f13.net

Speak of the devil and he shall appear....

For whatever it's worth, the situation is not as clear cut as one
might hope. The reality of any writer workingfor any company, DC or
Marvel or Image, is that when you're handed a franchise character,
you're basically entrusted with something that the company owns, and
the company has final say in what happens to that character, because
as a writer, you're only there for a certain amount of time and then
the next guy has to come in. Spider-Man belongs to Marvel, not to me,
and at the end of the day, however much I may disagree with things,
and however much I may make it very CLEAR to all parties that I
disagree, I have to honor their position.

In the Gwen storyline, yes, I wanted it to be Peter's kids, Joe over-
rode that, which is his right as EIC. I got the flack for that
decision, but them's the breaks.

In the current storyline, there's a lot that I don't agree with, and I
made this very clear to everybody within shouting distance at Marvel,
especially Joe. I'll be honest: there was a point where I made the
decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last
two issues of the OMD arc. Eventually Joe talked me out of that
decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe
or Marvel, and I have a lot of respect for both of those. As an
executive producer as well as a writer, I've sometimes had to insist
that my writers make changes that they did not want to make, often
loudly so. They were sure I was wrong. Mostly I was right.
Sometimes I was wrong. But whoever sits in the editor's chair, or the
executive producer's chair, wears the pointy hat of authority, and as
Dave Sim once noted, you can't argue with a pointy hat.

So at the end of the day, all one can do is try to do the best one can
with the notes one is given, and try to execute them in a professional
way...because who knows, the other guy may be right. The only thing I
*can* tell you, with absolute certainty, is that what Joe does with
Spidey and all the rest of the Marvel characters, he does out of a
genuine love of the character. He's not looking to sabotage anything,
he's not looking to piss off the fans, he genuinely believes in the
rightness of his views not out of a sense of "I'm the boss" but
because he loves these characters and the Marvel universe.

And right or wrong, you have to respect that.

The one thing that surprises me is I assumed the problem was editors being too permissive, not that they were *forcing* their writers to do stupid shit.

I think 99% of this is due to the movies being so popular. When Quesada first took over as EIC, he was doing was pretty wild things that Marvel had never tried before. Then the movies hit and their line became a bit of vanilla since they weren't in that rebuilding phase anymore.

It's pretty damning that he would have to write that at all.

I've always said that *editors* are the problem. Writers come and go, the editors are the people who are supposed to have the franchise view in mind. They are the ones who are supposed to ensure consistency in timelines, across titles and across characterizations.

The one thing that surprises me is I assumed the problem was editors being too permissive, not that they were *forcing* their writers to do stupid shit.

Edit: Joe Q seems like the perfect example of the Peter Principle in action.

On topic - Spider-Man actually needs to move away from Aunt May and stay with Mary Jane and become an adult. Because that's what bringing Aunt May back and breaking away from MJ does - it turns Peter Parker back into an adolescent.

The whole concepts of Ultimates is kind of a mess. They were worried about too much continuity and such so they created Ultimates, but now those titles are building up a lot of continuity as well.

I think most universes that want to maintain brands like Batman or Spider-Man over 25 years need a reboot at least every 10 years just to keep shit straight.

Isn't that the problem inherent in how comic book stories are written? That they never really advance the characters and their world and just try and keep them in this perpetual state of continuity where things happen but nothing really changes?

When I think of the story of Spider-Man, I cannot honestly tell you what the point is aside from milking a character concept for 45+ years.

The Marvel Universe just needs a fucking reboot. They've arsed up the whole continuity on the line with Civil War, painted themselves into so many narrative corners, it'll take a serious house cleaning to unfuck everything. If they want Spidey to be a goddamn teenager again, just make him a goddamn teenager again. Fuck's sake.

What happened?

In Amazing Spider-Man #545, Peter and Mary Jane accept the deal, saving Aunt May's life at the cost of their marriage and the child they will never have together. Mephisto explains that theirs is a love that appears "but once every thousand years, and denying it to He whom I hate most" is his real goal. Mary Jane offers Mephisto something, but this occurs sotto voce so the readers do not know the terms of this deal. Peter awakens the following morning at Aunt May's home and hurries off to a surprise party in honor of Harry Osborn's return from Europe (Osborn did not die in this reality). Mary Jane seems to know Peter and is angry with him but readers are not told why. She leaves the party as Peter and others raise a toast to a "Brand New Day" (the name of the next large story arc for Spider-Man).

