Does this game get better as you level?

[HRose]

XP nerf is noticeable.  If it was nerfed at levels 1-20, I'd be inclined to say that's ok.  But if WAR goes the way of exponential time leveling like other MMOs were higher levels mean longer grinds than lower levels, then it's a crappy move.  

I agree with this.

I don't know how much slower are the later levels but I'd be for a more flat growth. Slow down the first levels but keep levelling time pretty much the same all the way up.

[amiable]

FYI:  Mark Jacobs on levleing problems:


http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/108516385/p1/?79

"If it takes 2x to level, it's a bug. We'll have full reports on it in the morning but the changes were supposed to be 10-15% not 2x.

Mark "

[Khaldun]

Even 10-15% strikes me as a dumb idea: I thought they were just about right in the previous round. Again, supposedly--and you guys on Elder can't talk about it--they're ready for people to go all the way to the endgame, and have a sustainable game structure in place for them. Plus they've got a game that in theory ought to encourage people to create alts and try lots of different classes.

If you've got a fairly entertaining levelling treadmill (this is always relative: a levelling treadmill is not ever going to be crazy fun), maybe you can afford to slow it down slightly for the first run-through of most players. (e.g., World of Warcraft). Warhammer's selling point is not their PvE or even PvP levelling. It just isn't. So what's the point of adding grind at the last minute, as if it were a bit of salt for a bland soup? It makes the final results worse, not better, even from the standpoint of managing player levelling.

[trias_e]

I definitely agree that more grind is a bad idea for this game.  Alts will likely be a big deal since all tiers contribute to the WAR effort.  If the make it harder to level, they should at least allow deleveling into earlier tiers.  I could make that tradeoff, as it would give me much more to do at any time.

[amiable]

Even 10-15% strikes me as a dumb idea: I thought they were just about right in the previous round. Again, supposedly--and you guys on Elder can't talk about it--they're ready for people to go all the way to the endgame, and have a sustainable game structure in place for them. Plus they've got a game that in theory ought to encourage people to create alts and try lots of different classes.

If you've got a fairly entertaining levelling treadmill (this is always relative: a levelling treadmill is not ever going to be crazy fun), maybe you can afford to slow it down slightly for the first run-through of most players. (e.g., World of Warcraft). Warhammer's selling point is not their PvE or even PvP levelling. It just isn't. So what's the point of adding grind at the last minute, as if it were a bit of salt for a bland soup? It makes the final results worse, not better, even from the standpoint of managing player levelling.

Well I for one found that I leveled out of Tier 1 WAYYY before I got to experience all the content I wanted.  A few hours of PvP and I was  literally out of the Tier.  As long as later Tiers son't become insufferably long I could see slowing down Tier 1 progression.  (Although to be honest, I love getting into Tier 2 because that is your first experience with Castle Sieges, which are crazy fun).

[EWSpider]

My biggest problem isn't necessarily that it takes longer to level now.  I'm still ok with the speed of leveling (it's still reasonably fast).  My biggest gripe is that now that you level slower, you end up constantly capped on Renown (you can't have a higher Renown Rank than your current level).  As an example from last night, I started out the night at level 9 and Renown Rank 9.  Within an hour or so I had filled up my Renown so that I was 1 Renown Point from Renown Rank 10.  At this point I became capped and could no longer gain Renown and I was barely even half way to level 10.  I RvR'd for about 2 more hours at the cap and missed out on gaining at least 3-4k Renown.  By the end of the night I was maybe 3/4ths of the way to level 10.  I can deal with the slower leveling, but not being able to gain Renown and having my Renown Rank capped is extremely frustrating.

[Nebu]

I can deal with the slower leveling, but not being able to gain Renown and having my Renown Rank capped is extremely frustrating.

Try to understand this from a mechanics viewpoint.  In a few months, players will want to stay in the lower tiers for fun.  You don't want your players able to get to high levels of renown in lower level tiers.  Not only does it make the disparity in the lower tiers worse, it provides a way to be even that much more powerful when heading to the next tier.  You really need a renown cap on each tier for the mechanics to shake out correctly. 

[cevik]

Try to understand this from a mechanics viewpoint.  In a few months, players will want to stay in the lower tiers for fun.  You don't want your players able to get to high levels of renown in lower level tiers.  Not only does it make the disparity in the lower tiers worse, it provides a way to be even that much more powerful when heading to the next tier.  You really need a renown cap on each tier for the mechanics to shake out correctly. 

Is there a way to turn of XP gain?  If not, then how are people going to be able to stay in a lower tier?

[EWSpider]

I can deal with the slower leveling, but not being able to gain Renown and having my Renown Rank capped is extremely frustrating.

