Cataclysm

[Merusk]

Is there a good reason we're rehashing 5 year old class drama at this point anyway?

We're all waiting for the to drop, so there's nothing better to do than pointing out warriors are all a bunch of prima donnas with entitlement complexes.  

To bad we run the raids!  

Really? News to me, we haven't had a warrior tank in a year.


As to raid forced raid progression vs badges.  It was that way in EQ.. it sucked.  Nobody goes back to help folks, so you'd have been sitting on your ass or not subbing.  Or you're relying on (mostly vain) hopes that your guild will want to carry you until you're geared-up.  With badges they have mini-resets for folks to catch-up or take a break for a raid cycle then jump back in.   It's a better system and thinking otherwise is either nostalgia or a lack of experience in the crappiness of forced tiered raiding.  

That's also discounting that when it WAS in vogue there were no other choices out there.  It's hard enough keeping 25 folks regularly interested in raiding for an entire expansion cycle as things are in "too easy casual-land."  You want to force that bullshit on the player base you'll either watch it evaporate or realize you're spending a lot of time and money pushing out 'features' that nobody uses.  Last i checked this was WoW, not Microsoft Office.

If you're having to "run heroics for a month" I don't know what you're doing.  Most heroics give you 5 badges per run, which can be accomplished in 15-20 mins.  It takes 210 badges to get a full set of T9, meaning 42 runs.  Run 5 a day and it'll take you 9 days to gear-up.  That doesn't include getting a nice weapon out of one of the IC 5-mans.  Find a PUG to do a WRQ or two in that 8 days and you knock a few runs off and get some frost badges to boot.  Run a pug or two for VOA and you might get lucky and pick up some pieces, but you'll snag some additional badges at the very least.  

In short, only if you're too time-starved or friendless to run more than one dungeon a day will it ever take you a month to gear up.  If either of those are the case, why the fuck are you gearing-up as you're not going to be raiding.

[Evil Elvis]

5 mannable?  I have no problem with that.  Maybe buffing it to the point where 5 peeps can do it sure.  I still don't see the major difference of pugging 5 people and 10 people.  People did i a lot with UBRS back in the day.  That's what I'm looking at right now. 

UBRS wasn't as complex though, fight-wise, was it? I honestly don't remember, I only went into that place, like ... twice. Ever. Because I had no interest in doing a PUG that consisted of more than 5 people.  I've never had a good experience in a real PUG that was more than 5 people.

You just made me remember the days of pugging General Drakkisath.
: RAGE :

[Paelos]

True the badge system was popular as a way to get through the content to the next level. However, it is starting to grate on me now. Everyone wants to do heroics constantly, and I get zero peace in the game when I log in due to this fact. Do they need all the badges? Hell no, they are moderately gearing their 4th alt who will probably never raid seriously, but that doesn't stop them from asking me to do the damn daily. It's something to do, we need to the do daily, want a daily, who needs the daily, DAILY!!!

I don't need the daily anymore. I'm sick of the damn thing. I literally stopped logging into the game for the last two weeks because of that fact. The badge thing is helping people burn through the gear levels almost so fast that there is no point in even finishing an instance beyond epeen. Why would I bother getting into the last wings of ICC 25 man when I can grind 6 bosses for about 2-3 months in a raid, fill in the gaps with 10 man gear, and hit whatever magical gearscore people seem to care about?

To me, I used to think I was totally motivated by the challenge, which I am in 10 man. However, 25 mans are just loot pinatas to me now, and I got sick of trying to bother with the extra hassle. I won't miss them in the next iteration.

[Typhon]

Honestly though, I think they've gone too far. I consider flying mounts, LFD and many things regarding badges to be irretractable long-term mistakes. I know I won't get many to agree about the flying mounts, but I really do feel they were a mistake and not in the "not hardcore enough" sense.

MUDflation I can agree is a problem.  Flying mounts I can see an argument for since they change the dynamics of moving about the world and trivialize getting from point A to B.  (There's good and bad to it, and counters they could implement but haven't.)

