Frogdogs score!

[Nebu]

Fresh lvl 50 are like lvl 10 with the lvl 50 bolster buff, fresh meat for my scoundrel.   

Everyone is fresh meat for scoundrels.  The class is stupid overpowered in pvp when geared.  There are three scoundrels on my server that routinely do 350k damage in the warfronts with the next closest person being in the 180k range.  I have nearly full champion gear and a scoundrel can kill me shortly after stun wears off.  That's about 15k HP in 6-8s

[DraconianOne]

Everyone is fresh meat for scoundrels.  The class is stupid overpowered in pvp when geared. 

[nurtsi]

Everyone is fresh meat for scoundrels.  The class is stupid overpowered in pvp when geared.  There are three scoundrels on my server that routinely do 350k damage in the warfronts with the next closest person being in the 180k range.  I have nearly full champion gear and a scoundrel can kill me shortly after stun wears off.  That's about 15k HP in 6-8s

What do they actually do? I'm IA and yet to find my can of whoop-ass. I'm only lvl 27 though. I can just shiv and backstab during the 4s stun I have.

[Nebu]

What do they actually do? I'm IA and yet to find my can of whoop-ass. I'm only lvl 27 though. I can just shiv and backstab during the 4s stun I have.

1) Get to 50
2) Get your Champion set
3) Determine a solid rotation
4) Stun and burst people down.  The forums have all sorts of posts of scoundrels doing 600k+ in single target damage.

[DraconianOne]

What do they actually do? I'm IA and yet to find my can of whoop-ass. I'm only lvl 27 though. I can just shiv and backstab during the 4s stun I have.

As made popular during a certain cantina scene, Scoundrels shoot first. 

Faceitousness aside, at level 36, Scoundrels get an ability called Shoot First which is a traditional, behind-the-target-in-stealth opener and can be talented to incap the target. The 31 point Scrapper talent is Flechette round which a) doesn't break stealth and b) buffs Shoot First so from level 40, the opening rotation from stealth after popping a relic and adrenal will be Flechette Round, Shoot First followed quickly by Cheap Shot, Back Blast and Vital Shot.

You'll have substitute your own Operative skills in for the above.

[zardoz]

Everyone is fresh meat for scoundrels.  The class is stupid overpowered in pvp when geared.  There are three scoundrels on my server that routinely do 350k damage in the warfronts with the next closest person being in the 180k range.  I have nearly full champion gear and a scoundrel can kill me shortly after stun wears off.  That's about 15k HP in 6-8s

What do they actually do? I'm IA and yet to find my can of whoop-ass. I'm only lvl 27 though. I can just shiv and backstab during the 4s stun I have.

You need a couple of more lvls then you can turn your Hidden Strike into a 3sec knockdown and after that you get access to acid blade
dot with 50% armor penetration that works with hidden strike and backstab and ignores global cd. Plus a few extras then like to add
a root to your snare or get lethality for extra 6% critical chance and so on.

lvl 50, add pvp gear and stack expertise......

Fresh lvl 50 are like lvl 10 with the lvl 50 bolster buff, fresh meat for my scoundrel.   

Everyone is fresh meat for scoundrels.  The class is stupid overpowered in pvp when geared.  There are three scoundrels on my server that routinely do 350k damage in the warfronts with the next closest person being in the 180k range.  I have nearly full champion gear and a scoundrel can kill me shortly after stun wears off.  That's about 15k HP in 6-8s

Well it depands on the team. Sure I can post excactly one screenshot as you describe.




But still we lost. If you get in a team that has more 50th, the difference ist not that much bigger.





IMO a lvl 50 bracket will fix most of that stuff, ok after all gear up........

[Nebu]

Zardoz: I'm in full champion gear and, as a sniper, I can NEVER produce numbers like that.  If I shoot non-stop with zero deaths, I can muster a score close to 300k.  I can't touch the kills/damage that an equally geared scoundrel can. Ever.  Are you suggesting that I always finish second to a scoundrel in the tables just because they are a better player?   Scoundrel is the only class that not only outperforms me, but they do it consistently by a HUGE margin.