Try to understand this from a mechanics viewpoint.  In a few months, players will want to stay in the lower tiers for fun.  You don't want your players able to get to high levels of renown in lower level tiers.  Not only does it make the disparity in the lower tiers worse, it provides a way to be even that much more powerful when heading to the next tier.  You really need a renown cap on each tier for the mechanics to shake out correctly. 

I guess I wasn't really clear.  My problem isn't so much with the cap itself, it's the fact that I reach the cap so fast.  The Renown cap has always been there and I've never had a problem with it previously.  It has only now become a problem because it takes longer to level.

[Nebu]

Is there a way to turn of XP gain?  If not, then how are people going to be able to stay in a lower tier?

In DaoC you could /xpoff or /rpoff.  I'm not sure if there exists an equivalent in WAR.  I just assumed there was.  Assuming has always been my downfall. 

[kildorn]

Is there a way to turn of XP gain?  If not, then how are people going to be able to stay in a lower tier?

In DaoC you could /xpoff or /rpoff.  I'm not sure if there exists an equivalent in WAR.  I just assumed there was.  Assuming has always been my downfall. 

I have seen no such thing yet. DAOC's versions took a long while to show up.

[slog]

Kind of funny that they are making WAR more grindy as WoW is making things less grindy.  Seems to me a like a last minute panic move.  Not a smart one either.

Is the NDA still up for the end game stuff? 

[Slayerik]

I still odn't understand why MMO devs dont add an ability that speeds up XP gain after you have maxed out a character. Some kind of flag on the account ... Order 40% XP bonus

Would get more people rolling alts and playing longer, I would guess.

[Mrbloodworth]

Try to understand this from a mechanics viewpoint.  In a few months, players will want to stay in the lower tiers for fun.  You don't want your players able to get to high levels of renown in lower level tiers.  Not only does it make the disparity in the lower tiers worse, it provides a way to be even that much more powerful when heading to the next tier.  You really need a renown cap on each tier for the mechanics to shake out correctly. 

Is there a way to turn of XP gain?  If not, then how are people going to be able to stay in a lower tier?

I do not think they want twinks in this game, hence no way to stay level 11, as you gain XP in PvP as well. IMO, this is a good thing. Twinks ruin "Battle grounds" for new players.

[Falconeer]

I still odn't understand why MMO devs dont add an ability that speeds up XP gain after you have maxed out a character. Some kind of flag on the account ... Order 40% XP bonus

Would get more people rolling alts and playing longer, I would guess.

Great idea. A la Disgaea. If you reincarnate your char (re-roll) the next cycle you gain XP much faster. That is GOOD STUFF.

[Nebu]

I do not think they want twinks in this game, hence no way to stay level 11, as you gain XP in PvP as well. IMO, this is a good thing. Twinks ruin "Battle grounds" for new players.

Eventually, your game contains an overwhelming percentage of established players looking for variety of gameplay choices.  If this isn't available at release, you can bet it will be added when retention starts to falter.

[Nebu]

Great idea. A la Disgaea. If you reincarnate your char (re-roll) the next cycle you gain XP much faster. That is GOOD STUFF.

See:  Arguments for and against the /level command.

These systems alienate new players and turn newbie areas into ghost towns.  I'm all for less grinding personally... not everyone agrees with me.

[Mrbloodworth]

Flaw, not a trait.

[schild]

Hm. I wonder if the 10% increase is in response to tactics/guild tactics making exp gain too fast. I can't imagine anyone uses any tactics other than exp/rek increase.

[Slayerik]

Great idea. A la Disgaea. If you reincarnate your char (re-roll) the next cycle you gain XP much faster. That is GOOD STUFF.

See:  Arguments for and against the /level command.

These systems alienate new players and turn newbie areas into ghost towns.  I'm all for less grinding personally... not everyone agrees with me.

The opposite could be argued. The XP bonus would make it a less daunting task to reroll, so you would have more people in the newbie towns...though they would be there a less total time than a real noob. Still long enough to do instances/public quests/PVP with these noobs.

[Lakov_Sanite]

People keep saying the lower level rvr affects the whole game, in what way? afaik the rvr objectives only affect the zone they are in.

[trias_e]

nope, all the tiers influence the final tier which is the endgame.

[Lakov_Sanite]

nope, all the tiers influence the final tier which is the endgame.

How?

[Evildrider]

It's a point system.  Every time you do a scenario the winner gets points added to an overall Victory pool.  Same with the RvR objectives.

[Lakov_Sanite]

But where do those points go? is there a big world tracker and first one to 5billion points wins? what benefits/downsides do low level zones and scenario's actually have to the max level game?

[Draegan]

But where do those points go? is there a big world tracker and first one to 5billion points wins? what benefits/downsides do low level zones and scenario's actually have to the max level game?

Campaign Overview

The objective of a Campaign is to take over the zones and capital city of the opposite realm.

