Star Trek Online: Here We Go Again!

[Ratman_tf]

Didn't we already decide that this annoucement was probably magical marketing designed to make 1 million forum accounts look like 1 million boxes sold?

It does smell like bullshit. 1 million accounts on opening day, and they couldn't even keep the beta servers up consistently? Hrmmm....

[Kovacs]

Someone give me a nudge when this thing bottoms into the $20 range.

Bottoms at $20?  I'd say that's pretty optimistic. $15.99 CO/STO boxed set for Christmas?

[Malakili]

Someone give me a nudge when this thing bottoms into the $20 range.

Bottoms at $20?  I'd say that's pretty optimistic. $15.99 CO/STO boxed set for Christmas?

I'm actually waiting for one or two more shoved out the door Cryptic MMOs so I can get the Cryptic station pass and get 4 shallow MMOs that together might actually provide enough content to be keep me occupied.

[Modern Angel]

I know that no one here cares but; I know several people who are first time MMO players (though not new to computer gaming) and picked this up simply because of the Star Trek license.

They are having a blast and every single gripe listed on the last three pages of this thread is completely meaningless to them.

You guys are the lunatic fringe.

Ding ding ding! My good friend Steve bought the game. It's his first MMO. He can't get enough.

[Shatter]

I know that no one here cares but; I know several people who are first time MMO players (though not new to computer gaming) and picked this up simply because of the Star Trek license.

They are having a blast and every single gripe listed on the last three pages of this thread is completely meaningless to them.

You guys are the lunatic fringe.

Ding ding ding! My good friend Steve bought the game. It's his first MMO. He can't get enough.

Newbs

[Rishathra]

I did laugh when I ran into the USS Evil Lincoln though.

My favorite so far is the USS Priceline Negotiator.

[Surlyboi]

Even hardcore gamers will take 40 hours to complete many quality single player games.  If they want to at least justify the box cost, let alone a sub fee, they should provide that much at the very least.

According to Xfire, I've played STO for 16 hours since Saturday. I'm only Lieutenant 8 and I'm still flying a newbie ship. A guess says it will be about another 60 hours and four weeks before I get to Admiral 5.

I think my box cost is covered, assuming I stick with the game to the level cap.

This. I've been playing since headstart and I just dinged lt. commander 7 last night and honestly, I feel like i've been playing it too much. So no, I won't "stop this shit." I say again, if you're a top Admiral already, you either exploited your way there or you need to get a fucking life. I'm not making excuses for Cryptic. Fuck them too for not expecting some lifeless min/maxer to plow through all their shit in five days, but the bigger fucktard award goes to the powergamers.

[01101010]

This. I've been playing since headstart and I just dinged lt. commander 7 last night and honestly, I feel like i've been playing it too much. So no, I won't "stop this shit." I say again, if you're a top Admiral already, you either exploited your way there or you need to get a fucking life. I'm not making excuses for Cryptic. Fuck them too for not expecting some lifeless min/maxer to plow through all their shit in five days, but the bigger fucktard award goes to the powergamers.

Whoa, slow down. Gamers come in all flavors which I would hope would run the spectrum on these forums. There is too much precedent set with "running to be the first to cap" in most every game. That is not going to change, there will always be teams or single people gunning to be the first on the server to hit cap. Lord knows I tried in Planetside only to come up short, but then again, I was in grad school at the time and had the entire summer off so I chose to do that given my time allowances. STO obviously speaks to a more casual style of play at a leisurely pace in order to give Cryptic more time to implement the latter stages of the game. I don't see the problem, aside from STO not being equipped for the "first to cap" people. Granted, the guy comes off a little bit chicken little in discussing the lack of level cap development in the game CURRENTLY - That's all I got from his post. The thing is, STO released without accounting for these types of gamers (or maybe  Cryptic released a game betting on the majority of players not to catass to cap and in turn to lose out on the minority of those that do, in order to focus in on the casual-types), so his post is a red flag to "those" players and not really a concern for the hour-a-night crowd.