Glad I saw this thread. I was about to buy Ultimate Spidey vol. 1-4.

I would forgive all Spiderman sins if one of the Marvel Zombies dipped into the main universe and ate him. 

Seriously, I never understood why Spiderman became the face of the Marvel Universe.  Batman (no powers, great trauma in past), Superman (aw-shucks farmboy, mostest mega badass powers), sure.

But Spiderman is just a douchey whiner with, all things considered, very minor powers.  In the D.C. universe, he'd be a D-lister fighting rodeo clowns with no powers (ie, Batman villains).  What's the appeal, really?

Huh?  Spiderman is the "every man" of the superhero genre.  He's just some normal guy that happens to get powers.  That's his draw.  Not to mention his attitude and the way he carried himself.  Although after what i read just occured, he'd be better off cancelled.  :(

And umm.. most of the Marvel Universe would be considered a D-list superhero in the DC world.  Seriously, Superman would probably destroy almost everybody in the Marvel Universe by himself.  Not only is he that powerful, but they have tons of people that are near or above his powerlevel.  Look at what the real popular hero's are in Marvel and not many come close to superman's level.

On another note, shouldn't actually altering time in the MU be well out of the range of Mephisto's power?

But Spiderman is just a douchey whiner with, all things considered, very minor powers. 

Spider-Man can be a whiney douche, it depends on who is writing him. There is a tendancy to take his "woe is me" stuff too far, but it isn't intrinsic to the character.

And yes, I wanted to retcon the Gwen twins out of continuity, which was something I always assumed I could do at the end of my run.

I love this part.


So he assumed he could retcon out the Gwen twins as he was writing them? Am I inferring something he's not saying there?

Considering that was one of the worst bits of his run, at least before the eating a guy's face off and the unmasking thing, that's a big-time copout to make something happen that you know you'll retcon eventually.

Other than that, JMS sounds like he got the shaft on this one, but not as much of a shaft as the fans.

Right, that's what I mean. So he wrote it knowing it'd be retconned. Shitty. I realize it's not entirely his fault, since Marvel editorial is calling the shots, but still shitty.

I like Raph. This thread makes me sad.  :cry:

At the sametime its kind of fun to watch people get this upset over a video game.

They've introduced a red-headed superhero named Jackpot (as in "Face it Tiger, you just hit the...) who mentions that she's model, and she uses the word Tiger in the same way that MJ does.  There's a one panel cameo of her in the main story, and then she has a back-up story near the end of the book.

They've introduced a red-headed superhero named Jackpot (as in "Face it Tiger, you just hit the...) who mentions that she's model, and she uses the word Tiger in the same way that MJ does.  There's a one panel cameo of her in the main story, and then she has a back-up story near the end of the book.

You could combine all the gay people in all the world, and all the gay beings in the universe who we haven't met yet, and you still could not conceive of something with the amount of gay that making MJ a super-hero would contain.

They've introduced a red-headed superhero named Jackpot (as in "Face it Tiger, you just hit the...) who mentions that she's model, and she uses the word Tiger in the same way that MJ does.  There's a one panel cameo of her in the main story, and then she has a back-up story near the end of the book.

The Civil War retcon reads, "Although some people seem to recall that Spidey unmasked himself during Civil War, no one quite remembers whose face was under the mask." The spread concluded with "Any questions? Hey, don't ask us -- we're new here ourselves! Anyway, the past is past -- so don't look back, look forward, to the next great epoch in the ongoing saga of Spider-Man: Brand New Day!"

And why exactly would a 616 reboot be a BAD thing? Especially when compared to this?

Fuck it, if you want a return to 1970's status quo, fuck it, JUST REBOOT THE GODDAMN UNIVERSE.

As an aside.. I guess the Spidey fuckover will probably kill the chances of a Spidey 4.

Spidey 3 did that well enough.

Oh yeah, and the Hulk eats motherfuckers in Ultimates. I don't mean, "he beats the shit out of them," eats, I mean he literally has a meal on motherfuckers because Captain America told the Hulk they called him gay.

