SWTOR Goes F2P in the Fall

[eldaec]

That's my favorite part! The parts that ARE like KotOR (you know, the story shit) are the parts that most people seem to think were good (if a bit crazy to think was sustainable sub-wise for non-me players once they finish a storyline or two without major content releases in a timely manner).

Did anyone except you finish more than a couple of storylines?

I sure as hell couldn't, because of all the crappy bits that were nothing like Kotor.

[Sjofn]

Ingmar is only two storylines behind me, I believe. Number-wise, anyway. I've finished everyone except the BH and SW. I think Ingmar has all the Empire classes to do.

EDIT: Wait, I lied, I think he still needs to finish the consular, too. But yes, I know I am way out of the ordinary on this front, which is why I said "non-me players." It helps that I don't hate DIKU stuff (after all, I leveled an ungodly number of alts in WoW too) and am pretty good at bullrushing through parts that are less fun to get to the parts that are. If I like the combat well enough (and I do like SWTOR's combat), repeating content doesn't bug me usually.

[eldaec]

Which implies that even if you halved the grind to 50, thereby making all the trash quests optional, this game still would still have enough content for someone married to Sjofn to last a full year.

The Kotor model was totally viable, if they had followed through with it.

[Kageru]

I'd be somewhat sad to see group content go, it is meant to be a multi-player game after all and that should be the small group challenge mode. It will be interesting to see if GW2's approach where dungeon completion is entirely optional in terms of gear progression and personal story works.

The test for a post WoW subscription MMO will be whether Blizzard can continue WoW's insane profit generation with Titan.

[Sjofn]

Which implies that even if you halved the grind to 50, thereby making all the trash quests optional, this game still would still have enough content for someone married to Sjofn to last a full year.

The Kotor model was totally viable, if they had followed through with it.

Really the worst part about SWTOR for me is how it has utterly ruined duoing in other games. TSW is driving me goddamn crazy even though it is no worse than every non-SWTOR game I've duoed in. Well, except for their fucking idiotic insistence on solo instances, that's a very special TSW-only sort of derp.

Well, I guess it also ruined "story" to some degree. My TSW character having precisely zero agency in her "conversations" with quest givers is also driving me crazy. But I'm also aware that's hard to do if you want to churn out the story shit in a timely manner, so I try not to knock it TOO hard for that. Especially since I like that TSW knows story matters and at least puts a good effort into it. Seriously, if TSW came out before SWTOR but after Cataclysm, I probably would've been fapping over it almost as hard as Falconeer does.

[Mattemeo]

The test for a post WoW subscription MMO will be whether Blizzard can continue WoW's insane profit generation with Titan.

They won't. WoW was and still is (whether it's bleeding players at any given time or not) a phenomenon that won't be repeated by another DIKU MMO, if any type of MMO. Not even one of Blizzard's making.
All Titan will do is succeed in poaching players from Blizzard's own subscription base; players who will inevitably crawl back to WoW within a year. Titan will remain profitable, of this I don't doubt - but the facts are Blizzard are considerably better at pinching the pennies when it comes to Titan's budget and don't have the savage IP overhead that SWtOR labour under, and therefore the game won't represent any sort of loss. But it will never break WoW. I highly doubt it will get even half of WoW's peak subs numbers - and it certainly won't maintain them.

EA's biggest mistake, and one they have continually made over and over since 2005 or so, is imagining WoW's success is replicatable. And so they make unholy, unreasonable demands of the small team Dev teams they buy out to bring in numbers that are simply unfeasible, instead of being happy with an easily maintained pre-WoW subscription base. You know, back when UO, DAoC, EQ and the like were considered a license for printing money with player bases significantly less than half a million. That EA are so slow on the uptake when it comes to a new era of MMO monetising is entirely unsurprising. I wonder if Blizzard have a contingency plan on releasing Titan as F2P straight out of the gates...?

[Nevermore]

Really the worst part about SWTOR for me is how it has utterly ruined duoing in other games. TSW is driving me goddamn crazy even though it is no worse than every non-SWTOR game I've duoed in. Well, except for their fucking idiotic insistence on solo instances, that's a very special TSW-only sort of derp.

Well, I guess it also ruined "story" to some degree. My TSW character having precisely zero agency in her "conversations" with quest givers is also driving me crazy. But I'm also aware that's hard to do if you want to churn out the story shit in a timely manner, so I try not to knock it TOO hard for that. Especially since I like that TSW knows story matters and at least puts a good effort into it. Seriously, if TSW came out before SWTOR but after Cataclysm, I probably would've been fapping over it almost as hard as Falconeer does.

If TSW was out before TOR I'd be in the same boat.  Really, the whole standing mute while the NPC monologues thing is the only really irritating part of how Funcom did the story.  I mean, at least have my character be involved with some gestures or facial expressions instead of just standing there like a manikin.  

On the other hand, TSW's skill system really drew me in with its flexibility.  It pretty much drove a stake into any remaining thought of playing GW2 anytime in the near future, because it really crystallizes how much I hate what Arenanet did with their skills.

