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Author Topic: SWTOR  (Read 1872601 times)
Draegan
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Reply #8610 on: July 29, 2011, 07:22:14 AM

I too have been waiting for the flexible scaling raid system for a long time. It takes all the bricks out of the briefcase for a raid leader. The game that figures out how to do it is going to print money if it's polished well.

Being able to appropriately balance a raid encounter in a dynamic fashion would probably be extremely difficult for any complex encounter.  I imagine it would be easier for simpler encounters but when you get to the truly challenging and fun fights, it would almost be impossible if you want to maintain a consistent level of difficulty and quality.
Sky
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Reply #8611 on: July 29, 2011, 07:29:34 AM

I'm quite happy about the loot bag announcement. And I hope Drae is right on the collection angle that could put longevity into the system. EQ2 seems to be really working that angle with their next expansion, hopefully BWA is taking notes.

And I figured someone was just moving the cake...but there's still that moment of OHNOES SOMEONE STOLE MAH CAKE
Paelos
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Reply #8612 on: July 29, 2011, 07:33:29 AM

Any time you take loot distribution out of the hands of people, that's a good thing in my view.

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Malakili
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Reply #8613 on: July 29, 2011, 07:35:10 AM

Any time you take loot distribution out of the hands of people, that's a good thing in my view.

It seems to be the way of the future, even Diablo 3 is going to have individual loot drops in multiplayer.
Lantyssa
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Reply #8614 on: July 29, 2011, 07:40:37 AM

Because trying to balance the same encounter for multiple sizes above a trivial difficulty is hard.  Trying to do so without regurgitating the handful of mechanics that scale somewhat cleanly among group sizes that can be double/half of one another is even harder.  (Hint: Fire being bad isn't one of those mechanics.)
Like City of Heroes did six years ago?

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #8615 on: July 29, 2011, 07:42:46 AM

Because trying to balance the same encounter for multiple sizes above a trivial difficulty is hard.  Trying to do so without regurgitating the handful of mechanics that scale somewhat cleanly among group sizes that can be double/half of one another is even harder.  (Hint: Fire being bad isn't one of those mechanics.)
Like City of Heroes did six years ago?

Or LOTRO skirmishes.

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Malakili
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Reply #8616 on: July 29, 2011, 08:02:32 AM

I dunno I think he has a point.  If the encounter has sufficiently complex mechanics to make it interesting it probably isn't trivial to make it scalable.  You can scale difficulty easily sure, but that doens't mean the fights are actually good.
Paelos
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Reply #8617 on: July 29, 2011, 08:09:40 AM

I dunno I think he has a point.  If the encounter has sufficiently complex mechanics to make it interesting it probably isn't trivial to make it scalable.  You can scale difficulty easily sure, but that doens't mean the fights are actually good.

All mechanics don't have to be scalable. In fact, you can bring in new mechanics as size increases while the rewards increase as well.

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eldaec
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Reply #8618 on: July 29, 2011, 08:12:21 AM

Scaling for solo to 150 is tough. Scaling from 4 to 20... not so much.

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Paelos
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Reply #8619 on: July 29, 2011, 08:48:51 AM

My ideal game would scale from 3-12, with mechanics changes at 6, 9, and 12.

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Sky
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Reply #8620 on: July 29, 2011, 08:52:41 AM

They're using 4 as a minimum due to companions. "Solo" is actually two players, a duo is four. If you have three players, you pull out the most useful companion to fill the group. I actually expect to see a lot more tank and healer builds because dps seems much easier to automate with a companion. Tank/healer with two dps companions is probably going to be common.

The guy doing the Bounty Hunter VO is wolverine from the X-Men Legends/MUA series :)
luckton
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Reply #8621 on: July 29, 2011, 09:00:38 AM

They're using 4 as a minimum due to companions. "Solo" is actually two players, a duo is four. If you have three players, you pull out the most useful companion to fill the group. I actually expect to see a lot more tank and healer builds because dps seems much easier to automate with a companion. Tank/healer with two dps companions is probably going to be common.

The guy doing the Bounty Hunter VO is wolverine from the X-Men Legends/MUA series :)

I don't think they've said that companions will be allowed in raids...I could be wrong though.  They very well may allow it which means  you could 'maybe' do raids with just 8 people?

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fuser
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Reply #8622 on: July 29, 2011, 09:14:38 AM

Can companions fill out raid slots?
WindupAtheist
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Reply #8623 on: July 29, 2011, 09:15:42 AM

Nah. The only new MMO I've tried for the first time in the last ten years has been WoW, and only because literally every single person I played games with was playing it.
So...WUA will be playing TOR?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Weirdly enough, I'm not hearing much about SWTOR outside of the usual places I'd expect to. That is to say here, WoW forum "I QUIT" threads, places like that. Now granted a lot of the MMO people I talk to on a personal basis are fellow near-oblivious UO diehards, but still, even those people noticed WoW.

