Cataclysm

[caladein]

Part of that is that ToC introduced Emblems for Tier pieces so there's more slots that can be filled.  (For example, my DK's eventual set is all badge gear except for 4 crafted pieces, a PvP necklace, a drop off Ahune, and Quel'Delar.)

The bigger part is that not only does LFD makes it easier to get groups, it makes it a lot easier for people with marginal gear to get groups.  Pick-up Groups always want people to vastly overgear places so as a just-starting-out DPSer, you'd be hard pressed to get into groups without well-geared friends to tag along with.  Now, you can actually do dungeons you can get gear from!

[Merusk]

Yes, it's clearly a step backwards when you don't have to beg your friends to drag you along on a few raids just so you can do a heroic dungeon without them.   People who fall behind the gear curve should just wait out until the next expansion pack and its hard gear reset.  It's not like this is a game, it's srs bznz.

[Koyasha]

Draegan's suggestions sound like trying to bring back some of the structured feel of EQ raiding to me.  I like that.  I don't know if his idea specifically would be good, but the general goal he's aiming at, that you do this, then that, then the next thing, and you don't skip shit, is entirely good in my point of view.  So I'm one of the people who does agree with him.  I liked doing Velious progression > Luclin progression > Planes > etc, and I would have liked to see the same thing in WoW.

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure this is generally a smaller subset of people who want to do everything in order.  Most people want to 'cheat' and shortcut to victory.  Even if it means they actually experience vastly less content.

[Musashi]

I don't see why it's necessary.  It definitely shits on players like Lantyssa.  Sometimes I think extremely casual players like her would be okay if someone 'more hardcore' showed her a few tricks.  It's been my experience that most come away with a different view on the hardcore endgame after they've had a chance to experience it - even if they only figure out it's not for them.  I just don't see how making that mandatory for her is is a good thing at all, and that cock-block pretty much trumps whatever good comes from linear progression.  And even then, I think the argument for linear progression being a good thing is murky at best.

[Paelos]

You see, I was that new player as well.  I quit during Naxx, came back for ICC.  I hated skipping content.  It felt cheesy and cheap.  I grinded the badges and jumped into the Raid game.  There was no structure, no carrot.  I had no clear line of progression.  I just got dumped into the end of the raid game after running 5 mans for a while.  I would of rather taking it step by step just like everyone else and see the content as it was released.

The way WOW is now is lame.  It skips over content and cheapens the experience.  There are plenty of people who would agree with me.  But maybe you don't.  Which is fine.  Both ways are valid.

You didn't miss anything between the two points. Blizzard tried two totally different raiding ideas, and both of them sucked on the whole while succeeding at other things. Ulduar gave us the hard modes, which was a good idea. They also gave us a 14 boss dungeon which still is a shitty idea. Then, ToC brought us raid extensions and hardcore modes, which are awesome. They also tried zero trash, and a raid pvp fight in pve, both of which should never be done again.

ICC was just a combination of all the good things they figured out along the way. I was also with you up to a point, but you're heading into very specific territory. I think players might enjoy a watered-down version of the content, but inevitably you're suggesting that people run one thing instead of lots of things. In a game where people might already be very bored with the content, but looking to get enough for the next level, you'd create an unhappy situation of people feeling forced to redo content in order to increase the raiding pool.

Either that, or you'd create a group of people who feel forced to run something when they intentionally left the game to avoid it. A lot of people thought Ulduar and ToC were terribly shitty wastes of time, and they only gave a damn about ICC. At least in the current scenario, Blizzard can tell those like yourself "Hey there's still that content with all the achievements, ready to go for you and your close group of friends, should you decide to use it." Let's also face the reality that a lot of the content in this raiding tier is pretty much the same as the previous tier. There's always going to be dragons, there's always going to be dps races, and there's always going to be an annoying survival dance fight.

[Lantyssa]

There no need to be rude and insulting darl'in.

You see, I was that new player as well.  I quit during Naxx, came back for ICC.  I hated skipping content.  It felt cheesy and cheap.  I grinded the badges and jumped into the Raid game.  There was no structure, no carrot.  I had no clear line of progression.  I just got dumped into the end of the raid game after running 5 mans for a while.  I would of rather taking it step by step just like everyone else and see the content as it was released.

