SWTOR Goes F2P in the Fall

[eldaec]

He is also 'revising history to a remarkable extent' when he implies EA orginally made this awesome WoW beater but had to retrofit a load of story bullshit. Earlier versions were more Kotor-online, every patch moved it closer to being a weak-sauce oh-shit-add-more-raiding.

And the Kotor bits were the only good bits. If that is what the customer base was screaming for, hey, maybe you should have listened. Hero.

(incidentally, the forum feedback was actually pretty mixed)

[Riggswolfe]

They were having delusions of grandeur. 

 


The main problem I had with TOR was that, as I leveled, I felt like I was actually getting weaker, rather than more powerful.  It was much more pronounced with my Sorcerer than my BH, but by the time I hit the mid-30's fighting mobs had just become a chore.

Blame the betatesters and blame Bioware for caving. A very vocal subset of Betatesters bitched and whined that the game was too easy and needed to be harder. In beta combat was fun as hell because you felt like a bad ass. You felt like a jedi, or like Han Solo or Bob Fett. You knew when you got into combat you were going to treat the mobs like your bitches. Now, it was probably a bit too easy since most fights ended with you losing about a 1/3-1/4 of your health but after months of whining Bioware massively jacked up the difficulty towards the end of beta, especially for later levels and the betatesters who said it was too much and made you feel less powerful at later levels were largely ignored.

[Lantyssa]

Beta testers tend to be the hardcore.  Designers really need to realize that when considering their feedback.  Also that they're often rabid and not thinking so much as spouting deeply held dogma.

[Minvaren]

In beta combat was fun as hell because you felt like a bad ass. You felt like a jedi, or like Han Solo or Bob Fett.

You felt like a jedi, or like Han Solo or Bob Fett.

like Han Solo or Bob Fett.

Bob Fett.

 

[Mattemeo]

They won't. WoW was and still is (whether it's bleeding players at any given time or not) a phenomenon that won't be repeated by another DIKU MMO, if any type of MMO. Not even one of Blizzard's making.

We (wrongly) believed before WoW was released that the highest numbers a MMO could expect would be in the hundreds of thousands. There are billions of people on this planet who are becoming more connected every year. I don't think it's impossible to believe that 20M of them could play the next big thing.

Never say never.

When WoW was announced I pretty much said it would be the biggest MMO ever made. This isn't exactly a brag because let's face it, anyone who'd been paying attention to Blizzard at the time could have predicted that - the developer of two of the biggest selling RTS franchises and two of the most inordinately successful dungeon crawlers of all time suddenly dipping their wick into MMO territory sounded like mana from heaven; all things put into consideration.

Had SWtOR come out around the same time, it would have stood a fair chance at competing, I think. What's really crazy is how close EA came with UO2 to then shelve the whole game and all its assets (although I think some ended up being hamfistedly rammed into a UO 3D expansion at one point, I'm not sure). I can't begin to imagine how much money was effectively squandered on that project, but someone had to have made the decision. Was it based on the game being awful/unfinishable or based on fears of dying publically in comparison to WoW's juggernauting?
But we're talking points in time, here. 2005 was the right moment, and Blizzard hit it guns blazing with a ridiculously solid DIKU game that took many of the best parts of the games that came before, wrapped it up in an immensely appealing IP and shipped it in a manner that meant pretty much anyone with a beige box running windows could play it. WoW is pure zeitgeist. Titan's only hope of achieving the same level of success hinges on Blizzard keeping it under wraps till exactly the right time; by which point whatever game model they've gone for might be out of date. We've seen Bioware fall dramatically from grace in the last 5 years; Blizzard have already lost their footing with the general malaise around Diablo III.

I agree you should never say never but I think the market for the MMO is vastly different to what a lot of the old guard believe it to be still and that it'll change far faster than some can keep up with. In the last year alone we've had several major MMOs appear that seek to change the genre in different ways that all matter to a certain degree. As Penny Arcade put it a few months ago, though - you do kind of wish they'd all just team up and make one that brings the best of each team together.

[Mosesandstick]

(incidentally, the forum feedback was actually pretty mixed)

I think Eldaec's right. Sure there were tons of hardcore MMO players in beta but there were also quite a few single player RPG fans and casuals. It was up to Bioware who's feedback they listened to.