As the owner of two green proto-drakes though, I don't care.  They're probably my favorite creature design in the game.

Flying around is just plain fun. See: CoX.

Completely agree - IT'S THE FLYING ITSELF THAT IS FUN.  "Experiencing" the tedium of fighting your way through the environment to get to the area you need to be isn't fun for me.

If designers want me to have to fight my way to a specific point, put that point inside a building, dungeon, or another plane of existence... but let me fly across the world to get there because it's just SO DAMN COOL.

[Draegan]

Badge gear feels like a cheat code almost among other things.

One that they added deliberately to make sure people can actually see the content they're creating in a reasonable time frame, which is something huge numbers of people had been asking for for years. The badge system has been massively popular ever since they added the first version of it in TBC, participation in various types of endgame PVE massively increased in TBC compared to vanilla and then massively increased again in Wrath compared to TBC, all because of accessibility - and the badge system is a central part of that.

Remember, TBC raiding essentially forced you to do what you're suggesting via attunement quests (must do instances in order), and they got rid of it because it was massively unpopular. Basically I think you are severely overestimating the number of people who would actually want what you're suggesting. Blizzard is always going to cater to the majority, that is why they have money hats.

EDIT: I used the word massively a few too many times in that post.

I'm all for getting people to the end.  I'm in no way advocating the cockblock that was Vanilla or TBC raiding.  I'm advocating progressive raiding that as the expansion matures the opening tiers get easier and easier.  

What I'm advocating is that in roughly the same amount of time it takes someone to get full badge loot to be almost ready to raid ICC, it will take someone someone to go through 3 tiers or raiding.

It takes a shit load of time to be full badge loot.  It takes, what 10 dungeons runs for a chest pieces and maybe 5 or 6 for other items?  You're also assuming you're getting drops from the ICC5 mans that you can't even random for until your gear is good enough.

For the average player doing 3-5 dungeons a day, playing everyday, it's still going to take them a few weeks to get fully ready (assuming gold isn't an issue for enchants and gems).  That's only being shortened with help from friends.

Whats wrong with having a player run Naxx a few times in a week to get him the gear he needs to be ready for Ulduar to be ready for TOC to be ready for ICC finally?

That's what I'm advocating.  I'm trying to get the old raids to the point where you're not farming them like old school raiding where you do it once per week for months at a time until you're fully geared.  I want to manipulated the RNG, the amount of loot and the ease of doing the raid to the point that it takes 1-2 weeks of steady play to get passed it.  So if you're making a new character, and you don't know anyone you can go from 80 to ICC ready in about a month, month and a half.

You can even create incentives for overgeared players to go back.  Perhaps you can flag yourself and mats/gold drops from bosses that you kill.  Imagine if you can farm Naxx and each boss drops a stack or multiple stacks of cloth/ore/herbs?  Or enchants scrolls or gems?

In the end, I think people think I'm trying to make everyone have to do old raids in the way they were done back in the day.  That's not the case.  I agree with Blizzard in allowing players see the high end dungeons where they didn't see them in prior expansions.  I just would of gone about it a different way that didn't invalidate content over the course of an expansion.  I want to create the same experience, albeit easier, for new players or returning players that veteran players had.  

[caladein]

True the badge system was popular as a way to get through the content to the next level. However, it is starting to grate on me now. Everyone wants to do heroics constantly, and I get zero peace in the game when I log in due to this fact. Do they need all the badges? Hell no, they are moderately gearing their 4th alt who will probably never raid seriously, but that doesn't stop them from asking me to do the damn daily. It's something to do, we need to the do daily, want a daily, who needs the daily, DAILY!!!

I don't need the daily anymore. I'm sick of the damn thing. I literally stopped logging into the game for the last two weeks because of that fact.

The answer to that is telling people to get bent.  Really, I'm not going to bug someone to speed up my fourth character's queue by ten minutes when I can just go and do my Jewelcrafting daily instead.