The way WOW is now is lame.  It skips over content and cheapens the experience.  There are plenty of people who would agree with me.  But maybe you don't.  Which is fine.  Both ways are valid.

Now maybe you can open your pretty little eyes and realize there other valid opinions out there.

Well, sweetheart, you're so fundamentally wrong I can't help myself.  You are showing a complete lack of knowledge about gamer psychology, social behavior, and existing examples of why this won't be enjoyed when compared to the overwhelmingly successful changes brought about with WotLK and the introduction of the LFD system.

You want a progression that makes sense.  That's fine.  I like that, too.  You've got it already.  Go run the raid dungeons in order.  What, you can't because finding a group is difficult?  Your system won't change that.  It'll only make the people you can scrape together resentful of being there.

Sure there are valid systems out there.  I even recognize other people would like different things from their games.  There's a lot I'd do differently about it were I picking what I want versus what sells.  Your idea?  It won't sell because it's a step back.

So instead of me opening my "pretty little eyes", why don't you open your pretty little mouth and suck my clit?

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure this is generally a smaller subset of people who want to do everything in order.  Most people want to 'cheat' and shortcut to victory.  Even if it means they actually experience vastly less content.

At least you understand it's a vastly smaller number of people that would want this.

[Selby]

I have guildies constantly bring up the "I wish Naxx and Uld were still required to progress!" and I resoundingly tell them "NO."  Many of these people weren't around for the good ol' bad days of 40-m MC, AQ, and BWL.  The days of having to sit in trade for hours trying to get a dungeon run to farm your loot (where no one wanted to heal and the tank only wanted people in awesome gear), beg to get carried in MC, and if you reached 60 on a 2nd character, you got to start.  ALL.  OVER.  AGAIN.  Or you just abandoned the character or PVP'ed with them.  I explain how this all went, and I mostly get "wow, that sure doesn't sound like fun" and I say "yeah, but that's what you are suggesting!"

Then there's the occasional weirdo who wants attunements, rep grinds, and progression from 60->80 to be mandatory.

[Sheepherder]

I wish they were still relevant.  I really don't care for them being necessary.

If they turned them into heroics or Wrathgate events it would be pretty awesome, just walking into Naxxrammas alone and cockslapping a lich.

[Rasix]

Then there's the occasional weirdo who wants attunements, rep grinds, and progression from 60->80 to be mandatory.

Draegan's suggestions sound like trying to bring back some of the structured feel of EQ raiding to me.  I like that.

 

[Ironwood]

I just had to wade through the last 3 pages.  WADE.

SO.  About Cataclysm ?

Stop having the same fucking stupid fights over and over.  It was a shit idea, already tried.  Let's move on.


Goblins Suck.

[Malakili]

There really was nothing like chewing glass on C'thun and still feeling pressure to kill Ragnaros every week for t2 pants.  Or, for that matter, having a healer burn out and needing to gear up some new guy in MC and BWL for 2 months.  This was not good.  If you remember it being good, you are wrong, if you didn't do it and think it would be good, you are also wrong.

[Simond]

The way WOW is now is lame.  It skips over content and cheapens the experience.  There are plenty of people who would agree with me.  

Having the usual "EQ was the apex of MMO design and WoW should add camp checks and AAs" suspects piping up in agreement on FoH when you posted the same argument over there a couple of weeks ago <> "plenty of people".

Just FYI.

E: speelin'

[Lantyssa]

SO.  About Cataclysm ?

Nothing new to chew on.  All we can do is grind the same old topics until we're fed something.  Be glad there's not a pre-req to discuss all old topics before we get to a new one though.

[Typhon]

[...]

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure this is generally a smaller subset of people who want to do everything in order.  Most people want to 'cheat' and shortcut to victory.  Even if it means they actually experience vastly less content.

I not in the "cheat" camp, mostly because I don't really care about gear or gear progression.  Don't get me wrong, it's really nice to get a good item, but I don't want the reason that I go to a dungeon to be based upon gear.  The sucks my will to play the game.