[Sjofn]

My original TSW character, for some reason, had her mouth slightly open all the time in those cutscenes. It's hard for me to be attached to a slack-jawed, glassy-eyed mute, I tell you what.

I agree that TSW's skill system is pretty neat once you start to get a handle on it. The thing I love most about it, though, is something I rather liked about GW1: Lots of skills, only X number of slots to use them. Button bloat is my #1 gameplay peeve in MMOs. 

[UnSub]

In other news, Bioware insider learns that listening to fans is probably a retarded way to design games. http://blogs.bettor.com/Anonymous-Bioware-Insider-blames-fans-for-SWTOR-Video-Games-Update-a173317

If EA / BioWare listened to the fans heavily when making SWOR, it's their own fault.

The fans will have some valid points, but unless the title is 90% finished and they've been able to play through the whole game, how applicable those points are to the scheme of things is questionable.

[palmer_eldritch]

That "Bioware insider" is an anonymous poster calling themselves auto34058432 in the comments section of this news story: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/17/swtor-executive-producer-leaves-bioware-new-layoffs-rumored/

The "story" was picked up by Gamertech, and spread from there, including to the blog linked earlier to in this thread.

This guy may be a brilliant coder but he's a stranger to the English language, or any other language which uses capital letters at the beginning of sentences.

I know many won't believe me. but, I work at Bioware. best part for me is coming here to read fans replies. I won't tell you much and I don't care if you believe me. So here is "what's" going on were I work.

I also don't much care if anyone believes him or not but fuck me, gaming journalism is shit.

[Paelos]

They won't. WoW was and still is (whether it's bleeding players at any given time or not) a phenomenon that won't be repeated by another DIKU MMO, if any type of MMO. Not even one of Blizzard's making.

We (wrongly) believed before WoW was released that the highest numbers a MMO could expect would be in the hundreds of thousands. There are billions of people on this planet who are becoming more connected every year. I don't think it's impossible to believe that 20M of them could play the next big thing.

Never say never.

[Amaron]

I'm failing to see how it was more like KotOR than WoW in any way, shape, or form.

I think he meant to say that a bunch of whiney tards asked for stupid stuff so they had to waste time instead of polishing the WoW bits.

[Rokal]

They won't. WoW was and still is (whether it's bleeding players at any given time or not) a phenomenon that won't be repeated by another DIKU MMO, if any type of MMO. Not even one of Blizzard's making.

We (wrongly) believed before WoW was released that the highest numbers a MMO could expect would be in the hundreds of thousands. There are billions of people on this planet who are becoming more connected every year. I don't think it's impossible to believe that 20M of them could play the next big thing.

Never say never.

I'd also point out that we know next to nothing about Titan. Making predictions about how well it can do at this stage is a waste of time. For all we know it won't be a DIKU MMO or even a subscription game.

[Ratman_tf]

EA's biggest mistake, and one they have continually made over and over since 2005 or so, is imagining WoW's success is replicatable. And so they make unholy, unreasonable demands of the small team Dev teams they buy out to bring in numbers that are simply unfeasible, instead of being happy with an easily maintained pre-WoW subscription base. You know, back when UO, DAoC, EQ and the like were considered a license for printing money with player bases significantly less than half a million. That EA are so slow on the uptake when it comes to a new era of MMO monetising is entirely unsurprising. I wonder if Blizzard have a contingency plan on releasing Titan as F2P straight out of the gates...?

I have no doubt that Diablo 3's RMAH is part of them testing the waters.

[Amaron]

The most amusing thing in those comments was this:

Also from what I have heard in the halls, Starwars Galaxies was shut down due to the fact are talks with LA,EA suits ecouraged the new guy at LA to increase the licensing fee at renewal time. it was a move to remove any direct competiton to TOR.

If that's true, then talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[Kageru]

The test for a post WoW subscription MMO will be whether Blizzard can continue WoW's insane profit generation with Titan.

They won't. WoW was and still is (whether it's bleeding players at any given time or not) a phenomenon that won't be repeated by another DIKU MMO, if any type of MMO. Not even one of Blizzard's making.

Arguable, especially since we have no idea what Titan is. I would expect it's pretty mature but with no real challengers and WoW still printing money-hats they can just sit on it until they declare wow "done" and Titan the successor. We'll find out for sure only when it releases.

I would have thought it a safe bet before I saw Diablo 3 and the questionable design decisions.

Blaming the users for SWTOR failing is amazingly ridiculous when it is such a bioware game. I can imagine the fans complaining where the story elements, like companion death, conflict with the MMO aspects but that's not the cause of the problem.

[koro]

The most amusing thing in those comments was this:

Also from what I have heard in the halls, Starwars Galaxies was shut down due to the fact are talks with LA,EA suits ecouraged the new guy at LA to increase the licensing fee at renewal time. it was a move to remove any direct competiton to TOR.

If that's true, then talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

If that's true, then why gun for the already all-but-dead SWG and not the much newer and more financially successful (I assume?) Clone Wars Adventures, also from SOE?

