SWTOR Goes F2P in the Fall

[Amaron]

group content had absurdly restrictive level ranges

Yea that always made me boggle.  Add uninspiring loot rewards to that list.  Throwing in all those heroics and having them all be mediocre was a massive waste of money.

[eldaec]

Daily quests with token currencies to buy shit based on the assumption of 43578 run throughs can eat a dick.

Best I don't even start on the subject of bind-on-equip.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think this whole thread can be summed up by something many of us have been saying for a while now.

We need NEW forms of MMO's, rehashing the same thing, even if done better, is old hat. We have games that excel at that type of MMO. Its time for something new.  New combat like the action type cropping up, or the FPS type. Less text, and more Voice overs. Less guided experiences. I think we have reached the end of the Gamey worlds. Its time to go back to the worldly worlds.

[Riggswolfe]

The main problem I had with TOR was that, as I leveled, I felt like I was actually getting weaker, rather than more powerful.  It was much more pronounced with my Sorcerer than my BH, but by the time I hit the mid-30's fighting mobs had just become a chore.

I was sure there was a post shortly after the game released where someone said this exact thing then said they were one of the testers telling Bioware to make it harder. That wasn't you was it?

It was actually Caldeverine you quoted there, not me. And I was one of the voices in the beta forums telling them to stop jacking up the difficulty because it was losing the Star Wars feel I wanted. I wanted to be a Jedi, not a youngling.

[Lantyssa]

In other words, I think we can argue all day about this and that which mechanics work in WoW and don't work in WoW, or SWTOR, or whatever release, but I don't think there is a formula that exists that is actually going to lead to a sure fire success, you'll need some luck and circumstance that you just can't build into the development process.

You already suggested the answer to the problem.  1) Make a good game.  It doesn't have to be perfect, but it is important.  2) Understand you are making a social game.  Grouping, Guilds, Activites, etc.

These need to be intuitive and easy to use.  Anything you do that restricts two or more people from interacting in an activity needs to be questioned as to why.  Do whatever you can to let them do things together.

SWToR got the feel of duos and dueling conversation choices right.  GW2 gets the dealing with others in the world and (mostly) auto-leveling right.  TSW gets dungeon runs right.  WoW got the Group Finder right.  SWG got the cantinas (until hologrinding; forced mind healing questionable), housing, and cities (mostly) right.

Why can't anyone put these all together?  They're making an MMO.  Dealing with other people should have as much attention paid to it as the entirety of the Game portions of its design.

[01101010]

Odd as this sounds, I kinda miss housing. SWTOR had a little feel of it, but it felt completely isolated from others. I loved EQ2's housing concept. And I was of the ilk that thought housing was pointless a few short years ago.

[Malakili]

You already suggested the answer to the problem.  1) Make a good game.  It doesn't have to be perfect, but it is important.  2) Understand you are making a social game.  Grouping, Guilds, Activites, etc.

These need to be intuitive and easy to use.  Anything you do that restricts two or more people from interacting in an activity needs to be questioned as to why.  Do whatever you can to let them do things together.

SWToR got the feel of duos and dueling conversation choices right.  GW2 gets the dealing with others in the world and (mostly) auto-leveling right.  TSW gets dungeon runs right.  WoW got the Group Finder right.  SWG got the cantinas (until hologrinding; forced mind healing questionable), housing, and cities (mostly) right.

Why can't anyone put these all together?  They're making an MMO.  Dealing with other people should have as much attention paid to it as the entirety of the Game portions of its design.

I agree with everything you've said,  I just think that is possible that someone could nail every one of those bullet points, and still not be a sure fire success.  You still need to break that barrier of "Is this game *enough* better than what I am playing to start over from scratch socially and in terms of the actual game"  People who are parts of big gaming communities who will adopt entire new games as a community probably have an advantage here and might switch easier, but I suspect that isn't the majority of people.