[zardoz]

Zardoz: I'm in full champion gear and, as a sniper, I can NEVER produce numbers like that.  If I shoot non-stop with zero deaths, I can muster a score close to 300k.  I can't touch the kills/damage that an equally geared scoundrel can. Ever.  Are you suggesting that I always finish second to a scoundrel in the tables just because they are a better player?   Scoundrel is the only class that not only outperforms me, but they do it consistently by a HUGE margin.

I wish I could say that but today was the first time I saw a lvl 50 sniper on the enemy team.

On my server I have bounty hunters and sith inquisitor that can produce the same numbers as I do.
Sometimes I finish the map at 3 or 4 dmg rank with ~300k dmg. Maybe you should try Lethality skilltree and see how this works for you...

Oh and yes our burst at last with the scrapper tree ist very high but well we are a enhanced wow rogue copy v2.0 class what do you expect from this.

[Arinon]

I've seen Sorcs pull 300k rounds now and again.  That's what I'm running so I watch for this.  That's probably tab dotting and AoE channels which aren't nearly as effective as the single target clownshoes/killjobs I see the IA classes doing.

If they are bursting down reasonably geared people in a 4 second period that obviously needs to change.  I know I've been hit with back-to-back 5k+ hits but as a softie I've been holding judgement until I have some expertise.

[Amaron]

Is the problem just the scoundrel opener?   I know all the good ones on my server but I've never been really pounded by them on my tank.   I wonder if their dps drops off after the target fails to die quick?

[caladein]

It definitely drops off after Acid Blade + Hidden Strike, but it's certainly not bad if we can squeeze a Backstab in every 15s to keep our Armor Pen buff up.  There's also the risk of the re-open with Cloaking Screen at a two minute CD talented.

[Amaron]

I tested this with the pimped out Scoundrel in my guild and he hits pretty hard but definitely a good chunk less than vs non-tank classes.   My additional health pool means I'm only half dead when he finishes the combo.   After the combo it's far more manageable.    Vanishing to do it all over again is   though.   Nerfs will happen so enjoy scoundrel/operative now.

[zardoz]

I tested this with the pimped out Scoundrel in my guild and he hits pretty hard but definitely a good chunk less than vs non-tank classes.   My additional health pool means I'm only half dead when he finishes the combo.   After the combo it's far more manageable.    Vanishing to do it all over again is   though.   Nerfs will happen so enjoy scoundrel/operative now.

Well I play swtor only for the free month so nerfs want hurt me and as a scoundrel you can allways go healer and still make some dmg.


After respec yesterday to sawbones with 170k dmg and 360k healing:




Oh and some bh, jedi sentinal with 500k, some with 600k+ http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=136113&page=1



In the end, I still prefer pvp in fps like battlefield 3. It's enjoyable in small doses here but nothing more................

[Falconeer]

Yeah, you wanna know what fucking freaking sucks, and you should never ever make one if you like PvP unless you are seriously into masochism? A Vanguard.

Bioware people, I have insults in multiple languages for you.

[Ingmar]

Fordel has been kicking ass doing the protecting thing on his. You have a role as a tank in PVP in SWTOR, which is pretty unusual for an MMO.

[Zetor]

Yep. Vanguards probably do the least damage/burst out of all classes (even among tanks - jedi guardians can do monstrous damage, and shadows can gank), but they're freaking hard to kill. Putting guard on people + taunting / aoe taunting enemies is where it's at, along with using the various cc options available. You don't have the burst to kill a healer that's any good, but you can make his life a living hell -- while protecting the squishies on your own team.

[Falconeer]

"Freaking hard to kill"?

Let's say I'll get back to you in a couple of weeks. I am not sure what are you playing but I usually die in a matter of seconds, while watching my character spasming for this or that CC.

You had an awesome role as an anti-magic tank in Rift too up to a certain point, but casters where complaining so they changed that. I am not against specialist roles in PvP games, but I really have a hard time finding any real use for this class so far that can be in any way rewarding or recognizable. It really doesn't feel like they get any significant survivability option, especially considering the lack of anti-cc tools and the patheticness of the self healing things.

That said, still working on it. More comments when fully PvP geared.

EDIT: Another funny thing is that when I play full DPS just because I am very frustrated and want to dish out some rage I easily end up in the top brackets for damage in my team most of the times. Which says a lot about how many poor players are around these days.

[kildorn]

Vanguards/Powertechs are a total bitch to kill. You can assist train them down like anyone else, but as far as "if I'm going to shoot someone with grav rounds", the answer is "and they're going to DIE" unless it's a Vanguard/PT. At which point they're going to giggle madly at me.

[Fordel]

Are you tank specced? IE: Shield Specialist ?

Or did you spec the Vanguard DPS tree? IE: Tactics?


Tactics is pretty much a load of shit atm, it's a bunch of pressure and mobility with no real kick to back it up. Like you are fishing for high impact bolt crits every 15 seconds, WOOO big time burst :P


Shield Spec is working fine as far as I can tell, it's not OP and not UP. It has a job and it's useful in every scenario I've run so far. We'll never do the damage some other specs push out but we can survive and protect against things no one else can too. Don't try to be a lone ranger or anything though, leave that to the Stealthers and Ranged DPS with heals.

The short coming of the Tanky Vanguard in pvp, is once your IN a fight, you are IN IT, the end. You have no real escape unless it's huttball and you can storm 3 levels away. Don't even bother trying to run, it's not like you can 'heal up' behind a corner anyways. Like yea, if you can LoS enemy damage, go for it, but its usually best to just stay in the fight. Like half my medals in any match are "you lived through 5 normal healthbars of life you crazy bastard".


Your not going to light the world on fire with your burst either as a tank vanguard, but its usually enough to finish something off. Also don't try to solo a healer 1v1, they'll just laugh at you  . You can do a good job of shutting on down, but not killing it on your own.

[Der Helm]

I ran a few warzones with some BC people, had lots of fun but had to drop out rather quickly due to real life "issues" 

If anybody is interested to do that again, I am usually game, no matter what character I am playing atm.

I even got us a free mumbleserver, pretty sure voicecom is needed for stuff like this, since entering a warzone BREAKS UP THE FUCKING GROUP and you have to REFORM IT EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Fakeedit: I don't have access to the server info from work, gonna add it later.

[Khaldun]

As a 42 scoundrel, I find I do ok but not great  in everything BUT huttball, but maybe that's because I hate huttball. But I'm specced healing at the moment, so maybe if I was dps, I'd be doing more than ok.

[Arinon]

As the gear gets better I've seen Huttball becoming mostly about who has a tank beefy enough to abuse the resolve system.  Otherwise it's who makes the most use of the pushes and pulls.  I like Huttball but will welcome a more even spread of matches down the line.

[Zetor]

Some tanks (guardians/juggernauts) are also More Equal than others for Huttball, as they have 2 charge abilities. Charge to an enemy standing on one of the platforms close to the center, charge a friend on one of the last platforms (preferably a stealther so the enemy doesn't expect it), and run for the goal!

Hoping for some better WZs myself... a 16-person 5-node domination map (Arathi Basin ++) would be good. Alderaan is nice and all, but "hold 2 of 3" has a lot less strategy than "hold 3 of 5".

[Nebu]

Here's an example of the scoundrel stuff I was talking about.  Consumables need to be toned down as does this class.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW2ZB55pF1E

Look at how fast he's blowing people up.  I can't think of another class that can do this. I also wish that I got to play against people this bad.  1 v 3 and noone stuns/roots him?  Lol

[Fordel]

Their ranged counterpart can do that, as can Commando's/Mercs.

