Cataclysm

[Draegan]

WOW as a whole made a gigantic swing from Hardcore Raid Game in Vanilla to Very Casual Raid Game now in WOTLK (with additional solo/5man/pvp options).

A very big swing in player base.  I wonder where the game will swing to next.  I think more of the same in Cata.  I don't see how you can get more casual.  Maybe badge armor will be cheaper.  Does 10 mans = 25 mans count?

[Lakov_Sanite]

WOW as a whole made a gigantic swing from Hardcore Raid Game in Vanilla to Very Casual Raid Game now in WOTLK (with additional solo/5man/pvp options).

A very big swing in player base.  I wonder where the game will swing to next.  I think more of the same in Cata.  I don't see how you can get more casual.  Maybe badge armor will be cheaper.  Does 10 mans = 25 mans count?

25man ICC is not casual, I've seen pugs do 10man but I'm not sure many of those even get LK kills, nor do hardmodes.  I think the hardcore game is certainly there it's just been shuffled into a dark corner where you have to go looking to find it.

[Tarami]

/level?

Honestly though, I think they've gone too far. I consider flying mounts, LFD and many things regarding badges to be irretractable long-term mistakes. I know I won't get many to agree about the flying mounts, but I really do feel they were a mistake and not in the "not hardcore enough" sense.

[Draegan]

WOW as a whole made a gigantic swing from Hardcore Raid Game in Vanilla to Very Casual Raid Game now in WOTLK (with additional solo/5man/pvp options).

A very big swing in player base.  I wonder where the game will swing to next.  I think more of the same in Cata.  I don't see how you can get more casual.  Maybe badge armor will be cheaper.  Does 10 mans = 25 mans count?

25man ICC is not casual, I've seen pugs do 10man but I'm not sure many of those even get LK kills, nor do hardmodes.  I think the hardcore game is certainly there it's just been shuffled into a dark corner where you have to go looking to find it.

I've heard of plenty of PUGs finishing ICC25 normal mode.

/level?

Honestly though, I think they've gone too far. I consider flying mounts, LFD and many things regarding badges to be irretractable long-term mistakes. I know I won't get many to agree about the flying mounts, but I really do feel they were a mistake and not in the "not hardcore enough" sense.

I've had a discussion recently on FOH about progression in WOW.  I also agree that they went a bit to far with badge gear.  I never really though about Flying mounts though you may have a point.

As far as progression though, when I went back to play around the time ICC came out.  I leveled a toon, grinding all my badge gear and 5 man loot.  Then I was "dumped" into the end game scene which was somewhere between TOC and ICC.  There was no sense of progression anymore. 

I'd much rather do the whole level 1-80, do end game dungeons for better gear, get ready for raids.  Then I would like to raid Naxx until I'm ready for Ulduar.  Raid Ulduar until I'm read for... and so on.  I know Blizzard wants people to see the end game dungeons but instead of throwing badge gear at people, I'd like to see old raids have their raid ID taken away and added buffs so you can work through them.

For example, Naxx, Ulduar and TOC don't have lockouts anymore with ICC in play.  You can run them as many times as you like.  Naxx would have a damage/healing buff on it that's pretty strong.  Ulduar and ToC would be the same but as you get higher in progression the buff gets weaker.  Then you geto ICC.

I hate the idea of skipping content.  You get to a point where you're pretty directionless.  I love working towards something, whether it's the end of a storyline or through gear.  I don't like getting dropped in the middle and being told to "Go get em!".

[Tarami]

I agree about the raids. I dinged 80 in patch 3.3, so ICC was the only raid that was relevant to run. Only, I didn't want to do ICC. The new content isn't always better or more exciting if you've never done the older stuff. I went back and did BT with a boost raid and it was great to see the place. WoW hasn't evolved in a way that old content becomes outdated (aside gear) that quickly.

On flying mounts - the issues all boil down to the fact that it hinders interaction. You no longer interact with players, the terrain, mobs or "the world" in general. In addition, WoW looks its absolute worst from high up in the air, because the engine can't handle the view distances. The zones become contrived and silly with absolutely no grounding in reason, Storm Peaks and Netherstorm, to name two, which have untraversable obstacles just to justify flying mounts. Compare the design quality of Grizzly Hills to Storm Peaks - it's clearly visible which one took effort and which one is basically five strokes with the elevation brush. It also encourages some rather stupid and unimmersive player behaviour, like "bombing" farmable nodes.