[Mattemeo]

SWToR got the feel of duos and dueling conversation choices right.  GW2 gets the dealing with others in the world and (mostly) auto-leveling right.  TSW gets dungeon runs right.  WoW got the Group Finder right.  SWG got the cantinas (until hologrinding; forced mind healing questionable), housing, and cities (mostly) right.

I would happily rate CoX's base/lair system high above any other MMO's efforts at housing, even when it wasn't actually housing at all. Creating a base was an amazing metagame in and of itself when you invested yourself in it.
I never experienced SWG but the housing (from what I'd seen) reminded me of DAoC's which was pretty good but implemented poorly.

[Ingmar]

In case you're still subbed but not checking the other subforum and care about such things, there's apparently a new world event starting today. Scavenger hunt something something.

And yeah CoH bases were pretty sweet even if ours looked like an episode of Hoarders.

[Lantyssa]

SWG's housing was superior, but  CoX was pretty good.  Other than the grinding required to really outfit a base.  And that there was no personal housing.

[Mrbloodworth]

SWG's system required every item to have a ( mostly )unique model and texture, and that was fine, as the INV was also 3D.  Many Current MMO's just rely on shared icons, as the items do not have a physical model.

But that's how/why you could place every item in the "world".

It was impressive.

[Venkman]

SWG housing was great, especially once they made it easier to move things around. This was greatly improved by the city building. However, both were better ideas than they were implementations, acceptable to the players at the time for the same reason so many broken things were acceptable: If you could figure things out, figure out ways around the broken bits, and were into the idea of a virtual lifestyle investment, SWG was your game.

That's something SOE completely miscalculated later in the life of the game.

The genre needs to keep dabbling in "new", and maybe it will if TSW turns out successful in the old EQ1/UO/AC1 model of slow growth over a long haul.

[Sjofn]

If I could just decorate my SWTOR ship, I'd be pretty content. I found the CoX base thing a little too overwhelming and didn't play with it much. I liked having my own house in DAoC but I understand that all the sprawl made it sort of blah.

Never did get around to buying a house in LotRO.

[Ingmar]

LOTRO houses are basically the exact same thing as DAOC houses, but without the merchants.

EDIT:

Don't think this got linked yet, the Q&A on Friday was all about F2P stuff, so putting it here instead of the subforum thread:

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-free-play-edition

[Venkman]

If I could just decorate my SWTOR ship, I'd be pretty content.

If I could just have flown my ship, that'd have been a big start. The minigames were fun, and it allowed them to check off the "we have space <something>" box for launch features. But it was by no means "space flight".

But in terms of housing, SWTOR has no more need for it than WoW does, so I didn't miss it.

[Mattemeo]

If I could just decorate my SWTOR ship, I'd be pretty content.

Yeah, I'm still hoping that's something they'll consider in the not-too-distant future (read: a future where I'm still interested in playing). The trouble is at the moment, your ship in SWtOR is simply an instance; same as any other area in the game, which is why you occasionally see messages in /s or /1 and there's usually a number of players 'in' your ship.

The other thing I find that stops it from feeling like home is having to share it with certain Companions (or housepests like in the Consular storyline). I know there's a deep level of dislike for some; Skadge from the Bounty Hunter roster is a common complaint. Most people seem to want to show him the airlock.

[Ingmar]

I am nearly certain that at some point they said they were planning on adding ship customization. No idea if those plans have had to change with all the other changes, of course.

What I would love to see re: companions and ships is some Skyrim-type wandering around and doing stuff. Would help it feel more lived in.

[Sjofn]

The companions on my ship don't bug me, 'cause they're theoretically traveling with me. I'd kick Corso off if I could, but he doesn't make the ship feel less like "mine." I'd like it if they'd roam around more though, yeah, like how they do in ME3. That is totally never going to happen though. :P

[koro]

LOTRO houses are basically the exact same thing as DAOC houses, but without the merchants.

EDIT:

Don't think this got linked yet, the Q&A on Friday was all about F2P stuff, so putting it here instead of the subforum thread:

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-free-play-edition

I notice in the "what new content we're bringing out" parts, nothing is ever mentioned about new actual story stuff. You know, the stuff the majority of people actually bought the game for.

 

[Rokal]

I am nearly certain that at some point they said they were planning on adding ship customization. No idea if those plans have had to change with all the other changes, of course.

I would think it would be more likely than ever, now that they can monetize decorations or the amount of stuff you can have etc. It's no longer about whether the feature is sticky enough to keep people subscribed. If people are willing to spend money on something in the store, it's worth making.

[Ingmar]

LOTRO houses are basically the exact same thing as DAOC houses, but without the merchants.

EDIT:

Don't think this got linked yet, the Q&A on Friday was all about F2P stuff, so putting it here instead of the subforum thread:

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-free-play-edition

I notice in the "what new content we're bringing out" parts, nothing is ever mentioned about new actual story stuff. You know, the stuff the majority of people actually bought the game for.

 

Yeah I noticed that too. Makes me wonder if that part of the team is in disarray after the layoffs.

[Sjofn]

LOTRO houses are basically the exact same thing as DAOC houses, but without the merchants.

EDIT:

Don't think this got linked yet, the Q&A on Friday was all about F2P stuff, so putting it here instead of the subforum thread:

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-free-play-edition

I notice in the "what new content we're bringing out" parts, nothing is ever mentioned about new actual story stuff. You know, the stuff the majority of people actually bought the game for.

 

Yes, which makes me a bit irritated, because they're missing the damn reason anyone is playing their game. I'm sure they think of flashpoints and operations as story shit, of course, but that's not the main focus for most of them, and I SUSPECT most new ones are going to be light on story since they're something we're supposed to repeat. That's not bad, really, because I'm sure people prefer their flashpoints be that way after the first or second time through, but it does leave a gaping story-shaped hole in their content updates.

That's the main thing I feared going into this thing, alas.

[Lantyssa]

I notice in the "what new content we're bringing out" parts, nothing is ever mentioned about new actual story stuff. You know, the stuff the majority of people actually bought the game for.

All those fans wanting the game to be more KotOR-like are what ruined it, doncha know?  Story is the first thing to go!

[koro]

Oh, and apparently that Friday Q&A is also the last Friday Q&A they're doing; they're discontinuing the weekly thing so they can focus more on being open and communicative with greater red name presence on the forums in general instead of just one blog post a week. I'll believe that  when I see it, considering Bioware's communication has been awful-to-nonexistent since beta.

[Sjofn]

Ugh, I prefered the Q&A thing because I don't like looking for dev posts when I am sure a bunch of them are full of nothing. I like all my nothing in one easy-to-read, easy-to-skim post. 

[Kageru]

They're going to have enough work on their hands converting the thing to run using a f2p cash-shop. I don't imagine you'll see new story content until that's done, working and attracting enough revenue to fund another big chunk of story content.

[Venkman]

Story stuff is the most expensive, even more so than TSW due to the branching. If they ever actually can afford new real stories, expect it to be all droids and wookiees who don't have SAG rate cards

[Mattemeo]

They're going to have enough work on their hands converting the thing to run using a f2p cash-shop. I don't imagine you'll see new story content until that's done, working and attracting enough revenue to fund another big chunk of story content.

I dunno, when Costume Packs first came on the scene in CoX, the developers were pretty open about it essentially helping to fund the next chapter/update. I know running/development costs on CoX were/are probably a fraction of SWtOR's if they're still keeping the voice talent around, but it was both great to see as an act of transparency and as a player of the game that you were literally keeping it going in that way.

I don't mind cash-shops so long as I don't feel like I'm being ripped off for my fluff or just being used for cheap bux (like EVERYTHING EVER in WoW).