I'm in the "I'd like to do whatever dungeon I feel like doing today, and that will probably be one that I've done the least".

My camp would involve re-tooling EVERY dungeon in the game to have it scale itself to your level.  Oh yeah, and gear would all be random-drop.  Oh yeah, and you'd have gear that effected how you look, but was purely cosmetic, and gear that effected your stats.  Oh yeah, and the gear would be able to have (rare chance) extremely cool procs that didn't work in PvP.

Oh yeah, and higher level players in "lower level" dungeons would be facing a different pattern of enemy. It would be like the CoX idea where there would be the cannon fodder mobs, lieutenant mobs, and captain mods.  So if you are level-appropriate for that dungeon, only cannon fodder spawns.  If you are level + 5 to level + 10, lieutenants spawn and direct the mobs in intelligent ways (i.e. the encounter changes to something challenging, but at the same time you are pretty much one-shotting the canon fodder).  When the captains spawn, the lieutenants change into support-type mobs (high priority targets because they can fuck you up).

I think that covers it.  You'd basically have a reason for experiencing/playing every dungeon in the game not matter when you join the game.  No player would be locked into the same X number of dungeons that are "level appropriate" that they'll have to run a billion freaking times.  New dungeons could be released that most players could just start experiencing.  To prevent it from throwing out the concept of story, the "story" mobs only spawn when you are level appropriate for that story.  I'd actually make it even more like Diablom (2) in that the story mobs drop great loot, but only for your first time through the story (and you don't roll for that loot, it's just yours - should only drop loot that is class appropriate).

[Rendakor]

Typhon, your idea is interesting. But it wouldn't work in WoW.

[Draegan]

Post.

I think a portion of disagreement is trying to wedge the current dungeons into my "crazy idea".  I would hope that if that they did what I would like, they would design it from the ground up with that in mind.  I'm also assuming the content is good as well.  

Lesson learned is that not everyone can be pleased.  Gotta do it one way or another.

[Draegan]

Well, sweetheart, you're so fundamentally wrong I can't help myself.  You are showing a complete lack of knowledge about gamer psychology, social behavior, and existing examples of why this won't be enjoyed when compared to the overwhelmingly successful changes brought about with WotLK and the introduction of the LFD system.

You want a progression that makes sense.  That's fine.  I like that, too.  You've got it already.  Go run the raid dungeons in order.  What, you can't because finding a group is difficult?  Your system won't change that.  It'll only make the people you can scrape together resentful of being there.

Sure there are valid systems out there.  I even recognize other people would like different things from their games.  There's a lot I'd do differently about it were I picking what I want versus what sells.  Your idea?  It won't sell because it's a step back.

So instead of me opening my "pretty little eyes", why don't you open your pretty little mouth and suck my clit?

 

[Rendakor]

Someone did what you suggested, from the ground up. I suggest you try it out.

[Draegan]

Jesus christ, I'm not advocating this shitty raid game that EQ came up with.  I'm just saying that I would like to see some order and sequence to the end game in WOW.  You hit 80, you go from point A to B to C to D.  The farther you get away from A the easier A gets.  So easy in fact you can do it with a less people and less time (you define less, half?  2/3rds?).  There are no attunements either.  If you can strong arm through content with help of other people then you can even skip point A or B or whatever.

What I'm not advocating is:
1.  Farming old raids for months at a time so you can get to a raid that's just slightly newer.
2.  Making people complete old raids to be flagged for the next. 

Much like how you go from level 1, 2 3... 78, 79, 80, there is a similar progression at the end.  And just like when WOW added more levels to the cap, the old leveling curve got made easier.

I'm sorry Lant if you find the idea so offensive you had to go batshit insane on the idea.  For fuck sake.

[Musashi]

Thing is, bro, you are advocating those things because they're part and parcel to linear content.  In fact, at this point I'm not even sure you're advocating anything other than you winning an internet argument.  Because the more I read what you just posted, the less it makes any sense at all.  I'm particularly having a problem with:

(I'm not advocating:)
2.  Making people complete old raids to be flagged for the next. 

Which is directly follwed by:

Much like how you go from level 1, 2 3... 78, 79, 80, there is a similar progression at the end.