That said, I really prefer trivializing earlier raid content to being stuck in it forever.  I really like being able to gear up a character to within ear-shot of my main just because I feel like trying it out.

If anything, the badge-powered gear resets have put the gear treadmill in starker relief, and if that helps people think about what they want to do, that's a huge plus for me.

[Ingmar]

True the badge system was popular as a way to get through the content to the next level. However, it is starting to grate on me now. Everyone wants to do heroics constantly, and I get zero peace in the game when I log in due to this fact. Do they need all the badges? Hell no, they are moderately gearing their 4th alt who will probably never raid seriously, but that doesn't stop them from asking me to do the damn daily. It's something to do, we need to the do daily, want a daily, who needs the daily, DAILY!!!

I don't need the daily anymore. I'm sick of the damn thing. I literally stopped logging into the game for the last two weeks because of that fact. The badge thing is helping people burn through the gear levels almost so fast that there is no point in even finishing an instance beyond epeen. Why would I bother getting into the last wings of ICC 25 man when I can grind 6 bosses for about 2-3 months in a raid, fill in the gaps with 10 man gear, and hit whatever magical gearscore people seem to care about?

To me, I used to think I was totally motivated by the challenge, which I am in 10 man. However, 25 mans are just loot pinatas to me now, and I got sick of trying to bother with the extra hassle. I won't miss them in the next iteration.

I just say no. 

[kildorn]

Even from a hardcore raiding perspective: if you decide you need a new X for your raiding, you're forced to bump the entire raid down a few tiers to get them up through it all. It's a PAIN.

[Sheepherder]

UBRS wasn't as complex though, fight-wise, was it? I honestly don't remember, I only went into that place, like ... twice. Ever. Because I had no interest in doing a PUG that consisted of more than 5 people.   I've never had a good experience in a real PUG that was more than 5 people.

You missed out on gnome punting?

EDIT: I kind of have to agree with Draegan.  I'd like to see some of the old raids recycled into five mans, or easy-mode 10 man versions with upped loot drops (or the ability to select your own loot), cut trash, and no lockouts.  Then again, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to fully gear a person for ICC in a matter of days rather than weeks.  Or even have have all the loot which drops in not-bleeding-edge raids and instances be BoA.

[Paelos]

I just say no. 

Yeah, but then when I log in I realize there's not shit to do anyway. The game is pretty f'ing boring atm as it always is once the new expansion talk starts. I've done this twice already when I totally switched to pvp for my daily fix. I'm not even bothering this time around.

[Ingmar]

Farm a ton of cash so you can bankroll all your crazy upgrading in the next expansion!

I should take my own advice, but I never do.

[Lantyssa]

Flying around is just plain fun. See: CoX.

Super Jump moreso, but yes.  And now I do it in style.

[Draegan]

UBRS wasn't as complex though, fight-wise, was it? I honestly don't remember, I only went into that place, like ... twice. Ever. Because I had no interest in doing a PUG that consisted of more than 5 people.   I've never had a good experience in a real PUG that was more than 5 people.

You missed out on gnome punting?

EDIT: I kind of have to agree with Draegan.  I'd like to see some of the old raids recycled into five mans, or easy-mode 10 man versions with upped loot drops (or the ability to select your own loot), cut trash, and no lockouts.  Then again, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to fully gear a person for ICC in a matter of days rather than weeks.  Or even have have all the loot which drops in not-bleeding-edge raids and instances be BoA.

I forgot about that.  You could make raid gear BoA to pass on to alts.  I see no problem with that.

[Sjofn]

I miss superjump so fucking much. :(

I guess part of my thing with this "zomg force progression" is that you want to water down the raids so much so you can justify forcing people through them ... I just fail to see the point. It seems like a fuckton of work to nerf the shit out of old raids just to coax people back into them after they've been chewed up and spit out. I cannot begin to stress just how shitty I think it would be to take badges out, which seems to be part of this little fantasy of yours. And if you're not taking badges out, people are STILL going to skip the raids because for shit like badge farming people are going to default to the smaller group because it's less of a pain in the ass to get together.

