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Author Topic: Does this game get better as you level?  (Read 39446 times)
Nebu
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Reply #105 on: September 09, 2008, 12:37:51 PM

Here is one major thing I see happening with world pvp that will eventually be the death of it:  Premades for Scenarios.

Is there some mechanic I'm missing that will prevent this from being an issue?

The only mechanic that I envision they could put in place would be incentives.  If rewards come faster and are more fun in world pvp, then premades will be more apt to participate.  Though... you should recall that DAoC eventually evolved into RvR, 8v8, and 1v1 subsets (granted, it took years).  I ran in many 8v8 groups that would have easily doubled our rp's per night had we simply farmed the zerg.  After a point in the life of the game, players prefer to do what they enjoy rather than chasing yet another carrot.  Whether this translates to WAR in a post-WoW world remains to be seen.  

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Fraeg
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Reply #106 on: September 09, 2008, 12:50:38 PM

cevik:

i have seen exactly what you are describing several times over the months.   nothing like being in phase 3 of a pq when your tank, healers, etc. vanish leaving you holding the bag of shit and a very angry hero mob.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #107 on: September 09, 2008, 12:51:31 PM

cevik:

i have seen exactly what you are describing several times over the months.   nothing like being in phase 3 of a pq when your tank, healers, etc. vanish leaving you holding the bag of shit and a very angry hero mob.

That was me last night. *poof*

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Abelian75
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Reply #108 on: September 09, 2008, 12:58:44 PM

God, I'm a big, whiny, overly-analytical killjoy.

Despite all my random pretentious tech-ramblings, this game IS pretty goddamn fun.
Nebu
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Reply #109 on: September 09, 2008, 01:05:09 PM

God, I'm a big, whiny, overly-analytical killjoy.

Despite all my random pretentious tech-ramblings, this game IS pretty goddamn fun.

That's exactly how I feel at this point.  I'm having fun with the game and they will get my money.  I just feel dirty about it knowing that it should be much more polished than it is yet I still support it. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
trias_e
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Reply #110 on: September 09, 2008, 01:12:16 PM

Quote
This appears to be one of those cases where the WAR guys decided not to learn from the mistakes of WoW, and instead forge their own path.  Now WAR is going to have the exact same issues, without the easy fix that WoW had (because the entire system is based on those BGs on a per server basis).  In WAR on the underpopulated side you are going to, as a PUGer, have to wait for an hour to get a BG, then get likely rolled in 2 minutes by a premade group using vent.

Well, there should be an interesting dynamic here.  I think there are a couple different possibilities how things will play out in the end.  The underpopulated side might have an advantage in scenarios, but they are at a disadvantage in open RvR.  Instead of running scenarios, the overpopulated side can go around, take all of the underpopulated sides keeps, forcing the other side into the real world.  Best case is that a good mix of both is essential to success, with the overpopulated realm having a slight edge in open PvP and the underpopulated realm having a slight edge in scenarios.  The worst case is that the overpopulated realm just sits in Open PvP zerging the few poor souls that go out there, and scenarios hardly ever run at all.

Who knows what it will be like in end game.  I suppose alot of it will have to do with how fun and important open RvR is.  One significant possibility is that realm-size dependent queueing into the server will help the population issues quite a bit over time.  Many solo players will likely change servers or change realms early on if they have to wait 30 minutes to get in the game.  Of course, if they make leveling harder, this becomes less and less feasible, which is just one reason they need to keep the leveling speed quick.

One thing about premades in WAR is that I don't believe you can join a scenario as a warband.  Of course, multiple groups can join the scenario queue at the same time, but it becomes less likely that you'll all get in the same scenario with each group you add.  I'm guessing that most scenarios will involve at least 1 highly organized premade 6 man group, but it won't be as in WoW where it's just straight up PUG vs Premade.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 01:14:05 PM by trias_e »
amiable
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Reply #111 on: September 09, 2008, 01:16:21 PM

God, I'm a big, whiny, overly-analytical killjoy.

Despite all my random pretentious tech-ramblings, this game IS pretty goddamn fun.

