SWTOR

[apocrypha]

DAoC was built with PvP as an endgame from the very beginning, though. For all their inability to police the rampant cheating and botting on their servers, Mythic created a DIKU MMO environment the right goddamn way round. I have never, ever experienced MMO PvP to rival DAoC, not in the near 10 years since I first got into proper MMOs; simply no other game out there has come even remotely close.
I cannot stand WoW PvP. It's a horrible joke that invades and pollutes the PvE game. I'd rather SWtOR never suffered or caused me to suffer the indignities of a terrible, after-the-fact tacked on PvP system. Or worse, nag me constantly about getting into it when I'd rather slam sensitive parts of my body in the fridge door. But I know that's a whole lot of wishful thinking, and a great deal of assumption on my part about the competence of the devs to do it right or not; having not played the game yet it's pure conjecture coated with despair over the situation in WoW.
Maybe Bioware will do the impossible and present a game where PvP and PvE can work together.

Spot on. 100%, every word.

If you want PvP in your game then it needs to be completely separable from the PvE for those players that don't want anything to do with it. If you have unavoidable PvP in your MMO then you have to accept that your game is going to remain a niche game  that attracts griefers (EVE).

Blizzard have done so much damage to the concept of PvP in MMORPGs. Any dev who fails to learn those lessons deserves to spend the rest of their days making crappy Angry Birds clones.

[Sheepherder]

However, I can't think of a particularly better way to do it than the dice roll it is now when the term "aggro radius" still means something.  We've seen this done well in some games, but I'm not sure if could be worked into MMOs the way they are currently designed.

It's (usually) not a dice roll with MMO's.  It's just very abstracted in a way that makes it entirely unrecognizable as "stealth."  Oblivion has an aggro radius, and it pulls off stealth just fine.

Stealth gameplay is usually based around alternate routes of entry. It's invisibility in MMOs because, well, there's usually only one door and it's got a few dudes hanging out in front of it.  Basically, to make stealth gameplay in an MMO would require you to stop making it a "class" you stealthed with, but a gameplay choice anyone could be involved with.

I'm not buying the argument that you'd have to make stealth a generic ability.  You just need to something that fits the class's theme, is semi-reliable, and seems like an appropriate way to bypass enemies.  I.E the ability to stealth normally, use a (lesser) form of invisibility, pacify/blind the enemy, disguise oneself, shapechange into something that accomplishes one of the above, or "mind control" abilities that work in lieu of a disguise, but lets you use your class features and stats.  There's also the option of letting your premiere stealth classes share their abilities - i.e. your rogue stealths and everyone else in the party can follow along as long as they stay close to the rogue.

But that would necessitate doing something different with level design if they wanted to use it to full effect, and making the conditions to remain in stealth much more complex and difficult to maintain (particularly versus people).

But doing say, Blackrock Depths with rewards only at the end would suck. Actually, BRD with anything just sucks. And ME2 style loot at the end would also suck if you got a fucking trolly group that went to the last boss and kicked people/didn't do the fight because lol trolls. Sigh, people suck.

Split the end reward between bosses, and have increasing rewards for greater completion.

[Sjofn]

You know how many times I had to deal with that in DaoC? Zero times! The PvE area's were completely locked away from the PvP areas, players from opposing realms just couldn't enter those areas, the end. It wasn't a safe zone for lowbies, it was a entire PvE game area, newb to cap. It wasn't mixed in with each other either, where you had sporadic pvp zones inside pve areas or whatever. You had your Realm's continent, this half was for PvE, then a giant wall and the other half was for PvP with all the castles and relics and whatnot going on and where the other realms could invade and you could invade their pvp frontiers in turn.

You could go PvE in the PvP zones, of course, and we sometimes did. But that was, of course, in the bad old days where you just farmed a camp forever in order to level up. But yeah, having a giant wall to retreat behind when you didn't want to deal with it was pretty great.