This will be a big release, it might even do the million-plus sustained that has been heretofore unattainable for anyone but Blizzard, but I don't think it's going to be the universal gaming-culture milestone that WoW was by any measure.

Aren't paladins tanks? I thought that was one of the most popular classes .. or did they change enough with the specializations that you can have a weak tank with high dps and that's what everyone does? (When WoW launched I remember people complaining that pali's had good DPS and good tank ability with the self heal - so why play anything else?).

All classes have a DPS spec in addition to whatever tanking and healing they may be able to do, and that's the spec almost everyone takes.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 09:34:16 AM by WindupAtheist »

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Merusk
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Reply #8624 on: July 29, 2011, 09:37:56 AM

This will be a big release, it might even do the million-plus sustained that has been heretofore unattainable for anyone but Blizzard, but I don't think it's going to be the universal gaming-culture milestone that WoW was by any measure.

Depends on if we can get Geldon to doomcast it or not.   awesome, for real

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eldaec
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Reply #8625 on: July 29, 2011, 10:55:13 AM

This will be a big release, it might even do the million-plus sustained that has been heretofore unattainable for anyone but Blizzard, but I don't think it's going to be the universal gaming-culture milestone that WoW was by any measure.

Suspect you are right, I'd even say the Star Wars licence is probably a drag on sales once you get above that.

Also WoW only has, what 3 million subscribers in the west?

Doing over a million does put it in the same bracket in NA and Europe.

It would need to break through in Asia to do any better.

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Ingmar
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Reply #8626 on: July 29, 2011, 10:59:47 AM

Because trying to balance the same encounter for multiple sizes above a trivial difficulty is hard.  Trying to do so without regurgitating the handful of mechanics that scale somewhat cleanly among group sizes that can be double/half of one another is even harder.  (Hint: Fire being bad isn't one of those mechanics.)
Like City of Heroes did six years ago?

CoH doesn't have to worry about things like "does this group have someone to interrupt" or "does this group have someone to remove this sort of debuff" etc. So while you could simplify all fights down to CoH style brawls and 'solve' the issue I think the game would lose something. I'm happy CoH still exists but I definitely don't want all my PVE games to be like that.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #8627 on: July 29, 2011, 11:08:50 AM

Well, except CoH lets you tackle problems in different ways.  You can slug it out, you can use several types of control, you can AoE burn things down, etc. rather than "You must complete this fight in exactly this way.  Please bring 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 dps.  The gods of DIKU have spoken!"

I'll grant you I'd like a little more complexity than CoH. but it does allow for variety.  Something sorely lacking in most other MMOs.  (And being locked into an advanced class isn't assuaging my concern about this in SWTOR.)

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Sky
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Reply #8628 on: July 29, 2011, 11:17:23 AM

The AC limited respec, where right now they're saying it's easy at 10 (when you get your AC) but almost impossible at 20 or 30, is really a red flag. I'll enjoy the game for what it is, but when Rift is out there just allowing unprecedented flexiblity, it seems so archaic. But I think all mmo design is a bit odd when not viewed through the WoW filter.
Ginaz
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Reply #8629 on: July 29, 2011, 11:20:40 AM

This will be a big release, it might even do the million-plus sustained that has been heretofore unattainable for anyone but Blizzard, but I don't think it's going to be the universal gaming-culture milestone that WoW was by any measure.

Suspect you are right, I'd even say the Star Wars licence is probably a drag on sales once you get above that.

Also WoW only has, what 3 million subscribers in the west?

Doing over a million does put it in the same bracket in NA and Europe.

It would need to break through in Asia to do any better.

From what I've heard, the Star Wars franchise was never close to being as popular in Asia as it is in the West.  I don't expect huge numbers in Asia (partly due to the fact that it won't be released there at the same time as well) so it probably won't have as many overall players as WoW does.
Mosesandstick
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Reply #8630 on: July 29, 2011, 11:29:08 AM

SW is definitely not as popular in Asia as it is in the West, which is one of the reasons why it would be a miracle if SWTOR was as popular as WoW (in terms of sub numbers). Blizzard is also a much bigger name than Bioware in Asia.
Ingmar
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Reply #8631 on: July 29, 2011, 11:41:27 AM

Well, except CoH lets you tackle problems in different ways.  You can slug it out, you can use several types of control, you can AoE burn things down, etc. rather than "You must complete this fight in exactly this way.  Please bring 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 dps.  The gods of DIKU have spoken!"

I'll grant you I'd like a little more complexity than CoH. but it does allow for variety.  Something sorely lacking in most other MMOs.  (And being locked into an advanced class isn't assuaging my concern about this in SWTOR.)

Yeah, I get where you're coming from, the problem is CoH doesn't really do boss fights in the traditional MMO sense so they don't have to worry about all the issues that come with complex scripted encounters, for the most part.

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luckton
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Reply #8632 on: July 29, 2011, 12:02:47 PM

The AC limited respec, where right now they're saying it's easy at 10 (when you get your AC) but almost impossible at 20 or 30, is really a red flag. I'll enjoy the game for what it is, but when Rift is out there just allowing unprecedented flexiblity, it seems so archaic. But I think all mmo design is a bit odd when not viewed through the WoW filter.

The price to pay for that 4th column deal.  I don't mind...I'll get a tank to max level and reroll a DPS or healer as a new race ^_^

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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eldaec
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Reply #8633 on: July 29, 2011, 12:09:02 PM

CoH combat - espeicially support character mechanics - involve a damn sight more decision making in their brawls than just about anything except EQ2.

They don't have many 'follow this script for success' set pieces, but honestly I never missed them.

One thing that does disappoint me about SWTOR is I'm not seeing much in the way of interesting control or support abilities. It all seems to be direct damage or direct heal - hopefully something more interesting is hidden in the detail.

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eldaec
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Reply #8634 on: July 29, 2011, 12:16:52 PM


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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luckton
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Reply #8635 on: July 29, 2011, 12:20:03 PM

One thing that does disappoint me about SWTOR is I'm not seeing much in the way of interesting control or support abilities. It all seems to be direct damage or direct heal - hopefully something more interesting is hidden in the detail.

They're probably trying to stay true to the movies and such along with the fast-pace combat.  At any point in the movies did you see Vader choke a bitch for 45+ seconds?  There were some moments, sure, but nothing like a polymorph or sap a la WoW.

Also, eat some fresh cake Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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Lantyssa
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Reply #8636 on: July 29, 2011, 12:52:07 PM

At what point do we see Darth Heel'r keep Darth Brikk healed to full while D-PS and Dame Aage take down their opponents?

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palmer_eldritch
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Reply #8637 on: July 29, 2011, 12:57:25 PM

At what point do we see Darth Heel'r keep Darth Brikk healed to full while D-PS and Dame Aage take down their opponents?

I know you're being sarcastic but the moment they add playable robots to the game I am going to make a character called D-PSR
01101010
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Reply #8638 on: July 29, 2011, 01:03:01 PM

At what point do we see Darth Heel'r keep Darth Brikk healed to full while D-PS and Dame Aage take down their opponents?

I know you're being sarcastic but the moment they add playable robots to the game I am going to make a character called D-PSR

Line starts behind me buddy.

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Draegan
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Reply #8639 on: July 29, 2011, 01:09:23 PM

I'll be D33-PS
caladein
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Reply #8640 on: July 29, 2011, 01:18:24 PM

Because trying to balance the same encounter for multiple sizes above a trivial difficulty is hard.  Trying to do so without regurgitating the handful of mechanics that scale somewhat cleanly among group sizes that can be double/half of one another is even harder.  (Hint: Fire being bad isn't one of those mechanics.)
Like City of Heroes did six years ago?

Or LOTRO skirmishes.

I never played CoH at a high level but LotRO is the case in point.  LotRO fudges its scaling by not introducing certain lieutenants until certain sizes but even then gets it wrong.  Duos are much harder than solos and trios and a lot of maps are simply not designed around having twelve players fighting in the same area (or are and the smaller sizes are designed to be much easier).

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Lantyssa
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Reply #8641 on: July 29, 2011, 01:30:08 PM

At least they try and give players the option.

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eldaec
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Reply #8642 on: July 29, 2011, 01:54:08 PM

Also, eat some fresh cake Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

That is exactly what my statement was based on.

The widely available skill trees look pretty limited.

The vanishingly small number of abilities on any character in official videos also don't inspire.


Ofc you don't play bioware games for the combat model etc...

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SnakeCharmer
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Reply #8643 on: July 29, 2011, 02:02:53 PM

Why do you need 100 abilities or skills when 90 of them are redundant?
Sjofn
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Reply #8644 on: July 29, 2011, 02:05:40 PM

You know, I am totally cool with a limited number of abilities at this point. I'm sick of having 497453726354 abilities that are slightly different, but different enough that I need to remember they exist in case variant A is better than variants B and C for a particular situation.

Surely Guild Wars showed us that you don't need a bajillion abilities available at any given moment, right?

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