My only problem with 3, was that they forced Venom on Raimi.  It just needed more Sandman.

That was your only problem with it?  When he starts to turn emo, sees himself in a mirror and intentionally emoflips his hair didn't bother you?  The dancing in the streets didn't bother you?

Ultimate Hulk is a lot like Alan Moore's Mr. Hyde.

my most vivid memory is always MJ stripping in front of a depressed Peter to help him recharge his batteries.

I don't think Ultimate Hulk engaged in violent fatal sodomy with anyone...
Ate people and got hit in the nards sure!

That was your only problem with it?  When he starts to turn emo, sees himself in a mirror and intentionally emoflips his hair didn't bother you?  The dancing in the streets didn't bother you?

Nah, the worst was during McFarlane's run when Spidey webbed his wife to the walls bondage style and was last seen leering over her poon.

Isn't that the problem inherent in how comic book stories are written? That they never really advance the characters and their world and just try and keep them in this perpetual state of continuity where things happen but nothing really changes?

The fact that all these characters have to be intertwined creates a cluster fuck that necessitates universe reboots.  I look at pretty much every manga ever created and I like how they have a beginning, an end, and a good progression in their stories.  Need an American example? Punisher: MAX.  Self-contained, excellent book.  Probably has to deal with how writers and artists are constantly shifted in and out of properties whereas manga doesn't have that.  The art shifts on Punisher: MAX don't bother me immensely, but when Garth Ennis leaves the title, I honestly hope they do not produce anymore Punisher: MAX stories.

When I think of the story of Spider-Man, I cannot honestly tell you what the point is aside from milking a character concept for 45+ years.  I think they used to tell stories back in the 70s? You know, using Spider-Man to explore concepts of race and the such.

If that made any sense, let me know.  I fully expect it didn't.

I think you nailed the difference between "western", i.e. American, Comics and Asian Manga.  The latter tell stories whereas the former push a franchise.  If the character changes you risk alienating fans or ultimately ending the money train.  That is why I hate monthly comics.  they are an exercise in whoredom. 

I guess if you want to push bullshit generalizations, then you have a point.

Its Marvel and DC to a T.  The companies hardly exist to print comics anymore.  Its more an IP holding center than anything else.

The indies are of course different.  (And creator or artsy driven lines like Vertigo.)

Having just read this thread, I'm more glad than ever I quit my Marvel Superhero comics-reading years ago.

I guess that's easier than just not reading the shitty stuff.

I did that for awhile. Vertigo, Dark Horse, Grendel, Sandman, Hellblazer, Hellboy, Disney Donald Duck/Scrooge stuff by Carl Barks and Don Rosa. Odd bits of AVP, Batman One-shots, When Ennis and Crotchlow left Hellblazer I started getting Preacher, The Punisher as my guilty pleasure even before Ennis took over. Anything interesting by Alan Moore, Frank Miller or other authours of note. Went in every month or three to pick up the new stuff, since I prefer to read any title in a batch rather than little snippets of so many stories on a monthly basis. Eventually I lapsed.

But fuck, every time I go into a comic store to browse these days I see the fucking things are about $5+ each. They're just not worth the money to me anymore. Like Games Workshop/Miniatures stuff. The price has increased so much, that despite the fact that I have way more disposable income now than I did back then, I can't justify spending it on that stuff to myself.

TPB's are kind of worth it to me. Usually they're about 7 issues for $10.

Or just buy manga instead.  :awesome_for_real:

Comics aren't quite 5 bucks for 22 pages yet.  The most expensive seems to be IDW with their 3.99 for a Transformers comic.  That mostly just jerks off the G1 fanboys with the same tired shit anyhow.  The cheapest seems to be the kid's books.  Teen Titans Go! is like 2.25-2.50.  DC knows how to use cheap paper though.  Few other companies do.  DC will even use it for trades.

I think pointing out that prices increased 3-4x in a decade is fair.

If you compare comics to the price of things like books, movies, music, etc, the comic prices have proportionally risen. Given how long it takes to read the average comic book it just isn't worth it in most cases. The paper quality has improved but the stories haven't and issues are delayed much more frequently than they used to be.

Comic books are no longer something you just buy casually.

35 cents? When was that, 1963?  :awesome_for_real: