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Author Topic: Spider-Man is going to be a fucking goddamned retard. (SPOILERS)  (Read 40069 times)
Kitsune
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on: December 03, 2007, 07:42:05 PM

(Like I said, spoilers.)

Joe Quesada is about to permanently fuck Peter Parker.  He's been interviewed in the past as saying that he doesn't like the fact that Peter got hitched.

Now, by coincidence, in the 'One More Day' story, Mephisto has appeared and is offering to save Aunt May's ancient life in exchange for... Peter and MJ's love.  He will wave his magical 'I am Satan' wand and *poof* retcon out the marriage.

Before offering this deal to Peter, however, Mephisto showed him visions of alternate versions of himself, how he would have turned out had he taken different paths.  And because Mephisto is a super-genius at convincing people to take his offers, both of the visions took great pains to mention how miserable their lives were without 'that one special girl'.  Add in a little girl appearing who was obviously his and MJ's daughter who said she'd never be born and called him an idiot, and you pretty much wind up with a giant billboard spelling, 'DON'T TAKE THE DEAL, YOU FUCKING MORON' in flashing lights.

And yet, Peter's gonna take the deal, because fucking Quesada doesn't like him being married.  Thanks to ol' Joe, Peter and MJ will decide that the entirety of their lives and family are not worth buying Aunt May another five years before she keels over from natural causes anyways.

God damned Marvel.
Margalis
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Reply #1 on: December 03, 2007, 07:47:52 PM

She's not dead?

Marrying Spider-Man was a bad idea but at some point you have to accept and move on. The number 1 problem comics have is that new writers and editors don't respect the past and just want to change things in ways that suit them personally, regardless of what that does to the character and franchise.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
stray
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Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 07:52:58 PM

Never liked the idea of him being married either. But you know what's worse?

Having him reveal his identity to the world.


Uh yeah, good job! No more Spider-Man!
Velorath
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Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 11:04:51 PM

Can't say I really care one way or the other about the actual marriage (I think the bigger problem was having Mary Jane become an actress/supermodel) when it comes down to it.  Mephisto doesn't really work in a Spider-man story though.  The writers thought about using him as a potential end to the clone saga, and came to the conclusion back then that it just doesn't work in a Spidey book. 

I have to imagine though, that Quesada is using his feelings about the marriage as misdirection for where the story is really going though.  It wouldn't make any sense for Peter to strike a deal with Mephisto, especially with fans knowing that the out of character action would be due to an editorial decision to erase the marriage.  My admittedly optimistic prediction here is that they have something entirely different planned.
Ironwood
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Reply #4 on: December 04, 2007, 03:47:56 AM

Retarded.

Though I agree that the reveal was more retarded.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tebonas
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Reply #5 on: December 04, 2007, 04:28:52 AM

The current crop of comic writers at Marvel seem to me like retarded fanboi monkeys that now have the power to fullfill their own inane fantasies at the cost of the franchise. Really, it all reads like bad fanfic.
stu
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Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 07:27:08 AM

The biggest problem with Spider-Man is the fact that people still read it.

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Jackpot!
HaemishM
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Reply #7 on: December 04, 2007, 08:00:44 AM

Mephisto? And a magic retcon wand?

Sounds like perfect Quesada to me. It would make more sense for him to retcon away the idiotic public revealtion of Spider-Man's identity, but I guess Spider-Man being married and happy in a relationship is just too hard to write.

Fucking retarded.

Velorath
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Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 04:33:50 PM

JMS recently had this to say about One More Day:

Quote
Speak of the devil and he shall appear....

For whatever it's worth, the situation is not as clear cut as one
might hope. The reality of any writer workingfor any company, DC or
Marvel or Image, is that when you're handed a franchise character,
you're basically entrusted with something that the company owns, and
the company has final say in what happens to that character, because
as a writer, you're only there for a certain amount of time and then
the next guy has to come in. Spider-Man belongs to Marvel, not to me,
and at the end of the day, however much I may disagree with things,
and however much I may make it very CLEAR to all parties that I
disagree, I have to honor their position.

In the Gwen storyline, yes, I wanted it to be Peter's kids, Joe over-
rode that, which is his right as EIC. I got the flack for that
decision, but them's the breaks.