Argh, now I want DAoC 2 again. Not WAR, that wasn't actually DAoC 2. I mean the setting and everything. But it probably wouldn't be done right. That sequel would be sour. :(

[Ingmar]

I think there are a lot of rose-colored balance glasses being pointed at DAOC. DAOC's PVP balance issues 'polluted' PVE at least as much as WoW's did in my experience. The only reason people notice it more in WoW is WoW's PVE is actually worth doing.

[Sjofn]

Hey, I totally said that was probably part of the reason it worked for me, YOU NEVER LISTEN.

[Fordel]

I think there are a lot of rose-colored balance glasses being pointed at DAOC. DAOC's PVP balance issues 'polluted' PVE at least as much as WoW's did in my experience. The only reason people notice it more in WoW is WoW's PVE is actually worth doing.

DaoC's PvP balance issues polluted it's PvP too. 

[Samprimary]

I think what's funny is that somehow you are going on battlegrounds being popular as a fact. I would say less than 20% of wow subscribers actively pvp for fun, more probably for the loot.

I'm PvP'ing very, very regularly. I am already a Justicar, and I want to get the Challenger title so I can have an addon made for me that changes me to that title when my nitro rockets explode and start killing me.

[caladein]

Sadly, SetCurrentTitle is protected (as in, whatever calls it must have been a button press) so you wouldn't be able to base it off getting a specific debuff.  A macro along the lines of:

/use 6
/run if IsTitleKnown(32) then SetCurrentTitle(32) end

would use your belt slot and change to that title if you have it though.

[Merusk]

I think what's funny is that somehow you are going on battlegrounds being popular as a fact. I would say less than 20% of wow subscribers actively pvp for fun, more probably for the loot.

Being one of the 20% I'd agree and want to say fuck those guys.

People bitched at me endlessly for daring to enter THEIR BG in 318 greens when I hit 85 on my rogue. I was more effective than 90% of them and having fun.  Sapping, blinding, disassembling whirlwinding warriors, actively CCIng healers, debuffing heals & runspeed with wound poison + FoK.  Those are the things you do for fun that also help you win.  Assholes looking for gear run smack into 4 other players then wonder why their full PVP set didn't let them win.

Which is another layer of the PvP/ PvE split problem. Some people see only the shiny and wonder why more gear doesn't help them wtfpwn as much as "it should."  However, since you've got the pve game drawing achiever types you can't just slap a normalized level of gear out there and let people have at it.   You wouldn't have enough activity in that portion of the game.

[UnSub]

Has BioWare ever released a game with PvP in it?

A FEW SECONDS THOUGHT EDIT: Did NWN have PvP in it?

[Mrbloodworth]

No. ( Can't count UO and DAOC, those were acquired )


EDIT: Correction, Shattered Steel.

[Trippy]

No. ( Can't count UO and DAOC, those were accusations )

Saving for posterity.

[Malakili]

Has BioWare ever released a game with PvP in it?

A FEW SECONDS THOUGHT EDIT: Did NWN have PvP in it?

NWN had PvP in it in the sense that in multiplayer servers you could set yourself to hostile against people, but I suspect this was also a server option so depending on which (if any) PW servers you played on, you may not have ever seen it.

[Mrbloodworth]

No. ( Can't count UO and DAOC, those were accusations )

Saving for posterity.

 

[Threash]

I spent a long time playing in NWN pvp servers.

[Mrbloodworth]

If its based on a multi-decade rule set, does it count?

[UnSub]

Was it better balanced than the NWN PvE? Or did it come down to players tweaking their own shards?

[Outlawedprod]

Re: NDA

From a certain site's twitter "Apparently EA has come after us. We're not exactly thrilled about this considering we still see other sites up with content."

Apparently they are now back up.  I guess EA probably only bothers depending where they are hosted.

[Malakili]

Was it better balanced than the NWN PvE? Or did it come down to players tweaking their own shards?

It wasn't balanced.

[Sobelius]

PvP in DAOC didn't do it for me for the same reason it failed in WAR -- I hit DAOC level cap, where everyone said the real PvP game started, and suddenly faced a whole new grind and level of uselessness. Any of you try being a L50 R1 Armsman before ToA? And even after ToA things, as we all know, got even more horribly worse precisely because of the impact of PvE gear.

