Does this game get better as you level?

[slog]

They definitely need to bolster people to the highest level of the tier...the loot advantage (and having more spells/tactics/whatever) is easily enough for the higher level players.  Also, consider putting a ton of awesome PQs in the lower part of the tier with nice to loot to help out the lower levels.  It's still never going to be good.  Joining a scenario before level 7 definitely ain't fun, and I can imagine it's just as bad at level 12 against level 20s.

i had to use tweezers to get the splinters out of my sphincter last night after meeting a lvl 18 black orc on my lvl 12 witch hunter. However, that was the only encounter that really stuck out in my mind as a case of "i don't have a fucking chance in hell here"  Not a big fan of the changes they made to the stonetalon scenario.


perhaps i have just been brainwashed into accepting that anyone who has a few lvls on me has a good chance of kicking my ass. Regardless, it still seems in my mind to be better than what happened in WoW bgs to you if you weren't max lvl for the bracket.

That's fine, as long as Mythic puts into the Bolster mousover something like

Your Rank has been increased to 8!  You are still a noob and will be 2 shotted instead if one shotted.  Go PvE you idiot

[Venkman]

Great idea. A la Disgaea. If you reincarnate your char (re-roll) the next cycle you gain XP much faster. That is GOOD STUFF.

See:  Arguments for and against the /level command.

That happens anyway though. Newbie areas are inherently boring the firfth time through because your character is a complete gimp outside of the one, maybe two, abilities you need there. Boredom with a cumbersome newbie/early game prevents alt'ing more than anything else. The best way to combat this to make leveling so much better on the second and third go around that getting out of the newbie areas is all but painless.

As long is it can't be used to impact other players, twinking is ok. Smart PvP games don't let it happen, and we're long past the point of FBSS/Fungi letting people "own" zones/no-alternative lucrative spots. And a little amount of cheating that you let players figure out goes a long way towards retention (through "personalized experience) if you can't afford a constant stream of new PvE content or PvP maps.

[Draegan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G6d7TFVoy4

Updated endgame PVP podcast and how the game works.

[Falconeer]

I have to tell this.

a) Some of you know how much I hate World of Warcraft.

b) Still, the combat in Warhammer isn't satisfying or compelling or viscerally fun as WoW's. I'd say it has to do with sounds and with cooldown timer feeling obtrusive.

c) Coming from Conan, every other MMORPG's combat (including WoW's) feels ridiculous, sluggish and simply unfun. It will be tough for me to endure this. I can see the features, the polish and lots of other good things. But fighting, PvP or PvE doesn't change it but I'd say it's WAY more noticeable in PvP, feels so bland and boring compared to AoC. Dammit!

[Azazel]

I am SO not playing this until a few months after release.   

[slog]

b) Still, the combat in Warhammer isn't satisfying or compelling or viscerally fun as WoW's. I'd say it has to do with sounds and with cooldown timer feeling obtrusive.

For me, it's the lack of feedback.  In WoW, when I cast a spell, I can tell if it did something to the other guy or not.  When I do the same in WAR, I don't even know if it landed most of the time. 

[Falconeer]

Yes, Slog. That.

It's not even about the oomph or something, it's the very basic of HURTING mobs.
Plus something that I can't pin down in the skills cooldown and enqueing system makes it even lees feedback-y, so dull.

Combat plays too much like LotRO and not enough like WoW to me (let alone Conan).

[slog]

Yes, Slog. That.

It's not even about the oomph or something, it's the very basic of HURTING mobs.
Plus something that I can't pin down in the skills cooldown and enqueing system makes it even lees feedback-y, so dull.

Combat plays too much like LotRO and not enough like WoW to me (let alone Conan).

I also get these random 'spell not ready' (I forget the exact phrase) at times when I think the spell should be ready.

[cevik]

I also get these random 'spell not ready' (I forget the exact phrase) at times when I think the spell should be ready.

This was my major complaint back at the end of the last preview weekend.  It was supposed to be fixed by now (with the .3 second slack timer or whatever they called it).  I just couldn't find enough interest to try things out this time around so I never logged in.  Thanks for letting me know the issue still exists. :)

[Mrbloodworth]

Its as if the whole combat system is out of sync with the server....and the client is just "Tweening" things until it gets word from the server.