This.   My fiancee (wife in about a month) played her first castle siege and defense last night.  I got tired and went to bed and she stayed behind because she was so into the killing.  In our enitre 5+ years of game playing this has never, ever happened.  Say what you wil about the technical problems, it's a goddamn fun game.
cevik
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Reply #112 on: September 09, 2008, 01:20:08 PM

Say what you wil about the technical problems, it's a goddamn fun game.

Hmm, it's almost like I've heard that said before about some other game..

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amiable
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Reply #113 on: September 09, 2008, 01:21:56 PM

Say what you wil about the technical problems, it's a goddamn fun game.

Hmm, it's almost like I've heard that said before about some other game..

Yes, practically every PC game that has come out since 1993.
Oz
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Reply #114 on: September 09, 2008, 01:22:39 PM

Quote
Quote from: amiable on Today at 12:16:21 PMSay what you wil about the technical problems, it's a goddamn fun game.

Hmm, it's almost like I've heard that said before about some other game..

Yeah...i think i learned my leason from AoC.  I'll wait several months before thinking about trying this game.  Which is just too bad.
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Reply #115 on: September 09, 2008, 01:23:42 PM

Obviously we're in a pretty subjective area here in some ways, as I found Conan's combat to be clunky too - more clunky than WoW for sure, less clunky than the current state of WAR.

One thing I've noticed, and I'm not sure if it was just lag or what, but when I was messing around on a BW, I found I had to wait for the fireball I had just cast to actually travel through the air and hit the target before it would let me cast the next one. If everything with a travel time is being treated that way that might go a long way to explaining some of the problems people are having with responsiveness and 'spell not ready' type messages.

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HRose
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Reply #116 on: September 09, 2008, 01:27:44 PM

Yeah...i think i learned my leason from AoC.  I'll wait several months before thinking about trying this game.  Which is just too bad.
Bad idea.

Warhammer is by far the most social-oriented game to come out in a long time.

The fun is strictly bound to players' activity and all the options being accessible. The *most* fun, no matter of technical problems, is going to be at release. And those technical problems do not even seem so critical.

A few months down the line you could find empty zones and a progressive specialization in players' organization that would make the game much less accessible and fun. Play it while it's fresh, accessible and casual-friendly. What happens a few months after launch is unpredictable.

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Reply #117 on: September 09, 2008, 01:49:31 PM

Yeah...i think i learned my leason from AoC.  I'll wait several months before thinking about trying this game.  Which is just too bad.
Bad idea.

Warhammer is by far the most social-oriented game to come out in a long time.

The fun is strictly bound to players' activity and all the options being accessible. The *most* fun, no matter of technical problems, is going to be at release. And those technical problems do not even seem so critical.

A few months down the line you could find empty zones and a progressive specialization in players' organization that would make the game much less accessible and fun. Play it while it's fresh, accessible and casual-friendly. What happens a few months after launch is unpredictable.

So you are predictiing it's going to flop because newbs after the first few months won't get beyong the first 30 days?

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HRose
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Reply #118 on: September 09, 2008, 02:12:11 PM

So you are predictiing it's going to flop because newbs after the first few months won't get beyong the first 30 days?
Not "flop" but it is going to be an issue. All mmorpgs become increasingly less accessible as time passes, it's one of the main reasons behind progressive declines. For Warhammer, being focused on public activities (PQs, Scenarios, RvR) the problem will appear sooner and have a more significant impact.

As I said, unpredictable. it's going to be less welcoming and fun for new players, so the potential subscription base could be reduced and not hold well in the longer term.

If in DAoC it took years for players to strictly specialize, in Warhammer things could evolve at a much faster speed.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #119 on: September 09, 2008, 02:17:59 PM

Ok, what's up with the bullets and arrows moving at the speed of a turtle? It's as if my character threw the arrow from his hand. Another thing thats really annoying is that when someone shoots an arrow at me and i move, the arrow just homes in on me like a missile. Also, what's up with the bows? They don't even have strings OR arrows. It's just so annoying looking at it.

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Evildrider
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Reply #120 on: September 09, 2008, 02:28:14 PM

God, I'm a big, whiny, overly-analytical killjoy.

Despite all my random pretentious tech-ramblings, this game IS pretty goddamn fun.