[Amaron]

I think Eldaec's right. Sure there were tons of hardcore MMO players in beta but there were also quite a few single player RPG fans and casuals. It was up to Bioware who's feedback they listened to.

People don't know what they want.  It's better to look at results.  I don't buy his argument that it was the fans fault anyways though.  The push for no LFD seemed to be fairly internal for instance.  Every time someone brought it up they had a plethora of their own reasons that sounded fairly specific.

[Phred]

The main problem I had with TOR was that, as I leveled, I felt like I was actually getting weaker, rather than more powerful.  It was much more pronounced with my Sorcerer than my BH, but by the time I hit the mid-30's fighting mobs had just become a chore.

I was sure there was a post shortly after the game released where someone said this exact thing then said they were one of the testers telling Bioware to make it harder. That wasn't you was it?

[Kageru]

The suggestion that a dev team is blindly following fan suggestions as their design document is a damning indictment and not an excuse.

[Sjofn]

I don't think they are, though, which is fine of course, but sort of funny, since the part he's blaming the fans for is the part that makes this particular MMO interesting. I am perfectly fine with the combat and shit, but I sure as hell don't play it for that.

[UnSub]

Assuming that the original poster actually works for BioWare AND has some knowledge from the inside, blaming the fans is a weak argument. The fans can't know what is going in the background, what the design goals are, how certain systems interlock, which systems are coming next etc.

Beta testers can only provide feedback based on the info they know and usually the devs don't provide the full design documents to tell them what should be happening.

Tester feedback is a useful resource, but I doubt for a second that BioWare was a slave to fan decisions. Blaming the fans, however, passes the buck outside of BioWare / the devs responsible for the decisions.

[eldaec]

Basically there were forum posters saying 'make it more like WoW'.

Then there were other forum posters saying 'shut the fuck up you nutless assmunchers, make it fun instead'.

As demonstrated by actual development direction EA decided to listen to the former. There was enough forum noise to justify whatever action they wanted, but in reality I suspect they turned it into an EQ knockoff because the failed-previous-mmo contingent of bioware austin won the internal pissing contest.

The part that makes this guy offensively revisionist is that he is claiming that the ongoing development of the game was headed in exactly the opposite direction to where it actually went. They simply were not developing the story experience kotoresque elements, they were left to rot while the dev team pissed budget away polishing out any original or novel elements of the game that didn't follow precisely the same path that WoW had chosen.

The difficulty curve is a great example. Notice what doesn't happen at the end of Kotor or any other bioware game? You don't suddenly become less powerful than the average grunt, instead you sweep them away six at a time with the merest nod from your awesomeness. If the game was flat out too easy they needed to put in more mobs, not more HPs.

[Margalis]

Basically there were forum posters saying 'make it more like WoW'.

The game was like WoW from day 1.

I don't even understand this conversation. It was clear that the game was WoW mechanics with story and a Star Wars skin, the devs even said so. There were quotes from them about blah blah best of breed combat, no need to re-invent the wheel, go with tried and true mechanics while adding the story pillar.

The game was always intended to be like WoW. The idea that that was a reaction to fan feedback seems absurd. I mean, you can find posts of mine from like 2 or 3 years ago bemoaning that it was a WoW clone.

[Amaron]

I don't even understand this conversation.

He's saying they failed to clone WoW properly because of the Kotor bits.  In other words the logic is if they'd cloned it better they'd have millions of customers.

[eldaec]

I don't read it that way, but if that what he means then I accept that he is a a fucking idiot rather than a disingenuous pillock.

[Venkman]

The forums probably went up the day the game was announced.

That article was stupid, it really doesn't matter when the forums went live, and it doesn't matter if the guy worked at BW. Anyone who wasn't completely offline before SWTOR launched knew the game was the actual Everquest with Wookiees that so many wrongly thought SWG was going to be. That means they were hoping the vast majority of players were ignorant first timers, whether it was their first MMO or their first rebound MMO (roughly the same niave optimism).

Can a AAA MMO hit 20mm subscribers worldwide? Sure. But none from any Western developer is ever likely to. Nobody's going to invest that much anymore. Most got smart after LoTRO. I've long felt SWTOR was going to be the last gasp of the "perfect storm" MMO of household name IP, unlimited budget, and renowned studio, with the industry collectively (and finally) recognizing that WoW was it. The only time we'll see "20mm" will be "registered accounts" or "log ins" or "avatars created" or even more esoteric "eyeballs" or "impressions".