Yes, I used the I-word in relation to WoW. I do however think that flying mounts has caused much, much greater harm to the sense of world and immersion than any number of Gnomish motorcycles could ever do. Immersion is malleable in that regard, but when you are 300 feet in the air in an empty nothing, there's nothing to immerse in.

[Rasix]

Also ME2 is just tons more intersting atm.

It's amazing what you end up discovering once you poke your head up out of WoW.  ME2, I'd argue, would always be more interesting than WoW (well, maybe not on your 4th play through).  

When I'm playing WoW, I'm happy playing WoW, but I'm unhappy with how much it usually cuts into my other gaming.  The last time I didn't let that happen and took weeks off at a time for ME2, DA and others.  

Easy to do when you don't raid.  

edit: most pug raids that actually get shit done aren't very casual. Casual raiding isn't very casual either. 

[Typhon]

[...]
I'd much rather do the whole level 1-80, do end game dungeons for better gear, get ready for raids.  Then I would like to raid Naxx until I'm ready for Ulduar.  Raid Ulduar until I'm read for... and so on.  I know Blizzard wants people to see the end game dungeons but instead of throwing badge gear at people, I'd like to see old raids have their raid ID taken away and added buffs so you can work through them.
[...]

This would require that you had someone to raid WITH.  They have stated that the biggest driver is not forcing a guild to bootstrap a recruit through all the old content just to get the guild back to raiding the current level.

As a counter-point to the "flying mounts ruined the game", cold weather flying in WOTLK ended up causing me to quit when it first came out.  Playing a druid, being able to shift into crow became such a large part of the fun that I had with the class/game, I got disgusted with having that taken away.

[Sheepherder]

No it was not removed *entirely*. Just gutted. That is what GC is referring to when they say they tried normalizing in TBC and it didn't work. And he's right.

EDIT: I forgot they increased the damage on cleave at some point, the level 60 number should be more like 1.1 bonus damage/threat. Roughly the same as HS, but less threat in an absolute sense so better to use given rage was not a concern.

That still isn't removed, and it has nothing to do with why it doesn't work.  The formula is a standard linear equation, with the scaling factor attached to damage nerfed and a constant added derived from weapon speed and type.  At some point in any expansion it will break, the only way to make it not break would have been to make the scaling on damage dealt so punitive that it is effectively zero.

[Ingmar]

That's what they're doing, I think, and I seem to recall that they also tried that during the TBC beta, but it has been a long time and I'm getting old.

[Tarami]

As a counter-point to the "flying mounts ruined the game", cold weather flying in WOTLK ended up causing me to quit when it first came out.  Playing a druid, being able to shift into crow became such a large part of the fun that I had with the class/game, I got disgusted with having that taken away.

That's mostly a combination of conditioning and the lack of alternatives. I have no issues with fast land mounts. It's the flying that's the issue.

[Draegan]

[...]
I'd much rather do the whole level 1-80, do end game dungeons for better gear, get ready for raids.  Then I would like to raid Naxx until I'm ready for Ulduar.  Raid Ulduar until I'm read for... and so on.  I know Blizzard wants people to see the end game dungeons but instead of throwing badge gear at people, I'd like to see old raids have their raid ID taken away and added buffs so you can work through them.
[...]

This would require that you had someone to raid WITH.  They have stated that the biggest driver is not forcing a guild to bootstrap a recruit through all the old content just to get the guild back to raiding the current level.

As a counter-point to the "flying mounts ruined the game", cold weather flying in WOTLK ended up causing me to quit when it first came out.  Playing a druid, being able to shift into crow became such a large part of the fun that I had with the class/game, I got disgusted with having that taken away.

Making old raids (or 10 man versions) just big dungeons, i.e. like UBRS back in the day, would make them incredibly accessible.  Especially if you boost the old ones with big buffs.  Example, 4 guys in ICC gear get a new buddy and want to get him up to snuff gear wise.  They might be able to 5 man the first few raid tiers.  You can do it also as many times as you want, just like 5 man dungeons.