I guess I just do not see the gameplay point of forcing people through farmed-to-death raids. I think it's the "forced" part that's annoying me the most, and it certainly comes across like that's exactly what you want to do, force people to do the raids in order. Why? Because shut up, that's why. Do the crapton of work to make old raids a good option along side farming five mans? Fine, although seemingly pointless to me. But that is not at all what it sounds like you really want to do. It sounds like you want to force people to do the raids in order, even after it's been long since farmed to death by most of the people who are interested in raiding. And I just cannot fathom why you would want to go back to doing that to people.

[Malakili]

UBRS wasn't as complex though, fight-wise, was it? I honestly don't remember,

It really wasn't but it was damn hard with a pug because people were there for what was basically crappy gear, which meant they had CRAPPIER gear, and some of the trash pulls were really quite hard at the time, especially post-Rend event.  The last boss also did enough damage that a common strategy was to have a hunter kite the boss as far as he could back through the instance while the rest of the raid killed his adds, which isn't exactly how the fight was "meant" to be done, but it was a somewhat difficult fight/mechanic if you didn't have a competent kiter.

[Merusk]

I miss kiting Rend, it was damn fun.  Hell, I miss the epic hunter quest, too.  So much prep and focus.  You earned that damn bow and loved it.  Then again I loved playing a druid in EQ as well.

[Sheepherder]

didn't have a competent kiter.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... ha

Good times.

If any of you guys need me I'll be in the bathroom cutting myself.

[Lantyssa]

I've completed one wing of Naxx and entered it three other times for the weekly raid.  Same with a couple of other raid dungeons.  I have yet to finish any Raid, but still like doing parts of the old ones with my guild.

Your idea keeps me from what little I already manage to do.  I don't like the idea of forced progression at all.

[Mattemeo]

Super Jump moreso, but yes.  And now I do it in style.

I miss superjump so fucking much. :(

It's the one gameplay element that could make me resub CoX at any time. There just simply isn't anything else like it in any other game. Yes, it's retardo-physics. No, I don't fucking care. I just leapt 300 yards, changed direction in mid-air and landed with pinpoint accuracy on an air-vent. Fuck you, physics. Fuck you in the face. BOING!

Don't get me wrong, I love flying in games too, but the happiest I've ever been travelling in WoW was during the Halloween event when my Shadow Priest got to be a proper Witch and zoom around on a broomstick for a week or so. Till it was cruelly ripped from my inventory. Fuck that stupid sparklepony. GIVE ME MY GODDAMN BROOM BACK YOU FUCKS.

[Sjofn]

Fuck you, physics. Fuck you in the face. BOING!

That pretty much sums up how awesome superjump is right there. 

[Draegan]

I miss superjump so fucking much. :(

I guess part of my thing with this "zomg force progression" is that you want to water down the raids so much so you can justify forcing people through them ... I just fail to see the point. It seems like a fuckton of work to nerf the shit out of old raids just to coax people back into them after they've been chewed up and spit out. I cannot begin to stress just how shitty I think it would be to take badges out, which seems to be part of this little fantasy of yours. And if you're not taking badges out, people are STILL going to skip the raids because for shit like badge farming people are going to default to the smaller group because it's less of a pain in the ass to get together.

I guess I just do not see the gameplay point of forcing people through farmed-to-death raids. I think it's the "forced" part that's annoying me the most, and it certainly comes across like that's exactly what you want to do, force people to do the raids in order. Why? Because shut up, that's why. Do the crapton of work to make old raids a good option along side farming five mans? Fine, although seemingly pointless to me. But that is not at all what it sounds like you really want to do. It sounds like you want to force people to do the raids in order, even after it's been long since farmed to death by most of the people who are interested in raiding. And I just cannot fathom why you would want to go back to doing that to people.