And Titan. Heh. That has more of a chance of getting canned than ever launching. But even if it does launch, by that point, it'll probably be played on a Smart TV through Netflix 

[Goreschach]

And Titan. Heh. That has more of a chance of getting canned than ever launching. But even if it does launch, by that point, it'll probably be played on a Smart TV through Netflix 

Never go full retard.

[Venkman]

Huh?

[Paelos]

I believe he's questioning your logic of saying that Blizzard's main R&D project is more likely to die stillborn than see the light of day.

That said, his choice of one of the least funny offensive lines in movie history is questionable as well.

[Venkman]

Ah. Thought it was a rip on the idea going Smart TV.

Until we know something more than the name, I've got Titan in my Starcraft: Ghost category.

[Kageru]

Blizzard saying they're not going to have a successor to WoW would have Upper management coming around with a baseball bat looking for limbs to break. They're going to want the money train to keep rolling.

Though after Diablo 3 the possibility of Blizzard screwing up the transition actually looks possible.

[Hutch]

Blizzard saying they're not going to have a successor to WoW would have Upper management coming around with a baseball bat looking for limbs to break. They're going to want the money train to keep rolling.

Though after Diablo 3 the possibility of Blizzard screwing up the transition actually looks possible.

To say nothing of the Cata aftermath.

[Venkman]

You could look at Cata, D3 and SC2 all in the same light. None of these decade plus well established high affinity brands were enough to make their recent iterations perform to gamer expectations, and therefore not to industry (and notably with D3, not to Blizzard) expectations. Granted, all of these were successful in ways any other company would do all sorts of illegal things to achieve. But historial Blizzard standards are different.

A brand new big budget IP looks a lot better before 2010 for them. And thus, my skepticism they're placing the entire hope of their company on Titan

[Sheepherder]

A brand new big budget IP looks a lot better before 2010 for them. And thus, my skepticism they're placing the entire hope of their company on Titan

They aren't.  Blizzard's war chest is an above ground swimming pool made of laminated money and filled with only the most exquisitely cut diamonds.

[Paelos]

My thoughts about Titan have been pretty much the same since they discussed it in 2010:

- We know it's not related to a previous IP
- We know they don't want it to immediately compete with WoW
- We know they are pulling in tons of developers and dollars to the project
- We know the Blizzard model is to take existing ideas and "improve/polish" them

That basically leaves me thinking they are going to try to go into the FPS arena, likely to compete with an MMO like Planetside 2.

[Margalis]

From what I've heard development of Titan is pretty troubled, though I don't know why that is or how much worse it is than recent Blizzard typical flailing.

[Simond]

Someone really needs to try and persuade Bobby Kotick to move into politics or ambulance-chasing or running rigged card games on a street corner or something - they'd all suit his personality and skill-set much better than "running Blactivizzard (into the ground)".

[Tannhauser]

I'll play SWTOR when it goes FTP.  If they do it right, the game could rebound and start making them a decent amount of income.  I really like the Turbine model and would love to see that implemented.  Just wish they'd add this monthly content they keep going on about. 

[lamaros]

I don't even understand this conversation.

He's saying they failed to clone WoW properly because of the Kotor bits.  In other words the logic is if they'd cloned it better they'd have millions of customers.

I don't even know what people mean when they say WoW anymore. Do they mean the original game with world and level design that included BRD, Strath, etc? Do they mean the recent expansions?

Very often it seems they mean "make it like WoW now!" with no detailed examination. But what WoW is now is much more than the current incarnation - if you cloned it exactly there is no way it would be as successful as the original. In my view what WoW originally was (UI developments and other 'obvious' changes aside) is just as significant in why it is as successful as it is in its current incarnation.

[Kageru]

There's no suggestion the SWTOR developers really thought too hard about it either.

