SWTOR

[Lantyssa]

That's new then.  They didn't when I last played.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah they have been adding stuff a chunk at a time over there, some of it also has to be translated for us as well.

[Merusk]

I think the huge piles of money going into it is what messes it up.  ME style combat would have gone over smashingly well.

I'm sorry, I missed it.  What part of ME didn't have you standing stock still emptying full clips into things to work down their health bar?

The sniping part.  I played an Infiltrator.  Very few things lived through more than one shot with the proper ammo loaded.  Those that did made more sense because you were whittling-away shields then armor/ biotics then health wend down very quickly.

Seems an easy fix for KOTOR... just have 3 health bars.....

[Murgos]

The sniping part.  I played an Infiltrator.  Very few things lived through more than one shot with the proper ammo loaded.  Those that did made more sense because you were whittling-away shields then armor/ biotics then health wend down very quickly.

Seems an easy fix for KOTOR... just have 3 health bars.....

I just watched a leaked IA video where the agent stealthed through 95% of the mission.  Careful use or terrain and stun darts (?), access a couple of computers, knock out a comm relay, plant some explosives and done.  Only had to fight twice the entire time.  It wasn't Thief but, then again, nothing is.

I'm pretty excited to play this game.

[Rasix]

The sniping part.  I played an Infiltrator.  Very few things lived through more than one shot with the proper ammo loaded.  Those that did made more sense because you were whittling-away shields then armor/ biotics then health wend down very quickly.

Seems an easy fix for KOTOR... just have 3 health bars.....

I just watched a leaked IA video where the agent stealthed through 95% of the mission.  Careful use or terrain and stun darts (?), access a couple of computers, knock out a comm relay, plant some explosives and done.  Only had to fight twice the entire time.  It wasn't Thief but, then again, nothing is.

I'm pretty excited to play this game.

edit: granted, I may just be misinterpreting "leaked" here.  I can unfurrow if needed.

[Paelos]

Careful, there's furrowing afoot!

[Furiously]

I sense a disturbance in the nda. It's as if a million leaked videos suddenly called out.

It sure would be nice if they were a bit more detailed about the early access bit.

[Draegan]

Of course I have no idea what video he's talking about.  But if I'm reading his post correctly, it appears that the player he watched just stealth through terrain like any Rogue would do in vanilla WOW to completed a quest where you just clicked on stuff, then restealthed.

[Margalis]

The thing about most games with stealth and diplomacy as options rather than the point of the game is there is always some boss that requires straight-up fighting.

Nobody is going to make a raid boss you can stealth around or reason with. I don't think anyway.

[Evildrider]

The sniping part.  I played an Infiltrator.  Very few things lived through more than one shot with the proper ammo loaded.  Those that did made more sense because you were whittling-away shields then armor/ biotics then health wend down very quickly.

Seems an easy fix for KOTOR... just have 3 health bars.....

I just watched a leaked IA video where the agent stealthed through 95% of the mission.  Careful use or terrain and stun darts (?), access a couple of computers, knock out a comm relay, plant some explosives and done.  Only had to fight twice the entire time.  It wasn't Thief but, then again, nothing is.

I'm pretty excited to play this game.

edit: granted, I may just be misinterpreting "leaked" here.  I can unfurrow if needed.

Your instincts are correct.

[Velorath]

The thing about most games with stealth and diplomacy as options rather than the point of the game is there is always some boss that requires straight-up fighting.

Nobody is going to make a raid boss you can stealth around or reason with. I don't think anyway.

The other issue is that bypassing all those mobs, you're also skipping out on the xp and loot you'd get from killing them (unless you do something like Mass Effect 2 where all your xp comes from completing missions, but that's obviously not how SWTOR is set up).

[Malakili]

The other issue is that bypassing all those mobs, you're also skipping out on the xp and loot you'd get from killing them (unless you do something like Mass Effect 2 where all your xp comes from completing missions, but that's obviously not how SWTOR is set up).

Yeah, always had this "problem" in WoW after I respecced feral.  In vanilla I was batshit crazy and leveled resto (well to be semi fair I guess the balance and feral tress were shit then, but still, what was I thinking?), but by the time TBC and later rolled around it was all feral leveling all the time and I stealthed past tons of content.  I guess the quicker turn around on quest XP makes up for it in terms of pure time, but I found myself doing the very end of Netherstorm before I hit 70, where as on my alts I hit 70 early in Netherstorm, most other things (rested exp, amount of dungeons done while leveling) were all relatively equal among them.