I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping current expansion content relevant throughout the expac's lifetime.  I would love to see Blizzard make 1.0 and 2.0's raids relevant somehow for things other than achievements.  Take them off raid counters and put some cool items or quest components to farm if that's something you're into.

I just hate skipping content.  Maybe it's my partial OCD, but I like to do things in order and not miss anything.

[Outlawedprod]

I wonder where the game will swing to next.

80% of Activision's Operating Profit? =p

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/29052/Kotick_70_Of_Activision_Operating_Profit_Comes_From_NonConsoleBased_Games.php

[SurfD]

As far as progression though, when I went back to play around the time ICC came out.  I leveled a toon, grinding all my badge gear and 5 man loot.  Then I was "dumped" into the end game scene which was somewhere between TOC and ICC.  There was no sense of progression anymore.  

I'd much rather do the whole level 1-80, do end game dungeons for better gear, get ready for raids.  Then I would like to raid Naxx until I'm ready for Ulduar.  Raid Ulduar until I'm read for... and so on.  I know Blizzard wants people to see the end game dungeons but instead of throwing badge gear at people, I'd like to see old raids have their raid ID taken away and added buffs so you can work through them.

For example, Naxx, Ulduar and TOC don't have lockouts anymore with ICC in play.  You can run them as many times as you like.  Naxx would have a damage/healing buff on it that's pretty strong.  Ulduar and ToC would be the same but as you get higher in progression the buff gets weaker.  Then you geto ICC.

I hate the idea of skipping content.  You get to a point where you're pretty directionless.  I love working towards something, whether it's the end of a storyline or through gear.  I don't like getting dropped in the middle and being told to "Go get em!".

The problem is, that you are likely in a small minority of players.    The average player is not likely to go for "progression" just to get to end content unless the Progression is almost so easy it isn't really progression any more (especially not the second or thrid time around).  

Progression makes sense when you are dealing with main characters, working through "Current" content, or maybe 1 tier behind.   Once you get into the guy wanting to gear up his alt, who has already done the progression scene once, Progressing through 3 tiers of content for the Xth time just to get to the stuff you actually want tends to lose its fun for most people. It can also get kind of expensive if your raid community is the kind that expects you to have all your shit fully enchanted / gemmed.  Imagine how expensive progressing through Naxx, Ulduar and Toc in 2 weeks and having to enchant / gem all your shit could be, especially when you probably would be replacing shit on a daily basis.

Of course, this does leave the new player, who got his first toon to 80 in the middle of the 3rd raid tier of progression in the lurch, but that is where the badge gear thing helps out.

Also, as previously mentioned, you also need someone to raid WITH to do those old tiers.   On my server, it is practically impossible to actually find people who want to run Naxx or Ulduar for gear (or even for badges) any more, unless it happens to be a Naxx raid weekly.  Im not even sure removing old tier raid lockouts and forcing people to gear up in them by removing badge gear would help.   High end guilds would just end up carrying undergeared people / alts through top content to gear them up, instead of running low tier content, and new people would be stuck in a veritable ghost town, where your average Naxx / Ulduar pug would probably be a nightmare the likes of which would make the bad groups forum experiences with 5 mans seem like paradise by comparison.

[Sheepherder]

That's what they're doing, I think, and I seem to recall that they also tried that during the TBC beta, but it has been a long time and I'm getting old.

Almost what they're doing, but it should be interesting.  Haste, Hit, and Crit scaling might be an issue.  Then again, they aren't exactly consistently great right now unless you stack crit to the point where you get into the "HOLY FUCK NEVERENDING MEATSPLOSION AGILITY HAS SEP > 1 LOLOLOL" point.

[Rendakor]

The only time anyone runs Naxx or Ulduar (aside from the weekly) on my server is when they're doing title or mount runs.

[Draegan]

Long Post.

The current paradigm in WOW doesn't allow what I want to see done.  People loved the whole 1-80 ding grats part of the game, I think people would equally like the same sort of progression with PVE content.  I think that plenty of people might think the way I do.