Now you can spin this off to the philosophy of MMOs and what's complete and not, and you can project how games have changed and how studios handle releases and patching... but I doubt that guy even cares to go down that road.

[Khaldun]

It's not that I have any problem with min-max idiots getting their just desserts when they rip through content. What I worry about more--especially in Cryptic's case, given a track record of making the same mistake over and over again--is when developers stupidly panic because the hardcores once again broke some in-house predictive model about levelling speed resulting in a) putting very poorly tested content patches outs and b) adjusting the levelling in a way that has bad effects on ordinary, average players.

It took Blizzard years to understand that their money wasn't coming from poopsockers, and they're smarter about these issues than the rest of the industry. Most of the time, when devs discover that their game doesn't work for poopsockers, they panic and make the game not work for average players.

[ghost]

The thing is, STO released without accounting for these types of gamers (or maybe  Cryptic released a game betting on the majority of players not to catass to cap and in turn to lose out on the minority of those that do, in order to focus in on the casual-types), so his post is a red flag to "those" players and not really a concern for the hour-a-night crowd.

Again, do you need to account for those types of players?  Of course they tend to be the most vocal and, as said above, the fringe element. 

[Malakili]

The thing is, STO released without accounting for these types of gamers (or maybe  Cryptic released a game betting on the majority of players not to catass to cap and in turn to lose out on the minority of those that do, in order to focus in on the casual-types), so his post is a red flag to "those" players and not really a concern for the hour-a-night crowd.

Again, do you need to account for those types of players?  Of course they tend to be the most vocal and, as said above, the fringe element. 

Well, like you said, they are the most vocal.  The thread on the STO forums the guy made is still on the front page and has twice as many replies as any other thread I see. (Just took a quick look).  So, its at the very least throwing up red flags within the community.  Of course, as always, we have to account for the fact that most people don't even bother reading the forums or posting on the forums, and that huge amounts of players just don't care.  But still, the "hardcore" in any game definitely serves the purpose of giving a lot of other players something to shoot for/look up to.  That might be lame, but why do you think, for instance, WoW raiders are always looking for the next raiding guild up, the next slightly better group to play with, etc.  Thats really common.  So I think while these sorts of people are definitely a huge minority, they also play disproportionately large role in the community.

And regardless of all that, there are a lot of people who ARE going to get up to admiral in their first month, and when there is nothing, or maybe that one group content thing they mentioned to do, people aren't going to stick around.  Same thing happened with Champions. I expect a lot of people to drop after the first month as a result of lack of end game content, and it frankly doesn't matter if someone gets to the end game in 5 days or 25 days, they aren't going to magically patch in an entire end game of content in a month.

[taolurker]

they aren't going to magically patch in an entire end game of content in a month.

Did you see the page they have up describing their plans for content? It was posted by someone earlier in this thread, but I'll include it again so you can read all the content that's supposed to be in the works already. link

They do have some really ambitious plans about "new" content, although I am higly concerned they are basically going to release untested content patches to live servers.

I know it's beyond their realm of thinking, but Cryptic really needs to learn MMO 101, which includes a test server, multiple paths to avoid repeating content and also being prepared for players to expose every weakness their game has.

BTW Anyone still playing, they did not patch a fix for the /maxfps issue I mentioned a few pages back, so unless you want this game potentially burning out your video card, do yourself a solid and type /maxfps 60 (or any reasonable number for your config) so your GPU doesn't fry.

[Modern Angel]

For the maxfps thing, go to Options on the Launcher; it's up top. There's a space for setting up a command line. Type: -maxfps # and it will stick without having to type it in each time.

[Kageru]

They also need to learn you don't start thinking about your first iteration of end-game content 1.5 months after release. That stuff needs refinement iterations when you are not screwing over players on a live game. I mean it doesn't matter if they don't have much end-game content as long as they've got something to prove it works.