And fuck a bunch of "Target is not attackable" while they sit there, and attack me.

[Vinadil]

Just a note... the Target Not Attackable seems to be fixed... thankfully.

[Mrbloodworth]

Just a note... the Target Not Attackable seems to be fixed... thankfully.

I was on at 1pm last night (EST) and it was not. Entire swaths of dudes were unAttackable .

[Lakov_Sanite]

I feel as if somewhere at mythic on a blackboard is the slogan "The first enemy is the player"

Worried about dirty players hacking? Make every key press need server side validation, now you have a sluggish ui.

Mobs running around like idiots letting players kill them easily? Well first we have to make those mobs unattackable, so even if the pathing problem is minor we can't let players get a free hit on one of our millions of mobs they'll have to grind.

There's more but I need to get to work.

[cevik]

Mobs running around like idiots letting players kill them easily? Well first we have to make those mobs unattackable, so even if the pathing problem is minor we can't let players get a free hit on one of our millions of mobs they'll have to grind.

I keep wondering if the people who were telling me that they were sure the pathing problems would be fixed by release are happy that it was fixed by making the mobs unattackable.

[Nebu]

Mob pathing and targeting errors are almost infuriating at this point.  With the queues as they are, you can't even level on pvp scenarios anymore.  So the choices have been reduced to a) running boring quests, b) doing buggy PQ's, c) Getting slaughtered in open RvR by level 11's with crazy gear, or d) waiting in line to do RvR scenarios. 

If they could remove the scenario queues and reduce the buggy PQ's, it would be a lot better.  Until then, I'm going to whine. 

[Abelian75]

Worried about dirty players hacking? Make every key press need server side validation, now you have a sluggish ui.

Obviously you need server-side validation for abilities, if for no other reason than that the server is the one using the ability.  I don't even understand what you mean here.  I would have understood if you had said this back when they didn't display anything at all until you got a response back from the server, but if anything they're currently having the client display TOO much.  The reason you see abilities start and then suddenly stop isn't because WAR is doing an exceptional amount of server-side checking, it's because WAR plays ability animations immediately when you press the button, unlike WoW, for instance, which starts the GCD and some particle effects, but not the animation.

And I mean, they SHOULD be worried about hacking.  Otherwise things would rapidly suck.  If you're actually suggesting the client should be trusted to fire off as many abilities as they want whenever they want, well, that would make for an interesting game.

Don't get me wrong, I agree the combat system is wonky right now, I just think it's for exactly the opposite reason you described.  I think they went too far and are displaying too much client-side.  For instance the pets following alongside you perfectly... either they're giving the client authority over pet positioning when not in combat, or, more likely based on some bugs I've seen, the client is just lying about the position of the pet until you engage in combat.  I get the idea behind that, and I'm all for lying to the player in order to improve the experience and hide the client/server nature of the game, but they've gone really far with the concept in this game and I'm not sure it's worth it, because at some point the player picks up on it.

[Arrrgh]

Mob pathing and targeting errors are almost infuriating at this point.  With the queues as they are, you can't even level on pvp scenarios anymore.  So the choices have been reduced to a) running boring quests, b) doing buggy PQ's, c) Getting slaughtered in open RvR by level 11's with crazy gear, or d) waiting in line to do RvR scenarios. 

If they could remove the scenario queues and reduce the buggy PQ's, it would be a lot better.  Until then, I'm going to whine. 

Are you Qing in the human vs chaos area? I get back to back scenarios on Chrace/Order.

[Nebu]

Last night was in the dark elf area (I play a sorc).  Tonight I'm going to head over to the greenskin area to see if it's any better.  I think it's heavily server/realm dependent.  Also, I know it will improve at release do to there being more levels for people to spread out in... it just seems a bit rough with everyone in the same areas.

[Mrbloodworth]

Speaking of pets, yeah, thats jacked up too. If i send my Squig out, and it kills the target. It starts coming back (maybe   ), however if while its running back, i start back stepping... IT DOES TOO, even if its 30 feet away, so its no longer running back to my side, but back stepping at a slower rate. I basically have to stand still completely for it to come back to me at normal run speed, anything else it will match (movement wise).