And balance? Please. Not just DAOC but balance in any MMO is not truly possible without removing everything that differentiates one character from another. (And you have to look at 1 vs 1 balance, group vs group balance, zerg vs zerg balance. Remember all of the arguments about Mids having the uber PvP classes, then Hibs being uber because of their hybrid class powers, and Albs always qqing of course?)

PvP in shooters works because everyone is *exactly* the same at the start of the larger battle/scenario/arena/instance -- at least until they grab a differentiating weapon or temporary buff. And when it's over all anyone gets are bragging rights points, nothing else. How many people would PvP in an MMO these days if all you got were points on a leader board and nothing to benefit your character in any way?


<derailed thread comment />
I wonder if the three faction setup in The Secret World will give us some DAOC-style "RvR".

[Nevermore]

The thing I really liked about DAoC pvp was how the old frontiers were set up:  Just persistent zones where everyone was flagged and pvp could happen.  I also liked the relics and keeps, and hunting down people in Darkness Falls when it switched hands was also fun.  Then when you were done you could scoot back into your pve-only zones and go back to the tremendously exciting pigmy goblin farming.

However, the actual balance of the classes was terrible.  And DAoC was a game where if you were a melee fighter, you'd run out of endurance very quickly and then be stuck doing nothing but auto-attacking.  If you were a magic user, you'd have to deal with an interrupt system that was so punishing you'd be stuck trying to autoattack someone with your staff if they were in melee range of you and you blew your one 'fast cast' spell.  And of course, if you had a buffbot you were a god compared to those who didn't have one.

So in once sense WoW actually has better balanced pvp than DAoC ever did.  For some reason though, it's just a lot less fun.  It feels more like gear-dependent e-sports than realm battles, which is why for all it's flaws and warts I still have more positive feelings towards the old, clunky DAoC rvr than I do towards WoW battlegrounds or the even worse arenas.

[Paelos]

Nevermore, here's my guess as to why you liked DAOC.

One, you were an Alb.

Two, you played in a consistent group with a class they wanted. I'm going to guess Sorc or Cleric. Maybe Necro for fun if you had that part of the game.

How close am I?

[Nevermore]

I had both an Alb and a Hib I regularly pvped with: a Minstrel and a Ranger.  Both solo, without a buffbot.

[Rasix]

Mythic PVE is just so god-fucking-awful. It was worse in WAR, which they seemed to even fuck up "mob runs at person and hits them".  You always felt like such a goddamned gimp in PVE.

WAR's PVP was great if you were in the top 2 levels of your tier.  Otherwise, not so much.

[Paelos]

I had both an Alb and a Hib I regularly pvped with: a Minstrel and a Ranger.  Both solo, without a buffbot.

My second guess was going to be dirty stealther.  

[Mrbloodworth]

Was it better balanced than the NWN PvE? Or did it come down to players tweaking their own shards?

It wasn't balanced.

After decades of refinement in the rule set. 

[Ingmar]

Was it better balanced than the NWN PvE? Or did it come down to players tweaking their own shards?

It wasn't balanced.

After decades of refinement in the rule set. 

Which means nothing, since it wasn't a PVP ruleset, it was a cooperative one.

[Mattemeo]

Nevermore, here's my guess as to why you liked DAOC.

One, you were an Alb.

Two, you played in a consistent group with a class they wanted. I'm going to guess Sorc or Cleric. Maybe Necro for fun if you had that part of the game.

How close am I?

I played on the same servers as Nevermore as both Hib and Alb; and as she's already pointed out you weren't close at all. I, on the other hand, played a Sorc. And as much as I was always welcome in a group, it was by far the hardest class to play well, due to being the absolute squishiest of all priority targets. I also played a solo Minstrel, like Nevermore. Lots of fun, I picked off Hybrid classes; I learned from getting my arse kicked while playing a Champion that Minstrels were bad, bad news.

I still regret never getting a Midgard char to PvP end-game. I loved the Skald. But thanks to ToA and all the cheating, the rot had set in.