In the current storyline, there's a lot that I don't agree with, and I
made this very clear to everybody within shouting distance at Marvel,
especially Joe. I'll be honest: there was a point where I made the
decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last
two issues of the OMD arc. Eventually Joe talked me out of that
decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe
or Marvel, and I have a lot of respect for both of those. As an
executive producer as well as a writer, I've sometimes had to insist
that my writers make changes that they did not want to make, often
loudly so. They were sure I was wrong. Mostly I was right.
Sometimes I was wrong. But whoever sits in the editor's chair, or the
executive producer's chair, wears the pointy hat of authority, and as
Dave Sim once noted, you can't argue with a pointy hat.

So at the end of the day, all one can do is try to do the best one can
with the notes one is given, and try to execute them in a professional
way...because who knows, the other guy may be right. The only thing I
*can* tell you, with absolute certainty, is that what Joe does with
Spidey and all the rest of the Marvel characters, he does out of a
genuine love of the character. He's not looking to sabotage anything,
he's not looking to piss off the fans, he genuinely believes in the
rightness of his views not out of a sense of "I'm the boss" but
because he loves these characters and the Marvel universe.

And right or wrong, you have to respect that.
Margalis
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Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 05:11:23 PM

It's pretty damning that he would have to write that at all.

I've always said that *editors* are the problem. Writers come and go, the editors are the people who are supposed to have the franchise view in mind. They are the ones who are supposed to ensure consistency in timelines, across titles and across characterizations.

The one thing that surprises me is I assumed the problem was editors being too permissive, not that they were *forcing* their writers to do stupid shit.

Edit: Joe Q seems like the perfect example of the Peter Principle in action.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 05:14:17 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Velorath
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Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 08:09:30 PM

The one thing that surprises me is I assumed the problem was editors being too permissive, not that they were *forcing* their writers to do stupid shit.

The only thing surprising about that is how quickly they fell back into some of the worst habits they had in the '90s.  Editiorial driven events like this made for some of the worst stories Marvel put out last decade (including the Clone Saga).
stu
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Reply #11 on: December 04, 2007, 10:21:05 PM

Idiot editors and corporate pressure are the reasons Kelly and Seagle walked off X-Men. Marvel has a reputation for frustrating talent in the most unprofessional manners.

Dear Diary,
Jackpot!
stu
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Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 10:25:58 PM

I think 99% of this is due to the movies being so popular. When Quesada first took over as EIC, he was doing was pretty wild things that Marvel had never tried before. Then the movies hit and their line became a bit of vanilla since they weren't in that rebuilding phase anymore.

Dear Diary,
Jackpot!
Velorath
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Reply #13 on: December 04, 2007, 10:36:15 PM

I think 99% of this is due to the movies being so popular. When Quesada first took over as EIC, he was doing was pretty wild things that Marvel had never tried before. Then the movies hit and their line became a bit of vanilla since they weren't in that rebuilding phase anymore.

I think it's just that Quesada has had a lot of success with what he's done at Marvel and at times that success can keep him from realizing when he's making a bad decision.  It also doesn't help that any controversial story drives sales through the roof regardless of any sort of outcry on the Internet.  Besides that, Quesada has mentioned a number of times in the past that he runs most of this stuff by Stan Lee first, and Stan generally approves of it.
HaemishM
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Reply #14 on: December 05, 2007, 07:31:11 AM

JMS writing that tells me the problem is Big Joe, which is something I've thought for quite a while (though Bendis has to take his share of the blame as well). Most of the best titles at Marvel have turned to utter shit. Joe has gotten on the cycle of event comics every quarter and you can only do so many event type things before readers are just worn out. Countdown and all its shitty miniseries have worn me down to a nub on DC. Marvel has staggered from event to event since Disassembled and none of them have really had any payoff worth a shit, or that maintains consistency. The line is an editorial mess, and I'm sure Jim Shooter would fire a fuckload of people, sexually harrass some office workers and then fix everything narratively.