The whole "gearing up alts" thing shouldn't be an excuse to kill off content from the current xpac.  Maybe you didn't read the part where I said that, taking the current raid setup in WOW, Naxx, Ulduar and TOC would be fully farmable and open without lockouts.  Especially with buffs, you won't need to have your shit enchanted or gemmed up.  Or even if you did, non epic/blue gems would work just fine.  You would tune the buffs associated with those zones to make up for it.

As far as finding people, of course no one runs old raids now with any consistency because there is no real incentive to do it.  If high end guilds want to pull people through current raid content, that's fine.  It's what they did back in the day.  I'm talking about people who aren't in the high end guilds but still want to raid.  If you design the system with a progression based end game in mind, it will most definitely work.  But right now you have built in cheat codes in the form of heroic dungeon farming.

If people love the 1-80 progression path then there should be an equal set path for max level progression.  Not a confusing mess that is dictating by an addon that ranks everyone with a number.

[Ingmar]

I think people would equally like the same sort of progression with PVE content.  I think that plenty of people might think the way I do.

I think this is unlikely simply for the reason that you end up beholden to other people for your ding grats. You can level 1-80 solo. You can't solo your way through Naxx, so unless you progress along with your friends you're either stuck trying to 'catch up' by raiding with strangers (sometimes a pretty horrible prospect, even in Naxx at times), or you're forcing your play group to repeat old content that they dislike. Let's remember this is exactly how it worked at level 60 - guilds were stuck running Molten Core *forever* because they had to gear up new people to replace ones who left, etc. What you're suggesting is essentially going back to this system, which was largely hated and they ditched for a reason.

The catch-up gearing is really, really important for people who play the game with guilds, especially the more casual ones. It means that when our guild's version of Rasix wanders off for a few months to do other things, when he comes back he can get in shape to raid with us quickly and without other people having to sink a bunch of time into playing catch-up for him.

[Sjofn]

You don't like skipping raids, so you want to add a bunch of stupid busy work for people? I think on the whole you will find people prefer being able to catch up with their friends gear-wise through the Magic of Five Mans over "hay guyz let's go do the raid you people were sick of months ago because I need gear to get more gear to get more gear to finally raid with you."

Nothing is stopping you from "grabbing some ICC geared friends" and rolling through the old raids. You don't need to "progress" through them repeatedly in order to get a sense of them, and this way no one else has to suffer through tiered content bullshit because you feel fussy you missed out on some farming.

[Draegan]

You can't compare my scenario with the Molten Core days.  There were no zone wide buffs.  Don't you think more guilds would be able to kill Rag if they had a 25% damage buff across the board?

You're completely overblowing the whole stuck or catch up scenarios.  Plenty of people PUG their way through raids these days.  Plenty of people are forced to repeat content to gear up (hi2u badge grind).

I also think you're stuck on this whole catch up thing.  For example; say your Rasix version wanders off during Naxx and he comes back during ICC.  What is an acceptable amount of time for him to "catch up" to raid with you guys?  Currently that would take 2-3 weeks depending on his catass speed to grind out a full set of badge gear.  He can pug the 5 mans over and over.

Now in my scenario, you can now PUG 10 man raids from Naxx, Ulduar, and TOC.  You can even compare this to UBRS back in the day.  I pugged the shit out of that zone for dungeon sets back in the day.  Most groups were successful, some were not.  I think you'd be able to PUG it even better these days with a dungeon finder system.

Now you're not even thinking about 10 man version of these raids with damage/healing buffs added on to them.  You could potentially get geared up even faster with this system.  Or at least sufficiently enough that he can join your ICC group where you wouldn't have to carry him as fast.

But he also has to go through the progression, which I think, gives the game a better footing.

I also think that is more fun that running heroic dungeons over and over and over again for 100's of badges.

[Draegan]

You don't like skipping raids, so you want to add a bunch of stupid busy work for people? I think on the whole you will find people prefer being able to catch up with their friends gear-wise through the Magic of Five Mans over "hay guyz let's go do the raid you people were sick of months ago because I need gear to get more gear to get more gear to finally raid with you."

Nothing is stopping you from "grabbing some ICC geared friends" and rolling through the old raids. You don't need to "progress" through them repeatedly in order to get a sense of them, and this way no one else has to suffer through tiered content bullshit because you feel fussy you missed out on some farming.