[Mattemeo]

I think there are a lot of rose-colored balance glasses being pointed at DAOC. DAOC's PVP balance issues 'polluted' PVE at least as much as WoW's did in my experience. The only reason people notice it more in WoW is WoW's PVE is actually worth doing.

Rose-tinted glasses or not, I still don't think anyone's come as close to getting it right since pre-ToA DAoC. ToA really did wreck everything though, the first time PvE dropped by to leave PvP a huge 'haha fuck you' note.

[tazelbain]

Mythic PVE is just so god-fucking-awful. It was worse in WAR, which they seemed to even fuck up "mob runs at person and hits them".  You always felt like such a goddamned gimp in PVE.

WAR's PVP was great if you were in the top 2 levels of your tier.  Otherwise, not so much.

Which makes wonder why these games continue to half-ass the scaling.  Surely they have the data to know what statistical disadvantage a level 11 has to level 20 in a level 11 - 20 battleground and can hand out buffs to the level 11 until it's minimal.  Same goes with people in premades vs. those in not.  It seems brain dead to not do this.

[Sobelius]

ToA really did wreck everything though, the first time PvE dropped by to leave PvP a huge 'haha fuck you' note.

Though I agree, I'd guess folks who played pre-Trammel(?) UO think of that as the first such note. (Can't say for sure since I didn't get on the MMO train until EQ in 9/99.)

[Mrbloodworth]

Mythic PVE is just so god-fucking-awful. It was worse in WAR, which they seemed to even fuck up "mob runs at person and hits them".  You always felt like such a goddamned gimp in PVE.

WAR's PVP was great if you were in the top 2 levels of your tier.  Otherwise, not so much.

Which makes wonder why these games continue to half-ass the scaling.  Surely they have the data to know what statistical disadvantage a level 11 has to level 20 in a level 11 - 20 battleground and can hand out buffs to the level 11 until it's minimal.  Same goes with people in premades vs. those in not.  It seems brain dead to not do this.

At times, I beileave. This is simply giving people what they want. That level 20 LIKES that that 11 has no chance. Hes awesome at PvP don't cha know.

[Ingmar]

I think there are a lot of rose-colored balance glasses being pointed at DAOC. DAOC's PVP balance issues 'polluted' PVE at least as much as WoW's did in my experience. The only reason people notice it more in WoW is WoW's PVE is actually worth doing.

Rose-tinted glasses or not, I still don't think anyone's come as close to getting it right since pre-ToA DAoC. ToA really did wreck everything though, the first time PvE dropped by to leave PvP a huge 'haha fuck you' note.

I think if you'd ever played long-term on a realm as underpopulated as Mid on our server you wouldn't think that they came anywhere near 'getting it right'. For all of the theoretical goodness of their PVP structure, it was completely undone by population imbalance and the 'win more' nature of relics. WoW BG pvp, as artificial as it is, is still a lot more fun than playing the nightly 'hey let's take back all 7 keeps in our frontier from NPC guards so we have a prayer of getting into DF for an hour' game. Or the 'month of planning and scheduling every player in our realm to log in at once so we can take a relic, and then lose it the next night to a random PUG of the 500 Albs that happened to be on that night' game. At least the WoW stuff forces equal sides. The gear dependency thing takes an enormous back seat to that, IMO, and frankly the gear grind to respectability (honor-bought gear) is quite a lot less awful than the RR grind.

Gah, why do I still get so angry thinking about DAOC? I'm like one of those Trammel people. 

[Merusk]

On the "gear grind" part: Even as a frequent-loss Alliance char I have 10/15 pieces of honor gear after only 2 weeks of being 85.  That involves playing 2-3 hours on the weekends and only one "must win" random a day.  The rest is some BG I know the ally have a >40% chance of winning - AV - for an hour or so a night.

It gets boring, yes, but it's not in any way the long hard slog of weeks the way I heard DAOC or WAR were.

[Speedy Cerviche]

When DAoC was in its hayday and still moving up I think I was playing on UO Siege Perilous server and remember hearing all these people complaining about AOE CC spells dominating DAoC. I wasn't very tempted to try it. Was this exaggerated or not?