JMS hates the story, hates the payoff, and is going to write a really lame story because he is not emotionally invested in it. Gwen's kids was a perfect example of that. He didn't want them to be Osborne's kids, and the story suffered not just because it was a stupid fucking idea, but because the writer thought it was a stupid fucking idea and didn't put his all into it. That's probably why the whole Gwen's kids story was wrapped up and forgotten in like 3 issues.

Kitsune
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Reply #15 on: December 05, 2007, 09:14:31 PM

Aw, fuck.  If JMS thought it was such shit that he wanted his name off the books, Peter's definitely going to take the deal.  And yeah, having Gwen Stacy giving creepy old Norman Osborn a pity-fuck made no goddamn sense.  Story 10x better if they'd been Peter's kids.
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Reply #16 on: December 09, 2007, 07:40:14 PM

It's pretty damning that he would have to write that at all.

I've always said that *editors* are the problem. Writers come and go, the editors are the people who are supposed to have the franchise view in mind. They are the ones who are supposed to ensure consistency in timelines, across titles and across characterizations.

The one thing that surprises me is I assumed the problem was editors being too permissive, not that they were *forcing* their writers to do stupid shit.

Edit: Joe Q seems like the perfect example of the Peter Principle in action.

If you read Steven Grant's column over at Comic Book Resources, one point he's made several times is that there are a number of editors who like to pretend they are actually doing the writing and that the writer is just doing monkeywork in producing the scripts.

On topic - Spider-Man actually needs to move away from Aunt May and stay with Mary Jane and become an adult. Because that's what bringing Aunt May back and breaking away from MJ does - it turns Peter Parker back into an adolescent.

Velorath
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Reply #17 on: December 10, 2007, 01:12:41 AM

On topic - Spider-Man actually needs to move away from Aunt May and stay with Mary Jane and become an adult. Because that's what bringing Aunt May back and breaking away from MJ does - it turns Peter Parker back into an adolescent.

The sad part is that they already have Ultimate Spider-man, which was created to fill that hole.
Margalis
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Reply #18 on: December 10, 2007, 12:48:36 PM

The whole concepts of Ultimates is kind of a mess. They were worried about too much continuity and such so they created Ultimates, but now those titles are building up a lot of continuity as well.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #19 on: December 10, 2007, 05:40:02 PM

The whole concepts of Ultimates is kind of a mess. They were worried about too much continuity and such so they created Ultimates, but now those titles are building up a lot of continuity as well.

That was always going to be the problem. Eventually the Ultimate Universe was going to catch up with the 616 universe. Knowing Marvel, they probably thought they'd deal with it when the time came.

But as long at the Ultimate Universe sells, it will continue to be printed.

Lt.Dan
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Reply #20 on: December 10, 2007, 07:05:05 PM

Well Chewbacca deserved to die.  What a fucking gimp.  No one understood a word he said and he left furballs everywhere.  Serious, now the Millenium Falcon never breaks down.
Ironwood
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Reply #21 on: December 11, 2007, 02:19:34 AM

Uh.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
HaemishM
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Reply #22 on: December 11, 2007, 07:43:14 AM

The Marvel Universe just needs a fucking reboot. They've arsed up the whole continuity on the line with Civil War, painted themselves into so many narrative corners, it'll take a serious house cleaning to unfuck everything. If they want Spidey to be a goddamn teenager again, just make him a goddamn teenager again. Fuck's sake.

Llava
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Reply #23 on: December 11, 2007, 08:16:24 AM

The day Marvel takes the blatant DC continuity rewrite OMG-CRISIS route to rewrite their whole universe is the day I give up on reading comics.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
HaemishM
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Reply #24 on: December 11, 2007, 08:42:03 AM

I think most universes that want to maintain brands like Batman or Spider-Man over 25 years need a reboot at least every 10 years just to keep shit straight.

LK
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Reply #25 on: December 11, 2007, 09:54:22 AM

Isn't that the problem inherent in how comic book stories are written? That they never really advance the characters and their world and just try and keep them in this perpetual state of continuity where things happen but nothing really changes?