Compare and contrast pugging your way through 10 man raids where you get a decent amount of gear vs. pugging your way through 5 man content for badges.  Which is more busy work? 

Of course nothing is stopping me from attempting to find some people to roll through old raids, but it's meaningless to me.  I don't want to steam roll content out of order.  I want to go through the games natural progression as it was built to do.

You sound pretty offended too, calm down cupcake.

[Sjofn]

Frankly, that sounds boring as fuck to me. I raided the shit out of 10 man Naxx, I have no interest in farming it again for one person who will most likely need repeat visits to get the gear he needs, especially if part of this theoretical scenario is pulling the plug on gearing up 100% through badges. The RNG is a harsh mistress.

Incidently, it doesn't need a buff at this point to be easy unless I want to leave my DoppelRasix to the tender mercies of people who are geared as shittily as he theoretically is. Which would be sorely tempting, given I finished Naxx as hard as I fucking could already.

EDIT: Also I much prefer "badge grinding" in 5 mans where there's nothing I need because it does still drop something I need. Badges! If you're casting away the badge gear completely to encourage "progression," it's punishing a guild with a new member even harder because they'd be running old shit they're tired of for one person and good god who wants to do that. The other alternative is booting them into PUG raids for  god knows how long (again, drop-only loot farming can be really, really terrible), which would be a damn shame because one assumes they bothered to re-up and gear up to play with their friends.

[Draegan]

Frankly, dinging 80 and then grinding heroic dungeons for a month to get badge gear only to be slightly undergeared for the latest and greatest dungeons seems incredibly boring to me.  I find it synonymous with hitting level 30 farming some random drops for a few weeks and then turning them in and dinging level 79.

Who says that you have to farm anything?  Whoever is gearing up can go back and do it on their own with other PUGs, just like he has to do with Heroics.  If you really want badges, just keep the badges tiered up with their own raid and offer similiar tier gear.  That'll kill the RNG.  Also the farther away from the top tier it is, the cheaper the gear is to buy with badges.

Naxx sure does need a buff if you're progressing through it as a new or returning player.  If your crawling out of 5 man dungeons and heroics you should be able to hop right into a Naxx pug and grab some gear.  Buffing the players makes the experience easier to farm.

Everyone seems to be worried about this one guy who's coming back to the game and you want to catch him up to your current level.  Well he has to play the game to catch up.  So go about it and play.  Mindlessly doing 5 mans is just as mindless as grinding Naxx a few times for gear.  I mean really, who are you punishing?  If a guild is accepting a lower geared player, then they are taking on the responsibility of helping him catch up.  If it's a friend?  Well be friendly and help him out otherwise. 

I just think the main difference is that you think it's ok to force someone to grind 5 man dungeons for a month to get badge gear but it's boring as hell to make someone grind/progress through a series of raids (which are much more well made than 5 mans imo).  I just think if you want to do a top tier raid, then you should raid to get your gear. 

I don't know why you're putting badge grinding in quotes, because that's what it is. 

[Ingmar]

I also think you're stuck on this whole catch up thing.  For example; say your Rasix version wanders off during Naxx and he comes back during ICC.  What is an acceptable amount of time for him to "catch up" to raid with you guys?  Currently that would take 2-3 weeks depending on his catass speed to grind out a full set of badge gear.  He can pug the 5 mans over and over.

It doesn't take nearly that long, unless he's running like, one dungeon a day. I got a fresh 80 ret paladin into 'could do the front 4 bosses in ICC 10' shape in under a week, without being tremendously catassy. The X factor is really just how long it takes you to get your needed weapon drops from the ICC heroics.

EDIT: His GS isn't going to get him into *pug* ICCs after a week, but it would be enough to run him in a guild run certainly.

[Paelos]

So Draegan, your solution is to have people run the old dungeons with higher buffs instead of running five mans as a launching pad? Would the old raid content be five mannable in this case?

I can see a case for removing badge gear and making the old way of progression if I could do Naxx in a 5 man group, get 25 old man loot, and be done in an hour and change while making great gold rewards for the rest of the crew you bring along. If that's the scenario, sure.

If it's anything other than that, with no real rewards for the people at the top redoing content, or the people in the bottom having to organize themselves into larger groups, your plan makes no sense.