I'd love some sort of system which gave your experience for successfully getting past an enemy in any fashion.   In pencil and paper D&D we always used to give out exp for being clever and finding alternate solutions to problems, but I guess its a lot easier to do that when a person is in charge rather than having to program it all in from the outset.  Still, that'd be real neat.  4th edition has gone out of its way to add in rules for non combat encounters, I actually like them a bit less than the free form encounters we'd come up with in 3rd (and yes, I realize you can still do it freeform in 4th if you like), so maybe someone can try coming up with a non combat equivalent for an MMO.

edit: typo.

[Kirth]

edit: granted, I may just be misinterpreting "leaked" here.  I can unfurrow if needed.

Let the hate flow through you.

[01101010]

The other issue is that bypassing all those mobs, you're also skipping out on the xp and loot you'd get from killing them (unless you do something like Mass Effect 2 where all your xp comes from completing missions, but that's obviously not how SWTOR is set up).

Yeah, always had this "problem" in WoW after I respecced feral.  In vanilla I was batshit crazy and leveled resto (well to be semi fair I guess the balance and feral tress were shit then, but still, what was I thinking?), but by the time TBC and later rolled around it was all feral leveling all the time and I stealthed past tons of content.  I guess the quicker turn around on quest XP makes up for it in terms of pure time, but I found myself doing the very end of Netherstorm before I hit 70, where as on my alts I hit 80 early in Netherstorm, most other things (rested exp, amount of dungeons done while leveling) were all relatively equal among them.

I'd love some sort of system which gave your experience for successfully getting past an enemy in any fashion.   In pencil and paper D&D we always used to give out exp for being clever and finding alternate solutions to problems, but I guess its a lot easier to do that when a person is in charge rather than having to program it all in from the outset.  Still, that'd be real neat.  4th edition has gone out of its way to add in rules for non combat encounters, I actually like them a bit less than the free form encounters we'd come up with in 3rd (and yes, I realize you can still do it freeform in 4th if you like), so maybe someone can try coming up with a non combat equivalent for an MMO.

And Rift. I did a number of quests where I stealthed passed vast swaths of mobs to complete but found myself out of quests before the next hub would be available.

[Murgos]

edit: granted, I may just be misinterpreting "leaked" here.  I can unfurrow if needed.

Meh.  If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and go, "LALALALALA" that's on you, I don't have an NDA and I didn't have to break someones confidence to watch a youtube video so I'm not going to censor myself.  I'll come back to this thread sometime in the gfuture when it's not just built on pointless circular speculation and people are discussing things as they are rather than as they imagine them to be.

[Spiff]

so maybe someone can try coming up with a non combat equivalent for an MMO.

I think a solution was already mentioned: simply put the xp all in the quest rewards (perks, crafting, ...) and not on the mobs, the way ME2 handles it.
Is there any reason for mobs to give xp in an MMO like this?

You might miss out on some random loot droppage, but that's not really something I'd mind (you can still kill em all! if you must anyhow).

[Sjofn]

The problem there is if they have aggressive mobs, I would begin to really fucking resent having to kill them because they're hanging out near something I want to get to that isn't related to a quest I am currently doing. I already resent the overwhelming amount of random aggro mob bullshit I have to kill in Rift, if they didn't give XP I would probably drive to some dev's house and kick them in the nuts.

There's also the issue of if the combat is just fun to do no matter what (which I won't assume will be the case here, mind you). In CoX and CO, I just liked punching bad guys in the face for no reason other than they are bad guys and fighting a bunch of assholes at once BECAUSE I CAN is fun. But in CO (CoX to a lesser degree, and yes I remember when they nerfed street sweeping), you got squat for doing it, and it seemed weird to discourage your players from doing something that's just fun on its own because it's so aggressively a waste of your playtime compared to questing.


I never really felt like my stealthers were missing out on a LOT of XP doing the sneaky sneak, stab the one guy, sneak out thing, but that could be mostly because they were almost always in rested XP land. I never really pay attention to when I hit the cap, so long as I hit it without having to grind mobs, and I definitely never had to do that.

[Malakili]

The problem there is if they have aggressive mobs, I would begin to really fucking resent having to kill them because they're hanging out near something I want to get to that isn't related to a quest I am currently doing. I already resent the overwhelming amount of random aggro mob bullshit I have to kill in Rift, if they didn't give XP I would probably drive to some dev's house and kick them in the nuts.

There's also the issue of if the combat is just fun to do no matter what (which I won't assume will be the case here, mind you). In CoX and CO, I just liked punching bad guys in the face for no reason other than they are bad guys and fighting a bunch of assholes at once BECAUSE I CAN is fun. But in CO (CoX to a lesser degree, and yes I remember when they nerfed street sweeping), you got squat for doing it, and it seemed weird to discourage your players from doing something that's just fun on its own because it's so aggressively a waste of your playtime compared to questing.

Nailed it.

[Sobelius]

There's also the issue of if the combat is just fun to do no matter what ...