I think a much more likely scenario is that the powers that be at SOE knew that SWG wasn't going to ever really improve without some serious cash thrown its way and essentially a re- re-launch, opting instead to just let its piddling revenue stream die off and keep on with the product that's actually pulling in money. Not to mention Sony and SOE was undergoing a bit of a restructuring around that time, which would have just made the decision to cut out the dead weight just that more palatable.

[Amaron]

I can still picture them doing it.  They were having delusions of grandeur.  It's not a big leap for them to imagine SOE polishing up SWG if SWTOR took off.

[Cadaverine]

They were having delusions of grandeur. 

 


The main problem I had with TOR was that, as I leveled, I felt like I was actually getting weaker, rather than more powerful.  It was much more pronounced with my Sorcerer than my BH, but by the time I hit the mid-30's fighting mobs had just become a chore.

Once it goes F2P, I might pick it back up again to finish the class stories, but the thought that I'd have to slog my way through the planetary stuff to keep myself at, or above, the level requirements for the class stories is a big turn off.

[Phred]

If that's true, then why gun for the already all-but-dead SWG and not the much newer and more financially successful (I assume?) Clone Wars Adventures, also from SOE?

Maybe because the CWA license isn't subject to renegotiations at the moment? Or maybe the fees went up and you don't know it? How would you as there is no subscription?

[eldaec]

I'm failing to see how it was more like KotOR than WoW in any way, shape, or form.

I think he meant to say that a bunch of whiney tards asked for stupid stuff so they had to waste time instead of polishing the WoW bits.

But they didn't do that.

The only thing they developed from mid beta onward was the wow crap. There has been no post launch addition to the kotoresque stuff at all.

[Lantyssa]

The Kotor model was totally viable, if they had followed through with it.

It was.  I'd have made it through all eight characters if I didn't have to put up with the WoW bullshit and extraneous non-story quests.  I only made it through 2.75 characters, and that's because I had a duo for half of that.

[Lantyssa]

My original TSW character, for some reason, had her mouth slightly open all the time in those cutscenes. It's hard for me to be attached to a slack-jawed, glassy-eyed mute, I tell you what.

Illuminati.  She was under the influence.  Of a few things.

[Sky]

I'd have made it through all eight characters if I didn't have to put up with the WoW bullshit

I would agree with this, though it was the name ganking that ended my run prematurely.

[Mrbloodworth]

I liked SWTOR well enough. Thought it was a well put together game, with a great setting. Awesome artwork.

I'm just burned out personally on this kind of game. Tab target, 11billion "skills" that are just numbers, no utility. and Quest hub after quest hub.

But that's me, and that's personally. The only thing that REALLY broke my heart about the title, is when I found out that flash points beyond the Black Talon, were not like the Black Talon. BT was a step ahead of other games. They dropped that ball. That was really the point where I hovered, and then clicked, the unsubscribe button.

EDIT: Oh, and Spacefox. I mean, Space combat.

[Rokal]

The only thing that REALLY broke my heart about the title, is when I found out that flash points beyond the Black Talon, were not like the Black Talon. BT was a step ahead of other games. They dropped that ball. That was really the point where I hovered, and then clicked, the unsubscribe button.

There are quite a few FPs later on that are like Black Talon. I do wish they were all story-driven in the same way, but at least it's not an anomaly for dungeon content in the game.

[Mrbloodworth]

To many "Not BT" in between for me to care. I know where to go if I want Mobs standing around in a dungeon. But I do not want that.

[Amaron]

The only thing they developed from mid beta onward was the wow crap. There has been no post launch addition to the kotoresque stuff at all.

Why do you say mid-beta?  He said from the day they opened the forums.  Pretty sure they opened the normal forums way before alpha even.

[eldaec]

I'm saying the guy is talking out of his backside.

[Amaron]

I'm saying the guy is talking out of his backside.

Ok?  That has nothing to do with what you said before though.   The forums probably went up the day the game was announced.

[Kageru]

"they opened the official forums on September 12, 2011 where as the game came out three months later on December 20, 2011."

Apparently not?

[Merusk]

Totally not.

Anyone that uninformed doesn't have a clue what was going on in the company he was working for.   The forums were up before the 'reserve your guild name' promo which was March 2011.

At best he means they lifted the NDA, but even then he'd be wrong.  That was November 18th.

[Phred]

Totally not.

Anyone that uninformed doesn't have a clue what was going on in the company he was working for.   The forums were up before the 'reserve your guild name' promo which was March 2011.

At best he means they lifted the NDA, but even then he'd be wrong.  That was November 18th.

Wasn't there a general Bioware board that fans posted on before the official boards went up?

[Evildrider]

I made my ToR Forum account in 6/09. 

[Amaron]

It was the reporter who made the statement about when the forums came out.

Fans have called him out and claim that Bioware is just pointing fingers for their own failure as they opened the official forums on September 12, 2011 where as the game came out three months later on December 20, 2011. It is hard to believe that three months worth of fan feedback could influence the game that was in development since 2006.

I'd guess he's talking about specific forums independent of the normal Bioware forums.  People have been bitching about Kotor as an MMO on the Kotor forums before Bioware even had the license.