Another annoyance, there is no way to call your pet back/off a target, other than sending it to attack something else. Also, if the pet finished on the main target( it seems to make this list of people/mobs that hit me) it will go and attack mobs that at some point in their life caused me pain...even if they are nowhere near me anymore (No, it is not set to aggressive). This is an issue, because of the lack of a way to call them off targets, and has gotten me killed many times in PvP.

Say what you want about AOC, but it didn't have this kind of issues... and i had 8 pets.

And WTF! <--- Is with the enormous shadow it (Squig) produces while moving? Does the bounding box (Presumably what shadows are keying off of, its definitely not the mesh, as it doesn't cast a stencil shadow, just a blob) change shape while moving (huge, amature bug)?

 I do like the Squigs however, and the ability's they have.

[Abelian75]

Speaking of pets, yeah, thats jacked up too. If i send my Squig out, and it kills the target. It starts coming back (maybe   ), however if while its running back, i start back stepping... IT DOES TOO, even if its 30 feet away, so its no longer running back to my side,

Yeah, that'd be one of the bugs I was thinking of.  I pretty strongly suspect that it actually is running back to you at full speed, but the client is trying to make things look more responsive and in the process fuck things up.  I could be wrong, but that's my suspicion.

It really does seem like a major mistake to have left stuff like this until the last minute.  I imagine some people thought that playing animations immediately when you press the button would obviously look better than WoW's way of doing it, and now are seeing that maybe that's lying a bit too much (for instance, syncing damage numbers with the weapon impact is much harder this way).  If there had been time for iteration, this stuff probably could have been tightened up a lot more.

It's not horrible or anything, imho, but it definitely could have been done better, and is a really interesting study on just exactly what "responsiveness" means.  In the most naive definition, WAR is more responsive than WoW, because animations play immediately.  But since WoW guarantees that an animation means that an attack played, while ALSO providing immediate feedback in other more subtle ways, I think it ends up actually feeling more responsive.

Edit:  It's also pretty ballsy the way they have the client simulate NPC positions so strongly.  Like when you get the "target out of range" error when the NPC is right next to you... they clearly just have the client stick the NPC right on you regardless of where it actually is (or maybe the client just isn't getting position updates).  To me, it makes sense to simulate an NPC running straight forward, but man, having it actually autofollow someone client-side?  Ballsy.  It's really hard to trust what you see currently.

[Mrbloodworth]

It (Squig movement matching mine Exactly) doesn't feel like a bug. It feels completely intended, or more of a "First iteration of code left in". Its to intentional to be a bug. It looks and feels more like they just use my movement data for its movement data when its not in combat cutting the transmissions to the server by one. Because it can be attacked, and then spring to life, while its doing this.

And MY GOD, can it please FACE the target, and not be 20m to the left facing away from it doing its leg drops?

[trias_e]

Last night was in the dark elf area (I play a sorc).  Tonight I'm going to head over to the greenskin area to see if it's any better.  I think it's heavily server/realm dependent.  Also, I know it will improve at release do to there being more levels for people to spread out in... it just seems a bit rough with everyone in the same areas.

The problem with scenarios is that destruction overpopulates order, thus has to wait a long time.  Order gets in very quick in any server I've played on.  FWIW, WoW had the exact same problem.  

[Nebu]

Good info.  Unfortunately, the group I play with seems reluctant to change sides.  I'm hoping that others will see the lines and change to Order for release. 

As for the rest, I want to love this game.  I really do.  It just seems to be stepping on its own feet.  Between the queues, the pathing, the stuck mobs, and the unresponsive UI... I just don't know if they can overcome it all.   I'm not even getting into the technical issues (ctd, black screen EVERY time I alt+tab, etc.).  If they can manage to fix some of the key issues by release, I think this game has some potential.  It's no WoW killer... but it does have potential to be self-sustaining.

[rattran]

Last night I got a new bug "This is not a valid target" for casting heals on myself. Even double checking that I had myself tagetted, if pooped up about 40 times in a few hours of play. Mostly on my 3.0sec heal and morale heal, which burned the morale anyway.

Not good for RvR.

That said, it's amazing just how much more fun the game is in Tier2, when you have more abilities/options for what to do.

[Mrbloodworth]

@ Nebu: Me too. I do love how they have integrated PvP into everything. There are quests that point you to PQ, that are also RvR encounters. It is brilliant. Many many thing in this game i really enjoy.