[kildorn]

I'd hate the focus to move from pug 5 mans to pug raiding entirely due to the complexity of certain raid fights. You know, it's hard enough explaining 5 man mechanics to single serving friends from LFD. I really don't want to explain say, heigan to them. Every. Goddamned. Time.

[Sjofn]

I just think the main difference is that you think it's ok to force someone to grind 5 man dungeons for a month to get badge gear but it's boring as hell to make someone grind/progress through a series of raids (which are much more well made than 5 mans imo).  I just think if you want to do a top tier raid, then you should raid to get your gear. 

It's boring as hell for his friends to help him farm raids. And I know that personally, I would rather eat my own face off than do PUG raids. I know they get done and with some regularity, but no one I know that participates in them actually enjoys doing them. I don't want to add more unenjoyable crap to the game.

The main difference is in reality, it would be sucking other people into your boring-ass grind rather than trucking along in your Dungeon Finder enabled boring-ass grind (although I don't find doing five mans particularly boring ... I also don't run them until my eyes bleed in order to gear up an alt, though, which helps). When it's just a 5 man, it's easy to set up, easy to explain, and pretty quick to get through. Raids are much longer, have more complex fights (even when you overgear the fuck out of them, you still generally have to know how a raid fight works to do it) and involve more people. That's why no one wants to have to do old raids. They do still get run, but instead for fun/achievements/mounts/the weekly. Which I think is better overall.

[Draegan]

So Draegan, your solution is to have people run the old dungeons with higher buffs instead of running five mans as a launching pad? Would the old raid content be five mannable in this case?

I can see a case for removing badge gear and making the old way of progression if I could do Naxx in a 5 man group, get 25 old man loot, and be done in an hour and change while making great gold rewards for the rest of the crew you bring along. If that's the scenario, sure.

If it's anything other than that, with no real rewards for the people at the top redoing content, or the people in the bottom having to organize themselves into larger groups, your plan makes no sense.

5 mannable?  I have no problem with that.  Maybe buffing it to the point where 5 peeps can do it sure.  I still don't see the major difference of pugging 5 people and 10 people.  People did i a lot with UBRS back in the day.  That's what I'm looking at right now. 

My main thought process is now that I hit max level I would like to see some "epic" progression rather than doing slightly harder dungeons that I've been doing while leveling and then popping into the latest and greatest raid.  The transition doesn't feel right to me.

I'm not trying to stir up a casual vs. hardcore style debate.  Or solo vs. raider debate or whatever argument that gets peoples' panties in a bunch.

[Fordel]

What exactly is stopping you from just doing Naxx/Ulu/Etc. to "progress" now?


No one is putting a gun to your head to badge farm.

[Sjofn]

5 mannable?  I have no problem with that.  Maybe buffing it to the point where 5 peeps can do it sure.  I still don't see the major difference of pugging 5 people and 10 people.  People did i a lot with UBRS back in the day.  That's what I'm looking at right now. 

UBRS wasn't as complex though, fight-wise, was it? I honestly don't remember, I only went into that place, like ... twice. Ever. Because I had no interest in doing a PUG that consisted of more than 5 people.  I've never had a good experience in a real PUG that was more than 5 people.

[Lantyssa]

Honestly though, I think they've gone too far. I consider flying mounts, LFD and many things regarding badges to be irretractable long-term mistakes. I know I won't get many to agree about the flying mounts, but I really do feel they were a mistake and not in the "not hardcore enough" sense.

MUDflation I can agree is a problem.  Flying mounts I can see an argument for since they change the dynamics of moving about the world and trivialize getting from point A to B.  (There's good and bad to it, and counters they could implement but haven't.)

As the owner of two green proto-drakes though, I don't care.  They're probably my favorite creature design in the game.

[Paelos]

What exactly is stopping you from just doing Naxx/Ulu/Etc. to "progress" now?


No one is putting a gun to your head to badge farm.

Let's give the argument a little credit. Everyone knows that the average MMOG player will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance even if it's 80% less fun, so you already know the answer to that question.

However, if the logistics were changed to allow people to actually progress through content in a way that offered the noobs/alts gear, and my powerleveling ass a good amount of gold...Fuck, I'd just like a switch where they let me turn off loot and just got paid for running instances. Instead of gear, drop more coinage. That would rule.