And sure, this guy is at the extreme edge of the levelling bell curve. But given the depth of this game the number of people at max going "what now?" will be growing rapidly in the near future.

[ghost]

I think the next big MMO should start out with the players starting at "end game".  Then you'll just be getting levels and such after you've already maxed your character but from the beginning.  It will be magical. 

I have been taking my sweet time with LOTRO, some because I don't have a choice and some because I want to try to enjoy it.  The only time I ever don't like the slowish pace is when things get grindy (which deeds are definitely grindy). 

[Nebu]

I think the next big MMO should start out with the players starting at "end game".  Then you'll just be getting levels and such after you've already maxed your character but from the beginning.  It will be magical. 

WoW has shown that there is almost no reason to have levels beyond teaching people how to learn their class mechanics.  Most MMO gamers will spend a good majority of their playtime at max level.  I'd imagine that newer MMOs would toss out levels and just keep the gear/faction grind.  Seems the logical progression of the genre. 

[Rendakor]

I think the next big MMO should start out with the players starting at "end game".  Then you'll just be getting levels and such after you've already maxed your character but from the beginning.  It will be magical. 

I have been taking my sweet time with LOTRO, some because I don't have a choice and some because I want to try to enjoy it.  The only time I ever don't like the slowish pace is when things get grindy (which deeds are definitely grindy). 

What happens when it still launches with no endgame content? 

[Malakili]

I think the next big MMO should start out with the players starting at "end game".  Then you'll just be getting levels and such after you've already maxed your character but from the beginning.  It will be magical. 

I have been taking my sweet time with LOTRO, some because I don't have a choice and some because I want to try to enjoy it.  The only time I ever don't like the slowish pace is when things get grindy (which deeds are definitely grindy). 

What happens when it still launches with no endgame content? 

Then the MMO genre will have reached its pinnacle.

[Stormwaltz]

I think the next big MMO should start out with the players starting at "end game".  Then you'll just be getting levels and such after you've already maxed your character but from the beginning.  It will be magical. 

What happens when it still launches with no endgame content? 

Then the MMO genre will have reached its pinnacle.

John Cage's 3:33 Online

[Ghambit]

If any game(s) needed endgame content it's pretty much all of Cryptic's games.  Their lvl grinds are shallow, this much we know...  so all we have left to "play for" is pretty much what comes at the end.  This is in deference to games like WoW, LotRO, AoC, Eve, etc. where there's more of a compelling journey along the way.

It's almost like Cryptic knows this and so they shoddily design their game on purpose because "hey, it's just a training ground for endgame."  Then endgame comes along and that's shoddy as well.   wtf?

[Soln]

makes you wonder then -- WTF put in levels then?  Just a stalling (business retention) tactic.  Why not make everyone the same power and allow them to customize minor stuff and rev the whole game every few weeks.  Which most MMO's do anyways. 

[Nebu]

makes you wonder then -- WTF put in levels then?  Just a stalling (business retention) tactic.  Why not make everyone the same power and allow them to customize minor stuff and rev the whole game every few weeks.  Which most MMO's do anyways. 

Pretty much what I was getting at in my earlier post.  The only purpose I see for levels anymore are as an initiation to the game mechanics and a way to meet people.  I think a Tortage-like experience to get to cap would be sufficient for any MMO.  Follow that up with a lengthy faction/gear/achievement grind and you win. 

[Ingmar]

I think the next big MMO should start out with the players starting at "end game".  Then you'll just be getting levels and such after you've already maxed your character but from the beginning.  It will be magical. 

What happens when it still launches with no endgame content? 

Then the MMO genre will have reached its pinnacle.

John Cage's 3:33 Online

4'33".  OMG I used my music degree today.

[tmp]

makes you wonder then -- WTF put in levels then?