That's exactly how I feel at this point.  I'm having fun with the game and they will get my money.  I just feel dirty about it knowing that it should be much more polished than it is yet I still support it. 

I usually hate PvP in mmo's, but damn if I didn't sit here for like 8 hours straight doing RvR yesterday.  I'm really having a good time playing, even with alot of the minor annoyances.  This game is still way more polished feeling then AoC was. 
cevik
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Reply #121 on: September 09, 2008, 02:34:47 PM

Bad idea.

Warhammer is by far the most social-oriented game to come out in a long time.

The fun is strictly bound to players' activity and all the options being accessible. The *most* fun, no matter of technical problems, is going to be at release. And those technical problems do not even seem so critical.

A few months down the line you could find empty zones and a progressive specialization in players' organization that would make the game much less accessible and fun. Play it while it's fresh, accessible and casual-friendly. What happens a few months after launch is unpredictable.

In defense of HRose, I think multiple people in this thread are currently arguing his point for him right now without knowing it:

I usually hate PvP in mmo's, but damn if I didn't sit here for like 8 hours straight doing RvR yesterday.  I'm really having a good time playing, even with alot of the minor annoyances.

My fiancee (wife in about a month) played her first castle siege and defense last night.  I got tired and went to bed and she stayed behind because she was so into the killing.  In our enitre 5+ years of game playing this has never, ever happened.  Say what you wil about the technical problems, it's a goddamn fun game.

Right now the PvP game is accessible to just about anyone, because everyone is sorta trying to figure it out, hasn't gotten the gear/organization/drive to be super competitive.  Once the game is a few months old and you aren't one of the PvP insiders and you're just pugging it, you'll hear a massive wailing sound as people queue up solo for pvp and end up destroyed.

At least, that's one potential outcome with a serious possibility of happening.

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Oz
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Reply #122 on: September 09, 2008, 02:50:18 PM

Quote
The *most* fun, no matter of technical problems, is going to be at release.

Depends on what your definition of fun is.  I always play these games with 2-5 real life friends so we usually only ever have to pug a couple people at most (depending on what classes we play).  so i'm not usually too upset about coming in late to the game.  I don't mind not being in the uber-group who have rr23092430 b/c they played from day 1, there's always someone i can smish who has about the same amount of progression as i.
MrHat
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Reply #123 on: September 09, 2008, 03:25:50 PM

Are there respecs?
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #124 on: September 09, 2008, 03:29:46 PM

This game is still way more polished feeling then AoC was. 

I can't agree.  Ill just quote myself.

Quote
for a game using old tech, rather precedented systems, i can't believe this game is in the state its in, really. Especially in comparison with the ration of shitt AOC got for its technical issues... The technologically difference between the two make the issues that WAR has, laughable. Seriously...texture loading? At least AOC was compiling shaders and about 4 layers of texture information with a draw distance that WAR cant seem to acheave even on max.

From a Tech standpoint, this game should be running flawlessly, ESPECIALLY considering they have used this engine 2 times already (i'm sure each with some additions) Its not.

I have also already seen MANY flipped polygons, Miss-weighted NPC's ( Drumming orc in the starting area), incorrect animations (Watch someone get catapulted) Stray polygons (Head over here, Entire row of polygons -----> That way), Ridiculous AI and pathing, Textures right in my face still loading or transitioning to high rez (LOD issues ALL OVER the place), The giant in the PQ (first one you encounter) with the squigg bomb twitching like a mad man, one second picking up the bomb, the other carrying a "Huge weight of air" the next because it de-mounted. The list does go on.

Combine all this with the janky combat that has been talked about here. I wonder if they even looked at their game (you telling me no one had seen that orc?)

Sure the games fun. Polished, hell no. Especially considering they are using older tech, and an engine they have used before and no real new paradigm shift in its features for the basics (such as cues combat).. The stuff listed above should have been a no brainier.