The fact that all these characters have to be intertwined creates a cluster fuck that necessitates universe reboots.  I look at pretty much every manga ever created and I like how they have a beginning, an end, and a good progression in their stories.  Need an American example? Punisher: MAX.  Self-contained, excellent book.  Probably has to deal with how writers and artists are constantly shifted in and out of properties whereas manga doesn't have that.  The art shifts on Punisher: MAX don't bother me immensely, but when Garth Ennis leaves the title, I honestly hope they do not produce anymore Punisher: MAX stories.

When I think of the story of Spider-Man, I cannot honestly tell you what the point is aside from milking a character concept for 45+ years.  I think they used to tell stories back in the 70s? You know, using Spider-Man to explore concepts of race and the such.

If that made any sense, let me know.  I fully expect it didn't.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 09:57:26 AM by Lorekeep »

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JWIV
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Reply #26 on: December 11, 2007, 10:13:18 AM

I think most universes that want to maintain brands like Batman or Spider-Man over 25 years need a reboot at least every 10 years just to keep shit straight.

Comic book writers just need to realize that they're working on a paperback soap opera for teenage boys (instead of house wives) and treat it as such.
HaemishM
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Reply #27 on: December 11, 2007, 11:21:21 AM

Isn't that the problem inherent in how comic book stories are written? That they never really advance the characters and their world and just try and keep them in this perpetual state of continuity where things happen but nothing really changes?

Yes.

Quote
When I think of the story of Spider-Man, I cannot honestly tell you what the point is aside from milking a character concept for 45+ years.

That's why I said "universes who want to maintain brands." Characters of such iconic nature like Spider-Man, Batman, etc. are brands far and above what they meant narratively in their original stories. As such, the brands have to stick to some known tenets and when the writers feel they need to go beyond those, eventually those changes will necessitate a reboot.

It doesn't mean there can't be good, meaningful stories told through a brand. But it does mean eventually, everything will need to be reset or it will reach the point of ridiculousness.

Teleku
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Reply #28 on: December 11, 2007, 12:31:23 PM

The Marvel Universe just needs a fucking reboot. They've arsed up the whole continuity on the line with Civil War, painted themselves into so many narrative corners, it'll take a serious house cleaning to unfuck everything. If they want Spidey to be a goddamn teenager again, just make him a goddamn teenager again. Fuck's sake.
Uh, I thought thats what the Ultimate Universe exactly was.

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-Stephen Colbert
HaemishM
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Reply #29 on: December 11, 2007, 12:31:55 PM

Yep. Fat lot of good that did.

Cim
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Reply #30 on: December 12, 2007, 06:44:16 PM

This is all so upsetting! ;_;

Theres a place on your face that can save the human race, its called a smile, the positivity that it creates takes awhile, but the grin will turn an inch into a mile.
Kitsune
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Reply #31 on: December 29, 2007, 09:14:33 AM

The fourth issue is out, and unsurprisingly, Joe Quesada has fucked Marvel's biggest IP.  Everyone I know who had been getting the Spider-Man books has now canceled the comic.
Margalis
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Reply #32 on: December 29, 2007, 03:39:35 PM

What happened?

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Velorath
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Reply #33 on: December 29, 2007, 03:57:48 PM

What happened?

Haven't read it yet, but my understanding is that Peter and MJ agreed to a deal with Mephisto to more or less have their marriage erased from history in order to save Aunt May's life.  Peter is back living with Aunt May, and I think his unmasking in Civil War was retconned also (along with about 20 years worth of stories).
Mazakiel
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Reply #34 on: December 29, 2007, 03:58:22 PM

According to Wiki:

Quote
In Amazing Spider-Man #545, Peter and Mary Jane accept the deal, saving Aunt May's life at the cost of their marriage and the child they will never have together. Mephisto explains that theirs is a love that appears "but once every thousand years, and denying it to He whom I hate most" is his real goal. Mary Jane offers Mephisto something, but this occurs sotto voce so the readers do not know the terms of this deal. Peter awakens the following morning at Aunt May's home and hurries off to a surprise party in honor of Harry Osborn's return from Europe (Osborn did not die in this reality). Mary Jane seems to know Peter and is angry with him but readers are not told why. She leaves the party as Peter and others raise a toast to a "Brand New Day" (the name of the next large story arc for Spider-Man).


Sounds kinda weak to me. 
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