[Ingmar]

Honestly though, I think they've gone too far. I consider flying mounts, LFD and many things regarding badges to be irretractable long-term mistakes. I know I won't get many to agree about the flying mounts, but I really do feel they were a mistake and not in the "not hardcore enough" sense.

MUDflation I can agree is a problem.  Flying mounts I can see an argument for since they change the dynamics of moving about the world and trivialize getting from point A to B.  (There's good and bad to it, and counters they could implement but haven't.)

As the owner of two green proto-drakes though, I don't care.  They're probably my favorite creature design in the game.

Flying around is just plain fun. See: CoX.

[Draegan]

What exactly is stopping you from just doing Naxx/Ulu/Etc. to "progress" now?


No one is putting a gun to your head to badge farm.

Let's give the argument a little credit. Everyone knows that the average MMOG player will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance even if it's 80% less fun, so you already know the answer to that question.

However, if the logistics were changed to allow people to actually progress through content in a way that offered the noobs/alts gear, and my powerleveling ass a good amount of gold...Fuck, I'd just like a switch where they let me turn off loot and just got paid for running instances. Instead of gear, drop more coinage. That would rule.

Being able to switch from loot drops to gold is a pretty good idea.

Thank you for giving my idea some credit.  Heh.

What exactly is stopping you from just doing Naxx/Ulu/Etc. to "progress" now?


No one is putting a gun to your head to badge farm.

Yeah no one is putting a gun to my head farm badges, but that's a pretty stupid argument.  Why would I play a game and make it difficult on myself?  The game is currently not set up to do progression raiding (unless you're doing it as content is released).  Since it's not set up that way, finding people to do each raid in order like that would be impossible and even if I did all the while I'd be thinking to myself, "I'm fucking dumb.  I could get better gear quicker and easier. I feel stupid."  

Badge gear feels like a cheat code almost among other things.

UBRS wasn't as complex though, fight-wise, was it? I honestly don't remember, I only went into that place, like ... twice. Ever. Because I had no interest in doing a PUG that consisted of more than 5 people.   I've never had a good experience in a real PUG that was more than 5 people.

It was a different era, some of those fights were tough though, but mostly simple.  Some 5 mans today are harder than anything that was in Vanilla.  But Raids are pugged today, I don't see how facerolling Naxx with people is hard.  If you are power boosted enough it takes some of the DPS checks out of things.

[Tarami]

UBRS wasn't as complex though, fight-wise, was it? I honestly don't remember, I only went into that place, like ... twice. Ever. Because I had no interest in doing a PUG that consisted of more than 5 people.  I've never had a good experience in a real PUG that was more than 5 people.

Does Leeroy Jenkins mean anything to you? It was complicated enough for people in those days. The bosses were, relatively speaking, hard for their time. In the haydays I probably had a ~50% success rate in UBRS with PuGs. The 15-man raids probably wiped more than the 10-man raids though (they lowered the player cap in 1.7 or something.)

That said, I think Draegan's point was that the content should be reused rather than just making people farm more of the same thing. For example, practically give away some decent blues and a few epics at the badge vendors if you want to let players catch up, then let people go raid Naxx with twice the drop rates rather than repeat the 5-man instances five bazillion times. How many badges do you need to get an ICC-ready set? 150ish? Plus some semi-rare drops you will probably want? That's a lot of runs to be a catch-up mechanism, if you ask me.

[Ingmar]

Badge gear feels like a cheat code almost among other things.

One that they added deliberately to make sure people can actually see the content they're creating in a reasonable time frame, which is something huge numbers of people had been asking for for years. The badge system has been massively popular ever since they added the first version of it in TBC, participation in various types of endgame PVE massively increased in TBC compared to vanilla and then massively increased again in Wrath compared to TBC, all because of accessibility - and the badge system is a central part of that.

Remember, TBC raiding essentially forced you to do what you're suggesting via attunement quests (must do instances in order), and they got rid of it because it was massively unpopular. Basically I think you are severely overestimating the number of people who would actually want what you're suggesting. Blizzard is always going to cater to the majority, that is why they have money hats.

EDIT: I used the word massively a few too many times in that post.