How is this forced progression?  You like raiding don't you?  Why are you pissed that when you start a new character you have to go through each level of raiding?  The whole idea is give a path of progression FOR NEW AND RETURNING PLAYERS.  This whole idea, I don't care about your alts.  No one is coaxing anyone "back into them", this is meant to be played out from the beginning of the expansion onward, and not tacked on at the end.  

You're looking at this through the perspective a person who's sitting at the top and not at the perspective of a new player.  Why would you as a veteran player be forced to go back through old raids?  It can't be forced if you haven't done them yet.  If you have done them, there isn't really a reason to go back (or we can include incentives like I said).

I really don't think you understand what I'm discussing here.   This isn't for old players.  This is for returning players and new ones.  I want to put structure back into the raid game.  Not some gear reseting badge collection game to play the latest dungeon.  If you are a returning player and you have a stacked guild waiting for you, then kudos to you if you can get them to help you skip tiers.  That's all fine and dandy.  Game the system for all I care.  

You think getting rid of the badge system is going to make you have to go back and do old raids?  How many people do you have coming back to your guild that you would have to help gear up?  The only thing is that everyone isn't going to have a nearly top tier geared alt.  The whole badge system is retarded anyway.  It's just gearflation at it's pinnacle.  

I enjoyed gearing up toons via raids or dungeons.  Now it's just a fancy flash game that you run through over and over for badges for your 4th alt.  The game just feels cheap that way.

[Lantyssa]

You're looking at this through the perspective a person who's sitting at the top and not at the perspective of a new player.  Why would you as a veteran player be forced to go back through old raids?  It can't be forced if you haven't done them yet.  If you have done them, there isn't really a reason to go back (or we can include incentives like I said).

I really don't think you understand what I'm discussing here.   This isn't for old players.  This is for returning players and new ones.  I want to put structure back into the raid game.  Not some gear reseting badge collection game to play the latest dungeon.  If you are a returning player and you have a stacked guild waiting for you, then kudos to you if you can get them to help you skip tiers.  That's all fine and dandy.  Game the system for all I care.  

I don't think you get it.  I was this new player.  I had to grind my ass off for 80 levels, mostly solo, because everyone else was already way ahead of me.  All I wanted was to play with my friends.  Your system tells me "fuck you, grind out raids now" if I want to play with them.

It's a stupid idea.  I know it's your pet little idea so you think it would be awesome, but it's shit.  Let it go.

[Typhon]

[...]
I enjoyed gearing up toons via raids or dungeons.  Now it's just a fancy flash game that you run through over and over for badges for your 4th alt.  The game just feels cheap that way.

It IS just a fancy flash game that you run through over and over for gear.  The old way put you at the mercy of the RNG.  Also, if YOU needed the loot from an old dungeon, you were dependent on talking people into going through with you.

The new way makes it soul-crushingly obvious how many times you'll need to run the dungeons to get your gear.  Clearly you'd rather have your illusions.  Seems like most folks don't want to be at the mercy of the kindness of strangers/guildmates AND the RNG.

Eventually somedev will invent something less soul draining and everyone will knock themselves out giving them money.  For now, it seems to either/or if you like a game with gear.  (Typhon whispers, "diablo looooooot")

[Sjofn]

How is it not forced?

I do like raiding. Why am I pissed at the thought of farming old raids to gear up a new alt? Because unless you have something like the badge system, there's a good chance that after I scrape together a raid of returning-and-new-players, I am not only going to be doing a raid I've done a billion million times before, there's a really REALLY good chance that we'll be looking at an asston of spell plate no one wants. Again. Because the random loot droppage does that. There's also a good chance I am bothering to gear up said alt because my guild needs that character for some reason. I don't want to have to farm old content I got sick of the first time through and cross my fingers that everything drops just so and my gear rolls go just right so I can raid with my normal group in a similarly reasonable time frame compared to the way it works now.