Well it's a great way to make 90% of content in your game obsolete

Seriously though people seem to still enjoy their ding-grats and numbers getting bigger. They can live without it (as long as there's some other numbers they can see get bigger or anything at all) but the whole "endgame" nonsense is there in first place as substitute for the levels mechanics rather than full replacement. I'd also guess the time investment put in getting through these levels is one of factors that make people stick with repetitive activities at the cap after the somewhat-changing content is exhausted.

[01101010]

SSC: I get a little giddy everytime I pull the STO home page up and see the servers are down. And I have been giddy a lot lately.   

[Venkman]

Ding gratz leveling works fine, as long as a) combat is fine, b) the zones are interesting; and, c) (though optional) the quests are interesting. STO has two of them and only 1/2 of the third, since I only enjoyed the space type of combat.

[ghost]

Well, that's really the fucking point though:  most "end-game" is nothing more than leveling anyway.  "End-game" is designed to keep you occupied doing things to better your toon, which is the same thing as leveling.  It really makes no fucking difference if it is "ding" or "Purplezzz".  It's all the same thing.

[Brolan]

For those playing:  If you can't complete the objectives of the "Patrol Orion sector" mission, it may be because you are below Lt. 4 rank.  You must be Lt. 4 rank or higher to get credit.

[tmp]

Well, that's really the fucking point though:  most "end-game" is nothing more than leveling anyway.  "End-game" is designed to keep you occupied doing things to better your toon, which is the same thing as leveling.  It really makes no fucking difference if it is "ding" or "Purplezzz".  It's all the same thing.

Yeah but that's the --otherwise the same-- leveling minus the level ding-grats. I.e. you have the purples + levels and then just the purples. In other words, with the levels you have one extra field the players can advance and feel good about when they do. Until the levels get exhausted at least.

[UnSub]

The thing is, STO released without accounting for these types of gamers (or maybe  Cryptic released a game betting on the majority of players not to catass to cap and in turn to lose out on the minority of those that do, in order to focus in on the casual-types), so his post is a red flag to "those" players and not really a concern for the hour-a-night crowd.

Again, do you need to account for those types of players?  Of course they tend to be the most vocal and, as said above, the fringe element. 

The other thing they do is hit the aspirational nerve in a lot of players - "Oh, maybe I won't bother getting up to Admiral then and quit now because I don't want to get to a point where I have nothing to do". Even if they never experience it, players want to know that there is something else for them to do.

[Margalis]

The thing is, STO released without accounting for these types of gamers

Accounting for those players is impossible and stupid.

There are going to be a few outliers who burn through content at a rate 10x or more that of any normal person. If you give that person enough content to keep them occupied then 90% of your content is wasted on 90% of the players - not a great way to spend money.

What are they supposed to do? Ship with a raid that you have to run 1000 times to get great items? All that does is fuck over everyone else. And if they keep catering to that guy by releasing more and more content or adding more and more grinding then they're continually moving the goalposts further out of reach of most customers.

[caladein]

Accounting for them doesn't mean putting up content as fast as they can devour it, that's crazy talk.

It does mean not having your "end game" contain less content than the post-game save in a Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2 though.

[Venkman]

Those are related. Not having it done means they care less about the statistical minority of people who've already hit the endgame than the rest of the (much larger) group of people who are at risk of leaving already because so many other things were allowed to launch incomplete or outright broken.

Of course, they may also have no idea what to do for the endgame either

[01101010]

Those are related. Not having it done means they care less about the statistical minority of people who've already hit the endgame than the rest of the (much larger) group of people who are at risk of leaving already because so many other things were allowed to launch incomplete or outright broken.

Of course, they may also have no idea what to do for the endgame either

That would be telling...especially with an IP so willing to use time like a dollar whore.

[Venkman]

Ya know, this is probably the one IP that could have a level cap that forces you to restart at level 1 again.

"Now you will you grow again Timeline <whatever it was>+1"