@ everyone else: But, for a game using old tech, rather precedented systems, i can't believe this game is in the state its in, really. Especially in comparison with the ration of shitt AOC got for its technical issues... The technologically difference between the two make the issues that WAR has, laughable. Seriously...texture loading? At least AOC was compiling shaders and about 4 layers of texture information with a draw distance that WAR cant seem to acheave even on max.

This isn't even a NEW combat system for the most part in WAR, yet even the basics are jacked up.

[cevik]

FWIW, WoW had the exact same problem.  

The key word here being "had".

WoW BGs had two major problems for awhile, one being the super long queues for the underpopulated side, and the other being premades steamrolling PUGs.  Now at the time I was in a premade on Horde side so I had no queue and got to steamroll PUGs, but even I could see the glaring problems with the PvP system way back when.  WoW fixed these issues, though perhaps not in the best possible way.

This appears to be one of those cases where the WAR guys decided not to learn from the mistakes of WoW, and instead forge their own path.  Now WAR is going to have the exact same issues, without the easy fix that WoW had (because the entire system is based on those BGs on a per server basis).  In WAR on the underpopulated side you are going to, as a PUGer, have to wait for an hour to get a BG, then get likely rolled in 2 minutes by a premade group using vent.  And trust me, as much as people want to bitch about equipment being the deciding factor in WoW pvp, my premade in mostly blues the WEEK we hit 60, while half the group still didn't even have epic mounts, could roll any pug we came across in any BG because we had coordination and, much more importantly, ventrillo.

To make matters worse, WoW at least had a robust PvE system for you to fall back on when you got tired of waiting an hour to be slaughtered in seconds in PvP, WAR won't even have that going for it.

EDIT:  The premade group I was in in WoW started as a 19 twink team, then decided to become a 29, then 39.. then we got tired of the queues at the lower levels and decided to go "real pvpz!11" and leveled up to 60.  So we had a ton of experience playing together but no gear the moment we hit 60.  Eventually 4 High Warlords came out of that group before we decided to retire (read:  had a drama explosion).

[cevik]

It feels completely intended, or more of a "First iteration of code left in".

I think it is the first iteration of code.

At the very beginning of the CE beta they put in the new combat code for players, but not for pets.  So when CE beta started I rolled a squig herder but the squigs were unusable during the that first week/weekend.  Mark addressed it in the "this is the shit we see that is wrong" post, but basically from what he said it sounded like the pets were still on the old combat system and it was making them completely borked (I had gotten into the habit of spamming the pet attack key until it would attack, then firing on the mob, it sometimes would take 30-40 seconds to get my pet to even attack).

I bet that this is the first attempt to "fix" those issues we were seeing back in the preview weekend. 

[Nebu]

WAR does seem to do a few things better, so some credit is due.  Worldly PvP seems a lot more worthwhile in WAR.  This doesn't require any wait in a line... you just run out of a warcamp and join the zerg.  Sure, with pugs and solos the lack of organization will mean less impact while in RvR.  You still have many of ways to be involved without feeling like a complete non-factor.  The pvp in WoW that I enjoyed the most seemed to be the pvp noone participated in.  People were so busy grindign honor in the arenas that they never spent much time in the world pvp.  I think WAR has addressed this and will better suit my pvp playstyle.   

[Abelian75]

At the very beginning of the CE beta they put in the new combat code for players, but not for pets.  So when CE beta started I rolled a squig herder but the squigs were unusable during the that first week/weekend.  Mark addressed it in the "this is the shit we see that is wrong" post, but basically from what he said it sounded like the pets were still on the old combat system and it was making them completely borked (I had gotten into the habit of spamming the pet attack key until it would attack, then firing on the mob, it sometimes would take 30-40 seconds to get my pet to even attack).

I bet that this is the first attempt to "fix" those issues we were seeing back in the preview weekend. 

All the "new" combat system is is playing the animations for your abilities instantly when you press the button, and starting the GCD client-side immediately.  It's mostly just presentation rather than functional changes (the slop timer is a definite functional change though).  I don't think any of that would apply to pets, as they auto-activate their abilities so there's no need to "fake" anything.  I think the pet problems are just plain bugs.

The "old" combat system worked fine, it was just unresponsive because you got no feedback at all (literally, none, not even a glowy button) until the server confirmed your action.  Pets just plain didn't/don't work sometimes, it's not just a "feel" issue.