[Malakili]

I think MMO developers have lost view of the fact that (at least in my opinion) the reason people play MMOs over the long term is the other players.   Maybe it isn't what gets them into the game, and maybe it isn't what gets them lots of pre-release press, but any MMO I've played for more than a few months, I stayed for the people at least as much as, and usually more than, the game.  So, when something like TOR comes out, it can be a perfectly fun game to play, but that isn't enough by itself to stay with an MMO.   Obviously you have to get that right too, but being a good game just plain isn't enough in the MMO space.  I don't really have a solution for this, but if I'm playing MMO A, and MMO B comes out and I like it slightly more, but I've already invested 2000 hours in MMO A and have a huge base of friends to play with in it, I'm not switching to what I acknowledge is a better game.  Every new MMO release is pretty hamstrung by this.


In other words, I think we can argue all day about this and that which mechanics work in WoW and don't work in WoW, or SWTOR, or whatever release, but I don't think there is a formula that exists that is actually going to lead to a sure fire success, you'll need some luck and circumstance that you just can't build into the development process.

[lamaros]

I think MMO developers have lost view of the fact that (at least in my opinion) the reason people play MMOs over the long term is the other players.   Maybe it isn't what gets them into the game, and maybe it isn't what gets them lots of pre-release press, but any MMO I've played for more than a few months, I stayed for the people at least as much as, and usually more than, the game.  So, when something like TOR comes out, it can be a perfectly fun game to play, but that isn't enough by itself to stay with an MMO.   Obviously you have to get that right too, but being a good game just plain isn't enough in the MMO space.  I don't really have a solution for this, but if I'm playing MMO A, and MMO B comes out and I like it slightly more, but I've already invested 2000 hours in MMO A and have a huge base of friends to play with in it, I'm not switching to what I acknowledge is a better game.  Every new MMO release is pretty hamstrung by this.

Maybe, but there is something that keeps those original players too, the ones that don't move and thus make their friends move to them.

I remember playing GW and WoW before they came out. I far far enjoyed GW pre-release more than WoW. I bought them both and ended up playing WoW much much more in the end though. As a persistent game it was just much more interesting. You can put this down to whatever factors you want (instancing decisions, level and equipment systems, world and dungeon design, opaque areas of the world - other factions, raids, etc) but WoW felt like a world and had a large number of players that treated it as such. This gave the whole thing energy and excitement, and persistent social interactions - direct and indirect - that kept people playing and getting others they knew to join in.

I always use it as an example, but there's a reason that WoW - the most successful MMO by far, made Black Rock Depths, a 'failed' dungeon that most never visited, let alone finished, let alone visited every part of.

[Dark_MadMax]

When all is said and done people would realize how much better it would been if SWTOR was released as single player game and SWG was not killed on the altar in the process

In other words, I think we can argue all day about this and that which mechanics work in WoW and don't work in WoW, or SWTOR, or whatever release, but I don't think there is a formula that exists that is actually going to lead to a sure fire success, you'll need some luck and circumstance that you just can't build into the development process.

Ohh there is a formula. I knew WoW would be run away success world has never seen before shortly after I seen the beta. And I also new no one would follow that success because there can be only one such game on market" and no one could outpolish blizzard back in 2004 (btw turned out no one could so far)

It really was all one the surface. - Make diku MMO  (e.g. with progression addiction play) which was actually fun to play and had low barrier for entry, -you will capture entirely new market .  WoW did exactly that and made itself "first MMO" for tens of millions

[Xuri]

I think MMO developers have lost view of the fact that (at least in my opinion) the reason people play MMOs over the long term is the other players.   Maybe it isn't what gets them into the game, and maybe it isn't what gets them lots of pre-release press, but any MMO I've played for more than a few months, I stayed for the people at least as much as, and usually more than, the game.  So, when something like TOR comes out, it can be a perfectly fun game to play, but that isn't enough by itself to stay with an MMO.   Obviously you have to get that right too, but being a good game just plain isn't enough in the MMO space.  I don't really have a solution for this, but if I'm playing MMO A, and MMO B comes out and I like it slightly more, but I've already invested 2000 hours in MMO A and have a huge base of friends to play with in it, I'm not switching to what I acknowledge is a better game.  Every new MMO release is pretty hamstrung by this.

This. A thousand times.

[eldaec]

Playing swtor story shit with a friend was pretty damn good.

Problem was the process to find strangers to play with was designed by a sociopath, group content had absurdly restrictive level ranges and side kicking was pvp-only because EA hate fun.