I don't like making my guild give me piggyback rides. So in your theoretical world, I can either suck it up with PUGs full of new-and-returning people who don't know the instances that well (which, God help me, means I might have to help lead), or ... make my guild give me a piggyback ride. I will take badge farming over that every single time.


FAKE EDIT: And Lantyssa probably knows much better than me how bad it would suck for your new-and-returning players than I would. MOST people interested in raiding are going to have done the raiding when it was new or almost-new. The badge system helps the people who missed out the first go around (and those with alts, many tasty alts) not have to slog through stuff no one else wants to do. I don't think taking that away and replacing it with "on top of just getting to max level, now you have to do the entire progression with people you don't even know very well to catch up with your guild" is ... going to be well recieved by the majority of people. We've done that. People didn't mind seeing it go.

[Draegan]

I don't think you get it.  I was this new player.  I had to grind my ass off for 80 levels, mostly solo, because everyone else was already way ahead of me.  All I wanted was to play with my friends.  Your system tells me "fuck you, grind out raids now" if I want to play with them.

It's a stupid idea.  I know it's your pet little idea so you think it would be awesome, but it's shit.  Let it go.

There no need to be rude and insulting darl'in.

You see, I was that new player as well.  I quit during Naxx, came back for ICC.  I hated skipping content.  It felt cheesy and cheap.  I grinded the badges and jumped into the Raid game.  There was no structure, no carrot.  I had no clear line of progression.  I just got dumped into the end of the raid game after running 5 mans for a while.  I would of rather taking it step by step just like everyone else and see the content as it was released.

The way WOW is now is lame.  It skips over content and cheapens the experience.  There are plenty of people who would agree with me.  But maybe you don't.  Which is fine.  Both ways are valid.

Now maybe you can open your pretty little eyes and realize there other valid opinions out there.

[Draegan]

How is it not forced?

I do like raiding. Why am I pissed at the thought of farming old raids to gear up a new alt? Because unless you have something like the badge system, there's a good chance that after I scrape together a raid of returning-and-new-players, I am not only going to be doing a raid I've done a billion million times before, there's a really REALLY good chance that we'll be looking at an asston of spell plate no one wants. Again. Because the random loot droppage does that. There's also a good chance I am bothering to gear up said alt because my guild needs that character for some reason. I don't want to have to farm old content I got sick of the first time through and cross my fingers that everything drops just so and my gear rolls go just right so I can raid with my normal group in a similarly reasonable time frame compared to the way it works now.

I don't like making my guild give me piggyback rides. So in your theoretical world, I can either suck it up with PUGs full of new-and-returning people who don't know the instances that well (which, God help me, means I might have to help lead), or ... make my guild give me a piggyback ride. I will take badge farming over that every single time.


FAKE EDIT: And Lantyssa probably knows much better than me how bad it would suck for your new-and-returning players than I would. MOST people interested in raiding are going to have done the raiding when it was new or almost-new. The badge system helps the people who missed out the first go around (and those with alts, many tasty alts) not have to slog through stuff no one else wants to do. I don't think taking that away and replacing it with "on top of just getting to max level, now you have to do the entire progression with people you don't even know very well to catch up with your guild" is ... going to be well recieved by the majority of people. We've done that. People didn't mind seeing it go.

We obviously don't agree.  I think it would be more fun to grind gear to catch up if there was some sort of LFD for Naxx/Uld/ToC.  You think it's more fun to grind gear to catch up doing the same 5 mans over and over.  

Imagine if there wasn't a LFD system.  No one would be grinding badges as much as they are now.  Raids would probably be more efficient way of doing it.

Shrug.  Both processes involve grinding old content over and over if you are gearing up alts.  Except for a newer player, they are seeing new content as they go up.

[Ingmar]

There are plenty of people who would agree with me. 

This is where I'm 99% certain you're wrong.

[Rendakor]

Draegan, your idea sounds awful. You're the only one here supporting it, and if they did this it would make it much more DIFFICULT for a resubbing player.

