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Author Topic: Spider-Man is going to be a fucking goddamned retard. (SPOILERS)  (Read 24125 times)
Kitsune
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Reply #35 on: December 29, 2007, 06:07:44 PM

And what Wikipedia doesn't adequately mention is that Peter is a douche in the new reality, living in his aunt's home and riding a bicycle to Osborn's party.  Farewell, grown man teaching high school and responsible for his own life, hello man-child living off an old woman!
Margalis
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Reply #36 on: December 30, 2007, 01:09:47 AM

Wow this sounds so hamfisted. LOL. This is really the best they could come up with Mephisto breaks up their marriage just because?

I'm not sure I've ever heard of any comic before where the super-being came in as such an obvious proxy for the writer/editor.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Llava
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Reply #37 on: December 30, 2007, 02:47:27 PM


That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Jain Zar
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Reply #38 on: December 31, 2007, 04:51:51 AM

Im not sure which comics EIC is the bigger story killing douchebag.

Didio who probably thinks his hair will grow back if he has enough Teen Titans killed, or Quesada who just ruins everything interesting about the Marvel Universe.

No More Mutants?  FUCK YOU.

The ending of Civil War?  FUCK YOU.

No more Spidey marriage?  I RAN OUT OF FUCK YOUS SO MAKE IT A BLOW ME.

We have the Ultimate and Adventures line for single Spidey (though Ultimate is kinda borking it by still having Pete with MJ.  I'm sorry.  His relationship with Kitty Pryde was SO ADORABLE.  ULTIMATE DOES NOT NEED TO BE 616.) fun.
Not to mention all the cartoons and movies that all still fucking harp on MJ.  A new one is due in 08 with Gwen Stacy in it.  Which means they get to kill her for the umpteenth time so they can fucking harp on about Gwen instead of maybe not killing her every time..

Spidey has been married since 87 or so.  About HALF HIS PRINTED EXISTENCE.  They really couldn't think of any stories to tell?

Or a way of breaking up the relationship that wasn't entirely fucking retarded?

Oh wait.  Everything Marvel and DC does seems to end up retarded.  Ill stick to my little bits of the DCU and Ultimate universes and try to ignore the big pictures of bullshit as much as possible.

For every nice return to a semi status quo that worked (John's Teen Titans), there are way more that don't.  (Teen Titans from Infinite Crisis on pretty much.)


Mazakiel
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Reply #39 on: December 31, 2007, 08:31:18 AM

This whole thing makes so little sense, I have to wonder what the fuck Quesada is thinking.  Yeah, sure, okay, I can at least understand an argument that Peter pre-MJ was more interesting.  I personally think Peter having to juggle real responsibilities on top of being Spider-Man makes a more compelling story, but I can at least understand the view.  But that's what the Ultimate Spidey was for.  A Peter without all of that.  Fuck with that line if you have to get back to the beginning essence or whatever.  Tossing out all that continuity is just a big fuck you to the fans.  And turning him into a total loser instead of a geeky loser type?  That's just fucking insulting.  This is the type of crap that "What if?" was for. 

JMS should have kept his name of off this.  I'd be ashamed to have my name on it. 
Llava
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Reply #40 on: December 31, 2007, 02:51:01 PM

Maybe it's a bit on the nose but...



The new Peter Parker?

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
shiznitz
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Reply #41 on: December 31, 2007, 02:59:05 PM

Glad I saw this thread. I was about to buy Ultimate Spidey vol. 1-4.

I have never played WoW.
HaemishM
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Reply #42 on: December 31, 2007, 03:58:14 PM

Just read it. It IS weak. Weak sauce. Fucking weak.

One asshole editor gets it up his skirts that he doesn't like one decision from years back, and he magics it away. Not just the Aunt May death and the marriage but the whole fucked up sticky situation of the public unmasking.

Why bother? Seriously, why the fuck bother with the whole big publicity of the unmasking event if you're just going to retcon it away with a magic deal? It invalidates EVERYTHING THEY JUST DID FOR THE LAST TWO FUCKING YEARS. Is he still an Avenger? Probably, even though all of the registration shit, the conflict in that just got shitcanned.

Time for Joe Q. to go do something else. Marvel can't get much more narratively irrelevant.

Kail
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Reply #43 on: December 31, 2007, 11:26:30 PM

I know very little about superhero comics, but didn't they already basically try to do this with that whole "Clone Saga" clusterfuck back in the 90s?  "Spider-Man" but without all the baggage?  And wasn't it all magicked away at the last minute when the fans went ballistic?
Jain Zar
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Reply #44 on: December 31, 2007, 11:44:40 PM

Glad I saw this thread. I was about to buy Ultimate Spidey vol. 1-4.

And you should go out and buy the other 15 or so volumes to go with it.
Ultimate Spidey is pretty much safe from overwhelming fucktardery outside of being a tad too devoted to rehashing regular Marvel.
Triforcer
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Reply #45 on: January 01, 2008, 12:25:51 AM

I would forgive all Spiderman sins if one of the Marvel Zombies dipped into the main universe and ate him. 

Seriously, I never understood why Spiderman became the face of the Marvel Universe.  Batman (no powers, great trauma in past), Superman (aw-shucks farmboy, mostest mega badass powers), sure.

But Spiderman is just a douchey whiner with, all things considered, very minor powers.  In the D.C. universe, he'd be a D-lister fighting rodeo clowns with no powers (ie, Batman villains).  What's the appeal, really?

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Evildrider
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Reply #46 on: January 01, 2008, 12:47:12 AM

I would forgive all Spiderman sins if one of the Marvel Zombies dipped into the main universe and ate him. 

Seriously, I never understood why Spiderman became the face of the Marvel Universe.  Batman (no powers, great trauma in past), Superman (aw-shucks farmboy, mostest mega badass powers), sure.

But Spiderman is just a douchey whiner with, all things considered, very minor powers.  In the D.C. universe, he'd be a D-lister fighting rodeo clowns with no powers (ie, Batman villains).  What's the appeal, really?

Huh?  Spiderman is the "every man" of the superhero genre.  He's just some normal guy that happens to get powers.  That's his draw.  Not to mention his attitude and the way he carried himself.  Although after what i read just occured, he'd be better off cancelled.  :(

And umm.. most of the Marvel Universe would be considered a D-list superhero in the DC world.  Seriously, Superman would probably destroy almost everybody in the Marvel Universe by himself.  Not only is he that powerful, but they have tons of people that are near or above his powerlevel.  Look at what the real popular hero's are in Marvel and not many come close to superman's level.
Jain Zar
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Reply #47 on: January 01, 2008, 01:15:34 AM

I would forgive all Spiderman sins if one of the Marvel Zombies dipped into the main universe and ate him. 

Seriously, I never understood why Spiderman became the face of the Marvel Universe.  Batman (no powers, great trauma in past), Superman (aw-shucks farmboy, mostest mega badass powers), sure.

But Spiderman is just a douchey whiner with, all things considered, very minor powers.  In the D.C. universe, he'd be a D-lister fighting rodeo clowns with no powers (ie, Batman villains).  What's the appeal, really?

Huh?  Spiderman is the "every man" of the superhero genre.  He's just some normal guy that happens to get powers.  That's his draw.  Not to mention his attitude and the way he carried himself.  Although after what i read just occured, he'd be better off cancelled.  :(

And umm.. most of the Marvel Universe would be considered a D-list superhero in the DC world.  Seriously, Superman would probably destroy almost everybody in the Marvel Universe by himself.  Not only is he that powerful, but they have tons of people that are near or above his powerlevel.  Look at what the real popular hero's are in Marvel and not many come close to superman's level.

Yet Batman is probably the most feared hero in the DCU. 
And Nightwing is one of the most well liked by other characters.

Neither one has any powers.

Yet they have tons of respect.

Being UBAR isn't everything in DC.  Which is good given how stupidly powerful many characters are.  Superman or Captain Marvel could so demolish most anyone in Marvel.

Hell, Lex Luthor is one of the biggest threats out there and he is just a smart rich dude.  Joker has no powers unless batshit insane is a power. 

Velorath
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Reply #48 on: January 01, 2008, 04:50:33 AM

One thing that this has reminded me of, is that while the state of video game journalism is complete shite, comic book journalism is practically non-exsistant.  Erasing the last 20 years of the history of Marvel's flagship character should be a major story for the news sites.  What's the response from the Newsarama and Comic Book Resources (pretty much the only two major comic news sites)?  Newsarama put up a poll and Comic Book Resources is doing a five part promotion softball interview

Ironically, IGN is the only site that actually had the balls to do a front page review saying how much OMD sucked (sucking game publisher cock is apparently profitable enough that sucking comic publisher cock is beneath them).

Edit:  Actually it looks like Newsarama now has a fairly sizable article about OMD up.

On another note, shouldn't actually altering time in the MU be well out of the range of Mephisto's power?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 05:07:10 AM by Velorath »
Jain Zar
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Reply #49 on: January 01, 2008, 03:02:12 PM


On another note, shouldn't actually altering time in the MU be well out of the range of Mephisto's power?

Well some weeaboo webcomic with the prerequisite gender swapping can have ALL HISTORY REWRITTEN, so why can't Mephisto who has more power and has an idiot of an EIC with an agenda behind him?
HaemishM
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Reply #50 on: January 01, 2008, 03:49:05 PM

But Spiderman is just a douchey whiner with, all things considered, very minor powers. 