Do you understand how you can't really have one without the other?  Explain how you would accomplish gating content without a mechanic that looks a whole lot like flagging.  You can somehow make it easy to strong-arm the content (which you also are vague about how you would provide a mechanic for), but then what the fuck is the point?  Why make people do it if it's just going to be easy?  Aren't you just wasting people's time?  What is motivating you to have this old-ass argument?  I'm pretty sure I know.

[Draegan]

Do you understand how you can't really have one without the other?  Explain how you would accomplish gating content without a mechanic that looks a whole lot like flagging.  You can somehow make it easy to strong-arm the content (which you also are vague about how you would provide a mechanic for), but then what the fuck is the point?  Why make people do it if it's just going to be easy?  Aren't you just wasting people's time?  What is motivating you to have this old-ass argument?  I'm pretty sure I know.

You can get the help of over geared players to do higher tiers.  That's skipping content.  So your friends can help you out, if you have them.  There is no artificial flag that says, "You can't enter here."

I find the gameplay of doing dungeons and raids in a certain sequenced fashion with increasing difficulty more entertaining than grinding 5 man dungeons endlessly to skip over the content.  That's just my opinion.  I enjoy moving through the ranks, it's a form of character advancement.  What my motivation is to make it not a fucking pain in the ass as the current expansion gets older, hence making it easier.

I could ask the same question, "What the fuck is the point [in grinding badges]?"  Why not do a quest that just gives you the gear, why make people grind incredibly easy content, old content in order to get to the new stuff?  What's the difference between maybe 20-30 hours of game play of badge grinding vs. just giving the player the gear after doing some fluff quest titled "Intro to ICC"?  Why not cut out all the hours of grinding 5 man dungeons?

[Musashi]

You can get the help of over geared players to do higher tiers.  That's skipping content.  So your friends can help you out, if you have them.  There is no artificial flag that says, "You can't enter here."

I still don't follow this, man.  You say there's not an artificial flag.  But your friends have to help you do something or you can't move on.  See, I know how willing over geared players are to grab that 4k gear score noob friend and drag his useless ass through top end content.  That's my problem with your thingey here.  Because it's walking and talking an artificial flag.

As far as the badge grind, it's there because before it was there, there were definitely other -worse- artificial flags.  I'm not promoting the badge grind, but I just understand that the reality of things only presents so many alternatives given existing factors.  And while the badge grind is tedious, it's better than the MC gear grind because people can easily solo it, among many other reasons.  It could be better.  I agree.  But give me something less ambiguous than magical 'linear content that isn't gated.'

[Slyfeind]

I could ask the same question, "What the fuck is the point [in grinding badges]?"  Why not do a quest that just gives you the gear, why make people grind incredibly easy content, old content in order to get to the new stuff?  What's the difference between maybe 20-30 hours of game play of badge grinding vs. just giving the player the gear after doing some fluff quest titled "Intro to ICC"?  Why not cut out all the hours of grinding 5 man dungeons?

That's pretty much what they do every expansion. (And by "every" I mean "both".) It's worked fine so far. (And by "fine" I mean I like it and lol at people who think it's cheap.)

[Malakili]

I could ask the same question, "What the fuck is the point [in grinding badges]?"  Why not do a quest that just gives you the gear, why make people grind incredibly easy content, old content in order to get to the new stuff?  What's the difference between maybe 20-30 hours of game play of badge grinding vs. just giving the player the gear after doing some fluff quest titled "Intro to ICC"?  Why not cut out all the hours of grinding 5 man dungeons?

The answer is retaining players.  Every single time I've gone back to WoW I've grinded gear on my max level characters, MAYBE leveled one more character to level (max), and then cancelled again (recently cancelled again for that matter).  I don't raid anymore, I don't have an interest in doing it, it takes too long, it requires me to play at a certain time, and I certainly won't PUG a raid so that I can do it when I happen to be on.  There is no way I'd last longer than a month back in WoW if I had to raid.  Or, if I was just gifted the gear.  WoW is a collection game.  Its about collecting loot, mounts, pets, recipes, or whatever you happen to like getting heaps of.  Badges for 5 mans are an easily accessible shinies collection system and allow for anyone to play the collection game.    Your assumption is that everyone will/wants to see the latest content and isn't just there to shoot the shit with some friends and hang around in Dalaran with some new shinies.  WoW has become infinitely more enjoyable for me since embracing that.  When I'm in the mood for it, WoW is where I go, when I'm sick of it, I ditch it and go play something else.  Diablo 3 will probably replace WoW for me for this reason.