[Sjofn]

Draegan, your idea sounds awful. You're the only one here supporting it, and if they did this it would make it much more DIFFICULT for a resubbing player.

It's almost like that's why they've moved away from that and attunements in the first place.

[Draegan]

There are plenty of people who would agree with me.

This is where I'm 99% certain you're wrong.

I'm 99.1% sure that I'm not.  

Draegan, your idea sounds awful. You're the only one here supporting it, and if they did this it would make it much more DIFFICULT for a resubbing player.

To you.  Not to me.  I guess you just don't understand what I propose.  Maybe you should read it again.

It's almost like that's why they've moved away from that and attunements in the first place.

Jesus you're being dumb.  Attunements were taken out because they were retarded.  They forced a player to complete old raids, that were still difficult to do.  However in my proposal those old raids could be done in incredible short fashion because trash is taken out, bosses were nerfed, and players are buffed inside the zone.  If you could clear Naxx in an hour or so right now.  Do it 3-4 times in a week with 9 other players and you would be now ready for Ulduar.  With a Looking For Raid system you could probably do this in a single day if you had the time.

How many times do you think you could do TOC with buffed players and nerfed encounters?

They are completely different systems.

[Sjofn]

Yes, everyone else is crazy.

[Rendakor]

Make a poll or some shit then if you think this is such a great idea. Go post it in the suggestions forum. Everyone here has told you its a dumb fucking idea but you insist that we're all retarded for saying it. 

[caladein]

Imagine if there wasn't a LFD system.  No one would be grinding badges as much as they are now.  Raids would probably be more efficient way of doing it.

People were grinding for badges/emblems before LFD came out.  All that did was just move out of Trade Chat/Dungeon Finder into an automated, cross-server, system.

Raids aren't really more efficient to grind emblems with, even in some crazy world where you could do them multiple times in a week.  And really, if the whole point of the current emblem system is to have gear resets, it should be lowest-common-denominator-at-80: Heroic 5-mans.

[Rendakor]

Imagine if there wasn't a LFD system.  No one would be grinding badges as much as they are now.  Raids would probably be more efficient way of doing it.

People were grinding for badges/emblems before LFD came out.  All that did was just move out of Trade Chat/Dungeon Finder into an automated, cross-server, system.

Raids aren't really more efficient to grind emblems with, even in some crazy world where you could do them multiple times in a week.  And really, if the whole point of the current emblem system is to have gear resets, it should be lowest-common-denominator-at-80: Heroic 5-mans.

Pretty much this. Before /LFD we would go do a loop of all the easy heroics: start at Nexus, fly to AN/OK, then UP/UK, then DTK, then Gundrak. That was our badge grind for Naxx, Ulduar and ToC.

[Draegan]

Make a poll or some shit then if you think this is such a great idea. Go post it in the suggestions forum. Everyone here has told you its a dumb fucking idea but you insist that we're all retarded for saying it.  

This place is extremely casual when it comes to WOW.  Most people here hated the idea of doing anything with more than 1 group of people most of the time.  

I'll stop because it won't happen in WOW anyway so the point is silly to discuss.

Imagine if there wasn't a LFD system.  No one would be grinding badges as much as they are now.  Raids would probably be more efficient way of doing it.

People were grinding for badges/emblems before LFD came out.  All that did was just move out of Trade Chat/Dungeon Finder into an automated, cross-server, system.

Raids aren't really more efficient to grind emblems with, even in some crazy world where you could do them multiple times in a week.  And really, if the whole point of the current emblem system is to have gear resets, it should be lowest-common-denominator-at-80: Heroic 5-mans.

Pretty much this. Before /LFD we would go do a loop of all the easy heroics: start at Nexus, fly to AN/OK, then UP/UK, then DTK, then Gundrak. That was our badge grind for Naxx, Ulduar and ToC.

The proliferation of badge gear is no where near the level it was prior to the LFD system.