I don't often agree with Triforcer about much of anything, but I stand behind this opinion 150%. As much as I've tried to like Spidey in the past, he's never risen above whiney douche to me. I get the whole "everyman" aspect of his character, but I just don't buy it. To me, Daredevil makes a better everyman character.

Margalis
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Reply #51 on: January 01, 2008, 04:42:51 PM

Spider-Man can be a whiney douche, it depends on who is writing him. There is a tendancy to take his "woe is me" stuff too far, but it isn't intrinsic to the character.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #52 on: January 02, 2008, 06:38:06 AM

Spider-Man can be a whiney douche, it depends on who is writing him. There is a tendancy to take his "woe is me" stuff too far, but it isn't intrinsic to the character.

The big problem is that Spider-Man does carry a lot of doubts about his own abilities that he has to rise above in order to succeed. This is interesting the first two or three times, but by time 150, the reader no longer cares.

As for OMD - it really caps off a five year period (or so) where comic book storylines have never been more epic nor more hamfisted and badly written. No wonder comic book sales are going downhill when the content published monthly is that weak.

Cim
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Reply #53 on: January 02, 2008, 03:51:04 PM

They should kill Peter off by having Aunt May push him down the stairs.

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Margalis
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Reply #54 on: January 02, 2008, 05:44:32 PM

Examples of Spider-Man being in character without being douchey:

Spider-Man / Sin Eater stuff
Spider-Man vs. Wolverine (in Germany, death of Ned Leeds)
Kraven's Last Hunt

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Velorath
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Reply #55 on: January 03, 2008, 04:52:59 PM

JMS elaborates on the changes made to his script, in response to CBR's interview with Quesada.

So earlier in the week, in one of the parts of CBR's interview with Quesada, they get into talking about the whole thing where JMS wanted to take his name off the final issue of OMD.  Quesada explained that while JMS had no problem erasing the marriage, a lot of the details of what Mephisto was changing were different in JMS's script from what had been agreed upon, and it conflicted with the writers were working on with Brand New Day.

The above link is JMS explaining that while that is true, it leaves out some of the details of what JMS and Quesada were disagreeing over.  And while I do have to say that the basic idea is shit regardless of which way it went down, JMS paints a pretty bleak picture of Quesada/Marvel Editorial's understanding of some basic rules of fiction.
HaemishM
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Reply #56 on: January 03, 2008, 05:02:00 PM

I love this part.

Quote from: JMS
And yes, I wanted to retcon the Gwen twins out of continuity, which was something I always assumed I could do at the end of my run.

So he assumed he could retcon out the Gwen twins as he was writing them? Am I inferring something he's not saying there?

Considering that was one of the worst bits of his run, at least before the eating a guy's face off and the unmasking thing, that's a big-time copout to make something happen that you know you'll retcon eventually.

Other than that, JMS sounds like he got the shaft on this one, but not as much of a shaft as the fans.

Velorath
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Reply #57 on: January 03, 2008, 06:32:33 PM

I love this part.

Quote from: JMS
And yes, I wanted to retcon the Gwen twins out of continuity, which was something I always assumed I could do at the end of my run.

So he assumed he could retcon out the Gwen twins as he was writing them? Am I inferring something he's not saying there?

Considering that was one of the worst bits of his run, at least before the eating a guy's face off and the unmasking thing, that's a big-time copout to make something happen that you know you'll retcon eventually.

Other than that, JMS sounds like he got the shaft on this one, but not as much of a shaft as the fans.

I took it to mean that after Marvel editorial forced him to make the kids Norman's instead of Peter's, he decided he'd retcon them out later.
HaemishM
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Reply #58 on: January 03, 2008, 07:37:51 PM

Right, that's what I mean. So he wrote it knowing it'd be retconned. Shitty. I realize it's not entirely his fault, since Marvel editorial is calling the shots, but still shitty.

Velorath
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Reply #59 on: January 03, 2008, 07:45:51 PM

Right, that's what I mean. So he wrote it knowing it'd be retconned. Shitty. I realize it's not entirely his fault, since Marvel editorial is calling the shots, but still shitty.

I'm not sure at what part in the process he was told his story couldn't go through as planned.  I can understand it if he didn't find out until after he'd already handed in the first couple scripts or if Marvel had already hyped up the arc so he couldn't just scrap the story.  It sounds like the problems between JMS and Quesada with OMD didn't start until he was handing in the last couple of scripts, so it's reasonable to think that by the time he learned that the kids would have to be Norman's, he was already commited to writing the arc and just figured "well, I guess I have to finish this up, but now I want to get rid of this shit stain on continuity before I leave".
Margalis
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Reply #60 on: January 04, 2008, 06:18:49 PM

You have to love the idea of a writer writing something while planning to erase it from history a few months later.