(oh, and yeah, I didn't mean to imply that pets following your every move was a bug, just that the backpedling behavior you saw is probably a bug or an unintended consequence).

[cevik]

All the "new" combat system is is playing the animations for your abilities instantly when you press the button, and starting the GCD client-side immediately.  It's mostly just presentation rather than functional changes (the slop timer is a definite functional change though).  I don't think any of that would apply to pets, as they auto-activate their abilities so there's no need to "fake" anything.  I think the pet problems are just plain bugs.

The "old" combat system worked fine, it was just unresponsive because you got no feedback at all (literally, none, not even a glowy button) until the server confirmed your action.  Pets just plain didn't/don't work sometimes, it's not just a "feel" issue.

(oh, and yeah, I didn't mean to imply that pets following your every move was a bug, just that the backpedling behavior you saw is probably a bug or an unintended consequence).

I'll just quote Mark Jacobs:

(3) Pet Responsiveness – With similar issues to Monster Pathing and AI, this was not our finest hour.
- Need to transfer "combat responsiveness" fixes to pets - have pet move immediately on button press.
- “Oh no, Mr. Bill!” Pets suffer from same pathing and lack of response as general monsters. Pets hopping around like they were headed to Del Staters.

From this thread:  http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14230.0

[Abelian75]

I'll just quote Mark Jacobs:

oh, fair enough.  But regardless, those responsiveness changes they made don't actually make things happen any faster, it's just an illusion, which was why I brought that up.  I think the pet problems are just plain bugs, it's not just a matter of feel, they really are just not doing things sometimes.

Edit:  I just tested this out and it seems pretty clear that pets aren't animating on button-press.  In particular if I use coordinated strike my character animates immediately, but the pet only animates once the server response comes back.  So I'm not sure what the hell he was talking about there, unless maybe he just means the funky out-of-combat pet following thing.

[Abelian75]

Incidentally, it occurs to me that maybe the reason they implemented that weird NPC client-side autofollow behavior is because they just aren't able to get the NPCs actually responding fast enough to not feel terrible.  Which would suck.

[cevik]

WAR does seem to do a few things better, so some credit is due.  Worldly PvP seems a lot more worthwhile in WAR.  This doesn't require any wait in a line... you just run out of a warcamp and join the zerg.  Sure, with pugs and solos the lack of organization will mean less impact while in RvR.  You still have many of ways to be involved without feeling like a complete non-factor.  The pvp in WoW that I enjoyed the most seemed to be the pvp noone participated in.  People were so busy grindign honor in the arenas that they never spent much time in the world pvp.  I think WAR has addressed this and will better suit my pvp playstyle.   

Here is one major thing I see happening with world pvp that will eventually be the death of it:  Premades for Scenarios.

I don't understand what's going to stop premades from taking their scenario queues and ditching you on the battlefield.  In fact, it seems like this would happen often.  You'll be PUGing and doing a good job attacking some world objective, then suddenly you find out that the 10 best players that have been fighting alongside you and 20 others were in a premade group who's scenario queue just popped and you're getting steamrolled because 30% of your forces (and probably 50% of your coordination and skill) just vanished from the battlefield all at once.

Is there some mechanic I'm missing that will prevent this from being an issue?

[Mrbloodworth]

You get PvE XP for RvR/PvP, forced to out level and live the life of a chicken?

Or am i not understanding what your talking about?

Oh, yeah scenarios. NVM.

[cevik]

You get PvE XP for RvR/PvP, forced to out level and live the life of a chicken?

Or am i not understanding what your talking about?

If that was addressed to me, then no.

What I'm thinking will happen often is that while premades are waiting on their scenario queues they are going to World PvP (rather than just sit around and do nothing).  While they are out World PvPing there will be a group of 10+ guys helping you.  But the moment you click "yes" on your scenario queue, you get ported off of the battle field into the scenario instance.

When 1 guy disappears out of your 30 or so attacking/defending a target, no big deal.

But when 10 guys all pop out of the world pvp area all at once, it's going to impact the battle.  If you weren't in that premade you're going to find a huge turning point in the battle all at once when suddenly a big group of people just goes away and stops fighting for your side.

EDIT:  Oops, you beat me to it with an edit! :)