There were only like two moments in that video where she was actually being attacked, there was almost always something else grabbing attention in the fight.



It's a lot of damage no doubt about it though. My Vanguard will never hit that hard is my guess, but my Vanguard will also come out of that full opener burn sequence with like 50-70% Hp still 

[Zetor]

The consumables are a bigger problem than the class (which is just like an ambush rogue was in vanilla wow, 1-trick ganker pony... yeah, it's not good design either way). That scoundrel stacks up at least two burst cooldowns with the red buff, the expertise stim, a damage trinket and an adrenal. All of that (except for the expertise stim which is cheap) is reusable since bioengineers get infinite adrenals. At least 4 of those buffs scale with attack power / crit / surge, which makes them even nastier.

To abuse another WOW parallel, burst cooldowns were made exclusive with each other (double trinket AP POM pyro mages) in BC or so. This means we have 2 years to go until TOR fixes this, as well...  

[Nonentity]

I go through the level 44 vendor-bought potions as a Vanguard like crazy. I consistently pull top medals, in the 8-10 range, as Shield Spec.

Obviously, the Vanguard survivability goes insanely up if you have a pocket healer you can queue with. I live 4-5 times longer if I'm guarding the healer and just keeping people off of them.

Their main job is to just keep people off of control points, and to move around like crazy. Seriously, with the charge and +30% movespeed buff, along with a single and multi target stuff, as well as harpoon on a 35s cooldown, you are a ridiculous annoyance.

And, of course, Expertise makes ALL the difference.

[tmp]

Here's an example of the scoundrel stuff I was talking about.  Consumables need to be toned down as does this class.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW2ZB55pF1E

From the relevant thread it sounds more like it's mainly the consumables, and calling for class nerf along with changing them may be premature. Trying to adjust more than one factor at once is kinda basic error.

[Zetor]

Yeah, tank specs have it (relatively) easy when it comes to medals. Guard itself can guarantee you 3-4 medals, and you can also get those with taunts (especially the aoe taunt!) without any danger of dying. The burst damage (2.5k/5k?) medals are out of reach, and so are the healing medals unless you're a dirty cheating cheater biotech.

My biggest issue as a vanguard is that I can't really burst people down (especially healers... scratch that, anyone with 5-7 points in a heal spec), but I guess that'd be crazy overpowered. I can stack my level 50 skill (+25% crit) with a damage trinket and the red buff to do some real damage, but even that comes slowly. It'd be better if I wasn't cheap enough to stock up on those red stims, but alas.  


edit: totally called the consumables thing!

[Fordel]

Yea, we are at best a damage add and a finishing move on things already nearly dead. We do just enough damage to not be totally ignored, but not much else when compared to DPS Commandos doing twice our stockstrike damage every cast. 


Not why we are in the BG though, so I'm okay with that for now.

[Sky]

Wow, the damage numbers went through the roof when she popped the red buff icon thingy. Consumables were definitely making those fights lopsided, but also a good player with a pretty awesome spec for pvp. Good stealth, good damage, healing and cc? Sheesh.

[Nebu]

Good stealth, good damage, healing and cc? Sheesh.

That's the problem right there.  Stealth is tough.  Stealth + stuns is worse.  Stealth + stuns + overpowered consumables + healing is nuts.  It's even more out of hand when you're a well-geared level 50 facing adjusted level 10's. 

Not much thought went into the whole pvp process, though I am having more fun at it than I probably should.

[Fordel]

I disagree, I think a great deal of thought went into their PvP process, it's just incredibly hard to get right and even harder to test for.

This isn't a system they just stapled on like WoW.


Does that make it great on it's own? Of course not, obviously some big issues that need to be fixed here... but someone actually gives a shit on the development side.

[Threash]

Anyone got a list of the wz medals and what they require?

[Nebu]

... but someone actually gives a shit on the development side.

If that's true, then you just made my day.