ascribed to him is ill-formed.  He's just a guy answering questions as honestly as he can in an impossible environment, as near as I can tell.  Of course he's going to make mistakes here and there.  Essentially, I think he should be commended for manning up and taking it on the chin sometimes, and not pussing out by using a PR intermediary.  And of course people are going to put more on him than he deserves.  Just ask Cat, or that other guy who went crazy.

The forums exist because it gives people a place to voice their frustration that is way cheaper to maintain than the extra CSR that would be required if the forums weren't there.  They probably have about 50,000 concurrent users on just an average day on those forums.  That's a lot of smoke to blow for even the savviest phone jockey.  This way, when shit hits the fan, one guy can ask/answer an the disaster is averted.  The rest of the time it's a cesspool to be avoided at all costs.  But it's existence being an affront to civilized humanity is a small price for them to pay.  Though I don't know if you can say the same about the poor souls who get paid to live on them.  I think I'd probably last about ten minutes.

[Fordel]

Seriously, the WoW Forums for their traffic and demographics, are really not all that bad.

[Sjofn]

The hunter complaints come from 4 years of playing the yo-yo as one.  The only reason they're doing so well these days is that there's more DKs to cry about than hunters, so they've avoided the down swing that's been a part of the cycle since the beginning.

PVE dps has always been solid.  They've just fucked with mechanics so much over the years it's gotten tiresome for many.  PVP is somewhat reasonable now, but only in BGs which, according to the attitude of the PVP designers "Don't Count"  as real pvp.

Really, it's just GC that most folks have a problem with.  He's consistently shown himself to be either out of touch or in over his head.

I have had my hunter since day one, I am aware of the various hunter changes through the life of the game. I still think most hunters are giant whiners about the whole thing. Hunters are hardly the only class that is extremely different from their original form, and hardly the only class to go from overpowered to a little sucky.

Constant balance and change is part of MMOs, and the handwringing about how hunters have been chaaaaanged and it's tiring and means no one knows what they're doing is really ... weird.

[Sheepherder]

Man, but compare them to warriors!  Warriors were incredibly internally consistent at lauch, we had Thunderclap in all appropriate stances; stat mechanics were incredibly simple, as opposed to needing, oh, lets say spell hit, for random abilities that were absolutely critical for proper function; our gear was always well itemized, without the profusion of useless stats on tier gear like you saw with hunters; and of course, there were the purposefully obtuse hunter mechanics, like having to feign death in order to trap, as opposed to warriors, who could perform any function vital to their primary role without having to take a rage penalty or make a macro.


Ingmar, the other option to equalize parry/dodge would be to increase the cost per rating of dodge, and lower the diminishing returns threshold.  Counterbalance that with a buff.  Maybe de-haste on the origin of the dodged attack (-40% haste for one attack).

[Sjofn]

How about comparing them to paladins or druids instead. 

[AutomaticZen]

Man, but compare them to warriors!  Warriors were incredibly internally consistent at lauch, we had Thunderclap in all appropriate stances; stat mechanics were incredibly simple, as opposed to needing, oh, lets say spell hit, for random abilities that were absolutely critical for proper function; our gear was always well itemized, without the profusion of useless stats on tier gear like you saw with hunters; and of course, there were the purposefully obtuse hunter mechanics, like having to feign death in order to trap, as opposed to warriors, who could perform any function vital to their primary role without having to take a rage penalty or make a macro.

I used to tank with Spell Power armor.  Let alone the fact that hit and spell hit used to be different.  Though I admit, juggling defense, intellect, and spell power was kind of fun.  As Sjofn said, Warriors started off as the strong class of Vanilla WoW.  They were the only viable tank.

[slog]

MMORPG players that complain that the Devs suck on a game that makes millions and millions of dollars in profit every month?

I'm shocked.