[Draegan]

I still don't follow this, man.  You say there's not an artificial flag.  But your friends have to help you do something or you can't move on.  See, I know how willing over geared players are to grab that 4k gear score noob friend and drag his useless ass through top end content.  That's my problem with your thingey here.  Because it's walking and talking an artificial flag.

As far as the badge grind, it's there because before it was there, there were definitely other -worse- artificial flags.  I'm not promoting the badge grind, but I just understand that the reality of things only presents so many alternatives given existing factors.  And while the badge grind is tedious, it's better than the MC gear grind because people can easily solo it, among many other reasons.  It could be better.  I agree.  But give me something less ambiguous than magical 'linear content that isn't gated.'

Spoiled for the people who don't want to read it.

[Draegan]

 Your assumption is that everyone will/wants to see the latest content and isn't just there to shoot the shit with some friends and hang around in Dalaran with some new shinies.  WoW has become infinitely more enjoyable for me since embracing that.  When I'm in the mood for it, WoW is where I go, when I'm sick of it, I ditch it and go play something else.  Diablo 3 will probably replace WoW for me for this reason.

That I understand also.  Not everyone likes Raids, and sometimes when I've come back to WOW it was for the leveling content and then run a few dungeons when I finished leveling and also hanging out with old e-friends.  I usually then unsub.

I've always been an advocate of a seperate 5 man dungeon progressive system.  Like I said in the previous post, create a series of 5 man dungeons (like they did with ICC) with every raid.  Gives people who hate raiding something to do other than dailies.

My system is only there for the raid game.  I'm sure there are things people can come up with to create a grind for 5 man players that offer them shiny rewards. 

[Ironwood]

 

 

[Rasix]

Anyone got a sock and some duct tape?

[Draegan]

Anyone got a sock and some duct tape?

Feel free to den the last page or so then.

[WindupAtheist]

Heigan dance with a raid of 10/25 fresh 80 puggies pulled from the random-queue system is sure to be a snap. If you don't like that, insert any other raid mechanic slightly more complex than those of 5-mans, where "Quit standing in the purple shit!" can still be a problem.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Heigan dance with a raid of 10/25 fresh 80 puggies pulled from the random-queue system is sure to be a snap. If you don't like that, insert any other raid mechanic slightly more complex than those of 5-mans, where "Quit standing in the purple shit!" can still be a problem.

Have you done the new 5man icc heroics? Hell just getting people to understand things like "stop hitting the boss while you have a big glowing light connecting you both"  are too complicated for most

[Soulflame]

Instructor.  25 man.  Good luck finding two spriests.

[Ingmar]

Heigan dance with a raid of 10/25 fresh 80 puggies pulled from the random-queue system is sure to be a snap. If you don't like that, insert any other raid mechanic slightly more complex than those of 5-mans, where "Quit standing in the purple shit!" can still be a problem.

The biggest stumbling blocks in Naxx PUGs back in the day for me were always:

- Instructor Razuvious, (25 man version only) - finding 2 priests who could handle the mind control job was... difficult
- The entire abomination wing other than Patchwerk, but especiallyThaddius
- 4 Horsemen

The one nice thing about Heigan is that as long as a few people can handle it, and one of them is a healer that can cure disease and another one is a tank, you can eventually beat it even after most of the yahoos explode on the first dance phase.

[Ironwood]

Anyone got a sock and some duct tape?

Feel free to den the last page or so then.

/Signed.

[Sjofn]

The one nice thing about Heigan is that as long as a few people can handle it, and one of them is a healer that can cure disease and another one is a tank, you can eventually beat it even after most of the yahoos explode on the first dance phase.

The best part about that is you can make the idiots who exploded sit there and watch you do it right for the 15 minutes or whatever it winds up taking to kill him if most of your raid is dumb.