Between the opposing zones in each tier, there is a unique battlefront. Initially, the battlefront divides the tier evenly between the two realms, but as victory points are gained by each side through RvR gameplay, the battlefront shifts depending on who is winning the most victory points. Earn enough victory points, and your realm will gain control of that battlefront. A percentage of victory points from tier 1 spill over into tier 2. Likewise, a percentage of victory points from tier 2 spill over into tier 3, and from tier 3 into tier 4, so your victory points gained in lower tiers increase your points in upper tiers. Even low level players in tier 1 will ultimately be contributing to the overall war effort.

Tier 4 is where each realm will struggle for the ultimate prize – capturing the capital city of an opposing army. Tier 4 is the final battlefront. To open a capital city to attack you will first have to capture the neutral zone in the center. Once you have enough victory points to control that zone, its scenarios will lock down, and scenarios in your enemy’s tier 4 zone will open up, allowing your realm to attack that zone. If your enemies then gain victories of their own they can push the front back to the neutral zone and potentially open up your own tier 4 zone to attack. This makes tier 4 a constant struggle for the battlefront.

If you gain enough victory points to control the enemy’s tier 4 zone, the enemy capital city itself will become open to attack, opening up a new range of scenarios inside that city's zone, detailing the attacks on the stronghold. If that attack is successful then the controlling realm will be able to (temporarily) conquer and ransack most of the enemy capital. Burning, looting and special NPC encounters are sure to follow. You will not be able to hold onto your enemy city indefinitely. Systems will be in place that will eventually wrest control of the city back to the rightful owners. When this happens, the campaign will begin again.

Each racial paring has a different campaign going on at the same time, and do not effect each other.

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Campaign

[Soukyan]

So someone said, "Nerf it by 15 percent."

The programmer heard", Nerf it by 50 percent."

Not surprising. 

But yes, Mythic always was big on the slow grind, at least until the /level command was put in. I'm with Nebu in that I prefer a fast level curve and mechanics to speed up repeat play with alternate characters.

[Ingmar]

That sounds mostly right, but when they took out the non-Empire/Chaos racial capitals, I believe they added a mechanism where the T4 zones for dwarf/greenskin and elf/elf affect the capital city vulnerability in empire/chaos.

[Lakov_Sanite]

ok so it's a trickle up theory so whatever you do in lower tiers will have an effect but probably a minimal one(which is good)

I'm curious though about the mention of 'scenario's' in capturing an enemy city. It leads me to believe all the actual pvp fighting is going to be done in instanced versions of the city and once the city is 'captured' enemy players will be able to zone in and pve against the npcs inside as if it were a dungeon.

[trias_e]

Overview of city stuff is here:  http://www.warhammeronline.com/podcast/index.php

There's scenarios, public quests, and open RvR battlefield objectives if I am understanding correctly.  The open RvR in the city is going to be quite the zergfest/server crashing experience I'd imagine.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Thanks that helped a lot, why don't we have a useful links thread with this at like, the top page?

I still have a lot of reservations though, mostly about the sheer numbers needed to pull something like a castle siege off not to mention midnight ambushes or lack of interest by many. So We'll wait and see.

[slog]

So, doing some PvP.  I'm just getting raped in sceniarios by 10s and 11s.  Mythic totally missed the newbie experience.  I can see a lot of people just giving up on this game by level 10.

Edit:  was just laughing as I looked at my combat log.  I do like 50 to 100 damage, and I'm getting hit for 400+.

[trias_e]

They definitely need to bolster people to the highest level of the tier...the loot advantage (and having more spells/tactics/whatever) is easily enough for the higher level players.  Also, consider putting a ton of awesome PQs in the lower part of the tier with nice to loot to help out the lower levels.  It's still never going to be good.  Joining a scenario before level 7 definitely ain't fun, and I can imagine it's just as bad at level 12 against level 20s.

[Evildrider]

I've seen tons of PQ quests.. I ended up farming one over and over to then find like 4 more that I missed.

[Fraeg]

They definitely need to bolster people to the highest level of the tier...the loot advantage (and having more spells/tactics/whatever) is easily enough for the higher level players.  Also, consider putting a ton of awesome PQs in the lower part of the tier with nice to loot to help out the lower levels.  It's still never going to be good.  Joining a scenario before level 7 definitely ain't fun, and I can imagine it's just as bad at level 12 against level 20s.

i had to use tweezers to get the splinters out of my sphincter last night after meeting a lvl 18 black orc on my lvl 12 witch hunter. However, that was the only encounter that really stuck out in my mind as a case of "i don't have a fucking chance in hell here"  Not a big fan of the changes they made to the stonetalon scenario.


perhaps i have just been brainwashed into accepting that anyone who has a few lvls on me has a good chance of kicking my ass. Regardless, it still seems in my mind to be better than what happened in WoW bgs to you if you weren't max lvl for the bracket.