Yes, i'm having fun.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 03:31:23 PM by Mrbloodworth »

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Evildrider
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Reply #125 on: September 09, 2008, 03:29:56 PM

You can respec as far as I've seen.
Fraeg
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Reply #126 on: September 09, 2008, 04:44:50 PM

Are there respecs?

as many as you want and all for free*


* - unless they ninja change shit on release, but it has always been free in beta


Edit- although for renown abilities respecs once you respec there is a bug where you have to relog to be able to choose your new specs.  Bug has been in game for many months and is very annoying... but hardly game breaking.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 04:52:34 PM by Fraeg »

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Nebu
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Reply #127 on: September 09, 2008, 04:51:18 PM

* - unless they ninja change shit on release, but it has always been free in beta

I was wondering this last night.  It's a great way to create a money sink. I hope that it stays free, but I rather doubt that it will.

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Fraeg
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Reply #128 on: September 09, 2008, 04:59:02 PM

I have absolutely been loving the endless free respecs... i shudder to think that they would, at the last minute make such a drastic change  ACK!.  I am hoping they learned that:  Killing a dragon in order to change your build is no fun.

Punishing the players with a money sink for the desire to experiment with builds has always seemed like the work of Cthulu

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Reply #129 on: September 09, 2008, 05:06:51 PM

I would almost count on there being a charge after release. 
Fraeg
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Reply #130 on: September 09, 2008, 05:15:16 PM

I would almost count on there being a charge after release. 


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Ingmar
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Reply #131 on: September 09, 2008, 05:26:05 PM

There will probably be a price, but the button is right there in the UI, I wouldn't expect there to be any requirement besides money.

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LC
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Reply #132 on: September 09, 2008, 06:35:25 PM

Tried it again for the first time in a few months last night. The combat feels like one of those low budget Korean mmos now. I think the pvp lite crowd will come, but they will get bored and leave for wotlk.
ajax34i
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Reply #133 on: September 09, 2008, 07:04:26 PM

Bad idea.

Warhammer is by far the most social-oriented game to come out in a long time.

The *most* fun, no matter of technical problems, is going to be at release.

I'm going to wait and hope that they're successful enough that they're opening new servers every few months, like WoW, and I'll go to one of these new servers and hope that it's not dominated by uberguilds just yet, or if it is, that I can grow with one.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #134 on: September 09, 2008, 10:14:13 PM

I hope they don't open any more servers, The RvR areas on my server are dead.

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Hawkbit
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Reply #135 on: September 10, 2008, 12:13:38 AM

I hope they don't open any more servers, The RvR areas on my server are dead.

And it begins.... I think this is going to be a problem in 3-6 months post-release.  There's simply too many places to rvr in this game.  Just like having 3 different PQ areas for a Chapter.  One of them is overcrowded and the other two are empty.  It's a broken design that will need fixed on the fly by Mythic as the game grows.  If they're not fast with fixes, the game will flounder. 
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #136 on: September 10, 2008, 03:51:07 AM

I hope they don't open any more servers, The RvR areas on my server are dead.

And it begins.... I think this is going to be a problem in 3-6 months post-release.  There's simply too many places to rvr in this game.  Just like having 3 different PQ areas for a Chapter.  One of them is overcrowded and the other two are empty.  It's a broken design that will need fixed on the fly by Mythic as the game grows.  If they're not fast with fixes, the game will flounder. 

PQ's are nice, they shouldn't be substitutes for dungeons though.

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amiable
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Reply #137 on: September 10, 2008, 05:46:58 AM

I would almost count on there being a charge after release. 

I believe mythic has already stated there will be, they let folks change specs in open Beta so they can try things out.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #138 on: September 10, 2008, 08:45:36 AM

I hope they don't open any more servers, The RvR areas on my server are dead.

And it begins.... I think this is going to be a problem in 3-6 months post-release.  There's simply too many places to rvr in this game.  Just like having 3 different PQ areas for a Chapter.  One of them is overcrowded and the other two are empty.  It's a broken design that will need fixed on the fly by Mythic as the game grows.  If they're not fast with fixes, the game will flounder. 

Of the 4 in the Greenskin starting area, only 3 are ever used, the 4th one is off the main trail, the rest you have to pass through to get some where. and the RvR area in the zone is dead, completely, not to mention that the other zone in tier 1 is also dead.

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Threash
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Reply #139 on: September 10, 2008, 09:17:25 AM

Did anyone seriously believe for one second respeccing would be free?

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