[UnSub]

Story stuff is the most expensive, even more so than TSW due to the branching. If they ever actually can afford new real stories, expect it to be all droids and wookiees who don't have SAG rate cards

Coming soon to SWOR: Silentus, planet of the deaf-mutes.  

I actually think MMORPGs have finished their golden age - there have been too many failed projects and the audience looks to be moving on to titles where they can drop in for a while, play a game or two, achieve something, chat in the lobby and then quit.

Regardless of GW2's quality, one of its key advantages is that it isn't reliant on sub fees to measure its success. And, that said, I'm sure GW2's player numbers will dive after launch too.

[Nevermore]

Story stuff is the most expensive, even more so than TSW due to the branching. If they ever actually can afford new real stories, expect it to be all droids and wookiees who don't have SAG rate cards

The 'branching' is actually mostly smoke and mirrors.  Smoke and mirrors I enjoy mind you, but still just an illusion.  The story itself doesn't really diverge other than at the end you'll get different emails to give you an indication of whatever consequences there were for your choice.  Also, you'll notice a lot of response dialogs are reused.

[Amaron]

Decorating the ship would be fairly cool and would have been cheap to implement from a coding standpoint.  Not to mention having cutscenes there would make decorating worthwhile even if nobody ever saw it.  They could have done a lot of stuff with the ships without even getting into flight sim territory.

[Zetor]

Yea, most of the story branching / choices that I remember were fake bioware-choice stuff. There were MAYBE a handful of choices in the storylines I played through (trooper, consular and each planet) that I remember having any significant impact beyond companion influence / ls/ds points. If anything, keeping the same 16 voice actors on retainer to record player voices is going to be a big deal compared to TSW and its mute protagonist.

Besides, didn't they lay off a lot of their team recently? That's also why their "we'll crank out content EVEN FASTER" promise in the f2p announcement struck me as odd.

[Ingmar]

Having gone through planets multiple times, there are actually more spots where choosing A/B or dark/light actually changes parts of missions. Not hugely, but there's a number of spots where you pick between "kill all these guys or gather these items" and such. More than I thought there were after one playthrough, and it crops up in the story missions as well as the main planetary missions. The random side missions, not so much.

Also the voice actor thing is worse than you think - they have to have a set of them for every language they translate the game into! Didn't really occur to me until I ran across the French version of the world event trailer that came out today.

[angry.bob]

Having gone through planets multiple times, there are actually more spots where choosing A/B or dark/light actually changes parts of missions. Not hugely, but there's a number of spots where you pick between "kill all these guys or gather these items" and such. More than I thought there were after one playthrough, and it crops up in the story missions as well as the main planetary missions. The random side missions, not so much.

Having gone through the Republic and Sith almost sixteen times with my kids, there are actually a lot ofdifferences in the choice, most minor, some pretty major. The one thing that stays constant is that none of the choices fuck you at the end. mostly they're just changes to the cutscenes at the break points before fighting. And yes, my kids love the shit out of this game and it's literally all we've done since classes ended back the first week of May.

[Zetor]

Yea, I remember a few, typically the end mission of each planet (ie. dealing with the superweapon du jour) had a choice where you could destroy the thing or take control of it, but the missions still played out in the same areas - only you had to click things instead of kill things, like you said. But still, choices boiled down to 'accept this mission' / 'accept this mission while rolling eyes' / 'screw you, quest giver' for the bulk of the content, and 'light side choice where you probably have to fight more stuff' / 'dark side choice which probably makes it easy for you' for pivotal moments. There was one exception that stood out for me, the sith sorcerer dude you can save (as two consequent LS actions) and will help you against one of the planet big bads.

Same with FPs, there is typically one 'choice' in each non-Esseles/BT FP that gives light/dark side points and keeps alive / kills an enemy group... and sometimes there are shortcuts you can take if you have a high level in a craft skill (though that's not really a story choice per se)