I have a rogue riftstalker/bladedancer/nightblade PvE build in RIFT that is a lot of fun to play -- I feel like I have great stealth, offense and defense options.  Shadow Assault (teleport behind the target and get an attack off) is flat out cool. A quest may tell me specifically whether I have to kill something or not, but at least I have a some fun choices about what I do along the way. I am hoping the smuggler/IA abilities in SWTOR will provide an equal number of play options.

[Nebu]

I have an idea.  Eliminate stealth from games with an xp grind and pvp component.   It's not even stealth the way it's implemented in MMOs.  It's invisibility. 

[Malakili]

I have an idea.  Eliminate stealth from games with an xp grind and pvp component.   It's not even stealth the way it's implemented in MMOs.  It's invisibility. 

That'd be neat if you could be sneaky legitimately.  Stealth has always been a mechanic in RPGs that is basically just "well, we need to make you sneaking around into a dice roll."  If aggro was based on things like a noise meter and line of sight, you could just sneak around, maybe with some skills to govern how much sound you make.  However, I can't think of a particularly better way to do it than the dice roll it is now when the term "aggro radius" still means something.  We've seen this done well in some games, but I'm not sure if could be worked into MMOs the way they are currently designed.

[kildorn]

Stealth gameplay is usually based around alternate routes of entry. It's invisibility in MMOs because, well, there's usually only one door and it's got a few dudes hanging out in front of it.

Basically, to make stealth gameplay in an MMO would require you to stop making it a "class" you stealthed with, but a gameplay choice anyone could be involved with.

.. And then who would gank lowbies?

edit: not to say I like how stealth is done, I just think that making stealth not invisibility would basically be "kill the idea of stealth classes, and make it a gameplay mechanic for everyone"

And I would so love ME2 style "end of mission = rewards" and maybe crafting loot or something off killed targets. Because ME2's combat was FUN, so stealth or not, I enjoyed getting into a firefight and didn't feel like it was a waste of my gaming time. But doing say, Blackrock Depths with rewards only at the end would suck. Actually, BRD with anything just sucks. And ME2 style loot at the end would also suck if you got a fucking trolly group that went to the last boss and kicked people/didn't do the fight because lol trolls. Sigh, people suck.

[Sky]

I have an idea.  Eliminate stealth from games with an xp grind and pvp component.   It's not even stealth the way it's implemented in MMOs.  It's invisibility. 

Or take pvp out of pve games 

The xp thing, I guess (as usual) I'm an outlier and I don't really pay attention. In CO, it was fun to fly around beating guys up, so that's what I did. Didn't even notice I didn't get a lot of xp, because I was having fun. In EQ2 I played with combat exp turned off completely on all but one character, so that should be an indicator of my feeling about combat exp :) But in TOR, it seems silly to worry about 'grinding' xp. I'm sure you can distill any game down into its basic components, but why ruin it for yourself? Sit back and enjoy the ride, invisibly.

[Mrbloodworth]

Stealth should work like Oblivion's sneak.

[Lantyssa]

As long as you have leveling, it's good to have everything provide a bit of xp.  Then no one feels like they're wasting their time.  The root problem is that there is xp at all, so making a balanced system is difficult and always will be since each game will have it's good and bad bits.  (Not that making a good system without xp is necessarily any easier.)

[Ginaz]

The only thing I can say without being inflicted with a furrowing of a lifetime is that I've now pre-ordered.

[Threash]

They could just make it like Deus Ex and give an exp bonus for doing a quest without being seen or aggroing anyone.

[Amaron]

I have an idea.  Eliminate stealth from games with an xp grind and pvp component.   It's not even stealth the way it's implemented in MMOs.  It's invisibility. 

Or take pvp out of pve games 

I can kind of agree with this but the "PvE game" categorization you're implying will never apply to a mass market MMO.   People who like at least some PvP in their theme park vastly outnumber PvE purists.

[Mrbloodworth]

Uh, most servers are PvE servers across most games. ( Still include arena type stuff though ).

[Amaron]

Uh, most servers are PvE servers across most games. ( Still include arena type stuff though ).

I'm not sure if you misread what I said or you actually believe there is a mass market MMO besides WoW yet.

[Mrbloodworth]

Wut.

[Sky]

I'm not sure if you misread what I said or you actually believe there is a mass market MMO besides WoW yet.

Never stop with your entertaining craziness.

[Paelos]

PVP with levels and gear =  


I don't care if you put that retarded sideshow in your game for the kiddies who enjoy azzraping noobs, just keep it cornered off by itself. No pve to pvp skill balancing, thanks. That's pointless.

[Mrbloodworth]

I keep forgetting wow was the first MMO.

[Amaron]

Are we seriously disagreeing over the meaning of mass market?  It looks to me like some people getting butt hurt because I said battlegrounds are popular in WoW and you can't have your PvE only game.