Edit: They both sound like idiots. Debating the best way to retcon a ton of stuff out of existence, trying to choose between two equally moronic options.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 06:23:18 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Mazakiel
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Reply #61 on: January 04, 2008, 10:11:21 PM

The impression I'd gotten is that after the story had been started and gone into production, he started turning in the resolution scripts and had editorial pull a Lumbergh and go, "Mmm, yeah, if you could just go ahead and make them Osborn's kids instead, that'd be great..."

As to the One More Day crap, after reading about both sides of it, I get the impression that JMS had the story forced on him, tried to make it play out the best that he could, and even had that taken away.  Everything else smacks of obfuscation by Quesada, to me at least.  Maybe I shouldn't be giving a pass to JMS, but considering that Marvel as a whole is going to shit based off of idiotic "What if..." stories given main continuity, this all seems like just another boneheaded decision by the man in charge. 
Margalis
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Reply #62 on: January 05, 2008, 01:58:21 AM

But apparently JSM was totally willing to retcon away Spider-Man taking off his mask and him being married to Mary Jane. So dumb.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
caladein
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Reply #63 on: January 05, 2008, 09:17:11 AM

(Hopefully hot-linking works okay...)


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angry.bob
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Reply #64 on: January 08, 2008, 11:04:18 AM

I have never read Spiderman, but this was really fucking stupid. Seriously.

If they were going to fuck up Spiderman and end their marriage, there were way better ways to do it. Ways that wouldn’t have retconed all sorts of shit, made Peter Parker turn into Chris Elliot in Get a life, and would have generated shit tons of press and sales. Here’s what they should have done:

For a couple of issues Mary Jane gets letters/phone calls that upset her, but she hides it from Peter. Once the story arc swings into gear, we find out that before they started dating, Mary Jane let a boyfriend film them boning/her blowing him/naked pictures. Now someone is threatening to sell them over the internet unless she pays ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS!!!! Here’s where the money and press really kick inn – bag the comics and put in certificate with a code inside each issue. Have someone who’s good at cheesecake like Adam Hughes do a series of 20 or so pieces with Mary Jane getting more and more naked until by the end she’s doing shit you’d see in Hustler. Full on toon pornography. For each code you enter you get to see the next picture, so to see them all you need to buy all 20 books. The press would go even more apeshit than they did over that statue where she’s bent over washing his uniform. And honestly, you all know a Mary Jane stroke book would be the biggest selling comic in history.

Story wise, you can do all sorts of stuff from there. Angsty fights, Peter beating the shit out of the guy – maybe to death, they get divorced, they get back together, whatever.

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Ironwood
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Reply #65 on: January 08, 2008, 11:06:32 AM

I'm with the chemically enhanced chap above.

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Mazakiel
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Reply #66 on: January 08, 2008, 11:10:52 AM

You know, reading Bob's post, I'm reminded of something....didn't Peter and MJ seperate/almost divorce/divorce at some point in the past few years?  And then JMS or someone had them get back together?  This whole deal seems like a repeat of that, except that just like the past few Spiderman changes, like the unmasking, it's pretty much a given that it'll be undone somehow, and probably relatively soonish. 

Also, has Aunt May gone back to not knowing Pete's Spiderman?  Personally, I thought her finally discovering that was one of the better changes of recent years. 
HaemishM
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Reply #67 on: January 08, 2008, 12:59:47 PM

I like the stroke book concept much much better than what actually was written.

And yes, Pete and MJ split a few years back, she disappeared from the book for a few years, there was hints at a child that Peter doesn't know about that went missing and then they got back together.

I can't tell if May knows Peter is Spider-Man or not in the new status quo.

LK
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Reply #68 on: January 08, 2008, 02:28:43 PM

I gathered by that Status Quo thing they mean that nobody knows Peter's secret, even his loved ones.

"Then there's the double-barreled shotgun from Doom 2 - no-one within your entire household could be of any doubt that it's been fired because it sounds like God slamming a door on his fingers." - Yahtzee Croshaw
Kitsune
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Reply #69 on: January 08, 2008, 10:53:41 PM

Peter and MJ had been separated for a long while.  She was off doing super-model things off-camera for I dunno how long.  When Straczynski took over the comic, they hooked back up (in a pretty convincingly awkward one-step-at-a-time way), Aunt May found out about the secret identity (which was also done very well), and Straczynski's efforts managed to portray both MJ and Aunt May as actual grown-ups capable of acting intelligently and decisively rather than a random bimbo and senile old woman who were only around to be kidnapped by the villain of the week.

He also delved into the nature of Peter's powers to great depth, taking a generic Stan Lee 'radiation makes everything better!' origin and giving an interesting and compelling argument that his powers are at least as much supernatural as they are a freak application of radiation.  On top of that, he gave Pete a few new powers, none of which he had time to really explore before the whole Civil War idiocy sprang up and shat on Marvel's fanbase.

Now all of that is gone.
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